Latest / We Are For Good Podcast - The Podcast for Nonprofits / 479. Fundraising AI: The Opportunity, The Ethics + Why It Matters Right Now - Mallory Erickson, Meena Das, and Nathan Chappell

Transcript

479. Fundraising AI: The Opportunity, The Ethics + Why It Matters Right Now - Mallory Erickson, Meena Das, and Nathan Chappell · We Are For Good Podcast - The Podcast for Nonprofits

• 0:01
  Speaker 1: Hey, I'm John.
• 0:02
  Speaker 2: And I'm Becky.
• 0:03
  Speaker 1: And this is the we Are For Good podcast.
• 0:06
  Speaker 2: Nonprofits are faced with more challenges to accomplish their missions and the growing pressure to do more, raise more and be more for the causes that improve our world.
• 0:15
  Speaker 1: We're here to learn with you from some of the best in the industry, bringing the most innovative ideas, inspirational stories, all to create an impact uprising.
• 0:23
  Speaker 2: So welcome to the Good Community.
• 0:25
  Speaker 2: We're nonprofit professionals, philanthropists, world changers and rabbit fans who are striving to bring a little more goodness into the world.
• 0:34
  Speaker 1: So let's get started.
• 0:35
  Speaker 1: Becky, don't you just love when we get to be the rabbit fans on the podcast.
• 0:41
  Speaker 2: Let's just say it's like an alumni reunion.
• 0:43
  Speaker 2: We're here at a reunion today with our guests.
• 0:46
  Speaker 1: It's like a homecoming, because we all care about this sector and I'm not being cheeky Like we truly do care about this sector so deeply.
• 0:52
  Speaker 1: Some were worried about the sector really deeply too, and I think this conversation today is leading into AI Week on the podcast, and we have partnered with truly some of the most heartwired, brilliant thought leaders in the space on the fundraisingai summit, which, if you're not registered friends like, stop what you're doing.
• 1:10
  Speaker 1: We know you can multitask and podcast at the same time.
• 1:12
  Speaker 1: Go register.
• 1:13
  Speaker 1: This event is free and it is for the taking it as two days of the most powerhouse amount of speakers just to get you thinking and conversating and just wrestling with ideas.
• 1:21
  Speaker 1: You don't have to know anything to walk in the door, but we promise you're going to come out with so much more knowledge.
• 1:26
  Speaker 1: But let's talk a little bit about this whole AI discussion, because Becky and I are the types that typically tap out when we start talking about things that are too tech heavy.
• 1:34
  Speaker 1: Isn't that right B?
• 1:35
  Speaker 2: Oh, I'm terrified of it and I know I'm going to just look like I know nothing about it, and I bet that's how everybody feels in this moment.
• 1:43
  Speaker 1: So it's like this is bomb to our soul that not only have these brilliant thought leaders gathered, but they're really envisioning a thriving nonprofit sector.
• 1:51
  Speaker 1: That not only where we tap AI for its abilities, but we make sure we're centering ethical use of it, responsibility, inclusivity, at its very core, because we know the power to be unleashed is going to create an impact that's not been possible before in this moment.
• 2:07
  Speaker 1: So we're going to unpack not just what is fundraisingai, what does it mean?
• 2:11
  Speaker 1: How do we engage with it?
• 2:12
  Speaker 1: What's the framework?
• 2:13
  Speaker 1: We're going to talk it all today, but we have got the three most powerhouse guests and, becky, you got to introduce these three.
• 2:18
  Speaker 1: They're some of our favorite humans.
• 2:20
  Speaker 2: They are truly like if I were going to go that question of if you're going to go on a deserted island, what three people would you take.
• 2:27
  Speaker 2: They just all happen to be here right now.
• 2:29
  Speaker 2: So the first person I want to introduce is my sister from another, mr Mallory Erickson.
• 2:34
  Speaker 2: She may be the most frequented podcast guest on our podcast because she is just so knowledgeable and so wise in the way that she approaches our work.
• 2:44
  Speaker 2: She's the founder of the Power Partners Formula and host of what, the Fundraising podcast.
• 2:48
  Speaker 2: Hello, mallory, not to be outdone by the incredible Mina Doss, you know her and love her.
• 2:55
  Speaker 2: She is data intelligence with heart.
• 2:58
  Speaker 2: She is a consultant and founder of Namaste Data and y'all.
• 3:02
  Speaker 2: She is going to tell you how to humanize your data and why we need to be leaning into this moment.
• 3:07
  Speaker 2: And last but certainly not least, we had Nathan Chappelle, who has also been on the podcast many times.
• 3:13
  Speaker 2: We know him as Mr Nonprofit AI.
• 3:16
  Speaker 2: He was doing this research long before.
• 3:19
  Speaker 2: It was cool, but he's a senior vice president at Donor Search AI and he is also the author of the Generosity Crisis, which was the first weir for books, book club, book that we all.
• 3:31
  Speaker 2: How many times can I say book, book, book, book that we all read and felt changed by.
• 3:35
  Speaker 2: So three friends, welcome to the podcast.
• 3:38
  Speaker 2: We are overjoyed you all are back.
• 3:39
  Speaker 2: Let's get into it.
• 3:41
  Speaker 1: Well, I mean y'all.
• 3:42
  Speaker 1: I feel like we got a tone set.
• 3:43
  Speaker 1: I mean, how did something like this event that's gathering thousands of people globally around this topic, how did it come into focus?
• 3:50
  Speaker 1: I mean, nathan, you got to like kickstart.
• 3:51
  Speaker 1: Give a little bit of context, because Becky and I first became aware of this, I would say back in April, around AFP global.
• 3:57
  Speaker 1: There was kind of this gathering of minds that we're all sitting there.
• 4:00
  Speaker 1: I remember being in this, like you know, hotel extra room and being like what is this.
• 4:05
  Speaker 1: Like how are we going to move forward?
• 4:07
  Speaker 1: But there was such generosity of heart, there was such open hands that it didn't matter who I worked for or what organization, but there was this coming together moment to say let's do this together in lockstep, and Nathan kind of break it down for us what happened at that meeting and what's happened since then.
• 4:22
  Speaker 3: Yeah, no, I'm so great, it's so great to be here, like always a good day, when I can look at my calendar and look at who I'm going to be spending time with, and I mean it's just just love it, and I mean with Mina and Mallory here.
