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Martin - ADHD & Bipolar Superpowers · The soulnotskin Podcast with Jen SluMac

• 0:00
  SPEAKER_00: And I just can't handle it.
• 0:01
  SPEAKER_00: I feel like there's no end to school.
• 0:04
  SPEAKER_00: I'm having a hard time focusing, staying on track.
• 0:08
  SPEAKER_00: I don't know, I don't even know what I'm in school for.
• 0:11
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 0:12
  SPEAKER_00: Like I think I want to be, I think I want to be like a nurse or something.
• 0:16
  SPEAKER_00: I don't know.
• 0:19
  SPEAKER_00: Nurses, nurses make good money, maybe.
• 0:21
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 0:22
  SPEAKER_00: Let's take advanced biology on a whim.
• 0:25
  SPEAKER_00: How hard can it be?
• 0:26
  SPEAKER_01: Oh my god, the ADHD personality trying to figure out what they want to do.
• 0:31
  SPEAKER_01: It's like every time you find what you want to do, it takes too long.
• 0:36
  SPEAKER_02: Yep.
• 0:37
  SPEAKER_02: It takes way too long.
• 0:44
  SPEAKER_01: Welcome to the Soul Knot Skin Podcast, a virtual living room, a safe, welcoming place to land, where you can develop and share and share stories straight from the heart.
• 0:54
  SPEAKER_01: I'm your host, Jen Spumack, or as my friends like to call me, this Jen.
• 0:58
  SPEAKER_01: We talked about the real human experience, the hard stuff, the wonderful stuff, and the messy everyday growth that shapes who we become.
• 1:05
  SPEAKER_01: Real stories, real people, real insight, becoming who we are.
• 1:11
  SPEAKER_01: Settle in, and let's dive into today's episode.
• 1:16
  SPEAKER_00: My name's Martin Paris.
• 1:19
  SPEAKER_00: Um, I am 32 years old.
• 1:22
  SPEAKER_00: And in the last couple years, I was recently diagnosed with ADHD and bipolar disorder.
• 1:29
  SPEAKER_00: So going through the journey of adolescence to now in my adulthood, uh starting a career after figuring out how to better take care of myself and handle my diagnosis.
• 1:41
  SPEAKER_00: Um, it's really been a humbling and eye-opening experience.
• 1:47
  SPEAKER_01: Well, as I said to you before we started recording, I first of all really commend you for being able and being willing to talk about this.
• 1:56
  SPEAKER_01: You do work in uh an organization that is focused on mental health and substance use disorder treatment.
• 2:04
  SPEAKER_01: And so even being in that industry, I found it, I guess not maybe not necessary, but I found myself protecting my own mental health challenges that I have learned about in the last 10, 15 years that I can struggle with.
• 2:20
  SPEAKER_01: And so when you said you'd be willing to talk about this, I was really impressed.
• 2:24
  SPEAKER_01: And I didn't know that you were 32.
• 2:26
  SPEAKER_01: 32 is a bit younger than I am.
• 2:28
  SPEAKER_01: And uh and so I I extra appreciate your willingness to talk about this with me and share this with the audience.
• 2:36
  SPEAKER_01: I have some questions because I have a lot to learn, and I'm also going to ask them for for the audience for anybody who might not understand some of what we what we talk about.
• 2:47
  SPEAKER_01: Martin, you said that you have been diagnosed with ADHD and bipolar.
• 2:51
  SPEAKER_01: How, first of all, one of those is a lot to deal with, from what I understand about the two, what do you call conditions?
• 3:00
  SPEAKER_01: I guess what do you what do you call them?
• 3:01
  SPEAKER_00: I don't mean to be uh, you know, nowadays it's superpowers, right?
• 3:05
  SPEAKER_00: Uh but before definitely that yeah, it used to be debilitating, but you you learn how to make it work for you.
• 3:15
  SPEAKER_01: Superpowers.
• 3:16
  SPEAKER_01: Tell me about that.
• 3:17
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, so um I do, even though I'm at a point now in my life where I am medicated and aware of how I'm feeling, you know, I can get a little bit more introspective when I am experiencing some of those symptoms, like hypomania.
• 3:34
  SPEAKER_00: I'm able to, I think, use it in a way that benefits me.
• 3:38
  SPEAKER_00: That's kind of when you know the 12-hour workdays start happening and it feels like I can do it with no effort.
• 3:44
  SPEAKER_00: Like I am up sleeping a little bit, but I'm getting work done.
• 3:48
  SPEAKER_00: Um, it's really beneficial to, you know, help the community that you were and I am working with.
• 3:56
  SPEAKER_00: And it makes me feel like I'm putting in effort from a condition that, again, is often debilitating, but using it to help others with other debilitating or even more serious diagnoses than my own.
• 4:12
  SPEAKER_01: What was it like for you growing up?
• 4:14
  SPEAKER_01: How soon did you find out about the ADHD?
• 4:18
  SPEAKER_01: Did you find out about them simultaneously, or did you sort of find one and then find another?
• 4:24
  SPEAKER_00: Good question.
• 4:25
  SPEAKER_00: Once upon a time, or long, long ago, uh there existed, there existed a uh a 10-year-old version of me.
• 4:36
  SPEAKER_00: Um you know, two parents and a brother growing up in Morgan Hill, California.
• 4:42
  SPEAKER_00: And my diagnosis was pretty far in the future from that point of origin, but uh there's a little bit of context I think that would be helpful.
• 4:54
  SPEAKER_02: Okay.
• 4:55
  SPEAKER_00: So when I was 10, my mother was diagnosed with early onset Alzheimer's.
• 5:03
  SPEAKER_00: Now it was a a bit of a you know a shock.
• 5:07
  SPEAKER_00: And my father, he was not the best communicator of issues like that at the time.
• 5:14
  SPEAKER_00: It was hard for him to talk about, you know, now I get it.
• 5:17
  SPEAKER_00: As an adult, I get it.
• 5:18
  SPEAKER_00: But we hadn't, my brother and I just had no idea what was going on, you know, and we were responsible some of the time for taking care of my mother as she was in her mental health decline, you know, because with Alzheimer's and dementia, she had early onset, which I think affects like five percent of the Alzheimer's population.
• 5:34
  SPEAKER_00: And so she ended up passing away, I think late late 40s in 2012.
