Latest / Fulfilled with Rebecca Sheehan / Ep. 2 - From Seminary to Skeptic: A Pastor's Unexpected Journey

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Ep. 2 - From Seminary to Skeptic: A Pastor's Unexpected Journey · Fulfilled with Rebecca Sheehan

• 0:09
  SPEAKER_00: Hey guys,
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  SPEAKER_00: welcome to Fulfilled,
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  where we explore the life-changing truth of God's mission to
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  bring us closer to Him.
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  SPEAKER_00: I'm your host, Rebecca Sheehan.
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  A church should be the place we turn to to find solace in the
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  steadfastness of
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  SPEAKER_00: God's word and truth.
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  SPEAKER_00: But lately,
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  it seems like our churches have gone from a refuge to a
• 0:32
  battleground for whatever
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  controversial social issue is preoccupying the American people
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  at the moment.
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  SPEAKER_00: Joining me to discuss this today,
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  SPEAKER_00: including the impact of these dangerous divisions,
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  is someone who found himself caught in the crosshairs of the
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  gospel and social
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  SPEAKER_00: justice at his seminary of all places.
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  SPEAKER_00: Pastor Will Duvall, thank you so much for joining us today.
• 0:55
  SPEAKER_01: Thanks so much for inviting me, Rebecca.
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  SPEAKER_01: It's an honor to be with you.
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  SPEAKER_00: Will serves as lead pastor of West Hills Church in St.
• 1:02
  SPEAKER_00: Louis and also leads his regional chapter of the Gospel Coalition.
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  SPEAKER_01: That's right.
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  And he wrote a great opinion piece on the Gospel Coalition's
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  website about his
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  SPEAKER_00: seminary experience.
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  SPEAKER_00: And as soon as I read it, I thought this would be a great podcast topic.
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  SPEAKER_01: Thank you for reading and thanks for inviting me to the podcast.
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  SPEAKER_01: And,
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  SPEAKER_01: you know,
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  SPEAKER_01: if God can use my story in some redemptive way to help someone else,
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  whether that's to help warn them to avoid some of the pitfalls
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  that I fell into,
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  or even just to motivate them to be all the more passionate
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  about ministry to those
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  who have been caught up in some of these trends that we're
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  going to talk about in
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  SPEAKER_01: the church world,
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  SPEAKER_01: then may God have the glory from that.
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  SPEAKER_00: Absolutely.
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  So if we can just start by talking about how you ended up at
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  this particular seminary.
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  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
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  So I have a really weird story and I love the Bible because I
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  think it's full of
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  SPEAKER_01: really weird stories of God calling people and using them in unexpected,
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  SPEAKER_01: unpredictable ways.
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  Whether it's Jonah,
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  you know,
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  just like kicking and screaming,
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  being drugged to Nineveh.
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  And so I think calling is not always obviously this straight line,
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  you know.
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  SPEAKER_01: So long story short, I got a full ride to graduate school.
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  SPEAKER_01: And so,
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  SPEAKER_01: you know,
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  SPEAKER_01: for me,
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  SPEAKER_01: I thought,
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  SPEAKER_01: okay,
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  SPEAKER_01: this is like six figures that I'm saving in taking out loans.
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  SPEAKER_01: God just...
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  opened that door and closed every other door and said,
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  this is where I want you.
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  You talked in your article about the things you saw at your
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  seminary when you first
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  SPEAKER_00: started there,
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  SPEAKER_00: some signs for clubs that surprised you.
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  SPEAKER_00: Could you talk about that a little bit?
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  SPEAKER_01: Sure.
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  SPEAKER_01: I hope it's okay.
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  I didn't share the name of my Divinity School in the Gospel
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  Coalition piece,
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  but
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  SPEAKER_01: I feel like we're going to be talking around this.
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  SPEAKER_01: I'll just name it.
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  SPEAKER_01: I went to Vanderbilt Divinity School in Nashville.
