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Theodore Roosevelt, "Winning the West, Vol. 3," 1894 · Comps List Radio

• TR Winning the West: From H Pole World Headquarters on the World Wide Web. This is Comms List Radio with Robert Ferguson and Marie Totten. Marie, how are things in in central Arkansas? Are we starting to see signs of winter or are we still in just straight up fall? We're fine. We have our little fall season in Arkansas, and so we're in our fall season. It was in the forties this morning. It'll get up into the seventies this afternoon. So, jacket in the morning. You don't need a jacket in the afternoon kind of time. But it's beautiful. It's finally, finally the weather has calmed down. How is it in Arizona? Still raining? No, actually it's stocked. these the 40 days, the 40 days of rain or 40 days and nights of rain of are over. you know, that arc that I only half built is you know, thankfully it it it it didn't turn out to be necessary. but yeah, I think certain things, you the the weather here is perfect. it it's perfect now and will be until March. It's almost like the whole world comes here for a reason for the next five months. Yeah. that's nice because we're not gonna have that. Right. We're gonna go into a nasty winter. But the good news is is you've got razorbacks football to carry you over for the next month, right? geez. Right. Right. We definitely do. The anger surrounding razorback football is carrying everyone through right now. Fair it up. There's it's a hate match. Exactly. Exactly. If you're listening, Walton family, if you're listening, please do a favor and bail out the Razorbacks NIL, please. Yes. Tyson, we know you do enough, but could you do a little more, please? I've got friends in Arkansas and they desperately need your help. Okay. Yes, I agree. I agree. Please help. And one thing that this week's book that we're going to be talking about has taught us. It's that we don't want people in the West upset. Yes. Yes. And feeling like they're not supported. Exactly. Because the last thing we need the raise razorback fandom to do is to join the Spanish. Right. Right. Right. And there's I hear threats of it. I hear rumblings. Right. Right. Gotta be careful. Silver Leave, he better get Silverfield better get control. Right. I don't know if it's Silverfield or Silver Leaf, but I think it's Silverfield. I think it's Field, yeah. Yeah. anyway. this week we've building on kind of last episode where we went more American studies with Walter Russell Mead and we did Herman Melville's book. but Benito Sereno, this week we're kind of bridging the gap between history and American studies. And we are going back to the nineteenth century to read Teddy Roosevelt's Winning of the West, specifically volume three. the reason for those listening why we chose to do this, we we kind of were we're kicking around this idea, but we chose to do volume three because I you know, I guess it's not one of the well known, it's kind of the least well known of the the four volumes in the history. It's also probably the most political. Yeah. It's less just like we're gonna follow these fighters as they go into the West and track their movements. It's more about institution building. So that's why we chose to do this. also Teddy Roosevelt's interesting and is always is always entertaining. So anyway, Marie, I'm assuming you had not read this before. No, no. I have I have taught Teddy Roosevelt as a significant portion of one of my classes this semester talking about his presidency and his background. I knew he had studied history at Harvard. And I am almost ashamed to admit I had no idea he had written four of these volumes. I knew he had written about the West. but this was the entire set was new to me. So this was a fascinating read. Yeah, I mean, you know, before before we really get into get into it, and we're gonna get into it, folks. Right. As a straight piece of history, understanding it as a as as a night, you know, i in its nineteenth century, you know, form, how would you assess Ketty Roosevelt as a historian? Well, he definitely told a story. So I l he dedicates all of these bo books to Francis Parkman, who was a historian and wrote more like literature, like a y a a novel almost about whatever historical topic he was talking about. And you can tell that some of that tradition comes in. And like you said earlier, it is more of a social history, but it almost reads like a hobby historian. You know, he does some research there. But a lot of this is anecdotal. You don't have sources from Native Americans or women in this text, which of course he's writing in 1894. So that's gonna, you know, other people will write about women and Native Americans if those sources become more available. but interesting, tells a good story, definitely tells a good story, has a lot of opinions and is not afraid to tell you those opinions throughout the story. Yeah, j this might come as a shock to people, but Caddy Roosevelt is not timid. No. No, not at all. He is a very confident, in charge man. He is. He is. I I ha having read you know a fair bit of nineteenth century history, I I actually think he does pretty well. Yeah, historian. I think it's it not only is it a good read, I think his analysis is interesting. He kind of as we're gonna get into here, you don't necessarily have to accept all of the premises that Teddy Roosevelt is building off of to respect the process. Right. And he is trying to do, you know, the eighteen eighties really version of professional history. absolutely. At that point, yeah. Yeah, I don't know that it stands up with a Bancraft, but it's pretty good. Yeah. Yeah. And he's in conversation with Frederick Jackson Turner. he's in conversation with some of these huge historians. And they you know, Turner has two really good things to say about the first two volumes of this set. And so, you know, one of the you know, at the time of the West, one of the most professional historians there is, writes about Roosevelt like he's a professional historian. And he was trained. He was trained. Yep. He he was trained and this reads like yeah, it reads like professional history at the time. Yeah. So we say that to to the for the purpose of we're gonna we're treating this as a history book. Right. Yeah we're not necessarily treating this as literature. Whereas last week we were talking about a work of literature. This week we're talking about a work of history. Right, right. And Roosevelt is at least aping a historian here. Right. And he does a pretty effective job at it. Yeah. I anyway, so I also Marie, you know, we probably you know, I'll do you want to do a biography of Teddy Roosevelt here? Do we have time for a biography of Teddy Roosevelt here? I think I can do it in a few minutes if you'll okay. I'd love you, I'd love you to. Now I again, I spent a lot of time with Theodore Roosevelt this semester. And so I really had to shorten this. So this is my and I worked on this. So this is Roosevelt in brief, is what I've decided here. So Theodore Roosevelt, born into one