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It's Not a Party, It's a Debate Team Meeting · Boner and Mirror Tarot

• Molly: Hello and welcome to Bona and Mira Tarot, the delightfully irresponsible little sibling of Bona and Mira Tarot. My name is Molly and every week three Tarot cards will end this podcast. One gets fucked, one gets married and one gets pushed off a cliff. It's childish, it is completely subjective and it is surprisingly revealing because if you know me and you know Bona and Mira Tarot, you'll know that I don't believe the Tarot is about predicting the future. It's a mirror. a way of meeting yourself through symbolism and psychology, embodiment and the wisdom of the cards. And Bona Emeritaro takes exactly the same approach, just with a lot more giggling. put three tarot archetypes through the highly scientific and deeply philosophical game of fuck, marry, push off a cliff. Which archetype deserves your undying devotion? Which one's worth a passionate fling and which one absolutely needs to get into the sea? Along the way, we'll explore what the cards reveal about attraction, avoidance, projection, shadow, values, and the wonderfully strange ways we make meaning. Expect depth psychology, archetypes, embodiments, the odd tantric tangents, and plenty of opportunities to laugh at yourself. And if you want to take the game off the podcast and into your own tarot practice, then I've made something for you. A little field guide called Tarot After Dark. It's packed with ridiculous tarot games, guided reflections, explorations of projection and desire. So you can make your own terrible decisions. and then get curious about what the hell that might reveal about you. you can grab it completely free through the link in my show notes or the link in my bio on Instagram. So whether you're here for the psychology, the Tarot or your own deeply irrational grudge against the Seven of Cups, welcome to Bona and Miratorro. Let's shuffle the cards, suspend our dignity, and see who's getting married today. Hello and welcome back to another episode of Bona and Mira Tarot. I am absolutely gagged, so excited, just so unbelievably grateful to be in the presence of Cassandra today. Thank you so much for joining me and agreeing to come onto the podcast. Would you please tell our listeners who you are, what you do, your relationship to Tarot and meaning making. Cassandra Snow: Absolutely. I'm Cassandra Snow. If you know me or have heard of me, you probably know me from my writing career. I wrote the book Queering the Tarot, as well as Queering Your Craft, Witchcraft from the Margins. also co wrote Lessons from the Empress with Siri Vincent Pluff. And it's so funny that you asked specifically about meaning making for these because that is a book really about tarot for creative purpose, for artistic purpose and for going through that process. And then I very recently edited an essay anthology also for Wiser Books, which is Nine Incredible Tarot Writers plus Me, called Tarot in Other Words, and that is about queer perspectives on Tarot. There's a lot in there about the numerology and how we can queer numbers. And Charlie Claire Burgess wrote a piece on the court cards as interstitial elements, which was just a very cool way to approach that. And so it's a new take on all of these different tarot topics as well as personal essays. So on top of that I have a witchcraft podcast with Siri Vincent Plough called Chaos and Cunning. W season one is out. We do shorter seasons, so it's just ten episodes. And in the first one it's really getting to know us and our magic and what's important to us. And then we start recording season two, which is going to be getting nitty gritty about chaos magic in September, I believe, is when we start recording that. So this will probably be out by then. Yeah, in terms of my life outside of occultism, witchcraft, tarot, meaning making is honestly one of the primary important things to me. I am also a theater professional. I'm an improviser. Currently co-produce and perform in a series of TTRPG Molly: Thank Cassandra Snow: or DD actual plays, s live, which is a different format than a lot of people doing actual play format. So we are doing it Molly: you Cassandra Snow: in front of a live audience. There's no editing on Critical Roll or Dimension Twenty or something like that. We have no one to catch us and we have to figure out how to entertain the audience while our scene partners are doing math with their Molly: you Cassandra Snow: dice. So it's been a very fun and joyful experience that's local here in the Twin Cities. Just follow Titter Pig's productions if you think you're gonna catch a show at some point. Then other than that, that just, I love the way you phrased meaning making and making meaning because that is so core to my essence essential philosophy in all of the things that I do. I will always tell clients I don't know that life is necessarily about finding anything special or meaningful. I think it's about making something special and meaningful and finding things that you love and find joy and fulfillment in but also that are worth fighting for because I do think we're supposed to be making this floating rock a better place than we found it. And so what is gonna give you enough courage and fight