Latest / Curiously Guided Podcast / Ep.35 | Exploring the Fine Line Between Marketing & Manipulation with Brand Designer, Alex Cottles

Transcript

Ep.35 | Exploring the Fine Line Between Marketing & Manipulation with Brand Designer, Alex Cottles · Curiously Guided Podcast

• 0:07
  SPEAKER_02: Okay, welcome back to the Curiously Guided Podcast, the place for intuitive business owners.
• 0:13
  SPEAKER_02: This week we are interviewing a brand designer and strategist that I have always admired from afar.
• 0:20
  SPEAKER_02: His name is Alex Cottles.
• 0:22
  SPEAKER_02: And today we had the pleasure of um, or we have the pleasure of having him on as a guest that we got to interview.
• 0:29
  SPEAKER_02: Uh, Alex is someone that I've admired in the online design space for years, honestly.
• 0:36
  SPEAKER_02: Um, as most of you know, I got my start in the branding and web design world, and I actually found Alex weirdly from Pinterest.
• 0:45
  SPEAKER_02: He had um he makes all these really beautiful typefaces and custom font faces.
• 0:50
  SPEAKER_02: And I saw one on Pinterest and I liked like the thumbnail graphic he had made for it.
• 0:56
  SPEAKER_02: So I stalked that over to Creative Market, and then I found his studio and him.
• 1:01
  SPEAKER_02: His studio is the routine creative um from that.
• 1:06
  SPEAKER_02: And he had worked on a lot of um brands that I really admired at the time, some YouTubers I was a really big fan of.
• 1:11
  SPEAKER_02: And so I um I just really appreciated his style and his approach.
• 1:16
  SPEAKER_02: Um, I think that his talent level is top-notch.
• 1:20
  SPEAKER_02: Uh, I couldn't, I wouldn't recommend.
• 1:22
  SPEAKER_02: I he would be the first person to recommend when it comes to my mind of um just an insanely talented branding designer.
• 1:28
  SPEAKER_02: Um and I really I um I enjoyed this opportunity.
• 1:34
  SPEAKER_02: So I have followed him for years.
• 1:36
  SPEAKER_02: And the reason we um the spark of curiosity that led to this episode was Alex shared a um what originally was a series of Instagram stories.
• 1:47
  SPEAKER_02: Um, he has now repurposed those stories into a highlight reel on his page at The Routine Creative, and it's called Two Sense.
• 1:56
  SPEAKER_02: And in this um series, Alex really goes through some of the things that he's noticed have become trends in the online space in particular, particularly when it comes to um the coursing community, the coursing, the coach and coursing community and people with big group programs, and how just the narrative around how we should all be investing in ourselves and how to be investing and growing.
• 2:25
  SPEAKER_02: And um, Alex really put together some poignant thoughts around um some things that send up red flags for him when he's thinking about um spending money in the online space.
• 2:37
  SPEAKER_02: And so uh I'm really proud of this episode because it, you know, I saw this two cents reel and I knew I knew that Alex hundreds when Alex shared this, hundreds, if not thousands of people now have reached out to him.
• 2:50
  SPEAKER_02: And I I know that this struck it certainly struck a nerve with me to see the two cents reel.
• 2:56
  SPEAKER_02: And I know it struck a nerve with a lot of people.
• 2:58
  SPEAKER_02: So I think that this kind of concept is something that we can all resonate with and is almost an undercurrent that's going on in our industry.
• 3:06
  SPEAKER_02: And I'm proud that we had a conversation around it.
• 3:09
  SPEAKER_02: Um, you know, the our intention with this episode is not to throw shade at anybody if you've done any of these things or if your friend has, like that's great.
• 3:19
  SPEAKER_02: We all have.
• 3:20
  SPEAKER_02: Um, I, you know, it's funny when we got on with Alex, he told us right away, well, I may not agree with everything you guys think.
• 3:28
  SPEAKER_02: And we said the same thing to him.
• 3:29
  SPEAKER_02: You know, I don't agree with everything in the real 100%, but it was thought-provoking, and I do agree with a lot of it.
• 3:36
  SPEAKER_02: And I think the the response to it um is particularly interesting for me.
• 3:41
  SPEAKER_02: I think there's some really good, juicy stuff here.
• 3:44
  SPEAKER_02: So I reached out to Alex and I asked him if he'd be willing to come on the podcast and kind of help us have a almost a buyer's beware episode as we navigate the online course industry and the online marketing industry.
• 3:59
  SPEAKER_02: Um what are some things that we can do to empower ourselves to make better decisions instead of getting manipulated and kind of swept up in the often tricky and psychological um tactics that people can use when it comes to online sales and marketing.
• 4:16
  SPEAKER_02: So I love this episode.
• 4:17
  SPEAKER_02: I I my goal for the podcast is that it's always a place for us to have really open, thought-provoking conversations, even if they are perhaps a little activating or triggering.
• 4:26
  SPEAKER_02: So just know if you hear something in this or if in the real something kind of gets you going.
• 4:31
  SPEAKER_02: Um, our intention isn't really to throw shade in any way or to shame in any way, you know, like it just any one of these things on their own, it's fine.
• 4:40
  SPEAKER_02: You know, it's all about context and story, but these are some of the things that we've noticed that we're just kind of sharing our own um, I call this red lights and green flags, but our own parameters of what we look for when we're looking for um how to how to invest in a new coach or in a new program or whatever it is as we're um sifting through the noisy world that's out there.
• 5:03
  SPEAKER_02: You know, my big takeaway from this episode is really um be obviously be skeptical about numbers.
• 5:12
  SPEAKER_02: That's something we talk about a lot here, but people's sales pages and the testimonials, it's all a highlight reel.
• 5:18
  SPEAKER_02: A lot of times those numbers can be manipulated, and we share some examples about that in the episode.
• 5:23
  SPEAKER_02: Um, really take everything you see with a grain of salt.
• 5:28
  SPEAKER_02: I think it's important.
• 5:29
  SPEAKER_02: And and I share uh what I'm looking for these days is someone that is really interested in shining their zone of genius on me as an individual and helping me figure out how to make their methods work for me, as opposed to what I think the common practice is some guru up on guru mountain that has this technique that will make me millions.
• 5:52
  SPEAKER_02: And if I just follow their steps X, you know, A to Z, then I can have the same results they had.
• 5:58
  SPEAKER_02: We know that that kind of like cookie cutter rinse and repeat process doesn't work because it's not tailored to us as individuals.
• 6:05
  SPEAKER_02: So um just kind of looking for the coach that is more about like teaching me to fish as opposed to um handing me a handing me a fish is uh probably my biggest takeaway and just filter that I'll use from here on out as I'm um making decisions on how to spend in my business.
• 6:24
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and I just I just like how you said guru mountain and I kind of just want to keep that going because that's fucking hilarious.
• 6:32
  SPEAKER_01: Um I'm like writing it down.
• 6:34
  SPEAKER_02: We'll have Melinda Livsey from the brand strategy boot camp on here.
• 6:38
  SPEAKER_02: Her and I talk a lot about a lot of it, a lot of this stuff out there, it's like I'm this smartest person in my kingdom.
• 6:46
  SPEAKER_02: And even when you're in these programs and you get these frameworks, and maybe you'll have questions about things and you'll say, Hey, this didn't quite work for me.
• 6:53
  SPEAKER_02: I feel like there's some community spaces where you're not allowed to question it.
• 6:57
  SPEAKER_02: You know, you're not allowed to say anything about gurus framework because they are guru.
• 7:01
  SPEAKER_02: And I'm looking for more of um Melinda calls it like a constellation style, but we know more of this community.
• 7:08
  SPEAKER_02: We're all in this together, we all lift each other up, we can all shine bright, like with each other.
• 7:12
  SPEAKER_02: Kind of, I don't know.
• 7:13
  SPEAKER_02: I just like I'm looking for a little humility, maybe a little more these.
• 7:17
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah, for sure.
• 7:19
  SPEAKER_01: I definitely agree.
• 7:20
  SPEAKER_01: I it's the specific phrase of guru mountain that I just see it on t-shirts, like get off the guru mountain.
• 7:27
  SPEAKER_01: And I'm like, Yeah, I just I love that phrase here.
• 7:32
  SPEAKER_01: Um, okay, so before we get too deep into the episode, I did just want to mention.
• 7:37
  SPEAKER_01: So you guys had a little bit of context here.
• 7:40
  SPEAKER_01: If you wanted to go over to Alex's Instagram and check out the stories, like in the story highlights that he mentioned, because we are gonna, that's kind of where this conversation starts.
• 7:52
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and he'll dive into the back end story of that.
• 7:54
  SPEAKER_01: But you can go to the routine creative on Instagram, that's his handle.
• 7:59
  SPEAKER_01: And the highlight that we're talking about, he currently I'm literally staring at it right now.
• 8:04
  SPEAKER_01: He has it labeled two cents.
• 8:06
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, so you can go ahead and kind of read through that.
• 8:09
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but yeah, I was re-listening to this podcast episode in in order to create this intro.
• 8:16
  SPEAKER_01: And honestly, after we stopped recording, I was like, oh shit, did we go too far?
• 8:22
  SPEAKER_01: Did we talk too much about maybe possible controversial things?
• 8:27
  SPEAKER_01: I was nervous, you know what I mean?
• 8:29
  SPEAKER_01: Like putting our voice, our perspectives, our opinions out there.
• 8:32
  SPEAKER_01: And I was just like, did we go too far?
• 8:34
  SPEAKER_01: And then I listened back to this episode.
• 8:36
  SPEAKER_01: I think it's been like a month now since we recorded it.
• 8:39
  SPEAKER_01: And I'm coming back with the perspective of like, I think this is one of our most compelling episodes yet.
• 8:45
  SPEAKER_01: Like how the where the conversation went and how open each of us were, and how unapologetic, but also grounded we approached the thing, like we we really came from curiosity, honestly.
• 9:04
  SPEAKER_01: And like we were like, okay, well, I see it like this, and then we kind of ping-ponged off of each other.
• 9:08
  SPEAKER_01: It was it was a really great way to verbalize, to rationalize these topics that people tend to not really talk about in the online business space.
• 9:20
  SPEAKER_01: And honestly, like I think the message for this whole thing is like we have to find out what is in integrity for us because it's up to us to figure that out for ourselves.
• 9:32
  SPEAKER_01: Even listening to this, listening to my perspective, Shay's perspective, Alex's perspective.
• 9:36
  SPEAKER_01: Like Alex says, like, we are like, we are not the authority in what is in integrity for you.
• 9:43
  SPEAKER_01: Like it's up to you to take personal responsibility for being the business owner, but also the consumer coming from the consumer perspective.
• 9:53
  SPEAKER_01: And like, as the consumer, go through and make your own red flags and green flags.
• 9:59
  SPEAKER_01: What is a green light for you when you are purchasing something?
• 10:02
  SPEAKER_01: What is a red flag for you?
• 10:03
  SPEAKER_01: Where you're like, yeah, I don't really like that.
• 10:05
  SPEAKER_01: And you'll get a little taste of like our perspective and just like what we find are green flags and red flags throughout the episode.
• 10:11
  SPEAKER_01: But yeah, I think that this conversation is just really needed and it's only the beginning.
• 10:18
  SPEAKER_01: So just know that, like, even after this episode releases, obviously, this can't be our all-encompassing thoughts on like all of these different topics that we went through.
• 10:29
  SPEAKER_01: Because like, we could probably create a full episode on each one numerous times.
• 10:33
  SPEAKER_01: Because as I kind of say in the episode, like it all needs context.
• 10:37
  SPEAKER_01: These answers, these situations, these things, they are not black and white.
• 10:41
  SPEAKER_01: They aren't.
• 10:42
  SPEAKER_01: And like we talk about, you know, urgencies and like countdown timers and like using sales page formulas.
• 10:47
  SPEAKER_01: And like when you hear that, that doesn't mean that we think all countdown timers are trash and like sales page formulas are the bane of existence.
• 10:56
  SPEAKER_02: Like, no, it is there is so much person for using one.
• 11:00
  SPEAKER_02: Like, yes, right.
• 11:01
  SPEAKER_01: No, no, we just wanted to have a space to have the conversation to have a starting point for reflection for us to again take personal responsibility as the business owner and as the consumer.
• 11:16
  SPEAKER_01: But I don't want to give away too much because honestly, this episode is really fucking compelling.
• 11:21
  SPEAKER_01: I just, yeah, I'm I'm really, really grateful for the conversation that we had.
• 11:26
  SPEAKER_01: Um, all right.
• 11:27
  SPEAKER_01: So let me just read Alex's bio and then we'll just like lead you guys into the episode.
• 11:31
  SPEAKER_01: So Alex is the founder of the Routine Creative, your one-stop brand shop.
• 11:37
  SPEAKER_01: He has helped hundreds of small business owners take their business from blah and boring to beautiful and bragworthy.
• 11:45
  SPEAKER_01: His primary goal, other than making you look oh so good, is to foster long-term partnerships with friendly clients who value a tailored branding experience.
• 11:56
  SPEAKER_01: He's based in Dallas, Texas, where he lives with his husband and two cats.
• 12:02
  SPEAKER_01: So without further ado, let's just get into the episode.
• 12:06
  SPEAKER_02: Okay, Alex, welcome.
• 12:07
  SPEAKER_02: We're so excited to have you for this episode of the podcast.
• 12:11
  SPEAKER_02: Um, I the topic that we're talking about today, I feel like we need to have a million caveats about, you know, obviously we are all fans of the online world.
• 12:22
  SPEAKER_02: We are all friends with people in the online world.
• 12:24
  SPEAKER_02: We all have invested in courses before.
• 12:26
  SPEAKER_02: We plan on taking more courses.
• 12:28
  SPEAKER_02: We may offer courses in the future.
• 12:30
  SPEAKER_02: Um, our goal with today's episode is to kind of help us for those of us that are in the online business world, it can feel like the wild, wild west, which is a term that Mariah and I have used quite a bit on the podcast.
• 12:42
  SPEAKER_02: And our goal is to kind of help us in navigating that landscape.
• 12:47
  SPEAKER_02: You know, there's a lot out there when it comes to how you can quote unquote invest in your business.
• 12:53
  SPEAKER_02: And a lot of times that looks like maybe buying a course or investing in a mentor or a new coaching program or whatever.
• 13:00
  SPEAKER_02: And um I think it's really important that we all just become aware of the industry and what it's really evolved into, which is a truly like multi-billion dollar industry that is very profitable and a lot of money is being made.
• 13:12
  SPEAKER_02: And then being aware of the impact that's having on us as like business owners and practitioners, and just being, I'm hoping that we can all walk away with just um more knowledge and more awareness with how to make more informed decisions in the future and kind of avoid getting burned, if you will.
• 13:30
  SPEAKER_02: You know, we're gonna share some stories today of what we've heard that goes on out there in the world.
• 13:34
  SPEAKER_02: So um, you know, before I give it all away, Alex, um, we thought would have just be the perfect person to talk to about this, just so you guys know we're all coming at this from a consumer's perspective.
