Latest / Buying Local Podcast / Navigating the Golden Years with Kym Hance | Buying Local S3E52

Transcript

Navigating the Golden Years with Kym Hance | Buying Local S3E52 · Buying Local Podcast

0:00
Welcome everyone to Buying Local.
0:02
I'm your host Mike Nelson from 5 Towers Media and I'm joined
0:06
today by And Kim. I always say this on every
0:09
episode pretty much because I mess up everybody's name.
0:12
It's I'm. Going to I'm going to pronounce
0:15
how it reads. It's it's Kim Hans from Herzog
0:19
Law firm. Yeah.
0:20
Yeah, I got it right. I always say it's like Chance
0:22
without the C on front. Just chance.
0:25
There you go. Perfect.
0:26
Well, thank you so much for jumping on with me.
0:28
I'm really excited about our conversation today.
0:31
Yeah, I am too. If you don't mind, why don't you
0:34
just kind of go ahead and tell us you know, a little bit about
0:37
who you are and and what you're doing over at Herzog?
0:40
Sure. So so my background, so Kim Hans
0:44
and I am my professional term is an aging life care manager.
0:52
What that means is I sort of specialize in all things getting
0:56
older. So I've spent the majority of
1:00
my, and I, and I love when I say this, my multi decade career and
1:07
in really providing services to older adults.
1:11
From the time I've graduated from college, I've worked sort
1:14
of in the nursing home system, assisted living, memory care,
1:19
independent living. I've done home care.
1:22
I took a little bit of a break and worked with the homeless,
1:25
HIV, AIDS, AIDS population. But really my passion has always
1:29
been older adults and helping navigate the systems for those
1:34
that population. So when upstate, I've worked for
1:40
the Alzheimer's Association and then from there that kind of led
1:43
me to my position here at the law firm.
1:46
So and I've been here for about 8 years now and really love what
1:49
I do. Yeah, I'm curious, you know, it
1:54
sounds like you're very passionate about who you work
1:56
with and how you help them. It is.
1:59
Is that just, I mean, did you just kind of fall into it, into
2:02
it or why are you so passionate about it?
2:06
I've always had a bit of a soft spot for older folks, and I
2:11
think a lot of it just stems from early on in my career,
2:15
working in a nursing home in particular, I think we forget
2:19
sometimes the the wisdom and the lives, the remarkable lives that
2:27
a lot of our older adults have had.
2:30
A lot of times our paths don't cross an older adult until maybe
2:36
they have an issue or there's a problem or maybe they're not
2:39
functioning fully. I also started developing a
2:44
passion because I think a lot of times you learn a lot about
2:48
somebody when you read their obituary, right?
2:50
And I know that sounds really morbid, but a lot of times
2:53
people be like, gosh, I never really knew that about that
2:56
person, right? Because again, they weren't
2:57
meeting them until later life. And so you're really only seeing
3:00
that person as they're presenting at that time.
3:03
So in this position, I certainly am dealing with folks in at that
3:09
time, but I'm also trying to learn about who they are because
3:13
for me, that's a big part of being able to preserve some of
3:16
that dignity that folks should have an older life.
3:21
Anytime I work with a family, I always say like, you know, we
3:25
refer to this stage as the, as the golden years, but I feel
3:30
like a lot of times our, our folks don't feel that way,
3:34
right? They're, they're really feeling
3:35
beat down by whatever it is that they're dealing with, whether
3:38
it's a chronic illness, family dynamics, you know, decisions
3:42
that are having to be made around finances or just, you
3:45
know, just all the things that kind of come tumbling down sort
3:50
of in that last chapter. So, so big part of my passion is
3:53
really wanting to help people meet whatever that aging goal is
3:58
and make it the the best that it can be for them.
4:01
Really to to help make it truly be the golden years, right not.
4:04
Yeah, or at least, you know, put a little spit on it and tarnish
4:09
it up a little bit. You know I mean.
4:10
You can't always make it perfect for everybody, right?
4:13
But it's at least knowing that folks have options and at least
4:18
know all of the different resources that can help them get
4:23
to certain places. Cause a lot, a lot of times
4:25
people just aren't even having conversations.
4:27
And it's helping families navigate through that too.
4:30
Cause a lot of times it's the kids that I get a phone call
4:34
from and they're like, my parents can no longer live like
4:37
this. You know, with the, the crossed
4:39
arms and you have to tell them that they can't.
4:42
And a lot of times it's sort of it's negotiating, right?
4:46
It's it's saying, well, I know it might not be ideal, right?
4:51
But this is how they're choosing at this moment and we can try to
4:55
support them to the best that we can.
4:57
I think sometimes going in Blazing Saddles and saying, you,
5:00
you can't do this is, is really, you know, it's going to cause
5:04
somebody to really put the brakes on, dig in their heels
5:07
and sometimes make situations worse.
5:09
So I do a lot of mediating as well.
