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CLASSIC: I Modi: The Scandalous Erotic Blockbuster Banned By The Vatican · Ridiculous History

• 0:00
  Speaker 1: Fellow ridiculous historians, you may have heard about the Vatican
• 0:04
  Speaker 1: from earlier. Turns out they like to ban stuff.
• 0:07
  Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, they're big fans of prohibition. They're real yuckers
• 0:11
  Speaker 2: of yums.
• 0:12
  Speaker 1: Yeah, so back in the day, we looked into a
• 0:17
  Speaker 1: story that seemed very strange. It involves a master engraver
• 0:23
  Speaker 1: named Marcantonio Ramondi, who... put in some saucy, explicit art
• 0:32
  Speaker 1: throughout the papal palace.
• 0:34
  Speaker 3: Boy, did he ever. Particularly raunchy art, in fact. The
• 0:41
  Speaker 3: church was so scandalized that it had to take action.
• 0:44
  Speaker 3: Let's find out what they did.
• 0:48
  Speaker 1: Ridiculous History is a production of iHeartRadio. Thank you. Welcome
• 1:16
  Speaker 1: to the show, Ridiculous Historians. Thank you so much for
• 1:19
  Speaker 1: tuning in. We have a bit of a disclaimer, I think,
• 1:25
  Speaker 1: or a bit of a thing we must say for
• 1:28
  Speaker 1: the beginning of this episode.
• 1:29
  Speaker 3: Ben, is this like a trigger warning or no? Is
• 1:31
  Speaker 3: that different? Is that the same as a disclaimer?
• 1:33
  Speaker 1: I guess a trigger warning is a genre of a disclaimer, Noel.
• 1:37
  Speaker 1: But yeah, either way, it's a thing you have to
• 1:39
  Speaker 1: say at the top. This episode, we are kind of
• 1:42
  Speaker 1: a family show, you know, you and I, we're in
• 1:45
  Speaker 1: And our super producer, Paul Mission Control Deccant. As well
• 1:53
  Speaker 1: as our super producer, Casey Pegram.
• 1:56
  Speaker 2: Who has returned, as it turns out, from his secret
• 1:58
  Speaker 2: life as an international criminal?
• 2:00
  Speaker 1: Spy? What is he exactly again?
• 2:03
  Speaker 3: I keep getting the stories mixed up.
• 2:04
  Speaker 1: He is simply LeBouche.
• 2:05
  Speaker 3: He is LeBouche.
• 2:07
  Speaker 1: So, you know, all of us on the show, including
• 2:10
  Speaker 1: our producer, Maya Cole. Give it up for her. It's
• 2:13
  Speaker 1: her first day. Wave to her there. All of us
• 2:17
  Speaker 1: are generally like PG people, maybe PG-13. This is not
• 2:22
  Speaker 1: a hard-hitting, mature-themed show.
• 2:25
  Speaker 3: You mean on the show?
• 2:26
  Speaker 1: On this show.
• 2:27
  Speaker 3: Well, in our personal lives, we can— Oh, my gosh.
• 2:29
  Speaker 3: It goes off the rails.
• 2:30
  Speaker 1: Oh, wow. Very quickly. But today's show, No Fooling— Does
• 2:36
  Speaker 1: encounter some things that may not be appropriate for all listeners.
• 2:43
  Speaker 1: So if you're one of the very, very kind teachers,
• 2:46
  Speaker 1: whoever uses our show for your students.
• 2:51
  Speaker 3: Surely that's not a thing.
• 2:52
  Speaker 1: I think a couple times. Yeah. Okay. But if you
• 2:55
  Speaker 1: are one of those teachers, listen through the entirety of
• 2:59
  Speaker 1: this episode before playing it for you.
• 3:01
  Speaker 2: Your students or if you're some kind of prude and
• 3:03
  Speaker 2: prone to pearl clutching um i would also maybe skip
• 3:07
  Speaker 2: this one or maybe give it a go and it'll
• 3:09
  Speaker 2: make you grow up a.
• 3:10
  Speaker 1: Little bit you'll have you'll have that uh aladdin a
• 3:13
  Speaker 1: whole new world moment right that's my favorite part of
• 3:16
  Speaker 1: that movie it is such an amazing movie overall are
• 3:19
  Speaker 1: you gonna see the live version i.
• 3:21
  Speaker 2: Gotta say that the physics of it absolute garbage They
• 3:23
  Speaker 2: would be torn to shreds or they would like suffocate
• 3:25
  Speaker 2: in the atmosphere.
• 3:26
  Speaker 3: On the carpet. Give me a break.
• 3:27
  Speaker 1: I always thought the carpet sort of created this field.
• 3:30
  Speaker 3: That is some magical thinking, Ben. I like that.
• 3:33
  Speaker 1: It's a story about magic.
• 3:34
  Speaker 2: That is quality suspension of disbelief, my friend.
• 3:36
  Speaker 3: Well done.
• 3:37
  Speaker 1: Speaking of suspension of disbelief.
• 3:39
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 3:41
  Speaker 1: That's a weird segue. But today's episode addresses a little
• 3:46
  Speaker 1: bit of hypocrisy. in the Catholic Church addresses something that
• 3:52
  Speaker 1: you and I both, I think, found fascinating, but maybe
• 3:57
  Speaker 1: not entirely surprising.
• 3:58
  Speaker 3: Yeah, possibly a little titillating. Yes, yes.
• 4:01
  Speaker 1: Just a little. A bit of Twitter patient.
• 4:03
  Speaker 3: Indeed. We should get right to it.
• 4:05
  Speaker 2: Today's episode is, I don't know, you could kind of,
• 4:08
  Speaker 2: this is a bit of a misnomer to refer to
• 4:10
  Speaker 2: it like this, but I still like it. The banned
• 4:12
  Speaker 2: 16th century pornographic sex guide made in, you guessed it,
• 4:16
  Speaker 2: the Vatican.
• 4:17
  Speaker 1: True story. True story, folks. Yes, this is entirely non-fictional.
• 4:25
  Speaker 1: So nowadays, when people think of the pope, right, the
• 4:31
  Speaker 1: head of the Catholic Church, we typically are going to
• 4:36
  Speaker 1: think of maybe someone who's kind of isolated, a kindly
• 4:42
  Speaker 1: older man in white with a unique set of hats. Mm-hmm.
