Latest / Mental Health Matters / Addressing our use of Social Media

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Addressing our use of Social Media · Mental Health Matters

• 0:04
  SPEAKER_02: Hello and welcome to Mental Health Matters with me, Dr.
• 0:06
  SPEAKER_02: Walter Tang.
• 0:07
  SPEAKER_04: And me, Judith Crozier.
• 0:09
  SPEAKER_02: This is the show where we talk about all things mental health and well-being, but we take a deep dive into all of our topics and we bring on the experts.
• 0:15
  SPEAKER_02: We bring on people who have been practicing in the fields and are able to give us insights from their experience.
• 0:22
  SPEAKER_02: And today we do often talk about it, but not as a whole show.
• 0:27
  SPEAKER_02: We are talking about social media.
• 0:29
  SPEAKER_02: Now we all use it because we it's free advertising.
• 0:33
  SPEAKER_02: Anyone who has a brand generally is on social media or at least has a website with one social media outlet, such as LinkedIn or Facebook or Instagram or TikTok or whatever it that one thing is.
• 0:45
  SPEAKER_02: But I think for anyone who uses it, we've probably all experienced the rabbit hole we can go down where one post leads to another post, leads to another post, and suddenly an hour's gone by and not a lot has changed in terms of the real world.
• 1:02
  SPEAKER_02: We've just been stuck in this whole.
• 1:05
  SPEAKER_01: How familiar does that sound?
• 1:07
  SPEAKER_04: I mean, yes, it does, and we've all been there.
• 1:10
  SPEAKER_04: Definitely, definitely do that.
• 1:12
  SPEAKER_04: And uh it irritates me that an hour goes by, you know, and whether I should be asleep or should be doing something else.
• 1:20
  SPEAKER_02: Yes, yeah.
• 1:21
  SPEAKER_02: It's funny, I had a friend of mine say, Oh, I don't know why I'm so tired.
• 1:25
  SPEAKER_02: And her husband said, Because you're on social media until one o'clock in the morning.
• 1:29
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, and I blame Girolingo because I'm doing I'm learning Swedish through Girolingo.
• 1:37
  SPEAKER_04: I don't know if you if if someone hasn't used it, the little icon on your phone gets angrier and angrier and angrier the the more the day goes on and you haven't done your lesson that day.
• 1:47
  SPEAKER_04: So I don't have time to do it until I go to bed.
• 1:50
  SPEAKER_04: So if I didn't have to do my Swedish lesson, I wouldn't take my phone to bed and then I wouldn't scroll after doing my Swedish lesson because that's only five minutes, and then I'm there for the next hour, so I that I blame them.
• 2:03
  SPEAKER_02: That's interesting.
• 2:04
  SPEAKER_02: I don't want to make the owl angry.
• 2:06
  SPEAKER_04: No.
• 2:07
  SPEAKER_02: But you see, dueling go or doing something active on your phone, that's fine.
• 2:12
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, that's fine.
• 2:13
  SPEAKER_04: It's the being sucked into the into Facebook or whatever afterwards, that's not fine.
• 2:19
  SPEAKER_02: And and I think what what we need to separate is what's not fine is wasting time when we could be doing something more productive.
• 2:27
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 2:28
  SPEAKER_02: What's not fine is looking at stuff that makes us feel depressed or angry or frustrated or things which have adjusted our mood when it didn't need to.
• 2:36
  SPEAKER_02: It hasn't changed anything in the big scheme of things.
• 2:39
  SPEAKER_02: It's just made us cross or depressed or hating ourselves, which we don't want.
• 2:43
  SPEAKER_02: Or what's not fine is when we end up ignoring our very real loved ones, friends, pets, and so on for something online which isn't real or warm and welcoming and fun.
• 3:00
  SPEAKER_02: And I think that's the separation that we need, and we don't break that down enough.
• 3:06
  SPEAKER_02: We just kind of go social media bad, social media good.
• 3:09
  SPEAKER_04: Yes, yes, I agree.
• 3:11
  SPEAKER_04: And you know, we've said it before that social media can be really good in certain certain aspects of it and in certain scenarios.
• 3:19
  SPEAKER_02: So we are bringing on Nina Hobson of Barefoot Coaching, she's been on the show before, and we will be unpacking the topic of whether social media is really good for us.
• 3:33
  SPEAKER_04: Hi Nina, it's lovely to see you back.
• 3:36
  SPEAKER_00: Hi, thank you, Judith.
• 3:37
  SPEAKER_00: Thanks, Audrey.
• 3:38
  SPEAKER_00: Lovely to be back.
• 3:39
  SPEAKER_04: Oh, great to see you.
• 3:41
  SPEAKER_04: Um, so yeah, jumping straight in.
• 3:43
  SPEAKER_04: Um, social media, why does social media make even confident people doubt themselves?
• 3:52
  SPEAKER_00: You know, I think social media, or I know social media is actively engaged to facilitate that social comparison, if you like.
• 4:03
  SPEAKER_00: You know, as human beings, we are really guided by our emotions, and even the most confident, you know, the most capable people out there, you know, we're susceptible because precisely because we are humans, um, social media is engineered in a way actively um to build on that emotional response.
• 4:23
  SPEAKER_00: So I think it's a very normal human response uh to compare ourselves.
• 4:29
  SPEAKER_00: That's true.
• 4:30
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, that that is true.
• 4:31
  SPEAKER_04: Um, but why do we why do you think that we do that more online than in real life, that comparison?
• 4:38
  SPEAKER_00: So I think there are a few things.
• 4:41
  SPEAKER_00: Um I think social media online, it's available 24-7.
• 4:45
  SPEAKER_00: It's very tempting.
• 4:46
  SPEAKER_00: You know, we've got our phones in our pockets.
• 4:49
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and I think online potentially we only see one view, or so maybe a biased view, um, maybe even not a real view, maybe if it's AI engineered, whereas online, whereas in person we can no doubt see different perspectives, we can see a more rounded picture.
• 5:06
  SPEAKER_00: Um, you know, maybe even unintentionally on social media, you know, if somebody shares, you know, having a wonderful day, they might not be sharing, you know, some of the less good things going on um behind the scenes.
• 5:17
  SPEAKER_00: So it's one picture online, but it's not the only picture.
• 5:21
  SPEAKER_00: So it's in some circumstances I think it can be a little bit distorted.
• 5:26
  SPEAKER_02: I think distortion is a really good word for this because I I I know my own thinking, because I've caught myself doing it, I'll be on social media, I'll look at what someone's doing, and it's got nothing to do with what I'm doing whatsoever.
• 5:41
  SPEAKER_02: But then I start thinking, oh, they're doing that.
• 5:43
  SPEAKER_02: Should I be doing that?
• 5:45
  SPEAKER_02: It and I don't even want to do that, but yeah, because they are, and maybe it's maybe it's more the likes I'm envious of or the success perceived success or something or recognition or validation or whatever that is, but I don't even want to do what they're doing, and yet I compare myself.
• 6:02
  SPEAKER_02: So, what is the danger when we start questioning our own worth based on the fact that I'm not doing that person's thing?
• 6:12
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I mean it's not it's not rational, is it?
• 6:15
  SPEAKER_00: I think it's really not a rational response, it's a very human, as I said, it's an emotional response, but I don't think it's always very helpful.
• 6:22
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, going back, you know, to an evolutionary perspective, you know, thinking of our negativity bias, focusing on those negatives, it's a very normal thing to do.