• 4:34
  Speaker 3: You know this, this entire effort is a testament to the power of we and our sector.
• 4:40
  Speaker 3: You know, people caring not about what's happening today but caring about the future, and being not just caring but being willing to do something about it.
• 4:47
  Speaker 3: And so you know, for me, truthfully, the path that led us to today came out of probably a more selfish moment and back in 2017, when I was just exploring machine learning within my job, when I was at City of Hope and and frankly, the selfish part was like I was hoping to, like you know, leverage other people's mistakes so that I didn't have to make the same ones.
• 5:10
  Speaker 3: And so, you know, at that time started like gathering a list of people and it grew over time, but a list of around 125 people that were exploring different aspects of AI and fundraising.
• 5:22
  Speaker 3: And you know, the hope always was like well, how do we shorten the learning curve and how do we, you know, achieve greater results faster.
• 5:29
  Speaker 3: And what I came to understand over a period of time was it was less about it became less about achieving greater results in shorter period, but really understanding the power of the technology and you know, and how it could be used for good, but also really recognizing some of the potential harm that it could do for a sector long term.
• 5:49
  Speaker 3: And so I'll just fast forward to where we're at today and then punt it to Mallory and Mina.
• 5:54
  Speaker 3: But it was kind of a lonely road for several years, like about four or five years, where I was like trying to get people to convene and to care enough to talk about it.
• 6:04
  Speaker 3: And, you know, stuff just happened.
• 6:05
  Speaker 3: I mean, it was very niche technology in the nonprofit sector for a while, so just not a lot of people cared.
• 6:11
  Speaker 3: And then COVID happened and even less people cared.
• 6:14
  Speaker 3: And then, you know, fast forward to November of last year when OpenAI released JetGBT, all of a sudden everyone cared and you know, for a number of years we would gather people and we would, you know, bribe people to come to AFP icon and say, hey, let's talk about this thing.
• 6:29
  Speaker 3: And it was a little bit of like pulling, you know, like trying to, you know, pull some strings to get people to show up.
• 6:34
  Speaker 3: But this year you were there, like it was, like we invited, you know, like 14 people and like 60 people showed up and it was very, very different in the sense of like this palpable sense of like urgency that, oh my gosh, like something transformative happened, like, and we're not prepared, what do we do?
• 6:51
  Speaker 3: And you know, I think everything that's happened since then has been a representation of the time that we're living in this unprecedented overused word, but unprecedented time, where this exponential technology is growing faster than our ability to understand it, which is causing the need to like, hey, let's hit the pause button for a second and let's gather the best minds to learn from each other and hopefully accelerate the learning.
• 7:18
  Speaker 2: I think I just want to create some space on behalf of the sector, on behalf of every mission who will be impacted by this work.
• 7:27
  Speaker 2: Tell you all thank you.
• 7:29
  Speaker 2: Thank you, for I get emotional about this because I know how much time all of you have sacrificed of your personal time, of your personal businesses because it was that important and what you have built, this framework that you built.
• 7:46
  Speaker 2: I can tell you, when I saw it, I felt myself exhale, because it felt like we were not only going to be okay.
• 7:56
  Speaker 2: It was that we had so much opportunity and promise if we took this very measured approach.
• 8:02
  Speaker 2: And so I want to talk about how do we think in the future while acting in the now, and I want to just level set and define AI.
• 8:11
  Speaker 2: Like what is it for all of those who are coming at this with such a beginner's mind?
• 8:16
  Speaker 2: We want you to define this and we want you to give us some quick examples, and we're likely already relying on AI powered tools without even knowing it, and it's beyond chat, gpt at this point, and I want you to take and I know, mal, you're so big on this take the fear out of it and just educate us so that we can feel empowered to go into this conversation.
• 8:40
  Speaker 4: To me, ai is something we have been part of for a long time, before we even acknowledged or learned to say the terms or what this looks like.
• 8:48
  Speaker 4: Examples are around us, whether we are planning our trip, show, movie, anything which is taking and learning our data to find patterns, saying that it can help us on X and Y, z fronts.
• 9:05
  Speaker 4: That is some sort of an algorithm running right there.
• 9:08
  Speaker 4: What right now is happening and we are interested in talking is how do we make sure that the data that we are picking up to run through a program to create some output, to influence our actions and behaviors that come out of it Basically, the entire cycle of creating something out of AI.
• 9:26
  Speaker 4: What do we do with that cycle?
• 9:29
  Speaker 4: How do we use that cycle for good, and not just about the end result and outcome, but really every step of that cycle, right from the data to the program that is going to be used, the output that is going to come, the interpretations.
• 9:42
  Speaker 4: Who makes those interpretations, what interpretations comes out of those systems, that whole cycle.
• 9:48
  Speaker 4: I think that is what, to me, is AI and that is what I am interested to talk about by being part of this group.
• 10:00
  Speaker 3: If I could add that too, I think, one of the things that for people like me and I have been around AI for a long time it used to be that even the term AI was a bit out of vote, especially like data scientists.
• 10:13
  Speaker 3: So you would hate that, you'd like don't say that word.
• 10:15
  Speaker 3: It just means everything and nothing, and so you'd have to describe what type of AI so machine learning or deep learning or natural language processing.
• 10:24
  Speaker 3: But fast forward to to now, where you've got organizations like OpenAI essentially declaring that they invented AI and they invented a different type of AI, which we all know is called generative AI, and so I think it's actually created a lot more confusion in the market.
• 10:40
  Speaker 3: I think if you were to survey people on the street today, most people would say oh yeah, I know AI AI is is chat GBT, and in fact, chat GBT is not even AI.
• 10:51
  Speaker 3: It's an interface that allows you to use AI.
• 10:54
  Speaker 3: So, anyway, I think it's just an interesting and important distinction that right now there's just a lot of this confusion.
• 11:02
  Speaker 3: I think in the near future, people understand it a little bit better in what it is and what it isn't.
• 11:07
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, I feel that in my own life too.
• 11:10
  Speaker 1: I mean, when you came on the podcast two years ago, I kind of 100%.
• 11:13
  Speaker 2: I did too.
• 11:13
  Speaker 2: I kind of crazy died.
• 11:14
  Speaker 3: I was like I don't fully know what.
• 11:16
  Speaker 1: Nathan's talking about it describing.
