Latest / All Figured Out with Andrea Barr: Figuring Out Work, Life and Parenting / 84. Owning the interview with Jenna Mulherin (Part 2)

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84. Owning the interview with Jenna Mulherin (Part 2) · All Figured Out with Andrea Barr: Figuring Out Work, Life and Parenting

0:00
Hello everybody, welcome back to the All Figured out Podcast.
0:03
My name is Andrea Barr. Welcome to the show.
0:06
Thank you for joining me again this week.
0:08
It is great to have you here and if you clicked on this episode I
0:12
have a feeling you either a just love the show and want to hear
0:15
me talk or you are in the market for a new.
0:19
Job or you're super? Prepared and you just want to be
0:22
ready in case the dreamiest of dream jobs comes your way and
0:26
you want to own the interview. So today's episode is like I
0:31
said, all about upping your interview game.
0:34
Now I originally recorded this conversation with Jenna
0:36
Mulheron, who fun fact has since made a very exciting career
0:41
pivot of her own. And while she is no longer
0:44
running her business owned the interview, her years of
0:48
expertise and experience in HR and recruitment, plus the
0:51
strategies she shares in this episode are just so relevant
0:54
that we are going to air anyways.
0:56
So in this episode, you were going to hear us talk about how
0:59
do you can confidently prepare for an interview without
1:02
sounding over rehearsed, which I know was a really big, you know,
1:05
it's a fine balance there. The biggest mistakes that
1:08
candidates make and how to avoid them, why your mindset matters
1:12
just as much as your resume and how you can really like, you
1:15
know, fine tune your mindset going into an interview and how
1:19
you can own your next interview even when you feel
1:21
underqualified. Jenna's advice is super
1:24
straightforward, actionable and just lovely.
1:27
She's a lovely human being and I think you're going to really
1:30
enjoy hearing tips from the inside of someone who's been in
1:33
a jar for over 15 years. She is wonderful and it's a must
1:37
listen for anybody who's in the job market.
1:39
So without further ado, Jenna Mulheron, you're listening to
1:44
the All Figured Out Podcast. I'm your host, Andrea Barr.
1:50
I'm a career coach for parents, mom of two, and a
1:52
self-proclaimed expert at winging it.
1:55
After 10 years in the corporate world, two major career pivots,
1:58
and navigating life with kids, I've learned one thing.
2:01
No parent. Has it all figured?
2:03
Out and that's OK Here, we're all about growing personally and
2:08
professionally while keeping family time sacred you'll get
2:11
practical tips, career strategies, and musings on life,
2:14
plus guest experts to help us fill in the.
2:16
Gaps. So grab a coffee or hide in your
2:19
car for some the time. We're about to figure out this
2:22
work, life and parenting stuff out together.
2:27
Well, thanks for coming back on the podcast.
2:30
We're a couple minutes later behind the curtain, they're
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going to be talking about the interview.
2:36
So if you listen to Part 1 of the episode, Jenna so graceful.
2:39
She shares behind the curtain again on like her whole career
2:43
story and pivots, having two children, the ins and outs, the
2:47
making choices and decisions around your career, going back,
2:51
starting again. Anyway, it was phenomenal.
2:53
It was so inspiring, so many little Nuggets.
2:55
And then we decided to decided in the moment that we were going
2:59
to cut the interview short and we were going to do one that's
3:01
just we're going to go into interviews.
3:03
So Jenna is the owner of Only Interview at Only Interview on
3:07
Instagram. It's fantastic.
3:09
She makes such cool content. We've got some like ring lights
3:13
and everything set up here. Both of us have like brought our
3:15
like hack equipment. To film this, yeah.
3:18
In person. And yeah, she just has like,
3:21
really beautiful, very thoughtful and like generous
3:25
content. I would say what you put out is
3:27
you're not trying to like, you know, like the kids say, like
3:30
gatekeeping. There's like no like gatekeeping
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to be like, I'm going to give you part of the story of
3:36
interviews and then come by this thing over here.
3:38
Although you should buy the stuff that she puts out.
3:41
But like, you're just, you're just generous.
3:43
And it's like, yeah. And you're honest too about the
3:46
stuff that so many of us feel in interviews, which is like, fear,
3:50
I'm not good enough. Who am I and all that?
3:53
So you really like, address all that head on.
3:55
It's for anybody. But I think especially for
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parents, it's a really great place to just feel inspired and
4:01
not scared about the interviews and like some tips that you have
4:04
about like just how to navigate it.
4:06
So OK, interviews. So I know we have to as a career
4:11
coach and as somebody who is also in HR, has been an LED, has
4:15
an interview company, we have to start at the beginning of like
4:20
the clarity portion. So somebody is and I love
4:24
hearing different perspectives. I have my own.
4:26
So somebody, you know, say you're chatting with a friend or
4:29
somebody that you going to work with and they're like, OK, I'm
4:31
gonna go. I really want to land these
4:33
interviews. I'm going to go, I've put out
4:35
all these job. I see all these job postings.
4:38
I was gonna start applying for jobs everywhere.
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And then they're like, right. And you're like, huh, Yeah,
4:46
share. What's your what's your POV when
4:48
you hear that? So this always brings me back to
4:53
what do you want? I think that so often the reason
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why people are unsuccessful in job interviews is because they
5:03
don't know what they want. So they're applying to
5:04
everything and then they're going into interviews, maybe
5:08
using similar examples in every single interview, or maybe just
5:14
subconsciously they are not presenting themselves as the
5:18
best candidate for the role because they're like, if I get
5:21
this job, I'd be happy. If I get this one, I'd be happy.
5:23
If they get this job, I'd be happy.
5:24
It's not like the job that they really want.
5:27
They're kind of just going for not not to say that they're
5:31
applying for things that they wouldn't like.
5:33
Yeah, they're applying for all the things that they think that
5:35
they would like, but they're not narrowing in.
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And so that's often the first question that I ask people when
5:41
they're unsuccessful in interviews is like, do you
5:44
actually want this job? And most of the time the answer
5:48
is not really. And then what do you?
5:51
And then what is that if if they say not really, it's like the
5:56
person's like crap. Like.
5:58
Oh no, what's your advice then? Like what is a person to do in
6:02
that? Situation.
6:05
So then it's. I know that this doesn't work
6:09
for everyone. I don't think that everyone is
6:12
like a reflector, like wants to go and like spend time
6:15
reflecting. But honestly, I'm like, how else
6:17
are you going to figure it out if you don't give your time like
6:21
yourself, the time to reflect on like what actually brings you
6:24
joy and makes you happy and things.
6:26
So it could be journaling for you.
6:28
It could be having conversations with many people.
6:30
It could be going for a walk or whatever.
6:32
But you do need to create the time and space to think about
6:35
what do you actually want and then what comes up.
6:39
And I've experienced this myself. 2 is like I want this
6:42
thing, but I don't have this. I can't do this.
6:47
I I've never done this. Like the all the reasons why you
6:53
are not qualified for that job. That is the job that you really,
6:58
really want, yes. And then that's when the work
7:01
begins. It's the confidence or it's like
7:04
that. We're too logical.
7:06
Yeah. Like, imagine you ask a child,
7:08
what do you want to be when you grow up?
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And they're like, I want to be a doctor.
7:12
They just say that and that's it.
7:13
And then they move on. Versus if you ask someone like
7:16
who's even in their 20s, thirties, whatever, they're
7:17
like, well, I really want to be a.
7:19
They might answer that question like, I really want to be a
7:21
doctor. But that, yeah, like.
7:24
Go back to school. And then this comes back to the
7:26
conversation that we had in episode the first episode, which
7:29
was around choice. Because today as a 38 year old,
7:33
I could say, or sorry, I'm 39 now.
7:37
I just have my birthday. As a 39 year old, I could say
7:42
like, I I think it'd be really cool to be a doctor.
7:45
Like truly. Yeah, I think it'd be really
7:47
cool to be a doctor now or a psychologist now for me to do
7:53
that. Like of course all the things
7:56
are going to come up like I have like not the right math.
7:59
I didn't learn the right math, I didn't take this right sciences.
8:03
I would have to go back and do all of that in order to then get
8:08
probably some version of an underground, my undergrads in
8:11
sport management, not relevant to those things.
8:14
So then I would have to whatever.