• 6:30
  SPEAKER_00: Like you said, you know, maybe we something pops up and we think, oh, why am I not there?
• 6:35
  SPEAKER_00: It's a very, you know, normal human response, but it's not always very helpful.
• 6:40
  SPEAKER_00: If we're not careful, that can I think really sort of compress, you know, um, our thinking instead of expanding and you know, providing a sense of inspiration, we start to go inwards on ourselves and think, you know, why have they got that and I haven't?
• 6:54
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and yeah, that's just really not helpful, is it?
• 6:57
  SPEAKER_02: You make a really good point there about um using it for inspiration rather than for beating ourselves up.
• 7:04
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 7:04
  SPEAKER_02: And in that case, how can we make that mindset switch so it doesn't affect our decision making?
• 7:13
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, or is that even possible?
• 7:15
  SPEAKER_00: Um, you know, as humans, I think it's really tough.
• 7:18
  SPEAKER_00: If we can step into a more, you know, uh rational position.
• 7:23
  SPEAKER_00: So just take a breath.
• 7:24
  SPEAKER_00: I think that's really helpful.
• 7:26
  SPEAKER_00: Whether that is a, you know, for some people it might be a full digital detox or a mini, you know, if you're like a hiatus away, you know, for people that are involved in social media, maybe for their work, that's not possible.
• 7:37
  SPEAKER_00: But taking, if you like, little sense checks can be really helpful.
• 7:41
  SPEAKER_00: Um, I think to step away and have a more yeah rational perspective on, okay, is this inspiring me?
• 7:48
  SPEAKER_00: Is this actually helping me?
• 7:49
  SPEAKER_00: Is this you know motivating me upwards and onwards?
• 7:53
  SPEAKER_00: Or is it really not?
• 7:54
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and I think um tapping into that more rational perspective is is really helpful.
• 8:01
  SPEAKER_00: It's not easy, um, so I really want to stress that.
• 8:03
  SPEAKER_00: I am not judging anybody, I'm not saying it's an easy thing to do.
• 8:07
  SPEAKER_00: I'm certainly, you know, fall into that category of you know finding it challenging.
• 8:11
  SPEAKER_00: Um, I've got three children and they engage, you know, online in different ways.
• 8:15
  SPEAKER_00: So it's a challenge.
• 8:17
  SPEAKER_00: I'm certainly not judging anybody, it's not easy, um, but there are small steps that we can take.
• 8:23
  SPEAKER_02: And that's something we're gonna p unpack after the after this break.
• 8:28
  SPEAKER_02: But I think it's really important also now to have this conversation because so much of what we're seeing is AI as well.
• 8:34
  SPEAKER_02: Yes, and that makes it even worse.
• 8:36
  SPEAKER_02: So it's not even someone's highlight real, but it's actually someone who's not even real to use the word in a you know another sense.
• 8:45
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and maybe we don't know we don't know now what's real and what's not.
• 8:48
  SPEAKER_00: So we're comparing ourselves not just to you know what seems like an impossible, you know, oh this you know celebrity lifestyle's got it so good, but it's actually not even real yet, it's AI.
• 8:58
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and it's not often explicit.
• 9:00
  SPEAKER_00: I mean it'll be interesting to see how regulations develop.
• 9:03
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but yeah, it feels quite I don't know if you'd agree, Rosie, you were quite sneaky at times.
• 9:08
  SPEAKER_00: Oh yeah, god, yeah.
• 9:10
  SPEAKER_04: Totally.
• 9:11
  SPEAKER_02: Absolutely, because yeah, it's this is like paid partnerships and things like that with implementers.
• 9:16
  SPEAKER_02: People don't always put them on, and that's the thing, people don't always put on AI.
• 9:20
  SPEAKER_02: And then what I notice is when AI comes to you and says you're it looks like you're using AI, you sort of sit there and go, but I used editing.
• 9:30
  SPEAKER_02: I didn't put a filter on, I didn't do anything strange, I edited this clip, and that's that's not AI.
• 9:38
  SPEAKER_04: No, I wouldn't call that AI for sure.
• 9:40
  SPEAKER_00: So I mean it's nuanced, AI is huge, whether it's you know a light spell check that's very different to you know filters and not being transparent about it.
• 9:49
  SPEAKER_00: And even as you say, you know, even like a little disclaimer that you know something is using AI.
• 9:55
  SPEAKER_00: How much do we take that into account when we're actually just seeing a visual and we're presenting that with that emotional response coming in through you know an image or a video feels very, very strong.
• 10:06
  SPEAKER_00: So yeah, I I mean I would question the value of some of these, you know, very little asterisk uh disclaimers added in.
• 10:13
  SPEAKER_02: Yes, yes.
• 10:14
  SPEAKER_02: We're gonna keep you, Nina, and we will be back after a clip from the last time Nina was on the show.
• 10:23
  SPEAKER_00: In terms of asking ourselves, I think there's around we need to ask ourselves, you know, why are we using what's the purpose of this?
• 10:30
  SPEAKER_00: You know, is it to, again, is it to assist or is it to replace, you know?
• 10:34
  SPEAKER_00: So I think we need to, you know, be really, really careful in terms of the our intention, our purpose.
• 10:40
  SPEAKER_00: Um, for me, we need to be clear about our boundaries.
• 10:43
  SPEAKER_00: So ask ourselves, okay, you know, when you you maybe put put a question in and then it will come back, would you like to do this?
• 10:48
  SPEAKER_00: Would you like to do this?
• 10:49
  SPEAKER_00: You know, you're down this little rabbit hole.
• 10:51
  SPEAKER_00: So being really clear, okay, what am I using it for?
• 10:55
  SPEAKER_00: How long am I using it for, and where is my data going?
• 10:58
  SPEAKER_00: So be really mindful if you're using free versions, for example, to be extra cautious, you know, if you are in and the type of data that you're um inputting.
• 11:07
  SPEAKER_00: So if there's anything sensitive there, like I'd say, whoa, whoa, whoa, um yeah, be cautious.
• 11:14
  SPEAKER_00: Um, what are you using it for?
• 11:16
  SPEAKER_00: So anything where if you're looking, it's it's not high risk, it is admin level, um, it's not you know catastrophic, not super important, great if it can um help.
• 11:28
  SPEAKER_00: But I think the anything which veers into emotional support, social skills, I would be very very, very concerned about personally.
• 11:41
  SPEAKER_04: Welcome back to Mental Health Matters, where we're talking to Nina Hobson about the comparison trap.
• 11:47
  SPEAKER_04: Um an interesting concept.
• 11:49
  SPEAKER_04: Um yeah, it's a good discussion.
• 11:52
  SPEAKER_02: It's a strange one, especially now, because I think we've always had a comparison trap.
• 11:57
  SPEAKER_02: I think we've always self-esteem is about you in comparison to other people.
• 12:02
  SPEAKER_02: That is his very definition.
• 12:04
  SPEAKER_02: And so now when we're in a situation where we're not even comparing ourselves to a real life other person, but almost an unobtainable, filtered or not even real person, then I think we're in bigger trouble.
• 12:20
  SPEAKER_02: So that's why I think it's a good discussion to interest.
• 12:23
  SPEAKER_04: Yes, it definitely is, yes.
• 12:24
  SPEAKER_04: Um, so you talked about inspiration before.
• 12:27
  SPEAKER_04: How can we separate inspiration from self-criticism, comparison, etc.?
• 12:34
  SPEAKER_00: I think um inspiration really invites you forward.