• 4:47
  Speaker 1: But in centuries leading up to the modern day, popes
• 4:52
  Speaker 1: were somewhat salacious or what's that other word? We were salubrious.
• 4:57
  Speaker 3: Salubrious?
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  Speaker 1: Yes, yes.
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  Speaker 2: Well, I mean, you know, here's the thing, too. There's
• 5:01
  Speaker 2: a public facing popeness and then there's the private facing popeness.
• 5:05
  Speaker 2: I made up the word popeness just now, by the way.
• 5:07
  Speaker 1: I thought it was good.
• 5:08
  Speaker 3: I think I'm okay with it. But think about it.
• 5:10
  Speaker 3: I mean, we know this from all the exposés that
• 5:12
  Speaker 3: have been going on.
• 5:13
  Speaker 2: About the Catholic Church for decades now and beyond, where,
• 5:17
  Speaker 2: as it turns out, some of these kindly older gentlemen
• 5:20
  Speaker 2: in their robes and whatnot were actually not so kindly treated.
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  Speaker 1: At all.
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  Speaker 2: And were doing pretty terrible things behind closed doors when
• 5:27
  Speaker 2: they thought they could get away with it.
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  Speaker 3: This is not that necessarily.
• 5:30
  Speaker 2: This is a little more just being a little on
• 5:33
  Speaker 2: the naughty side and perhaps commissioning, as legend would have it.
• 5:36
  Speaker 3: There's different versions of the story.
• 5:38
  Speaker 2: Some pornographic art in a particular space in the Vatican
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  Speaker 2: that is now referred.
• 5:44
  Speaker 1: To as the Sala di Constantino.
• 5:47
  Speaker 3: Well done, Ben. What an authentico accento.
• 5:50
  Speaker 1: Thank you. Do you remember that earlier conversation? This is
• 5:54
  Speaker 1: a point you brought up, Noel, that I thought was
• 5:56
  Speaker 1: very interesting where I can't remember whether this was on
• 6:00
  Speaker 1: air or whether we were just hanging out after work.
• 6:03
  Speaker 1: But you said to me, you're like, Ben, you notice
• 6:07
  Speaker 1: that we're always very careful not to stereotype people or
• 6:10
  Speaker 1: do unfair caricatures except for Italian people.
• 6:14
  Speaker 2: And apparently Australians. We got an email where people were like, hey,
• 6:17
  Speaker 2: I really like the show. But all you ever do
• 6:20
  Speaker 2: talk about my home country is bad Australian accents and
• 6:23
  Speaker 2: genitalia references.
• 6:24
  Speaker 3: I believe little Australia.
• 6:26
  Speaker 2: But that's neither here nor there. But, yeah, we do
• 6:29
  Speaker 2: try our best to be thoughtful and courteous.
• 6:33
  Speaker 1: So if there is anything that sounds like a stereotypical
• 6:36
  Speaker 1: or Italian accent or caricature thereof, It is simply our
• 6:41
  Speaker 1: bad pronunciation.
• 6:42
  Speaker 2: Yeah, and feel free to yell at us. So the
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  Speaker 2: Sala di Constantino is one of the largest rooms in
• 6:48
  Speaker 2: the Vatican. And at this point in time, it depicts
• 6:51
  Speaker 2: kind of fresco paintings of the first Roman emperor to
• 6:57
  Speaker 2: convert to Christianity, Constantine. And it is believed by some,
• 7:03
  Speaker 2: though I've not found any unequivocal evidence for this, that
• 7:07
  Speaker 2: those were painted on top of some rather salacious, let's
• 7:12
  Speaker 2: call it Renaissance pin-up type paintings, right?
• 7:17
  Speaker 1: Right, yeah. The way this story goes is that once
• 7:22
  Speaker 1: upon a time, there were a series of very explicit
• 7:30
  Speaker 1: paintings of lovers, historical figures, throughout history in explicit... explicit
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  Speaker 1: uh romantic positions.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah and i mean more so than just depictions like
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  Speaker 2: they were almost intended to be like a guidebook sort
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  Speaker 2: of like the kama sutra or something like that and
• 7:50
  Speaker 2: i think there were how many of them were there
• 7:52
  Speaker 2: been 16 yes there were 16 right 16 for the
• 7:55
  Speaker 2: 16th century that's totally why they did that and um
• 7:59
  Speaker 2: we'll get to this in a little bit but Raphael
• 8:03
  Speaker 2: was one of the most well-renowned artists of the time
• 8:06
  Speaker 2: and adorned many a room in the Vatican with his
• 8:09
  Speaker 2: incredibly elaborate, what would you call the style of Raphael, Ben?
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  Speaker 1: He was the, he's considered the architect of the high Renaissance,
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  Speaker 1: full name Raphael Osanzio da Urbino. And he was born
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  Speaker 1: in 1483, passed away at the age of 37 in 1520.
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  Speaker 1: allegedly after a night of wild passion.
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  Speaker 3: Wild passion, yeah.
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  Speaker 2: All signs point to Raphael being a bit of a
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  Speaker 2: horny boy and keeping company with some others of that ilk.
• 8:40
  Speaker 2: There was sort of a cabal of these sort of
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  Speaker 2: lechy older men that kicked it in this particular palazzo
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  Speaker 2: that belonged to a man who was a patron of
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  Speaker 2: the arts.
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  Speaker 3: By the name of Agostino Chigi. Uh, Chigi? Is it
• 8:55
  Speaker 3: like Gili? Chigi. Chigi. I'm going to do a hard G.
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  Speaker 3: What do you think?
• 8:59
  Speaker 1: I think it was a very smart move to put
• 9:01
  Speaker 1: both of those pronunciations out there.
• 9:03
  Speaker 3: Yeah, so yell at me about the wrong one and
• 9:05
  Speaker 3: praise me for the correct one.
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  Speaker 1: I feel like this is a thing for you.
• 9:07
  Speaker 2: It is.
• 9:08
  Speaker 1: It's going to be okay.
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  Speaker 3: You think so?
• 9:09
  Speaker 1: I think it'll be okay.
• 9:10
  Speaker 3: Dude, the ire of the internet never ceases to terrify me.
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  Speaker 1: Well, it's spelled C-H-I-G-I.
• 9:16
  Speaker 3: C-H-I-G-I.
• 9:17
  Speaker 1: Banker to the Vatican, right?