• 11:17
  Speaker 1: But now that we have these tangible use cases, you're like, oh my gosh, we need to catch up fast because and Woodrow Rosenbaum also shared this with us recently of just like, if we don't, this is going to be another one of those inflection points in history where nonprofit is behind another decade and it's like we need to step in and realize and recognize what this is.
• 11:38
  Speaker 1: So can we talk about what is the role of AI right now in fundraising today?
• 11:44
  Speaker 1: What are the tools?
• 11:46
  Speaker 1: How are people using it, maybe without even knowing it in this moment?
• 11:50
  Speaker 5: What I think is interesting about that question is that I think what it helps do is demystify AI being this thing that we haven't yet dipped our toe in.
• 11:59
  Speaker 5: So I think what's important about that question is that I think folks, if they're considering coming to the summit or getting involved in this in some way, they might be like oh, I'm not ready to go into AI yet, I'm still trying to get a handle on X, y and Z.
• 12:14
  Speaker 5: And I think the really important piece of sort of understanding the scope of AI is recognizing that you are using AI.
• 12:21
  Speaker 5: And so I've been in a lot of conversations where folks think chat, gpt is what shifted nonprofits use of AI.
• 12:30
  Speaker 5: I think Canva is what shifted nonprofits use of AI, but they don't know that that is AI, right, grammarly, like they're all these things that we're using.
• 12:42
  Speaker 5: But because our framework around AI, I think before this moment, was what are the tools that will help me address this problem I'm facing?
• 12:52
  Speaker 5: It wasn't like how do I integrate AI into my life?
• 12:55
  Speaker 5: It was like what are the problems I'm having?
• 12:57
  Speaker 5: What are the tools out there that help me solve that problem or make that action easier to do?
• 13:01
  Speaker 5: That's where Canva came in, that's where Grammarly came in and then, since chat, gpt exploded and there's this whole focus on AI being the solution.
• 13:12
  Speaker 5: Now people are approaching it with this different lens of how can I integrate AI, and it's like we still want to actually start with what's the challenge that you're having and what are the tools that help you address that challenge.
• 13:25
  Speaker 5: And then, yes, of course, understanding the role that AI plays in addressing that is really helpful, and so I don't know, Nathan and Mina, where you want to go from there.
• 13:34
  Speaker 5: But that's the lens I come into it from.
• 14:11
  Speaker 3: Yeah, I think what you're describing, mallory, is really that the barriers of using AI have been diminished extensively, and so, while AI is not new and even GPTs and large language models are not new the barrier to using them and the accessibility of them has just been exponential.
• 14:30
  Speaker 3: And so I think that's where, a few years ago, you felt like, well, this is this weird, mysterious thing that I think is out there and I know how people are using it, but I can't see it and I can't use it in really any effective way, and so that's for me, what has changed so much is the ease of use and people now being able to see the clear benefit of like I have an HR assistant, I have a legal assistant, I have a proofer and a copywriter, and all at my disposal which, for nonprofits that all I've never met a nonprofit that didn't struggle with the need for more resources it's something that is transformative.
• 15:07
  Speaker 3: If I started my fundraising career 20 years ago, I'd give my left arm for a chat GPT back then.
• 15:13
  Speaker 3: Oh my gosh, I mean I would have crushed it.
• 15:15
  Speaker 3: So, at the end of the day, all AI is essentially measured in precision and personalization and it's ability to do that at scale.
• 15:25
  Speaker 3: So that's why people get confused about just AI so broad and confusing, but at its core it delivers either precision or personalization, and now I can do that at scale through things like chat, gpt or Claude or Bard or whatever, and the resources that nonprofits have now are just remarkable.
• 15:45
  Speaker 4: What I'm seeing from a lot of my conversations and I know what Nathan and Mallory might have seen this too there was this fear and I feel that was just fear for a long time.
• 15:56
  Speaker 4: I don't understand this term.
• 15:57
  Speaker 4: What is this?
• 15:58
  Speaker 4: I have no idea.
• 15:59
  Speaker 4: Now that we have been talking about this for the last six months more and more and more in our sector a little bit more and more, I would say they're still not there yet.
• 16:08
  Speaker 4: To get deeper into this, I think the fear is slowly shifting into this over development, discomfort, like I don't know.
• 16:17
  Speaker 4: We haven't integrated AI into our organization yet.
• 16:20
  Speaker 4: Let's talk about it, how to integrate AI, and I want to use this platform to say this out loud that we need to be okay being uncomfortable for a minute before jumping in to say what are the five things we need right now all the tools.
• 16:36
  Speaker 4: Let's get like add-ons and licenses to these five tools and start integrating it, because it's going to then only going to become part of, very soon, part of our G-Mails and Outlook and Drive.
• 16:49
  Speaker 4: If we want to make this sustainable, we have to be comfortable being uncomfortable a little bit to understand what is the scope of this conversation.
• 16:58
  Speaker 4: Yes, I want people to start using it, but not get so bogged down by the overwhelm that they feel like they can take another step in this direction to figure out oh, this is such a big world, what do I do with it?
• 17:10
  Speaker 4: So be uncomfortable for a while to understand what's the scope of all this and slowly, intentionally understanding what's your challenge, start bringing in some of these pieces into that thé table words, mina, das I heart you so much Like for you to take a pause from this heady discussion and take us back to mindset, work and reorient us is so powerful because I think this is just human nature when we don't know something, it's gonna create fear.
• 17:43
  Speaker 2: You know, when we feel unmoored by something that's new, we are gonna spiral, and I think, as a sector, we're just not prone to be progressive, to just put ourselves out there.
• 17:55
  Speaker 2: And I think this invitation that you're gently extending to everyone is maybe the most powerful part of this conversation, which is don't war against this, don't run from it.
• 18:08
  Speaker 2: Actually, if you can get in the current of it and start to get a little curious and start to integrate your understanding, your world is gonna shift and your mission is gonna shift and your anxiety is gonna shift in all in positive directions, because you're empowered.
• 18:28
  Speaker 2: And I do wanna talk with you all what we have you here about just some of the emerging trends you're seeing in the space, like how are people using this and how do you foresee that intersection of AI and fundraising coming together in the near future in interesting ways?
• 18:45
  Speaker 2: I'll just pitch that to the group.
• 18:47
  Speaker 3: I'll actually build upon what Mino said and then transition in.
