Latest / WoT Spoilers / Into Cairhien & Gateways - Towers of Midnight chapters 52 & 53 - EP578

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Into Cairhien & Gateways - Towers of Midnight chapters 52 & 53 - EP578 · WoT Spoilers

• 0:12
  Speaker 1: This is the Wheel of Time Spoilers podcast. Happy birthday
• 0:23
  Speaker 1: to the podcast.
• 0:25
  Speaker 2: Yes, yeah, thank you. Nine years.
• 0:28
  Speaker 1: Holy crap, dude, nine years, nine years.
• 0:34
  Speaker 2: And for those of you hearing this recording, it's a
• 0:36
  Speaker 2: little bit longer, but like, yeah, nine years is.
• 0:39
  Speaker 1: Nine years to the day of us recording of you
• 0:42
  Speaker 1: releasing the first episode.
• 0:44
  Speaker 2: Yes, yes, so we are currently recording on April twenty first,
• 0:48
  Speaker 2: twenty twenty six, and the first episode of Lot Spoilers
• 0:53
  Speaker 2: was published on April twenty first, twenty seventeen.
• 0:59
  Speaker 1: That's like.
• 1:01
  Speaker 2: So long ago, it feels like a lifetime. So it
• 1:04
  Speaker 2: feels like a lifetime.
• 1:05
  Speaker 1: That's before I changed majors, that's before COVID, that's.
• 1:13
  Speaker 2: That's before a lot of things personally, I mean. So, yeah,
• 1:18
  Speaker 2: it's been it's been a ride, it sure has.
• 1:21
  Speaker 1: And also it's worth really starting to mention that that
• 1:25
  Speaker 1: means we are one year from the end.
• 1:29
  Speaker 2: But yes, that's the goal.
• 1:30
  Speaker 1: Yeah, our goal is to massage the podcast to conclude
• 1:35
  Speaker 1: on its tenth birthday. So we are a year from
• 1:40
  Speaker 1: the end of this project.
• 1:41
  Speaker 2: Plan subject to change, like no guarantees there.
• 1:45
  Speaker 1: But that's the plan, which is wild. We have plans
• 1:50
  Speaker 1: for for how our creative energy will continue to exist. Obviously,
• 1:55
  Speaker 1: we've got Dungeon, Color, Carl Podcast, et cetera, et cetera.
• 1:59
  Speaker 1: We're not going anywhere just in a year. But like,
• 2:02
  Speaker 1: this project has to find a natural conclusion point and
• 2:04
  Speaker 1: we're aiming for it to be on its Ted birthday,
• 2:07
  Speaker 1: give or take. And uh, yeah, that's a whole thing.
• 2:11
  Speaker 2: And that should work out because we've got three or
• 2:13
  Speaker 2: four episodes left of this book and then we have
• 2:16
  Speaker 2: the final book of the series and New Spring and
• 2:20
  Speaker 2: New Spring, but new Spring's quite short. I think we're
• 2:22
  Speaker 2: gonna try and record that between the books.
• 2:25
  Speaker 1: Yeah, we're still figuring it out, but like just letting
• 2:29
  Speaker 1: all the autistics out there.
• 2:30
  Speaker 2: Know change is coming.
• 2:33
  Speaker 1: You gotta start bracing for change.
• 2:35
  Speaker 2: It'll probably be about a year, but yeah, I kind
• 2:38
  Speaker 2: of expect us to because I do feel like, even
• 2:44
  Speaker 2: going back and reading Eye of the World and saying
• 2:47
  Speaker 2: this is brilliant, I don't have anything else to say
• 2:50
  Speaker 2: about I of the World.
• 2:51
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean I don't know that I do either,
• 2:55
  Speaker 1: because like I listen to those episodes and engaged with
• 2:58
  Speaker 1: the fandom of this show and found the fandom through
• 3:02
  Speaker 1: processing like in those early books of the pod that like, yeah,
• 3:06
  Speaker 1: I thought I wanted to redo it, but then it's
• 3:09
  Speaker 1: also like you got to move on and forward with
• 3:12
  Speaker 1: your life, and I don't. I don't actually know if
• 3:14
  Speaker 1: going back to that is what's right for me. I
• 3:17
  Speaker 1: have other stuff I need to do, and I.
• 3:19
  Speaker 2: Like the idea of there being an episode per chapter,
• 3:22
  Speaker 2: and even if some of those episodes are highly imperfect.
• 3:27
  Speaker 1: Yeah, just going back and fixing the bad ones would
• 3:29
  Speaker 1: be an impossible ridiculous Yeah, it's just it is what
• 3:32
  Speaker 1: it is. Unless I get the itch again in like
• 3:34
  Speaker 1: three years. I mean, who fucking knows.
• 3:35
  Speaker 2: Maybe something is to leave it alone. But yeah, I
• 3:39
  Speaker 2: do think that there is something to be said for
• 3:42
  Speaker 2: making an episode for each chapter and having that one
• 3:46
  Speaker 2: to one or one to two. And in a lot
• 3:47
  Speaker 2: of cases, that's what we had to say about it,
• 3:50
  Speaker 2: and it's it's like remaking Harry Potter. They don't need to.
• 3:54
  Speaker 2: They don't need to.
• 3:55
  Speaker 1: I am a person who is firmly against recreating movies
• 3:59
  Speaker 1: that are already part effect and from our childhood. My
• 4:02
  Speaker 1: most recent rage bait that I saw Fern Gully, a
• 4:07
  Speaker 1: live action remake of fer and Gully, I'm like, was
• 4:10
  Speaker 1: Avatar not enough? For you people like I hate it
• 4:15
  Speaker 1: with my entire being, so yeah, there's something to be
• 4:19
  Speaker 1: said for moving forward. For anyone who is wondering, I
• 4:22
  Speaker 1: think the plan is that we're going to change the
• 4:25
  Speaker 1: Patreon but not close it. The podcast will remain up
• 4:29
  Speaker 1: forever and ever, and we're going to expand what is
• 4:32
  Speaker 1: available there with our other creative endeavors, but we won't
• 4:35
  Speaker 1: be making new episodes of the show, Like, don't worry,
• 4:38
  Speaker 1: We're going to keep talking about it and processing it
• 4:40
  Speaker 1: over the course of the next year with y'all with
• 4:43
  Speaker 1: each other. It's going to be an engaged community process
• 4:46
  Speaker 1: this transition, but it is coming, so just praise yourselves.
• 4:51
  Speaker 1: We're not going to do an nostalgia loop that gets
• 4:53
  Speaker 1: shorter and shorter like a snake eating its own tail.
• 4:55
  Speaker 1: We are going to move forward with the wheel of
• 4:58
  Speaker 1: time and off the wheel of time, break the wheel
• 5:02
  Speaker 1: of time.
• 5:03
  Speaker 2: And this is where again i'd encourage you if you
• 5:06
  Speaker 2: really just want to keep hearing us, go listen to
• 5:08
  Speaker 2: Dungeon Crawler Carl, like, I really like what we're doing
• 5:11
  Speaker 2: over there. We're having a lot of fun with it
• 5:13
  Speaker 2: and it will most likely continue to be going after
• 5:17
  Speaker 2: a year.
• 5:18
  Speaker 1: Yeah, that's going to take us a minute. And I
• 5:22
  Speaker 1: really don't know what I would do with my life
• 5:24
  Speaker 1: without our like Tuesday right recording sessions, and like you know,
• 5:28
  Speaker 1: it's the basis of our friendship and we have this
• 5:31
  Speaker 1: whole vibe and it's like, we'll keep finding books to read.
• 5:34
  Speaker 1: I'm not worried about that. There's a lot of books
• 5:36
  Speaker 1: out there.
• 5:36
  Speaker 2: There's a lot of books out there, and they keep
• 5:38
  Speaker 2: writing new ones.
• 5:38
  Speaker 1: So and they do keep writing new ones. And that's
• 5:41
  Speaker 1: also part of why it's like it might be cool
• 5:43
  Speaker 1: to move on from books that are as old as
• 5:45
  Speaker 1: me maybe read something new.
• 5:47
  Speaker 2: Yeah, and a radio definitely, the idea of a radio
• 5:50
  Speaker 2: recording the first five books, I think that would at
• 5:54
  Speaker 2: one point be interesting.
• 5:55
  Speaker 1: But maybe someday.
• 5:57
  Speaker 2: Yeah, but it would have to be without me, I
• 5:59
  Speaker 2: think as well. I don't think that. Yeah, I don't
• 6:02
  Speaker 2: think that would make sense to have me on there.
• 6:04
  Speaker 1: Yeah, well we'll figure it out.
• 6:08
  Speaker 2: Yeah, are very very encouraging.
• 6:13
  Speaker 1: We appreciate it. But with that all being.
• 6:16
  Speaker 2: Said, let's talk about some boots.
• 6:19
  Speaker 1: Okay. Can we not aside from my little tangent about
• 6:24
  Speaker 1: the actual origin of the real thing, can we just
• 6:27
  Speaker 1: skip the bat part? Oh my god, I got I
• 6:32
  Speaker 1: got surprised. Terry Pratchett in here to make it all better,
• 6:36
  Speaker 1: but like it's.
• 6:37
  Speaker 2: A I think for me what it was is it's
• 6:40
  Speaker 2: not even the Boot speech. It's it's everything approaching going
• 6:43
  Speaker 2: up to the Boots speech that I find the most
• 6:45
  Speaker 2: objectionable about that in this chapter.
• 6:48
  Speaker 1: I hate both parts equally. I know what you mean
• 6:50
  Speaker 1: about how there are two separate pieces of things to hate,
• 6:53
  Speaker 1: but I don't think I could say which one I
• 6:54
  Speaker 1: hate more. I hate them both fair enough. But then
• 6:58
  Speaker 1: we have the very weird thing of the part where
• 7:00
  Speaker 1: the Tower of Genji starts and then we actually end
• 7:02
  Speaker 1: an episode. I literally got into the Tower of Genji
• 7:06
  Speaker 1: part in the second chapter and was like, we're not
• 7:10
  Speaker 1: We're not doing that today. And then I went and
• 7:12
  Speaker 1: looked at our schedules, like, oh my god, it takes
• 7:14
  Speaker 1: three entire chapters.
• 7:16
  Speaker 2: Basically to do the tower.
• 7:17
  Speaker 1: So we're actually, even with the way that we like
• 7:20
  Speaker 1: to clump events, we're still gonna have to have that
• 7:24
  Speaker 1: across two episodes. Okay, let us get started on chapter
• 7:30
  Speaker 1: fifty two. Boots and our symbol is the rising sun
• 7:35
  Speaker 1: of Kyrieen and our read in perspective is a lane
• 7:40
  Speaker 1: taking over kiri In, taken over kiri In. We've waited
• 7:44
  Speaker 1: an anxious hour, right, That's where we left her last
• 7:47
  Speaker 1: was in and Or, and they all said, give us
• 7:49
  Speaker 1: an hour and we'll make everything ready. She said, okay,
• 7:52
  Speaker 1: I'm going to sit here and be anxious for an
• 7:54
  Speaker 1: hour and then we'll do it. Here we are one
• 7:56
  Speaker 1: hour one minute later, Elaine settled herself in glom saddle.
• 8:01
  Speaker 1: The Mayor was one of the prizes of the Royal stable.
• 8:03
  Speaker 1: She was a fine Saldetian stock, with a brilliant white
• 8:06
  Speaker 1: mane and coat. The saddle itself was rich, the leather
• 8:10
  Speaker 1: trimmed with wine, red and gold. It was the sort
• 8:13
  Speaker 1: of saddle you used when parading. Brigida rode rising, a
• 8:17
  Speaker 1: tall dun gelding, also one of the fastest in the
• 8:19
  Speaker 1: Royal stables. The water had chosen both horses she expected
• 8:23
  Speaker 1: to have to run. Brigida wore one of a Lance's
• 8:26
  Speaker 1: fox had copies, though it had a different shape, a
• 8:29
  Speaker 1: thin silver disc with a rose on the front. Elaine
• 8:32
  Speaker 1: carried another wrapped in cloth inside her pocket. She tried
• 8:35
  Speaker 1: making another this morning, but I had melted nearly setting
• 8:38
  Speaker 1: her dresser on fire. She was having a great deal
• 8:40
  Speaker 1: of difficulty without the original to study. Her dreams of
• 8:43
  Speaker 1: arming all of her personal guards with medallions was looking
• 8:46
  Speaker 1: less and less possible unless she somehow managed to persuade
• 8:49
  Speaker 1: Matt to give her the original. Again, I don't really
• 8:52
  Speaker 1: know where to stop.
• 8:53
  Speaker 2: I just.
• 8:55
  Speaker 1: The copies, almost setting her dresser on fire.
• 8:58
  Speaker 2: Well, and I didn't realize that she's not making a
• 9:00
  Speaker 2: Foxhead medallion. She's making a rose medallion, or she's completely
• 9:03
  Speaker 2: altered the shape of it. It doesn't look anything like Matt's
• 9:06
  Speaker 2: medallions anymore.
• 9:08
  Speaker 1: I had also kind of missed that. I had kind
• 9:10
  Speaker 1: of skipped over that. But no, she's making medallions that
• 9:13
  Speaker 1: are not necessarily broadcasting what they are because they don't
• 9:17
  Speaker 1: look like the original. They're subtle, you know, they can
• 9:21
  Speaker 1: just be a decoration that oh it functions like that
• 9:24
  Speaker 1: really distinctive thing that Matt has.
• 9:26
  Speaker 2: And it kind of explains why Teraron Greol often look different.
• 9:29
  Speaker 2: Why they're personalized, right, Like you don't want to advertise
• 9:32
  Speaker 2: necessarily what the Arran greoal does.
• 9:35
  Speaker 1: Right, they're bespoke.
• 9:36
  Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, they very much are kind of like computer
• 9:39
  Speaker 2: functions or computer programs right, Like, you can name it
• 9:42
  Speaker 2: whatever you want, you can make it look like whatever
• 9:43
  Speaker 2: you want, but the functionality is all wrapped up on
• 9:46
  Speaker 2: the inside and the code that's or the magic that's
• 9:48
  Speaker 2: wrapped up inside of it.
• 9:50
  Speaker 1: Yeah. Same with sewing machine models, Like there's not that
• 9:53
  Speaker 1: many things you can change, but there's a lot of
• 9:55
  Speaker 1: different combinations of features. And then to say nothing of
• 9:58
  Speaker 1: the paint colors into cow patterns. Now you've got a
• 10:00
  Speaker 1: bajillion different names, and this one's better than that one,
• 10:03
  Speaker 1: and it's like they're kind of all the time. I'm fine,
• 10:07
  Speaker 1: they all.
• 10:07
  Speaker 2: Stick a needle through cloth while pulling thread.
• 10:09
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean there's a lot that's different, but there's
• 10:13
  Speaker 1: a lot that's marketing. Yes, yes, listen to you to
• 10:16
  Speaker 1: so for.
• 10:17
  Speaker 2: More nice plug, nice plug. And then Brigida this is
• 10:21
  Speaker 2: you're becoming more foolhardy by the day. And then Elaine's response, Oh,
• 10:25
  Speaker 2: come now, this is hardly the most foolhardy thing I've done.
• 10:28
  Speaker 2: I thought that was pretty funny. Oh yeah, I just
• 10:30
  Speaker 2: I don't know.
• 10:31
  Speaker 1: I love that banter there is pretty funny.
• 10:34
  Speaker 2: And just Elaine being this like irresponsible with her own
• 10:37
  Speaker 2: safety thing. I don't know, it's almost like the nod
• 10:40
  Speaker 2: in the wing. So my baby's right, like a little bit, a.
• 10:43
  Speaker 1: Little bit, but it's also buried inside this conversation about
• 10:46
  Speaker 1: Brigado being more irritable, which is something she actively apologizes
• 10:50
  Speaker 1: for once she gets ghosty again. Remember she comes back
• 10:54
  Speaker 1: from Tell Everyone Odd when the horn gets bowed, and
• 10:56
  Speaker 1: she's like, I was being so irritable and ridiculous these
• 10:59
  Speaker 1: last few months. I don't know how you could put
• 11:01
  Speaker 1: up with me. This is one of those moments where
• 11:03
  Speaker 1: Eliene's like, you don't like anything lately, I swear becoming
• 11:06
  Speaker 1: more irritable by the day. Like Brigita actively apologizes for
• 11:10
  Speaker 1: this where she's just a worrying Everything she does is
• 11:15
  Speaker 1: worrying and she's not, you know, gallivanting and free wheeling.
• 11:19
  Speaker 1: And I wonder how much of that is her seeping
• 11:22
  Speaker 1: back into tell IRENERIODD and her kind of splitting.
• 11:27
  Speaker 2: That's I mean, she's losing her mind. Basically, she's losing
• 11:31
  Speaker 2: her memories. She's losing who she is.
• 11:34
  Speaker 1: Yeah, she's losing her memories of Guidle, her memories of
• 11:36
  Speaker 1: who she is. And somehow when she gets reintegrated, it
• 11:39
  Speaker 1: makes her the care free person that she was when
• 11:42
  Speaker 1: we first met her. You don't really realize how diminished
• 11:45
  Speaker 1: she is. But again with the spoilers, it's like, yeah,
• 11:49
  Speaker 1: she really is shrinking in on herself in so many ways.
• 11:53
  Speaker 1: She just worries. That's the only thing she really does,
• 11:57
  Speaker 1: and that's not who we met originally. We met someone
• 11:59
  Speaker 1: who kept breaking the rules. Now she's the most assiduous
• 12:03
  Speaker 1: rule keeper because because she was assigned to keep Elaine
• 12:06
  Speaker 1: and her babies alive, right right, needless worry. But it
• 12:10
  Speaker 1: just it strikes me seeing it here, knowing that she
• 12:13
  Speaker 1: actively calls herself out for that later once she's reintegrated
• 12:16
  Speaker 1: in the dream.
• 12:17
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I kind of saw it her as just sort
• 12:19
  Speaker 2: of like counterbalancing Elayne's carelessness. But now that you mention it, yeah,
• 12:24
  Speaker 2: it because like a loss of herself as well.
• 12:27
  Speaker 1: It's got to be both, right, it can't be just
• 12:29
  Speaker 1: one or the other.
• 12:29
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 12:30
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I thought it was kind of weird when she
• 12:32
  Speaker 1: apologized that. It was like, I'm so sorry for being
• 12:34
  Speaker 1: so annoying, and it's like, I mean, but it was
• 12:36
  Speaker 1: called for.
• 12:37
  Speaker 2: I don't remember that. Yeah, yeah, exactly, like you were
• 12:40
  Speaker 2: trying to keep someone who was completely careless safe.
• 12:44
  Speaker 1: Yeah, so I don't know, it just seemed worth noting
• 12:49
  Speaker 1: here that this is the thing that Brigida on Reflection
• 12:51
  Speaker 1: doesn't like about her behavior while alive. So and yes, Vuji,
• 12:56
  Speaker 1: I do agree that Charles Guibond is going to go
• 12:58
  Speaker 1: gray so because of Elaine. That is absolutely like, yeah,
• 13:04
  Speaker 1: the babies, me and I'm safe, excuse will go away.
• 13:08
  Speaker 1: But Elaine, being a person who induces gray hair will
• 13:12
  Speaker 1: not go away.
• 13:13
  Speaker 2: No, she doesn't like to follow the rules. That's not
• 13:16
  Speaker 2: rearly something she does.
• 13:18
  Speaker 1: And even if she's not doing spy shit, you know,
• 13:20
  Speaker 1: she's going to be engineering and setting her hair on
• 13:22
  Speaker 1: fire every chance she gets away from state business, you know,
• 13:25
  Speaker 1: like she's gonna find ways to endanger herself. That's just
• 13:28
  Speaker 1: who she is, because she is an engineer tinkerer type
• 13:31
  Speaker 1: person with her ungryol and that's dangerous. So more than
• 13:36
  Speaker 1: her dresser is gonna get set on fire.
• 13:38
  Speaker 2: Yeah, no kidding, Jesus. Just think about the explosions and
• 13:41
  Speaker 2: like the Eureka moments as she comes out with her
• 13:45
  Speaker 2: hair all like burned off on one side, like I
• 13:49
  Speaker 2: figured it out, It's like, oh my god, Elaine, not again,
• 13:52
  Speaker 2: please do I have to reveiald that side of the wing,
• 13:55
  Speaker 2: that wing of the palace again.