• 13:46
  SPEAKER_02: We're online business owners operating in this space, thinking about making investments, potentially have been burned in the past.
• 13:53
  SPEAKER_02: Um, Alex shared, um, I think it started as kind of like a story on Instagram.
• 13:57
  SPEAKER_02: Is that right, Alex?
• 13:59
  SPEAKER_02: Kind of around um, you know, how what's happened in the industry, how we can be more aware.
• 14:05
  SPEAKER_02: And then that story kind of grew and grew and went a little viral and has struck a nerve with hundreds, if not more, people.
• 14:13
  SPEAKER_02: So, Alex, would you get us started with um what what sparks the inspiration to post in the first place?
• 14:20
  SPEAKER_02: And then like what has it turned into and just kind of take us into like the origin story of all of this?
• 14:26
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah.
• 14:27
  SPEAKER_00: Well, thanks for having me, first of all.
• 14:29
  SPEAKER_00: Um the the origin story is just that of someone who runs an online business.
• 14:34
  SPEAKER_00: I've been freelancing since 2013, and I have officially been full-time in my graphic design business since 2016.
• 14:42
  SPEAKER_00: So it gives an interesting perspective on where online business was then and where it is now, and just um being able to see it evolve and change into this thing that feels so icky and gross to me.
• 14:58
  SPEAKER_00: Um and a lot of that includes my friends in the industry of branding and graphic design that I've made, seeing them go down this route of only being teachers now and only being course creators and their entire business model becoming something other than design, which is what they were originally passionate about and what they're teaching on and saying they're passionate about.
• 15:23
  SPEAKER_00: Um, so that's that's kind of one piece of it that really sparked that conversation.
• 15:28
  SPEAKER_00: And then, of course, there's the other side of it, being that I've been in the industry for that long too, seeing newcomers come in, learn something through a course or something of that nature, and turning around and teaching it right away as if they've mastered it or know enough about it to really educate someone on it.
• 15:45
  SPEAKER_00: So those are the two things that I've seen so much that I just really felt inclined to talk about it.
• 15:51
  SPEAKER_00: But also, I have my own perspective as someone who felt pressured to jump into being a course creator or um a coach of some kind.
• 15:59
  SPEAKER_00: So I started my own mentorship called Brand Mentor that I did for a while.
• 16:03
  SPEAKER_00: I think it was about two and a half years that I did it.
• 16:06
  SPEAKER_00: And uh that was a membership platform that I had for young designers getting started.
• 16:10
  SPEAKER_00: Um, so that gave me interesting perspective as well.
• 16:13
  SPEAKER_00: And so, as someone that's like trying to run the design side of my business and run a mentorship at the same time and how to balance the marketing between the two, like which one really matters, which one has the most impact, which one do I actually care about?
• 16:25
  SPEAKER_00: Those are all the things, those those are my you know perspectives that I brought to the table.
• 16:30
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and then just one day, I don't know, I really felt um I was telling you guys before we hit record that I'm not like super woo-woo or spiritual or intuitive in in that way necessarily, but it was weird because I just woke up one day and I did truly feel called to just talk about it.
• 16:48
  SPEAKER_00: Because maybe it was because of all the marketing I was seeing and all the ads for courses, most likely.
• 16:53
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but I was just like, you know what, I'm tired of this.
• 16:56
  SPEAKER_00: I I know conversations were happening behind closed doors, um, you know, basically talking shit about how people are launching their courses and what's really going on, you know, are they really making that kind of money that they're saying they're making those types of things?
• 17:11
  SPEAKER_00: So I was like, you know what?
• 17:12
  SPEAKER_00: I'm just gonna open up a dialogue on this and just give my perspective.
• 17:15
  SPEAKER_00: Because I at that point had stopped my membership for about a year, I think, since I've had it, and I had nothing to lose really in that regard.
• 17:24
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but I feel like I have so much to gain by opening this conversation because I truly, my motivation is I hate the way my industry where my industry is going.
• 17:35
  SPEAKER_00: Like I hate to see this happen.
• 17:38
  SPEAKER_00: Um, so yeah, that's really what sparked the conversation.
• 17:41
  SPEAKER_00: I knew it was going to resonate because, like I said, I was already having some of those conversations behind closed doors, but I had no idea the amount of stories that were gonna hit my TMs and like also just things I had never thought about.
• 17:55
  SPEAKER_00: Like people were bringing up points that you know I had no um personal experience with.
• 18:02
  SPEAKER_00: Um but yeah, it really just gave me even more fresh perspective on that.
• 18:08
  SPEAKER_00: Um and since then it's led to so not only have I been like calling out course creation and how to market your business ethically, and you know, kind of some red flags for young designers or young entrepreneurs looking to invest, like what to look for, uh, for red flags.
• 18:25
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but also now the conversation is kind of led into something else I'm passionate about talking about more recently, which is these online uh summits, like these digital summits that have tons and tons of speakers.
• 18:37
  SPEAKER_00: And the fact that the speakers, at least in the graphic design world, I can't speak broadly, but they don't typically get paid for their education or their speaking.
• 18:45
  SPEAKER_00: Uh they're usually paid through uh affiliate commissions, which it's actually illegal to make an affiliate commission through an email blast or email marketing without um making that clear that you're getting paid in that way.
• 19:00
  SPEAKER_00: Um but not only that, but if you're as if you're uh profiting on your summit as the summit uh creator or moderator, whatever you would call that, um they they're basically making profit of off the backs of all these you know veteran designers.
• 19:19
  SPEAKER_00: Um and a lot of them don't have a big enough platform or email marketing funnels or anything set up to really profit off of a commission-based uh approach.
• 19:29
  SPEAKER_00: So that's that that's just another conversation that it's led to in talking about all this course stuff.
• 19:34
  SPEAKER_00: So so much to you know unpack and talk about, but that's sort of what what sparked all that.
• 19:40
  SPEAKER_01: Holy shit.
• 19:41
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I feel like there's so many different directions we can go into.
• 19:44
  SPEAKER_01: I feel like I I have so many perspectives in terms of like so many different pieces of this.
• 19:50
  SPEAKER_01: This is this is really this is fascinating.
• 19:52
  SPEAKER_01: Um, can you give us a little bit more context in terms of like what the story was or like what the message was that you shared on Instagram?
• 20:01
  SPEAKER_01: And then just like how did people react?
• 20:04
  SPEAKER_01: Like I know uh you were definitely getting some messages back, and it might from my knowledge, it was like hundreds of people messaging you back and just like sharing their story.
• 20:15
  SPEAKER_01: Can you just give us some context in terms of like what was shared?
• 20:19
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, absolutely.
• 20:20
  SPEAKER_00: So basically, I just hopped on my Instagram story one day, and I didn't even do it through video because um I wanted to make sure I was like being very intentional with what I was saying.
• 20:30
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and even still, obviously, it's not perfect the way I put it, but um, I wanted to make it clear that I had something to say, and I was just like, look, this is what I'm seeing.
• 20:42
  SPEAKER_00: I'm seeing these people that are friends of mine that have been in the industry for a long time abandoning uh their uh passion for design in order to teach courses.
• 20:58
  SPEAKER_00: Um, so that was one part of the message.
• 20:59
  SPEAKER_00: The other part of the message was uh obviously people taking a course and repurposing it into their own course, or just turning around and teaching it as if they know it.
• 21:11
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but another part of the message, and a really important part of the message that I shared was this um uh marketing tactic that's just uh become a thing, which is like 10k months, six figure years, like all these monetary promises that are being made in these uh marketing uh sales pages and such.
• 21:32
  SPEAKER_01: Without any fucking contacts.
• 21:34
  SPEAKER_01: Without any fucking contacts, yeah.
• 21:36
  SPEAKER_00: And half of the and and calling out the fact that you know, the majority of the time, if people are using those types of sales tactics, there's a there's a you know asterisk at the bottom in the fine print that says we're not responsible for your success.
• 21:49
  SPEAKER_00: Or if they do have some kind of money back guarantee, it usually you have to show that you've done the work.
• 21:54
  SPEAKER_00: And um, in my experience, because I've actually tried to do that myself from a course that I didn't get.
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_00: anything from and also I've heard of other people doing this as well.
• 22:04
  SPEAKER_00: It's really hard to get your money back.
• 22:06
  SPEAKER_00: Like you, it's a fighting and uphill battle.
• 22:08
  SPEAKER_00: It's almost like you have to take on, you know, take time away from your job to really fight for that money back if you get it back at all.
• 22:16
  SPEAKER_00: Um and the reason for that is because they're usually like, oh well, look at all these successful students I've had.
• 22:22
  SPEAKER_02: That's a that's a you problem, not a it's not my that's what I was popping up for me is like, and you're kind of treated like the the villain or the failure in the process, you know, and it's a small feel like one.
• 22:33
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 22:33
  SPEAKER_02: You feel like one.
• 22:34
  SPEAKER_02: I felt scared to express disapproval and ask for a return because it is a small world and this person is friends with a lot of people that I'm friends with or in my network and and I don't it worked for everybody else must be something wrong with me.
• 22:48
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 22:48
  SPEAKER_02: That's definitely the and there's no way to read independent reviews about most of this stuff.
• 22:53
  SPEAKER_02: It's not like Amazon or even like bigger things where you can Google it and kind of get some truly independent verified reflections.
• 23:02
  SPEAKER_02: It's not possible.
• 23:04
  SPEAKER_02: It's really hard.
• 23:05
  SPEAKER_02: And so it's kind of a shitty spot to be in and they don't make you feel great going through it.
• 23:10
  SPEAKER_02: So I feel like there's this like mind fuck element as well going on at least with me.
• 23:16
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah yeah I mean and that and that's a that's a true tactic.
• 23:19
  SPEAKER_00: It's not like it's on accident.
• 23:21
  SPEAKER_00: And this is all it's a big can of worms but basically all of these marketing tactics are a trickle down from this like coaching guru entrepreneur world and that's where a lot of the people that are heavy hitters right now in course creation, at least in the online business space, that's who they're learning from.
• 23:42
  SPEAKER_00: And there's just so many like moral and ethical issues in the way that people are marketing.
• 23:48
  SPEAKER_00: And it it's just so crazy to see it trickle down to even like the smallest of entrepreneurs that are literally just getting started and thinking that I'm an expert all of a sudden and I have something to teach.
• 23:59
  SPEAKER_00: Like this one of my least favorite terms is everyone has something to teach or everyone has knowledge to share.
• 24:07
  SPEAKER_00: And though that's true obviously it doesn't mean you should first of all just because you can do something doesn't mean you should or that you're ready.
• 24:14
  SPEAKER_00: And two it doesn't mean you have to monetize that like this idea that you should make that a part of your business model if not your entire business model to have a course is silly to me because we wouldn't accept that in at university we wouldn't accept that for people teaching our children but we accept it for some reason in the online business space.
• 24:36
  SPEAKER_00: And the reason is because like you said just with testimonials but also with uh vetting our teacher our educators there's it is the wild, wild west it is like there's no regulation.
• 24:48
  SPEAKER_00: It's something that we're and that's why I want the conversation to happen is because we have to self-regulate and if no one's speaking up about it and I know I'm not the only one speaking on it but um yeah just anyone that is willing to open up and be honest about this is good because it is an area that needs a lot of calling out and a lot of regulation not in a cancel culture kind of way not in a calling out someone specifically but more of like we have the power to be the change we want to see as corny as that sounds um but to really shape the industry um and and not let it keep going down this road that it's headed down.
• 25:22
  SPEAKER_02: 100% and I think one thing I I've thought quite a bit about do I agree that you have to you know there's the 10,000 hours perspective to be an expert or 2000 hours I've seen the number be a million different numbers and and I I I'm like I don't necessarily agree because I've certainly learned from people that weren't all the way there.
• 25:44
  SPEAKER_02: But I think what's missing is people representing themselves with integrity.
• 25:49
  SPEAKER_02: So being honest hey I'm not hey I'm new at this hey I'm a year in you know like and here's where I am and maybe offering it for free at the beginning you know and not trying to immediately jump to I see that I see somebody doing that and you skip that they've been at it for 10 years, you know, and they kind of like skip all these steps and they just go there and I have noticed I feel like a lack of accurate representation maybe you know it's like you are responsible for just portraying yourself honestly you know like where are you at?
• 26:24
  SPEAKER_02: And I I do I've certainly like I really struggle with this topic because like I've gotten so much out of courses and communities that I've invested in but at the same time I've gotten really burned and I've had friends get really burned and I've heard horror stories.
• 26:39
  SPEAKER_02: And so it's like there is good out there and there's wonderful stuff and and if you've got something to share share it.
• 26:45
  SPEAKER_02: And if you're being invited to share don't don't feel like we are telling we I don't want this message to be like silence yourself.
• 26:52
  SPEAKER_02: I mean I don't think that's what any of us are saying but be also be honest about where you're at in this journey and like represent yourself appropriately and you know like give context like Mariah said to all of this.
• 27:05
  SPEAKER_02: And it's just like there's such a fine line to walk here because like I'm a I'm a lifelong learner.
• 27:10
  SPEAKER_02: I love learning but I feel like I've I'm the same as you Alex where like I was coached I feel like the only way I can get coached these days is like okay but when's your group program okay but when's your course and and maybe that will come for me but right now it's not appropriate.
• 27:24
  SPEAKER_02: And there's a million ways to earn money online and I'm like why can't we talk about why can't we broaden this up and think about for me right right now what makes most sense and even though that made sense for you at the time maybe it doesn't make sense for me right now.
• 27:38
  SPEAKER_02: And like that that is missing and that's been frustrating for me.
• 27:41
  SPEAKER_02: And I also feel like I love learning and I feel like there's a dialogue out there of like it's almost like this eternal consumerism of like American or our culture as a world is in the online it's like you constantly need to be buying constantly I found myself I've had to have a pause like a very intentional pause because I am constantly hoarding and buying these courses because they're so good at marketing and they're and they're got me convinced I have all these holes to fill.
• 28:09
  SPEAKER_02: But do I really need to be constantly spending all this money on these courses and hoarding them no and I think there's something deeper on with me that may be more valuable and maybe a better investment of my time right now but instead I keep trying to fill the hole with more so that's kind of like I feel so torn on this.
• 28:29
  SPEAKER_02: It's like I love this stuff.
• 28:30
  SPEAKER_02: It's a passion of mine I've gotten so much out of it and like you're saying Alex it feels like a train that's running off the rails and it seems like more and more it's just like getting perverted and like people are not really giving the whole context.
• 28:44
  SPEAKER_02: I mean we've heard from accountants that aren't working with clients anymore because of their marketing and how they portray the money and the accountant can see the details and they say no there's integrity you're missing there.
• 28:56
  SPEAKER_02: You know so like I know I have had people use my testimonials um unfairly the question was what do you expect to make and I just said some number I was brand new and then she posted that as a win and was selling the course with these big numbers and I didn't hit that number for years.