5:14
So yeah. So Kim, tell us a little bit
5:18
about the Herzog Law firm so we can kind of put this in context
5:22
as far as you bring to the table for Herzog.
5:25
So, but I feel like I know we've had Phil on the show and we
5:32
should probably just put some context as far as what Herzog
5:34
does. So what?
5:35
Yeah, no, the overview. Yeah, of course.
5:39
So, you know, in the, in the big broad spectrum of things, we're
5:42
in a state planning elder law firm.
5:45
You know, we, we do things all. And when people hear that word
5:48
estate planning, they're kind of like, they kind of get lost in
5:51
that word because you know, what's the first thing you think
5:53
of when you hear the word estate?
5:56
You think, oh, it's people who have a lot of money.
5:58
But really what it boils down to is it's we really help people
6:03
and really we say anyone 18 and older should have the beginnings
6:06
of an estate plan. And that's just your basic
6:08
healthcare proxy power of attorney.
6:10
You know, it could include a will, but that's sort of your
6:13
basic estate planning, right? It's healthcare, healthcare
6:16
proxy, power of attorney and and a will Beyond that, you know, we
6:20
really work with families to help them with maybe younger
6:24
kids, you know, who's going, you know, should something
6:27
unfortunate happen, what's the plan for those kids help put
6:31
something like that. But we really specialize in
6:34
elder law and what does that mean?
6:35
So elder law really is the focus on, you know, when we're talking
6:41
about folks retirement, maybe a little bit pre retirement,
6:45
retirement, looking at how do you want the rest of the time
6:50
that you've been working for look like for you?
6:53
Do you want to preserve assets for the younger generation,
6:56
maybe for kids, grandkids? Do you have a plan for what
7:01
should happen if you need long term care?
7:03
And a lot of times when people hear that word, long term care,
7:06
they just think nursing home, there's so much more that goes
7:09
into long term care. And you know, anytime I'm out in
7:12
the community doing any kind of education, I always say like,
7:15
you know, whose plan is to go to the nursing home and nobody ever
7:19
raises a hand, right? So nobody ever plans for that to
7:22
be where they're going to end up.
7:25
Unfortunately, what ends up happening is it's, it's the
7:29
unfortunate part of, of getting older is it sometimes does
7:32
become part of the plan. So we really want to have
7:35
conversations with folks early on to really talk about what
7:39
your wishes are, what that could look like for you.
7:42
Do you plan on staying in this the, you know, maybe you have a
7:45
generational home that you've lived in for many, many years.
7:49
Is it your plan to stay there? What could that look like for
7:52
you? Do you plan to downsize?
7:55
When do you think you might make plans to do that?
7:57
Do you want to travel like? So we incorporate all of that
8:00
into sort of the estate plan because again, we want to make
8:03
sure that people have enough sort of to live the life that
8:06
they want to live as they retire and get older, but they also
8:10
have the ability to access some of the services that they could
8:13
need. You know, we're living, we're,
8:16
we're in a generation now where we've got people living much
8:19
longer than they ever have and needing care also for a much
8:24
longer period of time because medicine has come so far.
8:29
People are not always living better, I think.
8:31
And so it's having those conversations with folks too, to
8:34
really understand what their goals of care are and kind of
8:37
teasing out what they do or don't want.
8:41
So, you know, from an estate planning elder law firm, we
8:44
really are focused on sort of all these aging issues, what it
8:47
encompasses, what resources are out there.
8:50
How can we help you navigate and sort of get to the place where
8:53
you want to be and plan ahead? I mean, we love collaborating
8:57
with other professionals like financial advisors, other, you
9:02
know, long term care planning resources because we're all
9:07
players sort of on the same team and everybody sort of has a job
9:11
and we all have to kind of communicate to really help make
9:14
sure that that person's that individual's goals are, are met.
9:19
OK, now I, you know, I, when I first met you, I got it.
9:24
It must have been like maybe six or seven months ago, I think.
9:26
I know time flies, right? Very quickly, yes.
9:29
And you know, one of the things I I thought was really
9:31
interesting is what you're bringing to the table, 'cause
9:34
you're not a lawyer, right? No, no I'm not.
9:37
So, you know, primarily a state law is all lawyers and again,
9:42
lawyers are great, you know, not saying that, but but I thought
9:47
it was really interesting that Herzog has you as a part of this
9:51
process. And so I'm curious, you know,
9:55
obviously this is a pretty unique offering as far as a
9:59
state law in our area. I'm sure maybe there's other
10:01
firms somewhere that do this, but I know locally I'm not aware
10:05
of any. But how, where do you plug in
10:09
with that process with the attorneys and coming in?
10:12
Yep. So you know, we always talk
10:15
about how, how things sort of morph, right?
10:18
You know, originally when I first started with the firm, it
10:21
was really to kind of focus on. So one of the things that we do
10:25
a lot of is Medicaid. So whether it be nursing home or
10:28
community based services. So one of the one of the
10:30
offerings that I, I brought. So to your point, I'm not an
10:33
attorney. I'm a social worker and a
10:35
certified case manager and that's sort of the role I was
10:39
playing with the Alzheimer's Association.