• 13:57
  Speaker 1: I was thinking she's gonna have a special estate where
• 13:59
  Speaker 1: she goes for expert mention, just so that way she
• 14:01
  Speaker 1: doesn't distress the citizens of Cabland and like endanger the
• 14:04
  Speaker 1: historic palace.
• 14:05
  Speaker 2: She's like has a gateway that she can go through
• 14:08
  Speaker 2: for her scientific experiments out in the countryside.
• 14:11
  Speaker 1: Exactly exactly. She's writing into Kyrie and trying to not
• 14:15
  Speaker 1: look like a conqueror.
• 14:17
  Speaker 2: Even though she is a conqueror, totally.
• 14:21
  Speaker 1: Peaceful conqueror.
• 14:22
  Speaker 2: Yeah, but the place is in chaos. It has no
• 14:24
  Speaker 2: official ruler except Rand kind of even though he's abandoned them,
• 14:28
  Speaker 2: but he he's given it to his He said he
• 14:31
  Speaker 2: wants a lane to have it, so any authority that
• 14:33
  Speaker 2: he has is transferred to her. And she even says
• 14:37
  Speaker 2: she's like, I take his help on this one.
• 14:38
  Speaker 1: Yeah, And like it's been effectively being run by a
• 14:41
  Speaker 1: nice to die who's been trying to hold it in
• 14:43
  Speaker 1: trust for Elaine because Rand isn't here, and it's been
• 14:46
  Speaker 1: a whole thing.
• 14:47
  Speaker 2: Poor Kyrie, Anne Man, they have been through this shit
• 14:51
  Speaker 2: between the ael.
• 14:52
  Speaker 1: The last quarter century has just been.
• 14:56
  Speaker 2: The iell have swarmed over them twice.
• 14:59
  Speaker 1: Right, They've had ridiculous rulers observe wealth, inequality and refugee
• 15:05
  Speaker 1: crisis issues.
• 15:07
  Speaker 2: And Tom keeps assassinating their king, and Tom.
• 15:11
  Speaker 1: Keeps assassinating the king. It's really been tough. Okay, So
• 15:17
  Speaker 1: we are one day away from the meeting with Rand.
• 15:21
  Speaker 1: That's our little time stamp here. We are finally strying
• 15:23
  Speaker 1: to get the timelines aligning, and then we get three
• 15:27
  Speaker 1: kinswomen's names who I don't recognize, coming up with Lease,
• 15:30
  Speaker 1: who I do recognize, and they're kind of her subtle
• 15:35
  Speaker 1: otter guard that don't look like guys to die but
• 15:38
  Speaker 1: our SERSA Kima and Nashia fan names random inserts or
• 15:43
  Speaker 1: am I just forgetting that they existed back in book
• 15:46
  Speaker 1: seven or whatever?
• 15:48
  Speaker 2: Let's look them up because I did not beforehand. Sisa
• 15:53
  Speaker 2: does not have a fan name, although this is the
• 15:56
  Speaker 2: only time we see her. Yeah, no hits on any
• 15:59
  Speaker 2: of these. These are all just single serving people who
• 16:06
  Speaker 2: never show up again and aren't named after anybody.
• 16:09
  Speaker 1: Why, all right? Fine? Whatever?
• 16:13
  Speaker 2: Yeah, this is as far as I can tell. According
• 16:16
  Speaker 2: to wiki, first and last appearance is in this chapter,
• 16:21
  Speaker 2: and they're not named after anybody.
• 16:23
  Speaker 1: Well, that's boring.
• 16:26
  Speaker 2: Like I thought I discovered something.
• 16:28
  Speaker 1: Well, I noticed some names, and I was hoping that
• 16:30
  Speaker 1: there was something there. The next thing that I have
• 16:33
  Speaker 1: is this line would be assassin would have great difficulty
• 16:37
  Speaker 1: picking her off without first hitting her friends, So it
• 16:40
  Speaker 1: would be for the rest of her life. And I'm
• 16:42
  Speaker 1: just like, that's a rough thing to think about. And
• 16:46
  Speaker 1: also maybe that's a reason to dismantle such intense vertical
• 16:50
  Speaker 1: hierarchies and not have a monarchy.
• 16:52
  Speaker 2: What you don't inherently think one person's life is worth
• 16:55
  Speaker 2: more than the people around them, communist.
• 16:58
  Speaker 1: I mean, when that person's a base, yes, but like
• 17:02
  Speaker 1: you know, but yeah, I don't know. I just feel
• 17:06
  Speaker 1: like if you need I mean, obviously some people need
• 17:08
  Speaker 1: bodyguards because they do work that is not seen with
• 17:13
  Speaker 1: favor by people who have a monopoly on violence.
• 17:15
  Speaker 2: I'm sure the.
• 17:16
  Speaker 1: Concept of bodyguards doesn't inherently mean that the person being
• 17:18
  Speaker 1: guarded is like a bad person, right obviously.
• 17:22
  Speaker 2: And sometimes you have to make choices where you're going
• 17:24
  Speaker 2: to screw over somebody and like you need bodyguard from
• 17:28
  Speaker 2: one of those groups of people.
• 17:30
  Speaker 1: Yeah, it's just it's that's that's a thing that exists.
• 17:33
  Speaker 1: But you know, just looking at the pro monarchy angle
• 17:36
  Speaker 1: of these books and the fact that this is our
• 17:38
  Speaker 1: best monarch situation, I'm just like, I don't know, baby,
• 17:41
  Speaker 1: you could just not be a monarch because I'm a
• 17:46
  Speaker 1: cranky want to be anarchist.
• 17:48
  Speaker 2: There's an aspect of philosopher king in Jordan's works, this
• 17:52
  Speaker 2: idea that if you are this intelligent, good person who
• 17:56
  Speaker 2: is hard working and stubborn and believes in the right things,
• 18:00
  Speaker 2: you can do a better job of ruling over people
• 18:05
  Speaker 2: than someone who's greedy and selfish, and that it's worth
• 18:08
  Speaker 2: putting those people in charge. Sadly, he's not really bringing
• 18:11
  Speaker 2: in the power corrupt aspect of any of this, right,
• 18:14
  Speaker 2: because all these characters, all of our main characters, go
• 18:17
  Speaker 2: from the idea that, oh, if they have a good upbringing,
• 18:21
  Speaker 2: they will not be corrupted by the power that is
• 18:23
  Speaker 2: granted to them.
• 18:24
  Speaker 1: It's a really nice fantasy.
• 18:27
  Speaker 2: It's a really nice That's why it's fantasy.
• 18:31
  Speaker 1: And that's why we read about it here and it
• 18:33
  Speaker 1: works here, and that's probably why I should stop harping
• 18:36
  Speaker 1: on it for being unrealistic, because it is supposed to
• 18:38
  Speaker 1: be our escape into fantasy.
• 18:41
  Speaker 2: But there is the idea that like, yes, if you
• 18:44
  Speaker 2: put good people in charge, good things can happen. Yeah,
• 18:48
  Speaker 2: and bad people in charge, bad things can happen. And
• 18:51
  Speaker 2: I feel like that's not that far off the truth.
• 18:54
  Speaker 1: No, it's pretty real. It's pretty real. It's just good
• 18:57
  Speaker 1: people are way less common get told that's the problem.
• 19:03
  Speaker 2: And that's what makes the Two Rivers so special is
• 19:05
  Speaker 2: it creates good people rights. We see that in the
• 19:09
  Speaker 2: Black Tower, we see that with all of our main characters.
• 19:12
  Speaker 2: We see that with the White Tower apprentices who get
• 19:15
  Speaker 2: recruited from the Two Rivers. They're always the best people
• 19:18
  Speaker 2: in every situation they're in the Two Rivers. Archers always
• 19:22
  Speaker 2: do the right thing whatever. It's the Shire, right, there's
• 19:25
  Speaker 2: something about this place that produces a certain caliber of people,
• 19:29
  Speaker 2: and that's as much fantasy as anything else.
• 19:31
  Speaker 1: Yeah, Yeah, that's that's the true fantasy, that there's this
• 19:34
  Speaker 1: bucolic rural village where good people exist and have uncompromising
• 19:40
  Speaker 1: moral fiber and they will come forth and save us
• 19:43
  Speaker 1: from ourselves.
• 19:44
  Speaker 2: Because the rest of us are corrupt city people who
• 19:48
  Speaker 2: of fantasy. It's amazing that. Yeah. No, wonder people in
• 19:54
  Speaker 2: the rural like countryside love these books because they're like yeah,
• 19:57
  Speaker 2: I get to go save those city folks from Yeah. Yeah,
• 20:02
  Speaker 2: I like Portland. It's a good city. Wait, you're the
• 20:08
  Speaker 2: country folk. Are you gonna come save me for myself?
• 20:10
  Speaker 1: You can bug out to my place when the zombie
• 20:12
  Speaker 1: apocalypse happens.
• 20:13
  Speaker 2: Ho about that if I can get there with that GPS. God,
• 20:17
  Speaker 2: my sense of direction sucks.
• 20:19
  Speaker 1: Just go west to hit the ocean and goes south
• 20:22
  Speaker 1: until you'd see.
• 20:24
  Speaker 2: I don't know, palm trees.
• 20:27
  Speaker 1: Oh okay, all right. So in the city, we're kind
• 20:32
  Speaker 1: of thinking about rumors and anxiety and this guy Lorstrom,
• 20:40
  Speaker 1: who's going to be her biggest adversary in the years
• 20:42
  Speaker 1: to come. A Lane feels confident that Kyrian just has
• 20:46
  Speaker 1: had a rough quarter century and just needs a good
• 20:48
  Speaker 1: monarch and then they'll be fine. That the rumors aren't
• 20:50
  Speaker 1: anything to be too worried about.
• 20:53
  Speaker 2: I got the canon cannon, like, oh, yeah, I guess
• 20:55
  Speaker 2: I could deflect arrows if I wanted to. I never
• 20:57
  Speaker 2: really thought about it.
• 20:57
  Speaker 1: But sure, I guess all Oh yeah, yeah.
• 21:00
  Speaker 2: Really you never I guess. Okay, whatever, because you don't
• 21:02
  Speaker 2: really have to think about protecting yourself from assassination in
• 21:05
  Speaker 2: the past.
• 21:06
  Speaker 1: Yeah, it's it's a brave new world, I guess. And
• 21:09
  Speaker 1: then we've got this line from her, one could sooner
• 21:11
  Speaker 1: take away an Aiel's spears than cut the craftiness out
• 21:14
  Speaker 1: of the cavery in in, but perhaps she could teach
• 21:16
  Speaker 1: them a greater loyalty to country and throne. So yeah, definitely,
• 21:20
  Speaker 1: philosopher kings are a real and good thing in this cosmology.
• 21:26
  Speaker 1: And then yeah, we have the introduction, well not the
• 21:30
  Speaker 1: reintroduction of Sashal Anderley and Samitsu Temagawa, who are the
• 21:34
  Speaker 1: is to die that kind of manage the hand.
• 21:37
  Speaker 2: Off, right, the ones who were in Rand's employ and
• 21:42
  Speaker 2: who're kind of taken themselves on as the managers of
• 21:44
  Speaker 2: the city while he's been gone. And Sashal is a
• 21:48
  Speaker 2: red and submits who is a yellow?
• 21:50
  Speaker 1: That sounds right? Yeah, but yeah, they're loyalists Rand, so
• 21:55
  Speaker 1: it's not like a pit of vipers for her to
• 21:58
  Speaker 1: walk into.
• 21:59
  Speaker 2: On that front, I'm curious about Sechelle's background. She's a
• 22:02
  Speaker 2: red who's loyal to Rand. How did she get involved
• 22:07
  Speaker 2: with Rand?
• 22:08
  Speaker 1: I would have had to have been through the Alida situation,
• 22:11
  Speaker 1: the Lord of Chaos, do might as well's.
• 22:13
  Speaker 2: She was stilled she was holding her She's that.
• 22:15
  Speaker 1: One she's the one that the wise Ones kind of
• 22:18
  Speaker 1: took on as a special project and like brought into
• 22:21
  Speaker 1: her wise one post is to die hybrid state and
• 22:26
  Speaker 1: Dahmer Flynn heals her, and then Flynn heals her, So
• 22:29
  Speaker 1: she's a nice to die again. But she has the
• 22:32
  Speaker 1: the personality transformation of having gone through that stilling and
• 22:36
  Speaker 1: rehabilitation process. And yeah, then that's why she's loyal to Rand.
• 22:41
  Speaker 1: And she's not truly a red by the logic that
• 22:44
  Speaker 1: uh Leanna and Swan followed, right, she's between ajas she
• 22:50
  Speaker 1: can choose where she's going. By that logic, she's she's
• 22:54
  Speaker 1: a dragon sworn sister.
• 22:56
  Speaker 2: Is she one of the ones who Varren compelled to
• 22:58
  Speaker 2: swear to Rand?
• 23:00
  Speaker 1: I don't think so, because she looks at Seschelle during
• 23:05
  Speaker 1: her process of doing all of the compulsion and she
• 23:09
  Speaker 1: thinks all queasily about her and is not does not
• 23:13
  Speaker 1: understand what's going on there. I don't think Varon does.
• 23:16
  Speaker 1: I think that their transition to being loyalist to Rand
• 23:19
  Speaker 1: is more genuine.
• 23:21
  Speaker 2: Because they're healed and they swear in the same chapter. Really,
• 23:24
  Speaker 2: when it's Heart chapter twenty five, Domer Flynn heals them
• 23:27
  Speaker 2: and then they swear. Interesting, and that also is a
• 23:30
  Speaker 2: Varren pov in that chapter.
• 23:33
  Speaker 1: Oh, I mean, it's not like the compulsion is contingent
• 23:38
  Speaker 1: on someone being able to channel it's compulsion. It's not
• 23:40
  Speaker 1: a shield.
• 23:42
  Speaker 2: Let me look at Varren's history and see if I
• 23:43
  Speaker 2: can figure out when she's actually in the tents. That's
• 23:47
  Speaker 2: a crowd of swords well before Winner's Heart. But yeah, anyway, yeah, don't.
• 23:53
  Speaker 2: I don't. I'm not exactly sure what I'm looking for
• 23:55
  Speaker 2: at this point.
• 23:56
  Speaker 1: Evidence of why Seshell swore to Rand. Maybe it was
• 23:59
  Speaker 1: just as simple as we figured out how to cure that,
• 24:04
  Speaker 1: and so we'll pretend that we won't give it to
• 24:06
  Speaker 1: you unless you swear. I don't know. I don't recall
• 24:11
  Speaker 1: if we get specifics of that. But regardless, she is
• 24:14
  Speaker 1: loyal as far as I know, I don't recall a
• 24:17
  Speaker 1: great betrayal from her.
• 24:18
  Speaker 2: So yeah, because cod Swain is the one who tells
• 24:21
  Speaker 2: us that they've sworn, she doesn't really say why, and
• 24:24
  Speaker 2: she says not to trust them.
• 24:25
  Speaker 1: Okay, well, something something to Varian and yeah, Elaine talks
• 24:30
  Speaker 1: about how she doesn't really mind rants help taking the throne,
• 24:33
  Speaker 1: but she kind of minds it. But she doesn't really
• 24:35
  Speaker 1: mind it. And then yeah, the Kyrie in and model,
• 24:39
  Speaker 1: the Kyriean and Nobles are being models of propriety. None
• 24:41
  Speaker 1: would show anything like a Laurian's audacity and or oh yeah,
• 24:45
  Speaker 1: and then we have Brigida and the Throne, which is
• 24:48
  Speaker 1: a fun sequence.
• 24:49
  Speaker 2: That is fun, yeah, where she just basically checks it,
• 24:53
  Speaker 2: finds the poison needle, and then insists that she has
• 24:56
  Speaker 2: to like basically do everything that Elaine would do, which
• 24:59
  Speaker 2: is physically sit in the throne. And then everyone gasps
• 25:02
  Speaker 2: because that's, you know, violating propriety. But of course it's like, no,
• 25:06
  Speaker 2: you want the bodyguard to take the poison needle, not
• 25:08
  Speaker 2: the queen.
• 25:09
  Speaker 1: Right, And it's like this is the throne and who
• 25:12
  Speaker 1: gets to sit in the throne is a big deal,
• 25:14
  Speaker 1: and this is an investiture ceremony and she just like
• 25:16
  Speaker 1: plunks her ass down. First, she ruffles the cushions like
• 25:20
  Speaker 1: it's a normal chair, finds a poisoned needle, so okay,
• 25:23
  Speaker 1: that's justified, but then just sits her ass down like
• 25:26
  Speaker 1: it's a regular chair, and it's like that's the right.
• 25:30
  Speaker 1: Like people who are all invested in this kind of
• 25:33
  Speaker 1: crispy social hierarchy sacrid, but yeah, Burgida literally just found
• 25:39
  Speaker 1: a poisoned needle. She's taking no chances that there's like
• 25:41
  Speaker 1: a bomb or something planted under the chair, right, And.
• 25:45
  Speaker 2: She's still the Burgida in terms of being willing to
• 25:48
  Speaker 2: break the rules and do things against the grain. It's
• 25:51
  Speaker 2: just she's doing it for a lane safety now instead
• 25:54
  Speaker 2: of for fun, you know. And she always she always
• 25:57
  Speaker 2: broke the rules for the for the greater good, right,
• 26:00
  Speaker 2: she always broke the rules to protect people.
• 26:02
  Speaker 1: Yeah, She's incredibly good and incredibly self sacrificing, and she
• 26:08
  Speaker 1: does have a little bit of fun here, just like
• 26:10
  Speaker 1: seeing everyone be shocked and scandalized and she's like, oh,
• 26:12
  Speaker 1: I get to shock and scandalize and do my job up.
• 26:17
  Speaker 2: That's definitely one of the fun Brigida moments for me
• 26:20
  Speaker 2: is her just like because again we see how important
• 26:22
  Speaker 2: it is to Layne when Lane sits down, and like,
• 26:24
  Speaker 2: this will have grand implications my sitting in this chair
• 26:27
  Speaker 2: because it is this declaration of being queen and Brigidi
• 26:31
  Speaker 2: is kind of like almost stealing that thunder.
• 26:33
  Speaker 1: Yeah, but also like dying on the throne would have
• 26:36
  Speaker 1: not worked, so instead it just looks like she's very
• 26:40
  Speaker 1: well protected and everyone needs to pay attention. Do we
• 26:43
  Speaker 1: know who put the poison needle there?
• 26:45
  Speaker 2: No idea, no idea why, I know, no further information
• 26:48
  Speaker 2: about it.
• 26:49
  Speaker 1: General dark friendery, probably because it would be so chaotic
• 26:53
  Speaker 1: for the countries if she died.
• 26:54
  Speaker 2: I don't even think dark friendery. I think it's just
• 26:56
  Speaker 2: game of houses.
• 26:58
  Speaker 1: God, that's dangerous for those people, and.
• 27:02
  Speaker 2: They could it could have been there for anybody, could
• 27:04
  Speaker 2: have been there for Rand, it could have been there
• 27:05
  Speaker 2: for anybody who tried to sit on the throne, right,
• 27:08
  Speaker 2: it couldn't have It might not have been recent that
• 27:10
  Speaker 2: that was put there. We don't know, probably probably recent,
• 27:15
  Speaker 2: probably for Elane.
• 27:16
  Speaker 1: I mean, I would assume so interesting that we don't
• 27:19
  Speaker 1: get any follow up on that seems kind of important.
• 27:21
  Speaker 2: Yeah, Kyrie Inn's kind of ignored after this.
• 27:24
  Speaker 1: Moraine's country of origin deserves more respect.
• 27:27
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I would love more follow up about what's going
• 27:30
  Speaker 2: on because we kind of get everyone united behind our
• 27:33
  Speaker 2: American characters go off to the last battle, fight the
• 27:35
  Speaker 2: last battle, and that's the end of the series, and
• 27:39
  Speaker 2: so there's a lot of like what's going on in
• 27:41
  Speaker 2: these countries that we'll never get to know, And.
• 27:45
  Speaker 1: So, yeah, Elaine basically says, I do not demand your trust,
• 27:49
  Speaker 1: but I do demand your obedience, and that obedience is
• 27:53
  Speaker 1: to march to the field of Marilord.
• 27:55
  Speaker 2: Right.
• 27:56
  Speaker 1: They're just like, oh, that is moving very fast. That's
• 28:00
  Speaker 1: so much faster than we thought anything would be happening,
• 28:02
  Speaker 1: because she's like, first of all, shit's going down. We
• 28:05
  Speaker 1: have to go. Also, I can't give you people time
• 28:08
  Speaker 1: to think about what's happening. I need you to just
• 28:10
  Speaker 1: start obeying me right now, because we don't have time
• 28:13
  Speaker 1: for dillydallying because as aforementioned, shit is going down.