• 29:16
  SPEAKER_02: And I still feel shitty and I actually asked her to take it down because I was like this is not true in my face my headshot all of it's associated you know so it's like I've experienced it on both sides and I think this conversation is so important to have and I'm so glad that you were brave enough Alex to because like you said I've we've all had the closed door conversation.
• 29:37
  SPEAKER_02: So let's open up a space for dialogue around this because I do think it's something as you were talking I'm like thinking of examples and like getting lit up and so I just uh I think it's really brave and courageous and I'm glad that you said something that even if it is a little triggering to us in various ways like we can sit here and talk about it and be more aware.
• 29:57
  SPEAKER_00: And Mariah I'm sorry I got on my soapbox you had something to say no no um yeah I kind of Alex do do you have anything to say after that I feel like yeah yeah I do um and I do want to hear from you Mariah but I just don't want to forget the things of that Shay just said that I want to unpack which is the two most important things that I think you said during that was one, yeah, not trying to banish courses or banish education.
• 30:23
  SPEAKER_00: I myself also have learned so much from really great educators who have been in the branding and graphic design space for a long time and created a course and it was just what I needed at the perfect time and it was a low investment lower than college would have costed me that's for sure.
• 30:39
  SPEAKER_00: And you know my business has really flourished from those things.
• 30:43
  SPEAKER_00: And that's why I didn't want to do like an Instagram live or do like a video story because I wanted to be very articulate or try to be that listen like I'm not trying to just do this blanket statement of courses are awful and evil and all that.
• 30:59
  SPEAKER_00: Because they're not I mean there's so many people doing really great things and teaching for a very affordable price and that's awesome.
• 31:05
  SPEAKER_00: The other thing that you said was this feeling of like hoarding courses and like constantly buying and this pressure to just learn learn learn and that that's a part of the tactic unfortunately it's a there's a line between there's a fine line between marketing and manipulation and that line is completely blurred now because we are all being manipulated whether we like it or know it or not um these there's a reason there's a sales page formula there's a reason there's an email funnel formula there's a reason there's things that like testimonials and fig, you know, monetary figures and what what goes where on the page as they're scrolling through this endless infomercial style sales page and it's because those marketing tactics manipulate you in feeling like you have to buy right now or you're gonna fail or you're not gonna see the success that you want ever unless you buy now.
• 32:02
  SPEAKER_00: And those are the types of things that are just really unfortunate to see and it is a fine line because obviously we are selling we are marketing we are trying to convince people in a way to buy from us but there's just I feel a way to go about it.
• 32:17
  SPEAKER_00: And I I'm not like the be all end all there's no one to really say this is ethical and this is not.
• 32:23
  SPEAKER_00: It's more just like hey maybe we should reflect a little bit right now and decide as a collective what is okay and what we won't accept, you know, because nobody's doing that for us.
• 32:34
  SPEAKER_00: So those were really important points that I thought you brought up.
• 32:37
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah yeah and I just I love this conversation because it really is like the pure example of verbalizing to rationalize.
• 32:46
  SPEAKER_01: And like I kind of want to give all of us just a little bit of like a pat on the back here of like we're not afraid to be wrong.
• 32:52
  SPEAKER_01: Like we're not afraid to have this conversation and to be like oh shit you know what in 15 minutes in this conversation I might have a completely different perspective on this.
• 33:01
  SPEAKER_01: And I think that what we forget about especially in the online business space especially like when we're in authority and like what we know what we do, we forget that we are all fucking biased.
• 33:15
  SPEAKER_01: As human beings, we are all biased.
• 33:17
  SPEAKER_01: We all have our own perspectives and that's why communication is so important but it's like we can't just only use social media to have these conversations like the actual change and the change in perspectives happen not through cancel culture.
• 33:35
  SPEAKER_01: It happens when you're having a conversation in a safe space in a space where it's like I feel okay to be wrong and to have a conversation and to have somebody support me through it and give me another perspective so that I can learn, so that I can change my bias, so that I can be aware of it.
• 33:51
  SPEAKER_01: And I think that this is such honestly this could probably be another podcast episode all on its own.
• 33:56
  SPEAKER_01: But like I think that this piece is also missing in the online world of like why is it not okay for some of us to be wrong or to learn or to figure it out but a lot of people try to like shove it down and pretend like it never happened.
• 34:09
  SPEAKER_01: It's like call yourself out yo I fucked up I fucked up I did this it was not okay I'm so sorry and like make amends and then remember like the the phrase like holier than thou like remember that we are all human and we are all biased and we will all make mistakes.
• 34:25
  SPEAKER_01: I feel like that was a soapbox that I kind of had to stand on for a hot second.
• 34:31
  SPEAKER_01: But I just I I want to give an example here because like from my own business from my own journey and things that have really helped me kind of navigate this because like being in the online space we do get a lot of advice to move forward to create a group program to be the authority in this thing that you've just learned a thing that you haven't taken the time to integrate and like if you hire a coach a mentor if you're in a group program a lot of the time the answer to how do I make more money?
• 35:02
  SPEAKER_01: How do I scale?
• 35:03
  SPEAKER_01: It's either to create a group program, to create a course and like that is the only way to like make more money and to like reach these financial goals.
• 35:14
  SPEAKER_01: When like A, the first question is me and Shay talked about it like why are you trying to make enough money to buy your own private island?
• 35:22
  SPEAKER_01: Like and if that's a goal for you fucking have at it like do it absolutely but like checking in with the intention of like where is this desire coming from is it because it's really in your heart or is it because you feel like you have to prove something or you feel like you also have to want these desires that everybody else around you is having so like getting really clear on that and like from my own personal perspective I I went through this recently where like I created this group program and I was like I'm super fucking excited to to sell it and to talk about it.
• 35:52
  SPEAKER_01: And like the actual information it was about collaborations.
• 35:57
  SPEAKER_01: And I am super fucking passionate about collaborations.
• 36:00
  SPEAKER_01: That's how I've grown my entire business but I moved too fast.
• 36:04
  SPEAKER_01: And I was like the only way that I can help people in this is through creating a group program because that's just how we do it.
• 36:09
  SPEAKER_01: And I ended up getting to like two days before this group program was supposed to like open up completely.
• 36:16
  SPEAKER_01: And I had people in it like that wasn't the issue.
• 36:19
  SPEAKER_01: And then I literally messaged them all and I was like I don't fucking want to do it in a group program.
• 36:24
  SPEAKER_01: Listen you guys can all have your money back but like I was stuck in the sauce for a minute.
• 36:28
  SPEAKER_01: I literally thought that the only way to teach and to educate and to have conversations with people was through doing a group program because that's the only examples that I've seen sliding on my Instagram feed, showing up in stories about all of these great 10K months you can only hit it if you have a group program.
• 36:45
  SPEAKER_01: And then I was like wait a minute how do I actually want to deliver this information because I fucking am still super jazzed about teaching it.
• 36:52
  SPEAKER_01: And I'm like, how do I want to do it?
• 36:54
  SPEAKER_01: And I was like, yo, I love intensives.
• 36:57
  SPEAKER_01: I love two hour calls one on one where we get real deep real quick and then including like four weeks of support after it.
• 37:04
  SPEAKER_01: So you have time to take a breath and to integrate and to see what questions come up along the way.
• 37:10
  SPEAKER_01: But like that was one of the hardest decisions that I've had to make in my business of just like, yo, I have your money you've already paid me.
• 37:18
  SPEAKER_01: I have payment plans waiting to like drop into my bank account and I was like you can absolutely have all of your money back.
• 37:25
  SPEAKER_01: That's not the point.
• 37:26
  SPEAKER_01: And like I've realized I am not excited to run this at all.
• 37:29
  SPEAKER_01: And then it opened up the door to the conversation actually with me and Shay and I was like why am I thinking that the only way to make money is through a fucking group coaching program.
• 37:38
  SPEAKER_01: And then she was like yo you need to go and check out Alex's Instagram and then so that's when I saw all of your stories and that's just like the full circle of kind of how this all came about but like it's so easy to slip into that when you are in the industry and that's all you're seeing is like this is how this is how we grow.
• 37:57
  SPEAKER_01: This is how we expand this is how we hit those income goals.
• 38:00
  SPEAKER_00: And it's like why do I even have that income goal to begin with do I like the way we have income goals right like I pay my bills just fine like yeah yeah I think I think to what you're saying it's all about uh defining your own version of success like what what does success truly mean to you and like really aligning with that and trying to work towards that and hey I I've been in I have a lot of friends that make a shit ton of money like they make way more money than me and lesson that's okay because honestly I I know it sounds people don't believe you almost when you say that I don't need that.
• 38:35
  SPEAKER_00: I don't want that because I know what it takes to get there.
• 38:38
  SPEAKER_00: It either takes a lot of fucking work and growing a team and being a leader that I'm not ready to be like maybe a stage I'm not ready to be at or it it takes being manipulative and and forfeiting some of your ethics to get there.
• 38:50
  SPEAKER_00: One of those two paths typically that's obviously generalizing.
• 38:54
  SPEAKER_00: So you know that's not my version of success and that's okay.
• 38:58
  SPEAKER_00: But again to what you're talking about with feeling like you have to do it through a group program or whatever the case may be that's a part of the trickle down of this funnel and this uh MLM esque you know pyramid scheme that they people are teaching is because they my soapbox today is to me we all have one the the lowest of the low for me in and what I see out there is teachers teaching teachers.
• 39:26
  SPEAKER_00: And I know people will be offended by that I had tons I called that out in my uh on my stories and I had DMs galore from those people that are like well I do it ethically and blah blah and I'm like okay cool you're different I get it but basically the they're profiting off of telling you and almost like shoving down your throat and forcing you to accept that you have something to teach and this is how you're this is the only way that you're going to scale this is how you do it.
• 39:54
  SPEAKER_00: Look at all these other people doing it this is the way you have to do it.
• 39:57
  SPEAKER_00: And that's just not the case.
• 39:59
  SPEAKER_00: I mean first of all some people just aren't good teachers.
• 40:01
  SPEAKER_00: I'm one of those people I I tried to have a group or like a mentorship and though I got people that were super nice about it I was just like I know I'm horrible at creating like video courses and like you know trying to get my point across in a way that makes sense like I don't know I just felt like it totally wasn't my comfort zone.
• 40:20
  SPEAKER_02: It totally wasn't the area that I felt like I had any expertise in and guess what that's because I don't know I've never learned how to teach which sounds kind of counterintuitive but it is a skill on its own that you do have to learn it is a skill on its own skill thank god you said that I do have a background in teaching and that's one part that drives me nuts is in that even like I don't have my master's degree I'm no expert but like just being aware that people have different learning styles and like how to create a lesson plan like a lesson that has a goal and how people learn you know you can you have to hear it then you have to practice it then you have to perform it like there's just some basics of how humans retain info yeah integrate integrate integrate so little in the online space and there's no that goes back to that regulation piece where it's like if there was something to regulate it's like the content we're all experts at marketing but there's not a lot of people that are experts on content creating the content in a way that is really educationally sound and honestly just really unfortunately the standard in the industry is spend all of your time marketing and launching and making a sales page and the actual box that people are buying you don't got to think too much about it.
• 41:44
  SPEAKER_02: Like it's like all the effort is in making the box pretty but what goes inside is really the last thought in how many times have we all bought something even like a PDF or something and you open it up and you're like this is complete shit.
• 41:58
  SPEAKER_02: It's not even readable and it's because we're all pros at getting the word out but there's not a lot about like what goes in it.
• 42:05
  SPEAKER_02: And I've noticed that with it bothers me with the teaching bit.
• 42:09
  SPEAKER_02: Not Alex I think you're probably a fantastic teacher.
• 42:12
  SPEAKER_02: I think you may be I love learning the just even in you talking I learn from you you're great at words I think we all do things differently.
• 42:18
  SPEAKER_02: So I don't mean to say that I think you're bad.
• 42:21
  SPEAKER_02: I just think it's cool that you noted that teaching in and of itself it's so funny there's this booming course industry of all these teachers but no one's actually learning how the skill of teaching and I think that that is very wild.
• 42:36
  SPEAKER_00: And you think about you think about the the the amount of money that actual teachers like teaching children in elementary school and beyond how there's such a a pay gap there.
• 42:48
  SPEAKER_00: And so it's so infuriating to me to see people just you know coming out here saying they're teachers and making multiple six figure launches from you know not not having that skill.
• 43:02
  SPEAKER_00: And also I want to piggyback on what you just said too with you know from a design perspective and working with so many course creators and one-to-one service providers I can tell you and this is something I I also like to talk about on podcast interviews and things like that is a whole different conversation which is you owe it to your audience to create an experience for them especially if they're paying high ticket and a lot of the times you're right the the people that are teaching you how to create these courses and how to uh create these group programs it is all around the marketing so it's all around making your sales page and your brand and that's something I've helped with that's where I'm guilty in this whole thing is like I've helped so many people create super like pretty you know packages wrap it up with a bow make it look awesome but then once you get inside all nine times out of 10 those course creators never have me help with the design of the inside of the course the inside of the course is usually Garbage in the way that it's presented.
• 44:02
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and it's because they already have your money at that point.
• 44:04
  SPEAKER_00: And the last thing I want to say about that too is I know course creators I've worked with as well that will have these multiple six-figure launches, get you in the doors, and then go on a two-week, one-month vacation.
• 44:17
  SPEAKER_02: They're so exhausted from the launch.
• 44:19
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 44:20
  SPEAKER_00: Exactly.
• 44:20
  SPEAKER_02: Sorry, Alex, I had that happen recently.
• 44:23
  SPEAKER_00: That's exactly my point.
• 44:24
  SPEAKER_00: It's it's insane.
• 44:25
  SPEAKER_00: Like they, yeah, they just um they they get you in and that's all they care about.
• 44:30
  SPEAKER_00: It's it is, and it they can people can say that it's not about the money, but it is about the money.
• 44:36
  SPEAKER_00: Like you're doing everything you can to funnel as much cash into your bank account, and then maybe you'll provide what you said you would, and you know, maybe you'll see them through to the success that you promised them.
• 44:48
  SPEAKER_00: But nine times out of 10, that's not what's happening, unfortunately.
• 44:51
  SPEAKER_01: So yeah, and you know what's interesting, I just saw somebody.
• 44:55
  SPEAKER_01: Um, she was like a launch specialist, and she she called this out, and I I loved her approach in it.
• 45:00
  SPEAKER_01: And she was like, Why are we making launching so exhausting that like we can't even host the actual program or course that we just sold?
• 45:08
  SPEAKER_02: It's like that was our podcast when we interviewed Lahara.
• 45:13
  SPEAKER_01: Oh my god, that's hilarious.
• 45:19
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, yes, it was.
• 45:20
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, it was.
• 45:21
  SPEAKER_01: And I remember seeing an Instagram slide about somebody else talking about it too.
• 45:25
  SPEAKER_01: So I'm not completely blanking out here.
• 45:28
  SPEAKER_01: But yes, that and I did this is hilarious, and then I did want to give a solution for people wanting to learn more about adult learning psychology, because I also recently learned about this through being in a group coaching program that was like fucking top-notch, dude.