• 18:50
  Speaker 3: You know, I mean, the way the world is working and why this technological revolution is so different than any other is that we've never had technology build technology, and so if it feels like it's overwhelming and it feels like it's so fast, it is.
• 19:06
  Speaker 3: There's never been technology that builds new technology on its own, you know, in this autonomous way, and it's really that recursive self-improvement that it's getting better.
• 19:16
  Speaker 3: It's the reason why people can't explain neural networks is because, essentially, they've taught a computer to teach a computer and so it's going and it's so fast and it's going faster than our ability to understand it.
• 19:27
  Speaker 3: And that's again where I'm highlighting what Mino said is like there's this really important moment where we have to still compete, because we have to stay relevant, because the world is moving fast and if nonprofits don't compete, they will be less relevant.
• 19:42
  Speaker 3: But we have to do it in a way that's extremely thoughtful, strategic and responsible.
• 19:48
  Speaker 3: And that's truly the origin of the framework, which is to provide some directional guidance to say, look really good stuff out there, but we have a chance of screwing it up royally for our entire sector if we don't do it well.
• 20:01
  Speaker 3: I mean we have seen, you know, in specifically fundraising.
• 20:05
  Speaker 3: Ai is around fundraising.
• 20:06
  Speaker 3: So, like keeping it very narrow there, the reason was essentially because fundraising is what powers missions.
• 20:13
  Speaker 3: Right, I mean, it really doesn't matter, you know, if you're using AI and your mission to support your mission, it goes back to that.
• 20:19
  Speaker 3: You know, no money, no mission kind of you know catchphrase.
• 20:22
  Speaker 3: And so that was our whole.
• 20:25
  Speaker 3: Philosophy is like let's narrow in on this area, an area that is largely underrepresented in the international scope of like of the economy, and we felt like if we don't do something and we don't provide directional guidance around responsible use of fundraising, it will be provided to us.
• 20:43
  Speaker 3: And so you know, we have seen really great examples of people you've had Gail Roberts before, I think, in like Larkin Street using GPT almost out of the gate for things, and we have we've been working in AI for many years and clients that are developing such level of precision that they would have never been able to before.
• 21:05
  Speaker 3: I think we've only scratched the surface in how nonprofits really will be able to use this technology in the future.
• 21:13
  Speaker 3: As the barriers for entry become less because the cost becomes less, the tools become more accessible.
• 21:18
  Speaker 3: This is the point and I think everyone's highlighting this.
• 21:22
  Speaker 3: This is a point where you have to lean in.
• 21:24
  Speaker 3: You putting your head in the sand will not help you in the future.
• 21:28
  Speaker 3: In fact, it will have the opposite effect.
• 21:30
  Speaker 3: And lean in.
• 21:32
  Speaker 3: But to Mina's point, be responsible and thoughtful about what you're choosing to do.
• 21:37
  Speaker 3: And what's unique about our sector is ask everyone.
• 21:41
  Speaker 3: Ask everyone around.
• 21:42
  Speaker 3: I think you know the summit is a great example of you know 30 different speakers, all coming from different levels of like expert to brand newbie, and providing you know content out there that we can all learn from each other, from One, just one tiny thing that I'll say.
• 21:58
  Speaker 5: that also, you know, I think goes to the summit piece too is like one of my hopes is that this starts a trend around more vulnerability, around what we don't know, and curiosity together to explore those themes.
• 22:14
  Speaker 5: Because, you know, the summit has two primary tracks a practitioner track for nonprofit professionals and people using the AI tech, but it also has a platform track and Nathan was alluding to this before too.
• 22:26
  Speaker 5: Like we're seeing a lot of questions from platforms about how they should be thinking about integrating AI into their tech and I think that level of vulnerability a lot.
• 22:36
  Speaker 5: We see so much perfectionism and performance in our sector and I think to have a space to come and say like, wow, this is moving so fast that like there are really no experts here and everybody is at a different phase of their learning journey, certainly, but there's so much that we all don't know and we're trying to figure out.
• 22:55
  Speaker 5: I hope that that creates a trend that goes beyond AI in our sector around community learning.
• 23:02
  Speaker 1: I love that, and now I mean you all both alluded to this framework.
• 23:05
  Speaker 1: We've talked about that.
• 23:06
  Speaker 1: That was kind of like the central document that everyone's pouring into, and let me just read some of the headings just to give listeners a scope of what this includes Everything from like privacy and security to inclusiveness and transparency, collaboration, social impact and social sustainability.
• 23:22
  Speaker 1: So love those headings, and within that there's a lot of like instructives.
• 23:26
  Speaker 1: Let's talk about this framework.
• 23:28
  Speaker 1: I mean, first, how did it really come into be, and then how can we use this?
• 23:33
  Speaker 1: You know what's the takeaway?
• 23:34
  Speaker 1: What do you do with this framework as a practitioner or as a platform?
• 23:38
  Speaker 3: The framework is.
• 23:40
  Speaker 3: I'm really proud of it.
• 23:41
  Speaker 3: I'm a.
• 23:42
  Speaker 3: It's a testament to our sector and people willing to being willing to come together from all areas, competitors and friends alike, to do something for the long-term benefit.
• 23:52
  Speaker 3: I it's also the hardest thing I've ever done in my entire career.
• 23:55
  Speaker 3: There's like literally no doubt.
• 23:56
  Speaker 3: If there's one single thing I, you know, really grossly underestimated how difficult it would be.
• 24:02
  Speaker 3: It was this, and not surprising, because when I think back on it, it's like you're trying to create something that could be internationally accepted, so across borders and cultures, that provides directional guidance to, to something, a better way of doing business, like I just if I thought too much about it, I probably would have never started this endeavor.
• 24:22
  Speaker 3: Emilia said, like you know, 93 people ended up jumping in 1700 emails later, lots of phone calls I mean, mina is a really big part of it and where we in a very collective you know this is truly this collective experience where we came together and debated like, is this too far reaching, is it too too loose?
• 24:43
  Speaker 3: And I mean and frankly, came up with 10 tenants that we think you know represent a lot of other international frameworks and there's like a thousand of them, and that's how we started with just reviewing and reviewing and reviewing and now I sit on an international board for IT standards and representing the nonprofit sector in that space.
• 25:02
  Speaker 3: But at the time the fear was like, if we don't create our own framework, it'll be created for us, and that is absolutely 100% true and it's important to note that.
