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Selects: Did Shakespeare really write all that stuff? · Stuff You Should Know

• 0:00
  Speaker 1: Hey guys, it's me Josh, and for this week's select,
• 0:03
  Speaker 1: I've chosen our twenty twenty two episode on Shakespeare and
• 0:07
  Speaker 1: whether he actually wrote all that stuff or if there
• 0:10
  Speaker 1: even was a Shakespeare. This episode is actually possibly my
• 0:15
  Speaker 1: favorite episode of all time because I knew nothing about
• 0:18
  Speaker 1: this and I learned a bunch of stuff, and I
• 0:20
  Speaker 1: found it really interesting and it was fun, really fun
• 0:24
  Speaker 1: to kind of turn around and explain.
• 0:26
  Speaker 2: It to all of you.
• 0:27
  Speaker 1: So I hope you enjoy this episode as much as
• 0:29
  Speaker 1: I always have every time I hear it about Shakespeare.
• 0:40
  Speaker 3: Welcome to Stuff you should know, a production of iHeartRadio.
• 0:49
  Speaker 1: Hey, and welcome to the podcast. I'm Josh, and Chuck's
• 0:52
  Speaker 1: on the line. Jerry's here too, and we're about to
• 0:54
  Speaker 1: get jiggy with it about Shakespeare.
• 0:59
  Speaker 4: Can I have this out of the gate? I guess.
• 1:04
  Speaker 2: So.
• 1:04
  Speaker 3: The more we dug into this, you know, I was
• 1:07
  Speaker 3: an English major. We talked very briefly when I was
• 1:09
  Speaker 3: in college about Shakespeare's authorship, right, and I thought, Hey,
• 1:13
  Speaker 3: this would be a fun, little, semi easy episode. And
• 1:20
  Speaker 3: the more we dug into it, the more this onion unfolded.
• 1:25
  Speaker 3: It's onion, this bloomin Onion Unfolded Layer by Crispy Delicious Layer.
• 1:30
  Speaker 1: For all of our Australian listeners, that's what we think
• 1:33
  Speaker 1: you guys eat every night every night.
• 1:37
  Speaker 3: To the point where I was almost like, you know,
• 1:39
  Speaker 3: is this a two parters I mean, you could probably
• 1:42
  Speaker 3: do a ten part episode on this.
• 1:43
  Speaker 4: Oh yeah, it's so dense.
• 1:45
  Speaker 3: So I just want to caveat this for people that
• 1:48
  Speaker 3: know a lot about shakespeare authorship and saying this is
• 1:51
  Speaker 3: a pretty broad overview of the high points of his
• 1:55
  Speaker 3: authorship being questioned, because it is dense.
• 1:58
  Speaker 4: Baby.
• 1:59
  Speaker 1: It's the kind of thing that like extremely intelligent people
• 2:04
  Speaker 1: take on as their like lifelong hobby.
• 2:06
  Speaker 2: It's like that we're.
• 2:08
  Speaker 4: Like, we'll just bust it out in a few days,
• 2:09
  Speaker 4: it'll be fine.
• 2:10
  Speaker 1: Yeah, you know, like how some people are, like they
• 2:14
  Speaker 1: research World War II submarine warfare and know everything about it.
• 2:18
  Speaker 1: It's along the same lines, but it's even bigger. There's
• 2:20
  Speaker 1: so many people involved, and each side is like, you're
• 2:24
  Speaker 1: so naive to the other. And yes, it's true, like
• 2:27
  Speaker 1: we could turn this into a ten part series, but
• 2:30
  Speaker 1: I think we've got a handle on it enough to
• 2:32
  Speaker 1: present it. I feel in okay about it. And then
• 2:34
  Speaker 1: the other thing that sticks out for me, Chuck, is
• 2:36
  Speaker 1: this is one of the few things I've ever come
• 2:38
  Speaker 1: across like this that I am like truly agnostic about.
• 2:42
  Speaker 1: I do not have an opinion one way or the other.
• 2:46
  Speaker 4: I don't know if I do either.
• 2:47
  Speaker 1: Actually, Like, it's not like I don't care, that's not
• 2:50
  Speaker 1: what I'm saying. Like, I genuinely can see both sides.
• 2:53
  Speaker 1: And the other thing about it is, the more you
• 2:56
  Speaker 1: dig into it, the more you realize, oh, neither side
• 2:58
  Speaker 1: actually has really good evidence to support their claim. It's
• 3:02
  Speaker 1: all just they have to get so granular that it
• 3:05
  Speaker 1: really quickly goes into the world of conspiracy theories pretty quickly.
• 3:10
  Speaker 4: Yeah.
• 3:11
  Speaker 3: I saw this video of a guy, this wonderful gentleman
• 3:16
  Speaker 3: who knows a lot about it, that said like, and
• 3:18
  Speaker 3: here's the golden bullet, which proves once and for all,
• 3:21
  Speaker 3: and he made his case, and I was like, no, No,
• 3:24
  Speaker 3: that didn't really prove it once and for all in
• 3:25
  Speaker 3: my opinion.
• 3:26
  Speaker 1: Yeah, for sure, because both sides do things like they
• 3:29
  Speaker 1: get into biographical readings where they're trying to find clues
• 3:32
  Speaker 1: within the text or you know, parallels to his life
• 3:35
  Speaker 1: for that kind of thing. And once that starts, it's like, okay,
• 3:39
  Speaker 1: you guys, you've just completely left the world of objectivity.
• 3:43
  Speaker 4: Yeah.
• 3:44
  Speaker 3: So what we're talking about, if you haven't guessed by now,
• 3:48
  Speaker 3: is this idea that has been around since at least
• 3:52
  Speaker 3: the mid eighteen hundreds, maybe before, about the question of
• 3:57
  Speaker 3: whether or not William Shakespeare was the sole author of
• 4:01
  Speaker 3: all of his works.
• 4:02
  Speaker 4: And this is Shakespeare.
• 4:04
  Speaker 3: From Stratford on the Avon, like that gentleman that we know,
• 4:08
  Speaker 3: became an actor and you know, writer, whether or not
• 4:12
  Speaker 3: he was the sole author, whether or not he was
• 4:15
  Speaker 3: affront for some other authors for some of the works.
• 4:18
  Speaker 3: Some people say he didn't write any of them. Some
• 4:20
  Speaker 3: people said it was various women who weren't allowed to
• 4:25
  Speaker 3: write things at the time. I saw sixty six candidates
• 4:31
  Speaker 3: over the years have been put forward.
• 4:33
  Speaker 2: I saw eighty.
• 4:34
  Speaker 3: Oh really, so there you have it, somewhere between sixty
• 4:38
  Speaker 3: six and eighty something of I know, we haven't.
• 4:41
  Speaker 4: Been accused of writing any of Shakespeare's work.
• 4:44
  Speaker 1: Don't think so. I didn't come across that in my research.
• 4:47
  Speaker 3: But it's an interesting literary I don't even know if
• 4:51
  Speaker 3: I want to call it a mystery, because some people
• 4:54
  Speaker 3: just say, like, no, I mean of course you wrote it,
• 4:56
  Speaker 3: and he was these outsized personal the most famous of
• 5:01
  Speaker 3: the famous are conspiracies are drawn to them. Elvis is
• 5:05
  Speaker 3: still alive, Marilyn Monroe was murdered. Like that happens when
• 5:09
  Speaker 3: you are, you know, one of the biggest icons in
• 5:12
  Speaker 3: your field quite often. So some people say this just
• 5:15
  Speaker 3: that's all that it is.
• 5:17
  Speaker 1: In addition to that, there's a lack of biographical documentation
• 5:24
  Speaker 1: that he actually did write those plays. And I think
• 5:28
  Speaker 1: that that's also what allows for people to say, you know,
• 5:32
  Speaker 1: well do we really.
• 5:33
  Speaker 3: Know or that he didn't write them, Like there's just
• 5:36
  Speaker 3: it was a time, you know, in the fifteen hundreds
• 5:38
  Speaker 3: where there were in sixteen hundreds where there just wasn't
• 5:41
  Speaker 3: a ton of great preserved information.
• 5:44
  Speaker 4: And we're going to talk about a lot of that.
• 5:47
  Speaker 1: So we do know that William Shakespeare did live. He
• 5:50
  Speaker 1: was from, like you said, Stratford on Avon. It was
• 5:53
  Speaker 1: at the time, about a two to three day journey
• 5:55
  Speaker 1: from London, about one hundred something miles I think. And
• 6:00
  Speaker 1: he definitely did live. He definitely did exist. That's not
• 6:03
  Speaker 1: a question because we do have documentary evidence that this
• 6:06
  Speaker 1: person live from fifteen sixty four to sixteen sixteen, about
• 6:11
  Speaker 1: fifty two years and depending on when you place his birthday,
• 6:14
  Speaker 1: maybe fifty two years on the nose, so we know
• 6:17
  Speaker 1: he existed. Again, what's that issue. What's being questioned whether
• 6:21
  Speaker 1: that man William Shakespeare from Stratford on Avon, who went
• 6:25
  Speaker 1: on to become an actor, who went on to become
• 6:27
  Speaker 1: a producer, who worked with in the Globe theater, whether
• 6:30
  Speaker 1: he was the author of the plays we consider written
• 6:34
  Speaker 1: by Shakespeare. That's what's that question.
• 6:37
  Speaker 3: Yeah, So, like you said, he was a real dude.
• 6:40
  Speaker 3: He came from a family that was I mean I
• 6:43
  Speaker 3: kind of read it as a little bit middle class.
