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Witch-Hunt: Lindsay Clancy Holdout Juror In Hiding · Crime Stories with Nancy Grace

• 0:00
  Speaker 1: Tonight, it's a witch hunt. That's right. The Lindsay Clancy
• 0:05
  Speaker 1: holdout juror has gone in hiding. This is not what
• 0:11
  Speaker 1: America is supposed to be about. When you don't vote
• 0:16
  Speaker 1: the way the defense attorney wants you to, you are harassed,
• 0:19
  Speaker 1: you are ridiculed, you are targeted and go in hiding.
• 0:24
  Speaker 1: As former husband Patrick Clancy speaks out about The heartbreak
• 0:31
  Speaker 1: he suffered following the murders of his three children, yet
• 0:36
  Speaker 1: even tonight, trolls are targeting him? You're never going to
• 0:42
  Speaker 1: believe this. Good evening. I'm Nancy Grace. This is Crime Stories.
• 0:46
  Speaker 1: I want to thank you for being with us. This
• 0:55
  Speaker 1: guy is battling back against internet trolls. How many times
• 1:00
  Speaker 1: do I have to scream it from the mountaintops? Patrick
• 1:03
  Speaker 1: Clancy is not the one that strangled his three children dead.
• 1:09
  Speaker 1: And believe you me, if I thought he was involved
• 1:12
  Speaker 1: in any way, I would be screaming it on the mountaintops.
• 1:17
  Speaker 2: I really thought there was a chance that Callan would live,
• 1:19
  Speaker 2: and I remember just thinking, just give me one. Just
• 1:22
  Speaker 2: give me one kid, and I would raise him as
• 1:25
  Speaker 2: best I could, and I would give him the best
• 1:27
  Speaker 2: life I possibly could. I tell him about his brother
• 1:30
  Speaker 2: and sister and I was holding out hope for that.
• 1:34
  Speaker 2: I remember early on having a dream, maybe six months
• 1:41
  Speaker 2: or a year after, and I'm in the kitchen at
• 1:44
  Speaker 2: the house and Cora walks in and I just look
• 1:48
  Speaker 2: at her and I, it was like, I basically just said,
• 1:51
  Speaker 2: where have you been? And she comes up to me
• 1:54
  Speaker 2: and gives me a big hug. Those dreams are so real.
• 2:02
  Speaker 2: It's like I'm lucid in those dreams.
• 2:04
  Speaker 1: The heartbreak that Patrick Clancy is suffering is frankly agonizing
• 2:12
  Speaker 1: to watch him. And yet tonight, trolls are still suggesting
• 2:19
  Speaker 1: that there's some conspiracy. I'll get right to that. That
• 2:23
  Speaker 1: is from our friends at CBS 60 Minutes. But what
• 2:26
  Speaker 1: I don't understand is how anyone can misconstrue what we
• 2:32
  Speaker 1: just saw. To Dr. Bethany Marshall, I don't understand why
• 2:38
  Speaker 1: this is still happening and why the holdout, Gerard, has
• 2:42
  Speaker 1: had to go into hiding in a rural area. You
• 2:46
  Speaker 1: watched Patrick Clancy. I have no doubt in my mind
• 2:51
  Speaker 1: he's telling the truth. Those emotions are real.
• 2:56
  Speaker 3: Nancy, he is telling the truth. There is no doubt
• 2:59
  Speaker 3: about that. I've watched that interview multiple times, and it
• 3:03
  Speaker 3: is consistent with truth telling. What the public may be
• 3:05
  Speaker 3: reacting to, however, is because of the impending civil trial,
• 3:10
  Speaker 3: it may have been hard for him to talk about
• 3:14
  Speaker 3: even more heartbreaking aspects, such as when Callan was in
• 3:17
  Speaker 3: that hospital bed, not just that he got to hold
• 3:20
  Speaker 3: his hand and lie beside him in the hospital bed,
• 3:23
  Speaker 3: but that little Callan was suffering. suffering. He had ligature
• 3:28
  Speaker 3: marks around his neck. He was struggling for life. And
• 3:32
  Speaker 3: I think people wanted to see Patrick Clancy talk more
• 3:37
  Speaker 3: about the actual trauma, the self-blame, the doubt. But Nancy,
• 3:42
  Speaker 3: he can't talk about that because of the upcoming civil trial.
• 3:45
  Speaker 3: So what happens is that people morph the idea that
• 3:49
  Speaker 3: something might be a little bit amiss into actual hatred
• 3:54
  Speaker 3: and hostility towards Clancy. towards Patrick Clancy, he lost his
• 4:00
  Speaker 3: three children. That holdout juror spoke the truth. We will
• 4:05
  Speaker 3: never know exactly what was in Lindsay Clancy's mind, but
• 4:09
  Speaker 3: this whole command hallucinations, which we'll get to, is a very,
• 4:13
  Speaker 3: very shaky idea. And the holdout juror was suspicious of that,
• 4:19
  Speaker 3: and he has every right to be.