• 5:40
  SPEAKER_00: But my brother and I took care of her, helped take care of her.
• 5:44
  SPEAKER_00: So I was, I think, 20 when that happened, or 93, 19, or 20.
• 5:50
  SPEAKER_00: With that, you know, a dad who's working with now three dependent people in the household, um, and then, you know, filling in the gaps with caretaking for a mom who is wandering, gets lost, parked a car at a at a supermarket, and then walked home forgetting where she parked it.
• 6:08
  SPEAKER_00: Like all these things are going on, and we're constantly trying to work to maintain some sense of structure, right?
• 6:16
  SPEAKER_00: With everything, this chaos that's going on, comes a lot of neglect.
• 6:21
  SPEAKER_00: Like, my dad doesn't have the capacity to do things like take my brother and I to the dentist.
• 6:26
  SPEAKER_00: Like, somebody has to be home.
• 6:27
  SPEAKER_00: We have to make sure that she's okay, let alone any kind of therapy or psychiatry session.
• 6:33
  SPEAKER_00: Like, there was just everybody in that household was not the top priority.
• 6:39
  SPEAKER_00: Like it was it was a den of three burly guys uh taking care of uh one very, very special woman.
• 6:49
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, it was hard.
• 6:51
  SPEAKER_00: Uh so getting out of that situation, you know, after my mom passed away.
• 6:56
  SPEAKER_01: Can I just pause you there for a moment, please?
• 6:58
  SPEAKER_00: Go ahead.
• 6:59
  SPEAKER_01: I just I want to take a minute, a few things I I'd like to reflect back, if I may.
• 7:06
  SPEAKER_01: One is you tell the story so beautifully, and you grant such grace to your father.
• 7:16
  SPEAKER_01: You know, during some of the hardest times of our lives, I think we and maybe you were angry or hurt or all of those things, and you've worked those things out.
• 7:26
  SPEAKER_01: And that's that's what I like to say is I like to tell my stories from my my scars, not my wounds.
• 7:33
  SPEAKER_01: But I just want to commend you for being able to sort of frame that so respectfully.
• 7:38
  SPEAKER_01: You certainly might be entitled to to tell that story a little differently because what you describe is very, very hard.
• 7:46
  SPEAKER_01: I just lost my mother uh as well, just in February, and the dementia is just startling.
• 7:55
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, it's just startling.
• 7:57
  SPEAKER_01: And um I won't go into it a great deal.
• 8:01
  SPEAKER_01: I will say I can't imagine if my mother were mobile while she were on that decline.
• 8:07
  SPEAKER_01: So my mother was not, uh, she was bedridden, and so the caretaking was uh was a different kind of challenge.
• 8:19
  SPEAKER_01: But three men trying to take care of what you say, a very special woman while she's in early onset and losing the car and disappearing and wandering, that's terrifying.
• 8:35
  SPEAKER_01: And so you're 20 at this point, is that right?
• 8:38
  SPEAKER_00: Uh 20 when she passed away.
• 8:40
  SPEAKER_00: Her her decline was over the span of about eight years.
• 8:43
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, I really started seeing the effect.
• 8:46
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I really started seeing some of the early more mobile stages of this, like in middle school.
• 8:52
  SPEAKER_00: So, you know, she's like I'm I'm coming home from like the bus, right?
• 8:59
  SPEAKER_00: The school bus after middle school, showing up and like my bedroom is trashed.
• 9:05
  SPEAKER_00: Like she thinks I stole something and that I'm an invader in her home, right?
• 9:09
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, wow.
• 9:11
  SPEAKER_01: Wow, okay.
• 9:13
  SPEAKER_00: There's a lot of confusion at that point in my life, a lot of acceptance, right?
• 9:20
  SPEAKER_00: Like, I think this is normal.
• 9:21
  SPEAKER_00: This is normal life.
• 9:23
  SPEAKER_00: Everybody everybody's got this, nobody else is complaining about it.
• 9:28
  SPEAKER_00: You know, come to find out later, it's not the case.
• 9:31
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, it's once you get to the non-ambulatory stage in the decline, you know, like 18 to 20 years old, things got more manageable.
• 9:42
  SPEAKER_00: And you're almost thankful, right?
• 9:43
  SPEAKER_00: Even though this person is is less uh capable and even further away from the person that you remember, you're thankful that it's easier to manage.
• 9:53
  SPEAKER_00: And with that thanks comes a lot of guilt.
• 9:57
  SPEAKER_00: Um and so now I have these very intense feelings, right?
• 10:03
  SPEAKER_00: There's light at the end of the tunnel, my mom won't be suffering anymore, but you feel guilty because everything about this person has defined your life going into adulthood, and you're just ready for the next chapter.
• 10:23
  SPEAKER_00: Like you need it to be over to survive, you need it to be over.
• 10:28
  SPEAKER_00: Um yeah, coming out of that right now, 20 years old, early adulthood.
• 10:36
  SPEAKER_00: I took off to Denver, Colorado, and I was there for about eight years.
• 10:45
  SPEAKER_00: Um this is when I really started to do kind of my a lot of my introspection, figuring out who I was.
• 10:53
  SPEAKER_00: You know, I had to get out of the house that my mother passed away in, like I couldn't be there.
• 11:00
  SPEAKER_00: And coming out of that situation, all I knew was health care.
• 11:04
  SPEAKER_00: You know, I had like these tricks from a that I like skills that I learned from our in-home nurse hospice care, and uh I put them to use.
• 11:14
  SPEAKER_00: I became an EMT, uh, worked out in Colorado in the 911 system out there.
• 11:20
  SPEAKER_01: Wow.
• 11:21
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, eventually uh it became too much.
• 11:26
  SPEAKER_00: Uh it was just you know, you start out with a job like that coming from the situation I was in, and you're so desensitized to everything.
• 11:38
  SPEAKER_00: And uh it made me good at the job.
• 11:41
  SPEAKER_00: Like I could stay calm, I could be professional, I've seen some stuff, you know what I mean?
• 11:47
  SPEAKER_02: Right, right.
• 11:48
  SPEAKER_00: So that's kind of circling back on superpower.
• 11:53
  SPEAKER_00: It was uh it was pretty like I was proud of it.
• 11:57
  SPEAKER_00: I had to own it, right?
• 11:58
  SPEAKER_00: Like this, my life experiences of shaped who I am.
