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Protecting your religious facility before and during an active shooter attack · Cultural Wars | America Out Loud News

• 0:04
  We are faith and fury.
• 0:06
  Love and fire.
• 0:09
  This is the human equation where every voice counts and every truth cuts deep.
• 0:17
  With your host, Joseph Panker.
• 0:20
  Good evening, everybody, and welcome to our program for this evening.
• 0:26
  This is the human equation.
• 0:28
  I'm your host, Joe Pangaro.
• 0:30
  So it seems that our incidents of active shooters are on the rise in relation to specific attacks on locations because of the conflict going on in Iran.
• 0:47
  I don't know that the things that we're seeing in the last couple of weeks are sleeper cells, but I think they're more like lone wolf people who are attacking.
• 0:57
  And having the attack at Old Dominion University, a Muslim individual, and also the attack in Michigan at the synagogue, points out the need for us to look very, very closely at the safety and security of our facilities.
• 1:22
  So I think I'm going to talk a little bit today about safety and security and assessing your religious facility.
• 1:30
  Now I've talked about this before.
• 1:32
  I do safety and security assessments for physical locations, schools, businesses, religious facilities, summer camps, any place people get together, I do physical assessments of hospitals, health care, all that kind of thing.
• 1:46
  Well, seeing the attack in Michigan today, where the individual drove a vehicle through the front doors and down the hallway and was only stopped by armed security, points out the need for everyone to understand they need to have security in place.
• 2:05
  So I'm going to try and go through the concepts of a threat assessment, and we can talk about what you need to do at your religious facility.
• 2:15
  And I'll give you some ideas.
• 2:17
  And then I think the second part of our get together today, I'm gonna finish touching up on something that we started in a previous episode that I wanted to get back to, and that is understanding ethical behavior.
• 2:32
  I think it I got a lot of response that people had a lot to say about it, they were doing a lot of thinking.
• 2:38
  Uh very, very intelligent points people made emailing me and texting and whatnot.
• 2:44
  So I think uh I think the second half of our program will address that and deal with that.
• 2:51
  So let's look at a couple of concepts.
• 2:54
  So for safety and security purposes, when we look at any facility, no matter what kind of facility it is church, a school, business, hospital, the concept of a soft target is one which is easy to attack.
• 3:12
  That's what a soft target means.
• 3:14
  It's it's got multiple entrances, multiple ways in and out, it doesn't have a lot of security.
• 3:20
  It's vulnerable to attack.
• 3:23
  Now, in the last 20 years, with some major horrific attacks on schools, K through 12 universities, our K through 12 community has done a lot.
• 3:37
  The police and schools have done a lot in many places to make our schools safer.
• 3:42
  They have taken the threat seriously.
• 3:45
  Nobody wants somebody bursting into a school and killing a bunch of school children when they could have prevented it with a couple of different activities, equipment, training, and whatnot.
• 3:57
  So that's a good thing.
• 3:58
  Now, the bad thing is this.
• 4:01
  Not every school district has done it.
• 4:04
  Not every school district has invested the money that they need into equipment.
• 4:09
  There's a lot of grants out there, state grants, homeland security grants that can help you, but it's not easy to write a grant.
• 4:16
  If you've tried to write a grant, you know that it's very cumbersome, they make it very difficult because they want to safeguard the money, make sure it goes to the right place, but they make it very, very difficult.
• 4:28
  So when we understand the concept of a soft target, that means it's a place that it's easy for an attacker to get into, and it's easy for an attacker to take action to hurt people.
• 4:41
  A hardened target is a location that has been reinforced, that has equipment in place, that has staff that are trained, it has technology in place that can help you secure your facility.
• 4:56
  So we have a hardened target and we have a soft target.
• 5:00
  Most of our religious facilities are soft targets.
• 5:05
  Now, our friends in the Jewish community, they have done a lot more than most facilities.
• 5:12
  Now, I'm not talking St.
• 5:13
  Patrick's Cathedral in New York.
• 5:14
  You know, that's a big major location.
• 5:16
  They do what they can to secure that location.
• 5:19
  But your, you know, your local parish church is not very secure.
• 5:24
  Your local synagogue is not very secure.
• 5:27
  Uh you know, there's lots of places where we go to worship that are just not prepared to identify, repel, and survive an attack.
• 5:39
  And that's what we're going to talk about as we go forward.
• 5:42
  So terminology is important.
• 5:44
  So whether you reach out to me, you know, anyone can reach out to me for advice with a question, or if you need an assessment, I can come and help you.
• 5:52
  Uh but the reality is you want to be able to speak in the proper terms.
• 5:56
  So I remember years ago when I started doing this.
• 5:58
  I was trained by Homeland Security when I was a police lieutenant to do threat assessments on the businesses and schools and facilities, religious facilities in our community.
• 6:09
  And I was trained very thoroughly.
• 6:12
  So my evaluations of the safety and security of a place are very, very in-depth, they're very granular.
• 6:18
  I look at many, many areas.
• 6:21
  Specifically, when I look at something, I say to myself, if I was going to attack this location, how would I do it and what would I do?
• 6:30
  And then I work my way backwards.
• 6:31
  How can I secure that?
• 6:32
  How can I prevent from that?
• 6:35
  The other thing that we do is that as safety and security experts, any time there is an incident, we should study it as in-depth as we can.
• 6:44
  Once the reports come out, you know, we should go beyond the news reports and actually see police reports if we can to understand exactly what happened, what took place, how it took place, and who did what.
• 6:56
  That helps inform us on how we can apply any lessons learned from those previous incidents to your facility, right?
• 7:07
  So we have hard target, we have soft target.
• 7:09
  Now we have to understand the concept of, you know, his who is it that's hurting us.
• 7:13
  Well, you have internal threats, and you have external threats.
• 7:19
  The internal threat are the people that we allow into our facilities, no matter what our facility is.
• 7:28
  In the case of a school, that would be the teachers, the staff, the children, the parents, uh, certain delivery people.
• 7:36
  These are people we open our door and let them in on a regular basis.
• 7:39
  They're part of our community, and they are known to us usually, but we let them in.
• 7:45
  The external threat, these are people who are not normally permitted to enter into our facilities.