• 4:22
  Speaker 1: You know, Josh Colesrood, you're about to hear one of
• 4:24
  Speaker 1: the zaniest conspiracy theories out there, but I've got a theory. Guys,
• 4:31
  Speaker 1: Josh Colesrood is a veteran criminal defense attorney, former U.S. attorney,
• 4:36
  Speaker 1: founder of Colesrood Law Offices, and co-star of No Contest podcast. Josh,
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  Speaker 1: I think part of this is an issue that I
• 4:46
  Speaker 1: found very common when prosecuting cases.
• 4:49
  Speaker 4: G.R.R.
• 4:50
  Speaker 1: 's I believe it's an unknown bias. They can't bring
• 4:54
  Speaker 1: themselves to accept that a mother could do a horrible
• 4:58
  Speaker 1: thing to their child with the full intention of doing it.
• 5:03
  Speaker 1: They'd rather believe she had to be crazy or her
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  Speaker 1: husband did it. He did it. It's easier than accepting
• 5:11
  Speaker 1: that a mother would do that to their child.
• 5:13
  Speaker 5: Well, that's certainly one viewpoint that a lot of people
• 5:19
  Speaker 5: subscribe to. Uh, but there's another viewpoint that 11 jurors
• 5:24
  Speaker 5: decided to believe, which is completely the opposite of what
• 5:28
  Speaker 5: you just said. And that is that the prosecution just
• 5:31
  Speaker 5: failed to show that Lindsay was sane enough when she
• 5:37
  Speaker 5: committed the crimes period. You know, the, the only indication
• 5:42
  Speaker 5: of jury nullification was the one juror hold out, uh,
• 5:47
  Speaker 5: which was reflected on the notes that were given to
• 5:51
  Speaker 5: the judge. So Nancy, you know, as we discussed previously,
• 5:55
  Speaker 5: Massachusetts has an incredibly difficult insanity law for prosecutors because
• 6:01
  Speaker 5: it switches the burden to prosecutors and that type of defense,
• 6:06
  Speaker 5: so to speak, is perfect for a hung jury. So
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  Speaker 5: these 11 jurors, they looked at the evidence, They looked
• 6:17
  Speaker 5: at and listened to the arguments by the attorneys, and
• 6:20
  Speaker 5: they decided, based on the evidence, that this was a
• 6:24
  Speaker 5: not guilty by reason of insanity.
• 6:27
  Speaker 1: Okay, you just totally dodged the question about a bias
• 6:30
  Speaker 1: of not wanting to convict a mom. You also stated
• 6:35
  Speaker 1: that the Gerards voted 11 to 1 because they accepted
• 6:40
  Speaker 1: that that Lindsey Clancy was NGBRI, not guilty by reason
• 6:44
  Speaker 1: of insanity. But instead of hearing your interpretation of why
• 6:49
  Speaker 1: they voted that way, why don't we hear it from
• 6:51
  Speaker 1: the horse's mouth?
• 6:52
  Speaker 6: Even though we didn't know what was going on outside
• 6:56
  Speaker 6: of our little bubble that we were in, we knew
• 7:00
  Speaker 6: that this was a turning point. And this would be
• 7:05
  Speaker 6: something that could change something to make it better for
• 7:10
  Speaker 6: other women in the future, for other families. You know,
• 7:14
  Speaker 6: justice for those children is this never happening again.
• 7:18
  Speaker 1: From our friends at CBS. So she is admitting that
• 7:23
  Speaker 1: the decision by the 11 who were against the one
• 7:28
  Speaker 1: holdout was to make things better for women in the future,
• 7:32
  Speaker 1: not women. deciding this case on its merits. That said,
• 7:39
  Speaker 1: even in the face of watching Patrick Clancy's pain and suffering,
• 7:46
  Speaker 1: trolls are continuing to attack him with bizarre conspiracy theories
• 7:50
  Speaker 1: such as this one. The court watcher states, just my opinion,
• 7:56
  Speaker 1: it appears she does hand him something. And what's up
• 8:00
  Speaker 1: with the hoodie? What are you hiding from? And gym clothes?
• 8:04
  Speaker 1: Gym across the street. Gym bag on the floor. I
• 8:08
  Speaker 1: see a pattern. Followed up with from hustle your bustle.
• 8:14
  Speaker 1: The footage from CBS has not been altered. He hands
• 8:18
  Speaker 1: something to the person walking toward him. Why? What was it? Okay,
• 8:23
  Speaker 1: let's take a slow-mo look at Patrick Clancy going through
• 8:27
  Speaker 1: the CBS. Okay, there is a person in a hoodie. Walking, walking.
• 8:34
  Speaker 1: Where is it? Okay, he's taking out a cell phone.
• 8:37
  Speaker 1: It looked as if he was looking at the cell phone.
• 8:42
  Speaker 1: I'm not quite sure how it's extrapolated that he hands
• 8:47
  Speaker 1: the cell phone or whatever he has in his hand
• 8:50
  Speaker 1: to Patrick Clancy. So, I don't get it. To Shannon
• 8:57
  Speaker 1: Hill joining us. She is the star of Shannon Hill
• 8:59
  Speaker 1: News on Insta. Shannon, I don't understand that conspiracy theory.
• 9:04
  Speaker 1: We even slowed down, slow mode, the CBS video to
• 9:08
  Speaker 1: try to figure out the genesis of this new theory.