8:15
So there is a path that I would have to take in order to do it.
8:18
Could I do it? Yes, yes.
8:20
The cost potentially is time away from my family, like all
8:25
the things, but it's all a choice.
8:27
Could I do it? Yes, it's possible, but it's
8:31
going to probably be really hard.
8:33
Yeah, that's the truth. Yeah.
8:35
And what I always say to people in that situation, too, is I get
8:39
it. Like, it's it.
8:40
It does. It does become like a lot of
8:41
people who I'm meeting with in that regard.
8:44
And they've got something like really, really that feels really
8:46
big. It's often these really big
8:48
ones, like what I really wanted to be was a doctor, but I didn't
8:51
do it. And now I'm stuck with this
8:52
thing, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.
8:53
And what I often ask him is like, OK, what is it about that?
8:56
And we spent a lot of time there.
8:58
It's like, tell me all the quality of what that life might
9:01
look like that have that has you being attracted like, well, I
9:04
just want to be a helping profession.
9:05
OK, tell me more about that. Like, and then you drill down to
9:08
it and it turns out they just feel like they're not doing good
9:10
in the world. They're not exercising the
9:13
helping side of them or whatever and in some capacity or they
9:17
want respect and they want to feel revered.
9:19
And they don't want to say that aloud either.
9:20
You're like, well, I don't want to say that that that's it, but
9:24
I don't feel respected in my job right now and I don't feel proud
9:28
when I share what I do. Yeah, it's like, OK, we can
9:30
like, you know, if it's not, if there are too many barriers,
9:33
like you said to cost and time away from family, are there is
9:38
there a way to kind of leave it in in other ways?
9:41
And so I think that's, yeah, that's, it's so important to
9:44
kind of so you get that clarity, you figure it out your job
9:48
searching. And there's, I have a couple
9:50
episodes on job searching so, well, I want to make sure we're
9:52
getting interview things out of you.
9:54
So I'm gonna repeat myself in yeah, because I want to ask you
9:57
all the things. Um, let's talk about the person
10:00
who's going for the job that feels like, you know, it's like
10:03
they've got 75% of the job description they're going in and
10:08
they have like a healthy amount of nerves, nervousness and that
10:11
sort of thing. Let's talk about prep actually.
10:14
Yes. How do you suggest?
10:16
It can feel very big and overwhelming, and you're like
10:19
doing it the night before usually.
10:20
And you're like, yeah, what's like, what's the best way that
10:23
you've seen or, you know, to be preparing for an interview?
10:27
Yes. OK, so let's say you've got to
10:29
the place where you know, yes, this is the job that I really
10:34
want and you've been taking the time.
10:37
Like my recommendation would be that you are taking the time to
10:41
think about what are the skills, the ability and the experience
10:45
that are required of that job and where in the past have you
10:49
gained those things? Maybe not full.
10:51
So we're talking about 75%. Maybe you have of the things
10:56
that of that 25%, maybe you kind of have like light dusting
11:00
experience of that. Yeah, great.
11:01
Write that down. Start putting your examples and
11:05
ideas together around the different skill, ability,
11:09
experience that you had that's related to the job.
11:12
And if you're preparing the night before and you're cramming
11:18
it all in, that could be quite stressful.
11:20
So yeah, it's probably a lot of people are probably doing that,
11:24
but my recommendation is like to try not to do that.
11:28
And I think a great way, and I think you had referenced this to
11:31
me a couple of weeks ago and something that I get my clients
11:33
to do as well, which is start, start a list of all the
11:37
different things. So when you're going through an
11:41
experience at work, you can say like, oh, this is actually going
11:45
to be a really great example of me being able to demonstrate my
11:49
ability to influence people. Or you have reference like I got
11:53
reamed out in front of like a group of people, but maintained
11:56
like my confidence and my composure and my presence in the
12:02
room and still was able to like get through the presentation.
12:06
So anything that you have that happens at work that you think
12:09
could be something that you share in the future, I would
12:12
write it down while you remember it in the moment.
12:16
So track that in like a Google doc or have your journal or
12:19
whatever it might be is like the best thing that you can do to be
12:23
proactive. And then, yeah, if you're,
12:25
you're prepping in a like more reactive than I would like, look
12:29
through the job description, pull out the skills and ability
12:32
that you are required for the job and start to just really
12:35
rack your brain for those examples.
12:37
Call a friend if you need to to help remember some of those.
12:40
Things good one. So like if you work with
12:42
somebody like I'm thinking of my bestie that I worked with
12:44
Aritzia and if I were going to a job interview, I would 100%
12:47
caller. We didn't always work directly,
12:49
but I'd be like, OK, here are some examples and she would for
12:52
sure be like, well, what we did this this way, and we did that
12:54
that way. Remember that time you were
12:55
crying to me about or whatever? It's such a good idea yes, I
12:59
love that. And I mean hot tip is with
13:02
Chachi BT these days, I love uploading.
13:04
I get clients like upload job descriptions into ChatGPT to
13:07
pull out skills, abilities, experiences and things like
13:10
that. Just to like give you something.
13:12
You might see 90% of it, but sometimes tracking PPT can pick
13:16
up a few extra ones. You might have a scene and then
13:19
just writing like jotting down notes.
13:21
It doesn't have to be scripts either, right?
13:23
Like no jogging your own memory. And I tell clients, like, pull
13:27
it from the back of like your archives to like the forefront,
13:30
just to remember. Oftentimes I always compare it
13:32
to like cheating in high school, which is not to say that I
13:36
cheated in high school, but it's like the times that you make a
13:38
CHEAT SHEET are the he remember everything off the CHEAT SHEET,
13:41
whether it's like a study CHEAT SHEET or like you cheated.
13:45
Yeah. But anyways, I always think
13:48
about that. It's like the things that you
13:50
put on, like your little study add are the things that you end
13:53
up remembering. So taking the time to reflect on
13:57
past experiences gives you the ability to pull it from the
14:00
archives and just have it on the forefront.
14:02
And the other thing people often get stuck on is like, well, I
14:06
don't remember the exact. I'm like, just make it up.
14:08
Like I'm not telling you to lie by any means, but the way that
14:13
you think you handled it, let's just talk about that because if
14:17
today you were to be faced with that scenario, that's how you
14:20
would likely handle the scenario.
14:22
Yeah. So do your best to remember and
14:25
if you need to add in some detail of that experience, how
14:29
you would handle it today, then talk about that so that you're
14:31
not getting like, oh, I can't use that example because I can't
14:34
remember this little minute detail in the middle.
14:38
Like no one's fact checking you. So again, no like fibbing and
14:42
like making up elaborate stories.
14:44
But I think if there's certain things like, oh, and then we
14:47
created this checklist to make sure that we're all checked.
14:49
Like maybe you didn't actually do that, but you it's something
14:52
that you now you. Or you would have done like, OK,
14:55
how did you remedy the situation that you messed up?
14:57
OK, well, I learned from it and now I create this checklist.
14:59
Yes. And yeah.
15:00
Like I know it's funny how we think that we are going to be
15:04
fact checked. Yeah.
15:05
Does that. Have you ever heard of a
15:06
situation where somebody has like in a reference, we talk
15:10
about references for a second. I think people think that and I
15:13
don't know if you know the answer to any of.
15:14
So I'm very excited to hear from you.
15:16
Felt like former HR person. So you're in an interview,
15:21
you're telling stories or whatever, and you're sharing and
15:24
things are going well. What is fact checked?
15:27
Yeah, like. What can they find out about?
15:31
Yeah. So, OK, so 2, two things come to
15:35
mind. So one is the consistency of the
15:40
stories that you tell in interviews across like
15:44
oftentimes you'll have like 3 interviews and at the end notes
15:48
will be compared or in an inequitable situation, it's
15:53
being discussed throughout, which isn't the best because
15:55
then everyone has their own opinions and then there's bias
15:58
and all the things which unfortunately happens.
16:00
But anyhow, the consistency of your stories that you're telling
16:05
throughout those interviews is something that will come up.
16:08
I don't think that people are actually like what was said here
16:12
and what was said here. But I think that for sure
16:15
there's other styles of interviews where people say
16:19
like, OK, well, tell me about an experience.
16:23
Like they get you to go way back in time.
16:25
I can't remember in this at the top of my brain, what the style
16:28
of interview is called. Again, I'll have to come back to
16:31
you. Yeah.