• 12:01
  SPEAKER_00: I have a skill set that not everyone has.
• 12:03
  SPEAKER_00: What do I do with it?
• 12:05
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but I asked myself that a lot.
• 12:07
  SPEAKER_00: And this I think is where maybe the first bit of ADHD, like the hints of it started coming in, is I could not focus or be disciplined enough to stay in a role professionally.
• 12:21
  SPEAKER_00: Like, like I just wanted to do the next big thing.
• 12:23
  SPEAKER_00: Now, like, okay, I feel like I've figured this out, I got what I wanted from it, I'm bored.
• 12:27
  SPEAKER_00: Now what?
• 12:29
  SPEAKER_00: Moving into dental care.
• 12:33
  SPEAKER_00: I was an oral surgery assistant for about a year, uh, using my EMT skills to help monitor like vital signs during during sedation.
• 12:43
  SPEAKER_00: Again, fully enveloped in my work, just distracted, really trying to numb out of my 20s, basically.
• 12:51
  SPEAKER_00: Like I didn't want to process my feelings, scared to face them.
• 12:56
  SPEAKER_01: Um the fact that you even know that you have them, Martin.
• 13:00
  SPEAKER_01: There's so many of us running around on this planet who are have so much unresolved grief and so much unresolved pain.
• 13:09
  SPEAKER_01: And you know, not to be like, I'm not trying to be like just a you know, a friggin' rain cloud over humanity, but I mean, truth, truth be told, there are so many of us who are just walking around and in chronic distraction, right?
• 13:27
  SPEAKER_01: With busyness, with just chasing dopamine, just trying to to do anything other than sit still with ourselves and feel the pain, right?
• 13:40
  SPEAKER_01: Because we don't know how to.
• 13:42
  SPEAKER_01: So the story that you're telling me, uh, it makes a lot of sense to me for a lot of reasons.
• 13:47
  SPEAKER_01: Interesting, quick tangent.
• 13:50
  SPEAKER_01: I had my favorite aunt when I was in college.
• 13:52
  SPEAKER_01: She was hit by a car while she was crossing the street, going to the library.
• 13:57
  SPEAKER_01: She flew like six feet, landed on her head, had to get helicoptered off to a to a specialty place, was in a coma for quite some time, had to have part of her brain removed, but survived.
• 14:10
  SPEAKER_01: And her, I think at the time, seven and nine-year-old child were her caretakers and were responsible for giving her her multiple times a day seizure anti-seizure medications and such.
• 14:26
  SPEAKER_01: And there's like 15 pills to 20 pills in the morning and then different ones at night.
• 14:33
  SPEAKER_01: Like it was a big thing.
• 14:34
  SPEAKER_01: And I just remember watching rock little little Bobby walking around taking care of his mom that way, and he and his sister went into become EMTs.
• 14:44
  SPEAKER_01: Wow.
• 14:44
  SPEAKER_01: So so I think the superpower that you speak of, um, that there's really something to that.
• 14:52
  SPEAKER_01: But anyhow, let's let's hear where you are next.
• 14:56
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 14:57
  SPEAKER_00: The healthcare scene, I kind of it's a wrap.
• 14:59
  SPEAKER_00: Like I I need to do something more with my life.
• 15:02
  SPEAKER_00: A lot of the EMT and dental assisting jobs, right?
• 15:06
  SPEAKER_00: It's not the long-term career I wanted, it's not sustainable.
• 15:09
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but at this point, I'm just trying to stay afloat.
• 15:13
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 15:14
  SPEAKER_00: A lot of this depression, I think, really hit with the realization that I was so far away from my family.
• 15:22
  SPEAKER_00: In the Bay Area where I'm from, I have about well over like 150 blood relatives in the area here.
• 15:30
  SPEAKER_00: Uh both both sides of my family, yeah.
• 15:33
  SPEAKER_00: And obviously out in Colorado, none of that's there.
• 15:36
  SPEAKER_00: So I didn't have that big of a network.
• 15:38
  SPEAKER_00: You know, I had I had some friends, but again, the friends were kind of a distraction, right?
• 15:43
  SPEAKER_00: Like we don't talk about anything super deep.
• 15:45
  SPEAKER_00: It's still stigmatized in my mind.
• 15:49
  SPEAKER_00: That's not what we provide each other, I guess, in in that sort of setting.
• 15:54
  SPEAKER_01: Well, and sometimes that helps us stay alive.
• 15:57
  SPEAKER_01: You know what I mean?
• 15:58
  SPEAKER_01: Sometimes we need just the easy going, hanging out, not talking about deep things, friendships.
• 16:05
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, they those can save our lives.
• 16:08
  SPEAKER_00: Yep.
• 16:09
  SPEAKER_00: And I think I think they did.
• 16:10
  SPEAKER_00: I really do think they did.
• 16:13
  SPEAKER_00: You know, it served a purpose.
• 16:14
  SPEAKER_00: I very thankful for those friends I made.
• 16:17
  SPEAKER_00: I still keep in contact with a couple of them.
• 16:19
  SPEAKER_00: Uh good.
• 16:21
  SPEAKER_00: Back in California.
• 16:22
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 16:23
  SPEAKER_00: And uh it was really helpful for getting me into the part of my life.
• 16:28
  SPEAKER_00: Now we're entering where I get really, really introspective and really trying to do the work of figuring out what's going on.
• 16:37
  SPEAKER_00: 28, like 29 years old comes around and I fully break down.
• 16:45
  SPEAKER_00: Like I am not sustainable in with my mental health.
• 16:49
  SPEAKER_00: I've been trying to go back to school, but this feeling of worthlessness when not working, um, not providing anything, has been weighing on me.
• 16:59
  SPEAKER_00: Like, I need to be productive, I need to be doing something, right?
• 17:03
  SPEAKER_00: And I just can't handle it.
• 17:04
  SPEAKER_00: I feel like there's no end to school.
• 17:07
  SPEAKER_00: I'm having a hard time focusing, staying on track.
• 17:11
  SPEAKER_00: I don't know, I don't even know what I'm in school for, right?
• 17:15
  SPEAKER_00: Like I think I want to be, I think I want to be like a nurse or something.
• 17:19
  SPEAKER_00: I don't know.
• 17:22
  SPEAKER_00: Nurses, nurses make good money, maybe.