• 9:13
  Speaker 1: It doesn't exist.
• 9:15
  Speaker 7: I don't see it either, Nancy. I do not see
• 9:18
  Speaker 7: Patrick handing anything off to the passerby. Again, I think
• 9:22
  Speaker 7: that these conspiracies really originated from the fact that The
• 9:26
  Speaker 7: public was seeing two sets of footage. They were seeing
• 9:28
  Speaker 7: this CBS footage and then they were seeing the 3V
• 9:31
  Speaker 7: footage where they felt that Patrick Clancy had changed his clothing.
• 9:36
  Speaker 7: But when it comes down to it, it was essentially
• 9:38
  Speaker 7: just different quality of footage, different lighting, different angle. And
• 9:42
  Speaker 7: if you really look closely, he's wearing the same shoes
• 9:45
  Speaker 7: and the same coat. and the same pants in both
• 9:48
  Speaker 7: sets of footage. I think if you stare at anything
• 9:51
  Speaker 7: long enough and you let the public stare at anything
• 9:53
  Speaker 7: long enough, they will come up with whatever story fits
• 9:57
  Speaker 7: their emotional feelings at that time.
• 9:59
  Speaker 1: With one juror literally in hiding, the attacks on Clancy
• 10:05
  Speaker 1: go on.
• 10:07
  Speaker 8: I personally have never known anyone that has lost a
• 10:09
  Speaker 8: child to speak of their children in the nature of
• 10:11
  Speaker 8: which Patrick speaks of them. I also don't know any
• 10:14
  Speaker 8: woman that would be like, oh, who are those cuties?
• 10:18
  Speaker 8: And the response is they're my kids, but they're dead.
• 10:20
  Speaker 8: I'm sorry.
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  Speaker 5: What?
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  Speaker 8: Babe, why didn't you run the first time? Like the
• 10:25
  Speaker 8: fact that he even just spit it out like that,
• 10:27
  Speaker 8: like that is not how someone that is grieving and
• 10:32
  Speaker 8: mourning children speaks. How quickly they talk about starting a
• 10:36
  Speaker 8: new family. Now, I don't want to say too, too
• 10:39
  Speaker 8: much about that because I can't imagine why that would
• 10:42
  Speaker 8: be Rachel's fault for wanting children. And even though I
• 10:46
  Speaker 8: really don't like her demeanor or anything about her, she
• 10:50
  Speaker 8: just comes off bizarre to me. I don't think that
• 10:53
  Speaker 8: her wanting children with a husband is odd. I do, however,
• 10:58
  Speaker 8: think that it's weird that she was quick to marry
• 11:00
  Speaker 8: a man whose entire family was just annihilated and she
• 11:04
  Speaker 8: feels like he's mentally stable or in a place where
• 11:07
  Speaker 8: she should just lay down and start having babies.
• 11:09
  Speaker 1: From Chanel Torchia on TikTok, She says, I don't want
• 11:14
  Speaker 1: to say too much about that, but then proceeds to
• 11:16
  Speaker 1: say a lot about that. I, you know, to Dave Mack,
• 11:21
  Speaker 1: you and I have been studying all of these conspiracy
• 11:24
  Speaker 1: theorists very carefully. Where does she get a leg to
• 11:29
  Speaker 1: stand on to talk about it being too soon for
• 11:32
  Speaker 1: him to start a family? Let's refresh everyone's recollection. When
• 11:37
  Speaker 1: were the three children murdered, Dave Mack? What year was that?
• 11:41
  Speaker 4: 2023.
• 11:43
  Speaker 9: Three years ago, Nancy.
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  Speaker 1: What is happening, Dr. Bethany? This woman, Chanel Torshia on TikTok,
• 11:52
  Speaker 1: has never met them, knows nothing about them, and quote, says,
• 11:57
  Speaker 1: I don't like her demeanor or anything about her. I
• 12:01
  Speaker 1: believe that the new wife, Dr. Rachel, is probably one
• 12:04
  Speaker 1: of the only things keeping Patrick Clancy sane right now.
• 12:09
  Speaker 7: I agree, Nancy.
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  Speaker 3: Patrick Clancy certainly has a right to to build a life,
• 12:13
  Speaker 3: have a life. His three children were taken cruelly from him.
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  Speaker 3: And it would make sense that he would want to
• 12:20
  Speaker 3: have another family. It makes sense that he would want
• 12:23
  Speaker 3: a wife who is a physician, a fertility doctor, somebody
• 12:28
  Speaker 3: who really knows about postpartum issues in a way. I
• 12:35
  Speaker 3: think that's kind of fascinating. But this TikToker is like
• 12:39
  Speaker 3: the nosy neighbor of vicious self-important, thinks that whatever she
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  Speaker 3: has to say should have some bearing on Patrick Clancy
• 12:50
  Speaker 3: and his life. I mean, really, who is she? Why
• 12:54
  Speaker 3: is she elevating her own opinion? And why is she
• 12:59
  Speaker 3: using it as a bully pulpit to try to ruin
• 13:03
  Speaker 3: another person's life? Because Nancy, that's really what she's trying
• 13:06
  Speaker 3: to do.