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  SPEAKER_01: When we came out for preview day, my mom came with me.
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  SPEAKER_01: First thing,
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  SPEAKER_01: walking into Divinity School,
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  you see these flyers hung up on the student activities board
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  for literally for the
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  SPEAKER_01: Wiccan Club and the LGBTQ plus student alliance.
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  SPEAKER_01: And I remember, you know,
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  SPEAKER_01: this feeling in the pit of my stomach.
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  And my mom,
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  you know,
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  literally stopped in her tracks and she's like,
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  are we in the right place?
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  SPEAKER_01: You know,
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  SPEAKER_01: I'd looked around their website and stuff enough to know like,
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  SPEAKER_01: okay,
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  SPEAKER_01: the mission statement of the school is very generic.
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  SPEAKER_01: So I somewhat knew what I was getting myself into,
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  SPEAKER_01: but even the students at the orientation talking to some of them,
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  SPEAKER_01: it became clear,
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  SPEAKER_01: like,
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  SPEAKER_01: this is a very,
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  SPEAKER_01: very different community than any that I've ever been a part of.
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  SPEAKER_00: How do you justify a Wiccan club or...
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  SPEAKER_00: An atheist society at a seminary.
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  So Vanderbilt,
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  there's no connection with any denomination,
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  even a very progressive one.
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  And so any of that grounding in a statement of faith or a
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  historic confession of orthodoxy,
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  SPEAKER_01: they severed that.
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  SPEAKER_01: It's that...
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  snowball effect of the denominations start to get progressive
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  and start to loosen
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  SPEAKER_01: their ties to the Bible.
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  SPEAKER_01: And over time, this is what you get.
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  SPEAKER_01: It seeps in and then it becomes self-perpetuating.
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  SPEAKER_01: You teach the Bible not as a book of faith that we all are committed to,
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  SPEAKER_01: but as a very important book that,
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  SPEAKER_01: I mean,
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  SPEAKER_01: bestseller of all time.
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  SPEAKER_01: And so we got to study it.
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  SPEAKER_01: Well,
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  let's just pick it apart and study the historicity of it and
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  the contradictions of
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  SPEAKER_01: it and how can we reinterpret it
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  SPEAKER_01: in our own ways, for our own purposes these days.
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  SPEAKER_01: I think,
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  SPEAKER_01: frankly,
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  a lot of the people still in the administration and faculty at
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  Vanderbilt would be like,
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  SPEAKER_01: yeah,
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  SPEAKER_01: that's pretty much what we're doing.
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  Do you feel that the way that Vanderbilt's Divinity School is
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  heading or has headed
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  already is symptomatic of a larger issue that is facing the
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  church in America of
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  SPEAKER_00: these social issues creating such a deep divide?
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  SPEAKER_01: It's symptomatic,
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  but it really starts in a lot of ways in academia because
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  that's where these people
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  that are going and writing at the New York Times and the movers
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  and shakers and
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  SPEAKER_01: thinkers and politicians,
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  they're getting their training and their education at these
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  kinds of places.
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  SPEAKER_01: So it's not just symptomatic downstream.
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  SPEAKER_01: It is also...
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  I think the formative agent of a lot of the social change as
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  well in a lot of ways.
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  SPEAKER_01: We're reading a book right now as a staff called The Great Dechurching.
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  It's about 40 million self-identifying Christians have left the
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  church in the last
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  SPEAKER_01: 20 years in our country.
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  SPEAKER_01: It's the biggest sociological change in the history of our country.
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  And so the whole book is why are they leaving and how do we get
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  them back?
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  But where you really see the biggest change is within that
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  mainline church,
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  SPEAKER_01: which is just hemorrhaging
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  SPEAKER_01: attendance and has been for many years.
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  SPEAKER_01: And to me,
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  SPEAKER_01: having lived in that world,
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  SPEAKER_01: as I did for certainly those years of Divinity School,
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  SPEAKER_01: it's no surprise why.