• 28:17
  Speaker 2: It kind of reminds me when rand is like, we're
• 28:18
  Speaker 2: gonna go and everyone thinks he's gonna say, like attack
• 28:22
  Speaker 2: Ilien and he's like nope.
• 28:26
  Speaker 1: Yeah, except in this case, they were thinking she was
• 28:28
  Speaker 1: gonna say, we're gonna go have a party, and instead
• 28:31
  Speaker 1: she says we're gonna go. We're supposed to have like
• 28:34
  Speaker 1: a month of you know, celebrations and debauchery, and she's like,
• 28:38
  Speaker 1: after the end of the world, after we hold off
• 28:41
  Speaker 1: the end of the world, then we can have two
• 28:43
  Speaker 1: months of partying in debauchery. And she also puts out
• 28:47
  Speaker 1: a call for men and women to swell the ranks
• 28:50
  Speaker 1: of fighters and for all the Bell founders to show
• 28:53
  Speaker 1: up for a very important debrief because Cannon's Cannon's cannons.
• 28:56
  Speaker 1: We need more fucking cannons, I mean dragons.
• 28:59
  Speaker 2: And she talks about how she's half Kyrie ann In
• 29:01
  Speaker 2: and that's her you know, legitimate power.
• 29:03
  Speaker 1: Base, and that the Dragon Reborn wants it this way.
• 29:06
  Speaker 1: Don't don't question the Reborn, just don't, don't.
• 29:10
  Speaker 2: And then a lot of ways she is she's cutting
• 29:11
  Speaker 2: through the house the game of houses.
• 29:14
  Speaker 1: Yeah, she just took a machete to the red tape
• 29:17
  Speaker 1: that is Kyrie in politics. She just took an absolute
• 29:20
  Speaker 1: multiple machetes, machete in each arm, just whirling through all
• 29:24
  Speaker 1: of their carefully constructed tightropes. Yeah, there we go. That's
• 29:28
  Speaker 1: the end of that POV.
• 29:30
  Speaker 2: Yeah, she's she's like, let's recruit everybody, bring them all in,
• 29:33
  Speaker 2: like anyone who could possibly fight the old men, the boys.
• 29:37
  Speaker 2: We're going to train them up as much as we
• 29:39
  Speaker 2: can the next couple of days before the actual fight.
• 29:41
  Speaker 2: But everybody's needed.
• 29:42
  Speaker 1: And women. We're even going to let women who want
• 29:45
  Speaker 1: to fight just come on in.
• 30:00
  Speaker 2: So yeah, then over to Matt.
• 30:02
  Speaker 1: And now for the eponymous eye rolling portion of today's readings.
• 30:11
  Speaker 2: Matt leaned against the dead tree, looking over his camp.
• 30:14
  Speaker 2: He breathed in and out, smiling, feeling the beautiful comfort
• 30:16
  Speaker 2: of knowing that he was no longer being chased. He
• 30:19
  Speaker 2: had forgotten how good that felt. Better than a pretty
• 30:22
  Speaker 2: serving girl on each knee. That feeling was well better
• 30:25
  Speaker 2: than one serving girl. Anyway. A military camp at evening
• 30:29
  Speaker 2: was one of the most comfortable places in all the world,
• 30:32
  Speaker 2: even if half the camp was empty, the men there
• 30:34
  Speaker 2: having gone to Kyrieenne. The sun had set, and some
• 30:37
  Speaker 2: of those who remained had turned in, but for those
• 30:39
  Speaker 2: who had pulled afternoon duty the next day, there was
• 30:42
  Speaker 2: no reason to sleep just yet. Short, Sweet, he's in
• 30:47
  Speaker 2: the camp. He the Golum's dead.
• 30:49
  Speaker 1: Yeah, the after glow of getting rid of the Golam
• 30:52
  Speaker 1: is still glowing, which, like fair, that was a really intense,
• 30:55
  Speaker 1: long running evil guy that needed to be dealt with.
• 31:00
  Speaker 2: Wearing a red scarf to remember Thailand and everyone else
• 31:02
  Speaker 2: the gold I'm killed, And there's that little reference to
• 31:04
  Speaker 2: a pink scarf and he's like, no thought about it,
• 31:06
  Speaker 2: not going to do it.
• 31:07
  Speaker 1: He had been tempted to wear a pink scarf in
• 31:11
  Speaker 1: memory of Thailand. However, brief of a moment. Eck, you
• 31:15
  Speaker 1: can wear red for everyone, for the blood bod of everyone.
• 31:18
  Speaker 1: That's fine, but you just ever, I need a more pink.
• 31:20
  Speaker 1: You don't need a more pink. That's unnecessary, sir.
• 31:23
  Speaker 2: He views his relationship with Thailand much more fondly than
• 31:26
  Speaker 2: you do.
• 31:27
  Speaker 1: Yeah, much more fondly than me and a lot of people.
• 31:32
  Speaker 1: But it is cool that he's moved on from just black,
• 31:35
  Speaker 1: starting to get a little more fancy, a little more color,
• 31:37
  Speaker 1: a little more style, like he's always had style. But
• 31:41
  Speaker 1: I don't know, I feel like the scarf. He used
• 31:43
  Speaker 1: to be more ashamed of the scarf, and it seems
• 31:46
  Speaker 1: like he's kind of moving past that and to just no,
• 31:48
  Speaker 1: I wear a scarf so that way people don't look
• 31:50
  Speaker 1: at it, but like, I'm not trying to hide the
• 31:51
  Speaker 1: fact that I have a neck.
• 31:53
  Speaker 2: Well, and this is Sanderson, And if you speak, if
• 31:56
  Speaker 2: you know that Sanderson's writing, you know he speaks the
• 31:58
  Speaker 2: language of anime, and a red scarf is always more
• 32:00
  Speaker 2: badass than the black scarf. Right, They always introduced the
• 32:03
  Speaker 2: bad guy with the black scarf, the black covering, and
• 32:06
  Speaker 2: whenever he upgrades gets that power up He switches into
• 32:10
  Speaker 2: the red scarf, the red jacket, the red hat. Right,
• 32:12
  Speaker 2: that's like the power upgrade that goes on there in anime.
• 32:17
  Speaker 2: And I know Sanderson is an anime fan.
• 32:19
  Speaker 1: I see that is Laura. That would go over my head.
• 32:22
  Speaker 2: I think that's related. I can't prove it.
• 32:24
  Speaker 1: I don't dislike it. Oh and as Athene points out,
• 32:27
  Speaker 1: there's the black veiled and red veiled idea. Yeah, okay,
• 32:31
  Speaker 1: all right, all right, black and red is definitely a
• 32:34
  Speaker 1: color combo we see repeated many even throughout the rest
• 32:37
  Speaker 1: of the book. I mean, Morgan and Rand black and
• 32:40
  Speaker 1: red is a thing.
• 32:41
  Speaker 2: Oh yeah, I mean even long before Sanderson. But I
• 32:44
  Speaker 2: do think that that. I don't know. I just I've
• 32:47
  Speaker 2: enough of those old aunt nineties anime I can picture
• 32:50
  Speaker 2: the character like you know, off the gan Off. Going
• 32:53
  Speaker 2: from gan off the gray to gan Off the white
• 32:56
  Speaker 2: was that power upgrade, right, But I feel like going
• 32:58
  Speaker 2: from black to white or black to red is all
• 33:00
  Speaker 2: one upgrade. Sure?
• 33:01
  Speaker 1: Yeah, so yeah, I Matt goes to his outdoor.
• 33:04
  Speaker 2: Office bitches about stacks of paper when it's like, well,
• 33:08
  Speaker 2: you're in charge of people, there's going to be stacks
• 33:10
  Speaker 2: of paper.
• 33:11
  Speaker 1: It's got a nice, you know, open view, open floor
• 33:13
  Speaker 1: plan with his table just set outside in a meadow,
• 33:16
  Speaker 1: and he kind of reviews a bunch of news to
• 33:19
  Speaker 1: one is empress now, right, like the news of her
• 33:22
  Speaker 1: being empress you, So he knows that she's safe and
• 33:25
  Speaker 1: crowned and all that news about rand news about events.
• 33:30
  Speaker 2: What do you think about the Sea Folk Sean Channe alliance?
• 33:33
  Speaker 2: Do you think that's bullshit?
• 33:34
  Speaker 1: Yeah? I think he's right that it's just the misidentification
• 33:37
  Speaker 1: of all of the ships that got stolen, because he
• 33:39
  Speaker 1: would be more aware of that disproportionality than others because
• 33:43
  Speaker 1: he sort of triggered that massive grade escape with all
• 33:46
  Speaker 1: the boats stealing. So I think that his interpretation of
• 33:49
  Speaker 1: that rumor is correct.
• 33:51
  Speaker 2: The Sean Channa capture of Seafolk vessels, right, the.
• 33:54
  Speaker 1: Caption of Sean Channa vessels. Yeah, and the other way around.
• 33:57
  Speaker 2: The text says the Shawn Channon captured and Seafolk vessels.
• 34:01
  Speaker 1: Oh huh. I always assumed that it was whatever either way.
• 34:06
  Speaker 1: I think Matt's right that people are just confused about
• 34:09
  Speaker 1: the fact that these boat styles do not necessarily denote
• 34:12
  Speaker 1: who's driving said.
• 34:14
  Speaker 2: Boat right right between all the sea folk getting captured,
• 34:19
  Speaker 2: and then all the sea folk escaping and taking whatever
• 34:21
  Speaker 2: boat was available. A lot of the sea folk boats
• 34:24
  Speaker 2: ended up in shawn Chan control. A lot of sean
• 34:26
  Speaker 2: Cham boats ended up in sea folk control. Yeah.
• 34:29
  Speaker 1: Yeah, you're gonna have to look at the flags and
• 34:31
  Speaker 1: the people standing on the ship and to actually determine
• 34:35
  Speaker 1: what's going on with any given ship.
• 34:36
  Speaker 2: If you see boobs, it's sea folk. If you see
• 34:39
  Speaker 2: an insect helmet, it's sean Chan. I know which one
• 34:42
  Speaker 2: I'd rather see?
• 34:44
  Speaker 1: Yeah, again, I think most a lot of people wouldn't
• 34:50
  Speaker 1: much rather see boobs than insect helmets.
• 34:53
  Speaker 2: And also all the implications behind that.
• 34:55
  Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, in what world does the insect that's the
• 35:00
  Speaker 1: thing you want to be seeing. No, And then there's
• 35:03
  Speaker 1: news about Rand. Rand is in a tent talking to people,
• 35:06
  Speaker 1: I assume because he's at the Field of Merrill or
• 35:08
  Speaker 1: for a few days before everyone else shows up. That's
• 35:12
  Speaker 1: kind of like when you're at the festival, like before
• 35:14
  Speaker 1: everyone else, because you're there setting up.
• 35:16
  Speaker 2: Yeah, it's the what Wickie says. It's not clear who
• 35:20
  Speaker 2: Rand is weading with meeting with because it's a day
• 35:22
  Speaker 2: early for his meeting with the Borderlanders. According to the
• 35:25
  Speaker 2: like their timeline.
• 35:27
  Speaker 1: Yeah, and it just says people. So it's like Rand's
• 35:29
  Speaker 1: in a lot of meetings. There's a lot, you know,
• 35:31
  Speaker 1: mat Matt has a lot of paper because of all
• 35:33
  Speaker 1: the stuff he's doing. Rand has a lot of meetings
• 35:35
  Speaker 1: because of all the stuff he's doing.
• 35:36
  Speaker 2: Right, right, That's what I mean, that's what he's doing,
• 35:38
  Speaker 2: is kind of going from place to place talking to people,
• 35:40
  Speaker 2: fixing his errors, like gatewaying around basically having meetings. He's
• 35:46
  Speaker 2: he's CEO of the biggest company in the world, right.
• 35:49
  Speaker 1: Yeah, now, exactly exactly. He could be in any number
• 35:51
  Speaker 1: of tents, doing any number of meetings. And then we've
• 35:54
  Speaker 1: got a series of interesting events which I think are
• 36:00
  Speaker 1: probably not all true and probably not all false. Wolves
• 36:05
  Speaker 1: running in enormous packs, congregating and clearings and howling in chorus.
• 36:09
  Speaker 1: That has to be real because we know that the
• 36:11
  Speaker 1: wolves are running.
• 36:12
  Speaker 2: North, they're heading towards the last battle.
• 36:14
  Speaker 1: Yeah, exactly. The sky's shining red at night, sounds like
• 36:17
  Speaker 1: the Aurora, which I could totally believe.
• 36:20
  Speaker 2: I can see that, I mean, or it could just
• 36:21
  Speaker 2: be the bubbles of evil. It could be I mean,
• 36:23
  Speaker 2: there's so many things that could be going on with
• 36:26
  Speaker 2: the sky shining red at night.
• 36:28
  Speaker 1: Yeah. I like to think that it's the aurora, because
• 36:30
  Speaker 1: red is the color you can see farthest away. We've
• 36:33
  Speaker 1: had aurora sidings down here in Oregon a couple of
• 36:35
  Speaker 1: times in the last few years because we've been at
• 36:37
  Speaker 1: the peak of the solar cycle, and red is the
• 36:40
  Speaker 1: color we've most easily been able to see here. It's
• 36:43
  Speaker 1: the color that is highest, I believe, in the column.
• 36:46
  Speaker 1: So it makes it the farthest around the curvature of
• 36:50
  Speaker 1: the Earth for people to see.
• 36:52
  Speaker 2: It's going to have the longest wavelength.
• 36:53
  Speaker 1: Yeah, So I like the idea of the aurora stretching
• 36:56
  Speaker 1: farther down from the pole of the planet as the
• 37:00
  Speaker 1: last battle approaches, Like there's just more steff going on
• 37:03
  Speaker 1: in the sky, why not the aurora. That'd be cool. Yeah.
• 37:06
  Speaker 1: I think green is the most common color. It's just
• 37:09
  Speaker 1: red is the most likely to be seen by those
• 37:12
  Speaker 1: super low latitude people who are like desperately straining their
• 37:15
  Speaker 1: eyes hoping to see a pinch of aurora at all.
• 37:18
  Speaker 2: I don't know the physics of that, but I assume
• 37:20
  Speaker 2: it has to do with the wave length of the
• 37:21
  Speaker 2: color and the way it travel same reason we see
• 37:23
  Speaker 2: red sunsets, right, because.
• 37:24
  Speaker 1: Yeah, it might be that it propagates better through the
• 37:27
  Speaker 1: for over a griter distance.
• 37:29
  Speaker 2: Whereas the blue comes in. You know, basically, if you've
• 37:32
  Speaker 2: got light coming in directly above the red, or the
• 37:34
  Speaker 2: blue gets scattered and the red passes through, I think
• 37:37
  Speaker 2: is what goes on and then sunsets the other way around.
• 37:40
  Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, that totally sounds right. And yes, you absolutely
• 37:43
  Speaker 1: can look down on us from Finland Fuji. That is
• 37:46
  Speaker 1: completely your right, both geographically and morally. But you know,
• 37:51
  Speaker 1: we're down here at forty five degrees. We don't get
• 37:53
  Speaker 1: auroras very much.
• 37:56
  Speaker 2: Live stop, live stock lining up in all the fields,
• 37:59
  Speaker 2: all face towards the north, watching silently. Do you think
• 38:03
  Speaker 2: that's real?
• 38:04
  Speaker 1: I mean that sounds like an exaggeration of all of
• 38:07
  Speaker 1: the farmers taking all of their livestock and heading in
• 38:10
  Speaker 1: massive caravans north. Maybe some of the animals are doing that,
• 38:14
  Speaker 1: but I think it's more an exaggeration of just the
• 38:16
  Speaker 1: fact that the land is collectively disgorging its resources to
• 38:21
  Speaker 1: the north for the war effort.
• 38:22
  Speaker 2: I think there is some pole right, because we've seen
• 38:25
  Speaker 2: what he opened up the prologue with people being pulled north.
• 38:29
  Speaker 2: And I think everyone's feeling that it's like this gravitational
• 38:33
  Speaker 2: like in a lot of ways, the dark one is
• 38:35
  Speaker 2: a black hole because we know he's affecting time, right,
• 38:38
  Speaker 2: He's got this gravitational poll that is distorting time. And
• 38:42
  Speaker 2: so you know, I if you know a lot about
• 38:46
  Speaker 2: how gravity works, it really is kind of a result
• 38:49
  Speaker 2: of the time distortion that gravity creates. It's it's you
• 38:54
  Speaker 2: can think of it that way. It's not you know,
• 38:56
  Speaker 2: it's one of those things where you know, the math
• 38:57
  Speaker 2: can apply in both directions. So if you look at it,
• 38:59
  Speaker 2: you can be like, oh, time is actually creating the
• 39:01
  Speaker 2: gravity well that we all exist in because there's a
• 39:06
  Speaker 2: time difference as you go up and so like the
• 39:07
  Speaker 2: time difference as you apply. I can see there being
• 39:10
  Speaker 2: this pole physical pull towards the north, but it's in
• 39:14
  Speaker 2: the soul. It's in the soul, you know, Like I
• 39:16
  Speaker 2: can tell it's obviously like everyone's being pulled north. It's
• 39:18
  Speaker 2: not a physical thing.
• 39:19
  Speaker 1: But it goes well with the idea of there being
• 39:22
  Speaker 1: greater geomagnetic storms to the north that are making the aurora.
• 39:25
  Speaker 2: Right mmmmm, oh, I like that.
• 39:27
  Speaker 1: I like that you can actually tie those together that like,
• 39:29
  Speaker 1: because there's more of that Shenanigan reappening. It's making both
• 39:34
  Speaker 1: things happen. It's a stronger magnetic pole, there's a stronger
• 39:38
  Speaker 1: reaction in the atmosphere and in Yeah, the brains of
• 39:41
  Speaker 1: creatures that have any kind of magnetic directionality.
• 39:45
  Speaker 2: Sure, yeah, I like it.
• 39:46
  Speaker 1: Why not?
• 39:47
  Speaker 2: Why not? Yeah? Because we know things align with magnetic
• 39:50
  Speaker 2: fields and stuff, and so if you have like a
• 39:52
  Speaker 2: distortional magnetic field, maybe that does cause everyone to line
• 39:56
  Speaker 2: up in one.
• 39:56
  Speaker 1: Direction, particularly when there's like metaphysical who's spiritual reality bending
• 40:02
  Speaker 1: aspects to it? Like absolutely absolutely as above, so below.
• 40:06
  Speaker 2: And the last one is footprints of shadow spawn armies
• 40:09
  Speaker 2: in the middle of fields. I just think you've got
• 40:12
  Speaker 2: shadow spawn traveling all over the countryside.
• 40:14
  Speaker 1: Being stealthy and specifically avoiding raising villages.
• 40:18
  Speaker 2: Perhaps they don't say where, right, they don't say, like,
• 40:21
  Speaker 2: but they could be coming through way points.
• 40:23
  Speaker 1: Oh, through more portal stones, like what.
• 40:24
  Speaker 2: Paren portal stones and waygates. We know they're moving through both. Yeah, right,
• 40:29
  Speaker 2: because they're moving through waygates. Because Caitlin's about to get
• 40:31
  Speaker 2: attacked like tomorrow or the day after that.
• 40:33
  Speaker 1: That's true, So maybe these are all true. Actually, maybe
• 40:36
  Speaker 1: there's no rumors here whatsoever.
• 40:38
  Speaker 2: I don't think there's any false rumors. I always think
• 40:40
  Speaker 2: the rumors that they dismiss is like, oh, these things
• 40:42
  Speaker 2: spelled the simple heresy heresy hearsay is it hearsay or
• 40:46
  Speaker 2: here here.
• 40:47
  Speaker 1: This is hearsay. This is not spelled like heresy is
• 40:51
  Speaker 1: a different word.
• 40:51
  Speaker 2: This is hearsay, hearsay, simple hearsay passed on from farm
• 40:55
  Speaker 2: life to farm life until they reach the I think
• 40:57
  Speaker 2: the second character goes, oh, this is bullshit, it's all true.
• 41:00
  Speaker 1: So he is immediately pulls out Varren's letter and is
• 41:03
  Speaker 1: tapping it on the table and playing with it, which, yeah,
• 41:06
  Speaker 1: the waygate thing, yeah yeah yeah. He reads about mysterious
• 41:10
  Speaker 1: shadow spawn footprints in fields of armies that can't be tracked,
• 41:14
  Speaker 1: and he reaches for the letter because the wheel is
• 41:16
  Speaker 1: the pattern is like, oh my god, dude, how are
• 41:19
  Speaker 1: you this stubborn?