• 13:07
  Speaker 1: Joseph Scott Morgan joining us tonight, Professor of Forensics, Jacksonville
• 13:11
  Speaker 1: State University, and the star of Body Bags with Joe
• 13:15
  Speaker 1: Scott Morgan on YouTube. But more important, death investigator with
• 13:20
  Speaker 1: over 10,000 death scenes under his belt. Have you ever
• 13:24
  Speaker 1: noticed the looky-loos, the people that leech onto a case
• 13:29
  Speaker 1: that have nothing to do with it and then suddenly
• 13:31
  Speaker 1: become an expert in their own mind? and drop bombshells
• 13:36
  Speaker 1: like the ones we just heard?
• 13:38
  Speaker 4: Yeah, I don't know if I'd call it a bombshell.
• 13:41
  Speaker 4: It's something more akin to excrement as far as I'm concerned.
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  Speaker 4: And here's the thing about it. I wish just for
• 13:49
  Speaker 4: a minute or two, I could take some of these
• 13:50
  Speaker 4: people into the world that I have inhabited for all
• 13:54
  Speaker 4: of these years and see the things I've seen in
• 13:56
  Speaker 4: the morgue over the years and see the things I've
• 13:58
  Speaker 4: seen at the scene. And it would give them pause.
• 14:01
  Speaker 4: It's real easy to sit in your car and make
• 14:05
  Speaker 4: these very broad statements about an individual in their life,
• 14:09
  Speaker 4: they have no idea what this man has been through,
• 14:11
  Speaker 4: none whatsoever. And the fact that he, he's the one
• 14:17
  Speaker 4: that had to go and make the arrangements for these children,
• 14:20
  Speaker 4: he's the one that was at the grave site, you know,
• 14:23
  Speaker 4: all of these, all of these things, and yet they
• 14:27
  Speaker 4: sit there very arrogantly and they presume to condemn this man.
• 14:33
  Speaker 4: based upon his actions in the aftermath. I don't know.
• 14:37
  Speaker 4: It's pretty damn pathetic, Nancy. And it goes to another level.
• 14:41
  Speaker 4: It goes to the level of the fact that there
• 14:44
  Speaker 4: is a lack of sensitivity relative to individuals out there
• 14:48
  Speaker 4: that are grieving and relative to the victims as well.
• 14:51
  Speaker 4: I'm an advocate for the dead. That's what I do.
• 14:54
  Speaker 4: And we're going to keep their memories alive by talking
• 14:57
  Speaker 4: about this, Nancy. And these people have forgotten what these
• 14:59
  Speaker 4: children specifically went through.
• 15:01
  Speaker 1: You know, you just mentioned the harsh reality of what
• 15:05
  Speaker 1: you and I do, not just for a living, but
• 15:08
  Speaker 1: as a calling. You know who else was off-put by
• 15:12
  Speaker 1: the harsh reality? One of the jurors.
• 15:15
  Speaker 10: He took the exercise band out of the bag, grabbed
• 15:20
  Speaker 10: an empty water bottle, and tied the band around the
• 15:25
  Speaker 10: water bottle and pulled it. We're not in here to
• 15:28
  Speaker 10: play detective, or it's not a game of Clue, like
• 15:31
  Speaker 10: this is Serious.
• 15:32
  Speaker 11: It's disgusting.
• 15:34
  Speaker 1: That is the Clancy Girard speaking to ABC. I mean,
• 15:39
  Speaker 1: Joe Scott, the snowflake Girard that spoke out probably should
• 15:43
  Speaker 1: have just kept his pie hole shut. If he can't
• 15:46
  Speaker 1: confront the demonstration the holdout did on a water bottle,
• 15:51
  Speaker 1: how could he confront that being done to an infant
• 15:55
  Speaker 1: just a few months old? You know, Joe Scott, this is...
• 15:59
  Speaker 1: very powerful imagery, but imagery is really the wrong word.
• 16:04
  Speaker 1: The truth is that when you perform a ligature strangulation,
• 16:11
  Speaker 1: specifically with something that is pliable or stretchy, such as
• 16:16
  Speaker 1: an exercise band, you must exert much force to complete
• 16:23
  Speaker 1: the strangulation. And when that is done on a human neck,
• 16:28
  Speaker 1: the neck ends up looking like the neck on a
• 16:31
  Speaker 1: shrunken head. It's no longer the same size as the
• 16:35
  Speaker 1: one that holds your head up. It's strangled down to
• 16:39
  Speaker 1: something about that big. The first time I saw that
• 16:43
  Speaker 1: in a photo, in an autopsy photo, I didn't even
• 16:47
  Speaker 1: understand what I was looking at. I still remember it.
• 16:50
  Speaker 1: I didn't understand. I thought, what is wrong? Is that
• 16:53
  Speaker 1: the neck? Then I realized what had happened. I didn't
• 16:58
  Speaker 1: need a death investigator like you to explain to me,
• 17:02
  Speaker 1: but maybe you should explain it. This juror's upset because
• 17:05
  Speaker 1: he saw a demo on a water bottle. Save it.
• 17:08
  Speaker 4: Yeah, the reality is this, is that when this ligature
• 17:11
  Speaker 4: is tightened, and remember, the two oldest children here, Nancy,
• 17:16
  Speaker 4: they specifically talk about these abraded areas along the neck.