• 45:50
  SPEAKER_01: Like it was, it was the fucking shit.
• 45:52
  SPEAKER_01: Um, so I got introduced to her name is Taylor and she's a live learning expert.
• 45:58
  SPEAKER_01: So I'm gonna add the link to that in the show notes.
• 46:00
  SPEAKER_01: And she is a teacher that brought her skills online.
• 46:04
  SPEAKER_01: And I think she actually still teaches now.
• 46:06
  SPEAKER_01: But what she does is like she helps people understand how as we as adults, how we retain information, how should these courses and programs be structured in a way that allows us to get what we need out of them?
• 46:20
  SPEAKER_01: How can we create a structure that supports us in integrating?
• 46:27
  SPEAKER_01: And like one of the things that I remember her saying is that like a lot of these courses, people try to like pick the time of like how long it's gonna be, like it's gonna be four weeks.
• 46:35
  SPEAKER_01: And it's like you look at the the shit that you're trying to do, and you're like, yo, people need space to integrate into practices.
• 46:42
  SPEAKER_01: Like this is gonna be at least like a 12-week thing.
• 46:45
  SPEAKER_01: And so it's like a lot of the times, not just throwing content out there, like reading content, understanding content, it's different than teaching.
• 46:55
  SPEAKER_01: It is different.
• 46:57
  SPEAKER_01: Like, yeah, and I I just think about like, I guess the the difference in my blog posts versus like my DIY SEO course.
• 47:04
  SPEAKER_01: It's completely fucking different.
• 47:06
  SPEAKER_01: The DIY, like the the course is like, this is how you integrate.
• 47:10
  SPEAKER_01: This is the shit that you're gonna see that's gonna come up, that like this is how you handle it.
• 47:13
  SPEAKER_01: This is the FAQs, like this is how you work through and solve the problem.
• 47:17
  SPEAKER_01: And it's like you have to give that basic knowledge, but it's like you also have to help people integrate what the fuck you're teaching, give examples because, like a lot of us, the shit doesn't sink in unless we get an example of like, wait, how is that used?
• 47:31
  SPEAKER_01: How can you figure that out?
• 47:33
  SPEAKER_01: It's like helping people problem solve.
• 47:36
  SPEAKER_01: That's essentially education, right?
• 47:38
  SPEAKER_01: It's like we go into this buying a course because we want to solve some problem.
• 47:42
  SPEAKER_01: And it's like they're essentially teaching us specifically how to solve our own problem moving forward.
• 47:47
  SPEAKER_01: And that takes time and that takes patience.
• 47:50
  SPEAKER_01: And like just trying to fit it into like this like a two-week program when like you're trying to create this massive transformation is completely fucking unfair.
• 48:01
  SPEAKER_01: And then it's like, and then you're selling it by these amazing testimonials, and then these people in it are like, how do these people get amazing testimonials in two weeks?
• 48:08
  SPEAKER_01: Like, what the fuck?
• 48:09
  SPEAKER_01: This didn't make any sense, and then you're in a shame spiral.
• 48:12
  SPEAKER_02: Well, that's one piece that Alex brought up.
• 48:14
  SPEAKER_02: You know, you talked about young designers, Alex, and I I I loved your perspective, but I almost went in a different direction of it.
• 48:21
  SPEAKER_02: Of I've seen a lot of I think the big wins and the big numbers, it can create unrealistic expectations, especially if you're new and you can come into it and see, like, wow, in six months, I can be having six figures.
• 48:36
  SPEAKER_02: And then when you get there and you don't, it can be very derailing.
• 48:41
  SPEAKER_02: And so I've worked with a lot of just like younger people in the business that are so down on themselves because they're not where they think they should be, but where they should be is basically what these testimonials on these sales pages are telling them.
• 48:55
  SPEAKER_02: And it's like, oh man, that's tough.
• 48:57
  SPEAKER_02: And I think we're like setting these really high unrealistic standards to like, there's almost like this like showmanship in the industry, and like we got to make it jazzy and look enticing, you know.
• 49:09
  SPEAKER_02: And and I think unfortunately that can be hard when you're joining a program.
• 49:14
  SPEAKER_02: And if you are not getting those results, it can be an extra level of hard of like, what's wrong with me?
• 49:20
  SPEAKER_02: The normal must be what's all over the sales page.
• 49:23
  SPEAKER_02: But what Alex is saying is true, it's the opposite.
• 49:26
  SPEAKER_02: What you're seeing on the sales page is usually like the highlights, cream of the crap, very best.
• 49:31
  SPEAKER_02: And that's not normal, even though it may seem like it.
• 49:33
  SPEAKER_02: And even though you're on Instagram and you're seeing about everybody's multi-six figure months, that's not normal.
• 49:39
  SPEAKER_02: And so I feel like our perception of reality gets distorted with all of this noise.
• 49:46
  SPEAKER_00: Well, there's there's two parts to that.
• 49:48
  SPEAKER_00: Um, one is that obviously the course creators are cherry-picking what they share, which I find funny because we wouldn't, it's just funny what we accept in the online business space that we wouldn't accept in normal marketing, because it's usually seen as sleazy or false advertisement.
• 50:05
  SPEAKER_00: So you think about these products that are being sold through normal commercials or normal online ads or whatever, what have you, just normal product-based businesses.
• 50:15
  SPEAKER_00: If they were to pay people to write a good review for them, we would say, Oh, that's unethical, that's sleazy.
• 50:21
  SPEAKER_00: Or if they were to only show positive reviews of their product.
• 50:24
  SPEAKER_00: Like, think if you went to Amazon.
• 50:26
  SPEAKER_00: I know Amazon's got its own ethical issues, but using it as an example, you shop on Amazon, you see all these reviews.
• 50:32
  SPEAKER_00: If they were to only show you positive reviews, you'd be like, What the hell?
• 50:36
  SPEAKER_00: Where's the truth?
• 50:36
  SPEAKER_00: Like, where's the real answers here?
• 50:38
  SPEAKER_00: That doesn't happen with these courses because obviously we're all cherry-picking positive testimonials.
• 50:43
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 50:43
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but then the other side of that is what you were saying about these young designers like being hard on themselves after the fact.
• 50:52
  SPEAKER_00: That's another part of the conversation that I knew was a problem, and I was passionate about like calling it out so that it stopped affecting, but I didn't know it was a problem to the degree that it is.
• 51:03
  SPEAKER_00: And a lot of the DMs that I received were from young designers that are like, oh my God, I'm so glad that you're calling out these things and that you're pointing out these red flags because I feel so pressured to buy from these people that I'm aspiring to be, because I see, like you said, that's where you're supposed to be, and that's what you can make.
• 51:23
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and a lot of them get get burned.
• 51:26
  SPEAKER_00: And to the point where some of these course creators, and some of them were friends of mine.
• 51:30
  SPEAKER_00: I don't consider them friends anymore just because the lengths that they've gone to to prey on people is insane to me.
• 51:36
  SPEAKER_00: But um, like trying to convince people to take out loans or to take out to open credit cards in order to pay for their course, because they just know that that's what they need to get where they want to go.
• 51:49
  SPEAKER_00: And to me, I mean, I know we do that with university and like school, we've always had loan systems for that.
• 51:55
  SPEAKER_00: But to me, unless you're truly following through on that promise, that monetary promise, because that's why they're signing up, they see the numbers and they they want those numbers.
• 52:05
  SPEAKER_00: And unless you're actually going to hold their hand to that point where they're making that, you shouldn't be convincing anyone to buy from you.
• 52:14
  SPEAKER_00: That is so manipulative.
• 52:15
  SPEAKER_00: And I just I hate that side of it.
• 52:16
  SPEAKER_00: So yeah, just hearing all the stories from the young designers in my DMs that have been burned or were on the verge of being burned, and they're like, Oh, I'm so glad you called it out because I was feeling really pressured.
• 52:28
  SPEAKER_00: Um, yeah, that's a that's a huge problem that goes alongside all this course creation.
• 52:35
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I think it's just the need for more transparency because, like, you know, I also fucking love programs, I love courses, all of that shit.
• 52:46
  SPEAKER_01: And it's like, for me, I love playing in the realm of possibilities of like how fucking cool is it that there's an example of somebody that made this much money doing the thing that I want to do, and like that is so fucking cool to me.
• 53:00
  SPEAKER_01: But it's like we need some transparency in terms of like it took this person, they've been in business for four years, they've already had a website up.
• 53:09
  SPEAKER_01: In my case, like SEO, Google already knows that they're a thing, they've already created blog posts, they have long-form content out there, they've started already building relationships.
• 53:20
  SPEAKER_01: And then, like, these extra things is like fine-tuning some of those things and maybe re-strategizing some of the stuff.
• 53:27
  SPEAKER_01: But it's like if you don't have the foundations of business and you jump into these programs that are offering you, or like trying to convince you that this could be you, that's different to me.
• 53:40
  SPEAKER_01: You know what I mean?
• 53:41
  SPEAKER_01: Like, there's there's a difference between being transparent in terms of being like, this is the possible outcome that could happen, and then like giving them steps to walk in order to get there, and telling people that, like, as soon as they choose their business name, that they're gonna be super well known in the next three months, and shit's gonna like they're never gonna have to worry about money ever again.
• 54:06
  SPEAKER_01: It's like there's always a balance.
• 54:10
  SPEAKER_01: And I'm finding in the in these hard conversations, there is never a black and white answer.
• 54:17
  SPEAKER_01: It's all it always comes down to context.
• 54:20
  SPEAKER_01: Context is so important because it's like we can have these testimonials that say that they've gotten these results, and that's great.
• 54:29
  SPEAKER_01: And that testimonial might not be manipulative.
• 54:32
  SPEAKER_01: That person put in the fucking work and they did it.
• 54:34
  SPEAKER_01: And that's great.
• 54:35
  SPEAKER_01: And I think that we should be able to show all of those things and to have conversations about it.
• 54:40
  SPEAKER_01: And I'm just I'm thinking like in my own, in my own course, it's like, where do I fall in this?
• 54:48
  SPEAKER_01: You know what I mean?
• 54:49
  SPEAKER_01: Like, because obviously we only put testimonials that show that people got results.
• 54:53
  SPEAKER_01: And it's like, these are the people that put in the work that asked the questions in the Facebook group, that like actually went in and did the thing.
• 54:59
  SPEAKER_01: But it's like somebody that maybe didn't do the work is like, well, I'm not happy with this because you didn't give me customized unique advice.
• 55:07
  SPEAKER_01: It's like, but it's a DIY course that didn't include that.
• 55:10
  SPEAKER_01: So it's like finding that thin line of just like cherry picking is normal to a certain extent when there's transparency, but also like what personal responsibility also comes in here.
• 55:26
  SPEAKER_01: And that's why it's like the the exact answer, it's not black nor white, it's somewhere gray and context fucking matters and checking in with your intention.
• 55:36
  SPEAKER_01: How do you feel?
• 55:37
  SPEAKER_01: Like we've talked about numerous times, like these marketing tactics that people are using.
• 55:42
  SPEAKER_01: Sometimes I see them and I'm just like, ugh, like it makes me feel like I have to go and take a shower because I'm like, how the fuck do you feel good doing that?
• 55:50
  SPEAKER_01: And then other people, seemingly on the outside, it might seem like it's the same, but it feels different.
• 55:57
  SPEAKER_01: That person provides more context, there's more transparency, there's more authenticity.
• 56:02
  SPEAKER_01: And so it really does come down to like, how do you feel when you're being marketed to by this person?
• 56:07
  SPEAKER_01: Do you feel like something's off?
• 56:09
  SPEAKER_01: Because like there's an energetic transference here of just like you can feel this shit.
• 56:16
  SPEAKER_01: And like also growing a successful online business, we don't talk about this a lot, but it takes fucking time and like it takes patience and it takes testing and it takes tweaking.
• 56:26
  SPEAKER_01: And like, I've been in business seven years now, and like I would have to say that like it's a roller coaster, and there is never one thing that is going to make you successful.
• 56:39
  SPEAKER_01: These courses, like we talked about in the beginning, they'll promise you this is the thing that you need in order to like blow the roof off of it.
• 56:46
  SPEAKER_01: And it's like there's never one thing, like there's never the next thing might be the thing, but it's not because it came from somebody else, it's because like you've aligned with that strategy or like your confidence or the way that your teaching has improved, the results, or like everything's building up over time.
• 57:04
  SPEAKER_01: Like, there's there's just so many layers to this.
• 57:08
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and I think to your point, there it is, context does matter, and that's something as a human race, we're losing the ability to uh focus in on because it everything is so black and white, whether it's you know the Karen's on the internet that we're watching or cancel culture or what have you, like we all just want to jump down someone's throat and call someone out because we all we're all here for the tea, you know.
• 57:32
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but in reality, you're right.
• 57:34
  SPEAKER_00: There's there's context.
• 57:36
  SPEAKER_00: And what I would really respect, honestly, for from course creators is if you did treat it like a true review where you have an area maybe featured on your sales page where people are leaving honest reviews, positive and negative.
• 57:51
  SPEAKER_00: Not only will that allow you to grow and improve your course if you truly care about it, but it'll give the buyer an honest perspective on your course.
• 58:02
  SPEAKER_00: And the reason I say that too is because after I started this conversation on Instagram, I've had real conversations with course creator friends of mine in the design industry.
• 58:12
  SPEAKER_00: And a lot of them, I would straight up pull up example DMs, obviously not naming anybody uh to this course creator or anything like that.
• 58:20
  SPEAKER_00: But I would say, look, I've got five DMs here, all calling you out by name, saying that you're part of the problem in the industry and you're one of the people that burned them or whatever the case.
• 58:29
  SPEAKER_00: And they would just be like, Oh my gosh, I had no idea whether that's true or not.
• 58:34
  SPEAKER_00: I don't know.
• 58:35
  SPEAKER_00: But it could be like it could be that these young designers or people that have been burned after taking this course didn't want to leave a bad review, like you said, because you that's a reputation thing in your industry.
• 58:45
  SPEAKER_00: You don't want to put yourself out in that way.
• 58:48
  SPEAKER_00: But also, you don't want to call it the course creator because they're on a platform.
• 58:52
  SPEAKER_00: They have there's they're at a different point in their career than you are.
• 58:57
  SPEAKER_00: So having the courage to call someone like that out or to admit to yourself and to them that you didn't get the success or that you didn't have a good experience is just not really an option.
• 59:09
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and another part of that is what you were talking about with people, you know, making these statements of, oh, I hit 10k month this month, or I hit six figures, whatever that monetary goal was that they hit that ends up being used in those testimonials.
• 59:26
  SPEAKER_00: I I don't have proof to back this up, but I feel like part of that is wanting to, I don't think suck up is the right word, but like impress.
• 59:34
  SPEAKER_00: It's like you want to make your parents proud, kind of thing.
• 59:36
  SPEAKER_00: So you're wanting to impress your teacher, you know, and say that.
• 59:40
  SPEAKER_00: So that's why people are so willing to just like jump in these Facebook groups or in DMs and be like, oh my gosh, I got this big win.