10:42
I'm what was sort of doing care consultations, information
10:45
referral and all that kind of stuff.
10:47
And it started working with Herzog as sort of my expert law
10:50
firm and talking about what some of the issues are that you as we
10:53
age, particularly with a chronic illness like Alzheimer's
10:57
dementia, like what sort of planning do you need to think
10:59
about? What do you need to put in
11:00
place? And it was just very symbiotic,
11:03
right? Like just worked really well
11:05
together. And so, you know, Herzog does,
11:10
we really specialize in community Medicaid as well and
11:13
that's really accessing services in the community because as I
11:16
said before, most people, you know, nursing home is not where
11:19
they want to be. So let's plan for being at home
11:22
or in the community where, you know, there is actually a robust
11:26
amount of of services available. And so originally that was sort
11:29
of where I came in was to really help to navigate that piece
11:32
because it's really easy to get somebody Medicaid, believe it or
11:36
not. The hard part, and this is what
11:39
I always say to families is, is then really understanding what's
11:43
available and getting to the right spot because there are
11:46
multiple programs. There are lots of agencies,
11:49
There are, you know, I don't know if you've ever had an
11:52
experience with a loved one, but going to the hospital and you're
11:55
getting discharged, they give you a list of like 20 resources
11:59
and you don't even know where to start, right?
12:01
So a lot of what I do is kind of cut the chase.
12:04
I know who the resources are, I know who the players are.
12:07
So I'm immediately calling folks and kind of getting that in
12:09
place for our clients. So they're not having, they can
12:14
really deal. They're already dealing with
12:16
being a caregiver, which is can be a 24/7 roll.
12:19
So then to task them with, well, now you need to know what plan
12:24
you need to choose. And now you need to know what
12:26
program is going to be best for your loved one.
12:28
And now you need to know how to advocate for the right agency.
12:31
And now you need to know like, you know, you need to understand
12:34
the language and nuances so that all these programs deliver.
12:38
You would think that there was a source out there that would do
12:41
that, but but there really isn't.
12:43
So I think it was really thoughtful and, and really sort
12:48
of a great add on for the guys here to really be like, you
12:54
know, we want to help our clients sort of finish the
12:56
process, not just start it, but really finish it and actually
12:59
get the services that that that they're entitled to.
13:04
Prior to that, for 20 years I've been doing what's called private
13:07
care management services. So really that means it's not
13:10
attached to anything. So it's not attached to, you
13:12
know, being part of the law firm, which people can actually
13:16
get through us as well. So it's not just a Medicaid
13:19
application. Folks can come and get care
13:22
management because they have a loved one, maybe family lives
13:26
far away and they need somebody that's eyes and ears to be able
13:29
to help coordinate services, to be able to make sure the
13:32
services are are being, you know, followed through on to
13:36
advocate with maybe some multiple physicians that a
13:39
client might have. I mean, most of our folks as
13:41
they get older, you're seeing four or five docs, right?
13:44
And a lot of times we don't know why somebody's prescribing
13:49
something. You know what if it is helpful
13:52
or more beneficial. So it's really, you know, it's a
13:56
very holistic model, right? So I know a lot about finances,
14:01
legal, medical, you know, housing.
14:06
So my job is really pulling all of those pieces together and
14:09
putting together a plan for somebody so that they can, you
14:13
know, ultimately remain independent as long as possible
14:16
because that's really what most people want.
14:18
So for some people that might be hiring some outside help, for
14:22
some folks that might be looking at assistive technology, which
14:26
technology now is amazing. You know, I, I love going in and
14:29
helping people, you know, get their homes in a place where it,
14:33
it can be more user friendly for them when maybe their doctor is
14:37
telling them it's time to move or their kids are telling them
14:39
it's time to move because their house is no longer, you know,
14:43
accessible for them. There are lots of things that we
14:46
can do, you know, that are small.
14:49
So for some people it might be bigger, right, if they can't get
14:51
upstairs anymore and your bedrooms and bathroom are all
14:54
upstairs. But there's still ways for us to
14:56
look at maybe retrofitting that house.
14:58
Or maybe that is when we start having the conversation about
15:02
downsizing. And in a lot of situations, I
15:05
can come at it from the angle where I'm working with the
15:08
individuals to, to say, what is it you see as a deficit and a
15:12
need and how can I help you get there?
15:15
A lot of times when it's our kids telling us that we can't,
15:19
then they're not really willing to have the conversation.
15:22
And so when you've got somebody that's coming in that's neutral,
15:27
and a lot of times it will, you know, that's what kids will say.
15:29
It's like, how did you get them to change their mind or how did
15:31
you get them to make them? And I was like, I really just
15:34
came at it and from a different approach.
15:36
And and they don't push my buttons, right.
15:40
I mean, I have parents that live.