• 41:20
  Speaker 2: It seemed like the most difficult he had thing he'd
• 41:22
  Speaker 2: ever done, resisting the urge to open it. Yeah because
• 41:25
  Speaker 2: the patterns, Yeah, yeah, because you should be opening it,
• 41:28
  Speaker 2: like trust your absolutely very frustrating and yeah, the patterns
• 41:33
  Speaker 2: like these rumors apply.
• 41:37
  Speaker 1: Yeah, annoying. All right, So moving on from that, we
• 41:43
  Speaker 1: finally get to the thing we've been bitching about off
• 41:46
  Speaker 1: and on, this whole thing, the satala On On Matt
• 41:50
  Speaker 1: Boots encounter.
• 41:52
  Speaker 2: Well, first of all, he makes a point of telling
• 41:55
  Speaker 2: you that he doesn't look at her generous huge, giant, enormous,
• 42:00
  Speaker 2: big large bosom bazankazox. Yeah, ye, I never. I don't
• 42:07
  Speaker 2: look at that at all. And how giant it is, yeah, yeah,
• 42:11
  Speaker 2: it's it's a little Matt. There is that like, oh
• 42:14
  Speaker 2: I don't, I don't look at I make a note
• 42:16
  Speaker 2: of that for my men, not for me.
• 42:18
  Speaker 1: Yeah, we're still doing that. Whatever, annoying.
• 42:21
  Speaker 2: He's a married man now, he wouldn't look.
• 42:24
  Speaker 1: And then I feel like she tries to be Sanderson's
• 42:27
  Speaker 1: fourth wall breaking where she says, you don't shock me anymore.
• 42:30
  Speaker 1: I've realized the things you say are often intend to
• 42:33
  Speaker 1: do that. And it doesn't hit for me that that
• 42:38
  Speaker 1: fourth wall breaking does not land for me, because Matt
• 42:42
  Speaker 1: didn't say things to be shocking, no, until Sanderson tried
• 42:46
  Speaker 1: writing him. And it's the thing that we dislike the most.
• 42:49
  Speaker 1: So satala on On, you're wrong, no, stop.
• 42:53
  Speaker 2: Satala On speaking the words of Brandon Sanderson, You're wrong, right,
• 42:57
  Speaker 2: that's not He's never there to shock. He legitimately leave
• 43:00
  Speaker 2: the things he said, and other people just took them
• 43:03
  Speaker 2: as shocking. That's what made it effective.
• 43:06
  Speaker 1: Yeah, and then even here he has Matt say like, what,
• 43:08
  Speaker 1: I don't understand. That's not how I am at all,
• 43:11
  Speaker 1: and it's like, yeah, that's correct. You aren't like that,
• 43:16
  Speaker 1: except now you are, because that's how Sanderson's writing you.
• 43:20
  Speaker 1: And it's supposed to be this funny haha. Men don't
• 43:22
  Speaker 1: understand things. Like even at the end of this when
• 43:25
  Speaker 1: she's like, oh, so you're using this as a metaphor,
• 43:27
  Speaker 1: and he's like a metal what I'm just talking about Boots,
• 43:29
  Speaker 1: Like it's supposed to be this weird commentary on how
• 43:32
  Speaker 1: like women think about things totally different.
• 43:34
  Speaker 3: Than men, and I just that's not the Matt that
• 43:40
  Speaker 3: I know, And it's not nearly as funny as I
• 43:43
  Speaker 3: think Sanderson thought it would be.
• 43:45
  Speaker 2: Yeah, this is Wayne from the second Miss Born series
• 43:48
  Speaker 2: is very much this humor and this character, and you
• 43:52
  Speaker 2: know it's a choice.
• 43:55
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 43:56
  Speaker 2: Yeah. So we get a letter from Joline. I'm assuming
• 44:00
  Speaker 2: that came through a gateway. I don't really know, but Basically,
• 44:03
  Speaker 2: what that says is the whole caravan that Vannon and
• 44:08
  Speaker 2: his soldiers were accompanying back to the White Tower. So
• 44:11
  Speaker 2: bethamn ceda Julian Therah, a Guinan. Right, all those people
• 44:16
  Speaker 2: have arrived in the White Tower, so the rest of
• 44:19
  Speaker 2: his soldiers can come back from that excursion. And we
• 44:22
  Speaker 2: also know that that's a Gainan can now be like
• 44:24
  Speaker 2: Elaine's warder and like all that that whole plot line
• 44:27
  Speaker 2: can start because these people are now in the White Tower.
• 44:30
  Speaker 1: Yeah, Agwayne's order.
• 44:31
  Speaker 2: But yes, did I say Elaine?
• 44:33
  Speaker 1: Of course he did.
• 44:34
  Speaker 2: Of course I did. Fuck.
• 44:37
  Speaker 1: You got one more year to perfect this.
• 44:40
  Speaker 2: Difference. It's not like I don't know the fucking difference.
• 44:43
  Speaker 2: I hate that my brain cannot fix those things.
• 44:46
  Speaker 1: See, And yeah, Jolene apparently had nothing but praise and
• 44:49
  Speaker 1: respect for Matt, and Matt doesn't believe it. And I
• 44:54
  Speaker 1: don't know what to say about that.
• 44:56
  Speaker 2: Because he doesn't believe that other people can see the truth.
• 45:00
  Speaker 2: He's actually a really good guy, or at least he
• 45:02
  Speaker 2: used to be before Sanderson took over.
• 45:05
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I don't know this. This Matt is just so
• 45:08
  Speaker 1: inflexible about understanding that other people exist.
• 45:11
  Speaker 2: Yeah, there's no empathy in his brain whatsoever.
• 45:15
  Speaker 1: Yeah, so then Matt and Tatala. Matt asks Tatala about
• 45:21
  Speaker 1: what it's like being stilled. Yeah, not totally sure why
• 45:25
  Speaker 1: he asks. I think it's just this rare moment of
• 45:28
  Speaker 1: him actually being curious about someone else's experience, which I
• 45:30
  Speaker 1: just criticized him for not being capable of doing. So.
• 45:33
  Speaker 1: I guess I got to eat my words there.
• 45:35
  Speaker 2: But he doesn't do anything with it. It's not.
• 45:40
  Speaker 1: Why do you think he asks?
• 45:42
  Speaker 2: Hmmm? I think it's more just Sanderson finding a reason
• 45:45
  Speaker 2: to have a conversation about on On. He's again he
• 45:51
  Speaker 2: likes to put everything out there in the open, and
• 45:53
  Speaker 2: so just in this moment, she says something about, oh
• 45:55
  Speaker 2: I lost something, and he just takes that as an
• 45:58
  Speaker 2: opportunity to actually ask something he's been curious about, like
• 46:02
  Speaker 2: what is it like to lose? Because like, I feel
• 46:05
  Speaker 2: like he's been around enough, I said, I I think
• 46:07
  Speaker 2: maybe also maybe he's thinking about Tuon and like maybe
• 46:10
  Speaker 2: he can get a convincer to be stilled.
• 46:14
  Speaker 1: I wonder if he's also worrying about Moraine. Hmmm, because
• 46:18
  Speaker 1: he doesn't know what the snakes and foxes are doing
• 46:20
  Speaker 1: to her.
• 46:21
  Speaker 2: That's a good point. Yeah, it's I feel like they're
• 46:24
  Speaker 2: just having a heart to heart, right, It's just this
• 46:25
  Speaker 2: moment where they're like, he's leaving, he knows, he's saying goodbye,
• 46:30
  Speaker 2: you know, He's like, she asks him why he hates
• 46:34
  Speaker 2: I said I Finally, like they're just having an open
• 46:36
  Speaker 2: and conversation. Finally, after all of these months of sort
• 46:40
  Speaker 2: of dancing around these subjects, it feels like he's like,
• 46:42
  Speaker 2: I'm leaving, I want to have a final conversation before
• 46:45
  Speaker 2: I go, and he really because he's also being like
• 46:48
  Speaker 2: if I die, I want you to take care of
• 46:50
  Speaker 2: my child.
• 46:51
  Speaker 1: Also that he is she is essentially Oliver's godmother at
• 46:55
  Speaker 1: this point. The way that he leaves her is like,
• 46:58
  Speaker 1: you can go live your own life and do whatever
• 47:00
  Speaker 1: you want, just as soon as we make sure that
• 47:02
  Speaker 1: I'm not going to leave Oliver orphaned again.
• 47:03
  Speaker 2: Mm hmmm. And so they're having this, you know, giant,
• 47:07
  Speaker 2: you know, very honest and open conversation. Matt does his
• 47:10
  Speaker 2: boot speech, which I don't think we need to talk
• 47:12
  Speaker 2: about that much.
• 47:13
  Speaker 1: I just have the correction of the fact that I
• 47:17
  Speaker 1: have a small, a small thing to say about it.
• 47:19
  Speaker 2: Okay, I think say, you're saying, I don't. I don't
• 47:21
  Speaker 2: have much to say about the boot speech.
• 47:24
  Speaker 1: Okay, so the bootspeech sucks. All we all know that
• 47:26
  Speaker 1: the bootspeech is stupid and terrible and dumb, and we
• 47:29
  Speaker 1: don't need to care about it. But it always makes
• 47:32
  Speaker 1: me think, isn't there this other thing about boots where
• 47:35
  Speaker 1: it's really expensive to be poor?
• 47:38
  Speaker 2: Right?
• 47:38
  Speaker 1: There's this whole rant about using boots as a way
• 47:41
  Speaker 1: of understanding the cost of being poor. And so I
• 47:45
  Speaker 1: went on to the Internet and I looked it up.
• 47:47
  Speaker 1: And this is a Terry Pratchett reference. Terry Pratchett has
• 47:52
  Speaker 1: a character called Sam Vimes who goes on this whole rant,
• 47:58
  Speaker 1: the boot theory of socio economic unfairness. That is a
• 48:03
  Speaker 1: Terry Pratchet rant, and it is nothing like this stupid
• 48:08
  Speaker 1: Brandon Sanderson boots rant about how rich people are dumb
• 48:11
  Speaker 1: for having too many boots. Terry Pratchie rant is about
• 48:15
  Speaker 1: how a rich person can afford to buy one pair
• 48:18
  Speaker 1: of boots that kicks ass, whereas a poor person will
• 48:21
  Speaker 1: continue to buy shitty pairs of boots and do shitty
• 48:23
  Speaker 1: repairs on them and continue to have wet feet and
• 48:26
  Speaker 1: much less money than the rich guy who has dry
• 48:28
  Speaker 1: feet and doesn't have to keep spending money on boots
• 48:30
  Speaker 1: because he could just buy the good boots in the
• 48:32
  Speaker 1: first place. Totally different than Sanderson's conclusion that only honest
• 48:37
  Speaker 1: to upright moral people would understand that you only need
• 48:41
  Speaker 1: three pairs of boots, and anyone with more pairs of
• 48:43
  Speaker 1: boots than that is morally corrupt. Completely different takeaway. But
• 48:48
  Speaker 1: they're both rants about boots and.
• 48:49
  Speaker 2: Rich people versus poor people on how they treat boots.
• 48:52
  Speaker 2: This feels more about feels more like Matt complaining that
• 48:55
  Speaker 2: his wife has lots of shoes in the closet and
• 48:57
  Speaker 2: his like wants to go shopping.
• 48:58
  Speaker 1: For more, right, which Toni's is his wife? To be clear,
• 49:01
  Speaker 1: Tomanis and Matt should have been a couple. Toni's is
• 49:04
  Speaker 1: Matt's husband. But yeah, there is a good boots ran
• 49:07
  Speaker 1: out there and it's by Terry Pratchett. That's my rant.
• 49:09
  Speaker 2: But yeah, no, this is this literally is like a
• 49:12
  Speaker 2: gay man complaining about his husbands and all the shoes
• 49:14
  Speaker 2: that are in the closet the s to carry around.
• 49:16
  Speaker 1: Yeah, like exactly, which is adorable because Matt and Tomany
• 49:20
  Speaker 1: should be married.
• 49:22
  Speaker 2: But yeah, way more so than Matt and two on
• 49:25
  Speaker 2: so much. They have so much more in common and
• 49:28
  Speaker 2: chemistry and yeah.
• 49:29
  Speaker 1: Yeah, they have chemistry. They have a similar sense of humor,
• 49:32
  Speaker 1: they have similar desires in life, they hang out together,
• 49:35
  Speaker 1: they have similar friend groups.
• 49:37
  Speaker 2: And Mary him would still make madd and noble. So ha. Yeah,
• 49:45
  Speaker 2: I have I have too many pairs of shoes for sure,
• 49:47
  Speaker 2: but they do have purposes.
• 49:49
  Speaker 1: Oh, living somewhere like western Oregon, you have to have
• 49:52
  Speaker 1: a lot of pairs of shoes just to handle the
• 49:54
  Speaker 1: weather variation. I imagine a lot of places are like
• 49:56
  Speaker 1: that if you just go with like the sheer weather demands, right, Like,
• 49:59
  Speaker 1: I need summer sandals that I can go running around
• 50:01
  Speaker 1: in the creek in. And I also need rubber boots
• 50:04
  Speaker 1: for the winter when the ground.
• 50:06
  Speaker 2: Is mush, and comfy shoes for like those sunny, nice
• 50:09
  Speaker 2: days when you're just out walking.
• 50:10
  Speaker 1: Yeah, totally. You need your barken stocks, you need your
• 50:13
  Speaker 1: flip flops. Yeah, the whole people are ridiculous for having
• 50:19
  Speaker 1: shoes that match their clotheses, Like I don't. I don't
• 50:22
  Speaker 1: have a lot of pairs of shoes because I'm autistic
• 50:24
  Speaker 1: and I don't like change.
• 50:25
  Speaker 2: But I don't know.
• 50:26
  Speaker 1: It's a weird rant Bouji.
• 50:28
  Speaker 2: I like that. If we were, let's turn all the
• 50:30
  Speaker 2: main characters gay, who would they be with, right, Matt
• 50:33
  Speaker 2: with Talmness. We've established that obviously, Yes, obviously that parent
• 50:37
  Speaker 2: with Gall I think is obviously right. Like, uh yeah, Moran,
• 50:43
  Speaker 2: it feels a little masturbatory considering he ends up in
• 50:46
  Speaker 2: that body.
• 50:47
  Speaker 1: Yeah, that feels weird. Plus Morgan sucks be so toxic.
• 50:51
  Speaker 1: What about Rand with like time or low game.
• 50:55
  Speaker 2: Mm No, there's no chemistry.
• 50:58
  Speaker 1: There, No, there's not. Who does Rand to ever interact
• 51:01
  Speaker 1: with it? He has chemistry? Ruark? Okay, yeah, Rando and
• 51:05
  Speaker 1: Daddy Ruark.
• 51:08
  Speaker 2: There we go, There we go, the older man taking
• 51:11
  Speaker 2: the younger, the young gay under his wing and teaching
• 51:14
  Speaker 2: him the ways.
• 51:15
  Speaker 1: Yeah, oh, I guess Asmodian Randon as Modian definitely was
• 51:18
  Speaker 1: a thing for a while.
• 51:20
  Speaker 2: Yeah, but that was a toxic relationship the whole way through.
• 51:23
  Speaker 2: That was wildly toxic.
• 51:25
  Speaker 1: If we're gonna pair Rand up with someone who would
• 51:26
  Speaker 1: be good for him, then if we want to just
• 51:31
  Speaker 1: watch toxic stuff go down, then yeah, Asmodian or Mordan
• 51:36
  Speaker 1: really any of his exes from the age of.
• 51:39
  Speaker 2: Any of his male the like Demondred, like the jealous one.
• 51:44
  Speaker 1: Yeah, totally totally. I mean like in the show, like
• 51:48
  Speaker 1: the Thrupple energy between land fear Rand and Ishamel, like
• 51:54
  Speaker 1: the Thrupple toxicity there was, like I was there for it.
• 51:58
  Speaker 1: I'm like, I like this canon canon is fine. So
• 52:02
  Speaker 1: and yeah, if Matt is canonically with two on them,
• 52:04
  Speaker 1: Ran can have a toxic gay ship, that's fine, that's fine,
• 52:07
  Speaker 1: that's fine. But this the Morigin just feels too masturbatory.
• 52:10
  Speaker 2: So then Ninive mgedian.
• 52:13
  Speaker 1: Ogion definitely the hate fucking there absolutely.
• 52:19
  Speaker 2: Either that or like, who's the kin who always just
• 52:23
  Speaker 2: infuriates her and always alis Yeah, who's just always like
• 52:27
  Speaker 2: there ahead of her?
• 52:29
  Speaker 1: Maybe maybe, but no, Mugeddion is the toxic gay ship
• 52:32
  Speaker 1: for Ninive. If Ninieve is trying to fix her, you
• 52:36
  Speaker 1: know it's the I can fix.
• 52:38
  Speaker 2: It clearly, clearly, Like she doesn't keep her in the
• 52:42
  Speaker 2: collar for nothing, right, Like.
• 52:48
  Speaker 1: Anyway, we could go down this rabbit hole all day.
• 52:50
  Speaker 1: I know a whole server where people have done so
• 52:55
  Speaker 1: we can return now that we're done with clearing our
• 52:58
  Speaker 1: palettes from that.
• 52:59
  Speaker 2: Little boots right right right from the boots.
• 53:02
  Speaker 1: Yeah, we have the part where he essentially nominates Satala
• 53:05
  Speaker 1: to be Oliver's godmother.
• 53:06
  Speaker 2: Oh can I see. The other thing I really hate
• 53:08
  Speaker 2: about the Boots thing is that at the end of it,
• 53:10
  Speaker 2: Satala says, so this is the metaphor you're creating.
• 53:15
  Speaker 1: Come on, come.
• 53:17
  Speaker 2: On, Sanderson, at least leave the metaphor.
• 53:20
  Speaker 1: On said really, but so you can show how men
• 53:24
  Speaker 1: are just dumb little boys that happen to know things,
• 53:27
  Speaker 1: and women have to use their big, fancy women brains
• 53:30
  Speaker 1: in order to comprehend something that's so intuitively understandable to
• 53:33
  Speaker 1: our sweet golden dice boy.
• 53:36
  Speaker 2: I bah, yeah. That that I think is what really
• 53:41
  Speaker 2: ruined the bet Boots speech for me is like saying, Okay,
• 53:44
  Speaker 2: now I'm not even gonna let you interpret it. I'm
• 53:46
  Speaker 2: going to interpret it for you through this, you know,
• 53:50
  Speaker 2: Satala on self insert an yeah.
• 53:54
  Speaker 1: So yeah. Then we kind of wrap up the chapter
• 53:57
  Speaker 1: with him turning his attention into the power of Genji
• 54:01
  Speaker 1: and how it was so difficult for Brigida and the
• 54:05
  Speaker 1: concept of rules, and that's kind of how we waltz
• 54:09
  Speaker 1: our way out of the chapter.
• 54:10
  Speaker 2: Well, and him tossing the letter down on the table
• 54:13
  Speaker 2: for Oliver to find later of course and open.
• 54:16
  Speaker 1: Yeah, if you won't do it, maybe your son will,
• 54:18
  Speaker 1: right that.
• 54:20
  Speaker 2: Basically, that's I feel like what the pattern here was
• 54:22
  Speaker 2: saying is like, either open it now or put it
• 54:25
  Speaker 2: in the place where somebody else can at the last minute,
• 54:27
  Speaker 2: at least I'm not going to say save the city
• 54:30
  Speaker 2: but react to the invasion.
• 54:32
  Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, they would have saved the city if Matt
• 54:35
  Speaker 1: hadn't been so goddamn stubborn. Maybe not saved the city,
• 54:38
  Speaker 1: but given the city a much better fighting chance.
• 54:54
  Speaker 2: And that rolls us right in two, chapter fifty three Gateways.
• 54:59
  Speaker 1: Which starts not with Matt going into the Tower of Genji,
• 55:03
  Speaker 1: but rather a different place where gateways don't work, the
• 55:06
  Speaker 1: Black Tower with Pevara. Yeah, and she's walking around going wow,
• 55:13
  Speaker 1: men can use the power to do sawmill stuff too.