• 7:52
  They are the people that come to the front door, have to ring a bell, knock on a door, do something to let us know we're there, we evaluate them and then determine if they're safe to let in.
• 8:01
  That's the external threat.
• 8:04
  Well, the same thing is true for our religious facilities.
• 8:07
  We have to consider every facility has the same basic premise.
• 8:13
  The difference between a hospital, a church, and a school, or a business for that matter, is the mission of the facility.
• 8:22
  What is the mission of the facility?
• 8:24
  Because that is often going to dictate how much security we can put in place.
• 8:30
  So if we think about a courthouse or a police station, we can lock those places up tight.
• 8:37
  You can come up to the front window, you can come up to the front door, but there's going to be personnel there, armed personnel, there's going to be screening detectors, metal detectors, there's going to be uh doors and windows that you cannot just enter in through.
• 8:53
  You're not going to walk in through an unlocked door.
• 8:55
  Those are highly secured facilities.
• 8:58
  When we think about our schools, like I said, they're getting better, but I do work all across the country, and while the New York, New Jersey area, Florida, California has done a lot because they they have generally, you know, they have funds for these kind of things.
• 9:17
  What I do see is a lots of other districts across the country that really do not do a lot.
• 9:23
  They do the basics.
• 9:25
  Because the most dangerous thing you can ever say is it'll never happen here.
• 9:33
  That phrase is extremely extremely dangerous to have as a belief in your heart and to have as a uh process by which you try and keep yourself safe.
• 9:47
  So I do uh a podcast for school safety and security.
• 9:50
  It's called Hope is not a tactic.
• 9:54
  And the title in and of itself describes what I've seen many, many schools do.
• 10:00
  They hope that they're never attacked because we don't have the money to put in the equipment.
• 10:05
  We don't have the time to do the training.
• 10:07
  And besides, it'll never happen here.
• 10:10
  So I am sure, you know, at nine o'clock in the morning at the Sandy Hook school, they thought it'll never happen there.
• 10:18
  Even though they did they did practice and do lockdowns and stuff.
• 10:22
  I'm sure at the um at Columbine High School, they never thought something like that would happen there.
• 10:28
  And you can go on and on and on.
• 10:30
  Um, the Stoneman Douglas School in Florida, they never thought anything would happen there.
• 10:34
  And what happens?
• 10:35
  Somebody targets you and they get you.
• 10:39
  So when I go out and I do safety and security lectures teaching on how to secure your facility or do an assessment, the first thing we we talk about are these concepts that it'll never happen here.
• 10:51
  Well, you can't say that.
• 10:52
  So I ask this question for the past 15, 16 years I've been asking since I've been doing this kind of work.
• 10:58
  Is that I say, can anybody raise your hand and tell me when and where the next attack will come.
• 11:09
  Tell me the date, the time, and the location, and I will be there waiting for that person to show up, and I'll be a big hero because I'll save the day, right?
• 11:17
  And in 16 years that I've been asking that question, not one time has anyone ever raised their hand to tell me they knew where the next one's gonna take place because the reality is we don't.
• 11:29
  So statistically, if we look at how many real active shooter events there are, let's say there are 60 real ones, like the like the ones that happened in Michigan and at the other schools around and at the synagogue.
• 11:44
  If there are 50 or 60 of them a year, look at the hundreds of thousands of locations that people go to, the schools they go to, the businesses, right?
• 11:52
  So it's a really a very small number of places that are victimized.
• 11:59
  So you would think, okay, well, then it'll never happen here, is what people think.
• 12:03
  So and we this is what I want you to put in mind.
• 12:07
  Because nobody can ever raise their hand and say when and where the next attack will take place, while the odds might seem in your favor, you know, millions of locations compared to 50 or 60 attacks, the reality is this, either you're attacked or you're not.
• 12:27
  Because we don't know when and where the next one's coming.
• 12:29
  So how can you say, well, we're safe, right?
• 12:32
  No one is safe.
• 12:34
  So we have to be aware and prepared.
• 12:38
  We have to be aware and prepared so that should violence come to us, whether it's a synagogue, a church, school, business, we are prepared to identify the violence coming and to react to it.
• 12:53
  So in the world of active shooters, one of the things that I use is a saying, because sayings are helpful, you know, sayings help keep keep things in the forefront of our mind.
• 13:05
  And when it comes to active shooter and violence like that, uh, what we want to consider is that time equals life.
• 13:14
  Right?
• 13:15
  Time equals life.
• 13:16
  Time is the one factor that if you can increase time on your side, it can help you to see danger coming.
• 13:25
  It can help you react to the danger approaching you.
• 13:30
  It can help you just make decisions on what you could do because you have some time, right?
• 13:36
  You have some time to decide to do I lock down, do we flee, do we fight back?
• 13:43
  So the concept of time equal equals life is very important.
• 13:48
  Alright, so one of the concepts I look at for every location is the concept of approaching danger, right?
• 13:56
  If we can see approaching danger coming at us, that buys us time to react.
• 14:02
  If we don't see it, we don't have eyes on it, we don't have cameras, we don't have uh personnel watching for someone approaching our facility, then they just show up and it's it's chaos because nobody saw them coming and they have free reign.
• 14:17
  If you have a soft target location, they walk right in and they can start attacking.
• 14:22
  So we have to understand that concept.
• 14:25
  Now, when I was talking about the mission of a location, and we know I said a courthouse, a police department can be secure, the mission of a religious facility is by its very nature to be open, to be welcoming, to be loving, so that people feel they can go there to worship their God, seek uh seek connection with other people, get help for things that they need, seek counseling, whatever.
• 14:50
  Uh churches and synagogues are places where people come to feel close to each other and to to their God.
• 14:59
  So we have to have a really welcoming atmosphere, right?
• 15:04
  People have to be able to come in.
• 15:05
  Now I know churches are closed and locked now at times, they never were.
• 15:09
  Churches used to be open 24-7, right?
• 15:11
  You could walk in and pray, but we don't live in that society anymore.
• 15:14
  People will go in and steal things, they will live in the church, they will damage things, the you know, you can't just leave it open 24-7.
• 15:22
  But each each church or synagogue is different on their their open hours, but they're they're pretty open for the most part during the day.
• 15:30
  They have to be open so people can go in and do things.
• 15:33
  So let's talk at um, let's talk about like a mass, right?