• 9:18
  Speaker 2: Banker to the Vatican, like Iron Bank kind of dude, right? Serious,
• 9:22
  Speaker 2: like power behind the purse to the Vatican, one of
• 9:25
  Speaker 2: the most powerful institutions in the world. And he would have,
• 9:29
  Speaker 2: I don't know, I've heard them referred to as wild
• 9:32
  Speaker 2: garden parties. And he owned a palatial estate by the
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  Speaker 2: Tiber River and had a vast collection of erotic art,
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  Speaker 2: including a particularly lewd statue of Greek god and fellow
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  Speaker 2: horny boy, Pan, or Puck.
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  Speaker 1: Right.
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  Speaker 3: Likely anatomically correct, I think, is.
• 9:52
  Speaker 1: What we're getting at here. Despite his day job, his
• 9:56
  Speaker 1: private life was— extraordinarily hedonistic. Yeah. There's a fair way.
• 10:00
  Speaker 3: To say this.
• 10:01
  Speaker 2: And he and his pals were considered libertarian, but not
• 10:03
  Speaker 2: the way we think of libertarianism today in terms of,
• 10:06
  Speaker 2: you know, being pro-weed and anti-government.
• 10:10
  Speaker 1: In any sense, right? Yeah. Yeah. This means that they
• 10:14
  Speaker 1: were in contrast to the official doctrine or public view
• 10:19
  Speaker 1: of the Catholic Church. They were very, let's say, open, right?
• 10:25
  Speaker 1: They are at this point. kind of polyamorous. Swingers. Yeah,
• 10:30
  Speaker 1: they're seeking all this. They're seeking the carnal pleasures. It's
• 10:36
  Speaker 1: similar to Hugh Hefner's Playboy Mansion. This is a surprisingly
• 10:40
  Speaker 1: apt comparison.
• 10:41
  Speaker 3: They likely had a grotto in this particular estate as well,
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  Speaker 3: I would imagine.
• 10:45
  Speaker 2: Yes.
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  Speaker 1: And they had a lot of guests amongst the upper
• 10:49
  Speaker 1: echelons of society at the time. One regular guest was
• 10:52
  Speaker 1: a writer named Pietro Aretino, and He described the erotic
• 10:57
  Speaker 1: art in this famous villa by saying, why shouldn't the
• 11:01
  Speaker 1: eye see what delights it most?
• 11:03
  Speaker 2: Exactly, because the Vatican was infamous for covering up nude sculptures.
• 11:08
  Speaker 2: Any kind of depiction of the male nude form or
• 11:11
  Speaker 2: female nude form, they would require the artist to drape it.
• 11:14
  Speaker 2: Like I believe Michelangelo's– some of his famous nudes were
• 11:19
  Speaker 2: required to be added onto with additional material to cover
• 11:22
  Speaker 2: them up.
• 11:23
  Speaker 1: Kind of like the Statue of Liberty originally had. Yeah,
• 11:25
  Speaker 1: or like the fig leaves. Exactly.
• 11:27
  Speaker 3: Oh, that's right. I totally forgot about that. Or like
• 11:29
  Speaker 3: the famous fig leaves of Adam and Eve and all
• 11:31
  Speaker 3: that stuff.
• 11:31
  Speaker 1: Totally.
• 11:32
  Speaker 2: But I think that Artino very accurately summed up what
• 11:36
  Speaker 2: this whole kind of cabal of dudes with their whole
• 11:39
  Speaker 2: like kind of philosophy of life kind of Fidelio kind
• 11:43
  Speaker 2: of vibe was all about.
• 11:45
  Speaker 3: Why shouldn't the eye see what delights it most? Exactly.
• 11:47
  Speaker 1: So. In his bedroom, the banker, Chigi, had a fresco
• 11:56
  Speaker 1: of Alexander the Great in a sexually explicit position with
• 12:02
  Speaker 1: his wife, Roxanne, and Raphael himself. Like, Raphael is famous
• 12:07
  Speaker 1: at this time.
• 12:07
  Speaker 3: Big time.
• 12:08
  Speaker 1: He has a team of people working under him, so
• 12:12
  Speaker 1: it's a big deal that he himself paints some of
• 12:14
  Speaker 1: the most famous frescoes in the villa. But according to
• 12:20
  Speaker 1: his biographer... an author named Vasari, Raphael himself couldn't work
• 12:26
  Speaker 1: properly in this environment because Vasari says the guy had
• 12:31
  Speaker 1: a sex addiction. So Raphael's lover at the time had
• 12:36
  Speaker 1: to be given a bedroom in the location. So he
• 12:40
  Speaker 1: would paint and then go fool around and then go
• 12:43
  Speaker 1: back and paint, rinse and repeat. And this, according again
• 12:48
  Speaker 1: to his biographer, is what is what actually this is
• 12:51
  Speaker 1: the situation that led to his death at the early
• 12:53
  Speaker 1: age of 37. And he left when he passed away.
• 12:58
  Speaker 1: He left his his business, his work. to his most
• 13:02
  Speaker 1: talented assistant, a guy named Giulio Romano or Giulio Romano.
• 13:07
  Speaker 2: Let's think about him the way we might think of
• 13:09
  Speaker 2: a modern street artist today, right? A lot of these
• 13:11
  Speaker 2: folks are known as the, you know, power behind the
• 13:14
  Speaker 2: throne and like the style guide of like this.
• 13:17
  Speaker 3: You know, everything associated with this person's brand.
• 13:19
  Speaker 2: But everyone from like a shepherd fairy to likely a
• 13:22
  Speaker 2: Banksy or whatever has like teams of people working with
• 13:25
  Speaker 2: them to help them recreate their work and like do
• 13:27
  Speaker 2: it in different locations, especially when it comes to like
• 13:29
  Speaker 2: reproducible stuff. And so this assistant was kind of his
• 13:33
  Speaker 2: right-hand man and could literally take the baton and kind
• 13:36
  Speaker 2: of like keep the business going after his, you know,
• 13:40
  Speaker 2: what would you call it?
• 13:41
  Speaker 3: His master?
• 13:42
  Speaker 2: No.
• 13:44
  Speaker 1: His boss?
• 13:44
  Speaker 3: I guess his boss, yeah. His mentor? His mentor. After he,
• 13:48
  Speaker 3: you know, had a very erotic death.