of the wealthiest families in the country. New York City, old, old money, born in eighteen fifty-eight. He was very sickly. He had to grow up and make himself stronger, and he did. I mean, through perseverance, he became a healthy well healthy fairly healthy considering how bad his asthma was, but a healthy, outgoing, confident man. So in 1880 he attended Harvard. That's where he studied history. he wrote his first book, The Naval War of 1812 in 1882. So he wrote most of this as a student and it became a standard reference at the time. So again, recognized and respected as a historian early on, but he wanted to enter politics after his father's death. So he became a New York State assemblyman. He was an assemblyman from 1882 to 1884. And then extremely tragically, right after giving birth, both his wife Alice and then his mother died in the same house on the same day. And so this really transformed his life. And this is when he goes west. So he goes to the Badlands, he stays there for a while. He's a rancher. And this is where he kind of develops his love for the West that will culminate in this series. He came home after this. He was named to the US Civil Service Commission in eighteen eighty-nine. He was there until eighteen ninety-five. So this is where he wrote the book we're gonna talk about here is while he was in the Civil Service Commission. And I thought that was interesting because he took that job very seriously. It was not just a political appointment, like he's working on civil service reform while writing. while the these massive I mean, they're not too long, but these volumes of important history and doing this research while he's working at this job. And I think that tells you a lot about Roosevelt's personality. Just that he was always doing something. He also gets remarried right before he's appointed to the civil service commission and he will go on to have four more children. So he has five children total. in 1895, he became president of the New York City Police Board and really works on cleaning up New York City. He does a pretty good job at that. So he's named Assistant Secretary of the Navy. He resigns after a couple of years of doing this to fight with the first volunteer cavalry in the Spanish American War. And again, he keeps drawing back to that experience later in his life. he became So he was elected governor of New York in 1899 and he was governor until 1900 when McKinley, William McKinley, asked him to join his ticket as vice president. And then McKinley is assassinated in 1901 and Roosevelt becomes president in 1901. He'll serve nineteen one to nineteen nine. He is considered the first progressive president. He really he's the face of progressivism, even though you've got really important people behind the scenes pushing him to take some of these positions that he takes, but very important president. He tries to come back and run again in 1912 for president. He loses the presidency, but I did find out as a consolation prize, it was in 1912 that he was elected president of the American Historical Association. So he didn't win his, bid for president of the United States. But to us, I think the AHA is just as important. So we he is elected president of the AHA in 1912. And in his, and I think this is relevant to what we're talking about here, but in his kind of opening address to the AHA, he talks about the problems with moving away from a narrative history to a more scientific-based history. And I thought that's interesting because that's when these debates are going on as we get into the 20th century. over whether to write a more narrative anecdotal history depending on important sources valid sources but perhaps fewer sources versus a more scientific history where you're looking for all of that data and spending years and years and years looking for that data. And so he that is how he felt as he was leading, you know, the the major historical association in the United States. And then in January Excuse me, January of nineteen nineteen he dies and so that is the end of my Roosevelt and Breach. Very good. Very good. I tried. No, that that was that was yeah, he's so interesting. I mean, you just cannot get away from how interesting he is. Yes. I in my own work, he kind of he's he's sort of a bette noir in my work. and I so I I have this weird complicated relationship with this guy that I'm now reading and and and gaining a new respect for in some ways, also being totally validated in my opinion, but yet also gaining newfound respect for. Right. so anyway, without further ado, let's get into the book. Yeah. Because so Marie. How do you you know you mentioned his love for the West? Well, actually, look look, let's put some parameters around this. What's he talking about? He's talking about the West here. Right, because when he falls in love with the West, he's talking about the the West in the 1880s. He's not talking about the West in the 1780s. And so the West in the 1780s, he's talking about Kentucky, Tennessee, and the Ohio country. And so That's the West for the United States at the time. So I think this is really smart to to lay that out early on as we're talking because we're gonna use the West because that's how he talks about this. And this is true for the time period, but it's not the West people are thinking of. No, we're not talking about Dakotas. We're not talking about Arizona or even Arkansas. No, we're not there yet. About we're talking about eastern Tennessee, Western North Carolina, Kentucky, parts of Georgia. and the Ohio country. So the Trans Allegheny West. But he is, I think, linking this to the broader West. I think so, absolutely. He you can tell if like knowing about Theodore Roosevelt in advance, you can see his mark all over this. Yeah. Like he is writing in the context of his time. And a lot is happening in the late 1890s. Mm-hmm. Yeah. You know, he he I I I suppose the way that I would describe this book in one word, and it's a word I would use to describe Teddy Roosevelt himself, is nationalist. Yes. Yes. This is a very nationalist work. Yes. And it is it's a nationalism of the of at least the north and the west, and maybe to a lesser extent the south. But it is a nationalist story. And Roosevelt is making a nationalist case. Yes. that the West is an intrinsic and maybe the most important part of the Union. At least a partner in the Union with the East. And that will that's different than a lot of the nationalists that you will see in New England and New York at the time that Roosevelt is writing this. And you can clearly see he's writing for them. Right. He's convincing them like you have to care about the West. Right. And he uses our history and our like he's writing to Americans about America and he wants them to feel part of it. this is your history as well. This is your tradition as well. Right. He has some throwaway line in here. And I wish I'd written it down because I just remembered it now. But he basically says, without the West, the Eastern seat board is like, without the West, it was thirteen independent