• 15:39
  If you're going to church, going to some kind of worship uh location.
• 15:44
  There should be multiple people there on your team that should be trained in a couple of things.
• 15:50
  First, they should be trained in active shooter awareness, which is understanding how these events unfold, what happens during the average active shooter, ways that you can respond to a violent person, the ways you can help other people seek shelter, flee, lockdown, or whatever.
• 16:11
  So that team should be very well trained on that.
• 16:14
  Another thing, every staff everywhere these days really should have, doesn't matter what your facility is, is de-escalation training.
• 16:23
  Because short of a shooter, right, you're not going to talk to a shooter, you're not going to de-escalate a shooter, you're going to respond to a shooter by running, hiding, or fighting.
• 16:32
  Basically, that's it.
• 16:34
  But a person who's less than an active shooter, it's just agitated, upset, potentially violent, you should be able to talk them down, so to speak, and de-escalate them so that they you can have some kind of control to secure the facility, remove them, get them out, get the law enforcement there to buy yourself some time before they go off.
• 16:56
  That's the concept of deescalation.
• 17:00
  Now, I recently did a uh threat assessment for a local church.
• 17:05
  Now, they hadn't had any serious incidents, but they had an incident or two, and with all of the uh activity going on at religious facilities, people shooting up churches, schools, and whatnot, the pastor was interested in, you know, what can we do here to make it safer?
• 17:23
  So one of the first things I said is okay, you have uh a group of men here who assist with the mass.
• 17:30
  They they're the ushers, they are the door personnel, they are uh other people that are there that are part of the church, uh, either as volunteers or paid members.
• 17:41
  Uh you might have them designated as your security team, other people they don't designate them that way.
• 17:47
  They are volunteers that help, you know, with the collection and they help with uh, you know, helping people find seats, all that kind of stuff.
• 17:53
  You can train them and turn them into your uh security team, and what you want to do is you want to limit the locations and places people can get in to your facility.
• 18:06
  That's one of the first things.
• 18:07
  So when I looked at this church, there was the main door into the worship area, into the main part of the church.
• 18:13
  And it was like six, six sets of double doors.
• 18:16
  It was big, big entrance.
• 18:18
  And it was a vestibule, and then there was another four or five doors to get into the main part of the church.
• 18:24
  So you had a vestibule, which is good.
• 18:26
  On the other side of the building, you had a set of double doors that allowed you into the facility.
• 18:32
  You could walk through the facility to get into the main uh worship area of the church, and then you had a I get I don't know what you call a recreational area, but like a bingo hall, and that had a set of double doors on it and a vestibule.
• 18:46
  And during church services, all of these doors are unlocked, so people can get in from the various parking lots.
• 18:54
  Right?
• 18:54
  You think the weather's inclement or it's nasty or it's too hot, or you have elderly people.
• 18:59
  So you can get in from multiple locations into this church.
• 19:04
  Well, that's okay to be able to get into multiple locations of of any place, as long as you have somebody monitoring who's coming and going.
• 19:16
  You have to have eyes on, right, to see approaching danger.
• 19:22
  So one of the first things I offered to the pastor was that instead of having, you know, you have like ten men at this mass, and you got them all at the back main door.
• 19:32
  And basically they're all just kind of watching and making sure, see if anybody needs help or anything.
• 19:38
  Take some of those men and put at least two of them uh on each of the other entrances.
• 19:44
  They should have radios so they can communicate with each other.
• 19:48
  So if they see somebody approaching the building and the person has a weapon or looks suspicious or there's some other problem, they can get on the radio and instantaneously tell the whole team.
• 19:59
  Maybe they have.
• 20:00
  To say, call the police, call 911, help me at door B, lock the building down, whatever it is.
• 20:09
  Radios speed up your reaction time.
• 20:12
  Now you don't have to hear it blasting out.
• 20:14
  You can put those earpieces in that we've all seen, like Secret Service and whatnot, so only the person with it can hear it.
• 20:20
  Right?
• 20:21
  So that's the first simplest thing to do is make sure there's eyeballs on all the open doors so we can see approaching danger, so we have time, time equals life.
• 20:32
  Then the next thing is once you get to the mass starting, then you close all the doors except the main set of doors.
• 20:41
  You close and lock the ancillary doors so that nobody can sneak into the building or enter the building without you knowing it.
• 20:49
  Because if you're gonna leave those doors unlocked and unguarded, you're asking for someone to slip in and have access to your to your people.
• 20:56
  So I suggest locking the door.
• 20:59
  Then take those those personnel that you had at those two doors and put them at the main door, and then lock those doors.
• 21:07
  Now people should be at the outer vestibule.
• 21:10
  And if you see a family running up because they're late for church, you can identify who it is, you can see they're not a threat.
• 21:16
  Open the door and let them in.
• 21:18
  Right.
• 21:19
  This is an active security response.
• 21:22
  But once the mass starts, everyone's attention is on the altar.
• 21:26
  It's on the on the priest, right?
• 21:28
  Or the rabbi, and they're they're watching and listening.
• 21:31
  And we get security personnel that are, you know, involved in other tasks then.
• 21:37
  You know, they're doing collections, they're seeding people, so your manpower goes down.
• 21:41
  So you want to make sure those doors are locked and people are watching the door.
• 21:46
  The next thing you want to make sure of is that all your door glass in all your vestibules and your door entrance doors is secured.
• 21:56
  You want to make sure that it's as safe as possible.
• 21:58
  So one of the things that we can do is there is a clear film, security film, it's called, made by lots of different companies, and you can have this placed on all the glass.
• 22:10
  Now, what it does, it's crystal clear, so you can see right through it.
• 22:14
  And there's a special uh caulking that they put around the edge of it, and what it does, it seals the safety film, the security film onto the glass, and then the glass and all of that is secured to the metal frame of the door or the window.
• 22:30
  And what happens is while I can still shoot through this glass, uh I can't rip it open with my hands, and it doesn't shatter and fall to the ground, allowing access.
• 22:40
  So if you've seen the video of the Covenant School shooting, perfect example.
• 22:46
  The killer walked up to the outside of the vestibule, fired several rounds from a gun through the glass, the glass immediately dropped and fell to the ground, and the killer had access to then walk right into the building.