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  SPEAKER_01: Because
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  SPEAKER_01: When you start taking your exacto knife to the Bible and you say,
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  SPEAKER_01: yeah,
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  this part about wives being submissive to their husbands or
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  whatever it is that we
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  SPEAKER_01: take issue with,
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  SPEAKER_01: when we stand in judgment and authority over God's word and say,
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  SPEAKER_01: we'll take the parts we like,
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  SPEAKER_01: we'll leave the rest.
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  It's just not very long before you're left with either not very
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  much of a Bible at all,
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  SPEAKER_01: or at that point,
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  SPEAKER_01: just write your own Bible.
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  SPEAKER_00: That's a really interesting perspective.
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  SPEAKER_00: Sort of on the flip side though,
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  I think a lot of these churches who take on more of the social
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  justice issues would
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  say we're losing people because churches are being too
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  traditionalist and we're
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  SPEAKER_00: alienating people.
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  SPEAKER_00: Do you think that those churches being affirming,
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  SPEAKER_00: accepting,
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  is that better than no church at all to reach some of these
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  people who have life or
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  SPEAKER_00: are considering leaving?
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  SPEAKER_01: It breaks God's heart when people choose their sexual freedom over him,
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  SPEAKER_01: when people choose their enlightened social ethic over him.
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  So on the one hand,
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  I would have to say what is best would be that churches cling
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  to the truth.
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  SPEAKER_01: At the same time,
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  I do think it has to be said to answer your question that just
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  like in my story,
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  SPEAKER_01: this is proof that God is
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  and that God can even work through brokenness and broken
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  churches and broken decisions.
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  SPEAKER_01: So I think God is redemptive in that way.
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  SPEAKER_01: He uses even those kinds of churches to ultimately save people.
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  SPEAKER_00: I wanted to add this little anecdote.
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  SPEAKER_00: A few years ago,
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  my husband and I were out around Christmas time and there was a
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  woman next to us
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  SPEAKER_00: and we had talked about going to church on Christmas.
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  SPEAKER_00: And I guess we asked her if she went to church and she said,
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  SPEAKER_00: No, I am actually a lesbian and churches don't accept people like me.
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  SPEAKER_00: And I was just so sad to hear that.
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  SPEAKER_00: So,
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  SPEAKER_00: I mean,
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  how can churches that are more like yours try to reach people
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  who might not feel welcome?
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  I have to start by giving the honest answer that our church
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  does not do as good of
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  SPEAKER_01: a job as we would like of engaging,
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  SPEAKER_01: attracting,
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  SPEAKER_01: keeping those kinds of folks.
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  The reality is it's very difficult to be a church that does
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  cling to biblical truth
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  and doesn't pull punches and doesn't sugarcoat it and at the
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  same time not offend people.
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  SPEAKER_01: some people.
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  SPEAKER_01: So part of it, I think it's all a matter of how you do it.
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  SPEAKER_01: You can preach in a way that communicates God's love.
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  SPEAKER_01: I mean,
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  SPEAKER_01: if heterosexuality is God's design for our sexuality,
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  SPEAKER_01: and if life is God's design for a pregnancy,
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  SPEAKER_01: these kinds of things that we see clearly in his word,
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  then we know it must be because he is good and because he loves
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  us and because that
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  SPEAKER_01: is best for us.
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  SPEAKER_01: I mean,
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  this is the way that Jesus talks about it as sin is slavery and
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  Jesus wants to free
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  SPEAKER_01: us from that.
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  And to not preach on these things,
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  to not speak out would be unloving of us.
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  SPEAKER_01: To allow people to go on being enslaved,
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  SPEAKER_01: to sin.
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  SPEAKER_01: So it is still very much our calling to preach the gospel to all people,
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  SPEAKER_01: including the very ones that feel the most rejected by the church.