• 55:17
  Speaker 2: Right, Yeah, just the updating us on how big and
• 55:21
  Speaker 2: how fast the tower is. The Black Tower is growing, right,
• 55:23
  Speaker 2: They're able to do all this construction even though it's
• 55:26
  Speaker 2: only been around for a few months. You can expect
• 55:28
  Speaker 2: big structures, you can expect walls, you can expect like,
• 55:32
  Speaker 2: this thing is growing fast.
• 55:33
  Speaker 1: And Pevara is with Javindra and Tayim. They're getting toured
• 55:37
  Speaker 1: around new stuff with Tayim, and Javindra and Pevara are
• 55:41
  Speaker 1: trying to sort of press the point about bonding Ashiman
• 55:45
  Speaker 1: with pin full Ashaman. Tayim is still saying, no, you
• 55:48
  Speaker 1: can't do that, and that's kind of what they're talking about,
• 55:53
  Speaker 1: is he's showing off, Hey, we're all fortified. And also,
• 55:55
  Speaker 1: by the way, now there's a curfew and security cameras
• 55:58
  Speaker 1: blah blah blah.
• 55:59
  Speaker 2: So okay, question, Tarna has clearly been turned and that's
• 56:03
  Speaker 2: why she wants to stay. Has Javendra as well, I believe,
• 56:08
  Speaker 2: So okay, that was because she doesn't see the coldness
• 56:11
  Speaker 2: in Javendra's eyes, but Javendra has had this change of
• 56:16
  Speaker 2: opinion that seems to indicate that she has been turned.
• 56:20
  Speaker 1: Yeah, to me, that just read that Pevara was more
• 56:24
  Speaker 1: familiar with Tarna as a person and so could see
• 56:27
  Speaker 1: the change in her eyes, whereas Devendra's maybe just a
• 56:29
  Speaker 1: more distant person from her. That was my interpretation of that.
• 56:33
  Speaker 1: And Tayim also gives us the time stamp of it
• 56:35
  Speaker 1: has been weeks that they've been here stalling and this
• 56:39
  Speaker 1: other group of ice TODAYE is outside the gates waiting,
• 56:41
  Speaker 1: and we're in this weird stalemate that has lasted for
• 56:44
  Speaker 1: a kind of indeterminate amount of time to fit plot,
• 56:47
  Speaker 1: but also a long time to give you a sense
• 56:50
  Speaker 1: of this time has just really slowed down and ground
• 56:53
  Speaker 1: to a halt here.
• 56:54
  Speaker 2: So just checking the loatwikie, it does this is the
• 56:58
  Speaker 2: last time we see Javendra. There's no, she doesn't like
• 57:00
  Speaker 2: a peer later but it does say she was turned
• 57:03
  Speaker 2: to the shadow in the wiki. But yeah, this is
• 57:06
  Speaker 2: this is not We don't get a lot more information
• 57:08
  Speaker 2: about her, but I think that's an.
• 57:09
  Speaker 1: Interpretation probably from this chapter.
• 57:12
  Speaker 2: Yeah, that's just based on this.
• 57:15
  Speaker 1: Yeah, so they're you know, only six of them and
• 57:19
  Speaker 1: they haven't picked their ones, and there's a lot more
• 57:21
  Speaker 1: of the rebels outside. But you know, there's all these
• 57:23
  Speaker 1: factions happening, and Tam doesn't really care because he knows
• 57:26
  Speaker 1: that the news is closing in. Right, He's looking at
• 57:30
  Speaker 1: Pavara like a piece of meat, like a piece of prey,
• 57:33
  Speaker 1: right because he knows that he's been turning more and
• 57:35
  Speaker 1: more eyes to die every night. Right, he knows that
• 57:37
  Speaker 1: the list of sisters he has yet to get to
• 57:40
  Speaker 1: is running perilously short, and that Pavara is one of
• 57:43
  Speaker 1: those few, right.
• 57:45
  Speaker 2: And because it's easy for them to turn women, because
• 57:47
  Speaker 2: they have a bunch of aschaman, and it's easy to
• 57:50
  Speaker 2: turn someone of the opposite gender. That's why they're having
• 57:52
  Speaker 2: trouble turning low Gain, because they don't have any females
• 57:56
  Speaker 2: in the circle to turn him.
• 57:58
  Speaker 1: Right, right, you have still have to have thirteen in
• 58:00
  Speaker 1: order to turn someone, but it becomes like a non
• 58:04
  Speaker 1: negotiable for the tourney.
• 58:06
  Speaker 2: And so to me, this feels very much like we
• 58:11
  Speaker 2: are changing the rules of the turning and the corruption.
• 58:16
  Speaker 2: I mean, in a lot of ways, he's flushing them out.
• 58:19
  Speaker 2: But my understanding up to this point is basically thirteen
• 58:21
  Speaker 2: channel ers, thirteen mrdrawl. There's no it's not like something
• 58:25
  Speaker 2: you can resist. It's not a process, it's just something
• 58:27
  Speaker 2: they did to you. And the whole thing with Logan
• 58:31
  Speaker 2: being under the control for multiple days and going under
• 58:33
  Speaker 2: torture and having to break and being able to resist,
• 58:37
  Speaker 2: I don't know, that felt like a very significant change
• 58:40
  Speaker 2: in terms of what I understood the process was of
• 58:45
  Speaker 2: corrupting someone to the dark side.
• 58:48
  Speaker 1: Maybe it's just that they don't have thirteen murderral on
• 58:51
  Speaker 1: hand at all times, so they're trying to convince him
• 58:56
  Speaker 1: with less.
• 58:58
  Speaker 2: Think Yeah, yeah, and then it's not clear to me
• 59:01
  Speaker 2: if you can use someone who was turned to as
• 59:03
  Speaker 2: part of the circle. Seems like you should be able to.
• 59:05
  Speaker 1: Yeah, that's weird. Do you think, Yeah, you could have
• 59:07
  Speaker 1: done exponential growth like bootstrapping the way through converting everyone
• 59:12
  Speaker 1: Becaure's only six of them, That's what I'm saying. I
• 59:14
  Speaker 1: don't know, that'sird.
• 59:16
  Speaker 2: And he's turned at least a couple of them, right,
• 59:18
  Speaker 2: it seems odd to me that he hasn't grabbed Pavara
• 59:20
  Speaker 2: at this point.
• 59:21
  Speaker 1: Yeah, this seems like it's a slower burn than it
• 59:23
  Speaker 1: needs to be. So yeah, then Tayam gives us this
• 59:25
  Speaker 1: weird metaphor about seeing a bird choking on two fish
• 59:30
  Speaker 1: and then taking all three animals for his dinner.
• 59:33
  Speaker 2: It's blatantly saying, hey, I'm a dark friend, and like
• 59:36
  Speaker 2: I'm letting the White Tower and the Rebels, you know,
• 59:39
  Speaker 2: fight it out, and I'm just going to benefit from both.
• 59:41
  Speaker 1: Yeah. He's like, you're a small fish and they're a
• 59:44
  Speaker 1: big fish, and the Tower is a bird, and I am.
• 59:49
  Speaker 2: Me that's kind of how I think more it's you're
• 59:52
  Speaker 2: a small fish, they're the bird. They're going to choke
• 59:54
  Speaker 2: on you, and I'm going to feast on both of
• 59:56
  Speaker 2: you know, basically take advantage and have both.
• 59:58
  Speaker 1: But then he's keeping the groups of part so they can't.
• 1:00:02
  Speaker 1: I don't know. It feels like a very tortured and
• 1:00:04
  Speaker 1: meaningless metaphor for him to just be evil through.
• 1:00:07
  Speaker 2: Right right right, because like they're they're the thing they're
• 1:00:11
  Speaker 2: choking on is the fish. I assume the fish are
• 1:00:13
  Speaker 2: the oshamon they want to bond. Yeah, sure, and trying
• 1:00:17
  Speaker 2: to bond them is going to choke and kill both
• 1:00:19
  Speaker 2: of them, and then tam will beast on the remnants.
• 1:00:22
  Speaker 1: Yeah. I mean he's going to turn everyone male and female, right,
• 1:00:26
  Speaker 1: that's his plan as whether he's actually forsaken, if he's demondred,
• 1:00:32
  Speaker 1: or if he's an aspiring new forsaken. Either way, he's
• 1:00:35
  Speaker 1: going for a black tower full of turned male and
• 1:00:38
  Speaker 1: female channelers.
• 1:00:39
  Speaker 2: And I feel like this goes back to the fish
• 1:00:41
  Speaker 2: can't teach a bird to swim, and a bird can't
• 1:00:43
  Speaker 2: teach a fish to fly.
• 1:00:47
  Speaker 1: About that. Yeah, it's still a dumb metaphor, but at
• 1:00:52
  Speaker 1: least bringing that other saying back into it. That's a
• 1:00:56
  Speaker 1: little bark lover, and the dark One wins when you
• 1:00:58
  Speaker 1: fight with each other exactly the metafore takeaway.
• 1:01:02
  Speaker 2: Here when the men and the women are fighting, you
• 1:01:03
  Speaker 2: have so yeah, I guess the fish in this case
• 1:01:05
  Speaker 2: would have to be the men, the bird would have
• 1:01:07
  Speaker 2: to be the women.
• 1:01:09
  Speaker 1: Yeah, and Tayim is the dark one decided.
• 1:01:12
  Speaker 2: Who's feasting off in both of them? Yes, I think
• 1:01:15
  Speaker 2: I think this is the case. Tayame is just tyme
• 1:01:17
  Speaker 2: beasting on both of them, right, like, yeah, well.
• 1:01:19
  Speaker 1: Tayim is a bad guy who's trying to kiss up
• 1:01:21
  Speaker 1: to the dark One, so you know, yeah, yeah, mentions
• 1:01:25
  Speaker 1: how the Ashamon are brutally beaten and forbidden healing, but
• 1:01:29
  Speaker 1: the eyes to die are given deference that borders on mockery,
• 1:01:32
  Speaker 1: and then she tries to convince Davendra like, you know,
• 1:01:34
  Speaker 1: maybe maybe we've been reaching too far. Maybe we just
• 1:01:36
  Speaker 1: grab a few and we bounce, and Javendra says, no,
• 1:01:39
  Speaker 1: I've completely changed my mind for mysterious reasons.
• 1:01:42
  Speaker 2: Because I learned so much, like how to worship the
• 1:01:45
  Speaker 2: dark One.
• 1:01:46
  Speaker 1: Yeah, And unfortunately Pavara was having a great difficulty reading
• 1:01:50
  Speaker 1: Javendra lately. Right, there's all these senses of like something
• 1:01:53
  Speaker 1: changed recently, but you'd think recently would be like last night,
• 1:01:56
  Speaker 1: because at the speed at which they're doing this turning thing,
• 1:01:59
  Speaker 1: I don't know. And then Javender mentions, well, we're safe
• 1:02:02
  Speaker 1: because you know, we've got gateways that you know it's
• 1:02:06
  Speaker 1: not true, but Javendra's using it as a means of
• 1:02:10
  Speaker 1: trying to get Pavar to.
• 1:02:11
  Speaker 2: Chill out, well, knowing probably that the gateways can't be
• 1:02:14
  Speaker 2: formed because of the dream spike. Yeah, because yeah, I'm
• 1:02:17
  Speaker 2: one hundred percent convinced that Javender has been changed, been
• 1:02:21
  Speaker 2: turned at this point. Yeah, because they all do eventually
• 1:02:23
  Speaker 2: get turned before, because Bavar is the only one left
• 1:02:26
  Speaker 2: who's not turned right.
• 1:02:27
  Speaker 1: Yes, yes, Yeah. So she's you know, kind of starting
• 1:02:30
  Speaker 1: to make per plans to get out of here. She's like, yeah,
• 1:02:32
  Speaker 1: maybe I could take three I don't know.
• 1:02:34
  Speaker 2: Oh yeah, you can handle three orders at the same time.
• 1:02:39
  Speaker 2: Oh yeah. She's like, oh man, the implications, and she is.
• 1:02:48
  Speaker 1: Not thinking about them in a sexual I don't think.
• 1:02:50
  Speaker 2: I know. I don't either. I don't either, but that
• 1:02:53
  Speaker 2: there's just a couple of lines here where I'm like, Sanderson,
• 1:02:56
  Speaker 2: did you mean to write the did you praising? Praising?
• 1:03:00
  Speaker 1: But she does actively think down here in the next
• 1:03:02
  Speaker 1: paragraph about how she thinks it's weird that the women
• 1:03:05
  Speaker 1: that are bonded to the Ashaman are trying the iside
• 1:03:07
  Speaker 1: that are bonded to Ashaman are trying to convince them
• 1:03:10
  Speaker 1: using various methods. It's crossing this line, and so, yeah,
• 1:03:15
  Speaker 1: exactly exactly. So she goes to her hut to Tarna,
• 1:03:19
  Speaker 1: who's the Isidaye she trusts most, the one that she's
• 1:03:22
  Speaker 1: intentionally bunking with, the one that she's sort of sharing
• 1:03:24
  Speaker 1: the leadership with the most, and Tarna she knows well
• 1:03:28
  Speaker 1: enough to see that something is different at a soul level, right.
• 1:03:34
  Speaker 1: She tries to convince her that they should go, and
• 1:03:36
  Speaker 1: Tarna's like, now, we're good, We're good, We're good. And
• 1:03:38
  Speaker 1: then Pavara kind of she doesn't exactly lie, but she
• 1:03:42
  Speaker 1: gets real damn close to it with her self preservation
• 1:03:45
  Speaker 1: as she sort of obfuscates how intensely uncomfortable she is
• 1:03:50
  Speaker 1: in front of Tarna.
• 1:03:51
  Speaker 2: What does she say, Well, you may be right.
• 1:03:54
  Speaker 1: This expedition was your suggestion after all, and we'll think
• 1:03:57
  Speaker 1: on it further, if you'll excuse me. Where she was
• 1:03:59
  Speaker 1: in there trying to be like, we need to get out,
• 1:04:02
  Speaker 1: and then Tarna says no, and she's she back pedals
• 1:04:05
  Speaker 1: up to the edge of life. She's like, yeah, you're
• 1:04:08
  Speaker 1: maybe right. I'll go think about it some more, which
• 1:04:12
  Speaker 1: means this, holy fuck, what is going on? I need
• 1:04:14
  Speaker 1: to figure this out without your help, because you were
• 1:04:16
  Speaker 1: apparently a liability, like it is you may be right.
• 1:04:20
  Speaker 1: That may is a lot of point.
• 1:04:23
  Speaker 2: Zero zero zero zero zero zero zero zero zero one
• 1:04:26
  Speaker 2: percent chance that she may be right, but you may
• 1:04:28
  Speaker 2: be the.
• 1:04:29
  Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, and yeah. She she sort of scoots out
• 1:04:33
  Speaker 1: of there and goes to run off to try a
• 1:04:35
  Speaker 1: gateway to just that. Can I panic bounce?
• 1:04:37
  Speaker 2: And she can't because we have the dream spike. So
• 1:04:42
  Speaker 2: we've had multiple indications there's a dream spike here. We
• 1:04:44
  Speaker 2: know what it is from parents whole thing, so and
• 1:04:47
  Speaker 2: this must be a different one because he's destroyed the
• 1:04:49
  Speaker 2: other one.
• 1:04:50
  Speaker 1: Right, But now the people that are trapped know they're trapped. Right.
• 1:04:53
  Speaker 1: This has been put in place without anyone who's intended
• 1:04:57
  Speaker 1: to be trapped being aware of it. And now one
• 1:04:59
  Speaker 1: of the intended victims says finally realized, oh no, oh no.
• 1:05:04
  Speaker 2: And I think this is Partially what leads to the
• 1:05:06
  Speaker 2: panic and the double bond of yes, right, is because
• 1:05:09
  Speaker 2: she's panicked.
• 1:05:10
  Speaker 1: She does not respond well to feeling trapped. Multiple times
• 1:05:14
  Speaker 1: she lashes out and does something rash because she feels trapped.
• 1:05:17
  Speaker 1: That is a Pivara thing, and yeah, this definitely leads
• 1:05:21
  Speaker 1: to her and Antrel having the double bond, and yeah.
• 1:05:24
  Speaker 2: That's she. That ends with her panicking over the weave
• 1:05:29
  Speaker 2: of gateways not forming, which is funny because it's something
• 1:05:31
  Speaker 2: you never had before and now you thought you had
• 1:05:34
  Speaker 2: it and then you don't have it again, and that
• 1:05:36
  Speaker 2: induces a panic.
• 1:05:37
  Speaker 1: She took a risk she wouldn't have taken before. If
• 1:05:40
  Speaker 1: she didn't have gateways, she might have taken this risk
• 1:05:43
  Speaker 1: in a very different way going into the Black Tower.
• 1:05:46
  Speaker 1: But yeah, you jumped out of a plane and now
• 1:05:48
  Speaker 1: your shoot isn't deploying, you know.
• 1:05:51
  Speaker 2: And that combined with someone saying oh, yeah, by the way,
• 1:05:53
  Speaker 2: the ground's a lot further down than Tam saying you
• 1:05:56
  Speaker 2: can't leave right, yeah, yeah, oh, by the way, you
• 1:05:58
  Speaker 2: don't have a backup shoot. Basic it is like, yeah, yeah,
• 1:06:03
  Speaker 2: we thought the primary shoot would be fine. Uh, primary
• 1:06:05
  Speaker 2: shoots not the playing and you don't have a backup. Shoot.
• 1:06:08
  Speaker 1: Oh shoot, yes, oh forking shirt balls, no, forking ship balls.
• 1:06:15
  Speaker 2: A good place was a good show. But that takes
• 1:06:17
  Speaker 2: us to the parent POV. Parent clasped hands with Matt.
• 1:06:22
  Speaker 2: Good luck, my friend, Matt Grinn, tugging down the broad
• 1:06:25
  Speaker 2: brim of his dark hat. Luck. I hope this all
• 1:06:28
  Speaker 2: comes down to luck. I'm good with luck. Matt carried
• 1:06:32
  Speaker 2: a bulging pack over one shoulder, as did the bony,
• 1:06:35
  Speaker 2: gnarled man that Matt had introduced as nol. Tom had
• 1:06:39
  Speaker 2: his harp on his back in a similar pack. Parents
• 1:06:42
  Speaker 2: still wasn't clear on what they were bringing. Matt only
• 1:06:44
  Speaker 2: planned to be at the tower for a few days,
• 1:06:46
  Speaker 2: so there was no need for a lot of supplies.
• 1:06:48
  Speaker 2: The small group stood on the traveling ground outside parents camp.
• 1:06:52
  Speaker 2: Behind them, parents people shouted back and forth, breaking down
• 1:06:55
  Speaker 2: the camp. None had any inkling of how important this
• 1:06:58
  Speaker 2: day could prove Moraine Moraine was alive. Light, let it
• 1:07:02
  Speaker 2: be so, Yes, it is very much so. Oh it's
• 1:07:05
  Speaker 2: been what a year since she was captured? In real time?
• 1:07:09
  Speaker 2: Is what I'm thinking?
• 1:07:10
  Speaker 1: Close to it? I think? Yeah.
• 1:07:14
  Speaker 2: My rule of thumb is after Lord of Chaos. Each
• 1:07:18
  Speaker 2: book covers about a month, give or take, and she
• 1:07:22
  Speaker 2: was captured at the end of Fires of Heaven, So
• 1:07:27
  Speaker 2: call it six months plus Lord of Chaos time. Maybe
• 1:07:32
  Speaker 2: eight months plus Lord of Chaos time. So I go
• 1:07:35
  Speaker 2: look at the calendar and get it more specific.
• 1:07:37
  Speaker 1: But yeah, more than half a year, less than a
• 1:07:39
  Speaker 1: whole year, seems reasonable. And Marzavan asks a good question,
• 1:07:44
  Speaker 1: wouldn't parents smell the gunpowder that's in their packs because
• 1:07:48
  Speaker 1: they have a bunch of fireworks.
• 1:07:50
  Speaker 2: Yeah, but he doesn't know what it is.
• 1:07:52
  Speaker 1: But he was still smelled fireworks. He smelled fireworks before.
• 1:07:56
  Speaker 1: Sure fail Sanderson fail.
• 1:07:59
  Speaker 2: Is the smell is a little inconsistent.
• 1:08:02
  Speaker 1: Yeah, parents, you know, trying to offer any more resources
• 1:08:05
  Speaker 1: and it's like, no, no, no, this is all we can take.
• 1:08:07
  Speaker 1: You can't send more people with us. Appreciate it, but no.
• 1:08:10
  Speaker 2: No, it's all ordained. Yeah, it's prophecy. And then his
• 1:08:16
  Speaker 2: arm attached to my toes be caared of to kicks up.