15:43
My dad passed away last year, but you know, aging parents that
15:47
needed a lot. I had to hire a care manager
15:49
down in North Carolina because my parents were just not willing
15:53
to hear what I have almost 40 years worth of knowledge doing,
15:57
right. So, so a lot of times, you know,
16:00
we're still kids, how could we possibly know what is best, you
16:05
know, sort of thing. So a lot of times it's helpful
16:08
having that outside person really.
16:12
And that's why I say a lot of times I spend a lot of time
16:13
mediating, right? It's really hearing all sides
16:16
and helping everybody kind of come together with a, a, a
16:19
common goal and a common plan. Just sometimes you'd look at it
16:22
a little differently. So.
16:24
Well, it sounds like, you know, it kind of softens the
16:27
conversation that kids are trying to have with their
16:29
parents, right, 'cause you, you don't have any skin in the game.
16:32
You're not there with an agenda. You're just there to take in the
16:35
information and make a recommendation as a professional
16:38
without any ulterior motive whatsoever, right?
16:43
It sounds and, and am I correct? I mean, so you engage with
16:47
clients, they may not be coming to Herzog for an estate plan.
16:52
They may just need new services and you're able to engage with
16:55
them in those. Yeah.
16:57
So we had, you know, we have the Medicaid branch of it and then
16:59
we have just the the stand alone.
17:01
So folks don't need to be getting any kind of legal
17:04
assistance from us. They might have their plans in
17:06
place and a lot of times, you know, we'll offer consultations
17:10
to anybody to review their documents just to make sure that
17:13
they do align. Because again, there's a big
17:15
difference between somebody who does estate planning and
17:17
somebody who does elder law estate planning, right?
17:20
Because we are really looking at that long term care piece.
17:23
We're really looking ahead and kind of being like, what can we
17:26
set up to make sure that in the future you'll be OK, right?
17:30
You can either access whatever services are available.
17:33
Let's talk about, you know, are you a veteran and maybe you
17:35
haven't accessed the VA system? Let's talk about what that could
17:38
look like and what they might be able to offer you.
17:41
So and it's, it's knowing what each nuance is in every
17:45
community too. So you know, we have offices in
17:48
Kingston, Albany, Saratoga and Queensbury now.
17:52
And I move between all of those offices.
17:54
So I basically say we, you know, we provide services between the
17:58
Mid Hudson Valley and the Canadian border and every
18:01
community is very unique. And I'm really lucky that I've
18:05
worked a lot in the North Country in the Capital Region
18:10
and now the Hudson Valley with this job.
18:12
So having a broad knowledge of what's out there and, and really
18:17
how each, you know, community sort of plays into helping
18:22
support an individual and in their own community is really
18:25
helpful and really beneficial. I mean, you know, it's much
18:28
different when I visit somebody out in Washington County versus
18:31
somebody that I would meet in Schenectady, NY, right?
18:34
So it's really understanding how each of those community work
18:38
and, and knowing the players in each of those communities so you
18:41
can make the connections a little bit easier and make it
18:43
better for those families so they're not sitting there, you
18:47
know, worried about what's going to happen.
18:49
Yeah. And so so you go to their homes.
18:53
Oh yeah, that's a big, you know, that's a big, big part of of
18:56
what I do. So doing home visits, it's it's
19:00
multi purposed in a lot of situations for me to be able to
19:04
put eyes on somebody's house to help them understand what kinds
19:08
of things we could do to make make it more livable for them,
19:11
make it safer, make it, you know, more accessible, you know,
19:15
just make things a little bit easier.
19:16
And then what are some of the resources that we might be able
19:19
to utilize to make that house more friendly for for an
19:23
individual? A lot of times it tells the
19:26
story about how somebody's doing as well, right?
19:29
Because you know, you can see things piling up on a counter.
19:34
You know, a lot of times I'll open the refrigerator and if
19:37
there's a, a strong odor of something like there are lots of
19:40
little quiet things that tell me a lot.
19:43
So when I'm doing a home visit, it really like I, I feel like
19:47
I'm doing a little bit of a detective work, but it's it, it
19:51
really does tell a story. If somebody's still driving, you
19:54
know, I make sure to make a take a look at the car because I'm
19:57
looking for a little dents or scratches because that tells me.
20:01
A lot if somebody is if their hubcaps are really torn up,
20:04
they're really, you know, parking by touch and not really
20:06
by what you know, And it's just those little things.
20:09
So it's those little things that can really help me kind of put
20:12
together a puzzle. You know, kids, our families are
20:17
really far removed now. We, we don't live in the same
20:20
towns. We're not, you know, getting
20:22
together every Sunday for dinner like we used to.
20:25
And it's, it's just the nature of the beast.
20:27
So a lot of times when you're reliant on a, on a phone call
20:30
and a weekly phone call and your, your individual that
20:34
you're taking care of is like, oh, no, I'm good.
20:36
Everything's great. You know, sometimes just doing
20:40
that visit, you're like, oh, wow.