• 22:58
  Even though the doors were locked.
• 23:00
  Had they had some safety glazing film on those doors and windows, yes, the killer could have shot through it, but it would take a person my size.
• 23:09
  I'm 220 pounds, you know, 5'11.
• 23:12
  Uh, and with a 20-pound sledgehammer, it would take me two to three minutes to knock that glass out of the door to gain entry.
• 23:20
  Two to three minutes is your reaction time.
• 23:24
  You have somebody trying to enter.
• 23:25
  They're violent.
• 23:26
  Now we can make a decision.
• 23:28
  Do we lock down?
• 23:29
  Do we flee, or do we fight back?
• 23:30
  What are we going to do?
• 23:32
  Time equals life.
• 23:34
  So this window film safety glazing is relatively inexpensive.
• 23:40
  There's lots of different kinds.
• 23:42
  Um I have vetted out quite a few of them.
• 23:47
  And one of the ones, the companies that I really like is a company called Smart Tint.
• 23:52
  Smart Tint.
• 23:54
  Uh also they have another uh business name, Riot Tint.
• 23:58
  They make amazing products.
• 24:00
  The people that work there are absolutely amazing, and they can guide you through what you need.
• 24:06
  They have specialty products that have uh they're electrified, and you push a button, and the glass to film on the glass will glaze out, and now you can't even see in.
• 24:15
  Right?
• 24:16
  Amazing stuff.
• 24:17
  Um, I found them um a couple years ago, and I've had a relationship with them because I trust them, and I trust to to pass their name on to my clients and to you, my beloved audience.
• 24:28
  All right.
• 24:29
  So putting safety glazing on there, securing your doors, having personnel in place that have radios, uh, is very, very important.
• 24:38
  At this particular church, they hire a police officer.
• 24:41
  The officer parks outside the main door so everyone can see there's a cop guard air.
• 24:45
  That's a good sign, a visual deterrent.
• 24:47
  And then I noticed that the officer is inside the church.
• 24:51
  He's inside the worship area.
• 24:53
  And I looked at that and I said, Well, you know, why do you have him in there?
• 24:57
  They said, Oh, if anything happens, he can address it.
• 24:59
  I said, Well, that's true.
• 25:02
  I said, but most people uh are going to come up from outside to attack the church.
• 25:09
  It would seem the most logical thing based on previous attacks on places.
• 25:13
  Having the officer outside, they can see the person approaching with a weapon and they can confront the person outside the church, which is optimum.
• 25:22
  You don't want them getting inside having a gunfight with people sitting in the pews.
• 25:26
  Be better that the officers see them and engage them from outside.
• 25:31
  Um, another suggestion I made is take one of those ten people that you have and sit them in a car in the parking lot so that they can see the entrance.
• 25:41
  Now they're sitting there basically like an undercover person, and they can see somebody getting out of their car with a weapon moving towards the church.
• 25:50
  You get on the radio.
• 25:51
  Hey, does somebody with a weapon come and lock the place down?
• 25:53
  Call for help, call the police, call 9-1, whatever.
• 25:56
  All right, so we get the idea here.
• 25:59
  There are ways, simple ways.
• 26:01
  Rearranging your personnel, doing a couple of basic things that you can make your church, your synagogue much, much safer, especially during service times when we are all vulnerable.
• 26:12
  Um, and seeing these attacks, uh, you know, these the synagogue in Michigan, they had security on duty, and it was an armed security officer that basically confronted and killed the attacker.
• 26:25
  So we have to be aware that these people are out there.
• 26:27
  I think these events are going to increase.
• 26:30
  We all have to be aware and prepare.
• 26:32
  We can't be paranoid.
• 26:34
  We have to be safe and secure.
• 26:36
  All right, I'll be back in a minute, and we'll talk about uh maybe a little bit more on morals.
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• 30:40
  Okay, we are back.
• 30:42
  I've already had a bunch of uh texts about our religious facilities securing operation.
• 30:48
  Uh I will do more on other facilities in the future.
• 30:52
  Uh I think it's important that we talk about and we'll talk about some de-escalation techniques that I can present to you on our show that you can start to learn and adopt.
• 31:03
  I think it's helpful for everybody.
• 31:06
  But right now, I want to go back at least a little bit here and talk about.
• 31:11
  We were talking about morals and ethics on a previous show, and I only covered half the material I wanted to.
• 31:19
  So I want to go back to that and take a look at some of the things that some other additional things to discuss, uh, some ideas and things for us to discuss.
• 31:31
  All right, so we're we'll get to that and we'll see what we can do here.
• 31:37
  All right, so let's look at a situation.
• 31:41
  Are does your does your moral ethical bright line, does it shift depending on the situation?
• 31:51
  Are you the same person when people are watching what you're doing as you are when no one's watching what you're doing?
• 32:01
  Now I just got done teaching a corporate program, and one of the things that we had discussed uh a a topic of discussion about morals and ethics was say you're walking through your office building, or you're walking through a shopping center, and you look down and you see a $50 bill on the floor.
• 32:28
  Would you take the $50 bill?
• 32:31
  Now, I get lots of different answers when I ask this.
• 32:34
  A lot of people will say to me, yeah, absolutely.
• 32:38
  Uh finders, keepers, losers, reapers, right?
• 32:40
  They they dropped it.
• 32:41
  Too bad, it's mine now.
• 32:44
  That's been the minority view.
• 32:47
  A few people say that.
• 32:48
  Not everybody.
• 32:49
  Most people, adults anyway, say, uh, I would probably give it to a manager of the store, hey, I found this on the floor, right?
• 32:58
  Who knows who who it could belong to?
• 33:00
  Could it belong to a shopper?
• 33:03
  Could it belong to an employee?
• 33:05
  Could it belong to a customer that, you know, it dropped it when they made change?
• 33:08
  Who knows?
• 33:09
  The bottom line is if you know it's not your $50, you can certainly be comfortable saying to yourself, well, finders keepers, losers, weepers.
• 33:18
  I, who am I supposed to give it to?
• 33:20
  There are a hundred people in this place.
• 33:23
  And that's that's an answer that a lot of people would give.
• 33:27
  I think if we look at that deeper and we say to ourselves, do we want to be moral in in all situations?
• 33:34
  Do we want to be honest and just in what's our integrity?
