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When Family Ties Break · Divas That Care Network

• 0:00
  SPEAKER_00: It's Divas the Care Radio.
• 0:02
  SPEAKER_00: Stories, strategies, and ideas to inspire positive change.
• 0:06
  SPEAKER_00: Welcome to Divas That Care, a network of women committed to making our world a better place for everyone.
• 0:13
  SPEAKER_00: This is a global movement for women, by women engaged in a collaborative effort to create a better world for future generations.
• 0:20
  SPEAKER_00: To find out more about the movement, visit divasletcare.com after the show.
• 0:26
  SPEAKER_00: Right now, though, stay tuned for another jolt of inspiration.
• 0:31
  SPEAKER_02: Welcome to Confidence in Bloom, where we have honest conversations about confidence, identity, authenticity, relationships, and finding our way back to ourselves.
• 0:41
  SPEAKER_02: I'm Tina Spolotini, and I'm so glad you're here.
• 0:45
  SPEAKER_02: Today I'm really happy to welcome back someone who has been here before, Mary Prince.
• 0:51
  SPEAKER_02: I'm so happy we're having this conversation because when we talked in March, there were things in that conversation that really stayed with me.
• 0:59
  SPEAKER_02: Mary brings a thoughtful perspective to the way we understand ourselves, our relationships, and the patterns that shape how we show up and with the people we love.
• 1:09
  SPEAKER_02: Today we're talking about something that can be incredibly painful and complicated: estranged relationships between parents and their adult children.
• 1:18
  SPEAKER_02: I know this may not seem like a bit of a departure from some of our, or this may feel like a huge departure from some of our usual conversations.
• 1:28
  SPEAKER_02: But our theme on confidence in Bloom right now is collaboration over competition.
• 1:33
  SPEAKER_02: And the more I thought about this conversation, the more I realized that these two things actually have a lot in common.
• 1:40
  SPEAKER_02: When relationships become difficult or disconnected, it can be very easy to move into a kind of competition, trying to prove that we're right, prove that we're good, we're a good parent or a good child, or prove that we've done enough, or we're trying to convince the other person to see things the way we do.
• 2:01
  SPEAKER_02: Sometimes that competition isn't even with the other person.
• 2:05
  SPEAKER_02: We can be fighting with ourselves, questioning our choices, second guessing what we should have done differently, or feeling it like it's our responsibility to somehow fix the relationship.
• 2:15
  SPEAKER_02: Collaboration asks us to approach things differently.
• 2:18
  SPEAKER_02: It invites us, it invites curiosity instead of judgment, and it makes room for another person to experience without requiring us to abandon our own.
• 2:30
  SPEAKER_02: And perhaps most importantly, it asks us to work with ourselves rather than constantly fighting against what we're feeling or experiencing.
• 2:38
  SPEAKER_02: Welcome, Mary.
• 2:40
  SPEAKER_02: Thank you.
• 2:41
  SPEAKER_02: It's wonderful to be here.
• 2:43
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, thank you.
• 2:44
  SPEAKER_02: I'm so excited for today's conversation.
• 2:46
  SPEAKER_02: Now, I mean, I know it's gonna be, you know, sensitive.
• 2:49
  SPEAKER_02: It's definitely gonna, you know, hit some nerves and some, you know, some sensitivities.
• 2:53
  SPEAKER_02: But at the same time, I also believe that you will guide us through some, you know, some territory where we all need to at some point go to to handle like just to learn about ourselves and how we can, you know, um navigate in relationships that are estranged or maybe have been or could be, right?
• 3:17
  SPEAKER_02: We've we I'm I'm assuming everyone has relationships that are like this.
• 3:22
  SPEAKER_02: We all have difficult people in our lives.
• 3:24
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, and when I say difficult people, I don't mean that as a label.
• 3:28
  SPEAKER_02: I mean that as in a like I have difficulty, you know, working with you in in one way or another, right?
• 3:35
  SPEAKER_02: Like the way your brain works, the way my brain works, they they they're conflicting, right?
• 3:41
  SPEAKER_02: And it's not about you, and it's you know, it's not about me.
• 3:44
  SPEAKER_02: It's more about how we can manage to do this.
• 3:47
  SPEAKER_02: Get let's get to the same place at the same time.
• 3:50
  SPEAKER_02: So we talked about um, you know, something that in our last conversation and you know, even earlier today, before we hit the record button.
• 4:00
  SPEAKER_02: What is the experience activating in us really?
• 4:04
  SPEAKER_02: Like, I really think that this is a place that we should start.
• 4:08
  SPEAKER_02: What is it?
• 4:09
  SPEAKER_02: Like, what's happening when we are conflicted with another person where we want to like kind of forget about them for a minute?
• 4:20
  SPEAKER_02: Or a year.
• 4:23
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, absolutely.
• 4:24
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, you know, and for some, you know, there's so much uncertainty about, you know, the the the length of time, right?
• 4:32
  SPEAKER_01: You know, and each is uniquely different.
• 4:35
  SPEAKER_01: And so, you know, um, great question, but what is activated within us?
• 4:41
  SPEAKER_01: And so, and and that I think is a great question because we always want to look at what is happening to me?
• 4:54
  SPEAKER_01: How am I responding in something that I can't control?
• 4:58
  SPEAKER_01: Right?
• 4:59
  SPEAKER_01: Because estrangement doesn't just happen between two people, right?
• 5:04
  SPEAKER_01: There's something that happens inside of us, right?
• 5:07
  SPEAKER_01: It affects what does it affect our identity, our belonging, our self-worth, our responsibility.
• 5:14
  SPEAKER_01: And even for a parent, I would say it affects our understanding of who we thought we were.
• 5:25
  SPEAKER_01: Oh my goodness.
• 5:27
  SPEAKER_01: And so, and it activates questions in me about failing.
• 5:31
  SPEAKER_01: You know, should I be doing more?
• 5:33
  SPEAKER_01: Should I be fixing something?
• 5:35
  SPEAKER_01: And what does it mean that someone I loved and loved dearly is distant from me?
• 5:44
  SPEAKER_01: What meaning do I give that?
• 5:46
  SPEAKER_01: And so the circumstances are going to be different for every person, for every woman listening, right?
• 5:51
  SPEAKER_01: But the question, like you said, is you know, what what's being activated within me?
• 5:56
  SPEAKER_01: And I think we need to really do some introspection and and because all of us have experienced some type of disconnection, because it's not only estrangement, you know, it's where a spouse can withdraw, or they give you the silent treatment, or a sibling stops speaking to you, or a friend becomes distant, or you know, maybe an adult child sets a boundary, or a colleague excludes us, you know, and these all happen externally, but something is activated in us internally, right?
• 6:33
  SPEAKER_01: And so I'm really interested in helping people understand themselves, understanding what's going on in me in that middle of that, in the middle of that disconnection, right?
• 6:43
  SPEAKER_01: You know, not just the other person, but what's going on in me.
• 6:46
  SPEAKER_01: And so, you know, but I think, you know, and before we even continue on, I think we really need to address uh grief, right?
• 6:57
  SPEAKER_01: Because we need to acknowledge the grief.
• 7:00
  SPEAKER_01: Grief is is a huge part of this, right?
• 7:03
  SPEAKER_01: And when someone you love is, you know, absent from your life or disconnected, and you miss those everyday conversations and family celebrations, or really what you miss is the future you imagine together.
• 7:18
  SPEAKER_01: And there's lots of uncertainty, right?
• 7:21
  SPEAKER_01: And we need to recognize that that grief deserves some attention and care.