20:42
Like I, I see so many things that, you know, haven't been
20:46
taken care of for a while or, you know, there's some red flags
20:50
of, of things that we kind of need to, to address for folks.
20:55
What I so you're, you're primarily working.
21:00
I shouldn't say you're you're I would imagine that a lot of your
21:02
initial communication is with the children, right?
21:06
And they're. Situations, yes, but
21:08
interestingly enough, I have more and more clients more and
21:11
more actual folks that are starting to think about what
21:17
they want and and doing a lot. So this is a big generational
21:21
change also, right. This is a big change between
21:24
baby boomers and sort of our silent generation that we're
21:28
sort of moving out of right now. The older baby boomer generation
21:35
is to still conservative, still kind of quiet.
21:38
They don't share a lot of their information because I think
21:41
that's the other hard part is, you know, particularly, you
21:46
know, our World War Two generation, they were very quiet
21:50
about things. They didn't discuss medical,
21:51
they didn't discuss finances. They didn't, you know, none,
21:54
none of that. So, so we're moving into an
21:57
interesting time where, where we're working with a, a, you
22:00
know, a, a span of, of a generation that does talk about
22:04
those things, has sort of planned, has sort of thought
22:07
about it, sort of saw how their parents did things and don't
22:10
want to end up that way. So they are starting to think a
22:14
little bit earlier about, you know, what I want to do, how,
22:19
you know, how do I want this to look like for me?
22:21
I don't want to end up in a situation where I, I don't have
22:24
to say, or I can't really make the decision for myself because
22:27
I waited too long. So, so I do have, you know, I
22:31
see it changing, particularly since the pandemic.
22:34
You know, a lot of people are thinking more about how they
22:38
want to age and sort of what they want for themselves.
22:42
So that's been that's been interesting for sure.
22:46
Yeah, it's interesting about the the baby boomer generation, so
22:50
many things that are happening with them coming to retirement.
22:54
And, you know, and you know that we talked about it pretty often
22:58
as far as the number of businesses out there that don't
23:01
necessarily have a legacy plan. And it's the baby boomers that
23:05
own these businesses and they've been building them for 30-40
23:07
years. And now they're at retirement or
23:09
nearing retirement. And they're like, well, I guess
23:11
I'm just going to close up the doors.
23:13
And, you know, so similarly with with what you do with that elder
23:16
care, it's like, you know, they're they're coming to that
23:18
point. There's a lot of them, right?
23:21
And there's a. Yeah, like you know the the
23:25
statistic right now, so AARP, the we have 10,000 people
23:30
turning 65 every day between now and 2030.
23:35
Yes, Yeah. And it's the first, yeah, it's
23:38
the first time in history where we have more folks on the aging
23:41
side than we have on like the 18 to 25 year old side.
23:46
So if there's really there's an unbalance of, of you know,
23:51
what's happening and we already live in a time, you know, in our
23:56
area, well, it's actually system wide because so I belong to
24:00
national organization, Aging Life Care Association and there
24:03
are aging life care managers all over the country.
24:06
And we all have the same conversation in that there's not
24:10
enough resources for the number of people that are are getting
24:13
older, right? Nursing homes have weights,
24:18
assisted livings have, you know, six months to a year wait.
24:23
Independent living communities even, you know, active 55 plus a
24:27
lot of them are starting to develop wait lists.
24:30
So for a lot of our folks, if you're not putting a plan in
24:33
place early, you're kind of getting stuck.
24:36
For those folks who really want to just, you know, dig their
24:40
heels in and I want to be in my house feet and you know, I want
24:43
to go out feet first. Home care is a struggle.
24:47
You know, like home care agencies don't have the staff.
24:51
The staff really can pick and choose who they will and won't
24:55
work with. So it's been an interesting time
24:59
to provide services. I mean, when I first started my
25:01
career, it was completely the the other way around, you know,
25:05
like home care agencies were really looking for clients and,
25:08
and now home care agencies can't, they can't staff cases.
25:12
I mean, they might have somebody who's a 24/7, which, you know,
25:15
it's great, but if you don't have the staff to, to do it.
25:19
So, you know, again, when I'm working with families, it's also
25:23
very dependent on where they live, right?
25:25
Making a plan for somebody who lives out in the, you know, even
25:29
more rural areas of Saratoga County.
25:32
It's it's hard because people don't want to drive 2530 minutes
25:36
to get to work, you know, every day.
25:38
And then you throw in winter, you know, it becomes even a
25:42
bigger challenge. So it really is sort of helping.
25:45
And that's why, you know, kind of getting back to that home
25:47
visit question, why it's great for me to put eyes on, on where
25:52
people are because I can really help assess almost immediately
25:56
what kind of home care we're going to need to be looking at
26:01
if if that's where that person is at the point.
26:03
I mean, you know, I've had several people that their
26:06
driveways are a mile long and, you know, so, you know, how do
26:10
we get that clean? How do we get somebody in on a
26:13
bad day? And so it's just it's looking at
26:15
all those things that kind of. You really do look at
26:18
everything. Yes, 100%.