• 33:37
  Right?
• 33:37
  These are all important factors in these kind of things.
• 33:41
  The reality is it's not your $50 bill.
• 33:44
  While it might be tempting to look around and go, hey, there's nobody looking for it, so I'll keep it.
• 33:49
  I got $50.
• 33:50
  The right thing to do, the ultimate right thing to do would be go to either the counter where someone's working and report, hey, I found a $50 bill on the ground here.
• 34:00
  Uh I don't know who belongs it, but if I lost $50, I might be looking around the store.
• 34:05
  Somebody might come and say, Did anybody lose a $50, I'll find a $50 bill?
• 34:08
  Because I lost one, right?
• 34:10
  Ultimately that's the right thing to do because it's not your money.
• 34:15
  Now, it might feel foolish to do that because, you know, oh, well, the clerk could just steal it then.
• 34:21
  Yeah, they could.
• 34:22
  But that's on the clerk then.
• 34:24
  You'll have done the right and moral thing.
• 34:27
  And then one of the next things we talk about, uh, when I was a narcotics detective, it was not uncommon for us to stop a car and have everyone bail out of the car and go running and leaving in the car their drugs, their guns, and their money, their drug money.
• 34:46
  Sometimes it was a small amount.
• 34:48
  Sometimes it was a lot, right?
• 34:51
  And the question always came up, everybody looked at each other.
• 34:54
  Do you take any of that money?
• 34:56
  It's drug money.
• 34:58
  No one's gonna miss it.
• 34:59
  The bad guy's not going to report it.
• 35:01
  Hey, listen, the cops were stopping me, and I had a load of drugs and guns and money, and I took off, and I think the cop took my money.
• 35:08
  No, the reality is we know no one was ever going to report such a thing.
• 35:13
  But you'd say to yourself, does that make you any better than the criminal?
• 35:16
  Just because it's drug money that no one would ever come looking for, does that make it right?
• 35:22
  And when I asked this question of police officers and people in general, I say, say you were walking through the park, walking your dog, and just off the trail, you see a small satchel.
• 35:36
  And the satchel's partially open, and you look, and it looks like there's money in there.
• 35:41
  And you open up this satchel, and you see a small amount of what looks like cocaine, small amount, and then like rolls and rolls and rolls of 20, 20 bills.
• 35:55
  So your first thought would be, oh, this is drug money.
• 35:58
  Should I take it?
• 35:59
  Should I take the drug money?
• 36:01
  Nobody knows what it is.
• 36:03
  Bad guy probably dumped it when he was running from the cops, and now I have all this money.
• 36:08
  And the the thing that usually changes the conversation is some people say, again, they use, hey, they dumped it there, too bad it's mine.
• 36:16
  And other people say, No, I I would never, it's drug money.
• 36:19
  I would I would give it to the police.
• 36:20
  I would call the police and turn it in, which is the right thing to do.
• 36:24
  It's the right thing to do to turn it in.
• 36:26
  It's not your money.
• 36:27
  And it might be needed for a case, might be evidence in a big case.
• 36:30
  Um either way, it's not your money, right?
• 36:33
  It's sure it's good fortune.
• 36:35
  Look at you, you found this thing of money.
• 36:36
  Say, say it's uh $20,000.
• 36:39
  Who wouldn't like to get $20,000 for no reason?
• 36:42
  Here's $20,000.
• 36:43
  Of course everybody would like that.
• 36:44
  We could all use it.
• 36:46
  But the reality is it's ill-gotten gains.
• 36:49
  Right?
• 36:50
  What I find interesting in the conversation is that, well, I talk about a $50 bill.
• 36:54
  Uh, because $50 is a little more than, you know, obviously, you know, a $10 is five, and it's but $50, no, $50 for most people, $50 bills are pretty big deal.
• 37:02
  So I use a $50 bill, would you take it?
• 37:05
  When we get into this drug money find, the interesting part of the conversation is everybody wants to know, well, how much is it?
• 37:14
  And if I took it, would I go to jail?
• 37:17
  Well, if you if you took it and you didn't tell anybody, you probably wouldn't go to jail, but it's not your money.
• 37:23
  Would it be fortuitous that you found uh money?
• 37:26
  Yes.
• 37:26
  The turning point in the conversation is normally how much money is in the bag.
• 37:33
  And I find this interesting, because if I tell people, oh, it's 10,000, I'm gonna say the majority will say, yeah, no, I I I would turn that in.
• 37:42
  That's drug money.
• 37:42
  I would turn it into the police.
• 37:44
  When I say, what if I say if it's 50,000?
• 37:48
  Uh, you get a few more people to go, oh yeah, 50,000, I don't know, that's a lot of money.
• 37:55
  And what they're saying is that that's a lot of money that we'd be willing to take a risk for.
• 38:02
  Either the drug dealer finding out or the police finding out I took it, uh, IRS finding out I took this money, uh, and doing the wrong thing.
• 38:10
  I'd be I'd be more okay with doing the wrong thing at 50,000 than I would at 5,000 or 10,000.
• 38:19
  And still I get a lot of a lot of people going, no, I would not for 50.
• 38:22
  I wouldn't take a chance of my family for 50,000 and myself and my going to jail.
• 38:27
  I know 50.
• 38:28
  So, okay, what if it's a million?
• 38:30
  What if there was a million dollars in small bills in that bag?
• 38:35
  Would you take it then?
• 38:36
  Well, at this point, I'm gonna say the majority flips, and most people go, well, for a million, you know, a million dollars would change my life.
• 38:45
  Uh, you know, 50,000 would be pretty good too, but a million would change.
• 38:50
  I could buy a house, I could buy a boat, I could pay for my kids' college.
• 38:54
  There's a lot of things I could do there.
• 38:56
  And what I find is that that bright line of ethics and morality starts to dissipate depending on the amount of money that someone could take or get.
• 39:09
  And I think that's that's something you know, if you're listening to me out there and you're going, well, you know, for a million, I I would probably I would probably keep it.
• 39:20
  Then you need to go and look in the mirror and say to yourself, am I a good immoral person?
• 39:25
  Or did I just put a number on my integrity?
• 39:29
  Did I just decide whether I'm a good person, an honest person, a person of integrity, based on a number of money.