sovereign states. Right. Maybe plus Vermont. Right. Thirteen sovereign in sovereign states. The West makes it a union. Right. And that's the I think the the those are his stakes here. That's what he's like, those are his real stakes is to make Eastern elites care about the West and not only care about it as, wouldn't it be great to pull resources from here, but to treat them as equal partners. Right. And that's really interesting. I think so. I completely agree with that. Not just, it almost goes beyond equal partners. He's almost saying that if you didn't have the constitution, you didn't have a way to bring these western areas into the country, they would just end up as these little republics that border the United States. And so it would be further danger to the eastern seaboard if they weren't allowed a way to become states. Which is a debate ongoing during that the Articles of Confederation period. Right. He he he's looking at New Englanders and he says, sa says make some comment like, New Englanders then and now have this, while being very important spiritual leaders of the American Union or the American tradition, sometimes forget that other people matter too. Right. Right. Right. And that in fact their interests are actually your. Right. So yeah, you're right. he it's the and and I I think those are his minor, those are the stakes in writing this particular volume. Yeah. Right. But more broadly, feel free to disagree with me here. you're more the Teddy Roosevelt expert than I am. he seems to be making, and and this is where I think. reading it today, we might feel a little differently reading it than somebody in the eighteen nineties, but he's making the case that The grand scope of world history is written by vigorous, powerful people and vigorous, powerful societies. And for the United States to be a vigorous, for the American people to be vigorous and powerful, it requires the the West is a is is determinative for that. That that that vigor comes from the West. That power comes from the West. And without that power, the United States is a meal at a buffet. The American people are a meal at a buffet. Right. I agree with you. But I and I think and that speaks to his sort of Bismarck American nationalism. And that's that's how I read the book anyway. Yeah, yeah. I agree with you. I agree with you. And the powerful, the vigorous, the the vigor that you need to do these things, this was part of his ethos. Yeah. He conquered his own limitations. Exactly. True. Exactly. Just willpower and vigor. Exactly. And he believed that he sort of sees he's not alone in this. He's probably the most he's probably the best embodiment of the American version of this. but that He he he sort of has this notion where societies are sort of have this the the these embodiment of personal characteristics. And I think he could see himself that like without the West, without this vigor, right? I use the word vigor because he uses it a lot. Yes, a lot. You know, he uses it a lot. without it, the America America is sickly. And cannot the American people are sickly and cannot overcome the challenges that are necessary in the world. In a brutal in a brutal world. Right. Right. Which is what he had lived through. just as you said, he had overcome his own limitations and he's putting that in the context of the American people. Well, it's not gonna surprise people listening that maybe Teddy Roosevelt saw himself as the embodiment of the American people. Yes. Yes, he did. Right. He knew what was best. Yes, he did. But I think I but it's more than that. I and I think this is where you see, you know, Teddy Roosevelt is, you know, progressive, whatever whatever you want to call him, right? He does he kind of defies a lot of conventions. Yes, I think. Right. he he truly believes himself to be the embodiment of the American people. And that's not like Jane Adams, or it's not like a lot of the his progressive allies, right? He he really, I think, like a demagogue, sees himself as that embodiment. And we see it all through this book. Yes, absolutely. And again, if people are wondering, Rob, is he maybe the Beto Noir in your work? Yes, he is. Okay. So maybe that's informing my opinion and how I read this a little bit, but I'm trying people. Yeah, if you go into this knowing about Theodore Roosevelt, you just can't help but see him all over this book. And historians today say, okay, we learn more about Theodore Roosevelt the man from this work than we do about the West, because you have such a wide literature on the West now. And I see it. I see it. It's I mean it's again like you said, I learned a lot in this. I'm very interested. there was a lot of really good information, but I learned I learned more about Theodore Roosevelt from this as well. And on some some level, maybe he hears me thinking out loud and that's always a danger. As historians, maybe especially once you reach a certain you know, you've read enough. Isn't that why we read these books? Yeah. To know more about the author, to understand their analysis better, rather than the the actual straight history. Although and and admittedly, I learned about a lot of events and a lot of things that I didn't know about. Right. I mean, the state of Franklin. Yes. Fascinating. Right. So, okay. Let's talk about the book. Yes. Let's talk about Made. Sorry, but go ahead, Marie. Yeah. I just want to build on what you said just for a minute. I think that this is absolutely why we do this, because we give the bios and the context in which they're writing. And so I think it would be a disservice if we didn't talk about the authors and learn about the authors. Right. Right. that's what I get, And I and I'm writing my first book right now. So people are gonna write. I and and I'm the manuscript is due imminently. When I'm fighting myself because my instinct is to just list the information, list the evidence. Right. Right. But I'm trying to overlay my own analysis on it as much as I possibly can in this, in this particular, like these, these edits that I'm doing. Because I realize like most people are, you know, not the not that my I I'm important or anything like that, but like why are you really reading this? You're reading it for my interpretation of the facts. This random person who nobody will have ever met, but their interpretation of the facts. Right. And it's not just one thing that happens after another. And so I I guess now that I've been that I've gone through this process, I can look back and read Roosevelt's book and go, you know what? I kind of appreciate that I'm just getting you. Yeah. I'm getting him, I'm getting Roosevelt. I'm not just getting. And here's what happened in this part of Tennessee, and here's what happened in that part of Tennessee. And here's the anal it it it it it's his own. Right, right. And anyway, I I guess it's again, God knows where I'm I was going with that, but the but the stories are interesting. Yes. The vignettes are interesting. And he's so good at it. Yeah. Yeah. All right. So do you have a particular favorite to make