• 7:26
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 7:27
  SPEAKER_02: So especially like when you're talking about a relationship that you've had with a family member, because now every family function, like holidays, you know, weddings, you know, special occasions, you might be present in the same room, but you're not really present.
• 7:47
  SPEAKER_02: And the the other people in the room are missing out because you're not just not talking to that person, you're also not engaging.
• 7:54
  SPEAKER_02: You're not, you're you're not gonna be the same as you were if you were, you know, in in a well, what I don't know what the word is.
• 8:03
  SPEAKER_02: Like if your relationship is strong and you're happy and everything with everybody in the room, you're a lot more present than if you're not, right?
• 8:10
  SPEAKER_01: And so, yeah, you're a lot more freer, you're not guarded.
• 8:15
  SPEAKER_01: And when you are guarded, there is tension, right?
• 8:19
  SPEAKER_01: Whether you're experiencing it or not, you're creating tension or you're experiencing tension, right?
• 8:25
  SPEAKER_01: And so that is, you know, what's going on in the atmosphere, and other people can feel it, you know.
• 8:33
  SPEAKER_01: We think it's invisible, but it truly does manifest itself, and so we need to be aware of that, very cognizant of that, because it affects, like you say, the interactions, it affects because you're not fully being yourself, you're not being your authentic self, right?
• 8:49
  SPEAKER_01: You're and so and that will affect, yeah, all the conversations.
• 8:54
  SPEAKER_01: It will affect even just your presence, your your very your physical being.
• 9:00
  SPEAKER_01: And so, yeah, so um what I really like to look at is that you know, what meaning am I giving to the disconnection?
• 9:14
  SPEAKER_01: I think that is a really important question, is that because you know, because it's going to activate things in us, it could activate rejection, it could activate fear of loss, that you know, that whole heavy emotion of that grief, right?
• 9:30
  SPEAKER_01: And also it can activate loneliness, despair, and hopelessness, and you know, anger and control and all sorts of things will will show up.
• 9:42
  SPEAKER_01: And we're like, oh my goodness, that's not who I am.
• 9:46
  SPEAKER_01: But these things just they show up, and but because we are activated, right?
• 9:52
  SPEAKER_01: You know, we're triggered, and um but the way we are triggered really surfaces based on the meaning we are giving that disconnection.
• 10:05
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, right, right, because we're meaning-making human beings, right?
• 10:10
  SPEAKER_02: We make meaning out of everything, right?
• 10:13
  SPEAKER_02: Right, right, right.
• 10:14
  SPEAKER_02: And somehow that's how it starts, right?
• 10:17
  SPEAKER_02: Like somehow, like you know, you say something or you do something, and you know, you're you're I've I okay.
• 10:22
  SPEAKER_02: That's the last, that's my last straw, right?
• 10:25
  SPEAKER_02: Like, I can't take it anymore, right?
• 10:27
  SPEAKER_02: And so if that anything similar to that situation is going to trigger you even more.
• 10:35
  SPEAKER_02: Oh my goodness, yeah.
• 10:36
  SPEAKER_01: And we create a story around it, right?
• 10:40
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, and then and the more we tell ourselves the story, whether it's actually factual or really happening or perceived, you know, whether it's real or perceived, it's still a story.
• 10:55
  SPEAKER_01: And the more we tell ourselves about it, the more we ruminate about it and and recycle it in our heads and just go over it and you know, think about it when we go to bed and think about it when we're going out and I don't know, at mealtimes, wherever, you know, throwing it.
• 11:10
  SPEAKER_02: It's always in your face.
• 11:11
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, it's always in your face because you're it's on the top of your mind.
• 11:14
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, that's right, you know, because it hurts.
• 11:18
  SPEAKER_01: It hurts.
• 11:19
  SPEAKER_01: There is actual pain.
• 11:20
  SPEAKER_01: Then the more we hear the story, then the more real it becomes, and then the more activated we get, right?
• 11:28
  SPEAKER_01: So really, distance can become.
• 11:31
  SPEAKER_01: I failed, and we have to decide does this define my entire history as a mother?
• 11:38
  SPEAKER_01: Right?
• 11:38
  SPEAKER_01: You know, and some people are just completely devastated and you know, just they they feel totally gutted, you know, like yeah, like how I move forward from this.
• 11:52
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, like okay, so one thing I I would so if if this were in my case, like if it were one of my children, I would be like, the purpose I had was to raise these children now that they're no longer children, or he or she is no longer a child and is an adult in the real world, he wants nothing to do with me.
• 12:12
  SPEAKER_02: Like that, like I think I would be like, Well, I can't go forward, I can't go anywhere, right?
• 12:17
  SPEAKER_02: Because not only have I fulfilled my purpose, I failed at it.
• 12:22
  SPEAKER_02: Right?
• 12:23
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and that's that hopelessness.
• 12:26
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, hopelessness, despair.
• 12:28
  SPEAKER_01: And it's like, and you know, if I were to give a few other examples, you know, like, you know, and silence, you know, when we get, you know, this silent treatment, you know, you know, we walk into a room and people hush or you know, someone's not talking to us, then you know, yeah, that could trigger or activate rejection.
• 12:46
  SPEAKER_01: You know, does this define my worth?
• 12:48
  SPEAKER_01: You know, or a boundary becomes I'm not wanted.
• 12:52
  SPEAKER_01: And, you know, and if we think about, oh my gosh, what would be the worst thing about if I'm not wanted?
• 12:58
  SPEAKER_01: You know, I I could be alone, I could be abandoned, and like, you know, what is that gonna look like in years to come, right?
• 13:06
  SPEAKER_01: And then not knowing this uncertainty if or when, you know, reconciliation or restoration will happen, I need to do something.
• 13:15
  SPEAKER_01: I I better fix this, or I'm gonna lose it forever because you know, it activates that control, right?
• 13:22
  SPEAKER_01: So it's really the story, what we built around it, the meaning.
• 13:26
  SPEAKER_01: I focus really on the meaning, right?
• 13:28
  SPEAKER_01: You know, because we hear story kind of, you know, it's kind of thrown out there a fair bit, right?
• 13:33
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, but um course the meaning that you um are speaking of is the meaning that your client in this case, so like you know, usually the the mother is putting behind it, not the actual meaning, because we're we're two different people, right?
• 13:49
  SPEAKER_02: And so, you know, if it's the son against the mother that are estranged, the son is most likely gonna have a different story that he tells himself than the mother has that she's telling herself, but you're only dealing with the mother and her story that has to be super difficult because she doesn't have a clue what is really going on in the son's mind.
• 14:14
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, but you know what?
• 14:15
  SPEAKER_01: That that that is really almost to a certain extent, it's not important when I'm working with someone.
• 14:26
  SPEAKER_01: What is important is the meaning they are giving it, because that is something that they have been trained in.
• 14:34
  SPEAKER_01: That is something that has evolved in their life, and if we can address this, and I'm gonna move on to the next thing that I think this is going to be this this is gonna be a game changer for people, okay?
• 14:49
  SPEAKER_01: Is we so we need to pay attention to what is this behavior?
• 14:56
  SPEAKER_01: So what's been activated in us, whether it's anger control, or fear, whatever it might be, you know, rejection, hopelessness, is what is that behavior protecting?
• 15:08
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, so this is where I get really curious, and if I can help someone overturn this, goodness, do you know what?
• 15:17
  SPEAKER_01: It changes not only that relationship, it changes a multitude of relationships in their lives.
• 15:25
  SPEAKER_01: This is a really important thing.
• 15:28
  SPEAKER_02: Okay, so now you have me really curious.