• 12:40
  SPEAKER_00: Um, it yeah, inspires it literally, it's propelling you, it invites you forward.
• 12:44
  SPEAKER_00: Whereas comparison, um, when not kept in check, pulls you back.
• 12:49
  SPEAKER_00: So I think there's something about movement, um, whereby yeah, inspiration uh invites you forward, comparison pulls you back, to put it very simply.
• 12:59
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, so one is sort of a positive spin on things, and one one not so much, yeah.
• 13:05
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, that's it.
• 13:06
  SPEAKER_00: And it's really nuanced there because yeah, I mean, social media can do both of those things at the same time or interchanging.
• 13:13
  SPEAKER_00: So it's a very uh complex, uh nuanced uh debate.
• 13:18
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and I think yeah, social media can be both things at at the same time, and for different people it would look very different.
• 13:25
  SPEAKER_04: Yes, very true.
• 13:27
  SPEAKER_04: And why do you think it's hard to do in practice?
• 13:30
  SPEAKER_04: Um, even though we can talk about it theoretically, um why why is it hard to kind of go with inspiration rather than comparison?
• 13:42
  SPEAKER_00: Um I think um it's we have a very emotional response as as humans, and that tends to sort of overtake in terms of our decision making.
• 13:51
  SPEAKER_00: Um so just going in, you know, like that fast response is the emotional knee-jerk reaction, um, can be very powerful, and that sense check um requires a more, you know, a slower, deliberate um thought, which can be you know, just take a little bit longer, but some conscious thought to access.
• 14:08
  SPEAKER_00: It's not impossible, um, but I do think it's hard, and uh or it can be.
• 14:14
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and I think, yeah, social media, a lot of online tools, approaches, very much engineered actively.
• 14:21
  SPEAKER_00: A lot of money is being spent in order to draw us in, you know, to build on this idea of uh social comparison.
• 14:29
  SPEAKER_00: So yeah, I think in many ways we are fighting a bit upstream a lot of the time.
• 14:34
  SPEAKER_02: So, in that case, do you think we should actually just tell ourselves, stop using this as comparison and actually just be very clear with that?
• 14:42
  SPEAKER_02: Or change our own relationship with comparison and see it more like a okay, if that person can do it, what steps did they take?
• 14:52
  SPEAKER_02: How can I get there as well?
• 14:54
  SPEAKER_02: So, not even inspiration, oh my god, that's so amazing, I want to be that person, but okay, they did it.
• 15:01
  SPEAKER_02: Practically, what do I have to learn?
• 15:05
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I mean, my sense check would be the latter.
• 15:08
  SPEAKER_00: I I I think though, both just noticing, just saying to oneself, just stop in that moment when those thoughts creep in, you know, actually, you know, say to oneself, stop, noticing that that's happening is really important.
• 15:19
  SPEAKER_00: But be a to be able to just you know simply say, Okay, I'm gonna stop, um, is easier said than done.
• 15:24
  SPEAKER_00: And as you said, to sort of bring in that more, you know, rational sense check and be like, okay, well, this is interesting.
• 15:30
  SPEAKER_00: Here's this person, I I want to be more like them, or here's this thing that I'm wanting.
• 15:35
  SPEAKER_00: Um, what do I need to go to get there?
• 15:37
  SPEAKER_00: What do I need in order to you know become more like this person, achieve this thing, get this thing, and is it worth it?
• 15:44
  SPEAKER_00: And quite often when we actually start mapping out, we realise I don't want to put in that work or I don't want to make those sacrifices uh to make it happen.
• 15:53
  SPEAKER_00: And that can feel very empowering.
• 15:56
  SPEAKER_02: Yes, yes, because then you begin to A improve your self-awareness, but B, look at the reality of things, and I think that reality aspect is is really, really key.
• 16:07
  SPEAKER_02: Um we we talk a lot on this show about the different types of trends.
• 16:12
  SPEAKER_02: Very recently we spoke with Felicia Jones about the trend of trad wife, and she really pulled that part really well that it's a choice that someone might make to not do the professional career and so on.
• 16:25
  SPEAKER_02: And and as long as it's a vocalized conscious choice, it's your choice.
• 16:30
  SPEAKER_02: Absolutely fine.
• 16:32
  SPEAKER_02: Um, but we see clean fluencers, that's another one, uh, who have these beautiful houses, and then it's all amazing, and my house never looks like that.
• 16:41
  SPEAKER_02: And and um are there other areas that we that might affect us without even realizing they're affecting us?
• 16:50
  SPEAKER_00: I think um plecently, yes.
• 16:53
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, I'm really curious, for example, about you know, our perceptions of uh social media, um, you know, how as a parent that might show up.
• 16:59
  SPEAKER_00: So seeing there's quite a lot of you know disparaging comments around it, somebody you know working in within social media years ago, it seemed like you know such a shiny, fabulous place.
• 17:09
  SPEAKER_00: And now, you know, hearing lots of comments around you know, like the new tobacco or the new you know uh tobacco industry and um a lot of shame within parenting.
• 17:18
  SPEAKER_00: Um so I'm quite interested in that.
• 17:20
  SPEAKER_00: Also about the lobbying that goes on behind you know, behind the scenes, a lack of transparency.
• 17:25
  SPEAKER_00: I think you know implicitly things might be happening that we're not aware of.
• 17:29
  SPEAKER_00: So that's something that certainly concerns me.
• 17:32
  SPEAKER_00: Um I think the impact of those, yeah, the perceptions of social media about not judging that people do have, you know, different responses, reactions, and um it's a very murky, muddy topic.
• 17:46
  SPEAKER_00: Um, I think there's a lot there to unpack um there, Audrey.
• 17:50
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I think it's so interesting that you you said you've you've worked in social media previously.
• 17:54
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, so I worked in comms previously, I had a blog previously, and you know, your point about you know the clean influence, and I was very aware of, you know, sometimes you're wanting to give people a little, you know, a nice, you know, comforting kind of environment.
• 18:08
  SPEAKER_00: But I was thinking, you know, do I share like the niceness or do I share like actually this is really horrible and this is what's been happening, without feeling like oh, you know, sort of moaning, you know, poor me.
• 18:19
  SPEAKER_00: And so really noticing as well that different people will respond to different content uh in different ways.
• 18:24
  SPEAKER_00: I don't think there is a perfect answer.
• 18:27
  SPEAKER_00: I think as humans it's impossible not to compare.
• 18:31
  SPEAKER_00: That's not to say that we're off the the off the hook.
• 18:33
  SPEAKER_00: Um, you know, social media companies I think need to take a lot more responsibility, yeah.
• 18:37
  SPEAKER_00: And when we do produce content, we need to be aware of the implications that that might have in terms of reactions, but we can't control it.
• 18:45
  SPEAKER_02: Yes, I think that's a very nice point you make there about not being able to control what other people read our posts as.
• 18:54
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, to some degree, I think as long as we're not showing off, or unless that's your intention, which is also fine because it's a conscious choice, um, we can't always be responsible for other people's reactions, surely, can we?
• 19:10
  SPEAKER_00: No.
• 19:10
  SPEAKER_00: However, you know, there is a line, and you know, I'm aware of you know these very unhealthy, you know, online challenges, you know, particularly aimed at children.
• 19:19
  SPEAKER_00: Um, yeah, yeah.
• 19:20
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and I feel very, very strongly about that.