• 17:24
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 17:25
  SPEAKER_00: Let's take advanced biology on a whim.
• 17:28
  SPEAKER_00: How hard can it be?
• 17:29
  SPEAKER_01: Oh my god, the ADHD personality trying to figure out what they want to do.
• 17:34
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, it's like every time you find what you want to do, it takes too long.
• 17:39
  SPEAKER_01: Yep.
• 17:40
  SPEAKER_01: It takes way too long.
• 17:41
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, so are you forgive me, you're back in the Bay Area at this point?
• 17:46
  SPEAKER_00: I am.
• 17:46
  SPEAKER_00: I actually like tried to go to Cal, but I ended up doing a um a boot camp through them.
• 17:53
  SPEAKER_00: A uh okay, cool, a yeah, data analytics boot camp through Cal while working on um a math degree.
• 18:02
  SPEAKER_02: Okay.
• 18:03
  SPEAKER_00: So this is kind of where I revisit kind of what I'm good at, how I want to achieve that goal, how do I do that?
• 18:10
  SPEAKER_00: And uh part of it came with breaking down, thinking about how what was me, how hard my life was, like how do we get it together now.
• 18:21
  SPEAKER_00: And I think seeking help with my mental health, psychiatry, and therapy was step number one.
• 18:27
  SPEAKER_00: In doing that, I found out that I have ADHD and bipolar disorder.
• 18:33
  SPEAKER_00: I didn't fully understand bipolar disorder at the time.
• 18:36
  SPEAKER_00: ADHD, I was a little more familiar with because you know I had a couple friends who who had it.
• 18:42
  SPEAKER_00: They sort of brushed it off.
• 18:44
  SPEAKER_00: I think they were they were okay with it.
• 18:46
  SPEAKER_00: They had their own things, their own interests.
• 18:48
  SPEAKER_00: They were okay being like the dog chasing cars.
• 18:52
  SPEAKER_00: They they they made it work.
• 18:54
  SPEAKER_00: But that kind of like fleeting thoughts don't help you achieve long-term goals, right?
• 19:01
  SPEAKER_00: I wanted to make sure I was able to really, really settle in and drill down on what was going on, uh, just in my own life.
• 19:07
  SPEAKER_00: The bipolar disorder was a little bit harder to spot.
• 19:10
  SPEAKER_00: And that one I think was undiagnosed for a long time because of the neglect of you know the childhood experience that I had.
• 19:19
  SPEAKER_00: There was really no time to take care of my brother and I in a deeper way where we can really notice issues and poor school performance or anything like that.
• 19:29
  SPEAKER_00: And so coming around and reading about issues that people are having and describing my symptoms, they're like, oh yeah, like this is really what's going on.
• 19:39
  SPEAKER_00: It was eye-opening.
• 19:40
  SPEAKER_00: Reading about it, you know, oh yeah, I have been not sleeping well.
• 19:44
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, yeah, I have felt pretty, pretty good on certain days and not needing sleep.
• 19:49
  SPEAKER_00: Oh yeah, I do have those weekends where all I want to do is sleep, and I do get irritable and I do get frustrated and I'm not achieving what I want to achieve.
• 19:59
  SPEAKER_00: So after getting help, I realized this is probably the best thing that's ever happened to me.
• 20:05
  SPEAKER_01: Discovering and having a diagnosis.
• 20:08
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, discovering and having a diagnosis, having an answer.
• 20:12
  SPEAKER_00: Um, you know, again, like in in my life, I didn't know what was going on with my mom, I didn't know where my dad was at, I didn't know how my brother was doing.
• 20:20
  SPEAKER_00: I like I just never had answers.
• 20:23
  SPEAKER_00: And now I finally had an answer.
• 20:25
  SPEAKER_00: Not only was it an answer, but it was like validating in my experience.
• 20:30
  SPEAKER_02: Sure.
• 20:30
  SPEAKER_00: Like how I felt was seen by somebody for the first time.
• 20:33
  SPEAKER_00: Like we're not in the neglect anymore.
• 20:36
  SPEAKER_00: We're we're out there, like we're documented.
• 20:40
  SPEAKER_01: You're so funny.
• 20:41
  SPEAKER_01: Like, I'm real, I'm real now.
• 20:43
  SPEAKER_01: I'm on paper.
• 20:44
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I'm real now.
• 20:45
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I think it's pretty common the two of them together, something like 25% or something of adults with bipolar also have ADHD.
• 20:55
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but it's it's interesting because ADHD is sort of always on.
• 21:01
  SPEAKER_01: And my understanding of bipolar is that it's sort of episodic, right?
• 21:05
  SPEAKER_01: So you've got this like chronic presentation of restlessness, or like you're feeling like your your brain is driving like a race car, you know, ever since you were little.
• 21:17
  SPEAKER_01: But then, you know, the flip of that with bipolar is, you know, you get these like limitless energies.
• 21:24
  SPEAKER_01: I can do anything, and it's not going to impact my my energy level, right?
• 21:30
  SPEAKER_01: As a mania, or total exhaustion, just complete depletion, absolute depletion, being the depression.
• 21:38
  SPEAKER_01: And so when those are sort of comorbid and you've got this race car brain constantly, how is that exacerbated by the limitless energy of a mania?
• 21:50
  SPEAKER_00: Sure.
• 21:51
  SPEAKER_00: So I've heard a lot of clinical terms in my in my journey to get to where I am, but I'm not an expert by any means.
• 21:59
  SPEAKER_00: So um This is kind of coming from what I feel and like how describe it, right?
• 22:06
  SPEAKER_00: I feel like the ADHD part is like the part of the decision making uh affects the decision making, right?
• 22:15
  SPEAKER_00: You know, like you said, you're chasing dopamine.
• 22:17
  SPEAKER_00: What provides me dopamine?
• 22:18
  SPEAKER_00: Let's do that because I get dopamine from that and that feels good.
• 22:20
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, that dopamine source is tapped.
• 22:22
  SPEAKER_00: Let's go to the next one and do that.
• 22:23
  SPEAKER_01: Is it is it something where you decide, ah, I'm bored with this and you put it down, or I'm bored with that and I put it down?
• 22:29
  SPEAKER_01: Or does your brain just sort of seek out like a heat-seeking missile?
• 22:34
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, is that what distraction is, right?