• 15:31
  SPEAKER_02: So, like, I mean, I know that we're gonna go deep here, but okay, so what we're protecting You know me, yeah.
• 15:38
  SPEAKER_02: So when we when we're protecting, you're talking about what okay, so if it's like mother and son, you're talking about what the mother is protecting and what the son is protecting, and they're most likely different.
• 15:52
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, so really, if we think about it, you know, in a family, no child is born into the same family.
• 16:02
  SPEAKER_01: Because so this is why parents are saying, why is this child different than this one, then this one, and this one, right?
• 16:07
  SPEAKER_01: Is that because the parents are different?
• 16:09
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, the parents are evolving, they're changing, you know.
• 16:12
  SPEAKER_01: By the time you get to the the second, third, fourth child, you know, you're far more relaxed and you're a different parent.
• 16:18
  SPEAKER_01: It's a and the family dynamics are quite different, right?
• 16:21
  SPEAKER_01: Than the first.
• 16:22
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 16:23
  SPEAKER_01: And so, and so now, so what um, but what I'm focusing on now really is I'm curious about the behaviors.
• 16:33
  SPEAKER_01: And rather than judging them, I don't judge them, I get curious about them.
• 16:39
  SPEAKER_01: So when I'm talking to a parent, okay, or you know, even a grandparent, or you know, even someone on the other, on the, you know, who is the one, you know, cutting off the relationship, you know, you know, but really mostly the parents, right?
• 16:54
  SPEAKER_01: Why do I keep calling?
• 16:57
  SPEAKER_01: You know, now I'm gonna stop calling, or maybe I want to advise or fix or or overexplain or withdraw, or I'm I just want to keep the peace, right?
• 17:07
  SPEAKER_01: You know, but really, or taking responsibility for everybody.
• 17:11
  SPEAKER_01: Lots of them will do that, right?
• 17:13
  SPEAKER_01: But rather than ask yourself, why can't I stop doing this?
• 17:18
  SPEAKER_01: We want to look at now, okay, what is it protecting?
• 17:21
  SPEAKER_01: So let me give you some examples.
• 17:23
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, so if I want to fix the relationship, that means I'm gonna call them, I'm gonna pursue them, I'm going to give them gifts, I'm gonna give them money, I'm going to invite them for meals, I'm going to do whatever I can, you know, and do things with the kids or whatever.
• 17:41
  SPEAKER_01: So that could protect me from helplessness.
• 17:45
  SPEAKER_01: Maybe over-explaining, you know, like I want them to understand my side, right?
• 17:50
  SPEAKER_01: Like that I really do care, that I sincerely love them, you know, that they are so important to me that I will do anything for them, right?
• 17:58
  SPEAKER_01: That over-explaining can protect being misunderstood.
• 18:03
  SPEAKER_01: Or reaching out, right?
• 18:05
  SPEAKER_01: You know, you're extending your reach, right?
• 18:08
  SPEAKER_01: Like, you know, that could protect you from fear of losing the relationship.
• 18:13
  SPEAKER_01: And then withdrawing, there are some parents that withdraw, right?
• 18:16
  SPEAKER_01: You know, you're gonna cut me off, you know.
• 18:18
  SPEAKER_01: This is what I'm going to do, then you know, I'll just withdraw, you know, and maybe that's protecting us from being rejected again, right?
• 18:26
  SPEAKER_01: Right, right.
• 18:27
  SPEAKER_01: And keeping the peace is protecting us from conflict, right?
• 18:31
  SPEAKER_01: So people are saying, well, Mayor, I don't know what is protecting.
• 18:34
  SPEAKER_01: Like, how do I figure this out, right?
• 18:38
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, so now, so really the behavior makes perfect sense when we understand what it's protecting, right?
• 18:44
  SPEAKER_01: And people and I say to people, I say, Hey, can you tell me where this you know originated?
• 18:50
  SPEAKER_01: Where did this come from?
• 18:51
  SPEAKER_01: Can you give me another example?
• 18:52
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, yes, they've always got examples.
• 18:55
  SPEAKER_02: And I'm like, okay, yeah.
• 18:58
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 18:59
  SPEAKER_01: So now the question is, if I were to do, so let's say I'm I'm I keep explaining myself.
• 19:08
  SPEAKER_01: So now if I did the opposite, what am I afraid would happen?
• 19:13
  SPEAKER_01: If I were to do the opposite, what am I afraid would happen?
• 19:17
  unknown: Maybe.
• 19:17
  SPEAKER_02: So we say the opposite.
• 19:19
  SPEAKER_02: What like do you mean, like if I'm if I'm with the parent and I'm withdrawing and I say to myself I do the opposite, and so now I'm going to, you know, connect with with the son or the daughter, you know, sending him a phone call or a text message, or you know, start sending him, you know, memes on Facebook or something like that.
• 19:38
  SPEAKER_02: Is that what you mean if I do the opposite?
• 19:40
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 19:41
  SPEAKER_02: Okay.
• 19:42
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 19:43
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 19:43
  SPEAKER_01: And in that instance, right?
• 19:45
  SPEAKER_01: So then in that instance, you know, what could it be protecting is the fear of rejection.
• 19:51
  SPEAKER_01: I could be reaching out and I could be re-engaging and they could keep cutting me off or not respond, right?
• 19:58
  SPEAKER_01: And so that could, you know, some people could make mean the meaning they would make out of that is rejection.
• 20:04
  SPEAKER_01: But now let's say I keep explaining myself, and so then that could be protecting.
• 20:09
  SPEAKER_01: Maybe I don't want them to think badly of me.
• 20:11
  SPEAKER_01: I don't want them to, you know, or I don't want other people to think badly of me, right?
• 20:16
  SPEAKER_01: And so then what happens is this is really important, and it and it, you know, and is that I get committed to making sure they understand I'm a good mother.
• 20:28
  SPEAKER_01: So then I'm going to make them aware, oh yeah, you know, this is what I did in the past.
• 20:33
  SPEAKER_01: Um, you know what, I'm gonna cook them this great big meal.
• 20:36
  SPEAKER_01: I'm gonna offer to, you know, I'll come over and clean your house, or I'll come over and babysit, or I'll come over and, you know, whatever it might be.
• 20:43
  SPEAKER_01: You know, there's a multitude of things, right?
• 20:46
  SPEAKER_01: But I'm committed to making sure they're gonna understand that I'm a good mother.
• 20:53
  SPEAKER_01: And then the reason I'm committed to that is because I have an assumption.
• 20:58
  SPEAKER_01: And the assumption is if they see me differently than how I see myself, that means I failed as a mother.
• 21:10
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 21:11
  SPEAKER_02: Okay, so the first thing that I thought of when you said I'm gonna show them that I'm a good mother, I'm gonna go clean their house or I'm gonna cook a big meal.
• 21:20
  SPEAKER_02: My thoughts went to why would I do that?
• 21:23
  SPEAKER_02: Like they already don't believe that I'm a good mother because if they did, they would want me around.
• 21:30
  SPEAKER_02: I wouldn't now I I'm not saying that I wouldn't do all those things for them, right?
• 21:35
  SPEAKER_02: But I wouldn't do those things to bring them home, right?
• 21:38
  SPEAKER_02: Like to bring them back to the relationship.
• 21:41
  SPEAKER_02: I think, and you know, you're gonna correct me if I'm wrong, but I think I would want to do something to make them see that I see them as a human, right?
• 21:51
  SPEAKER_02: That I see them as someone who has their own thoughts and feelings and behaviors, and how can I fit into them?