• 59:45
  SPEAKER_00: It's all because of you.
• 59:46
  SPEAKER_00: In reality, it probably isn't all because of them.
• 59:49
  SPEAKER_00: To Mariah's point, it's because of the work you've put in as a business owner and all the time and energy you've spent.
• 59:54
  SPEAKER_00: But because you just took this course and you maybe learned one or two nuggets of valuable information from this person, all of a sudden you're like putting them on a pedestal and saying, My success is because of you.
• 1:00:04
  SPEAKER_00: It doesn't necessarily mean it's true.
• 1:00:06
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but I think that's where all of those like waves of testimonials and uh in little snippets of uh information that they get from these students is coming from, just because you do like you want to impress the person teaching you and be like, Yeah, it worked.
• 1:00:22
  SPEAKER_00: Um, so that's a whole other thing.
• 1:00:23
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, I don't know how you regulate that or you know anything like that, but I just feel like it's a piece of it that just like in all of this stuff, the awareness, the shining light on it is where the power is.
• 1:00:33
  SPEAKER_02: Like you just saying that, I I am that I'm realizing that about myself.
• 1:00:37
  SPEAKER_02: So, like, thank you.
• 1:00:38
  SPEAKER_02: Like, I just think like just putting it out there is helpful.
• 1:00:42
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah.
• 1:00:43
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, and I've done it too, and I've done and I know I've done it because I I've I've taken a shit ton of courses, like I hoard courses too, and I do learn things from them.
• 1:00:52
  SPEAKER_00: Like it's all about pulling uh different nuggets of information and things that will help you in in where you are in your journey and making that work for you.
• 1:01:00
  SPEAKER_00: But I have found myself uh jumping into these Facebook groups and being like, oh, I've got this big win, like let me share this.
• 1:01:06
  SPEAKER_00: It's so cool, it's all because of you.
• 1:01:08
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but then it and it's usually something I don't realize until later down the road that I'm like, wow, why did I do that?
• 1:01:15
  SPEAKER_00: Like, why did I feel called to like even share that monetary win?
• 1:01:19
  SPEAKER_00: Like, that's not really I it's so interesting.
• 1:01:22
  SPEAKER_00: Like, when it when is it okay to talk about your finances and your and your sales and then money?
• 1:01:27
  SPEAKER_00: And when is it not okay?
• 1:01:29
  SPEAKER_00: And like, what's the line?
• 1:01:30
  SPEAKER_00: And I think to me, what I've decided personally, the line is when you're using it as a way to like prop yourself up or boast or come impress anybody, that's the wrong time.
• 1:01:43
  SPEAKER_00: When you're doing it to say, hey, here's what's possible, like in a way to inspire, especially women, because I know that's a big part of online business and and women sharing their sales, is because like, look, we you know, you know, they there's always that conversation of like, we'll make our own table if you're not going to invite us to the table, you know.
• 1:02:01
  SPEAKER_00: And I think there's a lot of that, and that's really positive.
• 1:02:03
  SPEAKER_00: And if you're truly using it as a way to inspire, cool.
• 1:02:07
  SPEAKER_00: But when you use it for a way to like manipulate into a sale, that's where you know it becomes a problem.
• 1:02:14
  SPEAKER_01: Yep.
• 1:02:15
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, um I'm glad that you brought this point up because I just like went off on Instagram maybe like last week.
• 1:02:22
  SPEAKER_01: And I literally was like, okay, so for me, it's something that I can't get behind in the industry and I will never do it because it just doesn't sit right with me, is like not putting at least a starting number about your packages or your pricing on your website.
• 1:02:38
  SPEAKER_01: I understand that sometimes it deserves custom numbers because like people have custom packages and things like that.
• 1:02:45
  SPEAKER_01: I also understand that like sometimes an investment needs to be explained.
• 1:02:51
  SPEAKER_01: And sometimes you have to do that in a conversation.
• 1:02:54
  SPEAKER_01: Completely get that.
• 1:02:55
  SPEAKER_01: But I just find it interesting that it's like as an industry, as a female in the industry, it's like we're trying to say that like we're trying to make money not taboo anymore.
• 1:03:05
  SPEAKER_01: We're trying to make money like be okay to talk about.
• 1:03:08
  SPEAKER_01: And it's like, so we're saying that money is okay to talk about, but there's a lack of transparency of showing the investment on the sales page.
• 1:03:16
  SPEAKER_01: And to me, it's like, I understand that not everybody's gonna agree with this, but it's like it's just for me personally, it's like I'm not going to fill out an intake form and like be surprised by a number on a sales call that doesn't feel good for me.
• 1:03:30
  SPEAKER_01: I want to know I'm a fact finder.
• 1:03:32
  SPEAKER_01: I like to have all of my facts, all of my data points.
• 1:03:35
  SPEAKER_01: And then I would like to be able to be an adult and make a decision if I would like to spend my time on a sales call to talk about wait, why is this the price?
• 1:03:44
  SPEAKER_01: What does this include?
• 1:03:46
  SPEAKER_01: Ask my questions and all of that.
• 1:03:47
  SPEAKER_01: But I just think it's an interesting thing happening in the industry that like we're hiding prices on sales pages and like not giving anything.
• 1:03:56
  SPEAKER_01: And like my assumption, I'll find somebody else.
• 1:03:59
  SPEAKER_01: I'll find somebody else where at least I can just assume because I assume that it's too high and I can't afford it.
• 1:04:05
  SPEAKER_01: But I maybe can afford it.
• 1:04:08
  SPEAKER_01: But it's like that that's that's for that's for me to judge and to move forward with the education around that.
• 1:04:14
  SPEAKER_01: And I think that money is it's definitely an interesting thing in the industry.
• 1:04:19
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, that it's kind of a can of worms that's taking this conversation in a different direction, but I'm totally for here for it because that's another thing, another soapbox thing that I get on, especially when I was mentoring other designers, um, is that you do need to have now I do it as a starting point just because I am custom quoting a little bit more because of the scope of the projects I'm delivering are broader, but I do have a hey, it starts at this.
• 1:04:43
  SPEAKER_00: This like this is the minimum engagement kind of thing.
• 1:04:45
  SPEAKER_03: Yes.
• 1:04:46
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but I used to for the longest time just have like, and I was one of the few, there weren't many designers that had their prices out on Front Street.
• 1:04:54
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but I just I don't want to waste my time, I don't want to waste the buyer's time.
• 1:04:58
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and I just it feels good.
• 1:05:02
  SPEAKER_00: And the reason it's getting trickier, I think, is because so many people have gone to value-based pricing models, and uh that can make it really difficult for people to share a starting point.
• 1:05:15
  SPEAKER_00: And the reason is because with this, it's a it's a sliding scale.
• 1:05:19
  SPEAKER_00: To me, it's borderline unethical, depending on how you approach your value-based pricing model.
• 1:05:24
  SPEAKER_00: If you're approaching it, I've seen it done.
• 1:05:26
  SPEAKER_00: I'll I'll give two examples.
• 1:05:28
  SPEAKER_00: If you're doing value-based pricing, which basically just means you're custom quoting every each and every client, if you're doing it from the approach of like having a tiered system where you're like, okay, you're just getting started, here's the price range for that type of business.
• 1:05:43
  SPEAKER_00: You're you know, one employee kind of thing.
• 1:05:46
  SPEAKER_00: If you're a small team of 10 to 50 or whatever the number is, here's that other price bracket.
• 1:05:53
  SPEAKER_00: And then if you're like a corporate Fortune 500 big box business, this is you know the kind of price range that I have.
• 1:05:59
  SPEAKER_00: That's a Value-based model that still has some kind of honesty and uh transparency around it.
• 1:06:08
  SPEAKER_00: The other side of it, which is what a lot of people get taught nowadays, is oh yeah, just get on the sales call and find out what kind of money they're making and like what kind of sales they're doing.
• 1:06:17
  SPEAKER_00: Like basically it's all about how well they are doing so that you know how much you can charge.
• 1:06:23
  SPEAKER_00: And the thing that makes me think of is if, you know, we look at celebrities, we don't have to know how much their net worth is to know that they're making a shit ton of money.
• 1:06:31
  SPEAKER_00: And if they were to come in, I used to work at Apple.
• 1:06:33
  SPEAKER_00: If they were to come in to buy an iPhone, and I was to say, Oh, well, well, this is a million dollars for you because you have a lot of money.
• 1:06:40
  SPEAKER_00: But if it's someone I know that just works at the mall with me, oh, I'm gonna charge you the normal price for the iPhone.
• 1:06:46
  SPEAKER_00: To me, that's where the ethical issue comes into play.
• 1:06:49
  SPEAKER_00: And I know it's business and it's money.
• 1:06:51
  SPEAKER_00: Um and as a designer, there's another perspective where you have to take in uh you have to, you know, know the impact it's gonna have on your business as far as like if you fuck up or fail with brand design.
• 1:07:05
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, that you're yeah, the risk, exactly.
• 1:07:08
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, so so that does come into play, and I get that part of it.
• 1:07:10
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but I just think that's another can of worms, another area of conversation that needs shed it to shed some light on it, because this whole like, oh, value-based pricing, don't show your prices on Front Street.
• 1:07:23
  SPEAKER_00: Um, basically get as much milk as much money from these people as you can.
• 1:07:27
  SPEAKER_00: To me, that's just not the approach.
• 1:07:30
  SPEAKER_00: And uh before I stop talking, I want to call out two people that I think are good resources.
• 1:07:35
  SPEAKER_00: One is Brittany Janine.
• 1:07:37
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, she talked about I was just uh having a conversation with her in the DMs.
• 1:07:41
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, perfect.
• 1:07:42
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, she's really she's been really good about uh talking about this topic in particular, but she there's there's so many, she's another person that I'm like, yes, I like to see someone else talking about these kind of things in the industry.
• 1:07:53
  SPEAKER_00: Um, because she calls out all kinds of shit like this.
• 1:07:56
  SPEAKER_00: And then another one that doesn't have it's not as big a platform as Going Ultraviolet.
• 1:08:00
  SPEAKER_00: She actually is a copywriter that focuses on like ethical sales pages and ethical copywriting.
• 1:08:06
  SPEAKER_00: Um, so that's another really good resource if people want some kind of like starting point of what to how to approach those kind of things.
• 1:08:13
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, we'll definitely put the links to them in the show notes as well.
• 1:08:17
  SPEAKER_01: Um, yeah, that's actually like a week ago, that's what inspired me to kind of like talk about this on my Instagram.
• 1:08:23
  SPEAKER_01: I actually shared Britney's posts and I was like, yo, like, yeah, this is it.
• 1:08:28
  SPEAKER_01: Like, why is this happening?
• 1:08:30
  SPEAKER_01: What is happening with this?
• 1:08:31
  SPEAKER_01: And yeah, I I love her, her Instagram and just like the shit that she calls out and how she does it.
• 1:08:37
  SPEAKER_01: So yeah, we'll definitely leave the links to those in the show notes.
• 1:08:40
  SPEAKER_02: Well, and just in the spirit of the episode, you know, I'm fascinated by sales and how we can what sales even means.
• 1:08:49
  SPEAKER_02: And unfortunately, the way we're we learn sales is in my mind lacks a lot of integrity.
• 1:08:55
  SPEAKER_02: And there is a way to do it that's not that way.
• 1:08:57
  SPEAKER_02: Um, but you know, this from a sales perspective, we're taught not to share our prices because you need to take the client through the full experience.
• 1:09:07
  SPEAKER_02: And so it's like, you why would you share prices before you've really painted the picture of the future?
• 1:09:12
  SPEAKER_02: And value-based pricing, you know, true, honest, buy the book, value-based pricing is it's basically ask the client what they want to make and then like take a percentage of it.
• 1:09:21
  SPEAKER_02: And all of those numbers are made up and it doesn't make sense and it can feel manipulated.
• 1:09:25
  SPEAKER_02: For me, I found communicating prices, when you can explain the reasoning behind your prices, like Alex said, I call that like a Goldilocks style.
• 1:09:34
  SPEAKER_02: It's nice.
• 1:09:34
  SPEAKER_02: And you can say, hey, we have a way we think about pricing and we apply it to all clients.
• 1:09:38
  SPEAKER_02: That is a nice way to communicate.
• 1:09:40
  SPEAKER_02: You're this is not me just randomly pulling numbers based on these made-up calculations, right?
• 1:09:46
  SPEAKER_02: There's a theory, there's a way we do this and it's equally applied.
• 1:09:49
  SPEAKER_02: I think that is a nice way to handle that.
• 1:09:51
  SPEAKER_02: And also I think it's just nice to be aware that, like, to be fair, having prices about a website is not possible.
• 1:10:00
  SPEAKER_02: A coaching program is like a set package, even a branding package can be pretty straightforward.
• 1:10:04
  SPEAKER_02: When you get into like weirder stuff like websites, there's just we can have a starting price, but you got to dive into the weeds and it usually looks pretty custom.
• 1:10:12
  SPEAKER_02: So I think that's a nice thing to point out.
• 1:10:13
  SPEAKER_02: But being aware that like it is a sales tactic that is taught to not put prices on a website because they want to get you on a call and they want to lead you through an intentional conversation that puts you in a place, but gets you in the right mindset in their idea of what a right mindset is.
• 1:10:32
  SPEAKER_02: So I think it's just nice to be aware of like all this stuff we're seeing, like Alex is saying, it's actually these like old style marketing and sales tactics that have been kind of like repurposed for our industry.
• 1:10:43
  SPEAKER_02: And and I'd love to kind of transition to when you guys are going through, I'm ultra sensitive about this, but when you're going through a sales page or when you're finding yourself getting kind of sucked into a funnel, what are the things that are sending off big red alarms and red flags for you?
• 1:10:59
  SPEAKER_02: Um, one thing Alex talks about in his post is countdown timers.
• 1:11:04
  SPEAKER_02: These days, if I am on a sales page and I see a countdown timer, I it's a red flag for me.
• 1:11:10
  SPEAKER_02: It's not always a bad thing because I don't think it's necessarily bad to use urgency, but know that urgency is a lever that salespeople will use to manipulate.
• 1:11:20
  SPEAKER_02: And it works.
• 1:11:22
  SPEAKER_02: I I have myself signed up for things because there was urgency.
• 1:11:26
  SPEAKER_02: And in true, maybe there is a cart close.
• 1:11:28
  SPEAKER_02: If you have a true end date, that's fine.
• 1:11:32
  SPEAKER_02: But what we are seeing is that how many times have you gone back to the sales page and the timer resets itself?
• 1:11:38
  SPEAKER_02: It's not a real timer, it's fake.
• 1:11:40
  SPEAKER_02: And it a lot of times the deadlines, you know, I've just had people make fake urgency things, and then when it comes out later that it was fake, it was artificial.
• 1:11:49
  SPEAKER_01: That I was told to make one.
• 1:11:51
  SPEAKER_01: Like when I first got into the industry, they were like, Yeah, you need an urgency timer.