to do that? What is gonna be worth it to you? So that's really everything. or not everything, that's a lot of that encapsulated into one very long introduction to myself. Molly: thank you so much. Also, everyone's gonna have to pause the podcast now because I am going to go on a tangent about D &D. How did I not know that you were doing this? Incredible. Cassandra Snow: Thank you. Molly: Yeah, we could just talk about D &D for the next half an hour and it just Cassandra Snow: Yeah. Molly: wouldn't be a podcast episode because I am currently playing a bard and I absolutely love her and I wish that I could come and see one of your kind of live plays because I'm playing a bard and it takes me a long time to think of something witty to say. I like to think that I'm generally quite witty, but it does take me a while. So I can't imagine the kind of creativity and just the, the general awesomeness to be able to do it live in front of an audience. So that is incredible. And yeah one day hopefully i'll be able to come and join you and see you Amazing. Well, this might have to be another podcast episode, or at least maybe after we finish recording, we can nerd out about D &D and theatre. But Cassandra Snow: Yeah. Molly: are you ready to make some potentially questionable choices on behalf of the Tarot? Cassandra Snow: Yeah, I that's yeah, that's what I spend most of my days doing. So why let's do it. Molly: Let's do it. Okay, I'm gonna pull three cards from my deck, which is the Light Seers by Chris Ann. You'll know that by now. Let's see what we get. Ooh, okay. A nice, interesting mix. So we've got all miners. We do have three suits that have appeared. So we start with the five of swords. We then have the Knight of Wands. Cassandra Snow: Okay. Molly: And then finally, the Nine of Cups. Yeah, Cassandra Snow: Nice. That's really nice. Molly: really nice mix. What are your kind of initial impressions, first thoughts? Cassandra Snow: Yeah, this one feels so straightforward up front to me that I'm almost like, what am I missing? I so I would say definitely fuck the Knight of Wands. I feel now I worry a little bit about sexual compatibility between me and the Knight of Wands. I feel as a As a proud top myself, I'm a little like, what is this knight gonna try to bring into the bedroom space? I have concerns, but I feel like they're interesting enough and creative enough and passionate enough and just sexy enough that I feel like I could be lured into just being down for whatever. I feel like it would be an easier seduction, guess. I also feel like, sometimes when you have two assumed tops in the bedroom, you just get creative about what you do. You don't actually try to battle for the top you just do different stuff that doesn't require that. So That would definitely be my fuck option. I also think the Knight of Wands is just more realistically someone I would meet for a hookup. You know what I mean? I'm at arts events all the time. I'm at theater events all the time. The Knight of Wands is probably a creator in some way. They're probably an artist in some way. And so it just seems like that is someone I would run into repeatedly and eventually think, Yeah, why not? I'll give that a go. So yeah. That's my answer for fuck. Molly: I agree with you. I also worry somewhat about the Knight of Wands, generally. if this was a different set of three, he would be questionable to me. he might even, I Cassandra Snow: Agreed. Molly: think he might have been pushed off a cliff in some other episodes. And in certainly in Instagram, we've had conversations around maybe who is the biggest red flag and the Knight of Wands has come up as a bit of a fuck boy energy. specifically Cassandra Snow: Yeah. Molly: because it's in the nights, right? I find the nights to be, I equate them to that kind of teenager energy, which would mean that they think they know, but they don't quite know. they Cassandra Snow: Yeah. Molly: are very yeah, I know what's going on here. And then the moment that it doesn't quite go their way or there's a negotiation around anything. and they feel slightly, out of control and then they're like, God, no, I don't know anything at all. And this was all a mistake. And so that's the energy that like the shadow side of the energy of the Knights, I think generally. And of course the Wands is very fiery anyway. So I, with the three that we have been given, I think that they would be the right choice. I certainly wouldn't marry them for the reasons that I've just described. and there is somebody else who i think is going to go off a cliff and i think we both know Cassandra Snow: Yeah. Molly: i think we both know who that's going to be so i am going to fuck the night of wands as well with some yeah with just the knowledge that they're not going to be the maybe maybe it'll be a wild night of passion maybe it will be like you you were saying sexy enough that it would that that negotiation will be able to happen but maybe not the most emotionally mature good communicator. The Cassandra Snow: Yeah. Molly: post fucking would be a disaster, I feel like. Cassandra Snow: It would be. I also feel like in spite of my own topness and the way that I would be in a situation if this in certain situations like with this, if I knew what I was getting into, if I