• 39:40
  Now, first of all, if anybody found a bag and you could see that there was hundreds of thousands of dollars in it, I think we'd all be lying if we didn't think for a minute, maybe I would keep it.
• 39:55
  Maybe I would keep it.
• 39:57
  You know, that is uh that's such an uh uh
• 40:00
  An amazing thing to have that kind of cash.
• 40:03
  Um, how it would it would change your life, right?
• 40:06
  And money, money is money's the root of all evil, but the reality is is that money makes life easier.
• 40:13
  You know, people uh people want to say that, you know, uh money's not important, money's not important.
• 40:19
  Well, the people that say money's not important are usually people that have enough money to not have to worry about things.
• 40:25
  That's the truth.
• 40:25
  They don't worry about their rent, they don't worry about the electric bill, they don't worry about paying for college, you know.
• 40:30
  Oh, money's not that important, you know, are not people who are struggling to make the rent, not people who are deciding, you know, do uh do we get uh do we get meat for this week, or do we have pasta five days this week?
• 40:43
  Those are the people that you know money is very important, and a lot of it would make your life easier.
• 40:50
  Not better, right?
• 40:52
  Not better, um in a sense, right?
• 40:56
  But money would make your life easier.
• 40:58
  There's no doubt.
• 40:59
  I've been in both places where I had nothing, and place where I've had a lot of work and a lot of luck and a lot of business things go right, and I had a good size amount of money.
• 41:10
  And life was definitely easier when there was more money around.
• 41:16
  You know, do you still have problems?
• 41:17
  Do you still get cancer?
• 41:19
  Do you still have a car accident?
• 41:21
  Do your kids still get drunk and then get involved in stuff they should.
• 41:23
  Yeah, all that stuff still happens.
• 41:25
  All those problems of life still happens.
• 41:28
  But the problem of paying the electric bill, paying the mortgage, uh, paying for the vacation, you want to take everybody on, that that pretty much goes away when you have a lot of money.
• 41:38
  You don't have those kind of problems anymore.
• 41:41
  Um I remember when I had very, very little, that I would say, well, I'd like to have those kind of problems.
• 41:47
  That's a good kind of problem to have, right?
• 41:49
  To have too much money, you don't know what to do, and you can pay for all that stuff.
• 41:53
  But the reality is it's it's an interesting situation when I when I bring that up.
• 41:58
  So I'll tell you a personal story uh out of my life.
• 42:02
  Uh I went out to the store one night, and it was uh, you know, it was dark, be 7:30, 8 o'clock, it was a winter time, and I was uh I was stopped at the corner of a of a highway, a big highway, and a side street, and I was going to turn on to the highway, and out of the corner of my eye, I see something in the gutter.
• 42:25
  And it was fluttering.
• 42:27
  I didn't know what it was, but as I looked closer, I realized they were 10 and 20 dollar bills, a whole bunch of them, and they were blowing in the wind in the gutter, coming my way.
• 42:38
  And I got out of the car and I looked down, and here they are.
• 42:41
  I started picking them all up, picking them up one after another, one after another.
• 42:44
  It was not a huge amount of money, it was probably about a hundred and sixty-five dollars, 165 dollars cash.
• 42:52
  And I remember looking around, it's dark out, it's a highway, there's nobody around.
• 42:56
  I'm like, wow, look at my luck.
• 42:58
  I found 165.
• 43:00
  Who finds 165 dollars, right?
• 43:03
  So I said, okay.
• 43:04
  And I went home and I my my wife and my kids were sitting around the table, and I said, Hey, guess what?
• 43:09
  You know, we got a surprise tonight.
• 43:10
  And I said, here's 20 for you, 20 for you, 20.
• 43:13
  And the kids are like, Dad, where'd you get this?
• 43:15
  I said, I found it on the highway.
• 43:17
  And my wife, always my better half.
• 43:19
  She says to me, What if that's some old lady's grocery money?
• 43:24
  I said, Kathy, how could it be some old lady's grocery money was blowing down the highway?
• 43:27
  She goes, How often do you see 165 blowing down the highway?
• 43:31
  How often does that happen?
• 43:33
  I said, Well, not very often, admittedly, you don't see that.
• 43:36
  You might see a 10, a five, a $1 bill blowing around.
• 43:39
  But a whole bunch of money, that's pretty indicative of the fact that somebody dropped their wallet and it fell out.
• 43:45
  They came out of the food store, which was right up the street, you know, it was it was not close, but it wasn't far away.
• 43:51
  Uh, they could have left their wallet on the roof of the car.
• 43:53
  She goes, that could be some old lady's uh food money for the week.
• 43:57
  And you're just gonna take it.
• 44:00
  And I felt really stupid.
• 44:01
  I was like, well, there was nobody around, there's nobody there.
• 44:04
  She goes, what's the right thing to do?
• 44:06
  And my kids are all looking at me, and I said, Well, the right thing for me to do is to turn it in.
• 44:10
  So I'll go turn it into the police.
• 44:12
  And I did.
• 44:13
  I went down to the local police and I said, Hey, I found this money in the street, and I'll never forget the sergeant looking at me like I had two heads.
• 44:18
  He goes, uh, did you see anybody around the money?
• 44:22
  I said, No, he goes, What are you out of your mind?
• 44:23
  Who am I supposed to do with this money?
• 44:25
  Who am I going to give it to?
• 44:26
  I said, I don't know.
• 44:28
  What don't what if somebody comes in looking for it, right?
• 44:31
  They're not going to find me, they'll find you.
• 44:32
  You're the police, here it is.
• 44:34
  He goes, Well, we'll put it in the vault.
• 44:35
  If nobody claims it in 30 days, you know, you can come back and get it.
• 44:39
  And I said, Okay.
• 44:41
  Now, I marked it, you know, I filled out the paperwork and I turned it over.
• 44:44
  And 30 days later, you know, they called me and said, hey, nobody claimed this money, come and get it.
• 44:49
  So they gave me the money, then I give the kids the $20 bills.
• 44:52
  I felt stupid twice in that situation.
• 44:55
  I felt stupid the first time, that I didn't realize that the right thing to do was to turn it in, that it could be some old lady's grocery money.
• 45:02
  I just didn't think of that.
• 45:04
  Right?