• 17:21
  Speaker 4: I'm saying abraded. It's an abrasion that's created by the ligature.
• 17:24
  Speaker 4: So think about skinning your knee, that sort of thing.
• 17:28
  Speaker 4: They're running parallel to the shoulders at this point in time.
• 17:32
  Speaker 4: This is not a vertical thing where you have a hanging.
• 17:35
  Speaker 4: This means that force would have been applied potentially from
• 17:38
  Speaker 4: the rear as these children are being choked out, according
• 17:43
  Speaker 4: to her, by her own hand, right? And so it's
• 17:47
  Speaker 4: creating this bottleneck, as you refer to it. That's a
• 17:50
  Speaker 4: good term. I'm going to use that from now on.
• 17:51
  Speaker 4: And then on top of that, all of the blood,
• 17:55
  Speaker 4: that is trapped in the head is beginning to make
• 17:58
  Speaker 4: the head swell. That's why many times when you see
• 18:01
  Speaker 4: people that have suffered from ligature strangulation, they will have
• 18:05
  Speaker 4: a very lavacious appearance to them. They'll be purple. The
• 18:09
  Speaker 4: eyes will be bulged. You'll see this demonstrated, particularly we
• 18:12
  Speaker 4: talk about the tension within the little vessels that blow
• 18:15
  Speaker 4: out and explode. Those are called petechiae. We've talked about
• 18:19
  Speaker 4: that for years and years, haven't we, Nancy? And so
• 18:21
  Speaker 4: that goes to the pressure, that indwelling pressure that's going
• 18:25
  Speaker 4: on as this force is being applied here. And yeah,
• 18:28
  Speaker 4: I mean, it's horrible stuff. We're not sitting here, you know,
• 18:33
  Speaker 4: talking about, well, you know, gee whiz, let's try to
• 18:36
  Speaker 4: make this the best world we can for all women
• 18:39
  Speaker 4: in the future. What about these three kids that no
• 18:43
  Speaker 4: longer have a future because they're dead at this point
• 18:47
  Speaker 4: in time, Nancy?
• 18:48
  Speaker 1: Joe Scott, let me be even more honest. concise in
• 18:52
  Speaker 1: my questioning. What would be the circumference of baby Callan's
• 18:59
  Speaker 1: neck or Cora's neck or Dawson's neck post ligature strangulation?
• 19:08
  Speaker 4: Yeah, it would be the circumferential distance that you talk
• 19:13
  Speaker 4: about that that area around the neck will be reduced
• 19:16
  Speaker 4: from what it normally is. You see that little angel
• 19:19
  Speaker 4: right there before you. That little child has probably got five, maybe,
• 19:24
  Speaker 4: maybe a six inch circumference around their neck. And you
• 19:30
  Speaker 4: can reduce that up to an inch by that point
• 19:32
  Speaker 4: in time, because you're having to apply the force. And Nancy,
• 19:35
  Speaker 4: this is not something, again, I go back to what
• 19:38
  Speaker 4: I've said before about the methodology that was employed here.
• 19:41
  Speaker 4: This is not like she used some type of static agent,
• 19:45
  Speaker 4: you know, like a firm cord piece of rope or
• 19:48
  Speaker 4: a piece of wire. She actually, actually utilized these elastic bands,
• 19:52
  Speaker 4: which required continued tension, readjustment, all these sorts of things
• 19:57
  Speaker 4: that were going on over and over and over again.
• 19:59
  Speaker 4: So it would have required double the force in order
• 20:02
  Speaker 4: to facilitate this. That's what's going to create a deep
• 20:05
  Speaker 4: groove in the neck, Nancy.
• 20:10
  Speaker 1: Typical neck is 8.5 to 11 inches. After a ligature strangulation,
• 20:16
  Speaker 1: that circumference can be reduced by 3 to 4 inches
• 20:21
  Speaker 1: based on the power and ferocity needed to complete the strangulation.
• 20:28
  Speaker 1: It's a horrible thing to see. Once you see the
• 20:34
  Speaker 1: neck of the victim, and yet even with his plain suffering,
• 20:39
  Speaker 1: The attacks go on.
• 20:41
  Speaker 11: I do think what is interesting is this overt story of,
• 20:45
  Speaker 11: he's an amazing father. Wait, didn't he meet after the
• 20:48
  Speaker 11: children were dead? No, they knew each other for years before.
• 20:52
  Speaker 11: Which brings up the question, she met the kids? She
• 20:56
  Speaker 11: obviously met the kids? How do you know someone's an
• 20:58
  Speaker 11: amazing father unless you see them out in their own terrain?
• 21:01
  Speaker 11: And as you know, there are over 15 cases of
• 21:04
  Speaker 11: people taking drugs the seat in 60 minutes to prove
• 21:08
  Speaker 11: their innocence. And over 80% of them have been convicted.