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  The reality is I should assume every week that someone could
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  just stumble in off
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  SPEAKER_01: the street and just find our church.
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  SPEAKER_01: And it's their very first time ever in a church.
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  SPEAKER_01: And do I want them to have the impression
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  SPEAKER_01: that they already,
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  SPEAKER_01: frankly,
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  SPEAKER_01: probably have stereotype that these Christians are,
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  SPEAKER_01: are judgmental and gay hating and,
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  SPEAKER_01: and abortion haters and whatever,
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  SPEAKER_01: as opposed to,
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  SPEAKER_01: yeah,
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  SPEAKER_01: he didn't pull punches.
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  SPEAKER_01: It was truth.
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  SPEAKER_01: I mean, if, if the Bible is truth.
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  But he did it in a loving,
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  caring way that was reflective of God's own heart.
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  SPEAKER_01: Like you said,
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  SPEAKER_01: Rebecca,
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  the church of all places should be the place where those
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  sinners are welcome
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  SPEAKER_01: because they were welcome with Jesus,
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  SPEAKER_01: friend of sinners.
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  SPEAKER_01: And so I had a congregant email me just a couple of weeks ago and said,
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  SPEAKER_01: hey,
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  I've been talking about the gospel and my church and my faith
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  with one of my coworkers.
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  SPEAKER_01: He, she is transgender.
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  SPEAKER_01: Um, I've invited him to church and I just want to know, is that okay?
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  SPEAKER_01: Like with the people of West Hills be okay.
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  SPEAKER_01: If someone walked in who clearly was six foot three with an Adam's apple,
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  SPEAKER_01: but you know,
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  SPEAKER_01: in a wig and fake boobs and
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  like would they be okay with that and these are real things
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  that we got to wrestle
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  through as a church like the church of all places should be a
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  place where that
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  person can hear yes you just like everyone else are a sinner
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  but you are loved
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  beyond what you could ever imagine by jesus and he can save you
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  from whatever it
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  might be that you're struggling with and i've told my people i
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  expect if that
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  SPEAKER_01: person walks in the door that person when they leave going out the door
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  If they say nothing else about what I said from the pulpit and
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  how I said it,
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  SPEAKER_01: if nothing else,
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  SPEAKER_01: they should say,
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  SPEAKER_01: man,
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  SPEAKER_01: those people love well.
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  Everybody that was coming up to me,
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  asking my name,
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  asking how can I pray for you.
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  SPEAKER_01: It's so good to have you here,
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  SPEAKER_01: you know,
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  SPEAKER_01: because we should just be that hospitable and welcoming,
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  SPEAKER_01: especially of the people who need it the most like Jesus did.
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  So I know we also wanted to talk about people leaving the
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  church and why.
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  Maybe you could talk a little bit about deconstructors and ex-evangelicals,
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  SPEAKER_00: what that is exactly and what you think the main culprits are.
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  SPEAKER_01: So a lot of these terms are new in the last five or 10 years.
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  SPEAKER_01: Deconstruction, we'll start with that.
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  SPEAKER_01: You know,
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  SPEAKER_01: you've got a faith foundation,
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  SPEAKER_01: you're going to church,
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  SPEAKER_01: you're reading your Bible,
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  SPEAKER_01: you're building this faith.
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  And the idea of deconstruction is literally undoing that and
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  tearing that down.
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  SPEAKER_01: Um,
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  SPEAKER_01: to get back to the foundation,
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  SPEAKER_01: the basics,
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  SPEAKER_01: and questioning,
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  SPEAKER_01: like,
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  SPEAKER_01: how do we know that it's really God's Word?
• 11:05
  SPEAKER_01: This says it was written by Paul,
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  but this scholar is telling me that the earliest manuscripts
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  are from this location.
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  SPEAKER_01: To that extent,
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  SPEAKER_01: I think some of deconstructing one's faith can be redemptive,
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  SPEAKER_01: can be beneficial if
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  SPEAKER_01: The goal is ultimately to reconstruct.