16:31
Anyways, it brings you back to like, OK, so tell me about an
16:35
experience in high school, like what were you good at?
16:38
And it brings you through your journey from like a moment in
16:42
time until today. And they start to see like the
16:45
idea as they start to see these patterns about your experience.
16:51
Yes. So that allows them then to
16:53
identify like, OK, if someone behaves this way, how might they
16:57
behave in the future, which is essentially what those questions
17:00
being asked are. Like tell me about a time that
17:02
you blah, blah, blah to figure out, OK, how did they behave?
17:06
How might they be anyhow? So references.
17:11
So when someone calls for a reference, most companies have
17:16
something like a policy in place where they one don't give
17:20
references or if they give references, it's only a yes or a
17:23
no, like yes we will hire them or no we wouldn't hire them and
17:28
nothing more than that. You mean the company that is
17:30
that you've interviewed with their policy would be that the
17:33
question that they ask is did this person work for you, yes or
17:36
no? No, the the one who is the
17:38
reference. Yes.
17:39
So the reference, the the reference would call Aritzia and
17:44
say, yeah, someone from Aritzia and say, oh, did did you work at
17:49
a red seat or did this person work at a ritzy did.
17:51
Andrea work at Aritzia and these.
17:52
Days yes or no, Yes. Would you rehire her again?
17:56
Yes or no. And that's it.
17:58
Like a lot of times references will just be as simple as that
18:01
because the Aritzia, the Lulu Lemon, the whoever the
18:04
organization says we don't give references, but we can confirm
18:09
or deny. Like we can confirm that they
18:10
worked here. It didn't work here.
18:12
I didn't know that, yes. So then they'll be like personal
18:16
references where you might like offer someone to ask someone to
18:22
be your reference. And then those organizations
18:25
asking like, the truth is with references, no one's going to
18:29
give a reference that isn't going to say something good
18:32
about them. So to a certain extent, like I
18:38
don't know how useful they truly are, which is why it's so
18:42
important during the interview to actually be asking questions.
18:46
Like the interviewers need to be asking better questions to
18:50
identify can this person do the job or not versus because even
18:56
when you say chemist person do the job or not and you're asking
18:59
yes, they could make up a story, but if you're asking the right
19:04
questions, you're going to identify by the end of the
19:08
conversation if you're a good interviewer.
19:10
Yeah. Should I hire this person or
19:12
not? Because if you diving, if you're
19:15
then drilling into the specifics or asking follow up questions,
19:19
you'll be able to see like a a very good.
19:22
Yeah. Fiber, of course, they're going
19:24
to whatever and like good for them if they get through and
19:26
they get the job and like see how it goes and whatever.
19:30
But the majority of people are not lying and of a good
19:33
interviewer is asking those follow up questions and really
19:36
like drill drilling into the experience and like what they
19:39
learned and all those things you'll be able to identify.
19:42
Does that does that person meet your expectation or not to do
19:45
the job? Yeah, you know what?
19:46
What's so many things are coming up, but for some reason in this
19:49
moment, what I'm thinking about is like how you're interviewing
19:52
the interviewer as much as they're interviewing you and how
19:54
you're getting vibes. And sometimes you're like, you
19:57
know, I'll speak with clients who are like, Oh my God, they
19:59
were like super hard on me and like, we're really drilling.
20:03
And as you were saying. Drilling.
20:04
I was like, that's interesting because you want to be drilling.
20:08
Hopefully they're drilling in a kind way, yes.
20:10
But then as the interviewee, you have to also remember that this
20:13
is a, it's a lot of money that we spend on human capital and
20:17
humans. And it is really important for
20:20
them to like what they're doing is they're trying to see if you
20:23
are that fiber, if you seem like you lack integrity.
20:27
So as annoying as it can be to feel like you're being
20:29
questioned, it is important that they do that.
20:34
Yeah. And so you don't have to feel
20:36
like, oh, this person seems like an asshole.
20:39
Hopefully they're doing it in a respectful way.
20:40
You can definitely feel vibe. Yeah, for sure.
20:42
But even if they're like drilling down a little bit more,
20:44
it's not indicative that like, that's how they're going to run
20:46
the show all the time. It's.
20:48
Important. Like tell me more about that.
20:50
Yeah, like they're wanting more specifics.
20:53
Then yeah, sure. Yeah, yeah.
20:56
And if you're good, if you're the right candidate or the good,
20:58
you're a good person, then like give him, give him everything.
21:00
Yeah. So yeah.
21:01
OK. OK, like that.
21:04
OK, references. So that's interesting.
21:06
So there's not a lot. And sometimes, like I am often a
21:09
reference for people who I used to manage and who are in like
21:12
younger years or whatever. Yeah.
21:13
And you get some funny references where they're like,
21:16
tell me like what are their strengths?
21:17
What are their weaknesses? Which is like, I'm always like,
21:19
just give a good reference and like, but I won't try to
21:23
elaborate too much, but just know that like that can also be
21:26
asked whether or not they're supposed to.
21:28
What's that whole thing? So we're in Canada.
21:29
What's the whole thing about? Like you're not supposed to give
21:32
a bad reference, is that? Well, I think you can just be
21:34
held that like if you are preventing someone from getting
21:37
a job, OK, then OK, that's a legal issue.
21:41
That's so weird. Yeah, OK.
21:42
Anyways, no, we don't need to go into that, but just know
21:44
references will be called. Yes, but they're not going to
21:47
Fact Check every single story that you gave in the.
21:48
Interview and I do think if you are someone that does
21:51
references, I would be asking questions that you're going to
21:54
learn something about the person that maybe you wouldn't
21:57
otherwise have known about them from interviewing them.
22:00
So just I, I would be more strategic with questions like
22:04
someone had asked for me in one of my references, like does this
22:09
person, they use the same list of reference questions that they
22:13
use for their junior team members for me?
22:15
So it was something like, does this person show up to work on
22:18
time or have a like something crazy like that?
22:20
And I was like, they asked you what?
22:22
And they were like, yeah, it was very odd.
22:24
My reference is telling me this. I'm like, that is so bizarre to.
22:28
Bizarre. Like that you would ask a
22:30
director level about showing up to work on time.
22:33
Like like you have this time and space to ask this, but then
22:37
anything about me. But you're but that's what you
22:40
chose to ask. So I would just like to.
22:42
Say. It just like really look at
22:44
those reference questions to see if there are like even worth
22:47
asking. Oh my gosh, that is so
22:49
interesting. OK, when you're preparing for an
22:52
interview and you're doing your due diligence on the company,
22:55
the people that are going to be interviewing you.
22:58
OK, first of all, if do you feel like it's appropriate for the
23:01
interviewee, the person who's going for the interview to say
23:04
ask the recruitment team. I'm just wondering who's gonna
23:07
be in the room, who's gonna be interviewing me?
23:08
Like what level? Like how much information is
23:10
appropriate to? Ask.
23:11
Yeah, that is like, that's exactly what I would ask.
23:14
So anytime I think an underutilized resource is
23:18
whoever initially is setting up the interview with you, like a
23:21
talent acquisition team member. Sometimes it's the hiring
23:24
manager, but let's say it's someone HR, town, tuition,
23:27
someone that's not the hiring manager.
23:30
They are a person that you can ask a lot of information from.
23:33
They might not give you everything, but that is a great
23:37
person to yeah, like leverage that time with them because
23:40
they're they're setting up that meeting.
23:42
That first conversation is to verify like are you who you say
23:46
you are? Like here's your resume and your
23:48
resume. I'm now screening you to make
23:50
sure that yes, you are qualified and have the skill, ability,
23:54
experience that we're looking for for this job.
23:57
So I'm not going to put you in front of the hiring manager
23:59
until I know that I can like that's like the Fact Check I
24:02
would say is that screen. And then oftentimes they're
24:06
like, OK, do you have any questions for me?
24:08
I would just be prepared to ask all the questions there for as
24:11
much time as they have for you. So who if I'm moving forward in
24:16
this interview, who would my first interviewees interviewers
24:20
be? You could ask questions like
24:23
based on what you know about the hiring manager's goals, like why
24:25
are they hiring for this position?
24:28
Like what? What are they looking for in
24:30
your opinion? Like really leverage that person
24:33
so that you can set yourself up for more success and how you
24:37
want to maybe potentially respond to the interview
24:40
questions to come. Love that.