knew how the Knight of Wands was, I would just set my expectations accordingly for a hookup or a one night stand with them. I would just be like, yeah, I could go see what happens for a night and then just scoot out before breakfast. that's not a big deal to me. I feel like I can adjust in those ways if I know. And I think the thing with both the Knight of Wands and often the Knight of Swords in my opinion is they can or will try to sweet talk you into more but I think that I would just have to know mm they're gonna do that but no but I Molly: Mmm. Cassandra Snow: I also tend to not like younger people and I don't always see the knights as teenagery energy, but I do see them as younger, newer on their path. It's people who in their life paths are doing a lot of stopping and starting. to me that's very representative of post college, early to mid twenties mindset. And so I I feel like for me I would immediately just be like, we are not in the same place for anything more than this one night, and that is fine. Molly: Mm-hmm. Yeah, no, I totally agree. And I really, really like what you said about, knowing. And you mentioned the Knight of Wands and the Knight of Swords. And I'm just going to bring him in the Knight of Cups, because if you've listened to at least one episode of this podcast, that he is my most disliked card. Cassandra Snow: Yeah. Molly: just have an irrational anger towards this card. Don't get me wrong. In the bone and mirror Tarot world where I appreciate his lessons, I get him. On this podcast, find he is that epitome of that sweet talk, right? he's gonna romance you into things, he's gonna pull you in, he's gonna bring the flowers, and then a couple of days later, he's gonna say, no, I wasn't looking for anything serious and ghost you. That to me is like the night of Cups energy in this particular Cassandra Snow: Yeah. Molly: context. Cassandra Snow: that's so interesting 'cause to me that is peak knight of wands. To me the Knight of Cups can be loyal but isn't always. I think it's more like what do you So I think again where I would be safe, because at this point in my life I'm not interested in saving anyone, is I feel like the Knight of Cups maybe does those things, but it's because they're looking for someone to actually save them and get their heart in a position to where they want to settle down. And they do genuinely want that, but then they put a lot on the other person and if you don't meet that, like you said, they're a ghosting, they're a disappearing act. But I do think that in their heart they want love. Now, again, I don't like people who give younger energy, even if they are my age or older, and I don't I I am a double Pisces with a Cancer Rising, but in terms of other things that make us who we are, I'm also the eldest of four. I also have always had when I was working for other people, always, had or was striving for leadership roles, etc. I have strong, strong Aries placements in places like Mars and Venus. So I would simply not go out with the Knight of Cups expecting anything. I would simply be like, We're gonna talk about art. They're gonna make love to me. It's either gonna be good or it's not, and then I'm gonna be the one that is like, Maybe we should see other people the next day because they're just not what I'm looking for. So that's Molly: Hmm. I love that. the way you articulated that for it, for podcast purposes for this particular context is so important. It's like these cards, when the archetypal energy is so clear, then you have to go in with your eyes open and we see the card, we know what it means. Therefore, if we go in with that understanding of the Night of Wands is not going to be my forever love and enjoy it for what it is. then the kind of potential shadow sides, we can't be like taken aback when they Cassandra Snow: Right. Molly: do what we expected them to do, right? Cassandra Snow: Right. Molly: That feels pretty clear. We're fucking the night at Wands, it's gonna be a good night and then bye bye in the morning. Cassandra Snow: That's that's it. Yeah, we're done. One thing that is wonderful about me and the Nine of Cups is that I, in spite of all of that grounding energy from other facets of my life outside of astrology, I am ultimately not even a double Pisces. I have it some other places as well. And I Okay being a little bit Dululu in rose-colored glasses for the rest of my life, which I think is the shadow side of the Nine of Cups. But for me, I almost do want that, right? Because then when you do get into a scrape, you are still trying to see it out and see it through together. And I know some people would be driven insane by a nine of cups partner who is just like Dream big, look on the bright side, but I don't know, I feel like also with the trauma I've been through, I need that. It's almost like someone who really believes in me and belie whether they truly believe I can have those things or not, believes I deserve them. I feel like that would be so uplifting to me that any shadow side we bring up would not dampen that love that I would have for that nine of cups at all. Molly: Hmm, yeah, I have a difficult relationship with the Nine of Cups, which has developed over time, as my relationship with the cards develop, as my relationship with myself develops, Cassandra