• 6:45
  Speaker 3: They certainly were not like upper class nobility types.
• 6:49
  Speaker 4: His father was a glover. He wore well, I guess
• 6:53
  Speaker 4: he wore gloves too, but he made gloves.
• 6:55
  Speaker 2: Allow me to demonstrate, it'd be.
• 6:57
  Speaker 3: Pretty weird if he didn't. That guy won't even wear
• 7:01
  Speaker 3: his own gloves. But he produced these very very fine
• 7:04
  Speaker 3: gloves for well to do people.
• 7:07
  Speaker 4: But he did achieve some.
• 7:10
  Speaker 3: I guess, worked his way up the social chain a
• 7:13
  Speaker 3: little bit because eventually he would serve as sort of
• 7:16
  Speaker 3: like a mayor in Stratford. And again, while not nobility
• 7:21
  Speaker 3: like they were fairly well regarded as people.
• 7:25
  Speaker 1: Right, So we don't know for certain, but there's a
• 7:29
  Speaker 1: pretty good there's a much better chance than not that
• 7:34
  Speaker 1: because of his father's position in town, because they had
• 7:37
  Speaker 1: some money, Like you said, they were middle class, he
• 7:40
  Speaker 1: almost certainly would have been educated at the grammar school
• 7:42
  Speaker 1: at Stratford. So what most people think is that William
• 7:46
  Speaker 1: Shakespeare was educated until about the age of thirteen, and
• 7:50
  Speaker 1: he would have learned things like Latin, he would have
• 7:53
  Speaker 1: learned history, he would have learned some classic literature. He
• 7:57
  Speaker 1: definitely would have been exposed to stuff that whoever wrote
• 8:01
  Speaker 1: Shakespeare's plays would go on to expound on. So he
• 8:06
  Speaker 1: definitely was I can't say that. That's the thing, Like,
• 8:09
  Speaker 1: you really have to be careful what you say about this.
• 8:11
  Speaker 1: I know I was about to say, so he definitely
• 8:13
  Speaker 1: was educated. We don't know that he was. This is
• 8:15
  Speaker 1: all just a supposition, but it's a pretty good bat.
• 8:18
  Speaker 1: It's a good supposition that he actually was educated.
• 8:21
  Speaker 4: Yeah, and all this, you know.
• 8:22
  Speaker 3: The reason that's important is all of this kind of
• 8:24
  Speaker 3: comes back later, as some people say proof that he
• 8:29
  Speaker 3: may not have written this stuff, because like, how could
• 8:32
  Speaker 3: One of the main arguments used many times is how
• 8:34
  Speaker 3: could a kid who came from here have known about
• 8:38
  Speaker 3: these military exploits and the Elizabethan Court and all these
• 8:43
  Speaker 3: different languages and all this hyphalutin stuff that he wrote about.
• 8:46
  Speaker 3: So it's important to, you know, talk about his education.
• 8:50
  Speaker 3: And it seems like he was likely educated pretty well
• 8:54
  Speaker 3: until thirteen, which you know, I'm not even sure if
• 8:56
  Speaker 3: that's earlier or late as far as the time period
• 8:59
  Speaker 3: goes that. Do you know if that was like kind
• 9:01
  Speaker 3: of generally it for kids.
• 9:03
  Speaker 1: It was it was in the middle because he could
• 9:06
  Speaker 1: have just as easily not.
• 9:08
  Speaker 2: Been educated at all, right, of course, but he.
• 9:11
  Speaker 1: Also didn't go on to Cambridge or Oxford to extend
• 9:15
  Speaker 1: his studies, so he was in there in the middle.
• 9:17
  Speaker 1: They think he was probably educated, not highly educated, but
• 9:20
  Speaker 1: also not you know, uneducated.
• 9:22
  Speaker 2: That's that's the.
• 9:23
  Speaker 1: Key, and that if there was evidence he had not
• 9:26
  Speaker 1: gone to school, I think that the anti Shakespeare people
• 9:31
  Speaker 1: would have a real like mark in their favor. But
• 9:33
  Speaker 1: he has just enough education that you can make the
• 9:36
  Speaker 1: case like, no, like this guy, this guy learned about
• 9:40
  Speaker 1: this stuff already, and he could have known about it.
• 9:42
  Speaker 1: And you know, when you add imagination and natural talent
• 9:45
  Speaker 1: you come up with Shakespeare conceivably.
• 9:47
  Speaker 3: Yeah, he got married to Anne Hathaway. You know, go
• 9:53
  Speaker 3: ahead and insert an Hathaway joke there. You know she's
• 9:57
  Speaker 3: a real actor, right, sure.
• 9:58
  Speaker 1: Yeah, devil Waar's pro Princess Diaries. Yeah, big, I think
• 10:03
  Speaker 1: she was in Inception? No? No, was she Interstellar? Yes,
• 10:09
  Speaker 1: she did a stellar job in Interstellar.
• 10:12
  Speaker 2: Come on.
• 10:13
  Speaker 3: They got married when he was quite a bit younger.
• 10:17
  Speaker 3: She was twenty six, he was eighteen. She was pregnant,
• 10:21
  Speaker 3: which is probably a little unusual for the time. They
• 10:24
  Speaker 3: had a daughter named Susannah, and then had twins, a
• 10:27
  Speaker 3: boy and a girl twin, and the boy named Hamnet,
• 10:31
  Speaker 3: not Hamlet but Hamnett.
• 10:33
  Speaker 1: Yeah, which apparently they've never turned up another use of
• 10:35
  Speaker 1: that name in at the time.
• 10:39
  Speaker 3: Proof he was eleven years old when he died, And
• 10:44
  Speaker 3: that kind of comes into play later on as well.
• 10:49
  Speaker 3: And then there's about a you know, from fifteen eighty
• 10:51
  Speaker 3: five to about fifteen ninety two, there's about a seven
• 10:54
  Speaker 3: year gap where we don't know a lot about what
• 10:58
  Speaker 3: was going on with Shakespeare, and then he pops up,
• 11:01
  Speaker 3: which a lot can happen in seven years. Again, not
• 11:04
  Speaker 3: trying to sway people, one way or the other. But
• 11:07
  Speaker 3: you can certainly learn a lot in seven years if
• 11:09
  Speaker 3: you have some big life experiences. But he pops up
• 11:13
  Speaker 3: in London in fifteen ninety two, again as far as
• 11:15
  Speaker 3: the record go goes, and you know, keep in mind,
• 11:19
  Speaker 3: a lot of this record before he was known in
• 11:23
  Speaker 3: his lifetime as an author, was you know, just kind
• 11:26
  Speaker 3: of not flimsy, but just not a lot of stuff
• 11:29
  Speaker 3: like various little lawsuits and mortgages and sort of banking
• 11:33
  Speaker 3: records and stuff like that, right.
• 11:35
  Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, And also I mean, like that's about as
• 11:39
  Speaker 1: much documentation as you would be able to come up
• 11:41
  Speaker 1: with on most people. And you can make a case
• 11:45
  Speaker 1: that there's more documentation on Shakespeare than most other people
• 11:48
  Speaker 1: who weren't nobility right of his era. That's because there's
• 11:53
  Speaker 1: been so much scholarship and study and research into his
• 11:57
  Speaker 1: life that they've turned up as much as they can.
• 12:01
  Speaker 1: But what they've turned up only amounts to about five
• 12:04
  Speaker 1: hundred different pieces of documentation of one form or another.
• 12:09
  Speaker 4: Right.
• 12:10
  Speaker 3: So one of those pieces of documentation in early on
• 12:15
  Speaker 3: in London is a pamphlet written by generally believed to
• 12:20
  Speaker 3: be written by this guy named Robert Green. There were
• 12:21
  Speaker 3: some other people that could have possibly written it. But
• 12:24
  Speaker 3: it's called Green's groatsworth of wit. And there's a line
• 12:28
  Speaker 3: where he references Shakespeare in it in a contemporaneous fashion.
• 12:34
  Speaker 2: Is that right.
• 12:38
  Speaker 4: Where he kind of takes a shot out of him.
• 12:40
  Speaker 3: He says it talks about Shakespeare, says there's an upstart
• 12:43
  Speaker 3: crow in his own conceit the only shake scene in
• 12:48
  Speaker 3: a country, which kind of translates into he kind of
• 12:51
  Speaker 3: thinks he's the only Shakespeare like he thinks he's all that,
• 12:55
  Speaker 3: and it should be noted also as far as the
• 12:59
  Speaker 3: thievery that in Aesop's Fables, crows I would steal the
• 13:03
  Speaker 3: feathers of others. So the people in the I don't
• 13:07
  Speaker 3: want to say anti Shakespeare, but the people say that
• 13:08
  Speaker 3: he might not have written these things. Says this is
• 13:11
  Speaker 3: a big clue and saying that he might have stolen
• 13:14
  Speaker 3: some of these things. That's why he's referred to as
• 13:16
  Speaker 3: a crow by this other guy.
• 13:18
  Speaker 1: Yeah, but in that that quote, he says, the upstart
• 13:24
  Speaker 1: crow is beautified with our feathers, and he's a playwright.
• 13:28
  Speaker 1: So the pro Shakespeare people, you call them the pro
• 13:31
  Speaker 1: Stratford group, they suggest that what he's what Green is
• 13:36
  Speaker 1: talking about, is he's he's poking fun at a common
• 13:39
  Speaker 1: actor who is deigning to even attempt to write plays,
• 13:44
  Speaker 1: which you know, among playwrights is far more important than acting.