• 45:04
  And then I felt stupid the second time that I could have set a really bad example for my children, right?
• 45:10
  And I'm so I was glad that I did the right thing.
• 45:13
  Um I'm not a bad person, I'm not immoral.
• 45:16
  Uh I wasn't trying to, you know, twist it in my head.
• 45:20
  The reality was it was a dark highway, there was nobody there.
• 45:24
  There were no stores, there was no businesses.
• 45:26
  There were, like I said, there was a store, but it was it was up the road.
• 45:28
  It wasn't right on top of me where I would have thought somebody dropped it coming out of the store.
• 45:33
  But obviously that's what it had to be.
• 45:35
  I mean, what else could it be?
• 45:37
  You don't see 165 blowing down the road.
• 45:39
  And I was glad that I ultimately did the right thing, and my children saw me do the right thing.
• 45:45
  So ethically, sometimes we have to be brought to being ethical and moral.
• 45:49
  Sometimes we make up things that we need to make up so that we can make things go the way we want.
• 45:56
  And sometimes we learn our lesson early on, and then we can pass that on to people.
• 46:01
  All right, so I found that interesting.
• 46:03
  How much money, how much money for you?
• 46:05
  When if you saw a bag like that, um, how much money would you say?
• 46:10
  Well, I wouldn't do it for 10,000, but for a million, I might.
• 46:15
  That should bring into question for you how you see everything else, how you see everything else.
• 46:22
  All right, so I'm I'm trying to think of um any other examples that we could go with work with here.
• 46:28
  I hear here's one.
• 46:29
  And this is not so much about money, because money seems to be the big, you know, thing, but let's look at say you're a coworker, you're working with a uh a group of people, and one of your co-workers comes in and they're intoxicated.
• 46:46
  And the manager didn't notice, they're doing their job, but you know that they're intoxicated.
• 46:52
  Would you say anything to them?
• 46:55
  Would you say anything to the manager?
• 46:58
  Hey, you know, you take a look at Paul, man, he is drunk or he's a high on drugs or something.
• 47:03
  Now, when I asked this question, a lot of people say to me, well, it depends on what job Paul does.
• 47:10
  If Paul is a cashier, long as he can count the money, right?
• 47:15
  Who cares?
• 47:16
  Um, if Paul was a nurse, would I be more concerned?
• 47:21
  If Paul was a police officer, would I be more concerned?
• 47:24
  If Paul was a doctor, would I want a doctor working intoxicated?
• 47:30
  Right?
• 47:30
  Um I probably would not.
• 47:34
  What is the correct thing to do there?
• 47:36
  Is the correct thing to go and tell a supervisor?
• 47:38
  Hey, this person, Mary over here is really drunk and she's at work.
• 47:43
  Uh is that appropriate or not appropriate?
• 47:46
  Uh, just for something to think about.
• 47:48
  Another, another moral question that comes up when we talk about employment and working.
• 47:57
  Has have you ever taken a sick day from work?
• 48:02
  A paid sick day from work on a day that you were not really sick.
• 48:07
  You just wanted a day off.
• 48:09
  And your company doesn't provide mental health days off.
• 48:12
  They provide sick days for when you're sick in bed and you cannot come to work.
• 48:16
  But you decided you wanted to go to the concert, or you wanted to go to the beach, or you wanted to just hang around your house and do whatever.
• 48:23
  You didn't feel like going to work today, so you called out sick.
• 48:27
  Have you ever done that?
• 48:29
  I think if people are being honest, almost universally across the board, industry to industry.
• 48:34
  I have a lot of people tell, yeah, of course I have, you know, I couldn't get the day off, so I called out sick, and they called somebody else in on overtime.
• 48:42
  Here's how I work that one out when I try and think about it.
• 48:47
  I've worked at multiple places where they gave sick time to employees for when they're sick.
• 48:52
  That's a very generous benefit.
• 48:54
  And in some places, the culture of the company from the owner on down was that, yeah, we give you this sick time to use when you're sick.
• 49:06
  But if you need the day off and you put in for it, nobody nobody cares.
• 49:11
  It's your time, it's your time to use or lose.
• 49:13
  So it doesn't matter when you use it, just use it whenever, right?
• 49:17
  If sick day doesn't matter to me, just burn the time before the end of the year.
• 49:22
  Now, if that's the culture of your company, from the owner on down, they're telling you that that's okay.
• 49:28
  I understand it.
• 49:29
  We just call them sick days, they're really extra personal days or whatever, but yeah, I don't mind that you do that, and we we have no problem, we'll call somebody in to cover your shift.
• 49:38
  Okay, then the culture of your employer says that that's okay, right?
• 49:44
  So you're not really doing anything wrong because they're aware that people do it, and they tell you it's okay to do it.
• 49:49
  The problem comes in when they tell you that that's not okay.
• 49:53
  That's there for when you are actually sick, not when you want to go to the concert.
• 50:00
  So, what should happen to you if you call out sick and get caught?
• 50:03
  Right?
• 50:03
  Is there a penalty for that?
• 50:05
  So, a story again for my law enforcement career.
• 50:08
  We had a group of uh officers that like to go to concerts, right?
• 50:12
  Go see rock and roll concerts and this and that.
• 50:14
  And the whole squad was going.
• 50:16
  And this one young officer, you know, put in for the day off and was denied because there wasn't enough people, enough personnel on duty for them to give this person the day off.
• 50:26
  But this cop really wanted to go to the concert.
• 50:29
  So the lieutenant told him no, no, you can't have the day off.
• 50:33
  Sorry, sorry you're gonna miss the concert, but you have to come to work.
• 50:36
  And this kid ended up on the day of the concert calling in and going, hey Sarge, I got a sore throat, I'm calling out sick for this shift.
• 50:44
  Sorge said, Okay, hope you feel better.
• 50:46
  And then the kid shows up at the tailgate party for the concert.
• 50:50
  And who's there but the lieutenant who denied him?
• 50:53
  And this kid didn't think anything of it.
• 50:56
  He and the lieutenant says, Dude, what are you doing here?
• 50:58
  He goes, uh, I'm here for the concert.
• 51:00
  He goes, I denied your day off.
• 51:02
  He goes, Yeah, I know, but I just so I just took a sick day.
• 51:05
  Now, this is morally incorrect.