• 22:01
  SPEAKER_01: So therefore, you might say, let's go for coffee.
• 22:06
  SPEAKER_02: Like a human, like a like an like a friend.
• 22:09
  SPEAKER_01: And call them and call them for a conversation or have a you know FaceTime or whatever it might be, right?
• 22:17
  SPEAKER_02: And would that be like a normal conversation?
• 22:19
  SPEAKER_02: It's not about what did I do wrong?
• 22:22
  SPEAKER_02: It's more about what's going on in your world.
• 22:25
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 22:25
  SPEAKER_02: Like let me be a part of it.
• 22:26
  SPEAKER_02: Okay.
• 22:27
  SPEAKER_01: And that's still showing that you care.
• 22:31
  SPEAKER_01: But what it's also showing is that like you, if you're reaching out and and and pursuing them, right?
• 22:39
  SPEAKER_01: There is most often an assumption underneath.
• 22:45
  SPEAKER_01: If I don't do this, right, then I could lose them forever.
• 22:53
  SPEAKER_01: You know, if I don't do this, then I'm not a caring mother.
• 22:59
  SPEAKER_01: I will be, you know, I will not see myself or I will not be seen by others as a caring mother, or by my child, more importantly, right?
• 23:08
  SPEAKER_01: And so there's lots of different assumptions, and it's all uniquely different for each individual, okay?
• 23:15
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 23:16
  SPEAKER_01: But that is the driver behind the behaviors.
• 23:20
  SPEAKER_01: And people need to see what is the driver behind their particular one.
• 23:24
  SPEAKER_01: And so I'll take them through a process.
• 23:26
  SPEAKER_01: And, you know, because we have some parents that are like, you know, they keep wanting to fix or or advise, you know, like, you know, they'll say, you know, what can I do for you?
• 23:36
  SPEAKER_01: You know, or um, you know, and sometimes it's not the child, it's the child's spouse.
• 23:45
  SPEAKER_01: Right?
• 23:45
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 23:46
  SPEAKER_02: And then you have, yeah.
• 23:48
  SPEAKER_02: Okay, so I'm I'm getting a little bit lost here.
• 23:51
  SPEAKER_02: Okay, so I understand that we're assuming that there's something else going on or that something else will happen, right?
• 23:59
  SPEAKER_02: If if we can connect, and I, you know, the mother phones the son and says, let's go for coffee, let's, you know, have a conversation.
• 24:07
  SPEAKER_02: And the conversation is um it's a normal conversation.
• 24:12
  SPEAKER_02: It's not about what did I do wrong?
• 24:14
  SPEAKER_02: What can I do better?
• 24:14
  SPEAKER_02: How can I fix this?
• 24:16
  SPEAKER_02: It's more about who are you?
• 24:18
  SPEAKER_02: How can I, you know, have a relationship with you without making you feel the way you're feeling, right?
• 24:26
  SPEAKER_02: Like, do you have that conversation with them or not?
• 24:30
  SPEAKER_01: Like goodness, if you can have that conversation, that's beautiful.
• 24:33
  SPEAKER_01: And that's a a great opportunity to to do that, right?
• 24:37
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 24:38
  SPEAKER_01: And so, um, but we have to also at the same time, if there is estrangement or disconnection, that that's gonna be difficult to arrange, right?
• 24:51
  SPEAKER_01: Most often it's not going to happen, right?
• 24:54
  SPEAKER_01: Right, especially if there's a third party involved, right?
• 24:57
  SPEAKER_01: Right, but even just them, sometimes they say, I I just need some distance right now.
• 25:02
  SPEAKER_01: I just, you know, I I want some space.
• 25:04
  SPEAKER_01: I, you know, I just want to go no contact for, you know, um.
• 25:12
  SPEAKER_02: So, you know, do you do you like back that up and say, okay, well, let me know when you're ready, or I'm gonna like I'm gonna send you another message in two months, right?
• 25:21
  SPEAKER_02: If I don't hear from you.
• 25:22
  SPEAKER_02: So is that how you handle that?
• 25:24
  SPEAKER_02: Or like I I don't know.
• 25:26
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, I'm not yeah, well, each situation is different, but I think what you know, we still want to stay grounded in ourselves and we still want to show we still want to be the loving, caring parent that we do, and just continue on as you know, as if like they're still our child.
• 25:46
  SPEAKER_01: So of course you're gonna, you know, say, hey, you know, we're having, you know, dinner on Sunday, you know.
• 25:55
  SPEAKER_01: Um I just wanted to make sure, you know, I extended the invitation to you.
• 25:59
  SPEAKER_01: You're more than welcome.
• 26:00
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I'd like to set the table for you.
• 26:02
  SPEAKER_02: Let me know that you're coming or whatever.
• 26:04
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 26:05
  SPEAKER_01: And they may not respond, right?
• 26:09
  SPEAKER_01: And and they may show up, right?
• 26:11
  SPEAKER_02: They may not respond and show up.
• 26:13
  SPEAKER_02: You don't know that unless you try, right?
• 26:15
  SPEAKER_01: Well, they, you know, likely if they're not responding, then more than likely they won't show up, right?
• 26:22
  SPEAKER_01: But there's always the, you know, the hopeful, you know, optimist who will say, well, maybe they will, you know, and you still set a place.
• 26:30
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but the most important thing is that we really want to understand the meaning that we are giving to this disconnection.
• 26:42
  SPEAKER_01: How is it impacting us, right?
• 26:45
  SPEAKER_01: You know, and and we need to come to terms with that because once we can do that, then the other individual, you know, the child, the daughter, the son, the whoever it might be, is um then they can say, okay, you know what?
• 27:06
  SPEAKER_01: Um, they're giving me my space, they're honoring this space, you know, and they're working on themselves.
• 27:11
  SPEAKER_01: I think this is a beautiful invitation for us to work on ourselves, right?
• 27:16
  SPEAKER_01: To really work on ourselves, you know, is it control, you know, but really out of a parent's heart, we're very generous towards our kids and loving and caring, and we want to embrace them, even in their weaknesses, even in their highs and their lows, and you know, all the phases of their life that they're going to experience.
• 27:38
  SPEAKER_01: And so, you know, so it's pretty natural to want to reach out, right?
• 27:47
  SPEAKER_01: But at the same time, we have to understand the meaning and why we're reaching out.
• 27:55
  SPEAKER_01: What is motivating us to reach out, right?
• 27:58
  SPEAKER_01: What's the belief?
• 28:00
  SPEAKER_01: Now, if they say yes, does it mean, oh, all of a sudden I'm a good parent?
• 28:04
  SPEAKER_01: If they say no, does it mean I've failed them?
• 28:08
  SPEAKER_01: Or does it mean that I'm being rejected?
• 28:10
  SPEAKER_01: Or does it, you know, right?
• 28:12
  SPEAKER_01: That is what I'm getting after.
• 28:14
  SPEAKER_01: Does that make sense?
• 28:16
  SPEAKER_02: Yes, it does.
• 28:17
  SPEAKER_02: One thing though, I want to ask you is you said, okay, so we we what meaning do we have behind it?
• 28:23
  SPEAKER_02: And I forget, you know, what your response was the last, you know, in the last few sentences ago.
• 28:29
  SPEAKER_02: But you said something about, you know, um coming to like my thoughts were I'm okay with this.
• 28:38
  SPEAKER_02: Like, is that what we're come like the meaning itself is one thing, but then are we coming to like I'm okay with the way the relationship is?
• 28:49
  SPEAKER_02: Like, I I don't I don't think that that's how it would work.