• 13:51
  Speaker 1: A very erotic death. The story of Raphael. Yes. And
• 13:55
  Speaker 1: so now this guy is the successor here. Romano is
• 14:00
  Speaker 1: in charge of this team. He has inherited this. One
• 14:04
  Speaker 1: of the connections he inherits is a printmaker named Marcantonio Ramondi.
• 14:10
  Speaker 2: I want to backtrack here just slightly. Not backtrack really,
• 14:13
  Speaker 2: but this is where the story diverges a little bit.
• 14:15
  Speaker 2: I've seen a couple spots that say, okay, he was
• 14:19
  Speaker 2: hired to paint that Constantine room, which was considered one
• 14:24
  Speaker 2: of the Raphael rooms in the Vatican. Because Raphael had
• 14:27
  Speaker 2: done many of them, but then this room was left
• 14:30
  Speaker 2: uncompleted when he had passed away. So his assistant was
• 14:33
  Speaker 2: supposed to go in there and finish it. I've seen that.
• 14:36
  Speaker 2: And then I know Pope Leo X was going to
• 14:39
  Speaker 2: make Raphael like an honorary high church official because of
• 14:43
  Speaker 2: all his work that he had done. It's really funny
• 14:45
  Speaker 2: considering that he was a known sex addict and kind
• 14:48
  Speaker 2: of lech. But that didn't come to fruition because he,
• 14:51
  Speaker 2: of course, passed away. But whoever employed his assistant to
• 14:55
  Speaker 2: supposedly paint this room. The assistant got irritated at him,
• 14:59
  Speaker 2: legend says, and he instead decided to paint these 16
• 15:03
  Speaker 2: erotic scenes on these panels.
• 15:05
  Speaker 1: Right.
• 15:05
  Speaker 3: That's one version of the story.
• 15:06
  Speaker 1: Yeah, and there are a couple of different versions. So
• 15:09
  Speaker 1: before Raphael's death, just to rewind in time a bit,
• 15:13
  Speaker 1: in 1516, a guy named Cardinal Bibiana commissions Raphael to
• 15:17
  Speaker 1: decorate His personal bathroom with these nude nymphs bathing while
• 15:24
  Speaker 1: very anatomically correct satyrs are spying on them. And this
• 15:29
  Speaker 1: only flies because the cardinal's bathroom is considered a private place, right?
• 15:35
  Speaker 1: So these various works of art, explicit sexual art, were
• 15:39
  Speaker 1: never meant to be a matter of public discussion or
• 15:43
  Speaker 1: even public knowledge, right? It goes– it's the same way
• 15:46
  Speaker 1: with the erotic frescoes on the walls of the Sala
• 15:49
  Speaker 1: di Constantino. Whether they were commissioned or drawn out of spite, right,
• 15:54
  Speaker 1: that's the big divergence on the story. They were either
• 15:56
  Speaker 1: commissioned on purpose or drawn as kind of a troll.
• 16:00
  Speaker 3: Well, it is a divergence of the story.
• 16:02
  Speaker 2: But then I've also seen a version of the story
• 16:04
  Speaker 2: where the Vatican doesn't come into it at all. Like
• 16:06
  Speaker 2: where this guy just drew these himself and then had them–
• 16:10
  Speaker 2: And then had the printmaker– Had the printmaker disseminate them.
• 16:14
  Speaker 2: Because that's where we get into more of the idea
• 16:16
  Speaker 2: of this thing as this collection of nudes as being
• 16:19
  Speaker 2: the first form of widely circulated pornography.
• 16:23
  Speaker 1: Right. The 16 postures as they came to be known.
• 16:28
  Speaker 1: So the printer, Marcantonio Raimondi, engraves and prints– these explicit
• 16:36
  Speaker 1: illustrations of sex acts drawn by Romano, and he publishes
• 16:41
  Speaker 1: this in 1524 under the title I, Modi, which translates
• 16:46
  Speaker 1: as The Positions. And this is not erotica. This is not,
• 16:51
  Speaker 1: you know, some sort of sensitive exploration of the human
• 16:54
  Speaker 1: aesthetic visually. This is pornography.
• 16:57
  Speaker 3: Yeah, dude, I'm looking at them right now. They are really.
• 17:00
  Speaker 1: They're NSFW.
• 17:01
  Speaker 3: They really, really are.
• 17:03
  Speaker 2: If you want to get a look at them, If
• 17:04
  Speaker 2: you're really interested, you can go. There's an article on
• 17:06
  Speaker 2: dangerousminds.net that has all of them.
• 17:09
  Speaker 3: Actually, that's not true. We'll get to this.
• 17:11
  Speaker 2: They ultimately are lost to time. But the idea of
• 17:13
  Speaker 2: what they are was recreated because it created like a
• 17:17
  Speaker 2: whole new genre of stuff, you know, which is like
• 17:19
  Speaker 2: let's depict sex acts in as frank a way as
• 17:22
  Speaker 2: humanly possible, often with satyrs and mythical creatures as well.
• 17:26
  Speaker 2: So you're going to see a lot of that stuff.
• 17:27
  Speaker 2: So if you want to catch that yourself, it is NSFW,
• 17:30
  Speaker 2: as Ben said. You can go to dangerousminds.net. And the
• 17:32
  Speaker 2: headline is An 18th Century Guide to Sex Positions. So
• 17:34
  Speaker 2: you can just search for that right there.
• 17:36
  Speaker 3: Great site.
• 17:36
  Speaker 1: And I'm sure many people have just probably run into
• 17:39
  Speaker 1: that earlier. Sure.
• 17:41
  Speaker 3: Why wouldn't you have?
• 17:41
  Speaker 1: Why would you not? So according, let's go back to
• 17:44
  Speaker 1: this divergence in the story. According to Lynn Launer, who
• 17:47
  Speaker 1: is an art historian focusing on the Renaissance in Italy,
• 17:52
  Speaker 1: in 1523, Giulio began the decoration of the Sala di
• 17:56
  Speaker 1: Constantino in the Vatican. And the pope at the time,
• 18:00
  Speaker 1: Clement VII, was tardy in paying the bill.
• 18:04
  Speaker 3: Hence the beef.
• 18:05
  Speaker 1: And hence the beef. And so then he says, all right,
• 18:09
  Speaker 1: you know what? I'll keep working, but I'm going to
• 18:11
  Speaker 1: draw these 16 postures.