• 1:11:54
  SPEAKER_01: And I honestly, I didn't even really think about it.
• 1:11:57
  SPEAKER_01: And I was like, I don't want to pay for another fucking software.
• 1:12:00
  SPEAKER_01: That's out, dude.
• 1:12:00
  SPEAKER_01: That's out.
• 1:12:01
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 1:12:02
  SPEAKER_02: These days I don't think it's bad, but I do think like when I see it, my whatever, my ears perk up.
• 1:12:09
  SPEAKER_02: I'm like, oh, this this I maybe isn't a good thing.
• 1:12:13
  SPEAKER_02: Maybe it is, you know, but it is to be aware of.
• 1:12:16
  SPEAKER_02: It's a tactic that people use.
• 1:12:17
  SPEAKER_02: So that's my first one.
• 1:12:18
  SPEAKER_02: Let's kind of like go around.
• 1:12:19
  SPEAKER_02: What about you, Alex?
• 1:12:20
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, the that's funny.
• 1:12:22
  SPEAKER_00: The the countdown timer one is probably the one with the most gray area.
• 1:12:25
  SPEAKER_00: And I I received a lot of DMs from people that were like mid-course launched.
• 1:12:29
  SPEAKER_00: That it's funny because people started like seeking me for like, what should I do this?
• 1:12:33
  SPEAKER_00: I don't know.
• 1:12:34
  SPEAKER_00: I don't you don't need my approval, but if you're asking my opinion, I'll give it to you.
• 1:12:38
  SPEAKER_00: Um but the uh the countdown timer thing, I agree with you.
• 1:12:43
  SPEAKER_00: I think um it's it's if you do have a true cart open and cart closed, and you want to give a window and to you, you know, a countdown timer is maybe uh borderline manipulative because it's like, oh, it's like diffusing a bomb, you know, like you see it in these movies when they're like, oh my gosh, I gotta do it by this time.
• 1:13:01
  SPEAKER_00: But I will say having a window, like if it was a true cart open and cart closed as a buyer, that does sometimes help.
• 1:13:07
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but yeah, the ones that are just like you refresh the page and it's you know, uh there's no truth, there's no uh yeah, there's no truth behind that that time, that sense of urgency.
• 1:13:17
  SPEAKER_00: It's all just to get you to click by.
• 1:13:19
  SPEAKER_00: Um, obviously that's super sleazy and you don't want to want to do that.
• 1:13:23
  SPEAKER_00: Um, some of the other red flags for me are just anyone that is the biggest one for me is when you get to the bottom of the sales page.
• 1:13:33
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and this this goes for inquiry forms and contact forms in general too, when people are trying to manipulate you in a way of saying, if you don't buy today, this is what your future is going to look like.
• 1:13:47
  SPEAKER_00: And it's usually painted something negative, they've like stabbed you and they're turning the knife, yes, and that's exactly that is the sales tactic.
• 1:13:54
  SPEAKER_00: When they formulate these sales pages, they call it the turning the knife part of the sales page because they they want you, they they get you in with this their story or someone's story that's really heartfelt, and you're like, Oh my god, inspirational, aspirational, whatever.
• 1:14:10
  SPEAKER_00: And then they're like, Yeah, so if you don't do this, I mean you're an idiot, basically, is what you're gonna die in seven days.
• 1:14:19
  SPEAKER_00: Exactly, exactly.
• 1:14:20
  SPEAKER_02: So that I mean they're never gonna succeed, yeah.
• 1:14:23
  SPEAKER_02: Like it's it is emotional, and they get as logical as we all think we are, we're actually making buying decisions from an emotional state.
• 1:14:31
  SPEAKER_02: Like science shows it's about a 90% emotionally subconscious decision.
• 1:14:36
  SPEAKER_02: So they're getting you intentionally into an emotional place, and then they're kind of like um, you know, they've opened the wound and now they're kind of like poking at it, and you're in it's a vulnerable place and it's manipulative, and they've done it intentionally.
• 1:14:50
  SPEAKER_02: It's kind of interesting to be aware of this is how sales pages are written, you know, and no wonder of like it's the equivalent of uh an infomercial or a timeshare.
• 1:15:00
  SPEAKER_00: Like when someone's trying to tell you or sell you a timeshare, it's like this long, they invite you, it's this long process, they give you coffee and cookies and try to make it an enjoyable experience, whatever.
• 1:15:10
  SPEAKER_00: And it's long and drawn out for a reason because they're wearing you down.
• 1:15:15
  SPEAKER_00: And if you uh the example I'll give is if you're you catch the end of an infomercial, or if you just scroll to the bottom of a sales page without reading it, you're way less likely to buy.
• 1:15:25
  SPEAKER_00: But if you watch the entire infomercial from start to finish, or if you read a sales page from top to bottom, the likelihood of you you buying goes way up because you have just been emotionally manipulated.
• 1:15:37
  SPEAKER_00: Um, it and it's funny because it's it hasn't gotten to the extreme of what you see in infomercials where the tuple tupperware is just like falling onto everyone's head, but it's getting pretty damn close.
• 1:15:47
  SPEAKER_00: Like we're getting to a point where it's just like, oh my God, could you be more blatant about the fact that you're really just trying to make me feel awful to get me to buy from you?
• 1:15:56
  SPEAKER_00: You know?
• 1:15:57
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, it's interesting.
• 1:15:59
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, Brian, what about you?
• 1:16:01
  SPEAKER_02: I love that one, Alex.
• 1:16:02
  SPEAKER_02: That's such a good one.
• 1:16:03
  SPEAKER_02: I just like the Tupperware visual, and it's always in black and white, and like something horrible's happening.
• 1:16:10
  SPEAKER_01: Like so like humans are so dumb, like they can't even open up a fucking cabinet, or like they'll slip on like this invisible thing that was never there, and it's like, that's hilarious.
• 1:16:20
  SPEAKER_01: Um, okay, so mine uh mine aren't as noticeable as both of yours.
• 1:16:29
  SPEAKER_01: Mine's a little bit like if I feel like the sales page is too fluffy, or everybody is like winning the same thing, everybody hit six figures, everybody hit 10k months in the testimonials.
• 1:16:43
  SPEAKER_01: And like it feels like it just if it doesn't make sense, like I could just feel that it just like doesn't make sense.
• 1:16:49
  SPEAKER_01: And I'm like, what are you actually selling me though?
• 1:16:52
  SPEAKER_01: Like, what is this?
• 1:16:53
  SPEAKER_01: What is your process?
• 1:16:54
  SPEAKER_01: Like I said, I'm a fact finder.
• 1:16:56
  SPEAKER_01: I need to know what the fuck I'm getting into.
• 1:16:58
  SPEAKER_01: So if it feels too fluffy and like everybody in your program had their life completely changed and they all did this blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, it's like, I don't want to join your fantasy land, dude.
• 1:17:09
  SPEAKER_01: Like, I need to know exactly what this includes.
• 1:17:11
  SPEAKER_01: Does this include live group coaching?
• 1:17:13
  SPEAKER_01: What are we gonna go through?
• 1:17:15
  SPEAKER_01: What is the process?
• 1:17:16
  SPEAKER_01: What like what is in these modules?
• 1:17:19
  SPEAKER_01: Like, give me transparency.
• 1:17:21
  SPEAKER_01: That's what I need.
• 1:17:22
  SPEAKER_01: I don't mind a long sales page if there's transparency, if I can envision myself in the program so that I can make an educated decision on if this fits where I'm at.
• 1:17:35
  SPEAKER_01: And so it's like if it's too fluffy or it's too like up in the air, I'm just like, I gotta, you didn't talk me into jack shit.
• 1:17:43
  SPEAKER_01: I have no idea what the fuck you're selling me.
• 1:17:45
  SPEAKER_01: And so that's when I usually am just like, well, better luck to you.
• 1:17:48
  SPEAKER_00: That um I want to piggyback on that because you brought up two really good points that I do talk about in my calling out of these things, but I didn't even think of one of them is um the fact, like a red flag for me in general, the biggest red flag is monetary promises, like 10k months, six figure years, whatever it is.
• 1:18:08
  SPEAKER_00: Um to me, those types of things can't be promised unless you're truly working with someone one-on-one and you're getting them to that point.
• 1:18:17
  SPEAKER_00: Um, that that's where you know you can make some kind of monetary promise in your agreement.
• 1:18:22
  SPEAKER_00: But for a course that's one to many that's meant to be DIY, or even for a coaching program, that's that's where it gets a little sleazy.
• 1:18:30
  SPEAKER_00: But the other side of, oh shoot, what was the other thing I was gonna say that you were talking about?
• 1:18:36
  SPEAKER_00: Um, oh, this is a big problem actually in the spiritual uh woo-woo like realm where people have it's it's like an upside-down pyramid, the way they funnel people through it, because you want your like get them in the door with a webinar, then get them into your uh group program or one-to-mini program, then get them into your uh whatever the next level of that is, and then get them into your like private container.
• 1:19:04
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and in that private container, or even sometimes in the group program, a lot of the times it is so vague what you're buying.
• 1:19:12
  SPEAKER_00: You're basically just buying the privilege to be graced with their presence.
• 1:19:18
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, and you have no clue what you're what the transformation is gonna look like, what you're actually gonna talk about.
• 1:19:24
  SPEAKER_01: What you don't know what's the curriculum people fucking have.
• 1:19:27
  SPEAKER_01: What skills do you have that you're gonna teach me that's going to help my business or going to help me, or like it's even mindset?
• 1:19:35
  SPEAKER_01: Mindset can be a little like, well, what do you mean about mindset?
• 1:19:38
  SPEAKER_01: And it's like, what skills do you have that can build the foundation that then I can learn and learn about myself and reflect and integrate?
• 1:19:47
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I agree.
• 1:19:49
  SPEAKER_00: Well, it's funny that you say that because that's another red flag that I call out uh on these sales pages is talking about mindset in general.
• 1:19:56
  SPEAKER_00: Because to me, unless you're trauma informed or you're you have some kind of degree in that world, you have no, I don't want you anywhere near my brain.
• 1:20:04
  SPEAKER_00: Like I don't want you because that that's where I think a lot of us in this online business space have fallen victim or prey to this like MLM, you know, kind of lifestyle and tactic and it being integrated into our businesses is because we're letting people say, Oh, well, the reason that feels icky to you, or the reason that that feels unethical to you is because of your mindset.
• 1:20:28
  SPEAKER_00: Like it's you can your reality is what you make it.
• 1:20:31
  SPEAKER_00: And you know, if you just change your outlook on that, then all fair.
• 1:20:37
  SPEAKER_00: And it's true, and a lot of that uh it's very cultish behavior, it's very manipulative behavior from these leaders that are basically trying to um invite you into this world that they've created and tell you that it's okay.
• 1:20:51
  SPEAKER_00: And you have this whole community of people trying to welcome you with open arms and telling you it's okay, when in reality, on the outside of that, uh, you know, it's not, it's super unethical and you've just been manipulated.
• 1:21:04
  SPEAKER_02: Well, you know, we talked a lot earlier about teachers, the lack of teachers in making online courses.
• 1:21:09
  SPEAKER_02: And one thing that Mariah and I feel really strongly about is the lack of trauma-aware practitioners in the coaching industry.
• 1:21:18
  SPEAKER_02: And the line between coaching and therapy is razor thin, and it is it requires a lot of awareness and integrity and um understanding.
• 1:21:28
  SPEAKER_02: We've actually done a couple episodes this season on about being a more trauma-informed informed practitioner.
• 1:21:33
  SPEAKER_02: But Mariah actually just did a program from, if you don't mind me sharing Mariah, Topsy.
• 1:21:38
  SPEAKER_02: That was her, she she is um a therapist, right?
• 1:21:41
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, yeah, I know who you're talking about.
• 1:21:43
  SPEAKER_02: She's bringing in that, like, hey, just like there's a research-backed, we know ways about teaching, there's ways to coach and to be aware of it and to know when to send people to someone who, hey, you need to go talk to a therapist.
• 1:21:58
  SPEAKER_02: You know, just having that awareness is very important to truly be supportive for people and appropriate and know where to draw boundaries about my expertise ends here.
• 1:22:06
  SPEAKER_02: And maybe you could go talk to somebody.
• 1:22:08
  SPEAKER_02: I think that that is important and missing as well.
• 1:22:13
  SPEAKER_02: And I don't know, Mariah, would you share a little bit about like what you took away from that experience?
• 1:22:16
  SPEAKER_02: If yeah, am I making that up?
• 1:22:18
  SPEAKER_02: Is that related?
• 1:22:18
  SPEAKER_01: No, no, no, you're not making it up.
• 1:22:20
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, and we're actually gonna have Topsy on the podcast.
• 1:22:23
  SPEAKER_01: I don't know if it's gonna be this season or next season.
• 1:22:25
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but yeah, I reached out to her and I was like, I just I feel like this is such an important conversation because she really focuses on like emotional intelligence and being able to discern the difference between therapy and coaching because there can be blurred lines there.
• 1:22:41
  SPEAKER_01: And she, in the program that I took with her, it was uh destroy the mindset drama.
• 1:22:46
  SPEAKER_01: And it was like this approach to mindset, to learning about it for clients in a way that's like backed by research and like clinical studies and like science and things like that, and like what is ethical for us to talk about as a coach and what is not fucking ethical for us to talk about, and how we can support not only ourselves and the onboarding process, but also our clients and making them really fucking aware of like where the lines are because like I think mindset is so vague, like it covers a lot, like literally entire human existence is fucking mindset because like that's how we can be mindset.
• 1:23:27
  SPEAKER_02: And that's what I was thinking when Alex, I was like, where what is mindset really?
• 1:23:31
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, like anything can be mindset.
• 1:23:34
  SPEAKER_01: And Alex, you're absolutely right, it can be weaponized in order to manipulate, in order to make you feel smaller, in order to make you feel shame.
• 1:23:45
  SPEAKER_01: But I think that in the online space, I think just working with clients, we have to be aware of mindset because it's like it's communication.
• 1:23:56
  SPEAKER_01: And like when you hire a coach, I personally, like my opinion, I don't think that they have to have like a therapy background in order for you to be a coach and to support somebody through a mindset issue.
• 1:24:07
  SPEAKER_01: I think that it is important to know the line of when it is okay and when it is not okay.
• 1:24:12
  SPEAKER_01: But like in a coaching relationship, just conversations and like uncovering your bias, uncovering perspective, seeing your own roadblocks, like to me, that is working through your mindset.
• 1:24:23
  SPEAKER_01: But I think that it's like the coach needs to be fucking transparent.
• 1:24:28
  SPEAKER_01: The service provider needs to be transparent.
• 1:24:31
  SPEAKER_01: They need to give a little bit more details, like mindset.
• 1:24:35
  SPEAKER_01: What do you mean about mindset?
• 1:24:36
  SPEAKER_01: Are you gonna help me increase my confidence?
• 1:24:38
  SPEAKER_01: Like, how is it through like supporting me?
• 1:24:42
  SPEAKER_01: Are you more of a cheerleader?