• 22:36
  SPEAKER_01: Something else comes along and gives you a better uh bump of dopamine, and so you go in that direction instead.
• 22:43
  SPEAKER_01: Because for me, it's not so much incessant choosing as it is fleeting thoughts.
• 22:49
  SPEAKER_00: All the fleeting thoughts about where you want to be, and I guess just what you want to focus on.
• 22:56
  SPEAKER_00: Uh if you can focus, and then get you know, get to the next thing like focus is overrated.
• 23:04
  SPEAKER_01: Focus is overrated.
• 23:05
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 23:06
  SPEAKER_00: I feel like typically there's a stopping point.
• 23:08
  SPEAKER_00: You're like, okay, I've looked at this number of things and now I'm overwhelmed.
• 23:12
  SPEAKER_00: And you know what?
• 23:13
  SPEAKER_00: I I've got analysis, paralysis, and and we're stopping.
• 23:16
  SPEAKER_00: I feel like that's what I would experience as ADHD.
• 23:20
  SPEAKER_00: However, when I throw the bipolar disorder in, I feel like there is no stopping this feeling of chasing the next source of dopamine.
• 23:31
  SPEAKER_00: Like, I don't feel like I get tired.
• 23:34
  SPEAKER_00: Like, I feel like I am able to constantly look for the next source of dopamine.
• 23:43
  SPEAKER_00: And like I don't get overwhelmed by the decision making.
• 23:46
  SPEAKER_00: I I feel like I'm, you know, unstoppable.
• 23:49
  SPEAKER_00: Like I'm constantly making the best decision ever, and everything I choose is correct.
• 23:53
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm amazing.
• 23:54
  SPEAKER_00: Right on.
• 23:55
  SPEAKER_00: And yeah, yeah.
• 23:56
  SPEAKER_01: Like the the that's a big distinction.
• 23:58
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, a big distinction.
• 24:00
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, it feels longer lasting.
• 24:01
  SPEAKER_00: It feels uh honestly, it's more dangerous, right?
• 24:04
  SPEAKER_00: Because bipolar disorder, like engaging in risky or dangerous behavior, and those that can help affect your decision making if your impulse control is um poor.
• 24:15
  SPEAKER_00: Now your dopamine can come from a wider source, but those additional sources are not good.
• 24:23
  SPEAKER_01: What compelled you to seek therapy that's remarkable and uncommon?
• 24:29
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 24:30
  SPEAKER_00: So part of my um move out to Colorado, right, from California, was you know, with a high school sweetheart, right?
• 24:41
  SPEAKER_00: She's getting me to a master's program.
• 24:44
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 24:45
  SPEAKER_00: She's getting me to a master's program at uh DU.
• 24:49
  SPEAKER_00: Uh and it's in psychology.
• 24:52
  SPEAKER_00: Should be a uh LFT, licensed family therapist.
• 24:59
  SPEAKER_01: LMFT.
• 25:00
  SPEAKER_00: LMFT.
• 25:01
  SPEAKER_00: That's the one.
• 25:02
  SPEAKER_00: And so uh I kind of got a a peek into that education process.
• 25:08
  SPEAKER_00: I heard all the terms, I was asked to be in demonstration videos for classes.
• 25:12
  SPEAKER_00: Um just kind of oversaturated with knowledge of the field at that time.
• 25:17
  SPEAKER_00: Um, you learn all the terms, all the phrases, all the different scales, that kind of thing.
• 25:23
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and some of it's starting to click.
• 25:25
  SPEAKER_00: I'm like, oh man, I should probably look into that.
• 25:28
  SPEAKER_00: Like, you know, this DSM5 book over here may know what it's talking about.
• 25:31
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, in layman's terms, which I I love a good layman, is uh just a book full of like mental health diagnoses that a person can be diagnosed with.
• 25:43
  SPEAKER_00: It spells it out for you, it gives you the criteria.
• 25:46
  SPEAKER_01: The psychiatrist and such, it's just a book of symptoms, essentially, that qualify as the different diagnoses, right?
• 25:54
  SPEAKER_01: Yep.
• 25:54
  SPEAKER_01: Um, so you're learning about that, and uh you're getting a head full of terminology and it's landing, it's making sense to you.
• 26:02
  SPEAKER_01: And so you're being introduced to again, you're seeing this is a real thing, right?
• 26:06
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, it's a real thing.
• 26:08
  SPEAKER_00: And I think with that knowledge and again the introspection, it's actually kind of bogging me down, like it's bumming me out, right?
• 26:18
  SPEAKER_00: You think, oh, I have all these things, oh, now we have the labels.
• 26:20
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, I've only ever heard these labels in negative context in my life because of stigma against mental health, and now they're applied to me, and this doesn't feel great.
• 26:31
  SPEAKER_00: And you know, grief.
• 26:33
  SPEAKER_00: And you know, I'm watching someone be so successful in their education, go on to be so successful in their career, and I just cannot do it.
• 26:41
  SPEAKER_00: And I feel like I'm smart enough, I feel like I should have the discipline, but it's just not there, nothing is clicking.
• 26:48
  SPEAKER_00: So this leads to the full breakdown where I, you know, lose the relationship, I just get out of Colorado, I come back to California.
• 26:57
  SPEAKER_00: Thankfully, my family took me in, and I'm able to, you know, put school on pause and sort of take it a little bit slower before rushing it and getting through a boot camp process.
• 27:13
  SPEAKER_00: Um, also, shout out to boot camps.
• 27:15
  SPEAKER_00: If if you have to be in school for a little bit of time and you don't have the attention span to go for like four years, do a boot camp.
• 27:23
  SPEAKER_00: Three months.
• 27:24
  SPEAKER_01: Is it just an accelerated uh yeah?
• 27:27
  SPEAKER_00: They're really common in Silicon Valley.
• 27:28
  SPEAKER_00: It's just like a specialized program where they teach you skills that are career oriented.
• 27:32
  SPEAKER_00: It's kind of like a vocational training.
• 27:34
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, but mine was yeah, mine was in data analytics.
• 27:38
  SPEAKER_00: I did it through Berkeley, and that's kind of how I got into the career that I'm in.
• 27:42
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 27:43
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 27:43
  SPEAKER_00: Um, it was it fit.
• 27:45
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 27:45
  SPEAKER_00: After I got back, I sought help.