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  SPEAKER_01: God wants a living, breathing, active, vibrant faith for each of us.
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  SPEAKER_01: But what I remember seeing,
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  especially coming out of that world was the illusion of we on
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  the skeptical side,
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  SPEAKER_01: we're being more objective.
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  SPEAKER_01: And I think a lot of that, frankly, comes from a place where
• 11:41
  SPEAKER_01: of not wanting to believe and wanting to find reasons to not have to,
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  SPEAKER_01: because belief,
• 11:46
  SPEAKER_01: faith is costly.
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  SPEAKER_01: It's not like,
• 11:48
  SPEAKER_01: well,
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  y'all just believe the Bible because you want to believe that
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  it's true and you
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  SPEAKER_01: want to believe it's God's word.
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  SPEAKER_01: And so you give the benefit of the doubt and find these loopholes.
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  SPEAKER_01: And what I've
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  took me years and years and years to finally realize and come
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  to is no one's objective.
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  SPEAKER_01: Like, you're right.
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  SPEAKER_01: I am coming at this with my own subjectivity.
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  SPEAKER_01: You're right.
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  SPEAKER_01: I am interpreting in this way because I want it to be true.
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  SPEAKER_01: I want it to be God's word.
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  SPEAKER_01: I want it to be right.
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  SPEAKER_01: I don't want it to contradict itself.
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  SPEAKER_01: So yeah, that is my bias.
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  SPEAKER_01: But what I don't often see is the other side of the table in that debate,
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  SPEAKER_01: being honest enough to say,
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  SPEAKER_01: You know, I actually don't want it to be true.
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  SPEAKER_01: I want it to be the case that homosexuality is a sin.
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  I don't want it to be the case that there is a God who might
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  have said things that
• 12:30
  SPEAKER_01: I disagree with,
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  but he's more important than me and he's the creator and I
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  ought to listen to him
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  SPEAKER_01: and let him be the one in charge and call the shots and make the rules.
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  SPEAKER_01: I don't want any of that to be true.
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  So you don't often see that kind of honesty,
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  I feel like,
• 12:42
  from the skeptical side of things.
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  Exvangelical,
• 12:45
  just quickly,
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  is someone who came out of the evangelical world
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  of the Bible-believing conservative camp of Christianity and
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  who has since come to say,
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  SPEAKER_01: yeah,
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  SPEAKER_01: I am rejecting that specifically.
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  And sometimes there's a whole other podcast you can have with
• 13:00
  somebody else about
• 13:01
  SPEAKER_01: evangelical is obviously a loaded word.
• 13:04
  A lot of people in our society in America today hear
• 13:06
  evangelical and they might as well,
• 13:09
  SPEAKER_01: in their mind,
• 13:09
  SPEAKER_01: be substituting in voted for Trump.
• 13:12
  Um,
• 13:13
  and so I do think a lot of this has been put on steroids in the
• 13:16
  last eight,
• 13:17
  nine years.
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  SPEAKER_01: And I think that's where we need to start any of these conversations.
• 13:21
  If somebody was to tell me,
• 13:24
  oh,
• 13:24
  I'm an ex-evangelical,
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  I reject evangelicalism.
• 13:27
  My first question and response would be,
• 13:29
  can you be more specific about what you reject?
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  Because there's probably an 80 to 90% chance that I reject a
• 13:36
  lot of the same stuff you reject.
• 13:38
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 13:38
  And I think a lot of what they reject is a lot of the
• 13:41
  conflation of the church and
• 13:44
  SPEAKER_01: America and not really explicitly biblical doctrines.
• 13:48
  SPEAKER_01: You know,
• 13:49
  SPEAKER_01: it's the no drinking,
• 13:50
  SPEAKER_01: no gambling,
• 13:51
  SPEAKER_01: no cussing,
• 13:51
  SPEAKER_01: no dancing,
• 13:52
  SPEAKER_01: and when they can't wear pants.