• 19:23
  SPEAKER_00: So it's noticing that people will show up in different ways, being mindful of, oh, okay, this is how this might be.
• 19:29
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, people may react to this video and people reacting to different ways.
• 19:32
  SPEAKER_00: So to being, you know, really cautious, careful, and above all, responsible.
• 19:37
  SPEAKER_00: I think that was, yeah, taking an ethical approach feels really important.
• 19:41
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, I like that.
• 19:42
  SPEAKER_02: Do you mind just explaining a bit more about what that would entail, taking an ethical approach?
• 19:47
  SPEAKER_02: Because I think that is absolutely right.
• 19:49
  SPEAKER_02: I think there are general ethical standards which we all need to adhere to, but also for us, I guess, what would what questions do we need to be asking ourselves alongside how might someone react to this?
• 20:03
  SPEAKER_00: Do you so from our own personal perspective or from a social media's?
• 20:07
  SPEAKER_02: I guess both, really.
• 20:09
  SPEAKER_02: Especially if there's difference.
• 20:11
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, from a uh I'm mindful it's not about judging people, and you know, I'm really cautious about saying, you know, it's all on the individual because as I you know feel very strongly like social media companies and it's engineered in a way to really facilitate and promote engagement and you know, social comparison through that.
• 20:29
  SPEAKER_00: However, I think there are things that we can do, you know, in terms of ethically asking ourselves, is this something that I want to be a part of?
• 20:36
  SPEAKER_00: Um, is this useful for me?
• 20:38
  SPEAKER_00: Is this content you know helpful for me?
• 20:41
  SPEAKER_00: Motivating?
• 20:42
  SPEAKER_00: Is it inspiring me?
• 20:43
  SPEAKER_00: Is it you know inviting me forward or holding me back?
• 20:46
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but as I say, I'm very mindful of that, the limits of what we can do as individuals and you know, the folk looking at the bigger system in which we're operating as well.
• 20:58
  SPEAKER_02: Can I ask a curveball question?
• 21:00
  SPEAKER_02: This is to both of you actually when it comes to social media.
• 21:03
  SPEAKER_02: What happens if you follow someone because you're their friend and you're supposed to, and you're supposed to like their posts, and you dislike their posts, you know, you actively so I mean I think I've taken the cowards way out, I just ignore it and move on.
• 21:20
  SPEAKER_02: Or I mute it, I suppose, but I don't unfollow them, and I know actually unfollowing is sometimes the healthier thing to do, but that's a bit of a bind.
• 21:32
  SPEAKER_00: What would you look like different things for different people?
• 21:35
  SPEAKER_00: Um, a lot of clients who I work with, yes, you know, as you say, you know, muting, unfollowing, like looking after yourself, realizing okay, this might be, you know, um, in terms of comparison, it's really you know provoking some horrible feelings in me.
• 21:49
  SPEAKER_00: Take a detox, unfollow.
• 21:51
  SPEAKER_00: Um, that's absolutely okay.
• 21:52
  SPEAKER_00: And you know, if you do want to start an engaging conversation, if there are things that you disagree with, you know, do that offline um and do that in a You know, premeditated in a rational and yeah, again in a respectful way.
• 22:05
  SPEAKER_00: Very good point.
• 22:06
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, I would unfollow.
• 22:08
  SPEAKER_04: I I wouldn't even think twice because I would stay friends with that person.
• 22:11
  SPEAKER_04: Um but yeah, no, I I would unfollow.
• 22:15
  SPEAKER_00: If it's not, yeah, if it's not helpful for you do this in that moment, if you're noticing like this is really not yeah, making me feel better, it's not inspiring me, um, then yeah, look after yourself.
• 22:25
  SPEAKER_00: That's not to say exactly that we can have a difference opinion, we can be friends, but it's not something that I want to engage in.
• 22:31
  SPEAKER_00: I do think it's useful to be exposed to um different ideas and approaches.
• 22:36
  SPEAKER_00: So, you know, whether that's trusted media to read different newspapers, to you know, listen to different viewpoints, but I'm not suggesting that anybody, you know, has to engage in a content that they're just really finding, yeah, not helpful to them on a perhaps on a day-to-day basis.
• 22:53
  SPEAKER_04: Yes, I I I agree, especially if it's um content that kind of brings you down, you know, and sometimes you know, pages that I follow or friends that I follow, that that would that would come under that.
• 23:05
  SPEAKER_04: And I I don't, you know, I don't want to see that.
• 23:07
  SPEAKER_02: And just to pull that thread a little bit further, because I think that's a that's another nice point, is different things for different people or different content for different people affects them in different ways.
• 23:17
  SPEAKER_02: So I I know my experience of following not following or being friends with certain people, their content is about them, it's very personal, but it's very to me depressing.
• 23:29
  SPEAKER_02: And if they're having a problem, I'd rather they spoke to me offline or I would rather speak to them offline.
• 23:34
  SPEAKER_02: But if they want to talk to people on social media, I don't want to get involved in that.
• 23:39
  SPEAKER_02: Then then then that's absolutely fine.
• 23:41
  SPEAKER_02: But that's the sort of person that affects me, but in the same way, other people can affect me if they're oh, you've got to do this, you've got to do that.
• 23:50
  SPEAKER_02: They're easier to f unfollow because they're they're not my friends, I guess.
• 23:53
  SPEAKER_02: That's true.
• 23:54
  SPEAKER_02: So that's the sort of content that winds me up.
• 23:56
  SPEAKER_02: But yes.
• 23:57
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, for me, the concept of whether this is online or offline, it's your boundaries.
• 24:02
  SPEAKER_00: So, okay, my personal boundaries, yes, you're saying, like this is not not helping me, this is what I can deal with right now.
• 24:08
  SPEAKER_00: Um, yeah, and just protecting your own personal boundaries.
• 24:11
  SPEAKER_00: And I think that implies as much as online as in you know real life, um, you know, with people just noticing that, you know, if this is happening with you know, in friendships and relationships, if you're feeling that you're yeah, you're giving a lot more than you're receiving, then simply noticing that um and being yeah, mindful of your boundaries, I think, can really help.
• 24:31
  SPEAKER_02: Protecting energy.
• 24:32
  SPEAKER_02: We're gonna keep you, Nina, and we'll be back after another clip from last time Nina was on the show.
• 24:44
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I think there's a couple of things there.
• 24:46
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, are we talking from a legal perspective um or from an ethical perspective?
• 24:51
  SPEAKER_00: So, you know, if we look legally, um, you know, here I'm based in in Spain and the EU AI Act came into force.
• 25:00
  SPEAKER_00: In the UK, we have a more you know flexible, depending on the industry type system.
• 25:04
  SPEAKER_00: So there, you know, from a legal um basis, it it depends.
• 25:08
  SPEAKER_00: It can be quite a grey area, but we're seeing increasing regulation come into force, which I think is great.
• 25:14
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, um, but I also think just from an individual basis, it's it's not okay to say, Well, I didn't know, you know, um you can't just throw it back to the designers.
• 25:26
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, I think it's it can be really, really hard to understand AI.
• 25:30
  SPEAKER_00: I've done a lot of um you know personal research into this.
• 25:33
  SPEAKER_00: I'm really learning, it's a topic that I'm personally very, very passionate about.
• 25:39
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but it's really hard, it can be really hard for the end user to understand, and I think it's really important to engage, not to say, okay, I didn't know, um, I don't know, um, and to kind of hand back, but to really lean in um and to engage and and to keep learning and to be really clear about our own personal AI use as much as possible.