26:20
You know who gets the mail, who brings the paper up, right?
26:23
Like it's, it's, it's, it's looking at all those things.
26:27
How do we do the grocery shopping?
26:28
How do we pick up medications? How you know it's it's really
26:32
looking at the whole the whole system and how it works.
26:36
You must have a very long checklist for folks when you.
26:38
Yeah. Yeah.
26:39
And, and it changes, you know, it changes dependent, you know,
26:42
it changes all on how, on what somebody wants and what they
26:46
need. So, yeah, but it's fun because
26:48
it's ever changing, right? It's not the same thing every
26:50
day. So that's one of the things I
26:52
really love. Every situation is a little
26:54
unique, but so when when people want to when they start working
26:59
with you, whether it's the children are going to start the
27:01
process with you or the adults themselves are going to like,
27:04
what is what is it? What does it look like to like
27:07
they just call you up and say hey, come, come to the house or?
27:10
Yeah. So a lot of times it's a it's a
27:12
conversation on the phone, right.
27:14
So it's sort of just talking about what, what led them to
27:17
kind of even pick up the phone and call.
27:20
And a lot of times it will, you know, from the from the get go,
27:24
it might be a home visit. Sometimes it's meeting in the
27:27
office. Sometimes they think they need
27:30
to talk to me, but they really need to talk to the attorney
27:32
first, right. And that's where I love like our
27:34
team approach is, I'll say to folks like really at this point,
27:38
we sort of need to kind of understand where everything is
27:43
even financially right. So let's schedule a time where
27:46
you can meet with one of our attorneys.
27:47
Let's talk, you know, get your financial advisor or whoever's
27:50
dealing with your finances. And I'm not, so we can kind of
27:53
talk about that because again, you can't really formulate a
27:56
good plan for somebody if you don't know what the financial
27:59
system is, right? And then let's talk about what
28:04
that means, you know, moving forward.
28:07
And then a lot of times that's when I'll come in and be like,
28:09
OK, we have a clearer picture of really where everything is.
28:12
And let's talk about, you know, moving forward, what what that
28:15
can look like. You know, what the options are,
28:17
you know, from an affordability standpoint, but even from a
28:20
practical standpoint, right? Like somebody might be able to
28:23
afford all the care in the world, but if their home's not
28:28
accessible or it's not really set up, let's talk about what
28:33
that means and what we'd have to do or what are some other
28:36
options outside of that, Right? So.
28:40
So, So what would be some indicators that people in these
28:43
situations should say like, hey, I should call Kim at Herzog?
28:47
So we're right. We're actually entering into
28:50
that busy season where you know, families are starting to get
28:53
together, right? And you know, a lot of times,
28:56
like I said, you've been having ongoing phone calls and you
29:00
know, mom and dad seem great like because there's that
29:03
memorized conversation that you have that you're talking about
29:07
the grandkids or you're talking about vacation or whatever,
29:10
right? And so families come in and
29:16
there are definitely some telltale signs.
29:18
I think that a lot that you can look out for, right?
29:20
It's like I said earlier, it's things that are kind of stacked
29:24
up and not really gone through. Maybe there's some unpaid bills,
29:28
maybe. You know, I always say if you
29:31
can stay at the house, you should stay at the house.
29:33
Even though it may not be your typical plan, stay at the house
29:36
because you're really going to see how they move throughout the
29:38
day. And a lot of these situations,
29:42
folks can pull it together for a few hours, but it's that long
29:46
term, you know, it's over several days that you start to
29:49
see that there are some discrepancies.
29:51
You know, look at how they're taking their medications.
29:55
You know, don't ask, maybe just observe.
29:57
You know, that's what I tell a lot of families when they're,
30:00
when they're coming in after a period of time is just really
30:03
sit back, watch, observe. You know, it could be that
30:06
somebody maybe doesn't hear as well.
30:07
So maybe they're missing a lot of what's happening.
30:11
So they don't really understand maybe some of the instructions
30:13
that they were given at the doctor.
30:16
So there are just a lot of little things that we can pick
30:19
up on that we can really help facilitate without a lot of
30:24
disruption for folks, you know, cause a lot of times people are
30:29
like, Oh my God, it's falling apart.
30:31
We need, you know, like they can't live in their house
30:34
anymore. When it's as simple as like if
30:36
we got somebody in to fix a couple of nutritional meals a
30:39
week, If we had somebody kind of take over paying the bills or
30:43
getting them on auto pay, even, even if you know, somebody
30:48
doesn't want to hand over the checkbook.
30:50
Well, let's talk about how we can automate it and make it just
30:52
easier for you. Right?
30:54
Let's talk about driving because sometimes driving, but driving
30:58
is the key to independence for a lot of folks.
31:00
So it's really understanding, you know, what does that mean
31:04
when we start having that driving conversation?