• 13:48
  Speaker 1: Anybody can act, but it really takes something to write
• 13:50
  Speaker 1: a play, at least that's what they thought at the time,
• 13:53
  Speaker 1: and that he's taking a shot at him for that.
• 13:56
  Speaker 3: Yeah, and we should point out that being an actor
• 13:59
  Speaker 3: back then and being a part of the theater was
• 14:01
  Speaker 3: not like it is today.
• 14:02
  Speaker 4: It wasn't some revered position.
• 14:06
  Speaker 3: It was sort of you know, body plays and common
• 14:09
  Speaker 3: people were into this kind of thing, so it wasn't
• 14:12
  Speaker 3: when he says he was just an actor.
• 14:14
  Speaker 4: That's a pretty big diss right.
• 14:17
  Speaker 1: So the last thing that we have, I guess the
• 14:19
  Speaker 1: last documentation, although there's other stuff that's been turned up.
• 14:22
  Speaker 1: They did archaeological expeditions on his house. I think his
• 14:27
  Speaker 1: house has been under ownership of a public trust since
• 14:32
  Speaker 1: like the nineteenth century, and they've carried out archaeological examinations
• 14:38
  Speaker 1: of it, and they found that he went back and
• 14:40
  Speaker 1: forth between London and Stratford, so they know stuff about
• 14:45
  Speaker 1: him like that. But as far as like documentation goes,
• 14:48
  Speaker 1: the last piece of documentation we have comes in sixteen sixteen,
• 14:52
  Speaker 1: which is his will that he wrote, and then a
• 14:55
  Speaker 1: few months later he died, and I guess the last
• 14:59
  Speaker 1: last piece of doc documentation is his tombstone, which in
• 15:02
  Speaker 1: and of itself is curious because his tombstone contains a
• 15:05
  Speaker 1: curse on it, but not his name.
• 15:08
  Speaker 4: Yeah, is that the one with the quote.
• 15:12
  Speaker 1: Yeah, it's a curse. He's saying like, don't dig me
• 15:15
  Speaker 1: up or you're gonna be cursed.
• 15:16
  Speaker 3: Yeah, it's his good friend for Jesus sake, forbear to
• 15:19
  Speaker 3: dig the dust and closed here. Blessed be the man
• 15:22
  Speaker 3: who spares these stones, and cursed be he who moves
• 15:25
  Speaker 3: my bones. Some people point to that as a poor
• 15:30
  Speaker 3: writing and saying, well, Shakespeare was a great writer, would
• 15:33
  Speaker 3: have written this kind of shabby curse, And other people say, like,
• 15:37
  Speaker 3: who said Shakespeare even wrote that?
• 15:40
  Speaker 4: Necessarily this is.
• 15:41
  Speaker 1: A good instructive example of like kind of the back
• 15:44
  Speaker 1: and forth between those people, Right, this is terrible writing.
• 15:47
  Speaker 1: Who said Shakespeare wrote it? And then the anti Shakespeare
• 15:50
  Speaker 1: crew says, well, of course he wrote it, because who
• 15:53
  Speaker 1: else would just not think to put his name on
• 15:56
  Speaker 1: his own tombstone? And the other ones just put their
• 15:58
  Speaker 1: head in their hands, just start crying, and it just
• 16:01
  Speaker 1: goes downhill from there. But that's a really good example
• 16:04
  Speaker 1: of like the just kind of like people will jump
• 16:08
  Speaker 1: on any single thing that they possibly can and often
• 16:11
  Speaker 1: interpret it one way or the other. So one thing,
• 16:14
  Speaker 1: one single thing, provides evidence for both sides.
• 16:16
  Speaker 2: It's that kind of thing.
• 16:17
  Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, totally.
• 16:19
  Speaker 3: Another thing that people point to is the fact that
• 16:23
  Speaker 3: of you know, we don't have a lot of like
• 16:27
  Speaker 3: letters and papers and things like that because his family
• 16:31
  Speaker 3: line ended in sixteen seventy. I think he had a granddaughter,
• 16:36
  Speaker 3: Elizabeth Barnard, that died without that bearing children, so most
• 16:41
  Speaker 3: of his stuff basically lost as far as family possessions
• 16:44
  Speaker 3: and things like that. People do point to the will
• 16:47
  Speaker 3: at times and say, well, in his will, you know,
• 16:51
  Speaker 3: he leaves certain things, but like there's never any mention
• 16:54
  Speaker 3: of any manuscripts. And again this is all like it's
• 16:59
  Speaker 3: a little weird, maybe, but none of this is proof.
• 17:03
  Speaker 3: And you know, through the personal records that we do
• 17:06
  Speaker 3: have in those five hundred references, like none of them
• 17:09
  Speaker 3: really reference him like manuscripts in him writing things.
• 17:14
  Speaker 1: Right, That's what's most compelling to me is that when
• 17:16
  Speaker 1: you put together the documentation about his life that we know.
• 17:22
  Speaker 1: It's clear he's involved in the theater, he's an actor.
• 17:24
  Speaker 1: We get that. That's that comes through loud and clear.
• 17:27
  Speaker 1: What doesn't come through isn't documented at all is him
• 17:30
  Speaker 1: as a writer. And that that thing about the will,
• 17:34
  Speaker 1: the fact that if you look at the wills and
• 17:37
  Speaker 1: bequeathments of other writers of the time, you can find
• 17:42
  Speaker 1: evidence that.
• 17:43
  Speaker 2: They were writers.
• 17:44
  Speaker 1: They like leave books to other people that there they
• 17:48
  Speaker 1: leave unfinished manuscripts that stay in the family for generations,
• 17:54
  Speaker 1: and it is very curious. His will is very curious.
• 17:59
  Speaker 1: But the fact that his personal stuff was just lost
• 18:02
  Speaker 1: to history because his granddaughter was the end of the
• 18:04
  Speaker 1: family line, that actually holds up because other great authors
• 18:09
  Speaker 1: of say the same major of any age. A lot
• 18:12
  Speaker 1: of the reason that their personal effects and papers are
• 18:16
  Speaker 1: still around is because their family home was passed down
• 18:20
  Speaker 1: from generation to generation to generation, and there was a
• 18:24
  Speaker 1: long enough period of time for the importance of that
• 18:27
  Speaker 1: writer to become clear. And so other people came in
• 18:31
  Speaker 1: and said, can we have your great great great grandfather's
• 18:33
  Speaker 1: personal effects. We want to put them in this museum.
• 18:37
  Speaker 1: There's enough time. There wasn't enough time. There was only
• 18:40
  Speaker 1: seventy years between the death of Shakespeare and the end
• 18:43
  Speaker 1: of his family line, and he didn't become widely popular
• 18:46
  Speaker 1: until the I think middle of the eighteenth century, so
• 18:50
  Speaker 1: he was kind of a victim of that. And both
• 18:53
  Speaker 1: of those to me provide really good evidence for why
• 18:57
  Speaker 1: there is a documentation of his writing.
• 19:00
  Speaker 4: Yeah, absolutely in the will.
• 19:02
  Speaker 3: And by the way, The Atlantic has a great, great,
• 19:06
  Speaker 3: pretty deep dive article as they do on this, which
• 19:09
  Speaker 3: provided a lot of the supplementary information that we got
• 19:13
  Speaker 3: by Elizabeth Winkler.
• 19:15
  Speaker 4: Yeah, betweenty nineteen great read.
• 19:18
  Speaker 3: One of the things that Winkler points out and other
• 19:20
  Speaker 3: people to point out on the will as well, is
• 19:23
  Speaker 3: like Shakespeare wrote a lot about music, and I think
• 19:27
  Speaker 3: there were three hundred musical terms, and all of his
• 19:30
  Speaker 3: plays mentioned of twenty six musical instruments. And like in
• 19:34
  Speaker 3: his will he didn't he didn't even have a loot
• 19:37
  Speaker 3: to pass down to anybody, and like you said, didn't
• 19:40
  Speaker 3: have books even like a library that he wanted to give.
• 19:43
  Speaker 3: And you know, again this is not proof necessary necessarily
• 19:47
  Speaker 3: of anything, but it's all of this stuff has added
• 19:50
  Speaker 3: up over the years too enough for people to arise
• 19:53
  Speaker 3: to like get suspicious about it.
• 19:56
  Speaker 1: I think exactly, you want to take a break, a breather.
• 19:59
  Speaker 2: I guess you could call.
• 20:00
  Speaker 3: It, Yeah, let's take a let's take a breather, let's
• 20:03
  Speaker 3: take five. One thing that Ed who helped us put
• 20:36
  Speaker 3: this together mentions that I wanted to get your take
• 20:38
  Speaker 3: on it. I didn't really think it had a whole
• 20:42
  Speaker 3: lot to do with it. One way or the other
• 20:43
  Speaker 3: was all of the various misspellings of Shakespeare's name over
• 20:47
  Speaker 3: the years. He would sign it in different ways, he
• 20:50
  Speaker 3: would abbreviate it in different ways. There are documents with
• 20:55
  Speaker 3: I mean, it looks like fifteen different ways of spelling Shakespeare,
• 20:59
  Speaker 3: everything from shacks with an ex peer to spears and
• 21:04
  Speaker 3: something you would jab somebody with. It's misspelled all over
• 21:07
  Speaker 3: the place. And I just kind of took that, as
• 21:10
  Speaker 3: you know, people misspelled things a.
• 21:12
  Speaker 4: Lot back then.