24:42
Yeah. And I think it's important not
24:44
to assume that they know, like understand the scope of the
24:48
recruiter. We'll call them, we'll call them
24:49
recruiter for the sake of this conversation.
24:52
Like don't be like, what's the like?
24:54
I'm like, don't ask questions that they wouldn't necessarily
24:57
be. Like 100% right and.
24:59
Ask them, but I like that, sorry.
25:02
This is like oftentimes in a screen, someone would ask me
25:07
like, oh, can you tell me what the department's goals are and
25:10
the working relationship between the hiring manager, like the
25:15
leader and their team members? And like how often do they meet
25:18
for one-on-one? So I'm like, well, like, I don't
25:21
know the that granular detail. Maybe at a smaller organization,
25:26
if it's HR doing it, they might have those ideas.
25:29
But like if it's a recruiter, they likely don't have that
25:33
information, but they would likely have the information on
25:35
like why are we hiring this person and what the hiring
25:38
manager's goals are. Yes, because that that they
25:41
would need that information to know who to source.
25:43
Right, So think of it like the recruiter would have the
25:46
information that would be on a brief totally.
25:49
That would be like, OK, here's the brief.
25:50
In order to go find this person, that's the level of information
25:54
that they would have. I have to share an A story on
25:56
like a shout out to I interviewed for Lush years ago,
25:59
like so, so long ago. I think they approached me when
26:03
I was at Aritzia and I didn't end up like moving forward with
26:07
them. I think I was like, you know
26:08
what, like it was too similar to what I was doing.
26:10
It didn't feel like the right move at the time.
26:12
But I have to give credit to the recruiter that I was working
26:15
with. He had a funny man.
26:18
He was, he was one of the most incredible recruiters I've ever
26:21
met. Where he, and you're talking
26:23
about Pod Padrick. Anyway, if you're listening
26:27
unreal, like honestly unreal. And I'm calling out because he
26:31
was just fantastic. The amount, the level of
26:33
information that he had was so unreal.
26:36
But he was also very much like, Oh yeah, he knew his boundaries.
26:39
So he wasn't like making stuff up about like, and I also wasn't
26:41
asking inappropriate questions that he wouldn't know, but he
26:44
was so he was so honest. He was honest about the makeup
26:48
of the team. He was like, this is like the
26:50
candidate that I was briefed to go and find.
26:52
This is, let me give you some context around like the people
26:55
that you're going to be interviewing.
26:56
Like it was really cool. And that's maybe Diamond
26:59
doesn't, but that made me like really, it was really cool to
27:02
like have that experience. And my gut was like, wow, I
27:04
really want to move forward. And now I want to take the
27:06
interview because yes, that was a beautiful, organized,
27:09
organized and she was like legit.
27:13
So that was cool. OK, so that's the so that's the
27:16
prep. So get some information from the
27:18
HR recruitment team, like use that resource in an appropriate
27:22
way. Pay your prepping.
27:25
So we figure out like you're you're prepping in advance.
27:27
You've got your stories lined up.
27:29
You've PDF. I'm always saying this like
27:31
you've PDF the job description because the job description can
27:33
go away online. It disappears.
27:36
You've got that. My God, I've like actually done
27:38
that before where I was kind of having I had to supply for UBC
27:41
at one point and I had to go to the hiring manager or to the
27:44
recruitment person, embarrassingly, and be like, can
27:47
you send me a copy of the job description?
27:49
It's gone. Yeah.
27:51
OK, So you're in the interview. You're going to own the
27:54
interview. You're just going to own.
27:56
It. You're owning it.
27:58
Tell me about yourself. This is one of my favorite
28:00
things to talk about, but I want to hear your perspective.
28:02
What is the best tell me about yourself statement?
28:06
Yes, I think it easy framework to choose past, present, future
28:13
there that however it flow is best for you.
28:16
But I would say starting with and I would focus because you're
28:21
in an interview and it's for career.
28:24
I would focus on career and not about your personal life.
28:27
However, I will caveat this with if you're applying for an
28:30
organization where you know they really value the person and
28:35
outside of work as well, then sprinkle that into.
28:39
Otherwise, I'll keep it to like your career story.
28:42
So if you're a Mountaineer applying for Arcteryx, you're
28:44
talking about the fact that you're a Mountaineer because
28:48
they love. That yes.
28:49
And if you're applying for our tariffs for sure you're talking
28:52
about being outdoors. They they do they do that.
28:55
Yeah, totally true. OK, so that's a great example.
28:59
So I would start with like a little bit about your past of
29:03
like what got you here? What are you seeing for yourself
29:08
in the future? Like what are your future career
29:10
goals? And then like, why are you in
29:12
this room? Like presently, where are you in
29:15
this room? I would I would go with that
29:17
format. Love that.
29:19
Yeah, so the person has who is interviewing was laid off.
29:24
Yeah. I know a lot of people have a
29:26
lot of fear and I'm talking to a lot of people right now who have
29:29
been laid off. I know it's such as life, but it
29:32
just feels like there's this energy right now and there's a
29:34
lot of things that are tumultuous perhaps in tech.
29:36
So the person and let's not use a layoff because I think a
29:40
layoff is an almost an easier one where it's like, I'm in tech
29:43
and we just did a mass layoff. Like that's kind of like, sure,
29:46
what if a person was kind of part of like maybe a smaller
29:49
layoff or like their role was, I know there's people laminated,
29:52
eliminated or not for performance reasons.
29:56
Now let's talk. About that like yes.
29:57
What are some tips you give for that person to like do the tell
30:01
me about yourself? That would feel really anxiety
30:03
provoking. Yeah, I think you still go.
30:05
I think the past, present and future, it could still work
30:08
again in like whatever order you want to tell it in.
30:11
I think that explaining, OK, so let's go to the layoff or like
30:17
someone, maybe someone took like a mental health leave or
30:20
something like that. OK, So anytime that you're on a
30:23
leave, I would not hide from it. It's just like not, not not
30:27
putting it on your resume. Like people are going to have
30:29
questions about it and they want to know, but I don't think you
30:31
need to spend a lot of focus on it.
30:34
So it depends on how much time you're taking off.
30:37
So like, let's say like over this last year, I this, this is
30:41
what someone could say about their mental health leave.
30:44
And they actually don't even of course that you don't even need
30:46
to share that it's a mental healthy that you're taking like
30:48
I took off the this last year to focus on spending more time AB
30:53
and C. Is it with your family?
30:55
Is it with yourself? I have never had the opportunity
30:58
since I started working. But from the time I was 13 until
31:01
now, I've never taken a parental leave.
31:04
Maybe this is the story. Yeah, I've never taken a
31:06
parental leave. I chose to strategically pause
31:09
my career and spend time on myself doing a little bit of
31:13
travel, doing this, doing that, whatever it might be.
31:16
If you're comfortable sharing your mental health story, then
31:19
go for it. Otherwise, I would keep it to
31:22
the other things and that's all you need to say.
31:25
If they have more questions and they'll ask the same thing.
31:28
OK, so the layoff like it's been 8 months.
31:31
So I was laid off. It was a small layoff.
31:33
My role ended up being eliminated.
31:36
So during that time, again, you could tell the same story.
31:39
Like I haven't had any time off since I was such and such years
31:43
old. And like, this was an
31:45
opportunity where I really got to like step away from the
31:49
day-to-day of the like corporate environment, which made me like,
31:54
which allowed me to learn this about myself.
31:57
I don't think you need to talk about like I signed up for a
32:00
course and I did this. Like there are people who do
32:03
that, but I don't feel like you, you have to come up with that or
32:08
that you need to do that during that time.
32:10
Like what we didn't talk about at the beginning of this, which
32:12
I meant to say was like applying for jobs is a full time job.
32:17
Like I truly, that is a full time job.
32:19
And so that's what you're doing. You're spending time searching
32:25
for the right position. And I think if you could, you
32:29
could talk about that too and and say something along the
32:32
lines of I've been laid off for eight months and the reason why,
32:37
like when we all know what the market is like.
32:39
But two, like I am being really strategic.
32:42
I want to work, but I want to make sure that I'm applying for
32:45
things that align with my career goals.