• 28:52
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, it wouldn't in my case, you know, for sure, because I want my kids close to me.
• 28:57
  SPEAKER_02: And I would think most mothers are like me.
• 28:59
  SPEAKER_02: I want my kids around me, right?
• 29:01
  SPEAKER_02: But you know, understanding and reflecting on the meaning that I'm putting behind the estrangement part of the relationship is one thing.
• 29:10
  SPEAKER_02: But does that mean I have to be okay with being estranged from him or her just to make things work?
• 29:19
  SPEAKER_02: Like I'm I'm a little bit lost there.
• 29:23
  SPEAKER_01: Well, the important thing to recognize here is that we can't control the other person, right?
• 29:33
  SPEAKER_01: Right, we cannot control them, we can only work on ourselves.
• 29:39
  SPEAKER_01: And so if we have the belief that our family is a cohesive unit, that our family, you know what, I if you choose that you need some time to step away or disconnect, I am going to assume that you're coming back.
• 29:58
  SPEAKER_01: I am going to assume that as a member of this family, you will be a part of this family eventually.
• 30:05
  SPEAKER_01: That is an assumption.
• 30:07
  SPEAKER_01: And what we have to come to terms with is when they're an adult, they're an adult.
• 30:13
  SPEAKER_01: And what we have to do is we have to work on ourselves to sit with those really hurtful, painful, guttural just raw emotions of what that would mean to us.
• 30:31
  SPEAKER_01: And it is incredibly painful, it is incredibly raw, it is um lonely, it is very sad and emotional, but yet we have to be willing to go there because when we do, then we can understand ourselves, and then if and when they choose to reconnect, we will be a lot freer.
• 31:03
  SPEAKER_01: We will be they will see us differently because we will be behaving differently.
• 31:11
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 31:12
  SPEAKER_01: So then we're not going to get triggered, and then we can continue on.
• 31:17
  SPEAKER_01: Remember how we initially at the beginning of our conversation, we talked about there's that tension when there is when you're being guarded.
• 31:26
  SPEAKER_01: But when you've worked on yourself and you've understand this is the meaning I was giving that, that out my my worth was tied into that.
• 31:36
  SPEAKER_01: Do you know?
• 31:37
  SPEAKER_01: I we have each and every one of us have this intrinsic worth because we're human beings, because we're living on this planet, because we're walking and breathing beautiful human beings, and our significant in our own way.
• 31:52
  SPEAKER_01: But when we attach our significant to something external, then what happens is that it triggers all sorts of things in us, fears and doubts and shame and guilt.
• 32:08
  SPEAKER_01: And so, and that will show up.
• 32:11
  SPEAKER_01: And that is what creates tension.
• 32:15
  SPEAKER_01: But when we work on ourselves and we say, okay, okay, Mary, I want to I don't I don't want to be feeling like this.
• 32:22
  SPEAKER_01: I don't I don't want to operate in this this way anymore with this faulty operating assumption.
• 32:29
  SPEAKER_01: I want to believe in my own self-worth because then do you know what?
• 32:35
  SPEAKER_01: What we focus on, we empower.
• 32:37
  SPEAKER_01: And when we focus on that, we empower others to do the exact same.
• 32:42
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 32:42
  SPEAKER_02: And then our words will tell that other, you know, that other person, our words and our actions will prove to them that it's not about the tension, right?
• 32:53
  SPEAKER_02: It's about the fact that I love you and that I want you in my life.
• 32:57
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, okay.
• 32:57
  SPEAKER_02: So now I'm thinking collaboration over competition, right?
• 33:01
  SPEAKER_02: We often think uh competition is you know something between people.
• 33:06
  SPEAKER_02: And sometimes it's almost like we're competing against ourselves, right?
• 33:11
  SPEAKER_02: Trying to prove we're right, trying to prove that we're good enough, trying to prove that we're, you know, we've done enough and somehow win that relationship back, right?
• 33:22
  SPEAKER_02: So what happens?
• 33:23
  SPEAKER_02: Like, you know, I mean, you've witnessed it.
• 33:26
  SPEAKER_02: What happens when we stop?
• 33:27
  SPEAKER_02: And we just kind of mentioned it, right?
• 33:30
  SPEAKER_02: When we stop trying to prove, and you know, we're like now we're curious about okay, so what could actually happen?
• 33:38
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, so much.
• 33:41
  SPEAKER_01: This is so exciting.
• 33:42
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, there is hope.
• 33:44
  SPEAKER_01: There is tremendous hope because when we really think about it, okay, is that when we're tying our worth and our value to this relationship outside of us, right?
• 34:00
  SPEAKER_01: Even though we've given birth to them and we, you know, you know, biologically, there is a connection.
• 34:06
  SPEAKER_01: I get that, right?
• 34:08
  SPEAKER_01: There is between a child and a mother, always.
• 34:11
  SPEAKER_01: And so, but what happens is when we free ourselves from that, right?
• 34:16
  SPEAKER_01: You know, and we work on ourselves and we're like, okay, and we overturn these things and we begin to really just be able to go inward rather than focus on our identity externally, then what happens is we actually are modeling it for the other individual.
• 34:40
  SPEAKER_01: Because when we think about when someone cuts us off, what are they doing?
• 34:47
  SPEAKER_01: They are attaching their identity to something externally.
• 34:53
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, you know what?
• 34:54
  SPEAKER_01: If I am staying connected to my parent or whoever it is, grandparent or sibling, whoever, spouse, whatever, what happens is that affects my identity.
• 35:09
  SPEAKER_01: And if we can model that our identity is we live by our own values, we live by our own intrinsic value and worth and who we are as a human being, we actually give them permission to do the same thing.
• 35:27
  SPEAKER_01: And it actually will build a bridge when we work on ourselves, and that I believe is ultimate collaboration, right?
• 35:37
  SPEAKER_01: You know, we're not trying to put it.
• 35:40
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, so you're basically saying that when we allow that to happen, when we allow them to be free to be who they are, we're actually like separating to think of the way to word this.
• 35:57
  SPEAKER_02: We're we're actually separating from the role that we believed we had to play to from the the role that we actually have to play in that person's life.
• 36:10
  SPEAKER_02: You got it, you nailed it.
• 36:12
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 36:12
  SPEAKER_02: Because yeah, because we're now we're like, you know, we're not just sisters, we're not just mother and daughter, we're not just brothers or cousins or roommates or business partners, right?
• 36:25
  SPEAKER_02: We are now, you know, this is this is who we are, and this is how we help each other grow and help each other survive and succeed.
• 36:36
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, yeah, because see, the mother is the teacher in the family, right?
• 36:40
  SPEAKER_01: The mother most most often is the teacher, right?
• 36:43
  SPEAKER_01: And so, you know, and so but dads are too, right?
• 36:47
  SPEAKER_01: But I mean, also um is that we're modeling it, we're modeling it, and so you know that, and then what it frees you up to be is to be your authentic person when you're in the same room with them and there is that disconnection.
• 37:04
  SPEAKER_01: You know what?
• 37:05
  SPEAKER_01: This is who I am.
• 37:05
  SPEAKER_01: I'm living by my values, I'm living by that I have this intrinsic worth, and I will tell you, you will show up differently.
• 37:13
  SPEAKER_01: You'll show up with your head held high, you will show up with an open heart, a generous, loving heart.
• 37:19
  SPEAKER_01: And I will tell you, people will will not just see the difference, they will feel the difference and they will experience it.
• 37:25
  SPEAKER_01: And that is where that freedom, then it just it just it begins to flow between people.