Snow: Mm-hmm. Molly: that initial contact that I had with the Nine of Cups many years ago when I started reading, I felt quite a strong ick towards it as that dream big. And I was like, no, that's a bit much for me. Cassandra Snow: Mm. Molly: And equally in the Rider Waite Smith depiction, he also does look a little bit smug in some Cassandra Snow: He does. Molly: areas. And that also, was a bit like, I don't understand how the card itself can mean wishes come true and fulfillment when he looks the way he does. So I really battled with it, but the more I lean into certain depictions and certain reframings of the card, The way that I read it now is that you've gone through the unfolding of the suit. You've learned self-compassion. You've learned the meaning of friendship. You've learned how to look past that kind of emotional stagnation and invite the ace of cups again. You've learned about grief, blah, blah, blah. We know the unfolding of the cups. And then you get to the nine and you have this sense of fulfillment from the knowledge that everything that came before was a gift in some way. So then the gift of Cassandra Snow: Yeah. Molly: the nine of cups, all of those cups aren't like, look how amazing my life is, everything's positive and I'm amazing, but wow, look at the depth that I have. And that is the gift. In that particular context, I love the nine of cups, despite the fact that I have had a fairly challenging relationship within the past. So that version of the nine of cups, absolutely, till death do us part, please. Cassandra Snow: Absolutely. And I agree. I think also Another way to interpret the Nine of Cups, especially if I'm reading at an event where I'm seeing people every 10 to 15 minutes and it's just go, go, go. Sometimes the nine the Nine of Cups is my shorthand for clients, for like, the cards are assuring this person that what they wanted me to say is on the table. They just don't have time to get into explaining to me what that might be so I can translate it. And so I will often say to clients. clients, well whatever you wanted me to say to you, that is definitely a thing that is on the table that we see potentially happening. Say that to say as someone I'm married to, that's the energy I need even my friends to bring into a relationship that I also bring into relationships of just well what are those dreams? Let's make them happen. also well what do you want? What do you truly desire? who really are you in your heart of hearts? N there's not a wrong answer. Let's navigate through that together. And I actually feel like that's a really beautiful building block for a marriage. And in some ways it feels like the Nine of Cups is a lot of energy of myself that I like. that I would love to see replicated in someone else. Molly: A little bit of positive self projection there, know, when we sometimes when we talk about projection, we talk about seeing the parts of ourselves that we don't necessarily like and we have to address Cassandra Snow: Yeah. Molly: that within ourselves. But it sounds like we flip that on its head and it's like these are the qualities that I love about myself and the qualities that I would want to see mirrored back to me, which I which I really love. Cassandra Snow: Yeah. Yeah. Molly: So yes, that positive self. projection. Cassandra Snow: Yeah. Molly: It feels like something that maybe I haven't considered so much. I've been working a lot with projection recently doing this podcast because it's really highlight, my God has it highlighted areas where I project loads specifically and I'm going to name them. I'm sorry to the Knights and the Kings. I project onto them all the time. But that kind of positive self-regard or that positive self-projection is really interesting. the cards that I'm like, yeah. Yes, I want that like what parts of myself that I love are they reflecting back Cassandra Snow: Yeah. Molly: to me? I Love that so that leaves us with a very obvious push of the cliff Cassandra Snow: Yeah. Molly: How does that feel five of swords? Bye bye off the cliff? Cassandra Snow: Feels good to me and for several reasons. So because I went into the Nine of Cups, okay, but I know what people are gonna say, so let me address the shadow aspects of this card. I'm gonna do the opposite with this five of swords and be like, okay, if anyone wouldn't, I understand. Swords are so often the intellect, the realm of at all things, mental, logistical, etc. To some people that is a very attractive partner. Even with a more quarrelsome five, even with a more but even a lot of times, the more sunnier, optimistic side of those fives is it's not things falling apart, it's reassessment. It's how can we do better moving forward, etcetera. So yeah, I can see how some people would want a partner that that is the base of it, even if shit is hard otherwise. But to me with the five of swords, I have been through so much in my life, and even if the partner is really great, if they're also bringing this sense of doom, I just can't anymore. I So there's very much that. But the biggest reason for me, of course, pushing the Five of Swords off a cliff is again, I do a lot of rapid fire readings and so this one becomes a quick stand in for there's some form of oppression or someone really trying to keep someone