sure we talk about this? I mean, I think the Free State of Franklin is probably the most interesting. But I like that I mean he builds on each section. Like he starts telling us about who's moving into the West and describing the West that he's talking about. So laying like this whole picture out. So you go into the book kind of knowing. if you read volume one and two, you'd know more of the characters because a lot of the characters he writes about, okay, you would already know these people. And some of them I did from history, but some of them I was like, okay, I know them in this context, but not in the previous context. And I'm gonna go with that. but George Rogers Clark would be a perfect example for me. I'll let I do the name what I was talking about. Yeah. I didn't but he's like a really important in the first few chapters that I'm like, man, I feel like he has probably been introduced before this book starts. Yes. Yes. That's Clark was the exact person I was thinking about with that. Because he is so he's so pivotal in some of this information. And he just talks about I'm like, of course you know who this guy is. Of course you do. He doesn't even give him the first two he doesn't he just gets Clark initially. Yeah. Yep. Yeah. And that's how some of these these men are. And so but he lays them out. And so you know him in the context of what he's gonna write about. And he talks about who's moving into the West before the war and then who's in the Revolutionary War and then who's moving into the West under the Articles of Confeder Confederation, how that looks different at different points. And then he really starts talking about in the rest of the chapters what it looks like to create those, if not, I mean kind of in a way. He doesn't talk about them this way, but like proto-governments in these territories where it's up in the air. what the country is going to do with them in total, because the Articles of Confederation don't lay this out. And so it's unclear if they can secede from their states and form independent states. It's unclear if you know, with the free state of Franklin, North Carolina lets them go and gives it to the United States and they form the the little, I mean what they see as a free state. And then North Carolina wants them back. And so it's just this frustration and this tension and this back and forth that you see in each of the areas that he talks about. And each area that he talks about handles it differently. And I think, Kentucky tries to form a government, the f w leaving parts of Virginia. They try to do it legally through the Articles of Confederation and then through the Constitution. you have the Ohio country that's organized from the very beginning because it comes from the the nation itself. It's not settlers moving in and starting their own governments willy-nilly the way we see in some other parts of the West. And then laid out through all of this are Native American this war going on between the frontiersmen and Native Americans. And so you can see in each part of this how that affected people in each of these sections. And so I think it's organized very well. Yeah, it is. Yeah, you're right, it builds on things. And once I started to become familiar who with George Rogers Clark, I started to follow the narrative a little better. Right. Yeah. And you know, so for those who haven't read it, and and this is a thing I really do appreciate about this book, is you know, when hear about the settling of the West, or you hear about the populating of the West or the organizing of the West, e especially in this period. You don't realize how many euphemisms you're actually using. When Roosevelt says winning the West, he means winning through conquest. Yes. Right. And this is a conquest that Roosevelt is describing. And he I I've got a gr you know, he he he describes the violence on the frontier. And Roosevelt's very comfortable describing violence. I mean, that shouldn't surprise anybody. in some ways maybe he's the Tarantino of the 18 of the 1890s, I would buy that. Yeah. He he's very comfortable describing it. you'll get a you'll you'll get a vignette where he'd say, and then and then this guy walked into the wigwam and brained a few people and brained six people with the tomahawk. Right? Yes. And it's just like there's a lot of that. Yep. Right. And it really gives you I think a flavor and again whatever the l whatever the imp the the this the scientific scientific in in in in in quotes limitations are of this is history you get a flavor for the violence and you get a flavor for how what anarchy frankly looks like here. Yeah. But it is anarchy. Yes. Yes. And you have this tension between the militia and the militias in these areas and the regular army. And the regular army is not there in most cases. And so these militias are acting on their own accord. And that increases the violence. There's no there's no stop there in any way. And so in the you're right, you're absolutely right. He it's very vivid. And violence across the board, like not just men it's it's women, it's children, and he is it it's the Tarantino of his era, I think we could go with. Yeah, yeah, we might yeah. I mean, I I'm reading this book. I got two little kids. Okay. At home. And Rihanna, you've got boys of your own. Who they they're old enough, they might be eager for an adventure like this. But you know, hopefully not. but I cannot imagine Taking my kids from some place outside of Virg Richmond, Virginia, or or or or the tide water in Virginia, which listen, we all recognize is a violent place with slavery and those kind of things, but it's settled violence. Or it's orderly. Orderly violent, orderly, violently orderly, something like that. putting them in a flat boat or loading up a a horse, you know, a couple of horses in a carriage. And we're gonna go to the frontier. Yes, there's opportunity. Lord knows there's lots of opportunity. But the scale of the violence and the risk, which is everywhere, all of these men, all of the white men in this book, virtually all of them, had lost kids in Indian raids. Yes. Yes. Right. And Roosevelt talks about how angry and vengeful they are. And I think and this is part of Roosevelt's point that because there's no order in the West, because the East has done a bad job projecting its force to the frontier, these and and Roosevelt, he he sometimes he straight up just calls them like murderers. these you know, the these become the leaders because they're the only people that the others in the area feel like can protect them. Right. It's about protection. The power is about protection. Right. And so the they're constantly not only are they setting up stockades and they're setting up places where they can see Indian war par native war parties, but they're also going on on on you know, rent revenge, you know, vengeance rides, right? Revenge rides all the time. Right. Right. And the opposite is happening from the other perspective. Right. And you know, Roosevelt's, I think he's he's pretty clear and I and I mean he he says, you know, that I understand why the Native Americans are protecting their hunting grounds. Right. Right. At one point he says, he's very clear, he's like, I get why they were doing it. Yeah. And he calls it piracy. And he yeah, he calls what the whites are doing largely piracy. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. He he's taking their side, but he's calling it piracy. And he it's a but it it's it's complicated. He tries to have natives. He does try. it it it his Darwinist framework doesn't, he he's limited by it, but he does try to have sympathy. I've got one quote I'm gonna bring up here. because it's I think it's I think it's good. I think it I think it gets the I could find it and I I think it gets the point across that I'm trying to say of his he has a shoot. Anyway. He has this Darwinist notion again of societies and vigor and that kind of thing. so he he's describing kind of the the fact that this violence and the the whites are are leading a several parties and and and are causing a great deal of misery among the native population. And what he says is this. It r yet it he he he's acknowledging that it's terrible. Yet it remains no less true that the world would have gone forward very little, indeed, would probably not have gone forward at all, had it not been for the displacement and subversion of savage peoples as a consequence of the armed settlement in strange lands of the races who hold in their hands the fate of the years. Every such submersion or displacement of an inferior race, every such armed settlement or conquest by a superior race means the infliction and suffering of hideous woe and misery. It is a sad and dreadful thing that there should of necessity be such throes of agony, and yet they are the birth pangs of a new and vigorous people. That they are in truth birth pangs. does not lessen the grim and hopeless woe of the race supplanted, of the race outworked or overthrown. that's from page 175, 176. I think that sums it up very well. That's a great quote. Yeah. He he he believes it's necessary. Right. Right. He acknowledges that there is pain and suffering, and that both natives and frontiersmen are this this tension is ongoing and both are suffering. He also says that. the eastern states, the the Articles of Confederation governments and the states themselves are signing treaties and then not enforcing those treaties. Right. And so they're not so the if the treaties aren't going to work, the only answer is war. Right. And that's what's going to happen. And he is on the side of the frontiersmen and the conquest, ultimately being what or what should be successful, he's arguing, but still acknowledging that natives are suffering and this is going to they're the ones who are going to be overthrown. So I think you're right about the Darwinism. he is such a person of his time and he can't he can only look so far in the constraints of his worldview. Well, yeah, but it also it part of it it's not just that he's constrained by it, he loves it. he liked to agree with it. Yeah. Yeah. He he he relishes it because he believes that the Americans are a truly vigorous people. And again, I'm using the word vigor because he uses it again and again and again. And I'm putting myself in his in his frame in in his in his head here, that the American people are so are that the Darwinist world requires the American people to be incredibly strong and incredibly vigorous. And it's a good thing they are because they are the ones who are going to who are going to succeed in this Darwinist world. And they're the gr and that's the greatest thing for civilization. So we should probably be grateful that the Darwinist world exists and that allows us the Americans to do so. Right. Right. While still having sympathy. Yeah. Yeah. It's complicated, like you said. It is. they are yeah I I love that you brought up the treaties because yeah, he means he's mentioning that these treaties get signed, but they're they're not even worth the paper they're written on. Right. Neither side is upholding their end of the neither side, yeah. You know, you you're signing with who you think are the Cherokees who are, you know, in charge, but the Cherokees can't control some All the Cherokees. None of them have the ability to control and the American government or the state governments don't have the ability to control the frontiers then. Right. So it's pointless. And you have war. And I think that's the thing that Roosevelt would actually said, like it didn't actually have to be this violent. It didn't have to be this disorderly. If either the Cherokees or the state governments or, you know, Cherokees, Creeks, Chickamauga's, the Shawnees, whomever, could have were able to ha ha it have full control. It wouldn't have been as violent. The result may still have been the same, but it it wouldn't have been as miserable and violent. Right. Right. I think that's his argument here. It's that nationalist argument. Yeah. Yeah. then there's Spain. yes, yes. Yes, treason. The spam the not quite yeah. The tr I mean This is I think my favorite part of the actual book. it's so interesting. And I think it's so much intrigue. This is the thing I didn't appreciate until I'm reading until I really read this book. Other than the violence, that kind of thing. Okay. I didn't appreciate the Tarantino aspects of it. Right. But the separatist movements are everywhere. Yes. Yes. There there's no guarantee that any of these groups are going to be loyal to the union, any of these communities. And they're all looking for the best deal they can get. And that often means dealing with Spain or the British. Yep. Yep. And they weren't they had no reason to be loyal to the Articles of Confederation. They weren't getting that in turn. And the Spanish could offer them at least tr a transportation network along the Mississippi River at the very least, if not some protection. And so they're getting more, even though the Spanish officials are quite corrupt. Yeah. There's lots of bribery. There's lots of lying going on. Light espionage. You know, like so there's a lot going on there. But they are offering more and they have the ability to offer more than what they see coming from the east. Right. I mean, and and that makes sense. I mean, if if you are, you know, in part of modern day Alabama, right? Or you're part, you know, you Where is the what's the closest source of authority to you? man. if you have a local government, maybe a local government, but they're gonna be militiamen. Yeah, they're gonna be militiamen who can't do much. it'd be the Spanish. It's the Spanish in New Orleans. Yeah. Right. Yeah. And so if you're seeking protection or you're seeking trade routes or you're seeking, just any degree of stability, you're gonna look to them. Yeah, and they control the Mississippi, which controls trade. Right. So you need them economically, if not, not only for protection, but economically as well. Yeah. So it's it's and and they've got their own different treaties with with native groups than the Americans do. They have different relationships