• 26:06
  SPEAKER_02: Welcome back to Mental Health Matters.
• 26:08
  SPEAKER_02: We're talking with Nina Hobson of Barefoot Coaching about the use of social media, about comparisons, about what to do when we're not happy with something that we're constantly seeing or constantly consuming.
• 26:20
  SPEAKER_02: But I'm gonna make it a little bit more positive now.
• 26:22
  SPEAKER_02: Where and in what ways can social media be helpful to us?
• 26:27
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, in so many ways, and I think I love that you've brought this in because it's such a nuanced argument, and I think it's so much easier, you know, just to split good, bad, and you know, to only hear one argument.
• 26:37
  SPEAKER_00: So, firstly, I love that you've you've raised that.
• 26:39
  SPEAKER_00: Um, I can think in terms of so many ideas, but first of all, you know, information, so access to information resources, um, finding out about real in-life connections, having lived in lots of different countries myself, it has been really useful to have these, you know, real connections with people, um, person to person, um, has been really important.
• 27:02
  SPEAKER_00: And and for people that you know find those um in-person connections difficult, doing that on an online space um can be really, really helpful.
• 27:10
  SPEAKER_00: So people that are feeling you know secluded online can feel like a very safe space.
• 27:15
  SPEAKER_00: So that's really important.
• 27:17
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and also uh years ago I did some um volunteering um with uh some Ukrainian students teaching English, and it was a real eye-opener for me them sharing the power of social media in terms of access of reliable information, so in terms of human rights, sharing ideas, trusting social media a lot more actually, um, than a lot of more you know official sources.
• 27:43
  SPEAKER_00: And for me, that was a complete, you know, 360 turn.
• 27:47
  SPEAKER_00: Um, you know, so I think social media is often branded as just this purely, you know, terrible thing or um, you know, this wonderful thing, and seeing that nuance um is really, really important.
• 28:00
  SPEAKER_02: Just on that though, I can waste time on social media, but it may not be I'm having a good time.
• 28:10
  SPEAKER_02: So uh talking of AI, I really like this AI Pomeranian called Biscuit.
• 28:21
  SPEAKER_01: He's really cute, he runs a cafe, he's always cleaning, he's always ironing, he's always but he's joking very cute.
• 28:30
  SPEAKER_01: And I will watch his reels just like that, and then half an hour's gone.
• 28:35
  SPEAKER_01: I haven't got time.
• 28:39
  SPEAKER_01: It feels bad.
• 28:42
  SPEAKER_04: It depends what else you should have been doing in the number of the real top of the action.
• 28:52
  SPEAKER_00: Um we're laughing about now, but I I think yeah, if you you know, get that is not bad.
• 28:59
  SPEAKER_00: If you come away saying, Oh, I enjoyed that half an hour, then you know, let's and it's totally normal uh to you know, a bit of people call you know that doom doom scrolling or whatever that might be, looking at I don't know, silly AI cats.
• 29:12
  SPEAKER_00: I'm not I'm not judging that whatsoever.
• 29:15
  SPEAKER_00: Um, you know, I think there's a a line when it becomes to like, yeah, unhelpful or I've wasted so much time I'm not getting on with, you know, the things that are giving me energy, you know, my goals, my you know, fulfilling my values.
• 29:27
  SPEAKER_00: But yeah, I'm certainly not judging a you know 30 minutes for what you know watching an AI Pomeranian, what that might look like to different people.
• 29:36
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I think that's it.
• 29:38
  SPEAKER_02: I think it it is that creeping in though of I have my own Pomerania, you know, I've got my own real one who's staring at me, wanting to play with him.
• 29:48
  SPEAKER_02: So I think it's the same thing as if you're spending too much time on a chat GPT boyfriend or girlfriend or something, and not actually you might be having fun and it might be positive, but there comes a point where reality has got to come in as unpleasant as reality can sometimes be sometimes.
• 30:06
  SPEAKER_02: So that brings me to this question of what does enough look like in reality?
• 30:11
  SPEAKER_02: You know, what does satisfaction look like?
• 30:14
  SPEAKER_02: What can we be happy with?
• 30:18
  SPEAKER_00: I think enough will look like uh different things to different people, um, but noticing that, um, maybe saying it out loud or writing it down, sharing that with a friend about what those boundaries or what those rules look like to you.
• 30:33
  SPEAKER_00: And I think being mindful of you know some of the obstacles, the challenges around um, you know, potentially limiting oneself.
• 30:41
  SPEAKER_00: So saying to for example, um, I know a lot of people saying, Oh, I'm only gonna have 10 minutes on these, I don't know, silly AI Pomeranium videos can be really hard.
• 30:50
  SPEAKER_00: But you know, you start off with 10 minutes and before you know it, your whole morning's gone.
• 30:53
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 30:54
  SPEAKER_00: Might be more helpful to say, okay, while I'm having my morning coffee, I'm just gonna have a little bit of a you know, a scroll, or I'm going to be focused only on, you know, this WhatsApp, connecting with friends or whatever it may be.
• 31:08
  SPEAKER_00: But keeping it, um, yeah, keeping those boundaries in place, I think is really important.
• 31:13
  SPEAKER_02: It is about being strict with ourselves, isn't it?
• 31:15
  SPEAKER_02: Really?
• 31:16
  SPEAKER_02: Yes.
• 31:16
  SPEAKER_02: Sort of now started to not go on social media in the morning, but only go on the news, whether that's healthy or not, but at least I know what's happening in the world.
• 31:25
  SPEAKER_02: So it feels better to me.
• 31:27
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, I know what you mean.
• 31:28
  SPEAKER_00: I know what you mean.
• 31:29
  SPEAKER_00: Strict and kind, I would say strict and compassionate.
• 31:32
  SPEAKER_00: Nice.
• 31:32
  SPEAKER_00: Um, I mean, a lot of what you're saying relates.
• 31:34
  SPEAKER_00: I was doing my uh studying for my master's years ago, and I remember I was checking these cat videos on Facebook.
• 31:42
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, I don't even particularly like cats, and I thought, I'm wasting my time, this is not helpful.
• 31:48
  SPEAKER_00: Um, yeah, I do like cats, but to extend over um, you know, getting my masters, and I thought, nah, this is not helpful, and right then deleted, um, you know, quite brutal maybe, but deleted all my social media apart from LinkedIn.
• 32:02
  SPEAKER_00: That was something I thought, no, LinkedIn is still really helpful for me, is really useful.
• 32:06
  SPEAKER_00: Um, I've also got WhatsApp to connect with friends, but from that moment it was like, right, uh, the blog, Facebook, um, Pinterest, Instagram, the lot, it's going.
• 32:16
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and I decided to take that step.
• 32:18
  SPEAKER_00: But that was for me.
• 32:19
  SPEAKER_00: That my enough um will look like different things, yeah.
• 32:23
  SPEAKER_00: It'll look differently to different people.
• 32:25
  SPEAKER_02: That's really helpful.
• 32:26
  SPEAKER_02: I know you've got a question.
• 32:27
  SPEAKER_02: I just want to interrupt for a second, just with another thing that we see, and another guest has said this um previously, one thing you can get caught up in is the spiral of the they call them the social media detectives.
• 32:41
  SPEAKER_02: So if there's someone's gone missing, and this is a serious case example, people will go and then they'll look for what it looks like on Google Maps of where they were last, and they will get really into that story.