else down coming up on the table. and so My entire life is built around trying to kick oppression to the curb, so why on earth would I court it for my bedroom or my marriage bed? that doesn't even make any sense. So that is the primary reason. It's like, well these are all of the things I do not want. And yes, it there are sunny sides to this card just like there are to all of them, just like there are shadow sides and neutral sides to all of them. But the neutrals of this one also don't thrill me. I'm not someone that needs to be told re to reassess. I even schedule it into my business planning and personal life planning. I'm not someone that needs to be told that. So even the neutral things, I'm like, that's not really doing much for me. I don't know that it would get on my nerves, but it's not something I want or need. Molly: Hmm. Cassandra Snow: And so I think it's not just that it is this stand in for something horrible that I spend most of my life fighting. But it's also like it has sunny sides that I do like, but the neutral sides don't Molly: Okay. Cassandra Snow: excite me at all the way they do for the other two cards. Molly: I love that. Thank you so much for bringing that that neutral aspect in and I when we do this podcast I say it at least every two or three episodes I think as tarot readers people that are interested in symbol we understand that each card has value and lessons and each card is part of human experience however within the boundaries of this podcast, we absolutely are allowed to ignore those and just say, no, get off the cliff. Because even like you said, even the neutral parts of it aren't attractive to you. So that that is really, really saying something. And I and I totally agree with you. And I love to what you spoke, how you spoke about oppression. And particularly within the five of swords, the the key phrase that I like to use when I talk about it is, OK, you've won, but at what cost? Cassandra Snow: Yeah. Molly: And at what cost for me really speaks to this, the wider collective and very, it's got a long history of cognacentrism in specifically the West and how logic and thought and clarity is the dominant way that we think about ways of knowing. And so if it's not logical and it's not well thought out and it's in one of the other categories, which is the wisdom of the body and the wisdom of intuition and the wisdom of the heart, then we might as well not fucking bother. And that is, it's pervasive through psychology, through religion, through spirituality, this idea that anything but logic is, not useful. And specifically in the Five of Swords, we have that, yeah, someone's one, great, but okay, what parts of you have you disconnected from yourself? And for me, that is the reason why he absolutely is going off the cliff. It gives me the feeling of like, The people listening to the podcast who maybe are listening out of curiosity and are like, Tara's bullshit. And I'm like, I'm like, okay, you've won. You're more like evidence-based than me, Cassandra Snow: Mm-hmm. Molly: but at what cost? You lose the Cassandra Snow: Yeah. Molly: whimsy, you lose connection, you lose relationship. And those for me are absolutely not worth the intellectual standing ground, which the five of swords for me really exhibits. So off the cliff you go. Cassandra Snow: I agree, on a smaller scale, you saying that makes me think about how being very steeped in nerd culture as well, and this has gone very out of vogue, thank goodness. But the nerds who will actually you at a party until suddenly nothing is fun anymore and you don't want to be there, it's such a small scale thing, and could I live with that with an otherwise perfect partner? Sure, but if my perfect partner in the nine of cups is on the table, why the fuck would I do that? Why the hell would I ever? and say it's yeah, yeah. Molly: I love that action so much. I'm going to be like magpying that for the Cassandra Snow: Yeah. Molly: smaller details because you do really get that vibe of, well, actually, I think you'll find and you're like, you've Cassandra Snow: Yeah. Molly: sucked all the fun out of this conversation and now I don't want to speak to you anymore. Cassandra Snow: Now it's not a party, it's a debate team meeting that I never agreed to. And I don't want to be here. Yeah. Molly: I did not agree to this. No, I didn't. And I think it also I'm thinking of particular scenarios that this actually is gonna become a real thing for me because I, you like you say thing, you might say something like, I really love this song. And then someone's like, name every song that the band has ever written. You're Cassandra Snow: Yeah. Molly: like, okay, well, I'll never listen to music again then. if I can't enjoy it. Yeah. Yeah. Cassandra Snow: Yeah. I'll just move into a cave. Yeah. Without a radio. Molly: It's the slightly undercurrent dominant pervasiveness of needing to know everything and that knowing everything is the best way to be. Which, for someone who, or for people like us who are steeped in symbolism and the blurring edges of not knowing is for me deeply unattractive. Cassandra Snow: Agreed. It's also someone I think who always thinks they're smarter than you and I have personal it's similar to how you said you have ick with the knights and