32:48
And I don't want to take just any job and at some point maybe
32:53
we have to work on due jobs that we don't want to do.
32:58
But if this person is in the position where they can like
33:00
choose something that's really strategic, then talk about that.
33:03
So those are some various ways that you can navigate that.
33:06
But All in all, I would say is don't spend a lot of time on
33:09
that. Like you can keep it.
33:11
Short yes, you don't have to focus on it.
33:13
It's like when you click on it, you saw another tick tock and it
33:16
was just like somebody who like did something embarrassing.
33:18
Like you don't have to sit there like Oh my God, I'm so
33:19
embarrassed and ruminate. He just continuing to draw.
33:22
Attention. Yes, exactly.
33:24
And then it and then it's like, oh, why did they feel so weird
33:26
about it? Yeah.
33:27
Like what really happened? Like there might be even more
33:29
questions. So yeah, I love that.
33:33
OK, everybody rewind if you're interviewing rewind, it's like
33:36
relisten to that because it's it's honest and and you don't
33:40
have to give, I think. I think you don't have to give
33:42
too many details either. Right.
33:43
Exactly. When you're the person you're
33:45
like, but I want to be honest, which is such a great thing.
33:48
But honesty and rambling and continuing to like, ruminate on
33:53
something are two very different.
33:55
Yes. Things like I don't encourage
33:57
you to go into the interview and say I've been laid off.
34:00
I've been interviewing full on for the past eight months.
34:03
Keep getting to the final interview and not get.
34:05
It Oh my God. Yeah, because the the
34:07
interviewer with even the best intentioned person who does not
34:12
want to have bias listening to that is going to make up
34:16
something about why that is unintentionally.
34:19
So we don't need to put that in their brain.
34:22
That could be true, but that's a conversation for for me or for
34:25
you to have that like a coaching conversation about that and we
34:28
can support you in other ways, yes, but it's definitely not
34:32
something that you want to tell the hiring manager.
34:34
No. Because we don't want them to
34:36
make up the reason why. Because you might not even know
34:39
why at that point, you're not getting the job.
34:41
I love that. And like, who doesn't want to
34:43
hear I'm looking for the right next move.
34:46
That is every hiring manager. Recruiters dream to be like,
34:50
this person isn't just hitting easy apply like left, right and
34:53
centre. They're being thoughtful and
34:54
strategic. And who wouldn't want, if
34:57
allowed, who wouldn't want to take time off with their kids?
34:59
And you know, like if those aren't bad things.
35:01
So yeah, OK, I love that. OK, so we're going to keep going
35:05
and I'm doing the Tell me about yourself.
35:08
Oh, it's 20 minutes later. I'm still talking about myself.
35:11
The ramble is real. What do you do?
35:15
Like that train that left the station and it's there's no
35:19
brakes. Yes.
35:20
Jenna like, how does somebody, how do you reel it?
35:22
Back OK so first I want to answer this with people ask me
35:28
questions like how long is too long for any answer?
35:31
Like what's the time frame of answering questions?
35:34
There isn't really like a like a black and white answer to this.
35:39
What I would say is the answer is too long when you are not
35:44
answering the question and you're not focusing on like
35:47
relevant information for them to learn why they should hire you
35:50
for the job. That's when it goes on too long.
35:52
So 20 minutes 100% is too long no matter what.
35:55
Or if you forgot the question. Or if you forgot the question.
35:58
I've done. That, but I would say like let's
36:01
say that you're telling me about yourself, maybe you are talking
36:04
for 5 minutes. Like that's a long answer, but
36:07
if you are giving them information that's going to help
36:10
them make their choice of whether or not they should hire
36:12
you, then I think it's great. Yeah.
36:15
But if you're rambling, OK, so now you're in that you're
36:18
answering, you're at the five minute mark and you're like
36:22
whole gosh, I have been going on for so.
36:25
Long and I haven't even scratched the surface of
36:27
answering the question because I've just been rambling about my
36:29
mountaineering for 5 minutes. Yes, I would.
36:31
Just stop yourself. I would stop yourself.
36:33
And I would just say, you know what?
36:35
I recognize right now that I am not answering your question.
36:38
I recognize that I'm rambling right now.
36:40
Like just call it out and be like, I'm going to just tell you
36:43
what you need to know, which is this.
36:45
I'm in Mountaineer. I love it.
36:47
You know that because I've been talking about that and this is
36:51
what I want you to know about my career journey.
36:54
That's important for you to hire me for this job.
36:56
Oh my God, Jenna. You're so funny, but the reason
37:01
why I love that approach so much is because it is so refreshing
37:06
to be with someone who is self aware.
37:08
Yes, and that's all you want as a hiring manager.
37:11
Like we hire so many different people and that's what makes
37:15
team. That's what makes the team
37:17
beautiful. It's like different people,
37:19
diversity on our team of thought and everything.
37:22
So we don't want everyone to be the same.
37:24
And the reality is we're going to have the Ramblers on our
37:28
team. And like, I am one of those
37:30
Ramblers. So that's how I would approach
37:33
it is to just stop, call yourself out and then like get
37:36
to the point and then move on. And then now we know this.
37:40
So reminding yourself after you respond and like finish up that
37:44
question, it's like what those things that you're going to do
37:46
to help keep yourself on track for the rest of the interview.
37:49
So that is not a pattern for the whole conversation.
37:52
Wow. So have a piece of paper with
37:54
you. When they ask you the question,
37:56
write down the question. Maybe you quickly write the
37:59
three different bullets of what you want to say.
38:02
Like I want to make sure I touch on this, this, and this.
38:05
Give yourself the 30 seconds and then answer.
38:08
Their questions, but that's. OK, you keep on track.
38:10
There are no rules to interviewing is what I like to
38:14
say, unless you're in like a very formalized setting where
38:18
there is like they tell you like no paper, no, this, no, that,
38:22
no, this, So that then then like followed their rules.
38:25
But generally speaking, there are no rules.
38:27
So the same thing with like pausing and being like, Oh my
38:31
goodness, I realized I'm totally off track right now.
38:34
Like let me let's rein it in here.
38:36
Like let's showing that self-awareness is so awesome.
38:40
And no one said you can't do that.
38:42
Yes, just bring yourself back. So I, yeah, I would have a piece
38:45
of paper and a pen if you're someone that's like, I have a
38:49
hard time staying on track. Yeah, right down the question.
38:53
Wow, what a mic drop. What a tick tock moment.
38:58
There's the clip, honestly. But like, I would want to hire
39:01
that person even if they weren't even the most qualified.
39:05
I'd be like, you're set. You're a real human.
39:07
And that's my like, style. But like, I want to work and
39:10
hire people who are real, who are self aware, who can make
39:13
light of a situation if that's your nature.
39:15
Like to be like, Oh my goodness. Like there I go.
39:18
You know, it's something I've like, yeah.
39:19
And that could be like you're, and then maybe you could do a
39:22
callback and like the opportunity section where people
39:24
are like, what's your weakness or opportunities?
39:25
He's like, well, as formerly seen, like I have a habit of
39:28
rambling, but like, I also know that about myself.
39:30
So like, I know I have like tricks now to reign it in.
39:33
Like there's just just be human. Because yes.
39:36
Also I feel like as an interviewer in the past, like
39:38
you can see when the person is so nervous or like really going
39:42
off the rails and it's like watching somebody on stage like
39:45
a kid and you're like, Oh my God, they're about to fall.
39:48
Like, yeah. But like, if the person was just
39:50
like, oh, man, like, you know, I'm really nervous, right?
39:52
Like, I'm feeling a bit nervous. Like I can, I can tell on
39:54
myself. It's like, oh, thank God they
39:56
know that they're nervous and like we can all just be like
39:58
take a deep breath together and just move on.
40:01
So I think there's something and and of course, you know, there's
40:04
different. Kathy has everything maybe he's
40:07
going for like, you know, law firm position.
40:09
There's certain like pits and like norms, but I think you can
40:12
kind of you would suss that out if that's where you're going
40:15
into. Yeah.
40:16
OK, so you get asked the question and you blank.
40:20
Yes, you're like. And and it's always I feel like
40:23
it can often be the. Tell me about a time when you
40:26
tell me about a time when you maybe not messed something up,
40:29
because we always remember those ones.
40:31
But tell me about a time when you had a situation with
40:34
somebody on your team and it you had to rectify it because it
40:38
wasn't a great relationship or whatever.