with the native groups. and so for a lot of these frontier communities, it's a they're they're the ones who make sense to deal with. And the Spanish are, you know, according to Roosevelt. Full of intrigues. you know, and he of course treats them as like a decaying empire. And so as they become more of a decaying empire, they're more corrup the the the host is more corrupt. Right. Right. as opposed to We don't think he comes across as having a lot of respect for the Spanish. I didn't get that from the reading. Yeah. Yeah. No. he hates the British, but he respects them. Yeah. Yeah. He doesn't across. Yeah. He he has little time for the Spanish, which will stand him in good stead given he's about to organize a crew to go to like to go to Cuba. Yeah. And almost get them all killed. But you know, but they will take San Juan Hill. They'll get to the top. Whether they take it or not is a different story, but they will get to the top. Right. Right. the But yeah, th th th there's these the separatist communities everywhere. And that's the real political and that's so much of the political intrigue. Is so many of these groups are like, well, the East doesn't care about us. Maybe the Spanish do, maybe Nita do. We'll be separate, we'll be independent. Right. Maybe we'll we'll be inside of the United States, but we'll be our own state. And and then like, but just how they're not never able to establish control, they're never able to, you know, there's always, you know. There's always people being picked off through bribery or political scandal or or whatever it is. and the state of Franklin that we've talked about a couple of times here. so as Marie said, there's this, at least according to Roosevelt's telling of it, there's a you know, the state of North Carolina says, Well, everything o on the other side of the Appalachian space the we we can't control. So we We we officially control it, we're going to gift it to the federal government, they can figure out what to do with it. the Westerners who are there are like, okay, great, we're gonna set up our own state. We're not gonna wait for the federal government. Because basically, what that means is the North Carolina North Carolinians say, We don't want to send any more protection in here or spend any more resources here. And the federal government has two years to figure out what to do. So the Westerners. Are like, well, I can read the read I I can read the writing on the wall. That means we're fending for ourselves. Right. Right. And again, I the violence of this area is very difficult to well, I mean, appreciate. And so they set up their little bit of the fork. They set up their state, their proto-state. They call it Franklin. They name it after Benjamin Franklin. Benjamin Franklin, yeah. Right. And they tell Benjamin Franklin how honored we are to name the state after you. Yeah. They set up a state capitol. They they they they they allocate funds for a state university. Yeah, yeah. And they're ready to go. There's like three it's three counties in in like eastern Tennessee, very western North Carolina there that we're talking about. Yeah. And you know, Roosevelt initially has a lot of respect for them actually. Yeah, it comes across that way, absolutely. But then it kind of North Carolina goes, Hmm, okay, maybe not. Didn't really think this was what we had in mind. And then there's like dual authority between the state of North Carolina and the state of Franklin, the federal government doesn't really know what to do. Yeah. And because it's the Articles of Confederation. And Roosevelt doesn't have much time for the Articles of Confederation Congress. No, no, no. And then eventually the authority of the state of Franklin kind of collapses into anarchy and it has to be reorganized separately. But it is this fascinating story. they were functioning as a state. Right. Yeah. They had a convention, they had a tax system. largely tax in kind, but they had a tax structure. They had a a fully formed militia with penalties if you didn't and get, you know, you weren't part of the militia and you didn't keep up your weapons. And I mean it was for all intents and purposes, it was a real deal. And I'm glad you yeah. Yeah. I'm glad you said that about Franklin because when they write to Franklin, I thought his response was just, thank you. You need to handle this with the federal government. this is cute. It's good you did this. I I this is I'm honored, but this is not my issue. Yeah, you have my full sympathy. really, you know, very, very politic, like much I'm honored, love it, wish you the best. Yes, exactly. Exactly. Yeah. Maybe this little maybe your whole problems need to be started out with the feds. Your problems with North Carolina needed to be hand need to be handled with the feds. Right. And and of course the state of and then the state of Franklin. so so there's some really just great cast of characters who are associated with the state of Franklin in the book. Sevier is, you know, he needs a movie written about. Yes, and his family is so fascinating because once he becomes governor of Tennessee, he's arrested after the free state of Franklin. What ends up for him as a debacle. I mean, it doesn't w end well for him, but eventually he'll become the governor of Tennessee. And his family will move into Arkansas and they'll be part of the political dynasty in Arkansas. I mean, we have a severe county here. So the Severe is become a really important part of the early political movement in Arkansas because you're moving further west. And those Those younger sons need land and they're enslavers and so they want to move that wealth farther to the, as the West expands farther to the West. They keep going. So they keep this tradition. Yeah, and and this is the the the rather unsavory origins of that. Exactly. Then I had no idea, you I can't teach our history, had no idea that that that's where they came from. And like eats that. This telling he is basically a pirate. my gosh. Yeah. Just not a non-grade guy. No. This is this is so great. This I love this stuff because you you imagine these state like the these guys later in life who are these statesmen who have cleaned themselves up. The gentry now. The gentry now. And their grandchildren probably assume they were Always these moral upstanding citizens, but this guy's basically a horse beef. Yes, yes, yes. And then you know, he he you have Native Americans who are trying to make peace with the area, and he is gonna, you know, lead the attack to kill them, and they're flying under the the flag of neutrality. You know, they're not Native Americans are very clear about what they're there doing. And that's part of the reason he's arrested. Yeah, it's and and Roosevelt this is a great section of the book, actually, because so and again, there's so many vignettes that you're just not aware of, even as a historian. But there's this event that happens that Marie mentioned, there's this so severe or severe, I don't even know how you pronounce it, but he he kind of he has this moment in the sun where he