kings. It's just like anyone that comes into a situation thinking they're the smartest person in the room, I automatically dislike whether they're smarter than me or not. I just Yeah. Molly: We are kindred spirits on this and I've spoken about this in therapy a lot because I Cassandra Snow: Yeah. Molly: was the, maybe still am, who knows, the kind of very young academically bright girl in a school and for a very long time, my academics and my intelligence were the things that made me feel worthy. Cassandra Snow: Yeah. Molly: And, I've developed a love for different aspects of myself during my adulthood, but if someone comes in and they think that they're smarter than me or they, they challenge that, then all of a sudden I'm back in that child space of, whoa, if I'm not... If I'm not cleverer than you, then I'm not worth anything because that Cassandra Snow: Yeah. Molly: was so much of my childhood. And so, yeah, I couldn't agree more that it gives, I can feel like a sense of anger building up in myself as I think about someone who activates me in that way. Cassandra Snow: Yeah. Well, and I also just think in general, people who walk into the room like they're the smartest person in the room, they're not open to true connection. They're not open to spontaneity or joy in the same way. They're not their focus, especially with something like a five of swords, is specifically on The being right of it all and having power because you're right. And when that is all you're focused on, you're closing yourself off to so, so much in life. And I don't even really want to be friends with someone who closes themselves off to that much of life. I'll be Molly: Bye. Cassandra Snow: friends with most people who aren't queer phobic or racist, but I don't wanna be friends with that person. Molly: Mmm, and it comes back exactly to that quote of you've won but at what cost? Cassandra Snow: Yeah. Molly: People who are willing to be right over being connected, that is, yeah. I feel that this has been a fairly easy choice. We're fucking the Nine Cassandra Snow: Yeah. Molly: of Wands, we're marrying the Nine of Cups and the Five of Swords with not even a redeemable neutral quality. can go off the cliff. Cassandra Snow: Yep. Molly: So I've got two more questions for you and these are the final questions in the pod. In your opinion out of the 78 cards, which card is the sexiest and which card is the biggest walking red flag? Cassandra Snow: Really, it's so dependent on the deck for the sexiest. so I have very, very different relationship to the devil than a lot of people because I'm coming from a perspective where I was forced to be closeted for so long at the risk of so many things. And the devil really was coming up a lot in a way that was meant to really put me into a place of sexual desire and romantic desire and I also think when you grow up in a conservative culture like that, any amount of pleasure feels like an indulgence. And so to have a card telling you, actually what if pleasure is fine, even though that is not what so many people get out of the devil, And also to me, it stood in as the opposite of what I was being raised. and so for me, it's almost like a hey, did you know there's a whole wide world out here beyond these four walls of this church you're being raised in? I can show you literally the opposite of these things. And so that has always had a very raw sex appeal to me, in addition to just connotations of the devil and sex and sexuality anyway. and then on top of that, in my spiritual practice, I do work with a lot of folkloric devils. I work a lot with, say, the stranger at the crossroads, things like that, which are very tied to devil mythos as well. In a way that again is very sexy. So I think that's probably my answer for sex or for fuck. this isn't quite what you asked, so I'm just going through my own fuck Mary Kill of the seventy-eight. I think Molly: You do that. Cassandra Snow: Mary for me probably would be the Empress. And I don't but I hardly ever read The Empress as a maternal figure because of a lot of resistance clients had early on in my practice to it. but someone who is that creatively oriented and so good at nurturing the good in you, to to me that is again like what a relationship is. So Molly: no. Cassandra Snow: for me it would be the Empress. I have a book called Lessons from the Empress. I have when I go am going to a gig that they're paying per client. I have an Empress Oil that I put on. It's like we're very connected. But it's not necessarily a card Molly: Sorry. Cassandra Snow: I identify as. So and so yeah. I think again, the positive projection, but I certainly see the negative projections as well. The Empress can be overbearing. The Empress can also think they're right, but in a very different way than the Five of Swords. None of those things are red flags to me. I'm like I've That's people, man. No one's gonna be perfect. Molly: Thank you. Cassandra Snow: So those are things I know how to handle myself in the face of and would not be put off by. So that would be my Mary. I don't know, man. My push off a cliff might actually be the five of swords. Again, that's those ideas in it of oppression or someone else keeping you down are what I spend so much of my life and career fighting against. So yeah. Those are