• 25:11
  Speaker 3: Like that trust is important to society in large.
• 25:14
  Speaker 3: Like people talk about trust in all frameworks, but the way that trust is represented, like, say, in even the White House and within NIST and Ames and other big frameworks that exist, trust represents to, represents around AI serving humanity's greatest interest that's how it's usually portrayed, which, if you think about it, relates to essentially making sure that robots don't kill people.
• 25:36
  Speaker 3: Like that's the level of trust that the White House is really trying to instill in their framework.
• 25:41
  Speaker 3: And when we think about trust and really when it came to this conclusion, like we have to build our own because trust is literally the lifeblood of the nonprofit industry.
• 25:50
  Speaker 3: It's essentially how there's no nonprofit industry if there's not trust.
• 25:54
  Speaker 3: And so that's where I think, when you know and Meena was a big part in the very beginning of this like when we decided we had our own framework, we knew that in all aspects that had to prioritize trust, and so it does in some profound ways, like explainability.
• 26:09
  Speaker 3: Which is different in our view is that there shouldn't be a black box in the nonprofit sector, that in the private sector, netflix and Amazon aren't going to show you their algorithm because that's their intellectual property.
• 26:21
  Speaker 3: But how do you trust something that you can interrogate and that you can't explain?
• 26:25
  Speaker 3: And so the biggest nuance that people ask me, the defining characteristic of the fundraising AI framework, is that we have a much stronger emphasis on trust through those other aspects.
• 26:37
  Speaker 3: Of course, ethics and privacy and security and equitability are all important, but that explainability and being able to interrogate and not promote black boxes is really special, like it's something that you just don't see in other frameworks.
• 26:53
  Speaker 2: You guys, you say something like a framework and I think people just mentally go into a space of like here's the rubric and this is a safe place to land.
• 27:04
  Speaker 2: And so I thank you all for doing that, because I remember the one question I asked in April in that first conversation, and it was about how are we going to make this open source, how are we going to make it accessible from the tiniest nonprofit to the nonprofit that has endless amounts of resources?
• 27:24
  Speaker 2: And you have built something so accessible, beautiful and trustworthy and I just want to know, like, who's killing it right now with this?
• 27:32
  Speaker 2: Who is like kicking butt in the AI world of nonprofit?
• 27:36
  Speaker 2: Can you guys just like shoot some examples of some cool stuff that you've seen?
• 27:41
  Speaker 2: That has just really stuck with you and you thought good on you.
• 27:44
  Speaker 2: Let's give some shout outs to some people.
• 27:47
  Speaker 3: I'm happy to start with a couple.
• 27:49
  Speaker 3: I mean they're not surprised because I've done a lot of public speaking with them John Thompson at Children's Hospital of Philadelphia.
• 27:56
  Speaker 3: I mean we've done stuff at Amazon and Salesforce and other places.
• 27:59
  Speaker 3: But what I think is special about it is that Monica is a CDO at CHOP, is not a technologist, but she also knows that.
• 28:09
  Speaker 3: She knows what happens if she doesn't try new things.
• 28:11
  Speaker 3: I mean, the data is pretty pronounced, pretty stark in terms of, like I'll quote the generosity crisis but the decline in charitable participation.
• 28:20
  Speaker 3: So, as a leader who's very, very experienced not a technologist, willing to accept where her limitations are but to say I'm going to build and empower a team to explore and to fail fast and try new things has been to me the greatest testament and in the end result I mean I've been able to work with them for years and for them being it's that culture mindset of, like you know, being willing to adapt and try and test and invest in philanthropic R&D that you know, when the most heartwarming moment for me was hearing a fundraiser at CHOP had called me one day a 20 year fundraiser like, extremely accomplished, done, extremely well, called and said I've closed more gifts faster to higher average dollar than any time in my career, and like I'm like, oh my gosh, that's my cry moment because it's like it works, like we know it works as mathematically, but like it's the end and how it's changed his confidence of going into meetings and, like you know, knowing that the AI algorithm did its thing by, you know, essentially identifying people that knew him better or knew the organization better.
• 29:35
  Speaker 3: So it's really a combination of all these things.
• 29:38
  Speaker 3: I mean the culture, and we have lots of those clients that are just remarkable but CHOP just stands out of, because they're never going to be satisfied.
• 29:45
  Speaker 3: They're always going to be pushing the next to the next thing and the next thing and what's next, and being willing to be wrong and to admit you know where they were wrong and be like we tried this and that was crazy.
• 29:56
  Speaker 3: So we moved over to this and it's just been really rewarding to watch, to see them kind of continue to evolve.
• 30:03
  Speaker 2: And I'm obsessed with CHOP's marketing.
• 30:04
  Speaker 2: Can I just say that as an aside?
• 30:06
  Speaker 2: It's so great, fantastic, they do such a good job.
• 30:09
  Speaker 2: What about you?
• 30:10
  Speaker 5: Mal.
• 30:10
  Speaker 5: Well, so I'm not going to say the organization's name in this, but I'll say that, you know, some of the stories that I've been hearing that have been really surprising have actually been about failure and about how leaders have embraced and accepted and tried again after trying things that didn't work.
• 30:28
  Speaker 5: And so, yeah, so I just talking to like the CMO of an organization that is, you know, a very like kind of star child nonprofit, and hearing about a campaign that where they used AI in a way they had never used it before and it didn't perform the way that they had hoped, and the response from the CEO or executive director was wow, like we learned so much from this.
• 30:57
  Speaker 5: Like what else?
• 30:58
  Speaker 5: How can we think about using this tool with these changes, with these things?
• 31:02
  Speaker 5: And so I think there's like the instant success stories or the early success stories that are really incredible, but I'm also inspired by the people who are not expecting their first round of anything to go to shoot them to the stars and are embracing the learning that comes with the utilization of new tools and are iterating and trying from there.
• 31:28
  Speaker 4: What makes this conversation most accessible is not this framework being on the website.
• 31:37
  Speaker 4: I mean, yes, it's helping a lot.
• 31:38
  Speaker 4: I mean this framework being open and have everybody going and clicking a button, yes, but what makes it most accessible is our own power, our own willingness to engage with it, our own openness to say, let me try it, it doesn't work, that's okay, I'm still going to go and talk to this other person about it.