• 21:13
  Speaker 3: There weren't you know, there weren't necessarily records that you
• 21:15
  Speaker 3: could go look at very easily, so you might just
• 21:18
  Speaker 3: take a guess at how to spell a name, and
• 21:20
  Speaker 3: then it was on the record. And so I didn't
• 21:22
  Speaker 3: really think that factored in much, did you.
• 21:25
  Speaker 2: I didn't.
• 21:26
  Speaker 1: And the impression I have is that all the different
• 21:29
  Speaker 1: spellings are easily explained away from just the era, like
• 21:33
  Speaker 1: you just said, and that the people who clamp onto
• 21:36
  Speaker 1: that are actually looking into them just to find like hidden.
• 21:39
  Speaker 2: Writing and codes too.
• 21:40
  Speaker 1: Right, So I think like the different spellings of the
• 21:42
  Speaker 1: names is it's about Yeah, it's about as big a
• 21:45
  Speaker 1: boondoggle as you're gonna find in the in the Shakespeare
• 21:48
  Speaker 1: authorship argument, I think.
• 21:49
  Speaker 4: All right, so we'll cast that aside.
• 21:51
  Speaker 1: Well, hold on, before we do, I want to point
• 21:53
  Speaker 1: out my favorite abbreviation.
• 21:55
  Speaker 3: Which one I think I let me look, I bet
• 21:57
  Speaker 3: you I know which one, But.
• 21:58
  Speaker 2: Go, okay, put it, put it back in the deck.
• 22:01
  Speaker 4: Yeah, it's back in the deck.
• 22:02
  Speaker 2: Okay, it is Wilm shack p.
• 22:06
  Speaker 4: Yeah, that's a lot.
• 22:07
  Speaker 2: That's the one.
• 22:08
  Speaker 4: It stands out pretty blatantly. Sahakp.
• 22:11
  Speaker 2: I love it.
• 22:12
  Speaker 4: Sheck, Hello, Wilm sheck.
• 22:15
  Speaker 1: It's not a really good hotel check in name, but
• 22:18
  Speaker 1: it's still worth mentioning.
• 22:19
  Speaker 4: I think that's pretty good.
• 22:21
  Speaker 3: So, like we mentioned, sort of what's at the root
• 22:23
  Speaker 3: of a lot of these theories is what ed I
• 22:27
  Speaker 3: think rightly calls elitism, which is, how could this guy
• 22:33
  Speaker 3: even you know, educated up to thirteen, how could he
• 22:36
  Speaker 3: have known about all this stuff? How could he have
• 22:39
  Speaker 3: known about military exploits? And you know, if you read
• 22:42
  Speaker 3: Shakespeare's plays, which if you're an English major, you have
• 22:45
  Speaker 3: to read a lot of them, there's a lot going
• 22:48
  Speaker 3: on in these plays about a lot of different stuff.
• 22:51
  Speaker 3: He didn't write about just kind of one kind of thing.
• 22:54
  Speaker 3: So it implies like a really deep breadth of knowledge
• 22:57
  Speaker 3: about a lot of things.
• 22:59
  Speaker 1: And not just different things as it relates to England,
• 23:02
  Speaker 1: different things, as it relates to entirely different lands. Like
• 23:06
  Speaker 1: think about where a lot of his stuff takes places
• 23:08
  Speaker 1: in Italy, and as far as anyone knows, Shakespeare didn't
• 23:13
  Speaker 1: go to Italy. Although remember there's that lost year eight
• 23:15
  Speaker 1: year period they call him the Lost Years. It's entirely
• 23:18
  Speaker 1: possible he went to Italy during that time. It's also
• 23:21
  Speaker 1: just as possible that he didn't go to Italy during
• 23:24
  Speaker 1: that time. We just don't know. But that is something
• 23:26
  Speaker 1: that really stands out. And yes, there is a tremendous
• 23:30
  Speaker 1: amount of elitism and classicism among some of the anti
• 23:34
  Speaker 1: Shakespeare group, but I think that that is I think
• 23:38
  Speaker 1: that dismisses a lot of their points out of hand.
• 23:41
  Speaker 1: And they do have some really good points. They're not
• 23:43
  Speaker 1: just cranks and crack pots, Like they have some pretty
• 23:47
  Speaker 1: good evidence. You can make a case at least as
• 23:49
  Speaker 1: good to evidence that as the pro Shakespeare people. But
• 23:55
  Speaker 1: the upshot of it is really kind of a compliment.
• 23:58
  Speaker 1: They're saying, these plays are so good. Yeah, that Shakespeare's
• 24:02
  Speaker 1: arguably the greatest writer who ever lived. He has such
• 24:07
  Speaker 1: a crazy imagination, he's so funny, he has such an
• 24:09
  Speaker 1: extensive vocabulary, such an amazing grasp of the human condition.
• 24:14
  Speaker 1: Could it really all have been written by this man
• 24:18
  Speaker 1: from at the time the country, who was educated up
• 24:21
  Speaker 1: to thirteen, who came from the middle class, who may
• 24:24
  Speaker 1: or may not have ever traveled out of England? How
• 24:27
  Speaker 1: is that even possible? Are people born that gifted? That's
• 24:31
  Speaker 1: ultimately if you want to go beyond the classicism in
• 24:33
  Speaker 1: the elite totally. That's really what their argument boils down to.
• 24:37
  Speaker 3: Yeah, I agree, And if you don't know a lot
• 24:39
  Speaker 3: of Shakespeare, have never really read a lot yourself, and
• 24:42
  Speaker 3: you think like you're sort of in that camp, like
• 24:45
  Speaker 3: I mean, this is kind of overrated, like this guy, No,
• 24:49
  Speaker 3: these plays are brilliant and there's a reason why they
• 24:54
  Speaker 3: still make contemporary movies based on Shakespeare's plays or inspired
• 25:00
  Speaker 3: by Shakespeare's plays. It's because they were all genuinely brilliant.
• 25:05
  Speaker 3: It was great, great stuff. And what you need is
• 25:08
  Speaker 3: a really good teacher to kind of walk you through
• 25:11
  Speaker 3: it because it's it's tough to read. And we had
• 25:14
  Speaker 3: we had some good ones at Georgia, at University of Georgia.
• 25:16
  Speaker 4: I had one.
• 25:16
  Speaker 3: I can't remember his name. God, I can picture him
• 25:19
  Speaker 3: in my head. He was so great. Probably yeah someone No,
• 25:24
  Speaker 3: it was Wilmi shack Be shack Bee.
• 25:29
  Speaker 4: Oh, I wish I could remember his name.
• 25:30
  Speaker 3: I bet you someone will write in in the mid
• 25:33
  Speaker 3: nineties through the great play Harpsichord.
• 25:37
  Speaker 1: Oh well, no, I had a classics professor who played
• 25:40
  Speaker 1: a harpsichord.
• 25:41
  Speaker 3: Yeah, this was you know, you had to take Shakespeare
• 25:44
  Speaker 3: one and two. Those were the only required English classes
• 25:46
  Speaker 3: as a as an English major, so that kind of
• 25:49
  Speaker 3: shows the importance. But what he did was he saddus
• 25:52
  Speaker 3: down and we read the plays out loud in class,
• 25:56
  Speaker 3: and after every you know, short bit, he would say, well,
• 26:00
  Speaker 3: here's what's going on, and here's what he's saying.
• 26:01
  Speaker 2: Yes, man, you were very lucky.
• 26:03
  Speaker 3: Yeah, and once once you hear that and you're like, oh,
• 26:06
  Speaker 3: these are very contemporary stories, and that's why they still
• 26:10
  Speaker 3: carry such weight today is because they were brilliant stories,
• 26:13
  Speaker 3: but stories that were very relatable even now. It's not
• 26:16
  Speaker 3: high falutin stuff, it's just it was written at a
• 26:18
  Speaker 3: time where it seems that way.
• 26:20
  Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, exactly, because we don't really speak in you know,
• 26:23
  Speaker 1: Renaissance English anymore, so it seems it might as well
• 26:26
  Speaker 1: be Greek to us. But yeah, it was intended for
• 26:31
  Speaker 1: common audiences, like the average person would laugh or cry
• 26:34
  Speaker 1: at those at those plays. And I think also it
• 26:37
  Speaker 1: like really kind of supports your point that four hundred
• 26:40
  Speaker 1: years later, those plays can still make people today laugh
• 26:44
  Speaker 1: and cry like they still hold up. I guess what
• 26:47
  Speaker 1: you're saying. And have you ever heard of Sister Wendy. No,
• 26:52
  Speaker 1: she is, she's a nun. I don't believe she's still
• 26:55
  Speaker 1: with us. And I think in the nineties she made
• 26:57
  Speaker 1: this series of videos where she just went around to
• 26:59
  Speaker 1: music around the world and explained paintings to you in
• 27:04
  Speaker 1: a way that I would love to find a sister
• 27:06
  Speaker 1: Wendy of Shakespeare. I'm sure there's somebody out there, but
• 27:09
  Speaker 1: you could do a lot worse of killing several hours
• 27:12
  Speaker 1: watching Sister Wendy explain paintings because she was she had
• 27:16
  Speaker 1: like a natural gift at just not only understanding what
• 27:19
  Speaker 1: she was looking at, but explaining it really understandably.
• 27:23
  Speaker 3: I love that, and I think in Sister Wendy's case
• 27:26
  Speaker 3: and my professor Shackby, it's it.
• 27:30
  Speaker 4: It comes from a place of.