• 37:32
  SPEAKER_01: There is this, you know, this, you know, this connection between like a magnet.
• 37:37
  SPEAKER_02: Yes, like it'll track, it'll track that person back, right?
• 37:41
  SPEAKER_02: Because it'll track the person you need.
• 37:43
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, yes, because what they're seeking is they're seeking authentic connection where I am freely accepted for who I am, what I bring, and you know what?
• 37:55
  SPEAKER_01: I'm I'm not being judged, I'm not being criticized, I'm not being, you know, what whatever their perception is, right?
• 38:01
  SPEAKER_01: Whether it it's real or not, it's their perceived view, and that is real to them.
• 38:10
  SPEAKER_01: And so when we work on ourselves, we just we can open the floodgates and like, you know what, you know what, how you're showing up, you know what, you know what?
• 38:24
  SPEAKER_01: We're all imperfect, we're imperfectly perfect, you know, and so you know it is a is a beautiful thing when we work on ourselves during this process, and I believe it's a beautiful invitation for people, you know, or opportunity to be able to experience this.
• 38:45
  SPEAKER_01: And um, and it it's about growing in our capacity to to love and accept ourselves in our own weaknesses, right?
• 38:56
  SPEAKER_01: And when we give great, and when we have when we are have the ability to do that, we have grace to do it for other people.
• 39:03
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 39:04
  SPEAKER_02: And it like, okay, so honestly, I it so it seems to me that in our own self-work, like we're doing all the work, we're you know, we're learning about ourselves, but I think in the meantime, we're also sending setting like some boundaries for ourselves and for others, right?
• 39:24
  SPEAKER_02: And I mean, I think that's what it kind of comes down to, but we're also setting these boundaries with compassion, right?
• 39:31
  SPEAKER_02: Where we're we want to be genuine, right?
• 39:34
  SPEAKER_02: We want to be the real person that we are so that we can attract these, you know, this person back into our life, right?
• 39:41
  SPEAKER_02: But we also don't want to manipulate them.
• 39:43
  SPEAKER_02: We don't want to like bring them back, like, oh, I'm I'm changed, I've I've done some self-reflection.
• 39:49
  SPEAKER_02: They come back into my world, and now I'm like, ha ha, fooled you.
• 39:53
  SPEAKER_02: Now I'm back to, you know, being the idiot, the asshole that I was before you left me, right?
• 40:00
  SPEAKER_02: Like we want to actually do the work, set the boundaries, and invite them back in so that they can be our person again, or be, you know, not necessarily our person, but the person that we want them to be without making them feel like you know they have they're not good enough.
• 40:19
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 40:20
  SPEAKER_01: Or that they don't have choice, right?
• 40:22
  SPEAKER_01: And so we can leave the door open without standing in the doorway trying to pull them through it.
• 40:28
  SPEAKER_01: Right?
• 40:28
  SPEAKER_01: Right, right.
• 40:29
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 40:30
  SPEAKER_01: And so um, yeah, it's just it's an incredible thing when we can work on ourselves and um and it's it's about maturity too.
• 40:43
  SPEAKER_01: It's maturity about becoming clear what belongs to us and what doesn't, right?
• 40:51
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 40:52
  SPEAKER_02: You know, in terms of and that's part of the protecting, right?
• 40:55
  SPEAKER_02: Yes, that's part of what you said, like you said, you know, we're protecting something, and is that like that's part of it, right?
• 41:02
  SPEAKER_02: Like how do we become aware of what we were protecting, you know, without without judging ourselves, right?
• 41:09
  SPEAKER_02: Like how do we do that?
• 41:11
  SPEAKER_02: Like, how do we really come up with what it is that we are protecting when we are, you know, not um I guess when we just when we are estranged, like when we're not reaching out the way they want us to reach out, right?
• 41:27
  SPEAKER_02: How what what are we doing?
• 41:29
  SPEAKER_02: How are we becoming aware of what it is that we are protecting in ourselves?
• 41:33
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and that is that it takes time and time varies between individual to individual based on you know their levels of awareness and their ability to really be objective, see, see things objectively, right?
• 41:52
  SPEAKER_01: Because when we're in the midst of it, you know, we have to be able to, you know, stand up on a balcony and take a look down and and and really take a look.
• 42:00
  SPEAKER_01: But I think the the really the key question is really if I did the opposite, what am I afraid would happen?
• 42:09
  SPEAKER_01: So that's how we know what we're protecting.
• 42:11
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 42:12
  SPEAKER_01: That will show us.
• 42:13
  SPEAKER_01: So, you know, um, if I did the opposite, yeah, what am I afraid would happen?
• 42:19
  SPEAKER_01: And I think that that's a really key question for people to consider um in the midst of this, because there's just so much pain and anguish and uh fear, um, you know, and and yeah, just real hurt.
• 42:37
  SPEAKER_01: And um, so we need to really ask that question, right?
• 42:44
  SPEAKER_01: And um yeah, I think you know, and sometimes, you know, when we keep explaining, explaining, explaining, you know, it's not getting anywhere.
• 42:59
  SPEAKER_02: No, no, I think we can over-explain sometimes, right?
• 43:03
  SPEAKER_02: Over-apologize, over describe all of it.
• 43:07
  SPEAKER_02: We can do all of that.
• 43:08
  SPEAKER_02: There's a certain, you know, level, there's a certain boundary that we get to where you've crossed the line.
• 43:15
  SPEAKER_02: So I'm curious now, Mary, if there is someone listening today and they are estranged with someone, um, whether it's a parent or a child or somewhere, somewhere else, right?
• 43:28
  SPEAKER_02: What I mean, I you told us a lot today.
• 43:30
  SPEAKER_02: So I mean, there's a lot that we can look at.
• 43:32
  SPEAKER_02: But is there really just one thing that you would want that person to understand about themselves so that they can at least get started on that self-reflection?
• 43:45
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I think so.
• 43:46
  SPEAKER_01: I think to ask that question, you know, if I were to do the opposite, what do I fear would happen?
• 43:53
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 43:54
  SPEAKER_01: I think journal that, write it down, you know, and and you know, and and there could be a multitude.
• 44:00
  SPEAKER_01: Answers, right?
• 44:00
  SPEAKER_01: There's gonna be, you know, all sorts of things.
• 44:02
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, it's never just one thing.
• 44:04
  SPEAKER_02: If it was one thing, you wouldn't be in this position.
• 44:06
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 44:07
  SPEAKER_01: It's a loaded question, right?
• 44:08
  SPEAKER_01: Like you know, there it you know, and and um it's complex too, right?
• 44:13
  SPEAKER_01: So, you know, because there's all sorts of different threads going on, but and then that will help surface, you know, what your current responses are protecting.
• 44:22
  SPEAKER_01: And then, you know, you know, and really really think about if I were to grow in greater capacity, greater capacity to to just hold space for this person that I love so much.
• 44:43
  SPEAKER_01: If I were to just have greater capacity to hold space first for myself, right?
• 44:48
  SPEAKER_01: Let's focus on ourselves.
• 44:49
  SPEAKER_01: I I take people internally.
• 44:51
  SPEAKER_01: That is I tell you, that is um, it's so powerful because it will unlock keys to connection to other people.
• 45:03
  SPEAKER_01: And um, okay, like people are always saying, okay, that's why this is happening.
• 45:09
  SPEAKER_01: That's why, you know, this person I feel like is treating me this way.
• 45:14
  SPEAKER_01: Now we never know why, because it's only our perception, right?
• 45:18
  SPEAKER_01: And we always have the blinders on, you know, when it's our perception.