• 18:13
  Speaker 3: That doesn't make sense. That would be a real risk
• 18:16
  Speaker 3: to do that. Don't you think?
• 18:18
  Speaker 2: Do you think he felt like totally above the law
• 18:20
  Speaker 2: that he could like essentially graffiti this guy's walls with
• 18:25
  Speaker 2: what would be considered filth? You know, because let's not
• 18:28
  Speaker 2: forget the collected versions of these.
• 18:30
  Speaker 3: We're jumping around in time a little bit.
• 18:31
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 18:32
  Speaker 2: Ultimately end up getting the printer, whose name is escaping
• 18:36
  Speaker 2: me now, Ben.
• 18:37
  Speaker 3: Who's the printer?
• 18:37
  Speaker 1: Raimondi.
• 18:38
  Speaker 3: Raimondi. Getting him thrown in jail by the pope.
• 18:42
  Speaker 2: So the idea of maybe some of these nudes existing
• 18:46
  Speaker 2: behind closed doors, like you said, Ben, in private, maybe
• 18:49
  Speaker 2: wouldn't have caused the pope to totally go full ham
• 18:53
  Speaker 2: on it and trying to censor it out. But once
• 18:55
  Speaker 2: it starts being disseminated, you know, in printed form, it's
• 19:01
  Speaker 2: like something that has to be.
• 19:02
  Speaker 1: Squashed, right? Let's talk a little bit about Pope Clement
• 19:06
  Speaker 1: VII as well. He's a real peach. So he was
• 19:09
  Speaker 1: pope from 1523 to 1534. He was known for being
• 19:11
  Speaker 1: a bit of a flip-flopper. He didn't really keep his word.
• 19:20
  Speaker 1: He would make and break alliances with France, Spain, and
• 19:24
  Speaker 1: Germany over the course of his papacy. He was inclined
• 19:30
  Speaker 1: to changing his political views to match those of whomever
• 19:33
  Speaker 1: was the most powerful and wealthy at the time. And
• 19:37
  Speaker 1: as a result, his critics said that he was not
• 19:40
  Speaker 1: to be trusted. So he was the sort of– at
• 19:43
  Speaker 1: least from what we can tell historically, he was the
• 19:46
  Speaker 1: sort of person who would attempt to swindle people out
• 19:49
  Speaker 1: of money. which is where this whole thing begins. If
• 19:53
  Speaker 1: you trust the historians who say that the postures arrive
• 19:57
  Speaker 1: out of spite. When the 16 postures are published, as
• 20:01
  Speaker 1: you said, Raimondi is thrown in jail by Clement VII.
• 20:05
  Speaker 1: And because the printmaker has some powerful friends, He is
• 20:09
  Speaker 1: eventually released, but you can't screw the lid back on
• 20:13
  Speaker 1: Pandora's jar here.
• 20:14
  Speaker 3: Oh, no. It's out.
• 20:16
  Speaker 2: Not only did they not screw the lid back on
• 20:17
  Speaker 2: Pandora's jar, they bespoke the jar even further.
• 20:20
  Speaker 1: Right.
• 20:21
  Speaker 2: Because remember that guy, Arantino, we talked about, who had
• 20:24
  Speaker 2: that fantastic quote about give the eyes what they want
• 20:27
  Speaker 2: or whatever? He really wanted to double down and lean
• 20:30
  Speaker 2: into that because he composed 16 absolutely filthy, raunchy sonnets
• 20:37
  Speaker 2: that described– Each of the scenes in poetically graphic detail.
• 20:42
  Speaker 2: And in an introduction to this book, the new edition,
• 20:48
  Speaker 2: this is sort of an incantation to the reader.
• 20:50
  Speaker 1: An invocation. Yes, exactly.
• 20:52
  Speaker 3: Invocation of the muses of raunchiness. Quote, come view this,
• 20:57
  Speaker 3: you who like to f * * *. Okay.
• 21:00
  Speaker 1: Okay.
• 21:01
  Speaker 2: Without being disturbed in that sweet enterprise. I would have
• 21:05
  Speaker 2: added a second sweet. I would have been that sweet,
• 21:07
  Speaker 2: sweet enterprise.
• 21:09
  Speaker 1: Well, we have the benefit of hindsight in retrospect. Editorialism.
• 21:14
  Speaker 1: So this is a blockbuster.
• 21:16
  Speaker 3: Absolute smash. No pun intended.
• 21:19
  Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah. It's strange because Romano, the guy who has
• 21:25
  Speaker 1: made these images, has already absconded from Rome. He is
• 21:30
  Speaker 1: a court artist. in Mantua, and Raimondi, you know, before
• 21:35
  Speaker 1: he was released, he was stuck in prison by himself,
• 21:38
  Speaker 1: and the church attempted to seize and destroy all copies
• 21:42
  Speaker 1: of the book. They didn't want that getting out.
• 21:45
  Speaker 3: The church is really good at eradicating unflattering literature, aren't.
• 21:49
  Speaker 1: They, Ben? Yeah, but in 1527, Imodi was reissued with
• 21:54
  Speaker 1: those licentious poems we mentioned earlier, and it became a blockbuster.
• 21:59
  Speaker 1: It was selling out across Europe. And the book had
• 22:04
  Speaker 1: many names. It was called Imodi, The Posture, The Fashion.
• 22:07
  Speaker 1: It's also known as Arentino's Postures, The Sixteen Pleasures, or
• 22:12
  Speaker 1: De Omnibus Veneris Schematibus.
• 22:15
  Speaker 3: Veneris, huh?
• 22:16
  Speaker 2: That's Latin. What does schematibus mean? It must mean some
• 22:20
  Speaker 2: form of position. In fact, when I Google the word,
• 22:22
  Speaker 2: the first thing that comes up is Imodi again. So
• 22:24
  Speaker 2: that obviously just refers to the function and practice of
• 22:29
  Speaker 2: moving things. The limbs are out in particular arrays, right?
• 22:33
  Speaker 1: Yeah, exactly. So this did more than just make money
• 22:37
  Speaker 1: and get people thrown in jail, though. It was one
• 22:39
  Speaker 1: of those rare works of erotica or let's be honest,
• 22:42
  Speaker 1: pornography that jumped from niche to mainstream. You know what
• 22:47
  Speaker 1: I mean? It's sort of like in a way it's
• 22:51
  Speaker 1: similar to Fifty Shades of Grey.