• 21:11
  Speaker 11: Status and power is everything to him. And even the
• 21:14
  Speaker 11: fact that his new wife is a doctor is like
• 21:18
  Speaker 11: everything to him. This is mental capacity and coupled with
• 21:22
  Speaker 11: his like eyebrows. They're not like John Howard eyebrows, but
• 21:25
  Speaker 11: kind of like they go everywhere, but mainly down. This
• 21:28
  Speaker 11: is a guy who just lives in his head. There's
• 21:29
  Speaker 11: no emotion here.
• 21:31
  Speaker 1: I've really got to stop playing that because it's starting
• 21:34
  Speaker 1: to mess with my mind. That is from Julia George
• 21:39
  Speaker 1: on Insta. Bethany, I actually need a shrink. What is
• 21:45
  Speaker 1: she talking about? She's saying that they go on, they quote,
• 21:51
  Speaker 1: take the seat in 60 minutes to prove their innocence.
• 21:54
  Speaker 1: That's because the public was clamoring, practically hunting them down
• 21:59
  Speaker 1: on the street for them to speak. And so they
• 22:02
  Speaker 1: speak and now Everyone hates him for speaking. It's just
• 22:06
  Speaker 1: they can't win.
• 22:09
  Speaker 3: Just like the 11 jurors hated the holdout juror, just
• 22:13
  Speaker 3: like Reddington is unleashing the public on the juror who
• 22:18
  Speaker 3: did his civic duty. Nancy, let me remind you of
• 22:21
  Speaker 3: what Lindsay Clancy did. She strangled her three kids. She
• 22:27
  Speaker 3: had ostensibly command hallucinations, which are very rare. When people
• 22:32
  Speaker 3: have those kinds of hallucinations, They try to fight the
• 22:37
  Speaker 3: command hallucinations. That's why when you see somebody walking down
• 22:41
  Speaker 3: the street with schizophrenia, you see them hitting at the air,
• 22:44
  Speaker 3: striking at imaginary things. They're trying to fend off those hallucinations.
• 22:51
  Speaker 3: And yet, Lindsay Clancy has no history of command hallucinations.
• 22:56
  Speaker 3: She has them for the 18 minutes it took. to
• 23:00
  Speaker 3: kill her children and then inflict superficial wounds and jump
• 23:04
  Speaker 3: out a window. And oops, she never had them again
• 23:07
  Speaker 3: after that. That does not fit any clinical pattern that
• 23:13
  Speaker 3: I know. And one more thing, Nancy, I find it
• 23:15
  Speaker 3: fascinating that Reddington finds out Lindsay Clancy is in the hospital.
• 23:20
  Speaker 3: It takes Dysel 11 days to get the necessary legal
• 23:24
  Speaker 3: paperwork in order to see Lindsay Clancy. I call that
• 23:28
  Speaker 3: ambulance chasing personally on a whole new level. The first
• 23:32
  Speaker 3: thing Lindsay Clancy says is, can I have your phone
• 23:37
  Speaker 3: to talk to my husband? And then she says, I
• 23:40
  Speaker 3: heard a male voice. He made me do it. Something
• 23:44
  Speaker 3: to the effect of I couldn't fight back. People don't
• 23:49
  Speaker 3: talk about their own command hallucinations that way. And somebody
• 23:53
  Speaker 3: who is really remorseful or is coming out of a
• 23:57
  Speaker 3: psychosis will say, oh my God, where are the kids?
• 24:01
  Speaker 3: I can't believe I did that. I'm just in shock.
• 24:06
  Speaker 3: Did any of them survive?
• 24:08
  Speaker 8: No.
• 24:09
  Speaker 3: The first thing she did was she asked her husband,
• 24:11
  Speaker 3: are we okay? Let's put the blame on the right person, Nancy,
• 24:18
  Speaker 3: instead of all these internet trolls who are in the
• 24:21
  Speaker 3: social media media algorithm feedback loop that reinforces all their
• 24:27
  Speaker 3: conspiracy theories. Why don't we look to the person who
• 24:31
  Speaker 3: really did this and hold her accountable?
• 24:33
  Speaker 1: We could go all night with the conspiracy theories leveled
• 24:37
  Speaker 1: against Patrick Clancy. But is there any evidence, Shannon Hill,
• 24:41
  Speaker 1: that Clancy met Dr. Rachel during his marriage or that
• 24:46
  Speaker 1: they had an affair? during his marriage? Because I haven't
• 24:50
  Speaker 1: heard one shred of evidence to support that.
• 24:54
  Speaker 7: Nancy, there's no real evidence that they have met while
• 24:58
  Speaker 7: Patrick was married to Lindsay. There is a lot of
• 25:01
  Speaker 7: AI footage that you will find online of people copying
• 25:04
  Speaker 7: and pasting their faces and making it seem and appear
• 25:07
  Speaker 7: that they had some entanglement going on while Patrick was
• 25:10
  Speaker 7: still married to Lindsay. The truth of the matter is
• 25:13
  Speaker 7: there's no actual proof of that. And here's the thing.
• 25:16
  Speaker 7: Here's a man who lost everything. He lost his children,
• 25:19
  Speaker 7: his wife who he thought he knew and loved. He
• 25:23
  Speaker 7: lost everything. So what does a person in that situation
• 25:26
  Speaker 7: do outside of starting something new? He had to start
• 25:30
  Speaker 7: something new. People will continue to blame him for moving
• 25:33
  Speaker 7: on with his life. But at the end of the day,
• 25:34
  Speaker 7: this man lost everything that he loved and had.