• 13:53
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, it's the churchy culture stuff.
• 13:55
  SPEAKER_01: You can't find a chapter and verse for a lot of it.
• 13:58
  SPEAKER_01: that certainly I grew up with in the South and the Bible built,
• 14:02
  SPEAKER_01: ex-evangelical means I'm rejecting that.
• 14:04
  But you do certainly see folks rejecting the tenets of faith of evangelicalism,
• 14:08
  SPEAKER_01: that the Bible really is the word of God.
• 14:10
  SPEAKER_01: I wish I had come to that point coming through Vanderbilt where I'm like,
• 14:14
  SPEAKER_01: I cannot believe this is God's word.
• 14:16
  SPEAKER_01: I've deconstructed too much.
• 14:17
  I've checked under the undercarriage and kicked the tires and
• 14:21
  all this stuff.
• 14:22
  SPEAKER_01: And it took me years of recovery to realize,
• 14:24
  SPEAKER_01: but all of that checking,
• 14:26
  all of the study and research and learning that I did about the
• 14:30
  Bible and about the
• 14:31
  Christian faith was all being done by people who had a vested
• 14:36
  interest in it not
• 14:37
  SPEAKER_01: being true and in not wanting it to be true.
• 14:39
  SPEAKER_01: They were subjective to, and I was just drinking the Kool-Aid.
• 14:43
  And so you come to a point where,
• 14:46
  yeah,
• 14:46
  you just got to decide,
• 14:47
  who do I trust?
• 14:49
  Whose opinion of this Bible,
• 14:50
  of this text,
• 14:51
  of this God,
• 14:51
  of this faith am I going to trust?
• 14:54
  So in your opinion,
• 14:55
  what would be a healthy way to be able to ask questions?
• 14:58
  SPEAKER_00: And is there any dose of skepticism that is appropriate?
• 15:05
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 15:05
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 15:07
  SPEAKER_01: There is.
• 15:08
  And I think that I mentioned a verse in my article about God is
• 15:12
  not afraid for us
• 15:13
  SPEAKER_01: to ask questions.
• 15:14
  And I don't see anywhere in God's word where God tells us that
• 15:18
  being a Christian
• 15:19
  SPEAKER_01: means shutting your brain off.
• 15:20
  So I think the healthiest way is for starters to check your own
• 15:27
  motives and be
• 15:29
  SPEAKER_01: honest enough to admit,
• 15:30
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 15:31
  SPEAKER_01: I want this or don't want this to be true.
• 15:33
  SPEAKER_01: But then also,
• 15:34
  SPEAKER_01: I just think engaging a diversity of dialogue partners and resources,
• 15:39
  SPEAKER_01: I feel like I got captivated by the academia and the scholarly world.
• 15:45
  SPEAKER_01: And frankly,
• 15:45
  SPEAKER_01: I think if I had,
• 15:47
  SPEAKER_01: during that phase of life,
• 15:49
  SPEAKER_01: just done a little bit more digging to realize that
• 15:52
  SPEAKER_01: There are answers for all this stuff.
• 15:54
  SPEAKER_01: This objection you're raising is not really a credible objection.
• 15:58
  I might have really saved myself a world of hurt and wandering
• 16:02
  from the faith there
• 16:03
  SPEAKER_01: because I was really only hearing it from one side.
• 16:06
  And to their credit,
• 16:07
  I had a lot of people who loved me,
• 16:08
  who were praying for me,
• 16:09
  who tried.
• 16:09
  SPEAKER_01: I think of my mom, I think of my next door neighbor, my youth pastor.
• 16:14
  SPEAKER_01: People who saw what was happening in my heart and in my head and who were
• 16:18
  SPEAKER_01: you know, Hey, can we get coffee when you're back in town?
• 16:20
  SPEAKER_01: Can we talk?