• 22:53
  Speaker 3: Yeah, that's true.
• 22:53
  Speaker 2: And there's a really great article from Atlas Obscura called
• 22:57
  Speaker 2: Europe's First Pornographic Blockbuster Was Made in the Vatican that
• 23:00
  Speaker 2: makes that very connection. Or something like Deep Throat, which
• 23:03
  Speaker 2: was a pornographic film that became pretty widely disseminated and
• 23:07
  Speaker 2: almost like tongue-in-cheekedly disseminated. Talked about in, you know, polite
• 23:12
  Speaker 2: social circles.
• 23:13
  Speaker 1: Right, right. People would performatively clutch their pearls. Tee hee. Yeah,
• 23:18
  Speaker 1: and hide their faces.
• 23:19
  Speaker 3: Exactly.
• 23:20
  Speaker 1: Yeah, so you refer to it as a joke. You
• 23:22
  Speaker 1: know what I mean? To be a little bit edgy
• 23:24
  Speaker 1: in conversation. Some people will even argue that William Shakespeare
• 23:28
  Speaker 1: himself snuck a reference to this book in A Winter's
• 23:34
  Speaker 1: Tale when he talks about that rare Italian master, Julio Romano.
• 23:39
  Speaker 1: There was a 16th century Italian phrasebook that was aimed
• 23:43
  Speaker 1: at English tourists, and it taught them how to ask
• 23:48
  Speaker 1: in Italian for the works of Arentino at bookstores.
• 23:52
  Speaker 3: It's a must, dude.
• 23:55
  Speaker 2: But alas, I guess I'm going to say alas. I mean, thankfully,
• 23:58
  Speaker 2: we have these lovely recreations that you can see on
• 24:00
  Speaker 2: the Dangerous Minds site. But the book itself, and as
• 24:04
  Speaker 2: far as I know, the text of the sonnets, are
• 24:06
  Speaker 2: pretty much were successfully eradicated by the Vatican.
• 24:09
  Speaker 1: And the original frescoes as well.
• 24:11
  Speaker 3: The original frescoes as well.
• 24:12
  Speaker 2: If you'd like to believe that they're buried underneath those,
• 24:16
  Speaker 2: you know, paintings of Constantine, the life of Constantine, you know,
• 24:19
  Speaker 2: that's possibly one way you could uncover that mystery.
• 24:22
  Speaker 3: If you want to go in there and start scraping
• 24:24
  Speaker 3: away the paint, not recommending that.
• 24:25
  Speaker 1: Wait, wait, wait. I'll recommend.
• 24:27
  Speaker 3: Vatican's serious business, dude. They will throw you in some
• 24:29
  Speaker 3: sort of like dungeon.
• 24:31
  Speaker 1: Listen to me carefully, grad students, art historians. My spider
• 24:37
  Speaker 1: sense tells me there might be a grant in here,
• 24:40
  Speaker 1: maybe even a dissertation.
• 24:41
  Speaker 3: Surely there's a way you could x-ray them or something
• 24:43
  Speaker 3: and penetrate. I mean, I'm not sure exactly how technology works, really.
• 24:47
  Speaker 3: That's not what kind of show this is.
• 24:49
  Speaker 1: But it's true that there were illegal or bootleg copies
• 24:53
  Speaker 1: of iModi or things purporting to be iModi that were
• 24:57
  Speaker 1: printed for over a century afterwards, well into the 1600s.
• 25:01
  Speaker 1: There's no way to know how many works were printed.
• 25:05
  Speaker 1: But because churches and governments cooperated to hunt down and
• 25:09
  Speaker 1: destroy the copies, at least with as much enthusiasm as
• 25:15
  Speaker 1: people sought to collect and print them, we don't have
• 25:19
  Speaker 1: a record of the actual 16 postures that were depicted.
• 25:24
  Speaker 3: There's a few.
• 25:25
  Speaker 1: There's a few. We don't have all of them.
• 25:26
  Speaker 3: A few little scrappies that remain in the collection of
• 25:28
  Speaker 3: the British Museum.
• 25:34
  Speaker 1: We do have the sonnets. I found some and off
• 25:37
  Speaker 1: the air, I sent these to you as well. They're,
• 25:43
  Speaker 1: you know, you can blame a little bit on the translation,
• 25:45
  Speaker 1: but they're pretty, they're pretty bawdy.
• 25:48
  Speaker 3: Let's like Canterbury Tales bawdy or like.
• 25:52
  Speaker 1: Wow. Wow. Ben. So, okay. So we'll, I'll, I'll read
• 25:59
  Speaker 1: one and we'll, we'll need to beep this. So Paul,
• 26:03
  Speaker 1: I'm going to make eye contact with you. Be ready
• 26:06
  Speaker 1: for this.
• 26:06
  Speaker 3: That's some intense eye contact right there.
• 26:08
  Speaker 1: Eye movement here, yeah. Okay, here we go. Stick your
• 26:13
  Speaker 1: finger up my a * *, old man. Thrust Kazo
• 26:16
  Speaker 1: in a little at a time. Lift up my leg.
• 26:19
  Speaker 1: Maneuver well. Now pound with all inhibitions gone. Oh, I
• 26:22
  Speaker 1: got bad.
• 26:23
  Speaker 3: It's worse.
• 26:24
  Speaker 1: I believe this is a tastier feast than eating garlic
• 26:26
  Speaker 1: bread before a fire.
• 26:28
  Speaker 3: It goes on.
• 26:29
  Speaker 1: Okay. Wow. Not what you were expecting? No.
• 26:32
  Speaker 2: See, when you start bringing the food metaphors in there,
• 26:35
  Speaker 2: that's when it really turns me, dude.
• 26:37
  Speaker 3: And we should talk about this because we talked about this.
• 26:39
  Speaker 3: We can totally not read any of those ever again.
• 26:42
  Speaker 1: Yeah. I took one for the team on that one.
• 26:44
  Speaker 3: Oh, man.
• 26:44
  Speaker 2: Oh, God.
• 26:45
  Speaker 1: Okay.
• 26:46
  Speaker 3: Oh, my good heavens.
• 26:47
  Speaker 1: Okay. Sorry.