• 31:57
  Speaker 4: That is going to make it most accessible because the language that we have in the framework it's very vanilla and it's deliberately intentionally kept at a language which it can be taken and contextualized for our own use cases.
• 32:11
  Speaker 4: From where we are coming in, you know whether we are, regardless of our roles, expertise and interests, we are going to be part of these algorithms more and more.
• 32:19
  Speaker 4: So that framework is really for us to be made our own.
• 32:22
  Speaker 4: So this work of this summit, yes, it's going to be amazing, because I've been part of amazing Alan Nathan's team for a long time, but it's only the beginning.
• 32:33
  Speaker 4: This is only the start.
• 32:34
  Speaker 4: What happens after with this framework, when people take that document and say, okay, point number five, seven and eight?
• 32:42
  Speaker 4: This is what we are seeing from this one tool and this is how we want to make sure that we are always centering trust and transparency in the work.
• 32:50
  Speaker 4: That is what's going to make it the most accessible.
• 32:54
  Speaker 4: That's what's going to create those winning stories that are sustainable for the long term, to again create for others to learn from it.
• 33:02
  Speaker 4: So not really giving examples, but just sharing thoughts.
• 33:05
  Speaker 1: No, I love that.
• 33:06
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I think it's going to allow us to dream at a bigger scale too, with creating that new level of accessibility.
• 33:11
  Speaker 1: So I feel like an elephant in the room.
• 33:13
  Speaker 1: We haven't talked about is just like some of the ethical concerns, and, mina, you've leaned heavily into this work.
• 33:19
  Speaker 1: You came onto our podcast just specifically to talk about this before, but a lot of leaders listen to this podcast in the social impact space.
• 33:27
  Speaker 1: What are some of the greatest challenges and ethical concerns that we should be attuned to as we start to implement some of these ideologies into our work?
• 33:36
  Speaker 4: I always come to this question with two points, john, but I want to say a specific conversation I just had at my recent conference.
• 33:45
  Speaker 4: What came out of the conversation was again this I asked how are people using AI?
• 33:51
  Speaker 4: And some of them raised their hands, gave their specific use cases.
• 33:55
  Speaker 4: I'm using it in a campaign dashboard.
• 33:57
  Speaker 4: I'm using it for generating donor communication.
• 34:00
  Speaker 4: One individual said I'm using it to just bring my board member and have more conversations.
• 34:06
  Speaker 4: I think that was a winning moment for me for this conversation Just having more conversation.
• 34:12
  Speaker 4: That's it, because we don't know what questions to ask when it comes to ethics, and it's not just related to technology.
• 34:19
  Speaker 4: When the word fundraising, ai comes up, the focus, the goal, the why is still fundraising, the word fundraising.
• 34:28
  Speaker 4: It hasn't shifted to AI, it's still the word for the reason of the fundraising we are here.
• 34:33
  Speaker 4: So we need those conversations to happen where we can acknowledge together what questions really do ask.
• 34:39
  Speaker 4: And for me, as kind of the status scientist had comes back to okay, what data are you bringing back to your AI solutions?
• 34:49
  Speaker 4: What are you using?
• 34:50
  Speaker 4: What are you creating?
• 34:51
  Speaker 4: And then question two is whose voice are you centering when you are designing your programs and then interpreting it and then again creating data out of those interpretations and bringing it back to the system.
• 35:04
  Speaker 4: It's really not a linear chain, it's a cycle.
• 35:06
  Speaker 4: We do some actions that create data and feed it back to the system, and if we want to think about ethical concerns, we need to have more conversations to figure out how do we center community.
• 35:18
  Speaker 4: We need to figure out what data are we feeding and then we need to understand whose voice on the table is the loudest and that's not the only voice, hopefully that we are centering in our programs.
• 35:30
  Speaker 3: Can I?
• 35:30
  Speaker 3: I just have to because it's like it for probably me and I is the number one question that gets asked.
• 35:35
  Speaker 3: I literally got on a call with someone in Australia yesterday and, without even knowing him, he's like is this ethical?
• 35:40
  Speaker 3: And I think it's interesting because when you peel back the onion, of course it depends on what and how you're using right, what data are you using, what are you using it for?
• 35:50
  Speaker 3: But I also, you know, ask the question like well, how do you fundraise?
• 35:53
  Speaker 3: Now, you know, and at the end of the day, it's like well, we identify wealthy people and we convince them to give.
• 35:57
  Speaker 4: Well, where do you get your wealth data from?
• 35:59
  Speaker 3: You know, which is largely representative of older white men, you know, and so, to be honest, I will say that a majority of fundraising practices over the last many years have been unethical.
• 36:09
  Speaker 3: I think AI actually has the ability to become much more ethical by done responsibly, by identifying and removing bias from models and being much more holistic than much more precise, of just using, you know, people's wealth and so on.
• 36:25
  Speaker 3: But the other aspect of this is, I think, the other question that people should be asking, like are there things that are ethical but not beneficial?
• 36:32
  Speaker 3: You know and this goes back to my earliest, you know, experiences with chatGPT is sounding authentic, the same as being authentic.
• 36:40
  Speaker 3: We know that chatGPT can actually, in their cases that I've seen people write year-end appeals that have performed better than any appeal they've ever done, and all they did was copy and paste.
• 36:49
  Speaker 3: Maybe that's not unethical because they're just essentially using a tool to help them write an appeal, but is it beneficial to the long-term viability to our sector?
• 36:59
  Speaker 3: That's a harder question that we have to really, I think, pause now and wrestle with, because I think ethics in some way are more transparent to overcome between.
• 37:09
  Speaker 3: You know, robots and people working together to identify and mitigate bias, but wrestling with the hard things of like.
• 37:16
  Speaker 3: Is this ethical but not beneficial?
• 37:18
  Speaker 3: That takes a harder stance on like.
• 37:22
  Speaker 3: Well, how is my job evaluated Like?
• 37:26
  Speaker 3: Am I motivated to just fill the leaky bucket?
• 37:28
  Speaker 3: Or am I getting paid to protect a vibrant philanthropic industry for years to come?
• 37:34
  Speaker 3: Those are really the important questions I think we have to start really getting into.
• 37:39
  Speaker 2: Y'all, I am shook right now.
• 37:43
  Speaker 2: I'm not kidding, I am having sort of a reverse existentialism of thinking back to all of those moments of discomfort in my career where my eyebrow quirked because things didn't feel right, but that was the way they were always done.