• 27:33
  Speaker 3: They have such great admiration and they want us, They
• 27:36
  Speaker 3: really want people to understand this stuff. You might ordinarily
• 27:39
  Speaker 3: go like, well, I don't get it. I don't get
• 27:40
  Speaker 3: paintings like this, or I don't get plays like this.
• 27:42
  Speaker 2: I art.
• 27:45
  Speaker 4: So should we get in speaking of art?
• 27:47
  Speaker 3: Great segue, should we get into this mess of the
• 27:51
  Speaker 3: bust of Shakespeare?
• 27:53
  Speaker 2: Yeah?
• 27:53
  Speaker 1: I mean it's another It's very much like his tombstone,
• 27:56
  Speaker 1: where people are like it means this, No, it means that,
• 27:58
  Speaker 1: you know.
• 28:00
  Speaker 4: Yeah.
• 28:00
  Speaker 3: So there's a bust an effigy of Shakespeare inside the
• 28:04
  Speaker 3: church there in Stratford. And there's been a lot of
• 28:08
  Speaker 3: controversy over this thing because part of it is not
• 28:11
  Speaker 3: necessarily like was he the author, although it does play
• 28:15
  Speaker 3: into that, but sort of like what did he look like?
• 28:17
  Speaker 3: And how do we know that's what he looked like?
• 28:19
  Speaker 3: Like we've all seen the picture and there's like this
• 28:22
  Speaker 3: one painting and this one bust, and that's kind of
• 28:25
  Speaker 3: where everything comes from. And some people say this was
• 28:28
  Speaker 3: done after he was dead, like, we really don't know
• 28:31
  Speaker 3: that that's what he looked like. I think just a
• 28:35
  Speaker 3: couple of years ago, this professor and expert made a
• 28:39
  Speaker 3: pretty good case that beyond most reasonable doubt that it
• 28:44
  Speaker 3: was actually done. I think she said it was highly likely.
• 28:47
  Speaker 3: Professor Orlan said it's highly likely that it was done
• 28:51
  Speaker 3: while he was alive, and that he commissioned it because
• 28:54
  Speaker 3: she thinks she knows who did the bust, and that
• 28:57
  Speaker 3: that person lived near him and was irregular at the
• 29:01
  Speaker 3: globe and.
• 29:02
  Speaker 4: Kind of put all these clues together.
• 29:04
  Speaker 3: But other people, some people say it was his dad
• 29:06
  Speaker 3: and not him because of this whole sack of grain argument.
• 29:11
  Speaker 1: Yeah, so there there was an etching that was made
• 29:15
  Speaker 1: of the bust within some period of time after the
• 29:19
  Speaker 1: bust was erected, but before it was altered. So the
• 29:22
  Speaker 1: bus has definitely been altered. And it looks like one
• 29:25
  Speaker 1: way you can interpret this, this thing at the bottom,
• 29:28
  Speaker 1: this puffy things that's at the hands of the bust,
• 29:32
  Speaker 1: the effigy as a sack of grain. I don't know
• 29:36
  Speaker 1: if it were a sack of green, why anyone would
• 29:38
  Speaker 1: ever present it in that position.
• 29:41
  Speaker 2: It doesn't make any sense.
• 29:43
  Speaker 1: And so right, so what the anti Shakespeare, anti Stratford
• 29:47
  Speaker 1: people are saying is like, yeah, it's his dad, it's
• 29:49
  Speaker 1: it's not him, or if it is Shakespeare, he was
• 29:53
  Speaker 1: known for his grain carrying skills, not his writing skills.
• 29:57
  Speaker 1: And the pro strap for people are like, don't be ridiculou.
• 30:00
  Speaker 1: This is obviously a pillow, and at some point somebody
• 30:03
  Speaker 1: did revise the bus, so it is unequivocally a pillow,
• 30:07
  Speaker 1: like there's just no way to mistake it. And it's
• 30:10
  Speaker 1: not so much a pillow as it is like a
• 30:11
  Speaker 1: handrest for him to write on, because he's got a
• 30:13
  Speaker 1: piece of paper on it and a quill in his
• 30:15
  Speaker 1: other hand. But the anti Shakespeare people jump on that
• 30:19
  Speaker 1: and say, like, see it was altered to fit this
• 30:23
  Speaker 1: to cover up this conspiracy later.
• 30:25
  Speaker 3: On, Yeah, exactly, And that quill has been stolen and
• 30:29
  Speaker 3: replaced I think so many times over the years that
• 30:32
  Speaker 3: now I don't know if it currently has the quill
• 30:36
  Speaker 3: or if it has the quill, and it's now behind glass.
• 30:38
  Speaker 2: Oh, that could that's a good way to get around
• 30:40
  Speaker 2: as sure.
• 30:41
  Speaker 3: I'm not really sure, but you know, that became a
• 30:44
  Speaker 3: you know, obviously it's something you could just snatch of
• 30:47
  Speaker 3: his hand, and you've got Shakespeare's quill on your on
• 30:50
  Speaker 3: your door.
• 30:51
  Speaker 2: Speaking of being snatched.
• 30:54
  Speaker 1: Apparently that curse on his tombston didn't work because they
• 30:57
  Speaker 1: did a scan of it on the four hundred thing
• 31:00
  Speaker 1: versary of his death and found that at least his
• 31:02
  Speaker 1: skull was missing, if not all of his remains. Oh
• 31:05
  Speaker 1: really yeah, and that interesting. So somebody out there has
• 31:09
  Speaker 1: Shakespeare's skull in their personal collection.
• 31:12
  Speaker 3: It's probably Rosenkrantz or Guildenstern. I like, great Shakespeare joke.
• 31:17
  Speaker 2: That's good.
• 31:20
  Speaker 4: There's some people out there that were, like, nailed it.
• 31:23
  Speaker 2: Good.
• 31:24
  Speaker 3: Another thing, as far as evidence goes, is the first folio,
• 31:28
  Speaker 3: which is I think it was the first collection that
• 31:32
  Speaker 3: they put in print of all of Shakespeare's plays, including
• 31:37
  Speaker 3: eighteen that had never been in print before.
• 31:40
  Speaker 4: And there was a I guess was it?
• 31:42
  Speaker 3: A forward written by a guy named Ben Johnson who
• 31:45
  Speaker 3: was a rival of Shakespeare's. He was kind of known
• 31:49
  Speaker 3: as a jealous, sort of argumentative guy. But he calls
• 31:55
  Speaker 3: Shakespeare the Swan of Avon and is sort of very
• 31:59
  Speaker 3: laudatory in this forward, but I think you found stuff
• 32:02
  Speaker 3: later on where he was kind of like, m I
• 32:06
  Speaker 3: had my fingers cross the whole.
• 32:07
  Speaker 2: Time kind of yeah.
• 32:09
  Speaker 1: So the pro Stratford people who believe Shakespeare or Shakespeare say, look, man,
• 32:13
  Speaker 1: this guy was known as a rival, a friendly rival,
• 32:17
  Speaker 1: but a real rival, really critical, like, had biting criticism
• 32:21
  Speaker 1: and sense of humor, and also was not one to
• 32:25
  Speaker 1: just be like.
• 32:27
  Speaker 2: To just bow to nobility or privilege or wealth or status.
• 32:32
  Speaker 1: Right, So if this guy is saying that Shakespeare the
• 32:36
  Speaker 1: Swan of Avon, which places this man at Stratford on Avon,
• 32:39
  Speaker 1: because Ben Johnson is calling him that, that proves that
• 32:43
  Speaker 1: Shakespeare was Shakespeare. The anti Shakespeare camp says, like you said,
• 32:48
  Speaker 1: Ben Johnson at his fingers crossed the whole time, and
• 32:50
  Speaker 1: that really what he was doing was providing cover for
• 32:54
  Speaker 1: this larger, essentially conspiracy of people who actually were Shakespeare,
• 33:00
  Speaker 1: was blending his renown to it.
• 33:05
  Speaker 2: Neither one really makes sense.
• 33:07
  Speaker 1: I mean, unless Ben Johnson had like a complete change
• 33:09
  Speaker 1: of heart, it just doesn't quite add up. But then
• 33:13
  Speaker 1: also the idea that he would provide that cover for
• 33:17
  Speaker 1: a group of noble people and seems unlikely as well too.
• 33:22
  Speaker 4: Yeah, I agree.
• 33:24
  Speaker 3: One of the first public doubters in the eighteen hundreds
• 33:28
  Speaker 3: was a woman named Delia Bacon, no relation to Francis Bacon,
• 33:35
  Speaker 3: although you may think so, because one person that Delia
• 33:39
  Speaker 3: Bacon put forward as one of the authors was Francis Bacon.
• 33:44
  Speaker 3: Delia Bacon was an American, was a writer, had a
• 33:50
  Speaker 3: sort of a long life before she got into kind
• 33:53
  Speaker 3: of hating Shakespeare, Yeah, hating him, like really didn't like
• 33:57
  Speaker 3: Shakespeare and really wanted to prove that he was not
• 34:00
  Speaker 3: the author. And her idea was that it was Francis Bacon,
• 34:06
  Speaker 3: Walter Raleigh, and I think maybe some other people too,
• 34:10
  Speaker 3: who were these very well regarded people of you know,
• 34:14
  Speaker 3: philosophy and politics and science, who would not have been
• 34:18
  Speaker 3: allowed to put forth these plays. And what these plays,
• 34:21
  Speaker 3: what they really were, were not even meant for entertainment
• 34:24
  Speaker 3: or for the stage. They were meant to be sort
• 34:27
  Speaker 3: of biting criticisms of all kinds of various things that
• 34:31
  Speaker 3: these gentlemen could not put their name on.