31:06
But also what does it mean if that individual really shouldn't
31:10
be on the road? And by being with somebody too
31:13
for longer periods of time, you can kind of see where from a
31:17
cognition standpoint where they may be, you know, is there, do
31:21
you start seeing, hearing some repeated stories, some repeated
31:25
things that are happening? You may not necessarily get that
31:28
on a phone call, on a short 10 minute phone call right when
31:32
you're just checking in. But by being with them, you
31:35
know, 2 1/2 hours over dinner, you might hear the same thing a
31:39
couple times. So that's sort of starting to,
31:43
you know, with some families kind of resonate that we might
31:46
have a bigger issue happening here.
31:49
So there are lots of things that that we can kind of look at and
31:54
usually like right after holidays, it's quiet because
31:57
people are sort of having like, Oh my gosh, what do I do?
32:01
Right. And then the phone starts to
32:03
ring because, you know, they either Googled, you know, elder
32:08
care, or they might know enough to, to ask about a care manager.
32:14
And, and then that's usually when things get busy.
32:17
We also do a lot of education out in the community.
32:21
So, you know, we're at libraries, we're at the school
32:24
systems for the continuing Ed, senior centers, talking to
32:29
people because sort of the last thing we want is for people to
32:33
call us in crisis because that's generally the worst time to be
32:36
having these conversations, right?
32:40
So it it is there is it? Is there ever a time that's too
32:43
soon to start having those conversations?
32:45
Never. I love having conversations with
32:48
people where I just say you guys are on a really good path.
32:51
These are some of the things you should be thinking about and
32:53
these are some of the conversations you should be
32:55
having. One of the conversations I love
32:59
most having with people that are end of life conversations too.
33:04
And that's you don't have to have those.
33:06
You know, I, I just did a Hospice and palliative care
33:09
panel and one of my favorite quotes is the worst time to talk
33:13
about end of life. Is it end of life?
33:16
You know, and when you go to an estate planning firm, you're
33:20
doing the healthcare proxy, the power of attorney.
33:22
Sometimes a living will like you're not really getting into
33:27
the weeds about things. And so I love talking to people
33:31
about what your wishes really are and how do you want to live
33:36
and at what point is a line need to be drawn in the sand, You
33:41
know, and let's share with your folks, you know, because now we
33:45
need to have the conversation about, you know, with the person
33:48
that you've named is your healthcare proxy.
33:49
And it's really helping people understand what all of that
33:52
means. And, you know, a lot of times we
33:54
get like family members, even as a healthcare proxy, they'll say,
33:59
well, can legal action be brought against me if I decide
34:03
not to continue life, right? Well, no, because that's what
34:06
your, your, your individual really wanted.
34:09
And you're advocating for, for their wishes, you know, sort of
34:11
thing. So a lot of times it's just
34:13
dispelling a lot of the myths that people have and, and hold.
34:18
And you know, I've got folks who, you know, physicians are
34:25
inundated and they're over. You know, they're spending 3
34:29
minutes with people, sometimes 4 minutes.
34:30
They can't possibly get into these in depth conversations.
34:35
It's it's doing in general, like let's check in.
34:37
It's like, OK, here's the script that's going to treat whatever
34:40
this new condition or, or whatever is, you know, I'll see
34:43
you in three or four months and out the door you go.
34:45
And, you know, having a care manager is, it's really somebody
34:50
who can sit down and talk about what those goals of aging are
34:53
and, and goals for death and, and all of those kinds of
34:57
things. And it's really bringing it all
34:59
together and, and kind of helping advocate for that
35:02
person's, you know, individual choice in their wish.
35:04
And, and a lot of those topics for people are, are, are taboo,
35:09
but they're really important because the worst time to try to
35:11
figure out what mom or dad wanted is sitting around the
35:15
table when somebody's in the hospital and you're being forced
35:18
to have to make that decision for somebody.
35:22
Yeah, definitely sounds I well in in this conversation and the
35:26
and the conversations I've had with Phil, it sounds like the
35:28
more proactive you can be about all this stuff, the better.
35:31
I, I always tell families like when, when my husband and I
35:35
first did our estate planning way back when our daughter was
35:38
younger, you do a lot at that point because you're talking
35:41
about who's going to be guardian, you know, how a trust
35:45
will be managed with life. And, you know, so there's a lot
35:47
that happens. And so we got to planning our
35:50
own individual documents and we were talking about like our
35:53
healthcare proxy and our living will.
35:55
And so I was being very specific at that point about like, I'm in
35:58
a car accident and I show up at the hospital and, you know,
36:01
there's not going to be a lot of hope or whatever, just pull
36:03
everything. And I slowly watched my husband
36:06
really withdraw from the conversation.
36:08
And, you know, being a social worker, of course, I'm picking
36:11
up on some of these non verbal kinds of signals he's setting
36:15
out. And I, I looked over and I said,
36:17
are, are you OK? And, you know, he just really
36:23
sat for a minute and he was like, I don't think I can do
36:26
this. And I like, was like, oh, what,
36:29
what are you talking about, 'cause I mean, we were talking
36:31
about a lot that day, right? And I was like, do what?