• 45:22
  SPEAKER_01: But I think, you know, if people are are experiencing this, I think, you know, whether it's estrangement or some type of disconnection, you know, I just truly want to say that the hurt is real.
• 45:34
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, right, like that distance, it feels heavy.
• 45:38
  SPEAKER_01: And I think the most important thing that you can do is that you deserve care and support while you live with this uncertainty, right?
• 45:48
  SPEAKER_02: You know, it's not about, yeah, it's not about the judgments of right or wrong, and you did this and you did that.
• 45:54
  SPEAKER_02: It's not about that.
• 45:55
  SPEAKER_02: It's more about how can we nurture this relationship back to, you know, some kind of happy place.
• 46:01
  SPEAKER_02: It may never be where it was, right?
• 46:04
  SPEAKER_02: Because it wouldn't get to it to be where it was will never it would never get you to estrangement.
• 46:09
  SPEAKER_02: Like you don't want the same relationship back.
• 46:12
  SPEAKER_02: You just want to be in a good, happy, nurturing relationship, right?
• 46:17
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 46:18
  SPEAKER_01: And we have to recognize that it going back to the same place might not happen, right?
• 46:26
  SPEAKER_01: You know, it it really might not happen, but um, you know, but we need to really look at ourselves, turn inward with compassion, understand what you're feeling, understand your own responses, you know, and move forward with with greater self-love, self-trust, um, and just recognize that we can't determine other people's choices.
• 46:52
  SPEAKER_01: We really can't.
• 46:54
  SPEAKER_01: But you do have agency over yourself, right?
• 46:58
  SPEAKER_01: And um, you know, I think honor your needs, you know, it's important what you need and to recognize that.
• 47:07
  SPEAKER_01: Um that you don't have to figure everything out, right?
• 47:13
  SPEAKER_01: And so I think just no, yeah, it's not your responsibility to figure everything out.
• 47:18
  SPEAKER_01: A lot of parents think it's my responsibility to figure this all out, to fix it, right?
• 47:24
  SPEAKER_01: Um, you know, because I'm the parent, I'm supposed to, yeah.
• 47:28
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah, and you know, we don't want to absolve ourselves from all responsibility, but if we go in inward, it will expose or surface different things feelings and meaning that we are making of this, right?
• 47:49
  SPEAKER_01: And um you know, and we need to recognize that none of us do everything perfectly.
• 47:57
  SPEAKER_01: We all make mistakes, but that's how we learn and grow.
• 48:00
  SPEAKER_01: And right we need to celebrate that because when we celebrate our own mistakes and our own things that we've done that have been imperfect, then we give permission for other people to do so.
• 48:13
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, exactly.
• 48:15
  SPEAKER_01: And I think that there is an empowerment in that, and um right, and I think um it's really important that we recognize that it's a maturing process, it really is.
• 48:35
  SPEAKER_01: It's a maturing process, you know.
• 48:37
  SPEAKER_01: It's you know, I could go a little bit deeper, but I think it just let's leave that it's a maturing process.
• 48:44
  SPEAKER_01: There is a you know a psychological component to all of this, and but I think at the same time, is that recognize you need support.
• 48:53
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, because you know isolation, um isolating yourself is it it just leads to further destruction, right?
• 49:04
  SPEAKER_02: It's not gonna solve anything, right?
• 49:06
  SPEAKER_01: You need to have someone there, you need to be in connection somewhere, you know, whether it's a group or an individual or some you deserve support along the way.
• 49:19
  SPEAKER_02: Absolutely, right?
• 49:21
  SPEAKER_01: And you can begin with, you know, one small act of kindness towards yourself, you know, just go for coffee, or you know, go to you know, a church group or a women's group, or you know, even just go to the neighbors, invite the neighbor over, you know, whatever it might be, you know, and um one small act of kindness toward yourself is a big step in this process and very important and necessary because you know it's all about connection.
• 49:56
  SPEAKER_01: We need threads of connection throughout our lives, absolutely, absolutely and um and know that um you have intrinsic worth and value for who you are, for the very person who you are, for what you bring to this earth.
• 50:22
  SPEAKER_01: There are aspects of you that no other person on this earth is is releasing on the earth, and you are carrying it, and so I think that is something that we need to to hold that we are valuable and that we have value, and that is really important for us to recognize and celebrate.
• 50:47
  SPEAKER_02: Yes, absolutely.
• 50:48
  SPEAKER_02: Oh my gosh, Mary, thank you so much for this.
• 50:51
  SPEAKER_02: This has been so awesome.
• 50:54
  SPEAKER_02: Uh, I mean, obviously, you know, we can't control another person, like you said that earlier, right?
• 51:01
  SPEAKER_02: We cannot even control the relationship that we have with them, but we can understand ourselves deeply, right?
• 51:10
  SPEAKER_02: And why we make the choices about what we do, right?
• 51:14
  SPEAKER_02: And we have that choice to make about how we show up, like who we want to be in any relationship, right?
• 51:23
  SPEAKER_02: Not just in a bad relationship, but in any relationship.
• 51:26
  SPEAKER_02: And that's what we have to remember, right?
• 51:29
  SPEAKER_02: I can only control me, right?
• 51:31
  SPEAKER_02: How I act, how I think, right?
• 51:34
  SPEAKER_02: A lot many people don't believe in that, but you know, it is true.
• 51:38
  SPEAKER_02: We do have full control over our thoughts.
• 51:41
  SPEAKER_02: So I just want to say thank you so much for joining me today.
• 51:45
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, I know that this conversation can go on further because there's so much, there's so much behind, I mean, every relationship, good and bad, but an estrangement is, I mean, we all know that it's it's not easy.
• 51:59
  SPEAKER_02: It's never the way it looks, right?
• 52:00
  SPEAKER_02: It's never the way you know it sounds.
• 52:03
  SPEAKER_02: There's always so many different layers to it.
• 52:06
  SPEAKER_02: And I think you helped us realize and understand how that all works together, right?
• 52:12
  SPEAKER_02: So thank you, thank you so much for being here today.
• 52:15
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, you're so welcome.
• 52:17
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, it it's always a joy to be with you, Tina.
• 52:20
  SPEAKER_02: Oh, thank you.
• 52:21
  SPEAKER_02: Thank you.
• 52:23
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you so much.
• 52:25
  SPEAKER_02: Okay, Mary, I have a question.
• 52:27
  SPEAKER_02: Okay, now let's say my okay, so my friend Susan, okay, she has she has this problem with her husband.
• 52:36
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 52:36
  SPEAKER_02: She is mad at him almost every day, right?
• 52:40
  SPEAKER_02: And instead of him asking her what is wrong with you, he says nothing.
• 52:46
  SPEAKER_02: He thinks she's in a bad mood, right?
• 52:49
  SPEAKER_02: And so she doesn't want to say to him this out of the blue why she's mad at him almost every day for the same reason because she doesn't want to hurt him.
• 52:58
  SPEAKER_02: What would you say to her?
• 53:00
  SPEAKER_02: Like what how do you handle that?
• 53:02
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and she probably doesn't want to tell him because she's probably thinking he's not gonna hear me, anyways.
• 53:07
  SPEAKER_01: He's just gonna tune out or whatever, and he's not gonna hear me because I told him before, and it's just it's not gonna make a difference, right?
• 53:13
  SPEAKER_01: Exactly, exactly.
• 53:14
  SPEAKER_01: But people want connection, they want you to talk, they want that connection, right?
• 53:20
  SPEAKER_01: So that's what they're craving.
• 53:22
  SPEAKER_01: So now if I'm stepping outside of that, right?