• 34:34
  Speaker 1: Yeah, so there's yeah, either they couldn't put their name
• 34:36
  Speaker 1: on it because they would be executed as basically treason
• 34:39
  Speaker 1: as to the crown, because they were, you know, putting
• 34:42
  Speaker 1: forth the idea of social reform and you know, women's
• 34:46
  Speaker 1: rights and all sorts of stuff, taking potshots at the nobility.
• 34:51
  Speaker 1: Or there's another theory called the stigma of print that
• 34:55
  Speaker 1: was introduced in I think the eighteen seventies, and that
• 34:57
  Speaker 1: was that they just just out of noble nobility nobless,
• 35:04
  Speaker 1: I guess they wouldn't deign to have their stuff published.
• 35:09
  Speaker 1: It would erode their social reputation, even accepting the idea
• 35:13
  Speaker 1: that they would be beheaded for treason. So there are
• 35:16
  Speaker 1: a couple of reasons that somebody like Francis Bacon would
• 35:20
  Speaker 1: have to cover up his identity if he were actually Shakespeare.
• 35:24
  Speaker 1: And that same stigma of print and political cover argument
• 35:29
  Speaker 1: gets extended to other people beyond Bacon too.
• 35:32
  Speaker 3: Yeah, and that, you know, it makes a little bit
• 35:35
  Speaker 3: of sense. As far as Delia Bacon, she was able
• 35:38
  Speaker 3: to talk Ralph Waldo Emerson into basically kind of buying
• 35:42
  Speaker 3: her story and he arranged for her sponsorship basically to
• 35:48
  Speaker 3: go to England to kind of research this. Apparently in
• 35:51
  Speaker 3: England she was kind of on record saying that she
• 35:54
  Speaker 3: didn't research history books or records and things like that.
• 35:58
  Speaker 3: She believed that the the proof was sort of in
• 36:01
  Speaker 3: the plays themselves, yeah, and in the in the text basically,
• 36:05
  Speaker 3: like with these clues. Apparently, she used to go to
• 36:08
  Speaker 3: Shakespeare's tomb a lot and and kind of just you know,
• 36:12
  Speaker 3: hang out there and like try to convince the I
• 36:15
  Speaker 3: guess the tomb keeper or whoever you know takes care
• 36:17
  Speaker 3: of the cemetery, the crypt keeper.
• 36:19
  Speaker 4: Yeah, the crypt keeper.
• 36:20
  Speaker 3: I didn't want to say it to be let in,
• 36:22
  Speaker 3: and like almost got in at one point apparently, but
• 36:26
  Speaker 3: I think she got sick and couldn't. And but she
• 36:28
  Speaker 3: thought that the you know, the deep secret was within
• 36:31
  Speaker 3: that tomb.
• 36:32
  Speaker 1: Yeah, she kind of kicked off the nuttier camp of
• 36:39
  Speaker 1: the questioning of of Shakespeare. In addition to kicking off
• 36:44
  Speaker 1: the whole thing. She she put like kind of a
• 36:46
  Speaker 1: nutty sheen to it, like the idea that you could
• 36:48
  Speaker 1: get your answers just from reading the plays, right, the
• 36:51
  Speaker 1: clues were in there. The thing is is Francis Bacon
• 36:54
  Speaker 1: was known to amuse himself by including you know, hidden
• 36:58
  Speaker 1: codes and messages in his writings. So if it was
• 37:02
  Speaker 1: Francis Bacon, that's not that much of a stretch, and
• 37:05
  Speaker 1: supposedly Mark Twain and some friends did actually turn up.
• 37:09
  Speaker 1: If you read the first folio, there is I guess
• 37:13
  Speaker 1: some series of lines that spell out Francisco BACONO.
• 37:20
  Speaker 4: It's pretty good.
• 37:21
  Speaker 3: I mean, here's the thing, though, Francis Bacon wrote a
• 37:24
  Speaker 3: lot about a lot of stuff, but not a lot
• 37:27
  Speaker 3: of fiction and pros or didn't he write no evidence
• 37:32
  Speaker 3: that he ever wrote any kind of plays, did he?
• 37:35
  Speaker 4: Right?
• 37:36
  Speaker 2: There was this other thing that kind of came along.
• 37:39
  Speaker 1: So Delia Bacon is widely regarded as the person who
• 37:42
  Speaker 1: kicked off that it was Shakespeare Shakespeare idea, But supposedly
• 37:47
  Speaker 1: there was a person who came before her, James Wilmot,
• 37:50
  Speaker 1: who in seventeen eighty one sat down to write a
• 37:54
  Speaker 1: biography of Shakespeare and did all the research in London
• 37:58
  Speaker 1: and Stratford, on ava on and was astonished by the
• 38:04
  Speaker 1: lack of documentation that Shakespeare had written those plays and
• 38:08
  Speaker 1: started to suspect it and that he kicked it off.
• 38:11
  Speaker 2: The thing is, the.
• 38:14
  Speaker 1: Anti Shakespeare side has been accused of making those documents up,
• 38:20
  Speaker 1: of forging those documents to support Delia Bacon's Francis Bacon theory.
• 38:24
  Speaker 1: Oh interesting, Yeah, so they weren't discovered until nineteen thirty one,
• 38:29
  Speaker 1: which is pretty convenient, and it's entirely possible that they
• 38:32
  Speaker 1: were just forged.
• 38:34
  Speaker 3: All right, should we take another break here? Yeah's all right,
• 38:37
  Speaker 3: we'll take another break. We'll talk a little bit more
• 38:40
  Speaker 3: about whether Shakespeare wrote that stuff.
• 39:11
  Speaker 1: So one more thing about Delia Bacon before we wrap
• 39:14
  Speaker 1: it up. Like you said, she was a good writer,
• 39:17
  Speaker 1: and her exhaustive examination of the texts of Shakespeare's plays
• 39:23
  Speaker 1: resulted in a six hundred and twenty page book, The
• 39:26
  Speaker 1: Philosophy of the Plays of Shakespeare Unfolded, and she's often
• 39:32
  Speaker 1: credited with basically prefiguring, if not kicking off, the idea
• 39:36
  Speaker 1: of literary criticism of close readings of stuff to find
• 39:40
  Speaker 1: other meanings. And she was doing it to expose noble
• 39:43
  Speaker 1: people as Shakespeare.
• 39:45
  Speaker 2: But she was really good at.
• 39:47
  Speaker 1: It, and people said, well, hey, maybe we should do
• 39:49
  Speaker 1: this for other stuff too.
• 39:50
  Speaker 3: Yeah, and like ironically, because she kind of I mean,
• 39:55
  Speaker 3: you know, the various tawdry accounts say she was driven
• 39:57
  Speaker 3: to madness. I'm not sure how accurate that is, but
• 40:02
  Speaker 3: it did seem like it pretty much consumed her in
• 40:05
  Speaker 3: the latter stages of her life and that her family
• 40:07
  Speaker 3: was kind of embarrassed and stuff like that.
• 40:09
  Speaker 1: Right, So Francis Bacon was not the only person put
• 40:14
  Speaker 1: forth and there's probably, as far as like believers go,
• 40:19
  Speaker 1: somebody who at least rivals, if not eclipses him, and
• 40:22
  Speaker 1: that would be the seventeenth Earl of Oxford, Edward de
• 40:26
  Speaker 1: Vere Right.
• 40:27
  Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean there's a whole there's a whole camp
• 40:32
  Speaker 3: and a whole other and you know, we can't get
• 40:35
  Speaker 3: into this too too much in detail, but there's a
• 40:39
  Speaker 3: whole movement that says out of the eighty people like
• 40:43
  Speaker 3: we really think it was the seventeenth Earl of Oxford.
• 40:46
  Speaker 1: Yeah, it's called the Oxfordian theory of Shakespearean authorship, and
• 40:51
  Speaker 1: there is, you.
• 40:52
  Speaker 2: Know, some stuff to it.
• 40:54
  Speaker 1: He was a poet, which Ed points out that's so
• 40:57
  Speaker 1: much for the stigma of print, and that also you
• 41:02
  Speaker 1: can compare his poetry and in like some specific works
• 41:06
  Speaker 1: of poetry to some of Shakespeare's poetry and see some
• 41:10
  Speaker 1: real comparisons. But as far as I can tell that
• 41:15
  Speaker 1: the questions are the similarities and there, if I'm not mistaken,
• 41:21
  Speaker 1: like and that to me, it was the sixth Earl
• 41:25
  Speaker 1: of Derby who has a little more, a little more
• 41:28
  Speaker 1: to offer.
• 41:30
  Speaker 4: Oh really, Oh no, it was about Derby.
• 41:33
  Speaker 2: There was one other thing. So Derby has his own group,
• 41:35
  Speaker 2: the Derbyites.
• 41:36
  Speaker 4: Right, this is what I mean. It's an onion. It's
• 41:39
  Speaker 4: a bloomin onion.
• 41:40
  Speaker 1: So there was one other thing about Devere that is
• 41:42
  Speaker 1: pretty suspicious. There were two narrative poems that Shakespeare dedicated
• 41:48
  Speaker 1: to a man who was raised in the same household
• 41:51
  Speaker 1: as Devere. And from what anybody could tell, there's no
• 41:55
  Speaker 1: reason Shakespeare would know this person, and why would Shakespeare
• 41:58
  Speaker 1: dedicate to poems.