• 25:42
  Speaker 1: Aside from all the attacks on Patrick Clancy tonight, a
• 25:45
  Speaker 1: very real battle is brewing in court. And that is
• 25:49
  Speaker 1: defense attorney Kevin Reddington calling for the holdout juror to
• 25:53
  Speaker 1: be thoroughly investigated, including seizing his phone and doing a
• 26:00
  Speaker 1: digital exploration of what is on his phone. Well, let
• 26:07
  Speaker 1: me remind everybody that apparently other jurors were on social
• 26:12
  Speaker 1: media during the trial.
• 26:15
  Speaker 12: Lindsay Clancy juror was spotted on social media and now
• 26:18
  Speaker 12: is starting to stir some controversy. Reason it's stirring controversy
• 26:22
  Speaker 12: is because people keep saying she's not supposed to be
• 26:24
  Speaker 12: on social media. There were things about, you know, thanking people,
• 26:27
  Speaker 12: I believe in August 15th for all the birthday wishes.
• 26:29
  Speaker 12: Another one where she was apparently sitting on a chair,
• 26:32
  Speaker 12: maybe with a drink saying I needed this tonight or
• 26:34
  Speaker 12: something along those lines. But she doesn't specifically reference the trial.
• 26:38
  Speaker 12: People think because she was on social media that she's
• 26:40
  Speaker 12: going to be subjecting herself to the information.
• 26:42
  Speaker 1: And maybe that's true.
• 26:43
  Speaker 12: But technically, she did not violate anything that the judge
• 26:47
  Speaker 12: ordered because he never said stay off social media. He said,
• 26:50
  Speaker 12: do not do any independent research. Do not talk about
• 26:52
  Speaker 12: this case. Do not engage in a conversation about this case.
• 26:55
  Speaker 4: Nothing at all.
• 26:57
  Speaker 12: Has nothing to do with staying off social media.
• 26:59
  Speaker 1: That's a really good point. That's from Laughing Grind TikTok.
• 27:01
  Speaker 1: So Hold on a moment before we demand investigations of
• 27:05
  Speaker 1: the holdout juror's cell phone. Maybe we should just investigate
• 27:09
  Speaker 1: all the juror's phones, all of their social media. This
• 27:13
  Speaker 1: is getting way out of hand. And correct me if
• 27:16
  Speaker 1: I'm wrong, Josh Colesrew joining us out of Phoenix, Arizona.
• 27:20
  Speaker 1: He's a veteran trial lawyer. He's struck a lot of juries.
• 27:24
  Speaker 1: Even if, even if, Josh, Kevin Reddington finds out that
• 27:31
  Speaker 1: the juror texted about the trial during the trial. What
• 27:37
  Speaker 1: the remedy is for that is a mistrial. We've already
• 27:42
  Speaker 1: got a mistrial, which means that the demand for an
• 27:47
  Speaker 1: investigation on the holdout juror is just simply harassment. They've
• 27:50
  Speaker 1: already got a mistrial. What more can they gain?
• 27:57
  Speaker 5: Well, it's an interesting legal question. So Kevin Reddington filed
• 28:00
  Speaker 5: a motion this week asking the judge to find that Ms.
• 28:07
  Speaker 5: Clancy is guilty by reason of insanity because the one
• 28:12
  Speaker 5: juror did not follow the law by jury nullification. So
• 28:18
  Speaker 5: there's actually a legal concept here. And the only question
• 28:22
  Speaker 5: that the lawyers have presented so far is that one juror,
• 28:26
  Speaker 5: just one juror could be guilty of jury nullification. And
• 28:31
  Speaker 5: that's the one juror holdout. So Kevin Reddington asking the
• 28:34
  Speaker 5: court to look at his notes, to see exactly what
• 28:38
  Speaker 5: the judge knew at the time when he did not
• 28:40
  Speaker 5: declare a dismissal, so to speak, when the defense objected
• 28:45
  Speaker 5: to the mistrial. This is what this is about. This
• 28:48
  Speaker 5: is not about investigating a juror for the sake of it.
• 28:50
  Speaker 5: This is about investigating a juror to ask the court.
• 28:54
  Speaker 1: I believe my question, Josh, is what the remedy is,
• 28:59
  Speaker 1: even if Reddington got what he asked for.
• 29:02
  Speaker 5: It's dismissal.
• 29:04
  Speaker 1: If there's juror misconduct, for there to be a dismissal,
• 29:08
  Speaker 1: the law is for there to be an outright dismissal
• 29:12
  Speaker 1: of all charges never to be retried. That has to
• 29:15
  Speaker 1: be the fault of the state. And it has to
• 29:18
  Speaker 1: be an error so bad that it is with prejudices.
• 29:21
  Speaker 1: That is a standard for a case to be summarily dismissed.
• 29:26
  Speaker 1: If there's misconduct, you get a mistrial.
• 29:30
  Speaker 5: Not in this case. So Massachusetts allows a dismissal if
• 29:36
  Speaker 5: the judge failed to ask questions. to a specific juror
• 29:41
  Speaker 5: when the judge knew or should have known that the
• 29:44
  Speaker 5: juror was not following the law, which this judge may.