• 1:08:19
  Speaker 2: I'm attached to those toes. Yeah, of course you are. Yeah,
• 1:08:23
  Speaker 2: there's there's some bad jokes in here, for sure.
• 1:08:26
  Speaker 1: Tom Asks is every last farm boy I know going
• 1:08:28
  Speaker 1: to transform into a nobleman by the time this is through.
• 1:08:31
  Speaker 2: Basically, yeah. I mean certainly the three boys that went
• 1:08:34
  Speaker 2: out of Emmen's Field and I the world are going
• 1:08:36
  Speaker 2: to be Yes, Nobles and I Neve and I mean yeah,
• 1:08:40
  Speaker 2: all the emmons Field five are all going to be
• 1:08:42
  Speaker 2: kings and queens.
• 1:08:43
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean the Omberline seat is equivalent to that,
• 1:08:45
  Speaker 1: even if we don't have, you know, a direct correlation
• 1:08:48
  Speaker 1: to nobility.
• 1:08:49
  Speaker 2: I mean you would say, the kings and queens bound
• 1:08:53
  Speaker 2: bow down to the Ambulin, right, like she's above the
• 1:08:55
  Speaker 2: kings and queens. Even she's the pope, right, yeah, she's
• 1:09:00
  Speaker 2: the Pope, right, Yeah, she's magic Pope.
• 1:09:02
  Speaker 1: Yeah, magic Pope of the Lady Witches obviously. And yeah,
• 1:09:06
  Speaker 1: they establish that there's going to be a gateway opening
• 1:09:09
  Speaker 1: at this spot once every twenty four hours until they
• 1:09:12
  Speaker 1: come back. They're going to have a once a day
• 1:09:14
  Speaker 1: chance to bring Morain back through to the army, which
• 1:09:18
  Speaker 1: is smart.
• 1:09:19
  Speaker 2: We get a mention of Paren's leg throbbing when he
• 1:09:22
  Speaker 2: was healed because it was a you know, dream world injury,
• 1:09:26
  Speaker 2: and that goes back to Varren saying, oh, are you
• 1:09:28
  Speaker 2: never nothing the injuries the injuries you take in the
• 1:09:31
  Speaker 2: dream world never fully healed.
• 1:09:33
  Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, dream injuries to the body are complicated.
• 1:09:38
  Speaker 2: Yeah, and never fully heals. Like that's interesting because for
• 1:09:41
  Speaker 2: him it's physically healed, but he can still feel it,
• 1:09:44
  Speaker 2: whereas with Varren it was physically not fully healed.
• 1:09:47
  Speaker 1: Well, she had a massive scar. The healing didn't fix
• 1:09:51
  Speaker 1: the scar because normally with healing you don't get a scar.
• 1:09:53
  Speaker 1: But it's not like Varren had like a stigmata like
• 1:09:56
  Speaker 1: never healing wound on her arm.
• 1:09:58
  Speaker 2: No, no, but she had a scar. But he doesn't
• 1:09:59
  Speaker 2: have a scar. He just has the pain.
• 1:10:01
  Speaker 1: Yeah, he's got a phantom pain wound thing. Yeah, it's
• 1:10:06
  Speaker 1: it's it's weird, but I like the idea that he's
• 1:10:08
  Speaker 1: going to carry an injury from that fight with Slayer
• 1:10:11
  Speaker 1: and the loss of Hopper like physically on his metaphysical
• 1:10:15
  Speaker 1: body forever.
• 1:10:16
  Speaker 2: But wasn't he also like shot through the gut in
• 1:10:20
  Speaker 2: the dream world or was that the real world? That
• 1:10:22
  Speaker 2: was the real world?
• 1:10:23
  Speaker 1: He was shot in the rib in the real world.
• 1:10:26
  Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, that was the Trollock thing.
• 1:10:29
  Speaker 1: But this was this was the era that punched through
• 1:10:31
  Speaker 1: Hopper in right, Like that's a very significant hit to
• 1:10:37
  Speaker 1: your soul, you know.
• 1:10:38
  Speaker 2: And it seems like, yeah, you're getting your soul injured,
• 1:10:41
  Speaker 2: not just your body.
• 1:10:42
  Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, your dream self took a hit so you
• 1:10:44
  Speaker 1: can figure out magic dream healing.
• 1:10:46
  Speaker 2: And I don't like the whole fayel wife doesn't like
• 1:10:49
  Speaker 2: your best friend because he's a bad influence. It's like
• 1:10:51
  Speaker 2: that boomer wife bad humor, he didn't.
• 1:10:54
  Speaker 1: Drank him as him in another heaven. Oh my god,
• 1:10:59
  Speaker 1: you know be hipper and cooler and more millennial. You're
• 1:11:02
  Speaker 1: the youngest one of this whole group. Why do you
• 1:11:04
  Speaker 1: sound like an old woman?
• 1:11:05
  Speaker 2: Nag? Because wife and marriage marriage bad?
• 1:11:08
  Speaker 1: I just then, don't get married, fucking weird ass men,
• 1:11:13
  Speaker 1: you don't like getting married, you don't like marriage, don't
• 1:11:16
  Speaker 1: get married.
• 1:11:17
  Speaker 2: If you don't like your wife. I wish I could
• 1:11:19
  Speaker 2: tell so many people at my work where I just
• 1:11:20
  Speaker 2: want to be like, if you don't like her, why
• 1:11:21
  Speaker 2: did you marry her?
• 1:11:22
  Speaker 1: Seriously?
• 1:11:24
  Speaker 2: And a number of men, Oh my god, I just
• 1:11:26
  Speaker 2: I hate the wait and see When I'm talking about
• 1:11:28
  Speaker 2: how much I like my wife and theo's men at
• 1:11:30
  Speaker 2: work will be like, we'll just wait and see things. Yeah,
• 1:11:33
  Speaker 2: it's like, fuck you guys. You live such miserable lives.
• 1:11:37
  Speaker 1: Have You've never been sincere and had an actual emotional
• 1:11:40
  Speaker 1: experience in your life. Wait and see how awesome it
• 1:11:44
  Speaker 1: is to be married like twenty years later and be like, right, damn,
• 1:11:47
  Speaker 1: we really know each other super well. You wait and
• 1:11:50
  Speaker 1: see how awesome it is to continue being married. That's
• 1:11:53
  Speaker 1: what I say.
• 1:11:54
  Speaker 2: We've been together for more than five years now, and
• 1:11:56
  Speaker 2: it's great.
• 1:11:57
  Speaker 1: So I do like thow the moment where as soon
• 1:12:00
  Speaker 1: as the gateway closes and Paren hears about Matt, he
• 1:12:03
  Speaker 1: immediately starts seeing visions with Matt, because they weren't seeing
• 1:12:06
  Speaker 1: visions while they were together. Like, yeah, that is I
• 1:12:09
  Speaker 1: just saw you like three seconds ago.
• 1:12:10
  Speaker 2: He's like, I'm gonna keep watching your progress. It is.
• 1:12:12
  Speaker 2: It would be kind of you know, it's like find
• 1:12:15
  Speaker 2: my friend turned on, but like involuntarily.
• 1:12:18
  Speaker 1: I mean, then you could just keep a conversation going
• 1:12:20
  Speaker 1: about someone and spy on them continuously.
• 1:12:22
  Speaker 2: Basically, yeah, as long as you're thinking about him, you
• 1:12:24
  Speaker 2: know exactly what they're doing, except like they don't really
• 1:12:27
  Speaker 2: want to know, you know. He's like, oh, thank god,
• 1:12:29
  Speaker 2: at least he's clothed, which tells you how much fucking
• 1:12:33
  Speaker 2: he's been doing.
• 1:12:34
  Speaker 1: I know, Rand might be depressed, but it has not
• 1:12:36
  Speaker 1: affected his libido apparently.
• 1:12:38
  Speaker 2: Min is as we say that dumb truck butt is
• 1:12:42
  Speaker 2: uh definitely rests the world, because upon that butt rest
• 1:12:47
  Speaker 2: Rand's sanity, and upon Rand's sanity rests the world.
• 1:12:51
  Speaker 1: I mean, there's no lass detected.
• 1:12:56
  Speaker 2: Other than the lack of any actual evidence of men
• 1:12:58
  Speaker 2: having a dumb truck ass. Just the phantom has decided.
• 1:13:01
  Speaker 2: We're going with it. It's our head canon.
• 1:13:03
  Speaker 1: I mean, I'd rather did she have a dump truck
• 1:13:05
  Speaker 1: ass than be yet another bookish waif, because girls have
• 1:13:09
  Speaker 1: to be tiny compared to their big, strong, masculine men,
• 1:13:11
  Speaker 1: and she have thunder thighs that could just crush RAN's
• 1:13:14
  Speaker 1: head if she needed to.
• 1:13:15
  Speaker 2: So finally, Grady and Neal link with a couple of
• 1:13:18
  Speaker 2: ice ad eye and create a giant gateway, something we've
• 1:13:21
  Speaker 2: you know, he has put off for so many reasons
• 1:13:24
  Speaker 2: paren not using a goddamn gateway. Now it's finally, it's
• 1:13:27
  Speaker 2: a relief almost to have him just yeah, here's a
• 1:13:29
  Speaker 2: giant one. Everybody marched through it.
• 1:13:31
  Speaker 1: Let's go yep, and we head to the field of
• 1:13:34
  Speaker 1: a mirryllor start getting our sense of how massive of
• 1:13:38
  Speaker 1: a gathering this actually is.
• 1:13:40
  Speaker 2: And if anything, it's an understatement, right like when we
• 1:13:43
  Speaker 2: actually look at all the armies that are that Jordan's
• 1:13:45
  Speaker 2: set up a lot of them and on a lot
• 1:13:47
  Speaker 2: of the numbers are missing from the last battle because
• 1:13:50
  Speaker 2: I think it would just be completely overwhelming, and like
• 1:13:53
  Speaker 2: just the millions and millions of people that the army
• 1:13:55
  Speaker 2: should be, they're closer to like hundreds of thousands.
• 1:13:58
  Speaker 1: Yeah, which like is fair if you're talking about just
• 1:14:00
  Speaker 1: the armies of the top elite leaders gathering into place
• 1:14:04
  Speaker 1: and then going back to their armies that add up
• 1:14:06
  Speaker 1: to the millions across the continent. But it's a little
• 1:14:10
  Speaker 1: fuzzier than that.
• 1:14:12
  Speaker 2: One of the things that I've heard a lot and
• 1:14:14
  Speaker 2: I haven't verified for myself is that like there are
• 1:14:17
  Speaker 2: a lot of armies that are left out of the
• 1:14:19
  Speaker 2: last battle that we do see, Like there's a much
• 1:14:21
  Speaker 2: smaller troop count than you would expect, a much smaller
• 1:14:25
  Speaker 2: channeler count than you would expect in the last battle,
• 1:14:28
  Speaker 2: just because it's just so hard to write about all
• 1:14:29
  Speaker 2: those people. But I would I would like to see,
• 1:14:32
  Speaker 2: I need to before we get to the last battle.
• 1:14:34
  Speaker 2: I'd see like a breakdown. I wonder if there's like
• 1:14:37
  Speaker 2: all the groups that are missing or limited or smaller
• 1:14:41
  Speaker 2: in the last battle than we expect.
• 1:14:43
  Speaker 1: Man, that would be an interesting question to kind of
• 1:14:46
  Speaker 1: examine as we go into that. And then yeah, we
• 1:14:48
  Speaker 1: get our first reveal that Parent is going to be
• 1:14:51
  Speaker 1: on rand side when it comes to breaking the seals
• 1:14:53
  Speaker 1: or not.
• 1:14:54
  Speaker 2: And does the obvious and most you know, level headed
• 1:15:00
  Speaker 2: explanation of why you have to break them. Right, It
• 1:15:02
  Speaker 2: seems right to me that you need to break the seals.
• 1:15:04
  Speaker 2: It's like making a sword. You usually don't want to
• 1:15:06
  Speaker 2: forge one out of the pieces of a broken and
• 1:15:08
  Speaker 2: ruined weapon. You get good new steal to make it
• 1:15:11
  Speaker 2: rather than patch the old seals. He'll need to make
• 1:15:14
  Speaker 2: new ones. I think he doesn't even make new seals.
• 1:15:16
  Speaker 2: He re forges, you know, the prison itself.
• 1:15:19
  Speaker 1: Sure, yeah, And I was kind of surprised that Elaine
• 1:15:22
  Speaker 1: doesn't have a similar thought, given that she's been tinkering
• 1:15:24
  Speaker 1: so much with the construction of Taran Gurie All. Surely
• 1:15:26
  Speaker 1: she would know that there's like a point at which
• 1:15:29
  Speaker 1: the project has to be shoved into the reject bin
• 1:15:32
  Speaker 1: and just start it over. But whatever, only his friend
• 1:15:36
  Speaker 1: Paren gets it, And I do like.
• 1:15:39
  Speaker 2: The way they come to it, where it's like, let's
• 1:15:40
  Speaker 2: not start the last battle by shattering the seals and
• 1:15:43
  Speaker 2: letting the dark one out. Let's actually like plan when
• 1:15:46
  Speaker 2: we want to shatter them strategically, Like I do think
• 1:15:49
  Speaker 2: that's an important idea to come out of the meeting
• 1:15:51
  Speaker 2: between Rand and the women.
• 1:15:53
  Speaker 1: Oh for sure.
• 1:15:54
  Speaker 2: And then it turns out that it doesn't matter because
• 1:15:55
  Speaker 2: they don't even have them in the first place. Like
• 1:15:58
  Speaker 2: all this debate about like Rand's going to shut out
• 1:15:59
  Speaker 2: the he doesn't even have them.
• 1:16:02
  Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, it comes down to Logain managing to reacquire
• 1:16:06
  Speaker 1: them in the last moment, like it. Yeah, so yeah,
• 1:16:08
  Speaker 1: then Parent kind of talks about how this is a
• 1:16:11
  Speaker 1: tinder box of armies all coming together and if they
• 1:16:14
  Speaker 1: do decide to, you know, factionalize over the seal thing,
• 1:16:17
  Speaker 1: that's going to be a problem.
• 1:16:18
  Speaker 2: You've got Barrelane and Glade sort of amping up their relationship.
• 1:16:22
  Speaker 2: Their two armies just constantly end up together.
• 1:16:25
  Speaker 1: Yeah, it's not on purpose, but somehow it's working out,
• 1:16:28
  Speaker 1: and it's like Parent's happy to just let them take
• 1:16:30
  Speaker 1: care of each other totally.
• 1:16:32
  Speaker 2: We have this line that like the White Cloaks have
• 1:16:34
  Speaker 2: been what is it, basically obeying orders since the trial.
• 1:16:38
  Speaker 2: They've been good since the trial, and it's like, Okay,
• 1:16:41
  Speaker 2: we're never going to have to worry about them again.
• 1:16:42
  Speaker 2: They're just always going to obey orders, They're always going
• 1:16:44
  Speaker 2: to be good.
• 1:16:45
  Speaker 1: Yeah, surprisingly little trouble, the opposite of what they've been
• 1:16:48
  Speaker 1: the entire rest of the series.
• 1:16:52
  Speaker 2: Like they have fallen into line, we never have to
• 1:16:54
  Speaker 2: worry about them again.
• 1:16:55
  Speaker 1: And he thinks about how the whole army just feels
• 1:16:58
  Speaker 1: better with him not being a bitch about leadership. How
• 1:17:01
  Speaker 1: do people know that when they can't smell emotions? Maybe
• 1:17:03
  Speaker 1: because your face does not have an indoor voice, apparent
• 1:17:07
  Speaker 1: the line I got from a content creator online.
• 1:17:10
  Speaker 2: He's also a terrible EmPATH. He only like because he
• 1:17:14
  Speaker 2: senses emotions, but the like only through his special ability,
• 1:17:18
  Speaker 2: not through like actually reading people, right.
• 1:17:20
  Speaker 1: And it's like, I'm pretty sure that it's really obvious
• 1:17:23
  Speaker 1: to most people that you have changed your relationship to leadership.
• 1:17:26
  Speaker 1: It comes across in your body language and your word
• 1:17:29
  Speaker 1: choice and the fact that you show up to meetings
• 1:17:31
  Speaker 1: without being dragged there by your hair by your wife.
• 1:17:34
  Speaker 1: You now little things, little thanks. Yeah, he thinks about
• 1:17:38
  Speaker 1: grabbing more people from the two rivers and how much
• 1:17:41
  Speaker 1: of a bummer that is.
• 1:17:42
  Speaker 2: But it is what it is, and that's what we're
• 1:17:45
  Speaker 2: seeing from everybody is like, Okay, last minute recruit everybody, like,
• 1:17:48
  Speaker 2: let's grab That's also why the numbers don't necessarily make
• 1:17:50
  Speaker 2: sense because we're finally we're basically in a conscription model
• 1:17:55
  Speaker 2: where basically everybody's getting snatched up and recruited, and so
• 1:18:00
  Speaker 2: you should have numbers equivalent to a.
• 1:18:01
  Speaker 1: World war, right, even more world war than the world wars. Yeah,
• 1:18:08
  Speaker 1: and then the last thing that we've got is, uh,
• 1:18:11
  Speaker 1: the two rivers brow sphere is healing.
• 1:18:16
  Speaker 2: Yeah, that the Fayel's strategy with Berylane has shown them
• 1:18:22
  Speaker 2: to be wrong, and that they realized, oh, I was
• 1:18:25
  Speaker 2: wrong all along. I made bad assumptions, despite the fact
• 1:18:28
  Speaker 2: that like they're not actually being friends. They assume that
• 1:18:32
  Speaker 2: if the cheating happened, the two could never be fake,
• 1:18:35
  Speaker 2: even faking the friendship as much as they are, And
• 1:18:37
  Speaker 2: so they apologize to parent for assuming he was a
• 1:18:39
  Speaker 2: cheating bastard.
• 1:18:40
  Speaker 1: They apologize to parent for being the reason why those
• 1:18:43
  Speaker 1: rumors wouldn't fucking die. They're the ones that just kept
• 1:18:47
  Speaker 1: passing it around and kept making it a thing, even
• 1:18:50
  Speaker 1: though parent didn't want it to be a thing and
• 1:18:51
  Speaker 1: no one needed for it to be a thing. These
• 1:18:53
  Speaker 1: guys are the ones making it a thing, and now
• 1:18:55
  Speaker 1: they're apologizing for it, and I'm like, okay, I mean,
• 1:18:58
  Speaker 1: the best apology has changed behavior, but behavior has changed.
• 1:19:00
  Speaker 1: So I guess finishing it up with a verbal acknowledgment
• 1:19:03
  Speaker 1: that you fucked up is fine. I guess again, it's
• 1:19:06
  Speaker 1: a little standerson putting it out on the page, like I
• 1:19:09
  Speaker 1: thought we'd already resolved that, But whatever. I guess it's
• 1:19:12
  Speaker 1: good to see what an apology looks like.
• 1:19:14
  Speaker 2: Mm hmmmm. Yeah, everyone stopped believing it for a while.
• 1:19:18
  Speaker 2: I don't I don't don't think we even needed this
• 1:19:21
  Speaker 2: whole apology scene. Didn't didn't feel necessary.
• 1:19:37
  Speaker 1: And with that we can transition to our last POV
• 1:19:41
  Speaker 1: of the chapter, which initiates the Tower of Genji sequence.
• 1:19:46
  Speaker 2: The Tower of Genji. So this the end of this
• 1:19:48
  Speaker 2: chapter and then the next two chapters or the Tower
• 1:19:51
  Speaker 2: of Genji and this is, yeah, basically getting inside of
• 1:19:54
  Speaker 2: it is the end of this scene.
• 1:19:55
  Speaker 1: Yeah yeah, getting into it and sort of acquainting Nol
• 1:19:59
  Speaker 1: and Tom with the basic rules of the game and
• 1:20:03
  Speaker 1: getting Matt to realize that, oh he's leveled up, and
• 1:20:06
  Speaker 1: so the difficulty of the world has also leveled up,
• 1:20:10
  Speaker 1: you know.
• 1:20:12
  Speaker 2: But yeah, this is exciting. So they gateway in and
• 1:20:15
  Speaker 2: you kind of see the column. Noel shows up with
• 1:20:18
  Speaker 2: his staff. Where does he gets like this old staff
• 1:20:22
  Speaker 2: that he's kept around It's like he's had it for
• 1:20:23
  Speaker 2: years and years, but like did he pull it out
• 1:20:25
  Speaker 2: of his ass?