my answers. Molly: you're not the only person to mention the devil as the sexiest card. He has appeared in a few episodes. Sometimes I think one episode he is considered both the sexiest and the biggest red flag in one, which is an interesting discussion, but. So often in my work, obviously I'm interested in sex, symbol, kink, desire. that's the Cassandra Snow: Right. Molly: reason I started the podcast, right? So outside of the podcast, I like to think of the relationship between desire and spirituality, I wrote an essay last year for my my masters, and I was looking at the, the historical disembodiment through the lens of psychology and through the lens of religion and how so much of our collective culture, whether it be scientific or religious, places the body as external from, from spirituality or from the mind, which therefore has given us given, why does society, the idea that the body is inherently wrong, being in the body or being in pleasure is inherently wrong. And so, yeah, the body is is sin. And so then the devil brings us back into that idea that the fuck it's not. The fuck Cassandra Snow: Yeah. Molly: it's not. I literally before pressing record on this podcast episode, posted something on Instagram. So I posted this, well, 40 minutes ago, and I'll just read it to you because I think it's really interesting. So I put Again and again life seems to bring me to the same threshold. Here is the edge of the self you thought you were and would you like to see what happens if you loosen your grip? Sometimes this happens on a meditation cushion, sometimes it happens naked and horny and I'm increasingly suspicious that God cares about the distinction considerably less than we do. Cassandra Snow: I love that that's beautiful, yeah. Molly: Thank you. But it really just hones in on that idea. You said the devil and I was like, yes. I so agree that there's the cultures that we grew up in, what we see on social media, what generations and generations and generations hold in their body is the idea that sex and pleasure is inherently so distant from spirituality. And there's the dichotomy between virgin and whore. that we see not only within the Christian kind of philosophy but has almost pervaded itself into just standard societal understandings of what it means to be like engaging in sex. you're Cassandra Snow: Yeah. Molly: either virgin, pure and closer to God or you're whore and really far away. But actually I think the devil really is the kind of that card that really just questions that and says like, Why does that mean that we're any further away from ourselves from God from from our understanding of life? And in fact, actually it might be the doorway which Cassandra Snow: Yeah. Molly: Which I love so I'm glad that you brought the devil in so a big big Cassandra Snow: Thank you. Molly: Thank you to you and just a big thank you. Generally. It's been an absolute pleasure and a privilege to have your wisdom and your insight and your understanding and your willingness to play my silly little tarot game. So I'm just going to say a massive thank you to you. Cassandra Snow: Yeah. Molly: And I will end the episode here. So a big thank you to you. Thank you to our listeners. Do all the things that you like to do on social media, share, comment, you know what to do with the podcast. And we'll say goodbye for now. Bye bye. Cassandra Snow: Thank you so much for having me. Molly: And that is a wrap for this episode of Bona and Mira Tarot. A huge thank you to my guests for joining me and making some truly questionable life choices on behalf of the tarot. If you've enjoyed this episode, I would love it if you subscribed, left a review or shared it with someone who would definitely have an argument with a tarot card. And if you've been listening and thinking, I need to play this game, then good news, I have made you something. Tarot After Dark is my completely free field guide to desire, projection and questionable relationships with archetypes. Inside, you'll find Fuck, marry, push off a cliff, tarot date, red flag, green flag, unfortunately hot, and a whole collection of ridiculous ways to play with the cards. alongside slightly more serious psychology of why these games can actually tell us something about ourselves. Because sometimes deciding that you'd shag the night of ones is just funny, and sometimes asking why tells you considerably more than you'd expect. You can download Tarot After Dark for free using the link in the show notes or the link in my bio. And if that gets you curious about the slightly more serious side of my work, come and find me at Bone and Mirror Tarot, where I explore Tarot through depth psychology, embodiment and transpersonal practices. You can find me on Instagram at at bone and mirror Tarot, where I share readings, workshops and all the ways that I use the cards as a doorway into understanding ourselves a little more deeply. And finally, if you're listening and thinking I would love to come on the podcast and make some terrible decisions of my own, I would genuinely love to hear from you. Send me a message and let's make it happen. Thank you so much for listening. Until next time, keep laughing, keep getting curious, and remember, we take the tarot seriously, we just don't take ourselves too seriously.