• 32:52
  SPEAKER_02: And I have found myself, I do check out the guests on the show, and there was one at one time I was asked to bring on a different guest on the show, and I wasn't sure about their credentials, but I got caught down a very, very long rabbit hole going, Oh, that's oh my goodness, and then I went into another.
• 33:14
  SPEAKER_02: I did find out that that person did not earn their credentials, and and I'm really glad we didn't have them on the show, but I got really consumed by this armchair detectiving, yeah, which probably wasn't worth it when I could have just said no.
• 33:29
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, I suppose your instinct was really interesting.
• 33:32
  SPEAKER_04: Sorry, Judith.
• 33:32
  SPEAKER_04: No, sorry, I was just gonna say your instinct told you something, and then you kind of backed it up.
• 33:37
  SPEAKER_04: But had you just gone with your instinct, then you maybe would would have those two hours back, whatever.
• 33:42
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, yeah, sorry.
• 33:43
  SPEAKER_00: No, just picking up you know some of the language there.
• 33:46
  SPEAKER_00: I think you mentioned like I was really consumed, it's quite sort of passive, you know, feeling sort of trapped in this kind of frenzy, and that can sometimes happen online.
• 33:55
  SPEAKER_00: And again, it's going back to that point of you know, stepping back, you know, rationally, having a bit of a sense check.
• 34:00
  SPEAKER_00: I'm hearing that scenario, it was absolutely useful to do some background research.
• 34:06
  SPEAKER_00: Um, you know, but online, you know, when this gets, yes, you said like this detective work when that's no longer helpful, a little sense check um is important.
• 34:16
  SPEAKER_02: And I just like your point about passive.
• 34:19
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, you do use passive work, that's really interesting.
• 34:21
  SPEAKER_02: I was consumed, yeah.
• 34:22
  SPEAKER_02: And I didn't even realise I said, I'm glad you pointed that one out.
• 34:25
  SPEAKER_02: Now I reflect on that.
• 34:27
  SPEAKER_02: I that's how I felt that I couldn't get myself out of that, but of course I could.
• 34:34
  SPEAKER_04: But it kind of makes you feel like that, doesn't it?
• 34:36
  SPEAKER_04: It sticks you in, and yes, it does make you feel like that, and I suppose that's the whole point.
• 34:41
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, yeah.
• 34:42
  SPEAKER_04: But it's interesting you're saying about your masters because I all I was thinking was, I'm so glad that there wasn't all this social media when I was doing my degree because I procrastinated enough, you know.
• 34:53
  SPEAKER_04: So I just think I probably wouldn't have got it done.
• 34:56
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and I think uh you know, I so much, you know, compassion and respect for people that are studying and you know coming into this world like you know now and feeling you know very different and adapting to this change.
• 35:09
  SPEAKER_00: Um, yeah, I think it's a very challenging world that we're living in.
• 35:13
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and yeah, a lot of respect um for the people that are studying right now, entering work for the first time.
• 35:20
  SPEAKER_00: Um, a lot of respect.
• 35:22
  SPEAKER_04: Absolutely, it kind of makes you think all of the distractions that they have to fight against that that I didn't have to when I was at school, I didn't have to when I was starting work.
• 35:32
  SPEAKER_04: So, yeah, huge respect.
• 35:35
  SPEAKER_04: Um, so so kind of on that then, what do you think that our lives would look like if we lived more in the real world?
• 35:43
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, again, I feel like I'm doing a lot of um pushing back a lot of it depends on our chat today, but um again, I think that real will mean different things to different people.
• 35:54
  SPEAKER_00: Um I think it's about being authentic to oneself, and for some people that will be engaging on on social media, making friends, having those connections, you know, online, and for others it will be about exercising more, getting into nature more, reading more books.
• 36:11
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, I took the you know decision, like right, I'm gonna cut out social media, and I noticed I started engaging in books a lot more, um, uh reading a lot more, um, really made an effort to get outside.
• 36:25
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and that I found that really helpful for myself.
• 36:28
  SPEAKER_00: You know, client, you know, clients that I work with um in coaching, you know, respond in different ways.
• 36:33
  SPEAKER_00: So that real will mean um different things um yeah to different people.
• 36:37
  SPEAKER_04: That's true, actually.
• 36:39
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, I hadn't really thought about that.
• 36:41
  SPEAKER_04: Online is real life for so many people, yeah.
• 36:45
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and it's not just like social media again is good or bad, it's but it's it's how we use it, how we interact, and you know, depending on different people.
• 36:53
  SPEAKER_00: Um, I I read some research in about, you know, if we are actively engaging that we are posting every day and we're feeling that commitment we have to every day when we're actually posting, um, you know, a difference in terms of our well-being or the impact on our well-being, then those are more, you know, passive, have a little look, you know, maybe a little bit of Pomeranian um viewing, 30, 30 minutes here or there is very different.
• 37:19
  SPEAKER_00: And you know, those boundaries will um look different for different people.
• 37:23
  SPEAKER_00: Um, so yeah, I think it again, it really depends, you know, who you are, how you're using it, um, your your life, your background.
• 37:34
  SPEAKER_00: Um, yeah, it's very deep and personal.
• 37:36
  SPEAKER_02: Just pulling up the point about um online can be really helpful for people, and you did say this before, some people are very lonely, online is their way of reaching out.
• 37:46
  SPEAKER_02: Um, I was reading a book on the world of warcraft uh because a lot of people talk about addiction to that, and and there's a very negative side to it.
• 37:53
  SPEAKER_02: And yes, there is a hugely negative side, but one boy was being interviewed and he is disabled, and he said in World of Warcraft he can be a ninja, he can scale walls, he can command troops, and no one looks at him with pity.
• 38:09
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, and I think there is something very freeing about being online for many people as well, and we have to be careful not to vilify it to that degree.
• 38:20
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, so very true.
• 38:22
  SPEAKER_02: So it's so difficult.
• 38:23
  SPEAKER_02: Do you mind me asking, what do you think about the ban?
• 38:26
  SPEAKER_02: The social media ban?
• 38:28
  SPEAKER_00: Uh I I think my I'm still undecided.
• 38:30
  SPEAKER_00: I'm still cautiously wait and see.
• 38:33
  SPEAKER_00: So we're talking um spring 2027, I understand.
• 38:37
  SPEAKER_00: Um yeah, I'm hearing lots of different voices.
• 38:39
  SPEAKER_00: I think a simplistic it will solve everything.
• 38:42
  SPEAKER_00: No, yes, there is a danger that will go, you know, yes, will kids be pushed underground?
• 38:48
  SPEAKER_00: Um, you know, my my knee jet reaction initially was, you know, great, we're talking around this, we're taking action, but I feel more responsibility needs to be on the social media companies themselves than on banning children.
• 39:00
  SPEAKER_00: Um, I'm concerned for parents and the responsibility, you know, that parents might feel, or even indirectly, you know, implicit um negative judgment.
• 39:09
  SPEAKER_00: Um, I don't think it's going to be a panacea.
• 39:12
  SPEAKER_00: I know we're talking about social media, you know, like like tobacco, but I do think it is um very different.
• 39:18
  SPEAKER_00: Um thinking about how different people engage and and react.
• 39:24
  SPEAKER_00: But broadly speaking, yeah, there's a lot I really don't like.
• 39:27
  SPEAKER_00: I don't like the lack of transparency, I don't like a lot of the way that it is engaged, um, engineered in a way to force us to engage, to compare a lot uh that goes into it.