• 27:48
  SPEAKER_00: I got medicated, um, talking to a therapist, and I pivoted into the boot camp and was able to get my career rolling from there.
• 27:58
  SPEAKER_00: I was able to focus.
• 28:00
  SPEAKER_00: I was able to realize, like, hey, you are good at this.
• 28:04
  SPEAKER_00: You are smart enough to get this done and be in this field.
• 28:08
  SPEAKER_00: And that transition away from all the healthcare was like my first time I felt like I was taking care of myself, getting help, getting into what I wanted to get into, and not taking care of other people.
• 28:24
  SPEAKER_00: And it was a wild feeling.
• 28:29
  SPEAKER_01: Powerful feeling, I imagine.
• 28:31
  unknown: Yeah.
• 28:32
  SPEAKER_01: A really powerful feeling.
• 28:33
  SPEAKER_00: Really powerful.
• 28:35
  unknown: Yeah.
• 28:35
  SPEAKER_01: Empowering.
• 28:36
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, go ahead.
• 29:15
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, no, I was just gonna say, especially when you get over the hump of feeling like you know, you're being selfish, you know, or even you're not worth it.
• 29:24
  SPEAKER_01: Um Tell me about that.
• 29:27
  SPEAKER_01: What do you mean?
• 29:28
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, like, you know, if I feel sometimes you feel right, like the low points with bipolar disorder were really low.
• 29:41
  SPEAKER_00: And it would get to a point where I'm like, I have I have this problem, I don't know what I'm doing, I don't know how to integrate it into my life in an effective way.
• 29:52
  SPEAKER_00: What's the point?
• 29:53
  SPEAKER_00: Why even try?
• 29:56
  SPEAKER_00: I should do something that betters another person's life because that's what I've been doing, that's what I know how to do.
• 30:04
  SPEAKER_00: And they have maybe possibly a better life than I do, and you know, they haven't lost hope yet.
• 30:12
  SPEAKER_00: So I should support them, put me on the back burner.
• 30:15
  SPEAKER_00: This is my purpose.
• 30:17
  SPEAKER_00: Um of course that translates to like lack of self-worth, right?
• 30:24
  SPEAKER_00: And so kind of getting everything together, getting all these feelings together, and finally taking a moment to finish my education, get a career on track at the age of 30.
• 30:39
  SPEAKER_00: Like, finally got it together enough to where I could pursue something with upward mobility and benefits and all this stuff, right?
• 30:48
  SPEAKER_01: I didn't get my ADHD diagnosis until I was 40.
• 30:51
  SPEAKER_01: So I had no idea, and I was struggling tremendously.
• 30:55
  SPEAKER_01: Our timeline is not too far off.
• 30:57
  SPEAKER_01: I actually got my very first salary position.
• 31:02
  SPEAKER_01: I was about 32 years old.
• 31:04
  SPEAKER_01: So it is.
• 31:05
  SPEAKER_01: It's startling to start getting it together.
• 31:09
  SPEAKER_01: Um, what feels like a decade or two late.
• 31:13
  SPEAKER_01: If I'm honest, I had become so discouraged about seeing things through a symptom of ADHD that I didn't know that I had yet.
• 31:23
  SPEAKER_01: That I had a fantasy that if I could just go to LA and do an incredible 15-minute set and be discovered by somebody and get a sitcom, then I would not ever have to get a nine to five.
• 31:36
  SPEAKER_01: I had resigned to that, completely disillusioned the discipline that it requires, how much work it took to get that, watching the people around me just, you know, consistently write and consistently perform new material and consistently advanced.
• 31:52
  SPEAKER_01: Now that I've had the opportunity to learn about and address my own mental health challenges, I sort of grieve for what might have been if I had the opportunity to think straight.
• 32:02
  SPEAKER_01: If I hadn't learned to rely on alcohol to quiet my brain, you know, the whole road that that took me down into alcoholism, it just is humbling.
• 32:14
  SPEAKER_01: You inspire me though.
• 32:16
  SPEAKER_01: I think you're much farther along in talking openly about the challenges you've faced with your mental health than I've ever been.
• 32:24
  SPEAKER_01: Suddenly I remember that surviving trauma and alcoholism and undiagnosed mental health challenges.
• 32:36
  SPEAKER_01: Pretty important.
• 32:38
  SPEAKER_01: So there's so much value in the journey, but it's sometimes it's just laughable having to adult.
• 32:45
  SPEAKER_01: Um it's just really hard to grow up at this age, you know.
• 32:51
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 32:52
  SPEAKER_00: In uh forget what part of the college process it was, but there was like uh something I remember reading that said if you're over the age of 25 in college, you're considered a quote unquote adult learner.
• 33:06
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 33:07
  SPEAKER_00: I'm I'm the old guy now.
• 33:09
  SPEAKER_00: That's just it is the truth.
• 33:11
  SPEAKER_00: That's awesome.
• 33:12
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I'm an adult learner.
• 33:13
  SPEAKER_00: I guess that's me.
• 33:15
  SPEAKER_00: Um, yeah.
• 33:17
  SPEAKER_00: So I I get it.
• 33:18
  SPEAKER_00: I get totally um, yeah.
• 33:22
  SPEAKER_01: And it's so so here you are pursuing a career, finding yourself on a track where you're you said uh contributing to a 401k, you've got benefits.
• 33:30
  SPEAKER_01: Like you're a grown-up now, like you're doing your grown-up thing.
• 33:33
  SPEAKER_00: I'm sustainable, I'm staying afloat.
• 33:35
  SPEAKER_00: I'm doing and you're managing your mental health, and I'm managing my mental health, yeah.
• 33:40
  SPEAKER_00: I have the attention span to have a drive now and trajectory and stay on course with the bipolar disorder, you know, less of a roller coaster, more of a steady, lazy river.
• 33:52
  SPEAKER_00: It's been really good.
• 33:54
  SPEAKER_00: I I still have my moments, of course.
• 33:56
  SPEAKER_00: Like medication isn't a cure, it just helps manage the symptoms and makes them easier to cope with.
• 34:03
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, but when I do feel those instances of of highs or even lows, I know how to adjust my life around it.
• 34:11
  SPEAKER_00: I'll take a weekend where I'm not talking to anybody.
• 34:15
  SPEAKER_00: Like I work from home and there's some days where I don't see the sun for like I I don't know, like a week.