• 16:21
  And he tried to,
• 16:22
  to talk me off some of these ledges,
• 16:24
  but it was really on me.
• 16:26
  SPEAKER_01: So anyway,
• 16:27
  SPEAKER_01: I would encourage anyone that's going through that right now and say,
• 16:30
  SPEAKER_01: look,
• 16:31
  you're probably not going to find any new objection to
• 16:35
  Christianity or some new
• 16:36
  SPEAKER_01: hole in the Bible that everyone else missed for the last 2000 years.
• 16:40
  SPEAKER_01: There's nothing new under the sun.
• 16:41
  SPEAKER_01: Like the Bible says,
• 16:42
  So keep asking questions,
• 16:44
  but make sure that you're getting answers,
• 16:46
  not just from one side.
• 16:47
  And you can take that lesson and apply it to any number of
• 16:50
  things that we see in
• 16:51
  SPEAKER_01: our world today,
• 16:52
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 16:53
  and just how dangerous it is when any of us get so caught up in
• 16:58
  our echo chamber.
• 17:00
  SPEAKER_01: We talk about these days, the echo chamber of social media.
• 17:03
  SPEAKER_01: And when the only voices are this uber conservative or the uber woke,
• 17:06
  SPEAKER_01: I just think good things happen when we talk to people not like us.
• 17:12
  SPEAKER_00: Makes a lot of sense.
• 17:14
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 17:15
  SPEAKER_00: So wrapping up, I like to end each episode with a Bible verse.
• 17:21
  Maybe something related to today or if you have any
• 17:25
  encouragement for people who
• 17:26
  might be questioning their faith or who have a loved one
• 17:29
  questioning their faith.
• 17:30
  SPEAKER_00: Is there anything you want to contribute?
• 17:34
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 17:34
  SPEAKER_01: Well,
• 17:35
  SPEAKER_01: one of the verses that has met the most to me,
• 17:37
  certainly since getting into the ministry and thinking about my
• 17:40
  sense of calling,
• 17:41
  SPEAKER_01: where we began to maybe bring it full circle,
• 17:43
  SPEAKER_01: is 1 Corinthians 15 verses 9 and 10,
• 17:46
  SPEAKER_01: where the apostle Paul is sharing the gospel.
• 17:50
  He's making a defense of the gospel to the Corinthians and
• 17:53
  reminding them that
• 17:54
  SPEAKER_01: there is credibility here.
• 17:56
  SPEAKER_01: There is historicity here.
• 17:57
  SPEAKER_01: Jesus
• 17:58
  SPEAKER_01: died like he said he would.
• 17:59
  SPEAKER_01: He rose like he said he would.
• 18:01
  SPEAKER_01: And then he appeared to more than 500 of us and to James and John.
• 18:05
  SPEAKER_01: And then he says, lastly, he appeared to me.
• 18:08
  SPEAKER_01: But then specifically this part where Paul says,
• 18:10
  SPEAKER_01: for I'm the least of the apostles,
• 18:11
  SPEAKER_01: unworthy to be called an apostle because I persecuted the church of God.
• 18:15
  SPEAKER_01: But by the grace of God, I am what I am.
• 18:17
  SPEAKER_01: And his grace toward me was not in vain.
• 18:19
  SPEAKER_01: On the contrary, I worked harder than any of them.
• 18:22
  And for me,
• 18:23
  that has been maybe not a life verse,
• 18:25
  but certainly like a vocational kind of verse.
• 18:28
  SPEAKER_01: As I think about my own pastoring,
• 18:30
  SPEAKER_01: I'm not an apostle,
• 18:31
  SPEAKER_01: obviously,
• 18:32
  SPEAKER_01: but I'm a leader in the church.
• 18:33
  SPEAKER_01: Like Paul was a leader in the church.
• 18:35
  SPEAKER_01: And yet,
• 18:36
  SPEAKER_01: as Paul had the humility to recognize I'm the least worthy,
• 18:40
  SPEAKER_01: like of all the people Christ should have called and chosen,
• 18:43
  SPEAKER_01: I was in charge of
• 18:45
  SPEAKER_01: rounding up and murdering the Christians.