• 1:24:43
  SPEAKER_01: Are you more curious?
• 1:24:44
  SPEAKER_01: Are you gonna ask questions?
• 1:24:45
  SPEAKER_01: Like, what does that look like?
• 1:24:47
  SPEAKER_01: Because, like, for me personally, I don't need a cheerleader.
• 1:24:51
  SPEAKER_01: I would need somebody that like reflects back to me, like, hey, you said this and it's not aligning with what you said that you wanted.
• 1:24:59
  SPEAKER_01: Or no, I'm seeing this perspective.
• 1:25:01
  SPEAKER_01: Does this align?
• 1:25:02
  SPEAKER_01: Do you want to talk about it?
• 1:25:03
  SPEAKER_01: Because me verbalize to rationalize and just the awareness in itself is really healing for me.
• 1:25:09
  SPEAKER_01: And I think that that's why like I fucking love this podcast and being able to have these conversations and stuff.
• 1:25:14
  SPEAKER_01: But like it's I I think it honestly comes down to getting clear on intentions and like being fucking transparent and honest with yourself.
• 1:25:24
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 1:25:25
  SPEAKER_00: I I think um you're you're right on with the the conversation about needing to just set those expectations and be more clear.
• 1:25:34
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and maybe maybe I just I do have a bias like viewpoint or view on the word mindset because it's just like this weaponized buzzword that's been used.
• 1:25:44
  SPEAKER_02: The weirdness the weirdness these days, yeah, exactly.
• 1:25:47
  SPEAKER_01: That's why because everybody's popping up that like they're a mindset this and a mindset that, and they can help you with this.
• 1:25:53
  SPEAKER_01: And I'm just like, yo, but like your Instagram stories, like you're projected all over the fucking place.
• 1:25:58
  SPEAKER_01: Like, I don't know if I want you to help me with my mindset.
• 1:26:01
  SPEAKER_01: I like my mindset compared to your mindset.
• 1:26:03
  SPEAKER_00: Like, I get both exactly.
• 1:26:05
  SPEAKER_00: But I think um a point to bring up, you know, as a part of the awareness conversation is that yes, being more clear, like breaking down what is what is mindset in your program, like what does that really mean?
• 1:26:17
  SPEAKER_00: Like what roadblocks specific to what you're teaching me are we gonna be covering?
• 1:26:22
  SPEAKER_00: That would be obviously very helpful, but also recognizing to you know, kind of circle back to everyone learns differently, but also acknowledging different um privileges that certain people have.
• 1:26:35
  SPEAKER_00: And that just because something worked for you doesn't mean it's gonna work for them.
• 1:26:39
  SPEAKER_00: So that's why I do sort of have not a problem with DIY courses or self-paced courses, but when self-paced courses are venturing into the mindset territory, I do have a problem with that.
• 1:26:51
  SPEAKER_00: If it's not like a one-to-one coaching capacity, that to me, it doesn't make sense to cover those things, maybe on a surface level, but going anywhere deep on a self-paced course, that to me is dangerous because not everyone's in the same place, whether it's mentally or just their role in life.
• 1:27:11
  SPEAKER_00: Um, they may not be set up for success in the same way that you were to get to this point that you're trying to coach them to in a very passive way.
• 1:27:19
  SPEAKER_00: So it's just such, yeah, it's such a dangerous gray area that does need a lot more like magnifying and being very specific on setting those expectations and boundaries.
• 1:27:29
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 1:27:30
  SPEAKER_01: And Topsy gave a really good, I hate like uh Topsy, if you're listening, I'm sorry, I'm literally like fucking regurgitating all of your words.
• 1:27:37
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but she basically like her approach, what got me really interested in the program was like using evidence based methods, not just coaching based on experience.
• 1:27:48
  SPEAKER_01: And like she was able to explain like what that looks like, but that that's exactly it.
• 1:27:51
  SPEAKER_01: Like a lot of people, and we kind of talked about this in the beginning.
• 1:27:54
  SPEAKER_01: It's like you learn something from one coach, and then it's like you implement it in your own life and think that now you've done.
• 1:28:00
  SPEAKER_01: It once for yourself, and now you can charge an infinite amount of money because everybody else is charging an infinite amount of money for it.
• 1:28:07
  SPEAKER_01: But it's like your teachings are based on your own experience instead of being more evidence-based.
• 1:28:12
  SPEAKER_01: And like obviously, I do think it's a le a little easier to do that with strategy than mindset.
• 1:28:19
  SPEAKER_01: Like mindset really needs to be fucking evidence-based because like there's a lot of what's the word, ramifications that can like come from like yeah, there's there's definitely a lot of things that can happen if you're not taking an evidence-based approach, especially in a relationship with another human being.
• 1:28:36
  SPEAKER_01: And um yeah, yeah, I lost my train of thought, but that's it.
• 1:28:42
  SPEAKER_02: No, I think that's great.
• 1:28:43
  SPEAKER_02: Um, Alex, I want to be respectful of your time.
• 1:28:45
  SPEAKER_02: Do you have a minute to go over with us?
• 1:28:47
  SPEAKER_02: Um, we won't go on much longer, but I just want to make sure.
• 1:28:49
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, yeah, yeah.
• 1:28:50
  SPEAKER_00: That's that's completely fine.
• 1:28:51
  SPEAKER_00: And it actually made me think of one more thing that uh I wanted to talk about that's specific.
• 1:28:56
  SPEAKER_00: Maybe it's specific to the design industry, but um something I I see a lot in going back to the the idea of these people that are taking courses and then turning around and regurgitating and teaching that, whether it's in a course they're or program they already have, or just creating a brand new course based, like like identical to what they just learned.
• 1:29:15
  SPEAKER_00: Um, a lot of the times when people do that, they charge more, like typically double what the person they just learned it from is charging.
• 1:29:26
  SPEAKER_00: Um interesting.
• 1:29:27
  SPEAKER_00: And that that's really just common that I've seen in the design industry.
• 1:29:31
  SPEAKER_00: And it's just like not only did you learn this thing or learn, you know, air quotes, uh, this thing that you're gonna turn around and teach, but now you're gonna charge double the price with what justification, especially considering you haven't mastered the skill that you're now teaching to other people.
• 1:29:47
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and so there the mindset conversation is interesting because we're talking about the ramifications of that.
• 1:29:53
  SPEAKER_00: And you know, obviously that's a personal that can affect business owners on a personal level.
• 1:29:59
  SPEAKER_00: But what I see in my industry and what drives me to talk about these things so much is just the ramifications I see on the service we are providing, and specifically in design, um, there's so much more uh monetary focus, there's so much more urgency focus, even in just the service providing itself.
• 1:30:20
  SPEAKER_00: Like the time frames for things are getting so much quicker, and we're just trying to like push things mediocrity down people's throat really fast for a quick buck and like hit that six-figure number.
• 1:30:30
  SPEAKER_00: And there's those are the kind of like negative impacts that all and it all ties back to this scaling model, this course creation, all this coaching that we're receiving.
• 1:30:39
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and and the biggest problem of all that to me, I don't have a necessarily defined solution for all that, but all I will say is like reflect like what where's your passion?
• 1:30:50
  SPEAKER_00: Like, do you care about the industry that you're in?
• 1:30:52
  SPEAKER_00: Like when you're thinking about these courses that you're creating or how you're gonna hit these big numbers for you know by creating this group program.
• 1:30:59
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, so many of us say, Oh, I'm I started this business to make an impact.
• 1:31:04
  SPEAKER_00: Um, is that impact to people's wallets?
• 1:31:06
  SPEAKER_00: Because you're doing that, but are you actually pushing the needle forward in their business?
• 1:31:11
  SPEAKER_00: Are you actually making an impact in their life or in their business?
• 1:31:14
  SPEAKER_00: Um I just feel like that that's where we need to just like ground ourselves and and root back to why the F are we doing this, you know?
• 1:31:24
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and I I just see so many people getting lost in the sauce when it when it comes to design and just completely leaving that passion.
• 1:31:31
  SPEAKER_00: Um, oh, and one last thing that makes me think of too is uh these speaking of the monetary side of things and in selling these courses, a lot of the designers will say that they're we'll use six figures for an example.
• 1:31:44
  SPEAKER_00: Usually it's higher than that.
• 1:31:45
  SPEAKER_00: Um say they're making six figures and you can do it too from your design business, not being transparent about the fact that half, if not more, of that money is coming from the course creation or the course selling itself.
• 1:31:57
  SPEAKER_03: Yep.
• 1:31:57
  SPEAKER_00: Um and so yeah.
• 1:32:00
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, yes, which is why so many of them go completely abandon design altogether and just go into teaching about design or whatever the industry, um, is because there's it's a booming industry of course creation and education online business.
• 1:32:16
  SPEAKER_00: Um, so yeah, there's plenty of money to be made there, but you're completely just like leaving behind your passion and you're trying to teach people how to make money off of this passion when you yourself aren't even doing it anymore or you've left it because of the money.
• 1:32:31
  SPEAKER_00: Um, so that whole side of it, like that's just a whole other conversation in itself.
• 1:32:35
  SPEAKER_00: But I see a lot of that as well.
• 1:32:39
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, you know, one thing that I'm like pulling the pieces together on, I was thinking about like I write sales pages, you know, what can I do to be better?
• 1:32:48
  SPEAKER_02: And I do think like the idea of like connecting, getting people to detach from the numbers and connect to the bigger why behind like, what are what are you doing here?
• 1:32:58
  SPEAKER_02: What is it that really lights your fire in a sustainable way?
• 1:33:02
  SPEAKER_02: Because just six figure years is someone else's goal.
• 1:33:06
  SPEAKER_02: Is that really what lights your fire, you know?
• 1:33:08
  SPEAKER_02: And if it is, perhaps we're not even a great fit to be working with each other.
• 1:33:11
  SPEAKER_02: Um, but I'm thinking like one thing I admired about Topsy's sales page was in I think I like this now when I see this on a sales page these days, it's a green light for me.
• 1:33:22
  SPEAKER_02: When the person says, I'm going to help you develop your own approach.
• 1:33:26
  SPEAKER_02: So, like, yes, I'm going to teach you the way I did it, but I'm less concerned about you copying me.
• 1:33:32
  SPEAKER_02: And I'm more concerned about helping you figure out how this works for you.
• 1:33:36
  SPEAKER_02: Because if there's like one horse on this podcast, I want to be to death, it's that you can never just rinse and repeat somebody's process.
• 1:33:43
  SPEAKER_02: And everybody is trying to sell you this step by step, follow these steps and make it up to the top of the mountain.
• 1:33:50
  SPEAKER_02: But they followed that process for themselves at a late past point in time when the economy was different and the market was different.
• 1:33:58
  SPEAKER_02: So you can never just take somebody's steps and rinse and repeat them, even though that's what we really want to do.
• 1:34:03
  SPEAKER_02: Really, the trick is how do I make this work for me?
• 1:34:06
  SPEAKER_02: How do I take in all this info, filter it through my strengths and how I like to work and what works for me, and then develop my own approach?
• 1:34:13
  SPEAKER_02: And I yeah, I when I see a person telling me, like, I'm the guru on top of the mountain and I'm gonna tell you what to do, this is the way to do it because this is what works for me, as opposed to no, I'm gonna help you figure this out for you.
• 1:34:26
  SPEAKER_02: That that's the piece that I really like these days of someone's like really acknowledging what the real value and skill is, which is teaching me to fish instead of handing me a fish.
• 1:34:35
  SPEAKER_02: And I think that is a really nice nuance thing when I see that.
• 1:34:40
  SPEAKER_02: This is uh usually good stuff.
• 1:34:42
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah, I love that too.
• 1:34:44
  SPEAKER_01: And I I think we we talk about that quite often on the podcast.
• 1:34:48
  SPEAKER_01: And it's honestly one of the biggest foundational pieces, right?
• 1:34:50
  SPEAKER_01: It's like being curiously guided to figure out like what the fuck works for you, because like what works for me isn't gonna work for you in the same way at the same time that it worked for me.
• 1:35:01
  SPEAKER_01: And I just wanted to make a little, a little note here because I I feel like we talked about so many topics that like are pretty controversial.
• 1:35:12
  SPEAKER_01: And it's kind of just like just know that this is only this is a short conversation that needs to that needs to be had.
• 1:35:20
  SPEAKER_01: And like all of us have we have different perspectives about each of these different things.
• 1:35:24
  SPEAKER_01: And like we said over and over again, context matters.
• 1:35:27
  SPEAKER_01: So it's like, keep that in mind.
• 1:35:29
  SPEAKER_01: And I did want to give some, I don't know, some insight as to like what helped me when it comes to like you learn something from somebody else and you're super fucking excited.
• 1:35:39
  SPEAKER_01: It really resonated with you, and you're like, how can I start implementing this in my own business?
• 1:35:44
  SPEAKER_01: I think that this is important because like as humans, that's how we learn, that's how we grow, right?
• 1:35:49
  SPEAKER_01: And so I think that like it is normal to, as we learn as we grow, to then change up our process and incorporate the things into our process if they aligned correctly.
• 1:36:01
  SPEAKER_01: And so, like the example that I can give is like human design.
• 1:36:05
  SPEAKER_01: I have been obsessed with human design, but I never, I was like, I'm not an expert.
• 1:36:09
  SPEAKER_01: I can't turn around and offer like fucking business coaching only on human design.
• 1:36:13
  SPEAKER_01: And like I just, it didn't feel like I knew enough, like I had enough experience in order to feel really grounded in that.
• 1:36:21
  SPEAKER_01: So what helped me was like, because I'm always I'm somebody that can get too stuck in the no, I need to know more, I need to know more, I need to know more.
• 1:36:30
  SPEAKER_01: I'm not good at anything, I need to know more.
• 1:36:32
  SPEAKER_01: I'm not an expert yet.
• 1:36:34
  SPEAKER_01: So it's like finding that balance of like, how can we know enough and then allow ourselves to test and tweak with it?
• 1:36:40
  SPEAKER_01: And what helps with me that I just did a few months ago was just a beta launch of something.
• 1:36:46
  SPEAKER_01: I was like, I send an email onto my list, and I was like, yo, I am fucking zooming on human design right now.
• 1:36:52
  SPEAKER_01: If you guys are interested, I would love to do like an intuitive marketing coaching session.
• 1:36:57
  SPEAKER_01: It's at like a super low price compared to all of my other stuff.
• 1:37:00
  SPEAKER_01: I'm just testing and tweaking.
• 1:37:02
  SPEAKER_01: I want your feedback.
• 1:37:03
  SPEAKER_01: I can regurgitate and like let you know what helped me, how I learned how to integrate.
• 1:37:08
  SPEAKER_01: And like it was through those sessions that I was able to better understand my position in terms of human design.
• 1:37:17
  SPEAKER_01: But if I would have been stuck in the knowledge cycle, it like my knowledge would have stopped there.
• 1:37:23
  SPEAKER_01: So it's like, how can you allow yourself to test and tweak and get like live feedback from people, find out what's helpful, find out what's not without charging.