36:34
And he said, I don't think I could be the one to kill you.
36:38
Well, that was a, a, a, a big wake up for me, right?
36:41
Because I just assumed he was going to, he was going to be my
36:44
person. But in, you know, when we
36:47
started getting into the weeds of talking about what a do not
36:50
resuscitate is and all of the kind of scenarios, like he was
36:54
really struggling with whether or not he would be able to, to
36:58
follow through on my wish. And so at that point, I was
37:01
like, well, then I guess you can't be my healthcare proxy,
37:04
which, you know, was shattering. Now, you know, 25 years later, I
37:08
say to people like he'd have no problem pulling the plug, right?
37:15
But things are different, all right?
37:16
We have a, we have a different understanding of how things work
37:19
and, and all that. But it, it, so for me and it, a
37:23
lot of it had to do with his upbringing, right?
37:25
Like you, you have to look at that cultural piece of it.
37:29
You have to look at the spiritual aspect of it, you
37:31
know, So again, that's sort of one of the things that I bring,
37:35
bring to it. I kind of like leave everything
37:37
that I have a personal opinion about at the door and really
37:41
want to know what's important to that individual so that we can
37:44
really try to advocate for that. You know, if somebody wants all
37:47
the bells and whistles, OK, then let's talk about what that's
37:49
going to look like for you and, and really put that plan in
37:52
place for them. And to Phil's point, like really
37:56
having that conversation is never too early regardless.
37:59
So I love it when people are really just starting to kind of
38:02
think about it. We might not see them for five
38:03
years, but at least we know we've planted a seed and they
38:06
kind of know what what where they can go and kind of what
38:12
questions they can start asking, you know, which is really cool.
38:16
It's a really cool thing to be able to do.
38:18
Yeah, well, and it's needed because I, you know, it's, you
38:21
know, that whole, it's funny because you said in the
38:23
beginning of the show, right, people hear estate planning and
38:25
they automatically think about this, right.
38:28
And, and just I what I've been educated on because of you,
38:31
because of Phil, there's just so much more to it about what you,
38:34
things you don't even think about and like the power of
38:37
attorney for your kid going away to College in case something
38:40
happens that, you know, like, I never even thought about that.
38:42
That was never even something I would think that you would need
38:44
to worry about, right? But there is, there is so much
38:48
to it and, you know, appreciate what you guys are doing and, and
38:52
education. And, and again, I just think
38:53
it's such a cool thing that you're part of the equation in
38:57
this process and what a differentiator it is for Herzog
39:00
and for the firm and what it does for your clients.
39:02
I think it's amazing so. Yeah, thank you.
39:04
I, I love it too. Like it's, it's, it's a, it's
39:07
sort of a perfect marriage. And I love the opportunity to be
39:11
able to, to really talk to people in a way, you know,
39:14
'cause they're here. So it's on their mind, you know?
39:16
And a lot of times it's, it's, it's harder to have those
39:20
conversations when they're more forced, you know, and in some of
39:22
the other environments I've been in, it's because they've had to,
39:25
It's not because, oh, I, oh, you're right.
39:28
I really should start thinking about this kind of thing, you
39:31
know? So if if people want to learn
39:34
more about Herzog, more about you, about how you work with
39:37
people, where do they find you guys?
39:39
Yeah, So easy enough is the web, right?
39:43
We have a website that's www.herzoglaw.com.
39:47
That's number one. You can always call our office
39:50
and ask for a consultation. All of our initial consultations
39:55
are at no charge, which I think is really nice.
39:58
And in lots of circumstances we're meeting with people
40:00
repeatedly until they kind of really understand or know what
40:05
direction they need to go. So that's another thing that I
40:08
just I love about all of us is it's just kind of low pressure.
40:11
We want people to have the information, kind of understand.
40:15
We have a newsletter that I feel like is really informative.
40:18
So if you go to our website, you can sign up for our newsletter
40:21
by just putting in your name and e-mail address.
40:25
You know, again, we do a lot of. Education events, so kind of
40:30
keeping an eye on our web page to look at where we are and
40:34
maybe there will be some educational information that
40:37
might spark an interest for you that you want to look.
40:39
And most of what we offer too is we have pre recorded webinars
40:43
too on our website. So a lot of times we just say to
40:45
folks like, hey go check out one of our webinars and it might
40:48
answer some questions or it might lead into the the bigger
40:52
conversation you need to have with us so.
40:56
Amazing. Well, thank you so much for
40:57
coming on the show and spending some time with me and our
40:59
listeners. Yeah, it was great.
41:01
I really appreciate you having having me on.
41:04
Absolutely, absolutely anytime and of course, thanks everybody
41:07
for listening. Of course, you can find out more
41:09
information on our website buying local dot US and you can
41:12
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41:25
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41:27
Thanks so much for listening.