• 39:40
  SPEAKER_00: Um I'll wait and see.
• 39:43
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I'm I'm really, really undecided on this one, Audrey.
• 39:46
  SPEAKER_00: Um, how about you both?
• 39:48
  SPEAKER_02: Um I agree with you that I don't think it's going to solve every problem.
• 39:51
  SPEAKER_02: That's the first thing.
• 39:52
  SPEAKER_02: And I also think it does become a problem with the cut-off age.
• 39:58
  SPEAKER_02: Yes.
• 39:58
  SPEAKER_02: So somebody who is 15 and 364 days kind of thing, what happens there?
• 40:05
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 40:06
  SPEAKER_02: And then do you take social media away from that person because it's now banned and therefore illegal?
• 40:12
  SPEAKER_02: So I think I think it's going to cause more problems than it solves.
• 40:15
  SPEAKER_02: I agree with you that social media companies do need to have responsibility or the facility to take things down faster.
• 40:23
  SPEAKER_02: Even if it is an immediate press the button, it comes down, then investigate it, and it can go back up afterwards.
• 40:30
  SPEAKER_02: But I think if if someone's attention is drawn to something, there's part of me that goes, remove it straight away, then be able to sort it out, deal with it, and put it back up if there's no issue.
• 40:42
  SPEAKER_02: Um I also think one of the bigger problems is us as adults.
• 40:47
  SPEAKER_02: Because if we cannot put our phones away, and we are always on social media and we are behaving in those ways, what on earth are we actually teaching other people?
• 40:59
  SPEAKER_02: If we can't make the real world nicer, then of course people are going to go on social media.
• 41:05
  SPEAKER_00: So we need role models, yeah.
• 41:07
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, so important.
• 41:08
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, at the dinner table and you're scrolling and your kids talking to you.
• 41:12
  SPEAKER_00: However, I'm not judging, you know, parents that you know maybe exhausted or maybe you know do need to, maybe it's for their work, there's a lot that goes on behind the scenes.
• 41:20
  SPEAKER_00: But I think going back to your point about you know social media having that facility, my understanding is they do have the facility, uh they are just not responding to their responsibility.
• 41:30
  SPEAKER_00: So they can do it, but it's not in their interest to do it currently.
• 41:35
  SPEAKER_00: Um, for me, that's yeah, that's the sticking issue.
• 41:38
  SPEAKER_04: That's the problem, yeah.
• 41:39
  SPEAKER_04: They're choosing not to.
• 41:41
  SPEAKER_04: And I agree with everything that you both said as well.
• 41:44
  SPEAKER_04: But overall, having spoken to some parents and some teenagers, I think it's gonna be a a huge relief for children that are not forced to keep up with you know everything.
• 41:56
  SPEAKER_04: When they leave school, they can just breathe.
• 41:57
  SPEAKER_04: You know, when they leave school for the day, they can just relax and breathe and just be kids without having to do that.
• 42:03
  SPEAKER_04: And parents have said, now I don't have to inf I can just say it's the law, you know, you don't have to have that battle.
• 42:10
  SPEAKER_04: I think overall it's a good thing, but there are there are um still ways it could be improved, and there are limitations as well.
• 42:20
  SPEAKER_04: Yes.
• 42:21
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, exactly.
• 42:22
  SPEAKER_00: I agree with you 100%.
• 42:23
  SPEAKER_00: You know, perhaps you know, setting that tone will be really helpful um to parents, you know, and that you know, I I have a just anecdotally, um, this is not on research, but just anecdotally, speaking to a lot of um friends with children, you know, and older, so adolescent age, finding it really helpful when the whole group, so when the whole school, the whole class is on board, right?
• 42:44
  SPEAKER_00: No phones, yeah, no social media at this age.
• 42:46
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, um, and parents role modelling, the importance of that.
• 42:49
  SPEAKER_00: So equally, yeah, meaning what they say and saying what they mean um for themselves as well in their own engagement with social media.
• 42:56
  SPEAKER_00: Um, so I agree, Judith.
• 42:58
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, broadly speaking, um, I'm optimistic, but we're navigating very, very different times.
• 43:04
  SPEAKER_00: So uh time will tell, and yeah, let's hope that that pressure stays on social media companies.
• 43:09
  SPEAKER_00: I don't want to vilify them again.
• 43:12
  SPEAKER_00: I think it's um there's a lot of often good intentions there, um, but it needs to be in social media companies' best interest to really start taking more drastic action.
• 43:21
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, I agree.
• 43:22
  unknown: Yeah, yeah.
• 43:24
  SPEAKER_04: Yes.
• 43:25
  SPEAKER_04: Um, so where can we learn more about you?
• 43:28
  SPEAKER_04: So your barefoot coaching and and yeah, everything else that you do.
• 43:34
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, so reach out to Barefoot.
• 43:36
  SPEAKER_00: Um, you know, as mentioned today, I I'm not on social media other than I am on LinkedIn.
• 43:41
  SPEAKER_00: Um, so you can check out Barefoot Coaching.
• 43:44
  SPEAKER_00: Um, I'm a coach there um or on my uh LinkedIn profile.
• 43:49
  SPEAKER_00: So thank you both.
• 43:50
  SPEAKER_00: Brilliant.
• 43:51
  SPEAKER_00: A lovely, interesting and rather meaty topic to get into.
• 43:54
  SPEAKER_00: So thank you both for having me.
• 43:56
  SPEAKER_02: No, thank you very much, and we will head over to Test the Trend.
• 44:05
  SPEAKER_02: On today's test of the trend, this is the challenge.
• 44:07
  SPEAKER_02: So I'm gonna give this to you, Jude, but you can do this as well.
• 44:10
  SPEAKER_02: This is a question prompt for you.
• 44:13
  SPEAKER_02: Think about the last time you scrolled on social media.
• 44:16
  SPEAKER_02: Okay.
• 44:17
  SPEAKER_02: So before you opened whichever app it was to scroll.
• 44:21
  SPEAKER_02: So this is not opening it for Duolingo, opening it for doing something productive, scrolling.
• 44:27
  SPEAKER_02: How did you feel before you opened the app?
• 44:31
  SPEAKER_04: Um you mean emotionally?
• 44:36
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
• 44:37
  SPEAKER_04: Um could be neutral.
• 44:39
  SPEAKER_04: Neutral, that's what I was gonna say.
• 44:40
  SPEAKER_04: Just neutral.
• 44:41
  SPEAKER_04: Just it just filled in a five-minute gap.
• 44:44
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, yeah, okay.
• 44:45
  SPEAKER_02: So yeah.
• 44:45
  SPEAKER_02: Lovely.
• 44:46
  SPEAKER_02: So then when you scrolled, how did you feel after?
• 44:50
  SPEAKER_02: And it can be good or bad.
• 44:53
  SPEAKER_04: Always the same, always annoyed, because it's a waste of time.
• 44:57
  SPEAKER_04: Because I might have had five minutes to fill in, but that that inevitably stretches to half an hour without you even realizing it, and it's annoying.
• 45:05
  SPEAKER_02: That's so it just because this is the point.
• 45:09
  SPEAKER_01: If you are asking yourself, well, what specifically changed your mood, what's the answer?
• 45:17
  SPEAKER_01: It's got to be the wasted time on social media.
• 45:20
  SPEAKER_04: It's a wasted time on social media.
• 45:22
  SPEAKER_04: However, I would take that one step back and go, but that's my fault.
• 45:27
  SPEAKER_04: That's not social media's fault.