• 1:20:26
  Speaker 1: Like is his backpack of tartists? Like what are we doing?
• 1:20:30
  Speaker 2: Yeah? Like how did he did he find this somewhere?
• 1:20:32
  Speaker 2: Did he have it stashed somewhere that that always feels
• 1:20:34
  Speaker 2: like a little duce smockina there where he's just like.
• 1:20:38
  Speaker 1: And it doesn't do anything. He just has it for
• 1:20:40
  Speaker 1: a while and then throws it aside at one point
• 1:20:42
  Speaker 1: during the you know, frantic retreat, like it serves a purpose,
• 1:20:46
  Speaker 1: but it's so mysterious, like he just has like good
• 1:20:49
  Speaker 1: walking sticks just stashed around the continent in case he
• 1:20:52
  Speaker 1: has to do hero shit in the neighborhood. Like what's
• 1:20:54
  Speaker 1: going on?
• 1:20:55
  Speaker 2: And then what's with he's got this weird coat too,
• 1:20:57
  Speaker 2: that's like, oh, from his travels, it probably means something.
• 1:21:00
  Speaker 2: It's probably a great honor to wear it or something
• 1:21:01
  Speaker 2: like that. I can't, I can't. I don't know what
• 1:21:03
  Speaker 2: the coat could mean, it's this long, split coat.
• 1:21:06
  Speaker 1: He feels so much like he's just out of time.
• 1:21:09
  Speaker 1: He feels like a time traveler. But yeah, I assume
• 1:21:11
  Speaker 1: it's some sort of ceremonial Malchierre coat that, for some reason,
• 1:21:15
  Speaker 1: despite all of his travels, he's managed to never lose
• 1:21:18
  Speaker 1: this one possession despite being a hobo for the past
• 1:21:22
  Speaker 1: like forty years or whatever. He just he feels like
• 1:21:25
  Speaker 1: a time traveler. He feels so much more like a
• 1:21:27
  Speaker 1: time traveler than a man who just got lost for
• 1:21:29
  Speaker 1: a few years, being you know, taken over by the devil.
• 1:21:32
  Speaker 2: Yeah, because you think of the death of Malkierre as
• 1:21:35
  Speaker 2: being something that happened a long time ago, not like
• 1:21:37
  Speaker 2: thirty twenty five years, you know.
• 1:21:40
  Speaker 1: I you know, Land's experience, you know, proves the point
• 1:21:43
  Speaker 1: of you know, it wasn't that long ago. But Noel
• 1:21:46
  Speaker 1: just feels distant. But yeah, I assume it's a Malchiary
• 1:21:50
  Speaker 1: coat that he's.
• 1:21:50
  Speaker 2: Worrying sort of because he was this great hero of
• 1:21:53
  Speaker 2: Malkierre forty years.
• 1:21:55
  Speaker 1: Ago, yeah, or whenever it was, Yeah, whatever it was.
• 1:21:57
  Speaker 2: Because yeah, the fall of Malkiere was when Land was
• 1:22:00
  Speaker 2: boy and Lands about in his forties, right, so we.
• 1:22:02
  Speaker 1: Land was like a babe, a baby, right, right, right,
• 1:22:04
  Speaker 1: It was like an infant, whereas Jane Farrestrider was an
• 1:22:09
  Speaker 1: adult who was mixed up in the politics of what
• 1:22:11
  Speaker 1: went down to bring about the fallow map kre.
• 1:22:13
  Speaker 2: Right, I think right, one would assume in his twenties
• 1:22:16
  Speaker 2: or so, so one will put him in his you know,
• 1:22:18
  Speaker 2: late sixties, early seventies.
• 1:22:20
  Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, and yeah, Tom went with his gleaman's clothing
• 1:22:23
  Speaker 1: because that was how he met Moraine in book one,
• 1:22:27
  Speaker 1: although you know, we've concluded that they must have met
• 1:22:30
  Speaker 1: before that, but clearly that's the impression he wants to
• 1:22:33
  Speaker 1: be returning to.
• 1:22:34
  Speaker 2: Even going back and the every reading and just how
• 1:22:36
  Speaker 2: much he was he was a court barred no, Like
• 1:22:40
  Speaker 2: when he introduces himself, he's like, I'm a court bard
• 1:22:42
  Speaker 2: known across multiple courts, and she was high up in
• 1:22:46
  Speaker 2: the carry on in court. Like there's just no way
• 1:22:48
  Speaker 2: they didn't at least know about each other.
• 1:22:50
  Speaker 1: So yeah, it feels like what I should wear if
• 1:22:51
  Speaker 1: I'm going to see her. Feels like a callback to
• 1:22:53
  Speaker 1: book one, which is sweet, but it's also like it's
• 1:22:56
  Speaker 1: not the first time. I guess it's the first time
• 1:22:58
  Speaker 1: they flirted.
• 1:22:59
  Speaker 2: Yeah, and I would say the first time they met.
• 1:23:01
  Speaker 2: They may have known of each other, they may have
• 1:23:03
  Speaker 2: seen each other, but that doesn't mean they'd met before.
• 1:23:05
  Speaker 1: Sure, fair enough. Also, it's the time that they, you know,
• 1:23:09
  Speaker 1: started this insane adventure together. And then yeah, Matt goes
• 1:23:13
  Speaker 1: like full two rivers woodsman ranger, earthy tones with his
• 1:23:19
  Speaker 1: hat and his scarf. It's just this is the picture
• 1:23:22
  Speaker 1: on the front of the book, right, this is them. Well,
• 1:23:25
  Speaker 1: I mean we get to that in a moment, but
• 1:23:27
  Speaker 1: you know, it's just Matt's all rogie. He's all dressed
• 1:23:31
  Speaker 1: like a woodsman rogue.
• 1:23:33
  Speaker 2: I thought it was an interesting line. Does the tower
• 1:23:35
  Speaker 2: reflect too much light that some of that light is
• 1:23:38
  Speaker 2: coming from inside? Or yeah, it's that weird otherly world
• 1:23:42
  Speaker 2: version of the tower GANGI it was really cool, and
• 1:23:45
  Speaker 2: I like the coming back around to them seeing it
• 1:23:48
  Speaker 2: on the boat in eye of the World. This is
• 1:23:50
  Speaker 2: a really cool way to like bring that full circle
• 1:23:52
  Speaker 2: and bring that reference around. I feel like we spent
• 1:23:57
  Speaker 2: a little too long on like Matt, oh was the
• 1:24:00
  Speaker 2: Tower of Genjai when like everybody else in the world
• 1:24:02
  Speaker 2: knows the Tower of Genji, Like, why was that a
• 1:24:06
  Speaker 2: prophecy that he would be able to figure it out
• 1:24:08
  Speaker 2: when it's like, well, Paren knows where it is, Bale
• 1:24:10
  Speaker 2: Domon knows where it is. Anyone who's ever sailed up
• 1:24:14
  Speaker 2: and down that river knows where it is. It's like
• 1:24:15
  Speaker 2: a pretty big landmark on that river that everyone can see.
• 1:24:20
  Speaker 1: Yeah, but then we get to the moment that is
• 1:24:24
  Speaker 1: the cover of the art, the Daryl ka Sweet art
• 1:24:27
  Speaker 1: where Tom draws a triangle with a wavy line through
• 1:24:32
  Speaker 1: it with a bronze knife on the side of this unnerving,
• 1:24:35
  Speaker 1: unearthly silver tower while Noel looks uncomfortably over his shoulder
• 1:24:39
  Speaker 1: and Matt you know, fiddles with his staff. It's just there.
• 1:24:43
  Speaker 1: It is.
• 1:24:43
  Speaker 2: There's a mom from the cover, huge payoff for the
• 1:24:46
  Speaker 2: Games of Snakes and Foxes that has been introduced, you know,
• 1:24:49
  Speaker 2: so long ago in this series, and it's had that
• 1:24:52
  Speaker 2: opening symbol was drawn ages and ages ago. I swear
• 1:24:56
  Speaker 2: to of got the whole point of Oliver is just
• 1:24:58
  Speaker 2: introduced us to this symbol and to open up this door,
• 1:25:01
  Speaker 2: Like that's why he exists as a character.
• 1:25:03
  Speaker 1: Yeah, It's like a quarter of the reason why Brita
• 1:25:05
  Speaker 1: exists is to give the info about how to get
• 1:25:08
  Speaker 1: in and how to deal with the trickery.
• 1:25:11
  Speaker 2: No, it's it's so many things had to happen to
• 1:25:14
  Speaker 2: lead up to the rescue of Moraine. That's why I
• 1:25:16
  Speaker 2: think her influence at the end should have been a
• 1:25:18
  Speaker 2: little more significant. But yeah, because so much had to
• 1:25:22
  Speaker 2: happen for this.
• 1:25:24
  Speaker 1: Yeah, and I love the little moment of anti climax
• 1:25:26
  Speaker 1: where they draw the symbol on the thing and then
• 1:25:29
  Speaker 1: a palm sized little hole opens up and they're like, oh,
• 1:25:33
  Speaker 1: we gotta, we gotta. The triangle literally has to be
• 1:25:36
  Speaker 1: big enough to be the door we walked through. It's
• 1:25:39
  Speaker 1: a really funny little like.
• 1:25:40
  Speaker 2: Oh, can you squeeze through that? Nope, Okay, draw bigger.
• 1:25:45
  Speaker 1: It's such a big, momentous moment. And then yeah, it's
• 1:25:50
  Speaker 1: really funny.
• 1:25:51
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 1:25:52
  Speaker 1: And then yeah, we get the invocation, and so we
• 1:25:55
  Speaker 1: begin the game that cannot be won. Courage to strengthen,
• 1:25:58
  Speaker 1: Fire to blind, muse to dazzle, Iron to bind, and
• 1:26:01
  Speaker 1: matrim cottin to bloody even the odds.
• 1:26:05
  Speaker 2: What a great way to start that. Do you think
• 1:26:07
  Speaker 2: there's any significance to the fact that it takes seven
• 1:26:09
  Speaker 2: heartbeats for the doorway to open seven seconds seven.
• 1:26:14
  Speaker 1: Yeah, some sort of. It takes a minute for the
• 1:26:16
  Speaker 1: connection to come through, and why would it not be
• 1:26:18
  Speaker 1: some sort of like metaphysically magical interval of cosmic seconds.
• 1:26:22
  Speaker 1: I don't think there's anything too significant, just has to
• 1:26:25
  Speaker 1: take some amount of time. Instance seems too Fastuh.
• 1:26:28
  Speaker 2: The only thing I'll make that equivalent of is with
• 1:26:31
  Speaker 2: Sanderson in Stormlight Archive when they summon their shard blades.
• 1:26:34
  Speaker 2: It takes ten heart beats, and it's interesting that he
• 1:26:37
  Speaker 2: measures in heart beats for some mystical appearance to happen.
• 1:26:42
  Speaker 2: Seven verses ten. I don't know. I don't know if
• 1:26:44
  Speaker 2: this is related, but.
• 1:26:46
  Speaker 1: Seven ages on the turning of the wheel of time.
• 1:26:48
  Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, seven and thirteen are both very
• 1:26:52
  Speaker 2: significant numbers in wheel of time.
• 1:26:53
  Speaker 1: So yeah, so yeah, they hop on through.
• 1:26:59
  Speaker 2: And we're in a third place, which I this sort
• 1:27:02
  Speaker 2: of tells us a little bit about to me the
• 1:27:05
  Speaker 2: function of the snakes in the foxes right, because he
• 1:27:08
  Speaker 2: describes all three here, which is actually really really nice.
• 1:27:12
  Speaker 2: This was not like the first place he had visited,
• 1:27:14
  Speaker 2: with its twisting coils and circular doorways, so you have
• 1:27:17
  Speaker 2: something that represents roundness and twisting. Nor was it like
• 1:27:21
  Speaker 2: the second one, which with its star shaped rooms and
• 1:27:24
  Speaker 2: lines of yellow light radio lines. Right, So that's the
• 1:27:28
  Speaker 2: spider web. That the web of the playing board that
• 1:27:31
  Speaker 2: you play on when you play Snakes and Foxes, Right,
• 1:27:33
  Speaker 2: they're they're radio lines that go out or the circular ones,
• 1:27:36
  Speaker 2: and the snakes live in the radio lines and the
• 1:27:39
  Speaker 2: foxes live in this or vice versa, whichever.
• 1:27:42
  Speaker 1: One is which. Yeah, I would assume the snakes are
• 1:27:45
  Speaker 1: in the curvy place and the foxes are in the
• 1:27:47
  Speaker 1: pointy place, because pointy.
• 1:27:50
  Speaker 2: Yes, that would be correct. Yes, because he visited the
• 1:27:53
  Speaker 2: snakes first. And yes, so the snakes are in the
• 1:27:55
  Speaker 2: curvy place, that makes sense. The foxes are in the
• 1:27:57
  Speaker 2: pointing place, but those were That web is supported by
• 1:28:00
  Speaker 2: a trio of towers.
• 1:28:03
  Speaker 1: Sure like a spider web. Is guy wired off of
• 1:28:06
  Speaker 1: a couple of points.
• 1:28:07
  Speaker 2: Yeah, exactly, And so he's inside the tower that's supporting
• 1:28:11
  Speaker 2: the spider web. That's what the Tower of Genjai is.
• 1:28:14
  Speaker 2: It's one of those towers that the spider web is
• 1:28:18
  Speaker 2: strung between.
• 1:28:19
  Speaker 1: So does that mean that there's two other towers in
• 1:28:22
  Speaker 1: his world or is each of the towers like in
• 1:28:25
  Speaker 1: a different dimension for where it plugs in.
• 1:28:29
  Speaker 2: That's a really good question. I would bet that there's
• 1:28:31
  Speaker 2: three other towers of Genjai, like another this is probably
• 1:28:34
  Speaker 2: one in sean Chan. There's probably one in Shara.
• 1:28:37
  Speaker 1: Or one of the land of mad Men or something.
• 1:28:40
  Speaker 2: Or what yeah, something like that, right, Like, there's there's
• 1:28:42
  Speaker 2: three three towers in the world, or they could be
• 1:28:45
  Speaker 2: in other worlds, right, Like, I don't know that for sure,
• 1:28:48
  Speaker 2: but yeah, I don't see tell one until I run Riod,
• 1:28:52
  Speaker 2: but then one that No.
• 1:28:54
  Speaker 1: No, that doesn't make sense to me. Tell e Rounriot
• 1:28:56
  Speaker 1: is too universal.
• 1:28:57
  Speaker 2: Yeah, because there is one until run riots, there are
• 1:29:00
  Speaker 2: of the one in the real world. Yeah, right, So.
• 1:29:03
  Speaker 1: But yeah, I like the idea of there're being three
• 1:29:04
  Speaker 1: in this world that are just geographically scared. Maybe one's
• 1:29:07
  Speaker 1: even like in the ocean because of you know, the
• 1:29:09
  Speaker 1: breaking like right.
• 1:29:10
  Speaker 2: That no one can ever get to, right, Yeah.
• 1:29:12
  Speaker 1: But I don't like the idea of there're only being
• 1:29:14
  Speaker 1: one in the world. If there's three in the reality
• 1:29:18
  Speaker 1: of the Eofin and elephants world Finland, and.
• 1:29:22
  Speaker 2: That makes sense that you've got, well, you have like
• 1:29:24
  Speaker 2: three ways in You've got the red doorway, the two
• 1:29:26
  Speaker 2: red doorways, and then the tower. So maybe somehow the
• 1:29:29
  Speaker 2: doorways are linked to those two towers.
• 1:29:32
  Speaker 1: No, because we see the melted doorway inside.
• 1:29:36
  Speaker 2: The other space right right, right, But maybe that's like
• 1:29:39
  Speaker 2: the tip of the of the tower, like that's where
• 1:29:41
  Speaker 2: the you know, that's where the connecting point between the
• 1:29:43
  Speaker 2: tower and the web is.
• 1:29:45
  Speaker 1: Sure, yeah, yeah, totally maybe.
• 1:29:48
  Speaker 2: But it shows you that these are all one world,
• 1:29:50
  Speaker 2: like you're just seeing slightly different aspects of it and
• 1:29:52
  Speaker 2: slightly different physical versions of it. That is, you know,
• 1:29:56
  Speaker 2: the world of the snakes in the world of the foxes,
• 1:29:58
  Speaker 2: in a lot of ways are purp and killer to
• 1:30:00
  Speaker 2: each other. They exist in the same reality, but in
• 1:30:02
  Speaker 2: a lot of ways don't interact except at these points
• 1:30:05
  Speaker 2: where they do intersect.
• 1:30:06
  Speaker 1: Yeah, and that's why they are not always in alignment
• 1:30:10
  Speaker 1: or in conflict.
• 1:30:11
  Speaker 2: And if you think think of as polar coordinates, right,
• 1:30:13
  Speaker 2: you have radius, you have degree, but then you also
• 1:30:16
  Speaker 2: have height, and sort of radius is the foxes, degree
• 1:30:21
  Speaker 2: is the snakes, and height is the tower of Genji.
• 1:30:24
  Speaker 1: Yeah, totally. So, Yeah, they pull out some fire. They
• 1:30:27
  Speaker 1: start with the easiest thing to mess with. They do
• 1:30:30
  Speaker 1: a little experimentation with the doorway, getting in and out.
• 1:30:32
  Speaker 1: That doesn't mean anything later, but you see them trying
• 1:30:35
  Speaker 1: to be cautious. You see them being really careful, and
• 1:30:38
  Speaker 1: you know that that care falls away as things get
• 1:30:41
  Speaker 1: more desperate over the course of this sequence.
• 1:30:44
  Speaker 2: And being able to draw an exit is also how
• 1:30:47
  Speaker 2: he gets out. He just uses ashendari instead of Yeah,
• 1:30:50
  Speaker 2: but that symbol is still the doorway that he uses
• 1:30:52
  Speaker 2: to carve. You know, he uses aschendariis to carve the
• 1:30:55
  Speaker 2: symbol of the doorway to get out when he does
• 1:30:57
  Speaker 2: get out. Yeah.
• 1:30:58
  Speaker 1: You know, they're so many hints in this part about
• 1:31:02
  Speaker 1: how they're going to get out, about how to get out,
• 1:31:04
  Speaker 1: how to get out, Here's how you get out. Here
• 1:31:06
  Speaker 1: is how you get out, and then we have to
• 1:31:08
  Speaker 1: lose nol before Matt figures it out. It sucks.
• 1:31:11
  Speaker 2: Yeah, he even says, Oh, they gave me a way out,
• 1:31:14
  Speaker 2: but he couldn't figure out what it was, and then
• 1:31:15
  Speaker 2: they left me hanging from the ashendari. It's like he's
• 1:31:18
  Speaker 2: he literally says like, yeah, I'm actually this is one
• 1:31:24
  Speaker 2: of the more impressive feats for me because I actually
• 1:31:27
  Speaker 2: got tricked all of this reading all the study. When
• 1:31:31
  Speaker 2: I read that the ashindari was the key to get
• 1:31:33
  Speaker 2: out for the first time, that blew me away. That
• 1:31:36
  Speaker 2: was a effective twist. I did not see coming, and
• 1:31:39
  Speaker 2: yet was perfectly and incredibly obvious based on the rereads
• 1:31:43
  Speaker 2: and based on the phrasing of what he was given
• 1:31:45
  Speaker 2: and the fact that he was given a way out
• 1:31:47
  Speaker 2: and like he was hung from the Ashindarai and you're like, well,
• 1:31:50
  Speaker 2: they get they ejected him, that was his way out,
• 1:31:53
  Speaker 2: and it's like, no, they ejected him, so he wouldn't
• 1:31:55
  Speaker 2: figure out that the Ashindarai was the key to getting out.
• 1:31:58
  Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, No. I also never guessed until it happened.
• 1:32:02
  Speaker 1: And now every time I read it, I'm mad that
• 1:32:04
  Speaker 1: Noel had.
• 1:32:04
  Speaker 2: To die for that, Yeah, because it's so obvious.
• 1:32:07
  Speaker 1: It's like I'm mad that Camelin had to die or
• 1:32:10
  Speaker 1: had to get hurt so badly for Matt's pride. I'm
• 1:32:13
  Speaker 1: really mad that Matt's obtuseness meant that Noel died. But
• 1:32:16
  Speaker 1: I also was gotten in a way that I was
• 1:32:18
  Speaker 1: not with the Cameelin thing.