• 42:00
  Speaker 2: So this this.
• 42:01
  Speaker 1: Nobleman he didn't know, but Devere certainly knew him. He
• 42:05
  Speaker 1: was he was basically raised alongside him like a brother.
• 42:08
  Speaker 1: So that, along with the biographical reading, the close reading
• 42:12
  Speaker 1: looking for parallels between Devere's life and Shakespeare's plays, are
• 42:16
  Speaker 1: what kind of back up the Oxfordian.
• 42:19
  Speaker 3: Theories interesting because Christopher Marlowe is another one who was
• 42:23
  Speaker 3: a contemporary and friend of Shakespeare's, and they collaborated and
• 42:28
  Speaker 3: they influenced one another, and this the details around Marlowe's
• 42:33
  Speaker 3: death are hinky enough to where some people thought or
• 42:38
  Speaker 3: at least that you know, the conspiracy is that is
• 42:41
  Speaker 3: that he faked his death because he was going to
• 42:45
  Speaker 3: going to be executed by the crown and continued to
• 42:48
  Speaker 3: write and then used his friend Billy Shakespeare as affront
• 42:53
  Speaker 3: to continue to get those plays out. I'm not really
• 42:58
  Speaker 3: sure about this because I don't know that's that's just
• 43:01
  Speaker 3: a little far fetched.
• 43:02
  Speaker 1: If you ask me, well, yeah, if and if you're
• 43:04
  Speaker 1: if you're supposing that Marlow faked his death in order
• 43:07
  Speaker 1: to continue writing, you've now got a conspiracy theory wrapped
• 43:12
  Speaker 1: in a conspiracy theory.
• 43:14
  Speaker 4: Yeah, maybe that's what.
• 43:15
  Speaker 1: Yeah, but it's interesting because you know, Marlow is a
• 43:17
  Speaker 1: pretty interesting dude in himself. Supposedly he may have been
• 43:20
  Speaker 1: a secret agent for the crown.
• 43:23
  Speaker 2: He was an.
• 43:24
  Speaker 1: Atheist, he was his own playwright. People loved him as
• 43:28
  Speaker 1: a playwright at the time, but he was no Shakespeare.
• 43:32
  Speaker 1: Like literally, he's probably the flimsiest person you could attribute
• 43:38
  Speaker 1: Shakespeare's writings to because Marlow was gloomy and super atheist
• 43:42
  Speaker 1: and he was. His plays just didn't have that same
• 43:47
  Speaker 1: kind of humanism and funniness that Shakespeare's plays had. And also,
• 43:53
  Speaker 1: why wouldn't Marlow just write these plays under his own name?
• 43:56
  Speaker 1: He had no reason to write these plays under different names.
• 43:58
  Speaker 4: Yeah, agreed.
• 44:00
  Speaker 3: There have been people that put forth the idea that
• 44:04
  Speaker 3: there were several different women that might have been the
• 44:07
  Speaker 3: real authors, because women were not allowed to write plays
• 44:11
  Speaker 3: at the time. Eighty percent of the plays written during
• 44:15
  Speaker 3: this time were anonymous and no author was listed, and
• 44:18
  Speaker 3: a lot of people said, hey, a lot of these
• 44:20
  Speaker 3: were written by women and they just couldn't put their
• 44:22
  Speaker 3: name on it. Many of Shakespeare's plays and ideas are
• 44:26
  Speaker 3: very progressive. It's kind of a kind of a I
• 44:34
  Speaker 3: don't know about flimsy, but it kind of demeans Shakespeare
• 44:37
  Speaker 3: a bit to say that, like, well, it had to
• 44:38
  Speaker 3: be a woman because they were so progressive about women
• 44:42
  Speaker 3: like taking a stand, when in fact Shakespeare seemingly very
• 44:46
  Speaker 3: much thought that way himself, right, Like, how.
• 44:48
  Speaker 2: Could a man write women like this?
• 44:50
  Speaker 3: Come on, Yeah, there's a woman named Mary Sidmund Herbert
• 44:55
  Speaker 3: who has a whole foundation that's trying to prove that
• 44:57
  Speaker 3: she wrote. Kind of the word of the Internet happened
• 45:02
  Speaker 3: about seven years ago. When you get these memes that
• 45:05
  Speaker 3: are just full of false stuff and then everyone starts
• 45:09
  Speaker 3: spreading them around. Oh yeah, there was a meme in
• 45:12
  Speaker 3: twenty fifteen went all over social media that just had
• 45:15
  Speaker 3: the picture of this black woman and said, this is
• 45:17
  Speaker 3: Amelia Bassano. She really wrote Shakespeare's stuff. She was not
• 45:22
  Speaker 3: allowed to be a published author because she was a
• 45:25
  Speaker 3: black woman at a time where she was suppressed and
• 45:28
  Speaker 3: all this stuff. None of this stuff was true. First
• 45:32
  Speaker 3: of all, she was maybe Moroccan. She was definitely not
• 45:36
  Speaker 3: of African descent.
• 45:37
  Speaker 2: Oh. I saw she was Venetian.
• 45:40
  Speaker 3: I saw that she was Moroccan and had some Italian
• 45:43
  Speaker 3: in her, so that okay, yeah, it makes a little sense.
• 45:45
  Speaker 3: But she was definitely not of African descent. She was
• 45:49
  Speaker 3: a published author, so the whole notion that she wasn't
• 45:52
  Speaker 3: allowed to publish things wasn't right. She was kind of
• 45:55
  Speaker 3: a well known poet.
• 45:57
  Speaker 4: I think at the time.
• 45:59
  Speaker 3: So this kind of I think gets passed along the
• 46:01
  Speaker 3: internet and then you know, half the people that see
• 46:03
  Speaker 3: had to say, oh, well, look at that Shakespeare was
• 46:06
  Speaker 3: all written by this lady back then.
• 46:09
  Speaker 4: Yeah, problem solved, And that's just not how it works.
• 46:12
  Speaker 1: One of the other things I saw that, and I
• 46:14
  Speaker 1: think the people who are like Shakespeare is a woman
• 46:17
  Speaker 1: are like, well, okay, if we're starting to question Shakespeare's authorship,
• 46:20
  Speaker 1: we can't ignore this whole group of people who had
• 46:24
  Speaker 1: every reason to hide their identity as authors of these
• 46:28
  Speaker 1: plays because they were women and they weren't for sure
• 46:30
  Speaker 1: to do this kind of stuff. So there was a
• 46:33
  Speaker 1: critic who in fifteen ninety three wrote of a who
• 46:37
  Speaker 1: praised a gentle woman who was writing some amazing plays
• 46:40
  Speaker 1: and sonnets. And this was the year after Shakespeare pops
• 46:44
  Speaker 1: back up after his lost years and when he was
• 46:48
  Speaker 1: starting to write. But that the critics said he didn't
• 46:51
  Speaker 1: want to reveal who it was because he didn't want
• 46:53
  Speaker 1: to basically get her in trouble. So that's what some
• 46:55
  Speaker 1: other people kind of look at and say, See, Shakespeare.
• 46:58
  Speaker 2: Was a woman.
• 46:59
  Speaker 3: Well, I mean, I think think, I think this theory
• 47:01
  Speaker 3: makes a lot more sense than a lot of the others.
• 47:05
  Speaker 3: You know, just by this year fact that women would
• 47:07
  Speaker 3: not have been allowed to So maybe Shakespeare was progressive
• 47:11
  Speaker 3: and decided to be affront for these great works.
• 47:14
  Speaker 1: But it reveals a point about being an anti Shakespeare
• 47:20
  Speaker 1: anti I guess Stratford person is you have to part
• 47:25
  Speaker 1: of is you have to explain why somebody would want
• 47:28
  Speaker 1: to fake authorship, would want to hide behind Shakespeare's name.
• 47:31
  Speaker 4: Yeah, what do you call that a motive.
• 47:36
  Speaker 1: Yeah, you got means, motive, and opportunity. You put those
• 47:39
  Speaker 1: three together, you got your Shakespeare.
• 47:42
  Speaker 4: Well that's what I mean about the maybe women wrote them.
• 47:45
  Speaker 4: I mean there was definite motive.
• 47:46
  Speaker 1: There, right exactly. So there was one other thing that happened.
• 47:51
  Speaker 1: I mean a lot of stuff happened over the course
• 47:52
  Speaker 1: of this hundred almost two hundred years now of questioning
• 47:56
  Speaker 1: Shakespeare's authorship. Back in nineteen eighty seven, Ox forty and
• 48:02
  Speaker 1: Charlton Augburn got the at least three sitting Supreme Court
• 48:07
  Speaker 1: justices John Paul Stevens, William Brennan and Harry Blackman to
• 48:11
  Speaker 1: hold a mock trial to determine if Shakespeare actually was
• 48:15
  Speaker 1: the author of Shakespeare's plays, and they did on Sea Span.
• 48:18
  Speaker 1: They had they held like a trial and heard the evidence,
• 48:21
  Speaker 1: and Shakespeare had his own attorney arguing for him, and
• 48:25
  Speaker 1: it was pretty interesting. But they it went two to one,
• 48:30
  Speaker 1: I think, in favor of Shakespeare from Stratford as the author.
• 48:34
  Speaker 3: But they did like real research and stuff. It wasn't
• 48:37
  Speaker 3: just like a you know, yeah stunt.