• 34:23
  SPEAKER_00: Um, not the best, but certainly could be worse.
• 34:27
  SPEAKER_01: And uh yeah, when I feel you don't see the sun for a week because you're because you're working or because you're in a depression and you're not going outside.
• 34:38
  SPEAKER_00: Both, yeah, yeah.
• 34:40
  SPEAKER_00: Or it comes on both ends.
• 34:42
  SPEAKER_00: There's like the work thing is pretty loaded, right?
• 34:46
  SPEAKER_00: You you start a career a little bit later in life, you've got these mental health issues working against you.
• 34:53
  SPEAKER_00: I feel like I need to rush, like I need to slingshot my career.
• 34:57
  SPEAKER_00: I need to get to where I can be the adult that I'm feel I'm supposed to be, right?
• 35:02
  SPEAKER_00: Like I want the promotion, I want the everything.
• 35:05
  SPEAKER_00: I'm like, I was lagging, but I caught up.
• 35:08
  SPEAKER_00: Here I am, and then you know, I deserve to be here.
• 35:11
  SPEAKER_00: Um that being said, like when I'm feeling like part of my personal life is hard, right?
• 35:17
  SPEAKER_00: People do escape into their work.
• 35:20
  SPEAKER_00: And so that uh, you know, I'm not immune to that.
• 35:24
  SPEAKER_00: But also when I feel like I can conquer the world, or when I feel right, the hypomania, like the this unstoppable, borderline unstoppable feeling, I get work done.
• 35:37
  SPEAKER_00: Like I solve problems.
• 35:39
  SPEAKER_00: I feel like I know the answer to this, and let me make this system and find this information for you.
• 35:46
  SPEAKER_00: And oh, you want that?
• 35:48
  SPEAKER_00: Well, here's that and more.
• 35:50
  SPEAKER_00: Here I made it better, and it's been really rewarding.
• 35:53
  SPEAKER_01: No, and I I witnessed that.
• 35:55
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, we worked together for some time, and um, I was on the receiving end of I guess now I'm learning some of those times where you know, I I watched you build systems uh with the IT team.
• 36:10
  SPEAKER_01: But what a neat thing to learn that that's that you've been able to harness these superpowers, right?
• 36:16
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 36:17
  SPEAKER_01: Now, I'm never gonna not think of these things as superpowers now, Martin.
• 36:21
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you for that.
• 36:22
  SPEAKER_01: I love that.
• 36:23
  SPEAKER_01: And I just really celebrate you for offering to share your story with us today.
• 36:30
  SPEAKER_01: I think it's very courageous, it has been a real gift for me.
• 36:35
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I I appreciate you saying that.
• 36:39
  SPEAKER_00: It's been a hard road for sure, and I'm glad now to have the opportunities to consistently be where I feel like I'm needed.
• 36:50
  SPEAKER_00: Um it's been humbling.
• 36:55
  SPEAKER_00: And more than that, thankfully, it's been, you know, like you said, helpful to other people.
• 37:02
  SPEAKER_00: Well, I work at a substance use facility and I get to do data analytics, and I get to have that impacted by my ENT experience.
• 37:12
  SPEAKER_00: So I know how some of these emergency workflows work.
• 37:16
  SPEAKER_00: I know what data is relevant to the medical field, and then I can apply that to just the day-to-day and make sure that the workflows are flowing.
• 37:28
  SPEAKER_00: It's like I truly feel like everything in my life has led to this particular job.
• 37:34
  SPEAKER_00: Healthcare, data analytics, helping other people attain resources and try to live their best life.
• 37:42
  SPEAKER_00: And being the mental health advocate at a mental health and substance use facility when so many coworkers, you know, are in recovery themselves, and the mental health part, you know, is still shrouded in mystery to some people.
• 37:55
  SPEAKER_00: Um it's nice to feel like I have you know the street cred to be there.
• 38:01
  SPEAKER_01: I love that, man.
• 38:03
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, I do happen to know that the organization that you work with has um incredible benefits, and uh I'm grateful that that is the case.
• 38:14
  SPEAKER_01: I know it was helpful for me when I was there, and my hope is that folks at the organization do take advantage of it.
• 38:21
  SPEAKER_01: Are you open about this in general, just in conversations with folks?
• 38:27
  SPEAKER_00: Um a couple people I work with know.
• 38:30
  SPEAKER_00: I think, you know, uh when the uh like Microsoft Teams status rats you out and says you were last seen at 1 a.m.
• 38:38
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, people start to ask questions.
• 38:42
  SPEAKER_02: Like, I'll let you know what are you doing at 1 a.m.
• 38:44
  SPEAKER_00: Martin was last online at like 3:30 in the morning.
• 38:48
  SPEAKER_00: What's he doing?
• 38:48
  SPEAKER_02: Oh, that's funny, man.
• 38:50
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and then you get a message from your coworker being like, long night.
• 38:54
  SPEAKER_00: Like, actually, yeah.
• 38:56
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 38:57
  SPEAKER_01: And you're in it, so you can't say, well, my computer clock must have glitched or something.
• 39:03
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah.
• 39:04
  SPEAKER_01: You're not gonna get away with that one.
• 39:05
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, my cat hit the power button or something.
• 39:08
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, that's that's hilarious.
• 39:10
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, so that was sort of the first, it didn't require an explanation, but I think it was a good moment to bond with you know my coworkers who may be suffering similar issues.
• 39:21
  SPEAKER_00: But no, I mean, I am open to it.
• 39:24
  SPEAKER_00: I think I'm still in a headspace where uh other people's problems may be bigger than my own.
• 39:31
  SPEAKER_00: Like, how how would I ever dump what I have on somebody who's also handling a lot?
• 39:36
  SPEAKER_00: Um, if people want to ask, I am open.
• 39:40
  SPEAKER_00: I'm very open.
• 39:41
  SPEAKER_00: Um yeah, I do welcome it because you know it's uh I like quick tangent.
• 39:48
  SPEAKER_00: I happen to have a few friends who are in the military.
• 39:51
  SPEAKER_00: You know, they are seeking like disability benefits and trying to rack their brain about what their retirement looks like and how they can get treatment for some things they're feeling.
• 40:02
  SPEAKER_00: And they don't have any of the terms, they don't know what bipolar means, they don't know what sure.