40:40
And you're sitting and you're like, Oh my God, I've had this,
40:44
but now I can't think of anything.
40:46
What do you suggest? Then I think so.
40:48
I think this directly goes back to your preparation because
40:52
unless you have interviewers that really don't know what
40:56
they're doing, because interviewers are going to ask
40:59
you questions to understand can you do the job or not?
41:02
They've given you a job posting that tells you what they're
41:05
looking for. So if you've gone back to that
41:07
and you've gone through it and you've thought of examples that
41:10
you can pull from and you know, with the like top things are
41:14
that they want in this person. You've got to assume, of course,
41:17
because you're not talking to them, but you're, you're, you're
41:20
taking all of the information that you have, which is the job
41:22
posting. I think that first and foremost
41:27
is often the reason why like someone that I was recently
41:31
helping this past week, She, she's really great at copying
41:34
the, the questions that they, they give her.
41:37
And then she'll come back and be like, oh, these are the
41:39
questions that they gave me. Oh, cool.
41:41
Yeah. So she'll always, she'll always
41:43
have them. She's this is someone that I've
41:45
supported over the years with interviewing for different roles
41:48
that she's pursued and gone. Cool.
41:50
So anyways, she had sent me the, the recent list of questions
41:54
that she was asked in an interview, none of which were
41:57
the interview questions that we prepped with, but all of which
42:02
were versions of them for the most part.
42:05
And she pulled an examples that we had gone through and talked
42:09
about and refreshed in mind. And she she did have examples
42:12
for everything and multiple different things that she could
42:14
have pulled from. So if you really are stuck and
42:18
you have nothing, I would give yourself time.
42:22
And I think having that piece of paper in those moments I give
42:25
you or someone that you can anticipate, I might forget or I
42:28
might lose my train of thought, it might not.
42:31
I might go completely blank. I would have a piece of paper
42:34
that you can just even write out the question because that might
42:37
bring up something for you and give yourself time to think
42:42
about it. Like you don't feel like you
42:44
have to respond right away. Like give yourself that 30
42:46
seconds or whatever it is that you might need.
42:48
Yeah. And then if you're still stuck
42:51
on that, then I would start sharing an example of a time of
42:57
like, like, not be specific and be more general about it.
43:01
And I think once you start sharing that, it might, you
43:05
know, trigger, yeah, trigger something like.
43:08
And so then you're answering the question.
43:10
Maybe not in the format that you would like.
43:13
You're giving them an example, a hypothetical scenario, and then
43:16
you could say and just specific example of this is this.
43:18
So you're giving yourself time to tell how you would handle it.
43:23
Maybe remember something and then at the end share the
43:25
specific. Example, OK, like that versus
43:28
being like wow, nothing's coming to me in this moment not instead
43:31
of calling that out yeah, just be like how I would approach
43:36
approach it would be this yeah, and OK and.
43:40
Don't even say I can't think of anything.
43:41
I would just say so how how I would approach that scenario is
43:45
ABC, Yeah. And then if you can think of
43:48
something, then share this specific at the end.
43:50
Yes, OK. Okay, weaknesses yes that are
43:55
well everyone jugs. It's like you were like, I'm
43:57
like 2 detail oriented. I'm like too punctual.
44:01
I'm too like I'm too perfect, whatever, Like I just care too
44:04
much about my work Mom. I know we're all like it's
44:07
everyone. We're past the point of like
44:09
that. Yes.
44:11
How do you answer it so that it is in your opinion, so that it's
44:15
it's honest. It does show your character and
44:19
your ability to do the job. I like that you keep saying that
44:22
like how it relates back to you being the perfect candidate or
44:25
the person who can do this job. Yes.
44:28
How do you how do you do that? How do you answer?
44:31
That yes. So do you not choose the thing
44:33
that is the most important thing.
44:34
So if you're looking at the job posting and you're like, I know
44:38
that they need someone who is like a clear communicator who
44:41
has strong leadership skills and has project management
44:44
experience. And maybe your project
44:49
management experience is 75% there.
44:53
You haven't done like this large scale event or whatever before.
44:57
Like maybe we're not going to draw attention to that because
45:01
they the job is large scale events.
45:03
Like I've done project management for everything but
45:06
large scale events, but the job itself is a project management
45:10
role for a large scale event. Like maybe I'm not going to say
45:14
my weakness is this. Genius.
45:17
Maybe or maybe you, maybe you might say like I have all of
45:22
these great experiences and the one thing that I haven't had the
45:27
opportunity to do yet is a large scale event.
45:29
And So what I know that's different about a large scale
45:33
event versus something that's smaller is your ability to
45:37
communicate, your ability to be organized, your ability to
45:41
really lead and influence people in those environments while your
45:44
project managing because you're dealing with that many more
45:47
vendors. So while I don't have that
45:50
direct experience, I know that my other experiences that I have
45:54
in this, this and this are what is going to be required of me in
45:58
this role. So you could respond to it in
45:59
that way too. Love it because it's true.
46:02
Like if you know it's I like the idea.
46:05
OK, so the format of like don't pick.
46:07
If it's like great communicator, don't pick.
46:10
That rambling is your weakness. But if you know, like in this
46:16
case, if you know the question is going to come up around the
46:20
fact that you have not done a large scale event and it's very
46:23
obvious, I kind of like that You lean in and you call it out.
46:26
Yes. Did you read Chris Boss's book
46:28
Never split the Difference? No negotiation.
46:30
No. OK, Everybody has to listen or
46:33
read. Actually listen to it on
46:34
Audible. It's a quick book.
46:37
He's a former CIA hostage negotiator and he's now a
46:40
negotiation expert in like corporate and stuff.
46:43
He's even on master class. It's such an awesome book
46:45
because he's basically it's fun because it's like a movie.
46:48
He's talking about hostage scenarios that he was in and how
46:52
as a negotiator, these like tools and tactics in which you
46:57
negotiate with terrorists, yes, can apply to everyday life.
47:00
And one of his principles was around like leaning in and like
47:05
when you know, like when you know, there's a situation where
47:08
like the person that you're negotiating with is like not
47:10
going to budge or going to be pretty like not happy about said
47:14
situation about the fact that you have not done a large scale
47:16
percent or the fact that you want them to release the
47:18
hostages that they are holding captive because they're pissed
47:20
off. You're like calling out there
47:22
like I know, or like just basically what you said, I'm not
47:26
even going to say as eloquently as you did, but it's like, yeah,
47:29
I've not done a large scale event.
47:31
And here are all the things that I that I that make me excited
47:34
and ready to do that. And so it's like, OK, *** like
47:38
hostage person. Like I know you're really upset
47:40
right now and that's why you're holding on to these people.
47:43
And like, you know, that I really need these people to be
47:45
with. Let's just call it out that like
47:47
dance around the backs that we all know love that yes, so we
47:53
have to read that bug it's so. Good.
47:55
It's basically everything you're saying.
47:56
Yes too. And OK, so don't.
47:59
That is such a hot tip. Don't pick the most important
48:02
thing to the. Job yeah.
48:03
And so that is like, I like how you distinguish if we're looking
48:07
at the job posting and there's these three things that they're
48:10
looking for, let's not choose one of those per say.
48:14
And your example about the rambling and communication is
48:16
perfect. And then alternatively, if
48:19
you're looking at the job posting and you know, the the
48:22
most important thing, yeah, is probably experiencing leading
48:26
something like large scale events.
48:28
Let's lean into that. And maybe in your example of the
48:31
pivot that you made in HR and perhaps you wouldn't have gotten
48:35
through the, the applicant tracking system because you
48:38
didn't have per se formal HR experience, but you got in
48:43
through knowing somebody and having a great reputation.
48:46
That's an interesting like kind of parallel perhaps too where it
48:50
probably was. Was it discussed in your
48:52
interview? Pleasure.
48:53
You didn't. You don't have this.
48:54
Let's talk about it. And you had to.
48:56
Talk. About it, basically, say what
48:58
you said, yeah, like, yeah, I can do it, though.
49:00
I've done everything. Else I've literally done, yeah,
49:02
I just haven't had the title before.
49:04
Yeah. So I would argue for that leader
49:07
large scale event example, that person could sit in the room and
49:11
present a really strong case for why they still are like
49:15
qualified for the. Job.