• 48:40
  Speaker 1: No, so the Supreme Court justices were kind of taking
• 48:43
  Speaker 1: its tongue in cheek. But I got the impression that
• 48:46
  Speaker 1: Charlton Augburn was like, yes, finally going to prove it
• 48:49
  Speaker 1: definitively one way or another, and it didn't even fall
• 48:52
  Speaker 1: in his favor. Interesting, Yeah, it is interesting what people
• 48:56
  Speaker 1: did in the eighties on Sea Span.
• 49:00
  Speaker 3: I got a few more little things here from that
• 49:02
  Speaker 3: Atlantic article that point to his authorship as being genuine.
• 49:08
  Speaker 3: One is that he had a narrative poem called Venus
• 49:10
  Speaker 3: and Adonis that was a very popular poem at the
• 49:13
  Speaker 3: time that was put in print, and it was printed
• 49:17
  Speaker 3: by a gentleman named Richard Field, who apparently went to
• 49:20
  Speaker 3: school with him at Stratford.
• 49:22
  Speaker 4: So that's a pretty good little hint.
• 49:26
  Speaker 3: He was written about at the time, so it's not
• 49:28
  Speaker 3: like he was never known until his death and then
• 49:31
  Speaker 3: all of a sudden became super popular, Like he died
• 49:35
  Speaker 3: a rich man and was written about by literary critics
• 49:40
  Speaker 3: at the time and entertainment and play critics. So there
• 49:44
  Speaker 3: were contemporaneous criticisms of his writing while he was still living,
• 49:50
  Speaker 3: which is a pretty, you know, pretty big clue that
• 49:53
  Speaker 3: he probably wrote this stuff, although it is not proof.
• 49:55
  Speaker 1: No, because those people could be they went and saw
• 49:59
  Speaker 1: a play by Shakes, They doesn't mean that they met
• 50:01
  Speaker 1: Shakespeare and talked to Shakespeare about the authorship of the place.
• 50:05
  Speaker 4: And leaned over his shoulder while he wrote it proof.
• 50:09
  Speaker 3: The other last thing that I saw in that Atlantic
• 50:11
  Speaker 3: article this is the one or actually this.
• 50:13
  Speaker 4: Was a this was the golden bullet from that video?
• 50:17
  Speaker 4: Was it okay?
• 50:18
  Speaker 1: Was?
• 50:19
  Speaker 3: Shakespeare was apparently concerned that his dad's reputation sort of
• 50:24
  Speaker 3: in the family's reputation, suffered later in life because of
• 50:27
  Speaker 3: financial problems that his dad had, and he really wanted
• 50:31
  Speaker 3: to kind of restore their name and get a coat
• 50:33
  Speaker 3: of arms made, which is you could you know, it's
• 50:36
  Speaker 3: like you could be a true gentleman if you had
• 50:38
  Speaker 3: a coat of arms. And apparently it's a really long process.
• 50:41
  Speaker 3: They don't just hand him out to anybody. You got
• 50:42
  Speaker 3: to have a certain level of achievement to get a
• 50:45
  Speaker 3: coat of arms. So he went through this big, long
• 50:48
  Speaker 3: process and had he went on Barry Linden on there,
• 50:52
  Speaker 3: Oh man, what a movie. He had a couple of
• 50:55
  Speaker 3: different men in the Harold's office who defended Shakespeare's right
• 50:59
  Speaker 3: to have a coat of arms because other people were saying,
• 51:02
  Speaker 3: who is this guy? Even like he came from not
• 51:04
  Speaker 3: much and he shouldn't have a coat of arms. And
• 51:07
  Speaker 3: one of the guys who defended him was a man
• 51:09
  Speaker 3: named William Camden, who this guy in the video referred
• 51:13
  Speaker 3: to as.
• 51:13
  Speaker 4: One of the most learned men in all of England.
• 51:15
  Speaker 2: Oh wow.
• 51:17
  Speaker 3: He was actually Ben Johnson's schoolmaster and apparently just knew
• 51:21
  Speaker 3: everything happening on the literary scene inside and out. And
• 51:25
  Speaker 3: in one of his books he was called the Remains
• 51:29
  Speaker 3: of a Greater History. He talks about all the great
• 51:31
  Speaker 3: writers of the time and he lists William Shakespeare of
• 51:35
  Speaker 3: Avon in that book.
• 51:37
  Speaker 4: So he said, that's the golden bullet again. If it's
• 51:42
  Speaker 4: just a front, it's still no real proof of authorship.
• 51:46
  Speaker 2: No it's not. I mean like this guy could just
• 51:48
  Speaker 2: be playing along, lending his.
• 51:50
  Speaker 4: Or didn't notable weight.
• 51:52
  Speaker 2: Yeah, that's another one too.
• 51:53
  Speaker 1: Like that's the thing, like the anti Stratfordians have caused
• 51:59
  Speaker 1: the pros at Fordian's to actually defend their position, and
• 52:03
  Speaker 1: in doing so it's kind of revealed that both of
• 52:05
  Speaker 1: them are kind of on shaky ground. It's almost just
• 52:09
  Speaker 1: a matter of belief. Do you want to believe that
• 52:11
  Speaker 1: one man was that brilliant and that talented and gifted,
• 52:16
  Speaker 1: or do you can. You just not believe that. It
• 52:18
  Speaker 1: just doesn't make any sense to you. So it was
• 52:20
  Speaker 1: a cabal of noble people who were trying to advance
• 52:24
  Speaker 1: political reform and hiding behind William Shakespeare, paying them off
• 52:28
  Speaker 1: with maybe family crests and money and fame right to
• 52:34
  Speaker 1: let them use his name as their you know, the playwright.
• 52:37
  Speaker 3: Yeah. They also say, like where he was from. There
• 52:40
  Speaker 3: was some regional slang that was very specific to where
• 52:43
  Speaker 3: he was from that was used. There was in Taming
• 52:46
  Speaker 3: of the Shrew he mentions these Latin phrases that are
• 52:50
  Speaker 3: in specifically from a Latin book that apparently was known
• 52:56
  Speaker 3: to have been used at his school, at his grammar
• 52:58
  Speaker 3: school in Stratford. So again there's all these little hints
• 53:01
  Speaker 3: and clues. All of it kind of gave me a headache, right,
• 53:06
  Speaker 3: and I was like, can we just like love these plays?
• 53:09
  Speaker 2: Right?
• 53:09
  Speaker 1: Exactly? That's exactly right. It's the ultimate point. Let's just
• 53:13
  Speaker 1: love the plays.
• 53:15
  Speaker 4: People take it serious about this though, Yeah, they definitely do.
• 53:19
  Speaker 1: I mean it's pretty interesting and I mean I get
• 53:20
  Speaker 1: it kind of fun to watch from the outside too. Yeah,
• 53:24
  Speaker 1: you got anything else?
• 53:25
  Speaker 4: No, we could go on all day, but totally we'd
• 53:28
  Speaker 4: never get anywhere.
• 53:29
  Speaker 1: There's like ten things I'm leaving on the table, so
• 53:31
  Speaker 1: we just got to keep moving on, right, all right,
• 53:34
  Speaker 1: Let's keep on keeping on, Chuck. If you want to
• 53:36
  Speaker 1: know more about Shakespeare and authorship, there is a giant,
• 53:40
  Speaker 1: gaping rabbit hole. You can jump down on the internet
• 53:43
  Speaker 1: and say cionara to.
• 53:45
  Speaker 2: All of your other pursuits.
• 53:46
  Speaker 1: And since I said cyonara, it's time for listener mail.
• 53:52
  Speaker 3: I'm gonna call this just came in over the wire.
• 53:54
  Speaker 3: I thought it was kind of funny from our friends.
• 53:57
  Speaker 3: Steven in Kagoshima, Japan, in about eating about eating squid,
• 54:03
  Speaker 3: says love the show fellas reason not to be so
• 54:06
  Speaker 3: touchy though about eating squid, they are child murdering sea vermin,
• 54:13
  Speaker 3: he said. The reason squid die after they mate is
• 54:16
  Speaker 3: a survival adaptation, because if not, they would eat the
• 54:19
  Speaker 3: eggs and newly hatched squid from themselves and other squid
• 54:24
  Speaker 3: in the spawning areas. Squidly diddley is an infanticidal maniac
• 54:31
  Speaker 3: and should be cooked and eaten, albeit sustainably, of course.
• 54:37
  Speaker 4: So that's the argument, is that.
• 54:39
  Speaker 3: These squids deserve to be eaten because they would be
• 54:41
  Speaker 3: eating themselves if not for this adaptation. So he also says,
• 54:46
  Speaker 3: tell Josh not to eat uncooked squid.
• 54:49
  Speaker 4: That is not great.
• 54:50
  Speaker 3: All right, and kind regards from Stephen in Kagoshima, Japan,
• 54:55
  Speaker 3: a squid haven and a squid ink pasta destination.
• 54:59
  Speaker 1: Stephen, that was a really great eye opening email. I
• 55:03
  Speaker 1: may have seen the light. I'm not sure yet. I'll
• 55:05
  Speaker 1: have to get back to you. Okay, okay, thank you
• 55:11
  Speaker 1: for responding to that, Stephen. Sure, if you want to
• 55:13
  Speaker 1: be like Steven and get in touch with us and
• 55:15
  Speaker 1: send us a potentially eye opening email, you.
• 55:19
  Speaker 2: Can do that.
• 55:20
  Speaker 1: Send it off to stuff podcast at iHeartRadio dot com.
• 55:26
  Speaker 4: Stuff you Should Know is a production of iHeartRadio. For
• 55:29
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• 55:33
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