• 45:29
  SPEAKER_02: Yes, yes, yeah, and and I think that's really self-aware, which is really, really good.
• 45:33
  SPEAKER_02: But I think that's the point.
• 45:35
  SPEAKER_02: It's not just about what we consume, yeah, it's about what that consumption is doing to us.
• 45:41
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, well, yes.
• 45:42
  SPEAKER_02: We would talk about our health in this way.
• 45:46
  SPEAKER_02: So we would talk about if I'm going to eat 50 cream cakes, that is gonna affect my cholesterol, it's gonna affect my blood pressure, it's gonna affect my body physically.
• 45:57
  SPEAKER_02: That's the same thing.
• 45:58
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 45:59
  SPEAKER_02: Even if we're not talking about what we're putting into our brain, the fact we're even sat there wasting what we could be doing on there also affects our mood.
• 46:10
  SPEAKER_02: So next time you think about your social media usage, whether you want to step back from it or or not, or whatever, it's it's totally okay if it's you're the thing that you want to be doing.
• 46:21
  SPEAKER_02: But think about how overall it affects your mood, and then ask yourself if you don't want to feel that way, what can you do instead?
• 46:33
  SPEAKER_02: I think today's show has left me with more questions unanswered than and I think that's how it's supposed to be, because we haven't really come to the understanding of what is good, what is bad, what is uh us, an us problem, what is a social media creator problem.
• 46:55
  SPEAKER_02: So it's a very I think we need to have these discussions probably to uncover the fact that there are no answers.
• 47:02
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, it and it's re it's a it was a really interesting chat.
• 47:06
  SPEAKER_04: And what I took from it, so now I think about social media a bit like food.
• 47:11
  SPEAKER_04: So social media is there, it's kind of what you do with it and how you consume it, and that's how so you know, yeah, you could eat all the bad food, and then you put weight on and feel awful, and it's the same with social media.
• 47:24
  SPEAKER_04: So it's my fault that I don't put my phone down after my five-minute Swedish lesson and and carry on, but then it's yeah, it's it's I don't know what's gonna come up, and so that's the thing, and it just must change your brain every few seconds according to what you're seeing, yeah, and the dopamine as well, yeah.
• 47:43
  SPEAKER_04: That's the thing that now I'm noticing that so much more than I ever did.
• 47:49
  SPEAKER_02: And it's not completely your fault because social media has conditioned us to want to go on there.
• 47:57
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, I know, it's like sugar, isn't it?
• 47:59
  SPEAKER_02: It is, yes, that's a very nice description of it.
• 48:02
  SPEAKER_02: And I I know because I've got I've got two blockers on my phone because I'm trying a different one at the same time.
• 48:10
  SPEAKER_02: Um, but I know that there's out of the three profiles I use, LinkedIn, Instagram, and Facebook, I actually find it's Instagram that makes me the most depressed, frustrated, negative compared to all the the others.
• 48:27
  SPEAKER_02: LinkedIn, I'm always just answering comments or whatever, so it feels more businessy.
• 48:31
  SPEAKER_02: Yes, yeah.
• 48:31
  SPEAKER_02: And actually I can do that on my computer where it feels more like a business thing rather than on my phone, and it's easier to type.
• 48:38
  SPEAKER_02: Um Facebook, whether it's because only I don't know, people I like are there, I don't know whether it's it's supposed to be, you know, unfashionable now, so it is, but it's still really widely used.
• 48:51
  SPEAKER_02: But it's nice, it feels like a nicer feed on there.
• 48:54
  SPEAKER_04: Okay.
• 48:54
  SPEAKER_02: Instagram, that's where I start the comparison, and I feel much better if I haven't been on Instagram.
• 49:01
  SPEAKER_04: How interesting.
• 49:02
  SPEAKER_04: So you really I could tell from obviously our chat and the questions you were asking that the the the comparison um chat really does affect you.
• 49:12
  SPEAKER_02: It's huge because you start thinking, should I be doing this?
• 49:16
  SPEAKER_02: Should I be you know, and without thinking about the goals that you're you're actually going for.
• 49:22
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
• 49:22
  SPEAKER_04: So that's that's really, really interesting.
• 49:26
  SPEAKER_04: And partly or a big part, the reason why I found that so surprising really is because all I was thinking is, why do you need to you specifically why do you need to compare yourself to other people?
• 49:38
  SPEAKER_04: Because you you're you know, you're doing the the things and you you are excelling at what you do.
• 49:45
  SPEAKER_02: I think actually, and I think I've come to the answer to that.
• 49:49
  SPEAKER_02: So I am working on it, is that I'm doing all the things, but I'm actually not making the most of the things that I've done.
• 49:57
  SPEAKER_02: It's almost like I've written a book and then I'll go and write another book, as opposed to so what I think I get into is I see people who've written one book.
• 50:06
  SPEAKER_02: Yes, they're still talking about it four years later, and that is where I'm saying, why aren't I doing that?
• 50:13
  SPEAKER_02: And but when I ask myself that as a question, not in an angry way, but in a why aren't I doing that?
• 50:19
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, then I begin thinking, it's because I'm not actually capitalizing on everything I have done.
• 50:25
  SPEAKER_02: I'm just posting more stuff.
• 50:28
  SPEAKER_04: Yes.
• 50:29
  SPEAKER_04: So okay, yeah.
• 50:30
  SPEAKER_04: So that makes sense.
• 50:31
  SPEAKER_02: So that's where now I've got a handle on that, I understand that, and I'm gonna start using my my Instagram differently.
• 50:39
  SPEAKER_04: Well, that's really, really interesting.
• 50:42
  SPEAKER_04: So rather than, yeah, okay, so it's sort of so that's where the inspiration comes in.
• 50:47
  SPEAKER_04: So you've been inspired, so but it's partly the inspiration.
• 50:50
  SPEAKER_02: I think it's before the inspiration, it's that bit before of the learning point.
• 50:53
  SPEAKER_04: Yes.
• 50:54
  SPEAKER_02: It's the becoming self-aware, recognising what the actual situation is, yeah, and then being able to use it and deal with it for what suits me.
• 51:03
  SPEAKER_01: And I'm sure I'm gonna upset other people on that, but hey.
• 51:06
  SPEAKER_04: Well, A who cares?
• 51:08
  SPEAKER_04: Who cares?
• 51:09
  SPEAKER_04: And you know, I I don't think you will anyway.
• 51:11
  SPEAKER_04: But but he's Oh, we will always upset people.
• 51:15
  SPEAKER_04: But yeah, I think it's um I think it's good.
• 51:18
  SPEAKER_04: Whereas, yeah, I use social media in a completely different way.
• 51:21
  SPEAKER_04: I don't really care what you know what uh somebody who's doing the same as me might be doing, like, okay, that they they do that, I do me, and and it's fine.
• 51:30
  SPEAKER_04: I don't think I've ever really had that.
• 51:33
  SPEAKER_04: Um but what I will be doing is instead of picking up my phone to scroll for half an hour, I'm just gonna take the dog out instead.
• 51:40
  SPEAKER_04: I'm gonna set myself a challenge because I realized how much time I'm actually wasting through this discussion.
• 51:47
  SPEAKER_04: So that's what I'm gonna do.
• 51:48
  SPEAKER_02: That's why we have these conversations.
• 51:50
  SPEAKER_01: It's like a therapy for us every week.
• 51:54
  SPEAKER_01: And on that, from all of us here, have a healthy week.