• 38:00
  Speaker 2: And I have this question just pinging around in my brain right now that says is AI, and responsible AI, going to be the thing that helps us ethically write the ship of our work, of our practices, of the way we value human beings and our time and our pay and our power?
• 38:23
  Speaker 2: I think you are really throwing down a very interesting observation that clearly my nervous system thinks is correct, because I believe that this could be more than an opportunity for integrating your tech or improving your workflows.
• 38:42
  Speaker 2: This could be an opportunity for us to truly get into why the work matters and how we do the work in the ways that we do.
• 38:51
  Speaker 2: So, wow, thank you so much for that, and I know we got to create space to talk about the summit, and so I just want to throw it out there.
• 39:00
  Speaker 2: What can we expect at this summit?
• 39:03
  Speaker 2: Give us a couple highlights and talk to our listeners just about what they're going to experience and see when they come.
• 39:11
  Speaker 5: So the summit, as we've been saying, is on October 23rd and 24th and it's interesting when you put together a virtual summit.
• 39:20
  Speaker 5: I think a lot of virtual summits are designed with the idea that they want to keep folks engaged for those two days.
• 39:27
  Speaker 5: They want it to feel like sort of an in-person, that cohesive in-person event where you're going from session to session to session together.
• 39:36
  Speaker 5: Because of the level of complication of this topic and the fact that we really want the sessions to meet folks where they're at, across this wide spectrum, we've actually designed all.
• 39:50
  Speaker 5: So all of the sessions are like 20 minute TED Talk style sessions with five minute Q&As.
• 39:57
  Speaker 5: There will be links to tons of research to take your learning to the next level after that.
• 40:03
  Speaker 5: But we are thinking we're really focusing on the high engagement topic, specific sessions throughout each day, knowing and expecting and actually encouraging that people come to the sessions that are the most relevant to them in the moment that they're in to their positional leadership inside the organization.
• 40:24
  Speaker 5: So you might come to a session at 9 AM Monday morning and then the next session you come to might be at 1 PM and then the next session you might come to might be the next day at 11 AM, and so we really want people to treat this more as a menu than a like.
• 40:40
  Speaker 5: I have to make this two day commitment.
• 40:43
  Speaker 5: I think the agenda and the narrowing down of topics has been maybe one of the hardest things I've ever done in my career, because Pick your favorite child, because every I mean not just the selection of speakers, which, like the level of wisdom that we have in the speaker lineup for this summit, is blowing my mind.
• 41:04
  Speaker 5: I'm so excited to learn from all of these folks.
• 41:07
  Speaker 5: I also think the other thing to know is everything is going to be recorded and available through the original platform for 30 days.
• 41:14
  Speaker 5: Then we'll be moved to a resource hub.
• 41:16
  Speaker 5: On fundraising AI.
• 41:17
  Speaker 5: We know nonprofit leaders are busy.
• 41:19
  Speaker 5: We understand we are in Q4.
• 41:21
  Speaker 5: It felt super important to meet the moment right now because of how quickly AI is moving, but we know that there's a lot going on during those two days, and so we expect this to kickstart our learning, to become a hub for our learning.
• 41:37
  Speaker 5: And then I think Nathan can talk more about this piece too, and he can tell you how crazy he thought I was when I first proposed it.
• 41:45
  Speaker 5: But one of the things that's really exciting to me also about the summit and the sessions are these panels that we've put together of sponsors sitting together on panels to talk about these really critical topics.
• 41:58
  Speaker 5: And so we have a panel that includes BlackBod and Salesforce and Microsoft and Amazon sitting together to talk about trust and ethics in technology and the role that technology plays in protecting the sector.
• 42:13
  Speaker 5: And when I first said I wanted to do this, I think people thought maybe I was you know.
• 42:18
  Speaker 5: I think people thought maybe I was completely off my rocker, but I think it's something that we're incredibly proud of and Nathan can speak more to this too because I think this represents this moment that we are in and how much we all deeply believe that our success is tied together and that the urgency and need is greater than ever and we have to put the other pieces behind to really provide this sector with the level of education and guidance and support that they deserve.
• 42:57
  Speaker 5: And so that panel is just sort of an example of, I think, the spirit of the entire summit, which is that we really want it to feel like everybody coming together to support this sector at this moment.
• 43:14
  Speaker 3: I would say there are two things that have made all of this possible.
• 43:16
  Speaker 3: The first was at that coffee meeting in New Orleans when Mallory came up to me completely and probably regrets every second of that time is to say what can I do to help.
• 43:28
  Speaker 3: Then proceeded to text Mina, I guess if you had really asked me, in my mind I was focused on the framework and that was going to be a big lift.
• 43:37
  Speaker 3: I was thinking, yeah, let's do a summit and we'll probably have like I mean literally, if you had asked me, we'd have four or six speakers maybe, and it would be a couple hours and panels.
• 43:48
  Speaker 3: Mallory comes at it with this complete big thinking, bet the farm risk taking attitude of like let's go big or go home, like I don't want to waste my time on that, let's talk about scale.
• 43:59
  Speaker 3: And that is ingredient number one.
• 44:04
  Speaker 3: And when she texted me about I don't know a week ago, mallory, where she's like I don't even know how this got so big, and I had to call her on her crap, because I was like this is big because of me, this is big because if it wasn't me, it was you and truly like, and I'm so grateful for that.
• 44:24
  Speaker 3: And two, which is just a complete shocker and a testament to our sector is that when we decided to do this, it's like well, let's raise some money.
• 44:34
  Speaker 3: And I mean we got on phones and we started dialing for dollars and literally in four weeks we raised like $300,000.
• 44:40
  Speaker 3: Like it was truly like you know Staryn Bird, who you know, salesforce, saying we want to be the lead sponsor, debbie Thomas from Microsoft, kelly Heck from Amazon, kerry Cobb from BlackBot, like all of them, like all of them are just like if we don't do this now, it won't signify the importance of this moment to our sector.
• 45:00
  Speaker 3: And so they put their money up front and that just was a catalyst and inspires so many other people to come along and sponsor.
• 45:07
  Speaker 3: And then they took it to the next level in what Mallory was saying.
• 45:11
  Speaker 3: They got on a panel together and it was the same exact attitude If we don't do this and do this together, it won't signify the importance of this moment to our sector.