49:17
OK, OK. We're getting close to the end
49:20
of the interview and you're just feeling like very weird vibes
49:23
from the person. OK, How much do you think is
49:27
that? I don't even know.
49:28
This is like how long this piece of string?
49:31
But how much do you think of that as like in our heads of
49:33
like feeling nervous and excited about the interview versus being
49:37
like, I really don't think this is going well and I don't know
49:39
how to salvage? Yeah.
49:41
What does one do in that moment where you're just feeling weird?
49:45
And yeah, I don't know. How much did you read into that
49:47
too? Yeah, I would say how well do
49:50
you know yourself? So like, are you an intuitive
49:53
person? Like not everyone like to A to
49:56
an extent everyone is, yeah. But like, how intuitive are you?
49:59
Like, are you pretty bang on for other times when you're picking
50:03
up on vibes And it is the case, then like maybe you're going to
50:08
pay more attention to that if you're getting that sense in the
50:10
interview. If you're someone that just like
50:13
you find yourself creating stories often and assuming that
50:16
like people don't like you and things like that, which I'm not
50:18
making people wrong for that. But if like that is comes up for
50:21
you, then like recognize that in yourself.
50:24
Like I'm doing this right now in the interview likely, so I need
50:29
to let that go. And so in those moments, it's
50:31
kind of the same thing. Like we're both legs crossed.
50:33
Like put your feet on the ground, like adjust yourself,
50:36
take a sip of water, take a deep breath, like do those things
50:40
right. I think that is a great way to
50:43
help. In the middle.
50:44
There's like, what else you're going to do?
50:45
You can't get up and leave. No.
50:48
So, you know, stick through it, the stickiness and the like
50:52
luckiness feeling and I think breathing and yeah, keep trying
50:57
to get grounded and taking some water and taking like the 30
51:00
seconds you might need for that. Maybe the next question that
51:02
gets asked to just stop, stop at the story and just I am here for
51:08
a reason. I believe that I'm qualified for
51:10
this role and like I'm going to keep answering the questions as
51:13
best as I can. Yes.
51:15
So that's what I would do there. If you are picking up on the
51:18
vibe, you know that you like, like you can trust that like
51:22
this is probably not going well. I would say closer to the end of
51:26
the interview, I would ask like, based on all of what I've shared
51:31
with you, like is there something that I haven't
51:34
discussed with you or that I could go in one more detail to
51:38
like help ease or help you make your decision, like a version of
51:43
that. And I think you could ask that
51:44
question regardless of the vibe in the room, but I think that
51:47
gives the interview or time. So it's not like catching them
51:50
off guard in the middle of the interview when you're like, I
51:53
could sense that my response didn't really quite answer what
51:58
you were looking for. I mean you could maybe say.
52:01
Was that what you were like? If you really catch it, like was
52:03
that? Did that answer your?
52:04
Question was that on on the on the right?
52:09
Yeah, something like was that, was that what you were looking
52:11
for maybe in a more casual way? I don't know.
52:16
Otherwise at the end, I would say that you know, like I've
52:19
really enjoyed our conversation. I feel like I've been able to
52:21
share with you my career journey and some of my skills and
52:24
ability. Is there anything left that you
52:27
have in your mind about my experience or anything that I've
52:30
shared with you that you want more detail on now that we've
52:34
like had this conversation before I leave something like.
52:36
That love that's positive too versus saying like is there
52:39
anything where I didn't hit the mark or are there any question
52:42
marks like, yeah, that's a bit of a different way of putting
52:46
it. So I like that.
52:47
It's like anything else that I could elaborate on or any other
52:49
questions that I could answer to help you make this decision.
52:54
Yeah. Fantastic.
52:56
OK, I have to ask about the follow up.
52:58
You got to send the e-mail. You got to send.
53:01
Thank you. If you're Andrea, when she's 18
53:04
years old, No 22 finishing university.
53:07
Jenna. I can't wait to hear this.
53:11
I hand painted a card. Oh, that's so.
53:14
Cute. Did you get the?
53:16
Job I did. Yeah, I wore it.
53:19
First of all, it was a Oh my God, I forgot about this.
53:22
I was an intern. I was going for an internship at
53:26
DB, which is an advertising agency.
53:28
Young and Bloor. It was like big deal.
53:32
And I bought a suit from Banana Republic.
53:35
Wow. Yeah, because I thought that you
53:37
should wear a suit. And then I'm like, Oh my God.
53:39
We were like almost sweatpants to work.
53:42
But hey, we're suit was on my cottage that that following
53:46
weekend and I hand painted with watercolor.
53:48
My mom paints. So watercolored 2 cards for the
53:52
two interviewers and then hand wrote the note and then mailed
53:55
it. That's so nice.
53:57
And I also didn't know if it was OK to call them by their first
54:00
name. So, Lee Farlow, I said.
54:02
Dear was Farlow, Yes. And they love that.
54:07
But like, did they? Did you ever talk?
54:11
I should have. Oh my gosh, you should message
54:14
message and ask. Her you should.
54:15
Be like, was that like, like they were probably gonna hire me
54:18
after the interview, I'm guessing and then they got that
54:20
like where they're like lolling about it.
54:22
I don't. Know yeah did they even get it
54:24
and inter office mail? Maybe not.
54:26
Well, you know what, she did send an e-mail to thank me for
54:29
the handwritten part, which I so funny.
54:32
Anyways, I don't trust. Yeah, OK.
54:34
So, so many people actually don't send these emails.
54:38
Yes, yes, I know. I think in certain environments
54:44
like public facing jobs, they have like strict criteria around
54:50
like did you meet the competency requirements like their
54:53
checklist of things, grading you all the things.
54:57
So I think you e-mail in some people's eyes like doesn't make
55:01
a difference because you're still going to go with whoever
55:04
meets the the strict rubric of their hiring for, yeah, for like
55:09
a government may be facing job or, or public service or
55:12
whatever. So that's fair.
55:14
Although I would still argue like just thank them for their
55:17
time. I think that's positive.
55:22
Then I would say that for any other role, yes, sending a thank
55:30
you e-mail within 24 to 48 hours, it's going to keep you
55:34
top of mind for the interviewer. And I think that to me allows
55:39
them to just, yeah, keep you top of mind.
55:41
Think about the conversation shows like you care and you're
55:45
excited and then in that thank you e-mail, you can say like I
55:49
really enjoy connecting with you.
55:51
I really, I'm even more excited about the job.
55:54
I think that my experience in maybe this one particular area
55:58
that you talked about during the interview is going to would like
56:01
really be helpful for the role based on our conversation and
56:05
I'm looking forward to hearing next steps.
56:07
Yeah, so short and sweet. Yeah.
56:08
Make it personalized to the discussion.
56:10
Yes, like a little callback to something that you were speaking
56:13
about, something you learned so that it's not just generic.
56:16
But don't make it too long and don't ruminate.
56:18
Don't be like sorry about such and such, and don't be like
56:22
apologize. Just chill, thanks for your
56:24
time. Thanks.
56:25
For your time and if you don't have the e-mail address of the
56:28
hiring manager, do you get it from the recruiter or do you say
56:32
could you pass this? Along yeah, I would send an
56:34
e-mail to the recruiter and say hey, I've drafted an e-mail here
56:38
for the hiring manager. Like if you're able to pass
56:41
along this, I would really appreciate it.
56:44
Otherwise I would love their e-mail address to fix myself.
56:47
Something like that. Yeah great.
56:48
But just like make it 1 e-mail so that they don't.
56:50
You don't have to go back and forth with them.
56:52
Yeah, it's good one. Yeah.
56:54
Love that. And then you own the interview.
56:57
And then you own. You've owned it just like
57:00
absolutely owned it. You came back from rambling,
57:03
yes, you talked about the fact that you were fired, laid off.
57:08
You took a 10 year career break and came back and you were able
57:11
to talk about like we've we've hit all the situations, anything
57:13
else that you're like, these are the things that kind of come up
57:16
but. Yeah.
57:17
I think the last thing I would say is often people ask like
57:20
what questions do I have interviewers?
57:23
And so I would just keep in mind to not ask anything that is
57:27
already in the job posting or about the organization that you
57:31
can look up and be resourceful and find on your own.
57:34
I would also not ask the question.