• 29:47
  Speaker 1: Have not known. Okay, hold on just one moment. Let's
• 29:49
  Speaker 1: just deal with reality, not the Josh Colesrud version. Shannon Hill,
• 29:56
  Speaker 1: you were in the courtroom. Isn't it true the judge
• 29:59
  Speaker 1: questioned all of the jurors, including the holdout, about whether
• 30:03
  Speaker 1: he could follow the standard of reasonable doubt. That was
• 30:06
  Speaker 1: the complaint from the other jurors, right? And he did
• 30:09
  Speaker 1: question the jurors, just as Josh Colesrud is saying, if
• 30:12
  Speaker 1: he didn't question them, then that's cause for dismissal. But
• 30:15
  Speaker 1: he did question them, so we've just wasted two minutes
• 30:17
  Speaker 1: of airtime.
• 30:19
  Speaker 7: Judge William Sullivan gave the jurors instructions every single day
• 30:23
  Speaker 7: when court started, and he did ask them questions every
• 30:25
  Speaker 7: single day. He followed the rules per Massachusetts law, And
• 30:30
  Speaker 7: as far as we know, this juror, this holdout juror,
• 30:34
  Speaker 7: who was the one that decided that Lindsey Clancy was guilty,
• 30:38
  Speaker 7: has said that he did not have reasonable doubt. Even
• 30:42
  Speaker 7: though the other jurors have said that he expressed reasonable doubt,
• 30:45
  Speaker 7: we don't know how he may have applied that reasonable doubt.
• 30:49
  Speaker 7: Was it just doubt or was it reasonable doubt? And
• 30:52
  Speaker 7: that's something that Possibly they can look at the juror's notes,
• 30:56
  Speaker 7: which is a motion that Reddington has filed for, to
• 30:59
  Speaker 7: ask for the juror's notes.
• 31:00
  Speaker 1: Dave Mack, following up on what Shannon has just told us,
• 31:04
  Speaker 1: do you recall that the judge questioned all the jurors,
• 31:08
  Speaker 1: including the holdout, about whether they understood the standard of
• 31:12
  Speaker 1: reasonable doubt and whether they could follow the law, not
• 31:14
  Speaker 1: once but twice. And he did so in individual voir dire.
• 31:19
  Speaker 1: He asked each juror, individually, if they could follow the
• 31:24
  Speaker 1: reasonable doubt standard. And this juror said, yeah, I can
• 31:27
  Speaker 1: follow it.
• 31:28
  Speaker 9: It was very specific, Nancy, because the judge didn't want
• 31:32
  Speaker 9: this to happen, you know, what we're seeing right now.
• 31:34
  Speaker 9: So he was very specific in dealing with the jury,
• 31:37
  Speaker 9: with each juror to make sure that they understood what
• 31:41
  Speaker 9: was going on. Now, remember, this jury was not, they
• 31:44
  Speaker 9: were not sequestered.
• 31:45
  Speaker 1: All right.
• 31:45
  Speaker 9: So the jury had a lot that they had to
• 31:48
  Speaker 9: control in their own world. And the fact that the
• 31:51
  Speaker 9: judge took the time to go over this one by
• 31:54
  Speaker 9: one shows you that the jury knew, each juror knew,
• 31:58
  Speaker 9: and the judge was satisfied with those answers.
• 32:01
  Speaker 1: After putting a target on the back of the holdout juror,
• 32:07
  Speaker 1: that juror has gone into hiding in a rural area
• 32:12
  Speaker 1: in the Northeast. What does that say about this process?
• 32:17
  Speaker 1: that he is so afraid of attack and harassment because
• 32:22
  Speaker 1: he didn't vote the way Lindsay Clancy's lawyer wanted him
• 32:26
  Speaker 1: to vote, he has to go in hiding. Just a
• 32:30
  Speaker 1: quick reminder, our country is governed by the rule of law,
• 32:37
  Speaker 1: not the rule of man, not the rule of an
• 32:42
  Speaker 1: angry mob surrounding the courthouse, even if they are wearing
• 32:46
  Speaker 1: pink t-shirts. That's not how it works. Tonight, that juror
• 32:52
  Speaker 1: under attack. If you know or think you know anything
• 32:57
  Speaker 1: regarding this case, the state is building the case from
• 33:02
  Speaker 1: the bottom up. Dial 7819345656. Repeat, 7819345656. 5-6-5-6. We remember
• 33:22
  Speaker 1: an American hero police officer, Matthew Scott Baxter, Kissimmee PD, Florida,
• 33:28
  Speaker 1: just 27, shot and killed in the line of duty,
• 33:32
  Speaker 1: leaving behind his wife-turned-widow, Sadia, and daughters, Soraya, Isabella, Zara,
• 33:41
  Speaker 1: and Sophia. American hero police officer, Matthew Scott Baxter. Thank
• 33:48
  Speaker 1: you to our guests, but especially to you for being
• 33:50
  Speaker 1: with us. Nancy Gray signing off for tonight, but I'll
• 33:52
  Speaker 1: see you tomorrow night. And until then, good night, friend.