• 45:20
  Speaker 3: And so we've just seen that throughout all of this, which is truly a testament to our sector being so different than the private sector, and to me that's got to be the most proud moment of all of it.
• 45:31
  Speaker 3: I mean, mallory was right, like she was right for we're thinking big and like kind of doing the unconventional and it's worked and it's, I think, inspired a whole different type and level of cooperation and conversation that we've had.
• 45:45
  Speaker 3: And gosh, like that's ridiculous, like it's just been really awesome to see.
• 45:51
  Speaker 3: It's just like I'm blown away by it.
• 45:53
  Speaker 1: Who is surprised that the creator of the Power Partners formula knows how to get the partners aligned for this moment, and there's no way.
• 46:00
  Speaker 2: There's no reason that we should play small with this.
• 46:03
  Speaker 2: It's too damn important for us to play small, and so thank you for being bold, thank you for being courageous and thank you to everybody who stepped up to fund it, because we all know we've got to have funders to be able to source this, collect this and socialize this that's amazing and to make it free, and I think we've emphasized that.
• 46:22
  Speaker 1: But this is a free event, so there's no barrier to entry.
• 46:26
  Speaker 1: It's available on demand after, before the event.
• 46:29
  Speaker 1: So, fundraisingaiai slash summit, go there register.
• 46:34
  Speaker 1: Okay, y'all you know how we ran out these podcasts and it is hard to stop this community vibe.
• 46:39
  Speaker 1: I'm feeling with you guys right now.
• 46:40
  Speaker 1: But I want to run this conversation out with a one good thing, and I'm going to ask it to be in the bent of AI in a sense, because I feel like there's a lot of opportunities in front of us.
• 46:49
  Speaker 1: Sometimes we get paralyzed because of the opportunities, but what's an opportunity or one good thing that you could leave with our listeners today about where to lean in on this conversation, or a tool or a tip or whatever you got?
• 47:01
  Speaker 5: Okay, I'll use a tool that I use with other things, but I think you know we've talked a lot about the natural overwhelm that folks might be feeling in the fear they might be feeling an uncertainty, and a strategy that I teach a lot around down regulation of the nervous system is just to say to yourself when you're feeling that level of overwhelm is like that makes sense.
• 47:20
  Speaker 5: And so I think, like, as you move into signing up for the summit, going to the summit, attending a session, whatever it is, and you feel that grumble in your belly or that drop in your belly and you feel that, oh, maybe I'm not ready for this or I don't know enough to learn this or I'm not good at technology to just say to yourself like it makes sense that you feel nervous and scared and overwhelmed.
• 47:43
  Speaker 5: This is new and scary and overwhelming, and 90% of the people who are going to be in that virtual room with you feel the same way, including me.
• 47:52
  Speaker 5: And so I think just saying like, literally using that tool, that makes sense, it makes sense.
• 47:59
  Speaker 5: I'm feeling overwhelmed and I can still do this.
• 48:01
  Speaker 5: You know, I can still take one step forward.
• 48:04
  Speaker 5: That's my one good thing.
• 48:06
  Speaker 1: So good, mina, what have you got?
• 48:08
  Speaker 4: To me, anybody who's listening and going to join the summit obviously is that you.
• 48:14
  Speaker 4: That's two about two things.
• 48:16
  Speaker 4: The summit is about two things.
• 48:17
  Speaker 4: One is individual accountability and collective power.
• 48:21
  Speaker 4: So, yes, it's going to be very scary and yes, it's going to be overwhelming, including the speakers.
• 48:27
  Speaker 4: They have come through a journey of trying to explore this topic through different angles.
• 48:31
  Speaker 4: It's not all sessions are going to be the same, but it's about just this individual accountability what can I do for a future I want to live in?
• 48:41
  Speaker 4: This is one question I want people to explore and answer as they are navigating through different sessions so that you are joining at 9 am or all the way up to the end of the sessions, and I just want you to answer this one question what can I do for a future I want to live in?
• 48:58
  Speaker 4: So that's my one good thing.
• 49:00
  Speaker 3: Yeah, I'm so grateful to be able to learn from Mallory and Mina, and every time we connect, I get better in my response, because my response now would be very different.
• 49:09
  Speaker 3: I would say, you know, really it goes back to what they're sharing but to be vulnerable and to recognize that you're not alone and you know this was represented to me a few weeks ago at a call with the CEO of a CRM company and this conversation was you know, I feel like I'm losing ground, I don't understand, and the more I don't understand, the more I'm afraid to ask, because it feels like I'm even dumber and she's just very vulnerable with me about this and I'm like, well, let's create some safe space where we can ask any questions.
• 49:41
  Speaker 3: And I think that that vulnerability like once you realize to Mallory's point, like you're not alone, you know, you understand that you have individual accountability to Mina's point, is that responsible AI is everyone's responsibility it's just to show up and to lean in and to be vulnerable, because we know this about our sector that people have your back, that people will be there to help guide you, and so I just think I'm so encouraged by all of this and just like people just showing up and leaning in.
• 50:12
  Speaker 3: You know asking questions, being vulnerable and in recognizing that you know you're in good company.
• 50:18
  Speaker 2: Thank you for this collective community building, this collective learning.
• 50:23
  Speaker 2: You all are powering community.
• 50:25
  Speaker 2: You're empowering and we're just so dang proud to be associated with this event and this movement.
• 50:32
  Speaker 2: Let us know how we can help and, listeners, please lean in.
• 50:35
  Speaker 2: It's only going to benefit you and your mission.
• 50:37
  Speaker 1: Thank you so much, friends.
• 50:38
  Speaker 1: Thanks so much for being here.
• 50:42
  Speaker 1: Friends, and you probably hear it in our voices, but we love connecting you with the most innovative people to help you achieve more for your mission than ever before.
• 50:50
  Speaker 2: We'd love for you to come join our good community.
• 50:52
  Speaker 2: It's free and you can think of it as the after party to each podcast episode.
• 50:56
  Speaker 2: Sign up today at weareforgoodcom.
• 50:59
  Speaker 2: Backslash hello.
• 51:01
  Speaker 1: And one more thing if you love what you heard today, would you mind leaving us a podcast writing interview?
• 51:05
  Speaker 1: It means the world to us and your support helps more people find this community.
• 51:08
  Speaker 1: Thanks so much, friends.
• 51:10
  Speaker 1: Can't wait to hear our next conversation.