• 1:37:35
  SPEAKER_01: I like it didn't feel right for me to charge the same as I do for an SEO strategy intensive because I've been doing SEO for fucking years.
• 1:37:43
  SPEAKER_01: So it's like, I think that there are ways to be compensated for your curiosity, for your knowledge and for your experience and for how you've learned to integrate.
• 1:37:55
  SPEAKER_01: But I think that it's still a very personal thing that you need to be transparent about.
• 1:38:02
  SPEAKER_02: No doubt.
• 1:38:03
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 1:38:03
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I think I completely agree.
• 1:38:05
  SPEAKER_00: And I think you both talked hit on this during this conversation today, which is just being it's okay to not be an expert because really who decides?
• 1:38:15
  SPEAKER_00: You know, it's all we all have imposter syndrome, we've all been doing it for a different amount of time.
• 1:38:19
  SPEAKER_00: And even if we've both been doing the same thing for seven years, my experience is going to be different from yours.
• 1:38:24
  SPEAKER_00: Maybe you're a little bit past me and what the types of projects you've taken on or the types of clients you've taken on, whatever the case.
• 1:38:31
  SPEAKER_00: But it all comes down to the two big words in this conversation, which is transparency and authenticity.
• 1:38:38
  SPEAKER_00: Like being okay with admitting that you don't know it all and that this is where I'm at.
• 1:38:44
  SPEAKER_00: If you're willing to meet me there and you want to grow with me and learn with me, cool.
• 1:38:48
  SPEAKER_00: Like let's let's grow together, like let's do that.
• 1:38:51
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and yeah, there's there's room to charge for that if people are willing to jump on board.
• 1:38:56
  SPEAKER_00: Is because if you're transparent with them and they still want to pay you to be on that ride, cool.
• 1:39:01
  SPEAKER_00: Like there no one's being manipulated at that point.
• 1:39:03
  SPEAKER_00: Everything's out in the open and you're gonna see where it takes you.
• 1:39:06
  SPEAKER_00: And I do think that that kind of beta launch and that growing together is the way to do it because then you're gonna get truly honest feedback from these people.
• 1:39:14
  SPEAKER_00: Like it was a low investment, they're they're just seeing how it goes with you, and they're gonna say, Hey, I took a lot from this, this was really great, or they're gonna be like, dude, you don't know enough.
• 1:39:23
  SPEAKER_00: Like, you don't know what you're talking about.
• 1:39:25
  SPEAKER_00: This did nothing for me.
• 1:39:26
  SPEAKER_00: Like, I feel like people are a lot more willing to be honest with you when you're honest with them.
• 1:39:30
  SPEAKER_02: So that's a great point.
• 1:39:33
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I agree.
• 1:39:35
  SPEAKER_01: I think this conversation was lovely.
• 1:39:37
  SPEAKER_02: Oh my gosh, it was insane.
• 1:39:39
  SPEAKER_02: We could have like a whole podcast series, I feel about like all the different side roads we could have gone down.
• 1:39:44
  SPEAKER_02: Um, it feels big.
• 1:39:47
  SPEAKER_02: So, Alex, thanks for going there with us.
• 1:39:49
  SPEAKER_02: This was insane, a really cool conversation.
• 1:39:52
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah, of course.
• 1:39:53
  SPEAKER_00: And I do want to close it out by saying that, like, you know, kind of what Mariah was saying, uh, it's not this is just a dialogue, like this is just a conversation, this is a round table discussion type of thing.
• 1:40:05
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, yes, we're probably there are triggers in here.
• 1:40:09
  SPEAKER_00: They're offensive, people are going to be offended by different things that we discuss in this podcast.
• 1:40:13
  SPEAKER_00: But I would say if you're if you find you're triggered by any of this or offended by any of this, that's a sign.
• 1:40:19
  SPEAKER_00: Like listen to that, because that's telling you, oh, this is a sticky area for me that I need to visit and realize or you know, dive deep into why is this triggering me?
• 1:40:31
  SPEAKER_00: Um, because maybe you have been, you know, manipulated in some form.
• 1:40:37
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and so that's something that you want to kind of focus in on.
• 1:40:40
  SPEAKER_00: But it there's so this is all kind of been a pretty dark negative conversation on all of these things, which is fine.
• 1:40:47
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but again, blanket statement.
• 1:40:49
  SPEAKER_00: It's not to say that courses are bad, that teachers are bad, that online business is bad, making money's bad.
• 1:40:55
  SPEAKER_00: None of that's true.
• 1:40:56
  SPEAKER_00: Like it's all okay.
• 1:40:58
  SPEAKER_00: It's more about just reflection, being aware, self-regulating our industries, um, since no one's going to do that for us.
• 1:41:05
  SPEAKER_00: And MLMs get brought up a lot, like pyramid schemes and things like that.
• 1:41:09
  SPEAKER_00: And it makes me think of uh all of these like old like housewives MLMs that used to exist that weren't cracked down on, there was no regulation.
• 1:41:18
  SPEAKER_00: But then 20 years later, oh, FBI is cracking down, like people are going after you.
• 1:41:24
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and you have this whole wave and list of victims that have fallen prey in your path.
• 1:41:31
  SPEAKER_00: And so just be aware of that.
• 1:41:32
  SPEAKER_00: Like, yeah, there's no such thing as a get rich quick scheme, and there and it needs to be um something that's ethical and it's gonna take time.
• 1:41:43
  SPEAKER_00: And if you're doing it the wrong way now, you may not be getting caught or getting in trouble now, but it doesn't mean you won't down the road.
• 1:41:50
  SPEAKER_00: So just something to keep in mind.
• 1:41:53
  SPEAKER_00: If if if you truly have no moral compass and the ethical part doesn't bother you, just know that people aren't gonna sit by and let this happen forever.
• 1:42:03
  SPEAKER_00: So that's all I got.
• 1:42:07
  SPEAKER_02: I love that.
• 1:42:07
  SPEAKER_02: Thanks for pulling it all together.
• 1:42:09
  SPEAKER_02: Um, you know, thanks for this really lively conversation.
• 1:42:13
  SPEAKER_02: Um, Alex, we like this is gonna be a hard left, but we like to ask our guests a final question if you're open for it.
• 1:42:21
  SPEAKER_02: Uh, what in life or business has been making you feel curious lately?
• 1:42:26
  SPEAKER_02: Where are you finding your interests and you're losing time, like diving deep into something?
• 1:42:31
  SPEAKER_02: What's that look like right now?
• 1:42:33
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, that's a good question.
• 1:42:35
  SPEAKER_00: Um, I think for me, because I've been kind of, I haven't fallen completely victim to like a cult-esque uh anything, thankfully.
• 1:42:46
  SPEAKER_00: But I have been in this online business space for so long and I dove into it right after college, and I've never really had a normal agency design job or normal design job of any kind.
• 1:42:57
  SPEAKER_00: So I've actually been really curious about what would it be like to just get like a normal design job and not that I'd ever burn my business to the ground or anything.
• 1:43:05
  SPEAKER_00: I would always keep it alive on the side, but um, I've just been really curious to know like what other I'm not burnt out by design by any means.
• 1:43:13
  SPEAKER_00: I love what I do and I'm gonna continue doing it, but I I am in a very curious place in my life right now.
• 1:43:18
  SPEAKER_00: And maybe it was COVID, maybe it was, you know, the the great reset or whatever they're calling it.
• 1:43:24
  SPEAKER_00: But I just I I I'm in a very um curious and um discovery phase of my life.
• 1:43:34
  SPEAKER_00: Uh it feels like a new milestone or a new chapter where I'm like, what's next?
• 1:43:39
  SPEAKER_00: You know, like I want I still love design, I love visuals, I want to do this for the rest of my life.
• 1:43:43
  SPEAKER_00: I know that.
• 1:43:44
  SPEAKER_00: But do I have to keep doing it the exact same way I've been doing it this for many, many years now?
• 1:43:49
  SPEAKER_00: Um, so yeah, that that's been an interesting journey for me.
• 1:43:52
  SPEAKER_00: I don't know what that's gonna look like or where it's gonna take me, but just being open to you know what what comes my way and um not not not letting someone else tell me how I have to run my business or what it has to look like and just trying to redefine redefine success for myself.
• 1:44:09
  SPEAKER_01: So amen.
• 1:44:11
  SPEAKER_01: I've been thinking about that a lot.
• 1:44:13
  SPEAKER_01: We love a good curious season in life full of discovery.
• 1:44:18
  SPEAKER_01: We love that.
• 1:44:20
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, um I I also yeah, um I'm glad that you brought that other side of it up.
• 1:44:27
  SPEAKER_01: We don't really hear that talked about of just like what would it be like to work in an agency?
• 1:44:34
  SPEAKER_01: Like, that's fun, that's a fun idea to play with.
• 1:44:37
  SPEAKER_01: But I feel like so many people just like shut out.
• 1:44:40
  SPEAKER_01: Like, no, they'd be selling out to the man.
• 1:44:42
  SPEAKER_01: And it's like, yeah, but you're allowed to be fucking curious about it.
• 1:44:45
  SPEAKER_01: You can literally do whatever you want to do, go work at an agency, and if you hate it, quit.
• 1:44:50
  SPEAKER_01: Like, who the fuck cares?
• 1:44:52
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, there's so much shame in like uh quote unquote normal jobs, you know, within the online business space.
• 1:44:58
  SPEAKER_00: It's like you're either a full-time online business owner, entrepreneur, hustle, or you're not.
• 1:45:03
  SPEAKER_00: And it's like, no, you can be both, you can have a side hustle, you can be part-time, you can be whatever you want to be, as cheesy as that sounds.
• 1:45:11
  SPEAKER_01: That's right.
• 1:45:12
  SPEAKER_01: It ain't cheesy when it's true, you know what I mean?
• 1:45:15
  SPEAKER_00: Put that on a t-shirt.
• 1:45:18
  SPEAKER_01: Exactly.
• 1:45:19
  SPEAKER_02: Well, earlier in the season, we had Prion, who's another SEO expert.
• 1:45:22
  SPEAKER_02: And I asked her, she left, she had the online business, left and went in the corporate world, and then came back.
• 1:45:28
  SPEAKER_02: And I kind of asked her, like, oh, you went to the corporate world, like, what was that the right choice?
• 1:45:33
  SPEAKER_02: It's expecting her to say no, because obviously I came back.
• 1:45:36
  SPEAKER_02: But instead, she said it was the best choice at that time.
• 1:45:40
  SPEAKER_02: And it it has allowed me to elevate my business.
• 1:45:43
  SPEAKER_02: Like, I was able to take a step away, get introduced, like open my brain to new levels of this.
• 1:45:49
  SPEAKER_02: And then now I'm coming back and doing my business in a totally different way.
• 1:45:52
  SPEAKER_02: And I could have never got there on my own.
• 1:45:54
  SPEAKER_02: And I was like, wow, thinking about life and seasons and chapters.
• 1:45:58
  SPEAKER_02: Of course, we can go back and forth.
• 1:46:00
  SPEAKER_02: How beautiful is that?
• 1:46:01
  SPEAKER_02: And they can be building on top of each other, not necessarily a step in the wrong direction, you know, how crazy is that?
• 1:46:07
  SPEAKER_02: So I love that perspective.
• 1:46:09
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, that's that's beautiful to hear that someone else had that experience because I feel like that's where life is taking me right now.
• 1:46:15
  SPEAKER_00: So yeah, I'm I'm glad that you just shared that with me.
• 1:46:18
  SPEAKER_02: Listen to her episode.
• 1:46:19
  SPEAKER_02: Honestly, it's been pinging around in my head too.
• 1:46:21
  SPEAKER_02: I was like, because it wasn't what I was expecting, and I was like, oh duh, what a what a great thing.
• 1:46:25
  SPEAKER_02: So her name's Pre P R I.
• 1:46:27
  SPEAKER_02: It was a good one.
• 1:46:28
  SPEAKER_00: Cool.
• 1:46:28
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I'll check her out.
• 1:46:29
  SPEAKER_00: Or check out.
• 1:46:30
  SPEAKER_02: Alex, this has been incredible.
• 1:46:31
  SPEAKER_02: Where can we follow along and keep in touch with you after this?
• 1:46:36
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I just um the Routine Creative is my business.
• 1:46:39
  SPEAKER_00: You can find me on Instagram, is usually where I'm hanging out, although less these days now that it's becoming TikTok.
• 1:46:45
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and also just yeah, my website, theroutinecreative.com.
• 1:46:48
  SPEAKER_00: I offer, you know, brand and web design.
• 1:46:51
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but I also have lots of random thoughts and conversations like this that I'm throwing out in the Instagram world with no real expectations or monetary anything to gain from it, just conversations that I want to see within uh online business.
• 1:47:07
  SPEAKER_00: So if you're interested in those types of conversations, go give me a follow and jump in my DMs and we can uh we can chat about it.
• 1:47:14
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, we're definitely gonna leave the links to all of that stuff in the show notes.
• 1:47:18
  SPEAKER_01: Alex, honestly, thank you again for just like this.
• 1:47:22
  SPEAKER_01: Has been for for me personally, obviously, I'm not gonna speak for you guys, but like a really fucking vulnerable conversation.
• 1:47:29
  SPEAKER_01: And like I have never publicly said a lot of these things, and it had me like my heart was racing for for like a little a little bit in there.
• 1:47:37
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, but I I think that it's it's just so needed and it's such a great reminder that like we're allowed to learn as we go.
• 1:47:46
  SPEAKER_01: We are allowed to allowed to have these conversations and we can have them in a in a safe space, even if people don't agree, because we're all allowed to have different perspectives and opinions.
• 1:47:56
  SPEAKER_01: And like this was this was really, really great.
• 1:47:59
  SPEAKER_01: And yeah, I just want to thank you again.
• 1:48:01
  SPEAKER_00: Works.
• 1:48:02
  SPEAKER_00: Thanks for having me.
• 1:48:03
  SPEAKER_00: And beautifully said, couldn't say it better myself.
• 1:48:06
  SPEAKER_01: All right, cool.
• 1:48:07
  SPEAKER_01: I think we're gonna close this episode down.
• 1:48:09
  SPEAKER_01: If you guys enjoyed this episode, feel free to share it with somebody that you think would love it.
• 1:48:14
  SPEAKER_01: Take a little screenshot, share it on social media, tag us.
• 1:48:17
  SPEAKER_01: And if something really popped out to you, totally DM us, any of us.
• 1:48:22
  SPEAKER_01: We love connecting with you guys.
• 1:48:24
  SPEAKER_02: And as always, thank you so much for listening and for your support.
• 1:48:28
  SPEAKER_02: If you haven't yet, subscribe to the podcast and leave us a five-star review so we can all continue, or whatever star you want to leave us, so we can all continue to grow together.
• 1:48:37
  SPEAKER_02: And until next time, remember that you have the power to create whatever the hell you want.
• 1:48:41
  SPEAKER_02: Follow the nudge, ask questions, and let curiosity be your guide.
• 1:48:45
  SPEAKER_02: We'll see you in the next episode.