57:37
So I'm telling you the opposite, but I would not ask the
57:40
question. Like how could I have done
57:43
better in this interview? Like let's not put them on the
57:47
spot like so that I would not ask and I wouldn't ask any
57:51
questions that are like interview type of questions to
57:56
the interviewer. Like oftentimes people will
57:59
sideline. Can you tell me about a time
58:01
when you had an employee that you know you weren't seeing eye
58:05
to eye? Like how did you handle that?
58:07
Like that is not the time and space for it.
58:10
I would say that if you were truly looking to understand more
58:14
information like that, that is a question that you could ask at
58:18
the end. So you get presented an offer
58:21
and now you're wondering, OK, I've I like the company, I like
58:25
the job, I appreciated the conversation, but I have some
58:28
like nitty gritty things that I wanna know.
58:30
Ask to have another conversation, like a casual
58:34
conversation where you can have that type of like Q&A with the
58:38
hiring manager or if there's someone else in the organization
58:41
you want to talk to, make those requests.
58:43
But I wouldn't do it in like the interview that is set for you to
58:47
be asking, like for you to be telling them why you're the best
58:50
person for the role. Even if it's the final
58:53
interview. I think you can leave the
58:56
conversation with like, I've really enjoyed this
58:59
conversation. I have a couple of things that
59:00
are top of mind for me, but I think I can save those for our
59:03
next conversation when we move to the next step or something
59:06
like that. Yeah.
59:07
And then in that conversation, what I would be wanting to know
59:11
is more around, like, maybe you ask a question about how the
59:15
team works together. Maybe you ask a question about,
59:18
like, what do you wish that you knew sooner?
59:21
OK, so one of my former bosses, she used to say like the best
59:25
question she's ever heard is a version of this, which is what
59:28
is something that you wish that you knew sooner when you started
59:31
this job or started working at this company that would have
59:35
allowed you to get into action more quickly?
59:38
Cool. I love that question so much.
59:41
But do you wish that you knew sooner in starting this role or
59:46
that working at this company so that you could have gotten,
59:48
like, moved into action sooner? Yeah.
59:50
So basically, like this person wants to work hard.
59:53
Yeah. And they want to know.
59:56
Yeah, like how can I hit the ground running?
59:58
Yeah, right. I love that so much.
1:00:01
Because they could take anything.
1:00:02
They could say, actually I should have just waited.
1:00:04
I should have just been more of a fly on the wall for the first
1:00:06
three months. Or they could say, you know, I
1:00:09
would have gone for coffees with people on the team.
1:00:11
Like I would have built those really like that's so they could
1:00:14
say anything. They really could say anything
1:00:15
and then I think it creates some dialogue to just have a
1:00:18
conversation. And then the final question,
1:00:20
which we've touched on already, I would say like, is there
1:00:23
anything else that I can share with you about my experience
1:00:25
that would help you make your decision?
1:00:27
Yeah, I think it's great. Yes, and it's important.
1:00:30
I think that's everything you just touched on is really
1:00:32
important. And I think it's important to
1:00:33
remember that if you're still being interviewed, even if it's
1:00:36
a final round and it feels like you've got the job, there's
1:00:39
still a decision to be made. Like if you're in an interview,
1:00:43
they could still not give you an offer.
1:00:46
Yeah. So don't assume that you're
1:00:48
you've got it in the bag. Yeah, like still treated us.
1:00:51
And so don't also use that then as the point to be like, is
1:00:54
there wiggle room on the salary? They talk benefits.
1:00:58
Like I'm not an interview coach, but like I'm always cautioning
1:01:01
people to be very mindful of those questions.
1:01:03
Yeah, those are offered. Like get the offer.
1:01:06
Make them fall in love with you first.
1:01:07
Get the offer. And then I actually listened to
1:01:10
a podcast once and they said, like, all their eggs are in your
1:01:12
basket when they make you an offer.
1:01:14
And then when you're when you're requesting that conversation,
1:01:17
like you said, I love that. Like, hey, could I have another
1:01:19
conversation? That means that person's already
1:01:21
asked you on like, I asked you to get married.
1:01:23
They proposed marriage to you. So you know that you're not just
1:01:27
having a conversation in that moment, but you're still a
1:01:30
question mark. Yeah.
1:01:31
Like, no, they actually like, they really want you.
1:01:33
So they're going to be excited to have another conversation
1:01:35
because you might be on their team.
1:01:36
Yes. And then often, a lot of times
1:01:39
salary is not, it depends on how big the company is.
1:01:42
But a lot of cases the salary is not negotiated with the hiring
1:01:45
manager like it's their budget. So there needs to be a
1:01:49
conversation with them, but somebody else is having that
1:01:52
conversation with them. You're having a conversation
1:01:55
likely with HR or a talent acquisition team member about
1:01:58
salary and they're doing the like they're brokering a deal
1:02:01
if. Yeah.
1:02:02
So that's the person who should be asked those questions.
1:02:05
OK, If you have questions about more about the job, the team
1:02:08
leadership and you weren't able to uncover that in the
1:02:11
interview, then it's like, OK, I've got my offer.
1:02:13
We've landed on the salary. All those things look really
1:02:16
good. I'm hoping that I can just have
1:02:18
an 30 extra minutes or 15 minutes with the hiring manager
1:02:22
just to ask a few more questions while I like before I sign my
1:02:26
letter. Before I make this decision,
1:02:27
yeah. And then we're like, OK, yeah.
1:02:30
Oh my gosh, I love that. Yeah, shut up.
1:02:36
It was so good. I hope to not personally be
1:02:40
interviewing anytime. Soon.
1:02:44
But I friggin love interviews. I think that's such a powerful,
1:02:48
beautiful way to start a relationship.
1:02:50
And I think that hopefully, like hopefully people feel inspired
1:02:53
and excited by this conversation and know that nerves, like
1:02:56
hopefully people are also like remembering that like nerves are
1:02:58
excitement as well. But now you're going to feel
1:03:01
more equipped. You're going to own the
1:03:02
interview. Hashtag own the interview.
1:03:04
Hashtag on the interview. At on the interview and I just
1:03:10
so appreciate you like just taking us through this journey.
1:03:14
It like makes me want to interview but not, you know,
1:03:16
yeah, which is probably how a lot of people feel.
1:03:18
They're excited about what's on the other side of the interview.
1:03:20
But this is this in the red resume are like very big hurdles
1:03:24
and blockers. So yeah, it's OK.
1:03:26
Everyone's got this. Yeah.
1:03:29
In terms of interviewing you, I asked you this in Part 1 around
1:03:32
like, what are you still trying to figure out in life and
1:03:34
whatever your own life. Yeah.
1:03:35
In terms of interviews and navigating owning an interview,
1:03:40
what would you say? OK, what would you say most
1:03:43
people are still trying to figure out in order to own an
1:03:45
interview, what is like a very common thing that people would
1:03:48
be? I'm still trying to.
1:03:51
Figure out I'm trying to figure out working on.
1:03:54
Maybe like the right amount to prep?
1:03:57
Like not over preparing where you've actually created more
1:04:01
like stress or anxiety for yourself.
1:04:05
And then like the flip side of that, maybe not preparing enough
1:04:08
and then not sharing like examples that are actually best
1:04:14
to showcase who you are and why you're the best person for the.
1:04:17
Job love it. Cool.
1:04:19
Didn't expect that. OK, love it.
1:04:22
I so appreciate your time in Part 1 and Part 2.
1:04:24
If you haven't listened to Part 1, it's Jenna.
1:04:26
It doesn't really matter if you listen to these episodes out of
1:04:28
order because Part 1 was Jenna's story.
1:04:30
Her beautiful career. Don't know flowering.
1:04:34
Oh my God, I think we're going loopy.
1:04:35
We're all like probably hour 2 at this point, but tennis career
1:04:39
story coming mother and now the owning of the interview.
1:04:44
Thank you so much. You're going to help so many
1:04:46
people with this. I appreciate you.
1:04:48
Thank you so much. Thank you so much for listening
1:04:54
and since you made it this far, please share this episode with a
1:04:56
fellow parent who you love, respect, and want to support.
1:05:01
And while you're at it, hit me up on Instagram at All Figured
1:05:04
Out. Andrea, I would love to meet you
1:05:06
and hear what you are trying to figure out these days.