• 53:26
  SPEAKER_01: Like if I'm like if they're if we got a wall here because he's not gonna say anything, she's not gonna say anything, right?
• 53:33
  SPEAKER_01: So now if one decides to talk and say, okay, you know what, this is what I'm feeling.
• 53:39
  SPEAKER_01: You know what?
• 53:39
  SPEAKER_01: I am feeling X, Y, Z, you know, and now he could still stonewall or you know, or avoid or whatever.
• 53:49
  SPEAKER_01: But what happens is it gives him information, and now he has an opportunity to create the discussion.
• 53:56
  SPEAKER_01: Now it might escalate, right?
• 54:00
  SPEAKER_01: And that's okay, right?
• 54:01
  SPEAKER_01: It's okay.
• 54:02
  SPEAKER_01: Fighting means, you know, sometimes it can mean that you care, right?
• 54:06
  SPEAKER_01: Because you're you're fighting for that relationship, right?
• 54:08
  SPEAKER_01: And for that connection, for that communication.
• 54:12
  SPEAKER_01: So, yeah.
• 54:13
  SPEAKER_01: So what happens is she's believe she's thinking, okay, I am not gonna say anything.
• 54:19
  SPEAKER_01: So this is what's underlying her not saying anything.
• 54:22
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, this is the important part.
• 54:23
  SPEAKER_01: So now she's not saying anything because why?
• 54:27
  SPEAKER_01: Tell me, she doesn't want to hurt him.
• 54:30
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, she doesn't want to hurt him, right?
• 54:32
  SPEAKER_01: He's not gonna hear me, anyways.
• 54:34
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, yeah, not gonna listen.
• 54:37
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, he doesn't want to engage in conflict.
• 54:41
  SPEAKER_01: Conflict is scary, yeah, yeah, and he wants to avoid all of the above, yeah, yeah, and so and now he has his own assumptions going on the other side, right?
• 54:53
  SPEAKER_01: You know, if okay, she's not saying anything, you know.
• 54:56
  SPEAKER_01: I just think she's in a bad mood.
• 54:58
  SPEAKER_01: I'm not gonna ask anything because then she is just gonna fire up and she is just gonna let the fire hose go, and I'm gonna get blasted, and you know, and then I am gonna be hurt, you know, and oh man, then you know, that might affect my self-worth, and my self-worth might feel like you know, pretty mystical.
• 55:18
  SPEAKER_01: And nobody wants to be vulnerable.
• 55:20
  SPEAKER_01: Nobody wants to be vulnerable.
• 55:22
  SPEAKER_01: It's pretty scary, right?
• 55:23
  SPEAKER_01: Because I could be rejected, and you know, and who knows, you know, you know, ultimatums could be shouted, whatever, right?
• 55:31
  SPEAKER_01: All sorts of things get thrown out there, and so we have these things, these these hidden assumptions going on on both sides, right?
• 55:43
  SPEAKER_01: People aren't expressing and they're not communicating, and that creates barriers, it creates walls, it creates disconnection.
• 55:53
  SPEAKER_01: And if that continues on, then what happens is, and that also gets modeled now.
• 56:01
  SPEAKER_01: That's how a mom reacts, or how a mom responds when he's angry, that's how a dad responds when he's angry, and then it continues on, right?
• 56:12
  SPEAKER_01: But if we can start connecting, but the important thing is that when we work on ourselves, we can regulate ourselves and we can come back.
• 56:24
  SPEAKER_01: Now we might not be able to do it in the moment, but let's say we go away for a couple minutes or 10 minutes or whatever, and we come back and we re-engage in a regulated state, and we re- and we reconnect.
• 56:39
  SPEAKER_01: That's the beauty.
• 56:41
  SPEAKER_01: Although that does sound really easy.
• 56:43
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, it's not easy, it's not easy, right?
• 56:46
  SPEAKER_02: It's not easy, and that coming back, the conversation may not start, right?
• 56:51
  SPEAKER_02: It might take another 10 years before that conversation comes back, and then there's more boiling inside, right?
• 56:58
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and so we don't want to wait 10 years.
• 57:01
  SPEAKER_02: No, you know, no, so we want to bring it up again.
• 57:04
  SPEAKER_02: If if the 10 minutes goes by, you know, they are back in the same room.
• 57:09
  SPEAKER_01: How do you how does she bring it up, or does she wait for him to bring it up, or you know, whoever's ready, whoever is regulated and ready to come back has to initiate it, right?
• 57:20
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, you generally want to try and do it within 24 hours, right?
• 57:24
  SPEAKER_01: You know, that's the right because I mean then it's yeah, there's no ultimatums, but I mean, like, you know, and so you know, you just want to say, hey, you know what?
• 57:34
  SPEAKER_01: I I'm not happy with how what happened there.
• 57:37
  SPEAKER_01: You know what?
• 57:37
  SPEAKER_01: I I'm really I'm I'm hurt by what happened.
• 57:41
  SPEAKER_01: Um, you know, yeah, I was in a, you know, I was ticked off, you know, I was in an awful mood.
• 57:47
  SPEAKER_01: And uh, you know what?
• 57:49
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 57:49
  SPEAKER_01: I take responsibility for my part, you know.
• 57:52
  SPEAKER_01: And when you do that, when you take responsibility for your part, you know what?
• 57:57
  SPEAKER_01: It it they can put their guard down because they're like, okay, they're they're not dumping on me, they're not blaming me, they're not, you know, I have some responsibility here.
• 58:07
  SPEAKER_01: And they're recognizing it, they're acknowledging it, right?
• 58:10
  SPEAKER_01: I didn't show up how I wanted to.
• 58:13
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 58:13
  SPEAKER_01: And what that means then to the other person, or could mean, whatever meaning they make out of it, could be, you know what, she really does care, or he really does care.
• 58:23
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 58:23
  SPEAKER_02: It brings it all back to the the beginning.
• 58:26
  SPEAKER_02: Love that, love that.
• 58:29
  SPEAKER_02: So I think what I took away from this conversation with Mary is that estrangement isn't simply about whether someone comes back or whether a relationship gets repaired.
• 58:39
  SPEAKER_02: There is so much happening underneath it.
• 58:41
  SPEAKER_02: Our identity, our assumptions, our fears, our expectations, our need to fix things, and sometimes our belief that if we just try hard enough, we can control the outcome.
• 58:52
  SPEAKER_02: I really love the connection to collaboration over competition that came through today.
• 58:57
  SPEAKER_02: Maybe collaboration isn't always about finding agreement with another person.
• 59:01
  SPEAKER_02: Maybe sometimes it's it begins with becoming less at war with ourselves, with being curious instead of judgmental, listening instead of immediately fixing, with allowing another person to have their experience without making it mean something about our worth, with learning that we can love someone deeply without abandoning ourselves or taking responsibility for their choices.
• 59:26
  SPEAKER_02: I think that's really an important part of confidence, not having all the answers, but learning to trust ourselves enough to stay connected to who we are, even when something we desperately want is uncertain.
• 59:42
  SPEAKER_02: Thank you so much for being here today.
• 59:44
  SPEAKER_02: I would love for you to reach out to Mary.
• 59:46
  SPEAKER_02: Her contact information will be in show notes.
• 59:50
  SPEAKER_02: Um, if you want to, if you have more questions for myself, please reach out to me.
• 59:54
  SPEAKER_02: And thank you again for all being here today on Confidence in Bloom.
• 1:00:00
  SPEAKER_00: Thanks for listening.
• 1:00:01
  SPEAKER_00: This show was brought to you by Divas That Care.
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