• 51:08
  First of all, it was clear in our agency that sick days were for sick time, not for when you couldn't get days off, right?
• 51:15
  Did people do that sometimes?
• 51:17
  We knew they did, but it wasn't right.
• 51:20
  And in this case, this this young officer not only did it, but then he rubbed it in the face of the lieutenant who denied him initially, putting the lieutenant in a bad position.
• 51:29
  Now, what's he supposed to do when he knows someone purposely broke the rules?
• 51:33
  Everybody knew it, and the lieutenant should overlook it.
• 51:36
  That puts him in an ethically bad position.
• 51:39
  So the lieutenant had to write this kid up.
• 51:41
  He lost a couple days off.
• 51:43
  Uh it was uh it was a painful experience for him.
• 51:46
  But it maintained the integrity of the lieutenant who's the one who had to make the decision, right?
• 51:52
  What do I do here?
• 51:52
  I told you no, and you broke the rule.
• 51:55
  And I think uh, and there's one more we can talk about uh when it comes to morals.
• 52:01
  Um what about did you ever hear of somebody who got hurt, injured themselves at home, playing sports, falling off a ladder, um, tripping like a dope and breaking a bone, breaking a leg, twisting a knee, doing some kind of injury that would prevent you from going to work for a while.
• 52:19
  Maybe you need surgery, uh, and then doing their best they could the next day to get to work, and then trip in the locker room or trip in the parking lot and say, oh my gosh, I injured myself in the parking lot, because then you're not burning sick time, right?
• 52:36
  Then you're on company time.
• 52:37
  You got injured at the company time, uh, and you'd get to have your surgery, you'd get that you wouldn't burn any of your time off.
• 52:45
  Um, and it would be all on the company.
• 52:48
  You know, they're the rich company.
• 52:50
  Is that okay to do?
• 52:52
  Is that something to do?
• 52:53
  Now, I think we all know that lots and lots of people do that.
• 52:59
  Lots of people do it.
• 53:01
  They get injured at home doing something, and they show up to work, and you know, in the advent of cameras, they walk as best as they can, and then they trip over the car, the sidewalk and they fall down.
• 53:13
  Oh my gosh, my knee, my knee, my knee, and then they you know, they're injured on duty, they're injured while they're working, and everything then falls to the company.
• 53:20
  This is stealing.
• 53:22
  Right?
• 53:23
  Even if everybody does it, it is still stealing.
• 53:28
  And we all know some people who have done that, right?
• 53:32
  Um, and I don't mean to put myself up on a pedestal here is look at me, but that incident with that money blowing in the street really focused me on.
• 53:43
  What if what if I did something like that and my kids found out I did it?
• 53:47
  How would they look at me, first of all, as their father, as a person?
• 53:52
  Then I would be right, I'm then I'm a liar, I'm a cheater, uh I'm I'm all kinds of negative things.
• 53:59
  I'm immoral, right?
• 54:01
  So I used to love playing volleyball, and we had a volleyball league at our local church, and the same group of the same group of 20 people showed up every week, and we played volleyball.
• 54:12
  We played for a few hours, you know, it was always a lot of fun, week after week, every Tuesday night I think it was.
• 54:18
  And we played volleyball, played volleyball, great, and then we would have some some beers in the parking lot afterwards, and it was camaraderie, it was a lot of fun.
• 54:24
  It was it was a good time.
• 54:26
  I enjoyed it.
• 54:27
  Well, one night we're playing volleyball, and we played hard, you know, we played hard.
• 54:31
  We enjoyed it.
• 54:32
  And I went up to to blast a shot across the net, and I hit a great shot, it was exciting, it was fun, you know, part of what the game is all about.
• 54:42
  And I came down at a bad angle and blew out my right knee.
• 54:49
  I mean, I felt it pop when I hit the ground, boom.
• 54:52
  I fell right on the ground.
• 54:53
  I couldn't get up in a matter of minutes.
• 54:56
  My knee was swollen up.
• 54:58
  Gigantic.
• 54:59
  Um, I got home, I iced it down and see if it's gonna get better, and yeah, there's some of these injuries you just know this ain't getting better overnight.
• 55:07
  And I'm hobbling around, I'm hobbling around, I'm like, oh my gosh, I can't walk on this thing.
• 55:11
  How do I go to work?
• 55:13
  How do I go to work?
• 55:14
  What it wouldn't need like this, right?
• 55:15
  And my wife says to me, you know, what are you gonna do?
• 55:18
  What are you gonna do?
• 55:19
  And I said, I'm gonna call the captain and tell the captain that I hurt myself playing volleyball and to put me out on sick time, and I'm gonna go to the hospital and have it checked out and see what happens.
• 55:32
  And she says, Oh, that's the right thing to do.
• 55:35
  That's the right thing to do.
• 55:36
  I said, you know what?
• 55:37
  I've already had three phone calls from co-workers telling me, dude, are you okay?
• 55:42
  Hobble in tomorrow and trip in the parking lot.
• 55:45
  Man, what are you crazy?
• 55:46
  And I'm saying, no, I'm gonna call in sick, and they're telling, no, no, dude, what are you stupid?
• 55:52
  Everybody does it.
• 55:54
  And I said, Well, everybody might do it, but Joe's not doing it.
• 55:59
  I'm just gonna, I'll just take my burning of my sick time, and that's what it's there for, and I'll do the right thing.
• 56:06
  I'll be an example to my children of doing the right thing, right?
• 56:10
  And that's what I did.
• 56:11
  I called out and I was out for uh three and a half months, almost four months.
• 56:16
  I had surgery, and when I got better, I went back to work, and it was as simple as that.
• 56:20
  Um I did the right thing, my integrity was maintained, uh, and I teach that story when I teach uh police officers and business people.
• 56:29
  I talk about that in my ethics program.
• 56:32
  Right?
• 56:33
  So the question, I guess, is are you ethical?
• 56:35
  We talked about a lot of particular topics here of ethics and where do you fit in to that ethical scale?
• 56:41
  Are you an ethical person?
• 56:43
  Do you present yourself as ethical and moral?
• 56:46
  And do you live a life of ethics and morality?
• 56:51
  All right, this is Joe Pangaroff for the human equation.
• 56:54
  We will see you down the road.