• 40:09
  SPEAKER_00: Um so talking to them about the benefits of things like medication and therapy, they're they're catching on and they're starting to uh really take it seriously.
• 40:20
  SPEAKER_00: And you know, I care about these people.
• 40:22
  SPEAKER_00: I've known a couple of them for like 20 plus years.
• 40:26
  SPEAKER_00: It's been really good.
• 40:27
  SPEAKER_00: It's brought me closer to some people than I ever thought I would be.
• 40:33
  SPEAKER_00: I think it's really opened up a lot of doors when it comes to forming meaningful connections with people.
• 40:42
  SPEAKER_01: First, we have to know ourselves, then we have to have processed uh what we found, right?
• 40:48
  SPEAKER_01: And do the work.
• 40:50
  SPEAKER_01: And then we have it to share with others and maybe introduce that courage and that uh, you know, the resources that we've learned.
• 40:57
  SPEAKER_01: You're providing me with some courage to talk about these things a little bit more openly.
• 41:02
  SPEAKER_01: I think you make a really good point that there's a lot of people who don't even know the beginning of the words.
• 41:08
  SPEAKER_01: Like we don't, all we know is that you're not supposed to have problems with your mental health.
• 41:13
  SPEAKER_01: Like that says something about you.
• 41:15
  SPEAKER_01: You know, I'm still old school enough to concern myself with that.
• 41:19
  SPEAKER_01: What would people think if they knew this about that I struggled with?
• 41:23
  SPEAKER_01: And so I think it's just really important that we have these conversations out loud.
• 41:27
  SPEAKER_01: My hope and dream is that somebody will be in the car on their way home after a hard day and find this podcast and in the privacy of their own car be able to reflect and identify and maybe reach out for help, you know.
• 41:41
  SPEAKER_01: And to be fair, you and I are both sitting here having a conversation that's very coherent and uplifting.
• 41:48
  SPEAKER_01: And um, this too shall pass.
• 41:52
  SPEAKER_01: Right?
• 41:53
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, there will be dips that feel like free falls that are agonizing, uh, that we have to wait through to get to the other side of again, right?
• 42:06
  SPEAKER_01: To find that productivity and to find that that space for being able to be productive.
• 42:12
  SPEAKER_01: And so it's not a one and done thing, it's a lifelong process.
• 42:16
  SPEAKER_01: And oh God, I'm so glad that I met you, Martin.
• 42:19
  SPEAKER_01: I'm so glad that you're in my life.
• 42:21
  SPEAKER_00: Same, Jen.
• 42:22
  SPEAKER_01: I really am.
• 42:24
  unknown: Yeah.
• 42:24
  SPEAKER_01: Do you have anything that you'd like to say uh to anybody before we go?
• 42:29
  SPEAKER_00: Um, let's get the cliche out of the way.
• 42:31
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, it gets better.
• 42:33
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and then be beyond that, I mean, don't be afraid to talk about anything and everything.
• 42:41
  SPEAKER_00: If you aren't talking about it, it's a facade and people in your life like you, but it will never be for the complete you.
• 42:49
  SPEAKER_00: So lay it all out there.
• 42:51
  SPEAKER_00: Let them know.
• 42:52
  SPEAKER_00: And if they stick around, uh, those are the people that you want to keep.
• 42:56
  SPEAKER_01: Wow.
• 42:57
  SPEAKER_01: What are you made of?
• 42:59
  SPEAKER_01: I love that.
• 43:01
  SPEAKER_01: No, I just I I wish at 32 I had that capacity to to live that way.
• 43:09
  SPEAKER_01: I think it's remarkable.
• 43:11
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I you know, time is precious.
• 43:14
  SPEAKER_00: And you know, if you lose a loved one early enough, you you are shown that immediately.
• 43:20
  SPEAKER_00: And so there's there's value in being forthcoming.
• 43:26
  SPEAKER_00: You're eliminating so much of the process of getting to know someone on a deeper level that you start deep and work your way up.
• 43:35
  SPEAKER_00: Like if we can like you can connect with anybody on a shallow level, right?
• 43:40
  SPEAKER_00: Like, oh, your favorite color is blue, my favorite color is blue, and we're best friends now.
• 43:44
  SPEAKER_00: It's just not how the world works.
• 43:47
  SPEAKER_00: Like, you know, you you find out, like, let's say, you know, you connect with this person and then you find out their political views, and now you're taking a big step back.
• 43:56
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, lead with the big stuff, you know, sort it out, sorted everything else will come.
• 44:03
  SPEAKER_01: I know that we're out of time here, but I just completely 100% agree with that.
• 44:08
  SPEAKER_01: I have always been a dive right into the dirt kind of girl.
• 44:12
  SPEAKER_01: I would rather live talking about the really, really hard hurting stuff and meandering through it with people uh to grow and to heal and to do those things rather than talk about the weather.
• 44:27
  SPEAKER_01: I just can't.
• 44:29
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 44:29
  SPEAKER_01: I'm actually working to get back into the jails and the prisons uh right now, hopefully getting in there and teaching.
• 44:36
  SPEAKER_01: Again, which I've done in the past, and it's just really where I thrive.
• 44:41
  SPEAKER_01: So I agree with that.
• 44:42
  SPEAKER_01: You know, let people know who you are.
• 44:44
  SPEAKER_01: And the younger folks get to come out about these mental health challenges and speak about them openly, you know, maybe the younger people will get to get a handle on them.
• 44:58
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 44:58
  SPEAKER_01: Because I was diagnosed with things later in life and it's been a real challenge.
• 45:04
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you so much.
• 45:05
  SPEAKER_00: Of course, Jen, anytime.
• 45:13
  SPEAKER_01: If this conversation sparked something for you, or if you want to dive deeper, head over to soulnotskin.com and take a look around.
• 45:21
  SPEAKER_01: Grab a copy of the book, Soulknot Skin, Free Resources, or get on the wait list for our next workshop.
• 45:28
  SPEAKER_01: I hope you'll pull up a chair next time to hang out with us again.
• 45:31
  SPEAKER_01: We're figuring out this world and ourselves at the same exact time, growing as we listen to the stories of others.
• 45:39
  SPEAKER_01: Let's keep getting to know each other.
• 45:41
  SPEAKER_01: After all, we are in this together.
• 45:44
  SPEAKER_01: See you next time.