• 26:49
  Speaker 3: Speaking of pearl clutching, I'm being, I'm kind of, I'm
• 26:52
  Speaker 3: kind of a prude. I am very much blushing. Listen though,
• 26:55
  Speaker 3: we gotta, we gotta get this out of the way.
• 26:56
  Speaker 2: Uh, before we went on the air, we were deciding
• 26:59
  Speaker 2: whether or not to look, whether to use the word
• 27:01
  Speaker 2: pornography or porn. And you, Ben mentioned that you always
• 27:05
  Speaker 2: felt the word porn was more salacious nowadays. And we
• 27:09
  Speaker 2: were trying to figure out why that was.
• 27:10
  Speaker 1: I don't know why. Yeah. It must, it must entirely
• 27:12
  Speaker 1: be a subjective thing. I guess, um, Pornography at least
• 27:17
  Speaker 1: sounds a little more academic, I guess. And also there's
• 27:21
  Speaker 1: something that puts me ill at ease when people describe
• 27:25
  Speaker 1: non-sexual things as porn, like when people say, oh, food porn.
• 27:30
  Speaker 1: Or even when, you know, I saw somebody who was,
• 27:33
  Speaker 1: I met someone's dog. I love dogs. And I was
• 27:37
  Speaker 1: rubbing this dog's belly and the dog's owner says, oh, yeah,
• 27:42
  Speaker 1: she's like such a slut for belly rubs. And that
• 27:44
  Speaker 1: was really gross to me. I'm just scratching the stock.
• 27:46
  Speaker 2: Well, you know, I mean, people are taking that word back.
• 27:49
  Speaker 2: But I think that that's a good point. I really
• 27:51
  Speaker 2: am with you on the food stuff. Like, I don't
• 27:53
  Speaker 2: think either one of us like it when someone describes
• 27:55
  Speaker 2: a bite of cake as orgasmic or sumptuous.
• 28:00
  Speaker 3: No, it turns me, it turns my, exquisite is fine.
• 28:03
  Speaker 3: That's not inherently sexual.
• 28:05
  Speaker 1: I was just feeling the riff. Yeah.
• 28:06
  Speaker 3: No, it's true.
• 28:07
  Speaker 2: But I think we've gotten to the bottom of it.
• 28:08
  Speaker 2: And I think both of us feel the same way.
• 28:10
  Speaker 2: But I think we used a combination of porn and
• 28:12
  Speaker 2: pornography in this episode because it was, you know, It
• 28:15
  Speaker 2: was about all the many shades, 50 shades of Renaissance erotica.
• 28:21
  Speaker 2: And that's also, I think, why that sonnet really did
• 28:24
  Speaker 2: it for me, not in a good way. Because once
• 28:26
  Speaker 2: you started bringing garlic bread into the equation, I'm like,
• 28:28
  Speaker 2: leave garlic bread out of this, okay?
• 28:29
  Speaker 1: I'm so pro snack, man. Oh, dude. It's funny because
• 28:33
  Speaker 1: this is our producer Maya's literal favorite. first day.
• 28:37
  Speaker 3: We did warn her.
• 28:38
  Speaker 1: We tried to.
• 28:41
  Speaker 3: We're not a naughty show.
• 28:42
  Speaker 1: We're not. We are nothing if not wholesome in general.
• 28:47
  Speaker 1: But this is fascinating because I think a lot of
• 28:51
  Speaker 1: people who enjoy reading about the history of the Catholic Church,
• 28:55
  Speaker 1: I think a lot of us are familiar with the
• 28:59
  Speaker 1: scandalous popes of years gone by, but we're maybe not
• 29:04
  Speaker 1: as aware of the The pornography that the Catholic Church
• 29:11
  Speaker 1: unwittingly created.
• 29:12
  Speaker 3: Unleashed on the world.
• 29:13
  Speaker 1: Unleashed. That's a great word.
• 29:14
  Speaker 3: That's it. That's the thing, though, right?
• 29:16
  Speaker 2: I mean, it's sort of like the idea of, I
• 29:18
  Speaker 2: don't know, prostitution or sex work being the oldest profession.
• 29:21
  Speaker 3: I don't know.
• 29:22
  Speaker 2: That's sort of a misnomer, probably. But it makes sense
• 29:23
  Speaker 2: because it's a thing that people. In some form or
• 29:26
  Speaker 2: fashion need. It's like a gap people need filled. Well,
• 29:29
  Speaker 2: that's very, very graphic sounding. But in terms of like
• 29:32
  Speaker 2: there's artists, why wouldn't artists do this? It's sort of
• 29:35
  Speaker 2: I wonder if they didn't even realize like the idea
• 29:37
  Speaker 2: that this can be a stand in for actual.
• 29:40
  Speaker 1: Sex.
• 29:41
  Speaker 2: Because someone had to invent the idea of pornography.
• 29:44
  Speaker 1: Right. I think it's parallel thinking. I'm fairly certain. Many
• 29:50
  Speaker 1: lonely people invented the idea of pornography.
• 29:53
  Speaker 3: Cave paintings, you think?
• 29:53
  Speaker 1: On their own.
• 29:54
  Speaker 3: Erotic cave paintings?
• 29:55
  Speaker 1: Sure. And sculptures, you know, the Venus figures.
• 29:58
  Speaker 3: That's right. Color me naive, Ben.
• 30:02
  Speaker 1: You know, I've got to admit, I'm usually laser focused
• 30:05
  Speaker 1: when we're exploring these fascinating stories, Noel. But I still
• 30:08
  Speaker 1: have this PDF up and it is startling. Yeah. It
• 30:13
  Speaker 1: is a splash of cold water. It really is. So
• 30:17
  Speaker 1: you can find this book. You can find translations of
• 30:22
  Speaker 1: it available on Amazon. Again, categorically, emphatically, not safe for work.
• 30:28
  Speaker 1: But what a strange book. amazing story. And what a
• 30:32
  Speaker 1: bizarre effect this had on the world.
• 30:34
  Speaker 3: We're okay though, right? We looked at it at work.
• 30:37
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 30:37
  Speaker 3: It's sort of our job.
• 30:38
  Speaker 1: It is. It is literally our job. We had a
• 30:40
  Speaker 1: reason for it. If it comes at us, we can
• 30:43
  Speaker 1: say we were doing this for an episode.
• 30:46
  Speaker 3: Yep. At least I was, I don't want to, I mean, I'm, I'm,
• 30:49
  Speaker 3: I'm along for the ride for you. I'm hanging onto
• 30:51
  Speaker 3: your coattails.