sort of like kind of goes straight, but then it kind of collapses on him. And so, but he continues to be prominent, he continues to exercise militia authority because he's considered this great fighter. Right? He's a and and he is in in his comeback depends, at least according to Roosevelt, on a big Indian war. So he's trying to foment a big Indian war on the frontier, right? And so he has a bunch of followers. And One of his followers is somebody who has been particularly aggrieved by a party of nobody's really sure if it's Creek or Chickamauga's, but he you know, who I'm sure themselves were aggrieved by something beforehand. Right. But his family, including kids' sisters, I think, are are all murdered. And it's a it's a brutal event. And it shapes this kid. And this kid is, you know, he's a young guy. probably sixteen, seventeen, eighteen years old, and he wants vengeance and he's in Sevier Sevier's party. And Sevier at some point there's an event, there's flying under the flag of neutrality and there's a bunch of leaders who are in a in a at a meeting in meeting lodge or something. And Sevier basically turns a blind eye while this kid is allowed to s set loose. Yeah. Yeah. I think the native leader is corn tassel. It's Corn Tassel, yeah. I think so. I was looking for it in my notes. I think it's Corntassel who led that Native American party under the white flag. Right. And yeah, he they slaughter them. Yeah, and Roosevelt respects Corntastle. Yeah. he's an absolute very respected elder. Yes. And Corntastle is at least cordial, the Roosevelt's telling. I I don't know enough about Corntastle to do have an opinion on it besides what I read here. But Roosevelt looks at him as a voice of reason. moderation. He's one of the few that can actually control and exercise leadership over people. And he's murdered. Right. Right. Which is kind of the story of the entire this entire period. Right. And so and yeah, and so and and Roosevelt at some point says, you know, he's like, listen, in fact he he kind of he he compares this to some of the most gruesome events in global history. And treacherous events in global history. And he he he he has a few examples of few the the ones that are escaping my mind, but he he basically says, si severe, Sevier basically said it wasn't him and it was this kid who did it all. And he says, but every leader in history knows. you're you you are accountable for your men. Right. And you put your men in positions to do what you think they're gonna do. Right. And and so yeah, so he goes basically like North Carolina. and can't remember North Carolina or Virginia, but one of them basically has a warrant out for his arrest and and he's got this period. Yeah. North Carolina right, Tipton is his rival, political rival. And Tifton leads a party and brings him to justice and is apparently basically forced it's it's everything he can do to not hang everybody in Tipton. Right, right, right. It's a great story. That's a great story. Yeah, and earlier Severe and Tipton had come to like they had just randomly, you know, they knew they were rivals, they had these two opposing governments, and they had just I like how he said, just happen to come across each other, and they just come to blows. I mean, just immediately. Just it's just such a good way to describe these these characters, yeah. It's Yeah, it and so again, I I think part of the the the the telling of this story is the sense that in eighteen eighty, you think of Kentucky, you think of places like Tennessee. Tennessee's the home of Andrew Jackson, home of James Polk, Andrew Johnson, you know, presidents have come from Tennessee. Yeah. Statesmen have come from Tennessee. Again, this is the eighteen eighties. We can here have quite a bit of vigorous vigor. There we go. Disagreement. thing. I need I need I need a bell, whatever I use that word in this episode. disagreement about, you know, Andrew Jackson as a statesman, whatever else he is. But, you know, in eighteen eighty he was very much considered a statesman. and you know, Kentucky the home of Henry Clay. Yep. Right. Ohio country home of presidents, several presidents by that time. And so I think most people in the East by the 1880s have certainly come to see themselves as J basically the equals, maybe not in New England, but everywhere else in the country basically come to see themselves as the equals that Kentucky and Tennessee and these other these trans-Allegheny states are the equals of them. My goodness, look at the leading statesmen who've come out of them. Not like that disheveled West out there. Right. Montana and South in the Dakota territories and Wyoming and look at those ruffians, right? And Teddy Roosevelt saying, You used to be ruffians too. Yep. Yep. Yep. Right. Your they are who you were. That violence you see out there, that was here. Yeah. Not that long ago. Your great grandfathers are not who you think they are. Right, right. Exactly. So, and again, I think that's part of what he's trying to say here is that this is a really violent place and the people who ended up the leaders were basically up jump bandits. Yep. Yep. Until they, until the East decided okay, they can have equal statehood. And then you have the families move in and then you have the the gentry move in and things are settled. And it's a lot like what we read talked about when we talked about California. the same thing. You have the ruffians first, you have the frontiersmen, the explorers, the men trying to strike at Rich first, and then what they call, civilization as it was described comes in next. Right. And he's saying the same thing is happening in these waves. It's almost like it's Frederick Jackson Turner. Yes, yes. Who he does mention Frederick Jackson Turner had been a little bit critical. I I went into this to see how they were in conversation. He had been just slightly critical of the second volume. And so in the third volume, in a footnote, he mentions Turner and he mentions Turner's frontier thesis, which was relatively new at that point in conversation here. And he doesn't point it out in the text, but in a footnote. So he basically agrees with the frontier thesis that without the frontier, you know, we lose that American spirit. And that's a huge that's part of the American identity. But he doesn't credit Turner in the actual text, which I thought was okay, these men, I would I would be interested. I couldn't find a lot about this, how their rel what their relationship was like. I thought that would be interesting to find out because of the way he uses that frontier thesis in volume three. And cites him. not that he doesn't give him credit for it, but not in the actual body of it's also possible, like he wrote this over five years. Yeah, yeah. This book over five years. Like this comes five years after the first two. Right. So there's a gap. And it's possible that a lot of this was written earlier before the frontier thesis was even mentioned. And so, I mean, part part of that could be like, listen, he wasn't deliberately ignoring Turner. It's just like when