• 1:32:19
  Speaker 2: So there's that right, right, the white steam pushing away
• 1:32:23
  Speaker 2: from the flames. Do we ever figure out isn't the white
• 1:32:25
  Speaker 2: steam like some level of like soul capture something. I
• 1:32:29
  Speaker 2: seem to remember we have had a whole discussion about that.
• 1:32:31
  Speaker 2: The first time he went in because it seems like
• 1:32:33
  Speaker 2: when you cut the fox and the snakes' is they
• 1:32:37
  Speaker 2: bleed the white steam? Do they fairly certain?
• 1:32:40
  Speaker 1: I forget? Oh yeah, they talk about I just flipped
• 1:32:44
  Speaker 1: ahead their eyes and narrow and ecstasy as they fed
• 1:32:46
  Speaker 1: on something rising from that, an almost invisible vapor of
• 1:32:49
  Speaker 1: red and white. So yeah, maybe the vapor is the
• 1:32:52
  Speaker 1: savor that they have collected over all this time.
• 1:32:55
  Speaker 2: Mm hmm. Yeah, I'd have to go go read that
• 1:32:57
  Speaker 2: chapter again.
• 1:32:58
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I'm trying to like skim through it really fast,
• 1:33:01
  Speaker 1: and it's not. But I like the idea that the
• 1:33:04
  Speaker 1: steam is more than just hydrothermal events, that there's something
• 1:33:07
  Speaker 1: about the nature of what the fin do that is
• 1:33:10
  Speaker 1: related to that, because the steam like bends around the
• 1:33:13
  Speaker 1: fire in unnatural ways, Like, it's clearly related to the
• 1:33:17
  Speaker 1: unnatural nature of this place.
• 1:33:19
  Speaker 2: So in the next chapter, he shivered as he saw
• 1:33:22
  Speaker 2: the eel fin's blood on the ground beginning to steam
• 1:33:24
  Speaker 2: white steam as in the other chambers, but this had
• 1:33:27
  Speaker 2: shapes in it. They look like twisting faces, appearing briefly
• 1:33:30
  Speaker 2: and yelling before vanishing.
• 1:33:32
  Speaker 1: Oh there it is, so there it.
• 1:33:34
  Speaker 2: Is some crazy white steams coming off their their blood,
• 1:33:37
  Speaker 2: but it has faces from their absorbing what they absorbed
• 1:33:40
  Speaker 2: from him, Like, yeah, they the way they feed on
• 1:33:43
  Speaker 2: the memories and the way the steam represents the memories,
• 1:33:47
  Speaker 2: but it's somehow also like pouring through these chambers, it's
• 1:33:51
  Speaker 2: like electric It's like having electricity running through the edges, right,
• 1:33:54
  Speaker 2: like it seems like they power the whole world with it. Yeah,
• 1:33:57
  Speaker 2: but cursed.
• 1:33:59
  Speaker 1: So yeah, they their way through the hallways, trying to
• 1:34:01
  Speaker 1: find their way to somewhere. Recognizes they're being very twitchy.
• 1:34:06
  Speaker 1: They have a strong feeling of being watched. And then
• 1:34:10
  Speaker 1: Noel tries to be all boy scout about it and says,
• 1:34:12
  Speaker 1: I can make a map, and they do the mapping thing,
• 1:34:15
  Speaker 1: and then Matt says, but these guys are the thin
• 1:34:18
  Speaker 1: So they use the map to go back to where
• 1:34:20
  Speaker 1: they work, and it doesn't work because the boy scout
• 1:34:22
  Speaker 1: rules do not work here, and Noel is really perplexed
• 1:34:27
  Speaker 1: by that, and then Matt says, no, no, no, no, no, we
• 1:34:29
  Speaker 1: got to be gambling.
• 1:34:30
  Speaker 2: Men right about this. I have to use my luck.
• 1:34:32
  Speaker 1: And Noel tries to bring logic to it. He says,
• 1:34:35
  Speaker 1: but what about the odds? And Tom says let him cook,
• 1:34:38
  Speaker 1: and then sure enough, Matt is able to take use
• 1:34:41
  Speaker 1: the dice to figure out that the true path is
• 1:34:43
  Speaker 1: back and forth and back and forth and back and forth,
• 1:34:45
  Speaker 1: because no one would ever do that, right, right, Because
• 1:34:48
  Speaker 1: this is one of my favorite, favorite favorite lines of
• 1:34:52
  Speaker 1: this entire sequence is wait, the rules have to make sense. No, no, no,
• 1:34:57
  Speaker 1: they have to be consistent. That is the core feature
• 1:35:01
  Speaker 1: of a rule set m, because it's consistent. And so
• 1:35:05
  Speaker 1: they made it so that way you can definitely get
• 1:35:07
  Speaker 1: to the room you want to go to if you
• 1:35:09
  Speaker 1: consistently go back and forth like seven times, which who
• 1:35:12
  Speaker 1: would ever do that? That's insane, That is insanity doing
• 1:35:15
  Speaker 1: the same thing over and over again expecting a different result. Right.
• 1:35:19
  Speaker 2: Well, and wait, later we learn they're even just messing
• 1:35:22
  Speaker 2: with the choices, right, because that makes it look like
• 1:35:25
  Speaker 2: you have four choices in every room or whatever how
• 1:35:27
  Speaker 2: many choices, but you actually have infinite choices because the
• 1:35:30
  Speaker 2: corridors aren't real. You can actually go in any direction.
• 1:35:33
  Speaker 2: And that's where like, yes, when he switches from his
• 1:35:36
  Speaker 2: dice to spinning, like they're taking in the dice away
• 1:35:38
  Speaker 2: actually helps him because then he can spin and turn
• 1:35:40
  Speaker 2: in any direction and go through any the way I
• 1:35:44
  Speaker 2: think about it is the snakes in the Foxes don't
• 1:35:46
  Speaker 2: live in a Cartesian coordinate plane, right, and so they
• 1:35:50
  Speaker 2: you have to map their world onto some sort of
• 1:35:54
  Speaker 2: fractal or folding geometry or nonlinear space time, right. And
• 1:35:59
  Speaker 2: so if you draw a map on a flat plane,
• 1:36:02
  Speaker 2: you're assuming a Cartesian coordinates it's never going.
• 1:36:05
  Speaker 1: To work, right, absolutely, And Matt doesn't have to know
• 1:36:09
  Speaker 1: what rules they're using. He just has to know how
• 1:36:11
  Speaker 1: to consistently follow the correct path, which he.
• 1:36:14
  Speaker 2: Has luck exactly in the same way that he can
• 1:36:17
  Speaker 2: sit down at a game he doesn't know how to
• 1:36:18
  Speaker 2: play and still win it. Yeah, because he's lucky enough
• 1:36:21
  Speaker 2: to roll the right dice. So he doesn't have to
• 1:36:24
  Speaker 2: know his path. He just has to be lucky enough
• 1:36:26
  Speaker 2: to roll to point in the right direction. Right.
• 1:36:29
  Speaker 1: Absolutely.
• 1:36:30
  Speaker 2: And so a guy shows up one of the bargain
• 1:36:33
  Speaker 2: with them.
• 1:36:34
  Speaker 1: And we do get a brief mention of Brigido's story
• 1:36:36
  Speaker 1: having made it out.
• 1:36:37
  Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, it doesn't.
• 1:36:38
  Speaker 1: Really matter, but it did make it out fun flavor text.
• 1:36:42
  Speaker 2: You always wonder how it made it out. Right. One
• 1:36:44
  Speaker 2: assumes that like some magically asked, like what happened to
• 1:36:47
  Speaker 2: Brigido when she went in Yeah.
• 1:36:48
  Speaker 1: And I must have asked. But yeahs as they're talking
• 1:36:51
  Speaker 1: about that, a guide shows up being like that you
• 1:36:55
  Speaker 1: broke the rules.
• 1:36:56
  Speaker 2: And this is a fox.
• 1:36:57
  Speaker 1: Yeah, this guy shows up saying you have no bargain,
• 1:37:00
  Speaker 1: you have no protection, and you have brought prohibited items.
• 1:37:04
  Speaker 1: So this is different than last time.
• 1:37:06
  Speaker 2: Now, Yeah, and he's trying. He tries to put the
• 1:37:10
  Speaker 2: whammy on him, right, He uses his voice to try.
• 1:37:12
  Speaker 1: And just to charm them.
• 1:37:13
  Speaker 2: Charm them, Yeah, that's the right term.
• 1:37:15
  Speaker 1: He tries to get them to leave their fire, just
• 1:37:17
  Speaker 1: the fire, just the fire. And then Matt recognizing that
• 1:37:21
  Speaker 1: the charm effect is started to work, is like Tom
• 1:37:23
  Speaker 1: start hitting some music, start making music.
• 1:37:26
  Speaker 2: So he reaches down and breaks his own finger.
• 1:37:28
  Speaker 1: No no, no, no, no, different book, different.
• 1:37:30
  Speaker 2: Different book, Okay, sorry, but yeah, so he he uses
• 1:37:35
  Speaker 2: the music, right, because that's the that breaks the rhythm
• 1:37:38
  Speaker 2: of whatever hypnotic voice they were using.
• 1:37:42
  Speaker 1: Yeah, it changes the rhythm. It puts off their cadence.
• 1:37:45
  Speaker 2: It's like if you have two beats, you end up
• 1:37:47
  Speaker 2: with a third wah wah wah right beat. Yeah, and
• 1:37:50
  Speaker 2: that wah wah wahws is breaking the effect of the charm.
• 1:37:53
  Speaker 1: Yeah. Basically Matt manages to keep that going. Oh, Tom
• 1:37:59
  Speaker 1: manages to put the thing to sleep, right, The thing
• 1:38:01
  Speaker 1: literally gets runa reversed on the charm basically and goes
• 1:38:06
  Speaker 1: to sleep. And then Noel says, wow, Matt, you're command
• 1:38:08
  Speaker 1: of the old tongue slaps. Matt's like, goddamn it, not
• 1:38:11
  Speaker 1: a king. But I guess maybe it's a good time
• 1:38:14
  Speaker 1: for that to happen, since the old tongue is how
• 1:38:16
  Speaker 1: they communicate, and.
• 1:38:17
  Speaker 2: That's what we saw last time, right, that was the
• 1:38:18
  Speaker 2: whole thing, like Matt talking. And then he comes back
• 1:38:21
  Speaker 2: out and RAN's like, oh, did they have to grab
• 1:38:23
  Speaker 2: a translator for you? And He's like, no, they were
• 1:38:27
  Speaker 2: talking in common. He's like, no, they were talking old tongue.
• 1:38:30
  Speaker 2: So we know they're talking old tongue the whole time.
• 1:38:32
  Speaker 1: Yeah, and Nol knows enough to catch the gist of
• 1:38:35
  Speaker 1: what's being said. But like Matt is, you know, accent
• 1:38:38
  Speaker 1: and idiom perfect to quote Brigida.
• 1:38:40
  Speaker 2: Yeah, and I think Noel is better at it than
• 1:38:42
  Speaker 2: he says, right, because he was his Malkire noble, who
• 1:38:45
  Speaker 2: I'm sure was well educated.
• 1:38:47
  Speaker 1: Right, But Matt speaks in variations from like many different
• 1:38:51
  Speaker 1: times in places so probably his understanding is oscillating by regionality.
• 1:38:55
  Speaker 2: Oh yeah, Matt, Matt is a native speaker in all
• 1:38:58
  Speaker 2: intensive purposes, whereas I think of Noel as being well educated,
• 1:39:03
  Speaker 2: and I assume Tom also speaks a fair amount of
• 1:39:06
  Speaker 2: old Tom.
• 1:39:06
  Speaker 1: Yeah, they probably speak a comparable amount and are both
• 1:39:09
  Speaker 1: looking at Matt like damn dude.
• 1:39:11
  Speaker 2: Right, these are two people who took it in college
• 1:39:14
  Speaker 2: looking at a native speaker. Yeah. Who but as far
• 1:39:17
  Speaker 2: as they know what, had never been to the country.
• 1:39:19
  Speaker 1: Yeah, a native speaker who can speak in every regional
• 1:39:22
  Speaker 1: dialect even though he has ostensibly never left his hometown before. Right, right,
• 1:39:29
  Speaker 1: And then yeah, he gets reflecting. We get to reflect
• 1:39:32
  Speaker 1: on all he got given from them before, including the
• 1:39:35
  Speaker 1: ashen Darai Ashendarai Ashandarai.
• 1:39:37
  Speaker 2: His memory filled a way to be free of the
• 1:39:39
  Speaker 2: ice at eye and away out of the tower. They
• 1:39:42
  Speaker 2: had given it to him, but he could not remember
• 1:39:43
  Speaker 2: what it was. Everything had gone black and he had
• 1:39:45
  Speaker 2: wakened hanging from the ashen Daraye. Right, Matt had asked
• 1:39:49
  Speaker 2: for a way out, and so he says he doesn't
• 1:39:51
  Speaker 2: know what it was. He blacked out and then was
• 1:39:53
  Speaker 2: hanging from the Ashendarai so it's like it's so blatant
• 1:39:56
  Speaker 2: right there that the ashen Darai is the way out. Yeah,
• 1:39:59
  Speaker 2: I'm still amazed that he pointed it out this clearly.
• 1:40:02
  Speaker 2: And I don't even know if I saw very many
• 1:40:04
  Speaker 2: fans notice it ahead of time, Like I don't think
• 1:40:06
  Speaker 2: I saw a fan theory anywhere.
• 1:40:08
  Speaker 1: I've never heard anyone say it was obvious. I mean,
• 1:40:10
  Speaker 1: I don't know what Ali has gotten to. Maybe Ally's
• 1:40:13
  Speaker 1: predicted it.
• 1:40:13
  Speaker 2: But uh, but in hindsight it feels obvious.
• 1:40:16
  Speaker 1: Yeah, oh, I just realized then the dice thing doesn't
• 1:40:18
  Speaker 1: happen until now, before the guide showed up, when they
• 1:40:21
  Speaker 1: were still wandering the hallways. Now is when they do
• 1:40:23
  Speaker 1: the dice thing. But all my points from before stand
• 1:40:26
  Speaker 1: now that they're on their own figuring it out.
• 1:40:28
  Speaker 2: Noel being like you can't roll one in him immediately
• 1:40:30
  Speaker 2: rolling a.
• 1:40:31
  Speaker 1: One instantly, and then Tom's like, look, you can too,
• 1:40:34
  Speaker 1: roll a one.
• 1:40:34
  Speaker 2: Yeah. And this is where they don't have to be consistent.
• 1:40:36
  Speaker 2: They have to follow logic.
• 1:40:37
  Speaker 1: They don't have to follow our logic, or that's the
• 1:40:39
  Speaker 1: thing you're saying about, you know, non Euclidean space, non Cartesian space,
• 1:40:43
  Speaker 1: Like there is a logic it isn't intuitive or even
• 1:40:46
  Speaker 1: graspable by you, because flatland is a thing. If you
• 1:40:51
  Speaker 1: can find some kind of proxy that will consistently give
• 1:40:53
  Speaker 1: you a read on the situation, like dice, like spinning,
• 1:40:57
  Speaker 1: you can still follow consistent logic. And I mean they're
• 1:41:00
  Speaker 1: doing this for a long time. Nol is convinced that
• 1:41:02
  Speaker 1: they're going to just die, running back and forth between
• 1:41:04
  Speaker 1: two rooms. You know, I understand Nole's frustration. And then
• 1:41:08
  Speaker 1: they burst into the edges of the room where it's
• 1:41:13
  Speaker 1: all going to go down.
• 1:41:14
  Speaker 2: This is the room where you make bargains, right, This
• 1:41:17
  Speaker 2: is the chamber of bond chamber bonds, Yeah, where they
• 1:41:20
  Speaker 2: you can actually be bonded and make deals and everything
• 1:41:23
  Speaker 2: like that. And so that sort of is the introduction
• 1:41:26
  Speaker 2: they've they've gotten into the trap, right, Yes, the fox
• 1:41:29
  Speaker 2: and the Fox and ravens Jesus Fox and Raven Fox,
• 1:41:34
  Speaker 2: the fox and snakes is snakes foxes and have lured
• 1:41:40
  Speaker 2: them in, right. So they are now in the depth
• 1:41:42
  Speaker 2: of the trap with no bargain, no protection, just their wits,
• 1:41:45
  Speaker 2: Matt's luck and the cheating. Yeah.
• 1:41:48
  Speaker 1: Yeah, the steaks are quite high. They are gleaming. The
• 1:41:51
  Speaker 1: trap is about ready to snap shut, and Matt says,
• 1:41:55
  Speaker 1: all right, we're almost there, let's keep going, and with
• 1:41:58
  Speaker 1: that the chapter ends done. Done.
• 1:42:02
  Speaker 2: I gotta wonder how many people have gone in all
• 1:42:05
  Speaker 2: three ways, both gateways and the Tower of Genji. Is
• 1:42:09
  Speaker 2: Matt the only one who's entered.
• 1:42:11
  Speaker 1: You got to be a special kind of stupid to
• 1:42:13
  Speaker 1: keep going back, So he's probably not the first. But
• 1:42:18
  Speaker 1: also I wouldn't be surprised if he's descended or if
• 1:42:21
  Speaker 1: he is the soul of the other people who have
• 1:42:24
  Speaker 1: done this in other times. Maybe only one person ever
• 1:42:27
  Speaker 1: does this and it's Matt in it life after life.
• 1:42:30
  Speaker 1: But yeah, going in all three ways, like you got
• 1:42:32
  Speaker 1: to be a special kind of not having a sense
• 1:42:35
  Speaker 1: of self preservation for that.
• 1:42:36
  Speaker 2: And then yeah, it's just a lot of threes, right,
• 1:42:38
  Speaker 2: You've got, you know, three ways to enter, the three towers,
• 1:42:42
  Speaker 2: the three people going in.
• 1:42:44
  Speaker 1: The three ways of cheating, the.
• 1:42:45
  Speaker 2: Three ways of cheating. Yeah, this is very much like
• 1:42:48
  Speaker 2: the rule of threes, which you've seen a lot of
• 1:42:51
  Speaker 2: fantasy and a lot of like, especially with the fairy folk,
• 1:42:53
  Speaker 2: and like the rules of three is super important.
• 1:42:55
  Speaker 1: Oh yeah, no, three is a sacred number, going back
• 1:42:57
  Speaker 1: to like real magic and mythology from pre history times
• 1:43:01
  Speaker 1: like three has always been a very powerful number. So yeah,
• 1:43:06
  Speaker 1: with that, I think we can close out the recording
• 1:43:08
  Speaker 1: that we made on the ninth anniversary of the first
• 1:43:11
  Speaker 1: published episode of the podcast. Thank you everyone so much
• 1:43:15
  Speaker 1: for being here. Those there. I know there are some
• 1:43:17
  Speaker 1: of you who have been here since the beginning. I
• 1:43:20
  Speaker 1: was telling my mom about this earlier and she asked,
• 1:43:22
  Speaker 1: is there anyone who's still around since the very very beginning,
• 1:43:25
  Speaker 1: And I'm like, well, I joined within the first year,
• 1:43:29
  Speaker 1: and I know there's some other people who joined around
• 1:43:32
  Speaker 1: when I did who are still around. So yeah, there's
• 1:43:35
  Speaker 1: definitely a small corp of people who have just never
• 1:43:38
  Speaker 1: left or people who have left to come back. Thank
• 1:43:41
  Speaker 1: you everyone who has done that for all of these years.
• 1:43:44
  Speaker 1: It's bonkers.
• 1:43:45
  Speaker 2: Yeah, everyone's want to hear from someone who's like, oh, yeah,
• 1:43:47
  Speaker 2: you said this on the latest episode and I'm like,
• 1:43:48
  Speaker 2: oh my god, you're still listening. That's amazing. Thank you.
• 1:43:51
  Speaker 1: Yeah, so one more year of this ridiculous journey. Thank
• 1:43:56
  Speaker 1: you all for being here and continuing to be engaged,
• 1:43:59
  Speaker 1: and yeah, well see you next week. Thank you for
• 1:44:36
  Speaker 1: listening to the Wheel of Time Spoilers podcast. Please rate
• 1:44:39
  Speaker 1: and review us on your podcast app, and consider supporting
• 1:44:42
  Speaker 1: us on Patreon for ad free episodes. Watts Spoilers is
• 1:44:46
  Speaker 1: a production of Fox and Raven Media. For more podcasts
• 1:44:50
  Speaker 1: from Fox and Draven Media, visit our website at Foxendravenmedia
• 1:44:53
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