• 30:52
  Speaker 1: I'm hanging onto your coattails. Where are we going?
• 30:55
  Speaker 3: We are going home or to the bar or something.
• 30:59
  Speaker 1: That's right. This concludes today's episode, but not our show.
• 31:03
  Speaker 1: We do hope you enjoyed this strange journey wherein both
• 31:09
  Speaker 1: of us did take some off-air breaks laughing a bit
• 31:15
  Speaker 1: because we're emotionally both probably, what, nine, ten? Yeah.
• 31:18
  Speaker 3: Between us. Combined.
• 31:19
  Speaker 1: Combined. That's a cumulative effect.
• 31:22
  Speaker 3: Our powers combined, we are a nine-year-old boy.
• 31:25
  Speaker 1: Great. So... We want to hear your stories, too. What
• 31:29
  Speaker 1: are some of the weird, scandalous tales of art in
• 31:34
  Speaker 1: years gone by?
• 31:35
  Speaker 3: Did you end up with a copy of the Kama
• 31:37
  Speaker 3: Sutra when you were 14?
• 31:38
  Speaker 1: I did. You did?
• 31:39
  Speaker 3: Sure did.
• 31:40
  Speaker 1: I saw one, but I never had my own copy.
• 31:43
  Speaker 1: I had it hidden under my mattress. Is this TMI?
• 31:47
  Speaker 3: That's fine. I'm going with it.
• 31:48
  Speaker 1: No, that's good. Good for you, man. It feels kind
• 31:50
  Speaker 1: of academic.
• 31:50
  Speaker 3: It's academic, and it's also personally liberating for me.
• 31:54
  Speaker 1: There you go, man.
• 31:55
  Speaker 3: But thanks for joining us for the show.
• 31:57
  Speaker 2: Thanks, as always, to our super producer, Paul, Mission Control Deccan, Labouche,
• 32:01
  Speaker 2: Casey Pegram.
• 32:03
  Speaker 3: We'll be back very soon.
• 32:04
  Speaker 1: It's true. He's returning. Thanks also to Christopher Haciotis. Thanks
• 32:09
  Speaker 1: to our research associate, Gabe. Thanks to... Alex Williams, who
• 32:14
  Speaker 1: composed that nifty little riff you hear at the opening
• 32:17
  Speaker 1: of every show.
• 32:18
  Speaker 2: By the way, we promised to do this on a
• 32:19
  Speaker 2: previous episode but did not get to it.
• 32:22
  Speaker 1: What's that?
• 32:22
  Speaker 2: Just want to point out that Alex's fantastic new show, Ephemeral,
• 32:26
  Speaker 2: is live in the feed on any place you get
• 32:28
  Speaker 2: your podcasts. And the episode he talked with us about
• 32:31
  Speaker 2: concerning the Collier brothers, we had said on the episode
• 32:34
  Speaker 2: that it wasn't coming out for another month or so.
• 32:36
  Speaker 2: He actually switched it up, and it is now out
• 32:39
  Speaker 2: in the ephemeral feed. So go catch that and get
• 32:41
  Speaker 2: the whole story of these weird kind of hermity hoarder brothers.
• 32:46
  Speaker 1: Good save. Good save. Well done and well put, though,
• 32:49
  Speaker 1: because we did assure him, yeah, we'll do it. We'll
• 32:53
  Speaker 1: do it in a previous episode. But now we have
• 32:54
  Speaker 1: finally made good on it. Alex, if you are listening,
• 32:57
  Speaker 1: every soon-to-be ardent fan of ephemeral, go check it out.
• 33:02
  Speaker 1: Do not hesitate. So we'll be back very soon with
• 33:05
  Speaker 1: a new, ridiculous, and hopefully a bit less salacious episode.
• 33:09
  Speaker 3: I was into it, man. I was perfectly comfortable. Except
• 33:12
  Speaker 3: when you said the thing about the old man and
• 33:13
  Speaker 3: the garlic bread. That really threw me.
• 33:15
  Speaker 1: That got to me. Yeah. That's going to stay with me.
• 33:18
  Speaker 3: It really is. It's an image. That's for sure.
• 33:24
  Speaker 1: You and I have read the full thing. Did you
• 33:26
  Speaker 1: read the rest of it? No, dude.
• 33:27
  Speaker 3: I stopped there.
• 33:28
  Speaker 2: But if you want to share any of this stuff
• 33:30
  Speaker 2: with us, Kama Sutra, Any of the poetry, any of
• 33:32
  Speaker 2: this kind of, you know, whatever your sexual journey has been.
• 33:35
  Speaker 3: Maybe that's too much. We don't need all that.
• 33:37
  Speaker 2: But you can do it either by joining us on
• 33:39
  Speaker 2: our Facebook group, which is called Ridiculous Historians, where we
• 33:42
  Speaker 2: have a really cool community of friends, folks that like
• 33:45
  Speaker 2: the show, that are talking to each other, sharing memes,
• 33:48
  Speaker 2: discussing the episodes, all of that. All you have to
• 33:50
  Speaker 2: do is say either me and Ben's name, kind of
• 33:52
  Speaker 2: genie style, to gain entry.
• 33:55
  Speaker 1: Or honestly say something that gives either of us a chuckle.
• 33:58
  Speaker 3: Also true.
• 33:59
  Speaker 1: It's a good pun. I'm a sucker for those. You
• 34:01
  Speaker 1: can also find us on Twitter. You can find us
• 34:04
  Speaker 1: on Instagram, both as a show and as our real-life personas. Recently,
• 34:11
  Speaker 1: I went to the Comic Strip Museum in Belgium and
• 34:14
  Speaker 1: was very surprised by the deeply racist roots of that.
• 34:20
  Speaker 1: You can see some of those adventures on my Instagram,
• 34:22
  Speaker 1: where I am at Ben Bolin.
• 34:24
  Speaker 3: And I am at HowNowNoelBrown.
• 34:26
  Speaker 2: If you don't want to do any of that stuff,
• 34:28
  Speaker 2: just shoot us an email where we are ridiculous at iheartradio.com.
• 34:31
  Speaker 3: See you next time, folks. For more podcasts from iHeartRadio,
• 34:37
  Speaker 3: visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen
• 34:40
  Speaker 3: to your favorite shows.