he wrote most of the text, it he wasn't even aware of the frontier thesis. And it was only as he was going through it one last time, he's like, yeah, this is kind of important and it's part of it. And the guy was nice to me. I you know, Teddy Ritter is doing other things while while he Yeah, and yeah, quite a few other things, right? And it's not like things are are are it's not like, you know, you've got internet access to everything at all times. It's not like, you know, Frederick Jackson Turner that the the frontier thesis was a world was a great ex post or something. Right. The world became aware of he probably wasn't subscribed to Turner's Substack. Probably not. Yeah. Probably not. He's he's pretty busy. Not morning newsletter. Yeah, exactly. You know, so or who knows how many how many people he was subscribed to. I mean, with William Graham Sumner and all these other great substack stackers at the top. Right. Right. That's a really good point coming back later. You know. Right. Right. it would have been fascinating. Right. What good archive we would have to mine if Substack only existed. Yeah. They'd all the the the problem is they'd all be called notes from an American. Yeah. Yeah. That would be the that would be the title. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. They'd all love that. yeah. So the anyway. but we digress. Anyway. it this was a fun read. I loved it. It was it was so great. I I is there anything else you want to talk about? I mean, I you know, to to kind of you know, you're more the Roosevelt expert than I to to to kind of bring this to to a close. There are two things I just briefly want to mention. One is the contrast between the Kentucky, what will become Tennessee, that part of the West, and then the Ohio country and it being so orderly. And there but he still acknowledges there is a lot of violence there. And there are and there's tension between militias and regul the regular army there because the regular army is more involved in the Ohio country. And so I thought I really liked that you had that contrast and he makes a point to to say if you have the nation involved, this national this ongoing thing of of nationalism, if you have the nation involved, things are going to be more orderly. It's going to work out for everyone. he talks, he has this story in there about a man who's touring the Ohio country and he can ride a flat boat down the river and stay at w in a safe place in the wilderness, but it's nothing like the wilderness of Kentucky. It's nothing like the wilderness of the Cumberland. And so I really liked that. So if anybody out there wants to read this, pay pay attention to that and and pull that out. And then the other is a story that he tells. So Roosevelt had a obsession is probably a little strong, but he definitely had an affinity for Lincoln. And one of his first memories was watching from his window Lincoln's funeral procession through New York City. And he talks about that quite a bit. And he was a little ashamed that his father hadn't fought in the Civil War. And so he had that affinity for Lincoln already. And one of the main stories in here that really jumped out at me is that he's telling the story of these frontiersmen. There's a Native American tax. the father is killed. The younger brother is about to be tomahawked by a Native American. And his older brother shoots the Native American and saves his life. And that younger brother that was almost killed is Abraham Lincoln's father. Yeah. And I just loved that. I loved that story because that is the American story. As these frontiersmen move to the West, you do have those moments where history could have gone different directions. And I like that Roosevelt included that. I'm not surprised based on the man, but I like that he included that story in here. It's a great story. and I don't know. I it's funny, I you mentioned that I I looked that story up and I don't know where else it comes from. The only thing I could find was that Lincoln's personal secretaries had written histories of him in the couple decades after the war. And so by the eighteen eighties, they would have been pretty widely read. And so that's the only and I know Roosevelt would have read them. there's no way he wouldn't have read yeah. And Roosevelt read everything. Everything. he even when he's president, he's reading a book a day. just he is filling himself with knowledge. So I have no doubt he would have read those to know stories like that. Like obviously I haven't looked at those to know if that particular story is in there. But I would bet that that's where he got that was from one of those biographies. Interesting. Well, yeah, anyway, it's a it's a tremendous vignette or anecdote. yeah, and and it is the you know, it's the 1880s, there is this interest in the West, the frontier is closing, you know, there's this focus on it. So I mean it's of its time, it's time it would have been considered very timely, when it was written. And and if you're if you're lecturing on the early republic. or the the revolutionary period or the constitution period. I I think it is actually worth reading this book. for because I I think it will give you an appreciation for the disorder of the West. Right. Right. It'll complicate what you already think. It'll complicate what you already think. It'll also again this is something that I've never I've never liked about the way that it's you know the the the the it's talked about in wood talks about it in In the creation of the American Republic, but the role of the Spanish control of the Mississippi. And there was a really good book that came out recently, Empire of Commerce. I can't remember who wrote it. I'm gonna drive it's gonna it's Masterton. I can't remember her name. I I should have looked it up, but I wasn't prepared for this. it's it's a really good book about the the closing of the Mississippi and the opening of the Mississippi. I can't I can see the front cover, but I can't think of it. Yeah. If if you want to talk about something, Marie, I can look it up for a second here. but I think it's called Empire Commerce. Yeah, Susan Gaunt Stearns. Stern. Okay. Okay. Yeah. And it just came out ru, you know, just just this is a summary from Amazon.com. The book centers on how Spain's 1784 closure of the Mississippi River to American trade created a deep economic and political crisis for the early United States. This book gives you more context for that. Yep. Yep. these would fit those would fit perfectly together. Yeah. And I I I read it when it first came out, that book. I I don't it doesn't quite go into this level of the violent detail, grisly detail, and you don't quite I think get the separatist movements as much in that book. And I don't I'm sure she cites this book though. Yeah. So Yeah. How do you? but Bun Reed. I think so. I'm glad we chose it. random that we chose it, but I think it was worth it. I think it was great. Yeah, absolutely. All right, Marie. Well, have a good day and we'll we'll see you we'll see you next time. That sounds great. Bye. Bye