• 18:46
  SPEAKER_01: And I think of my own story and we didn't talk about it,
• 18:49
  but I was serving as a youth pastor while I was at Vanderbilt
• 18:52
  and I was in a
• 18:53
  mainline church and I would every Wednesday night get a group
• 18:56
  of teenagers together
• 18:57
  SPEAKER_01: at my church.
• 18:58
  And I was processing my own doubts and questions with them and
• 19:01
  I was causing doubts for them.
• 19:03
  SPEAKER_01: And I just go back and I could really lose a lot of sleep thinking about
• 19:08
  SPEAKER_01: Like Jesus says,
• 19:08
  SPEAKER_01: if you lead a little one astray,
• 19:10
  it's better to have a millstone tied around your neck and
• 19:13
  thrown in and drown.
• 19:14
  SPEAKER_01: And I think how many kids did I possibly lead astray during those years?
• 19:18
  SPEAKER_01: And yet, you know, Paul murdered Christians.
• 19:21
  Paul did as much damage to the Christian faith or tried to as I
• 19:24
  did and more.
• 19:25
  SPEAKER_01: And yet.
• 19:26
  He could say,
• 19:27
  by God's grace,
• 19:28
  I am what I am,
• 19:29
  and His grace toward me is not in vain.
• 19:30
  SPEAKER_01: And so because of how much I know He's done for me,
• 19:33
  SPEAKER_01: it's going to motivate me to work all the harder,
• 19:35
  SPEAKER_01: to preach all the harder,
• 19:36
  SPEAKER_01: to minister all the harder,
• 19:37
  SPEAKER_01: to take this gospel to the ends of the earth.
• 19:39
  And so I do feel like I have hopefully a different kind of fire
• 19:44
  in my belly when I
• 19:44
  preach on Sunday mornings than I would have if I had not been
• 19:47
  through the journey
• 19:48
  SPEAKER_01: that I've been through.
• 19:49
  I'm not sure I would have such a passion for seeing people come
• 19:52
  to know Christ and
• 19:53
  SPEAKER_01: come to know the truth because I was led astray for a season.
• 19:57
  So I have all the more passion for seeing people know the truth
• 20:01
  and be set free.
• 20:01
  SPEAKER_01: So I love that verse.
• 20:03
  SPEAKER_01: I hope that can be encouraging to others that,
• 20:05
  SPEAKER_01: hey,
• 20:05
  SPEAKER_01: if your story is like mine,
• 20:08
  SPEAKER_01: God is bigger than your sins.
• 20:09
  He's bigger than your wandering and he can redeem it all if
• 20:12
  you'll let him.
• 20:14
  SPEAKER_00: That is such a beautiful story.
• 20:16
  SPEAKER_00: And I love how God has a plan for all of us.
• 20:19
  And it seems like you are so uniquely equipped now to minister
• 20:23
  to and reach people
• 20:25
  SPEAKER_00: who are questioning their faith.
• 20:27
  SPEAKER_00: So anyway, thank you so much for sharing.
• 20:29
  SPEAKER_00: I think that was very inspiring for sure.
• 20:33
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you for giving me the opportunity.
• 20:34
  SPEAKER_01: It's an honor.
• 20:36
  SPEAKER_00: And thanks to all of you.
• 20:37
  SPEAKER_00: I would love to hear from you.
• 20:39
  SPEAKER_00: If you have any questions,
• 20:40
  SPEAKER_00: comments about today's episode,
• 20:42
  feel free to reach out on social media or comment wherever you
• 20:46
  are listening to
• 20:47
  SPEAKER_00: this podcast.
• 20:48
  So stay inspired,
• 20:51
  keep trusting in God's plan for your life,
• 20:54
  and we'll see you next time.