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BPS 311: How to Raise $325 Million in Film Financing with Wayne Godfrey · Bulletproof Screenwriting™ Podcast

• You are listening to the IFH podcast Network. For more amazing filmmaking and screenwriting podcasts, just go to IFH podcast network dot com. Welcome to the Bulletproof Screenwriting Podcast, Episode number three eleven. The movie industry is brutal, It is dangerous. It is for most soul destroying. Creating art, music, books, films, etc. Can be a beautiful and liberating thing to do. But trying to sell art, well, that's the movie business. There's a few winners and lots and lots of losers. Ronnie Apotheker broadcasting from a dark, windowless room in Hollywood when we really should be working on that next draft. It's the Bulletproof Screenwriting Podcast, showing you the craft and business of screenwriting while teaching you how to make your screenplay bulletproof. And here's your host, Alex Ferrari. Welcome, Welcome to another episode of the Bulletproof Screenwriting Podcast. I am your humble host. Let's fury now. Today's show is sponsored by Bulletproof script Coverage Now. Unlike other script coverage services, Bulletproof script Coverage actually focuses on the kind of project you are, in the goals of the project you are, so we actually break it down by three categories micro budget, indie film, market, and studio film. There's no reason to get coverage from a reader that used to reading temp bowl movies when your movie is going to be done for one hundred thousand dollars, and we wanted to focus on that. At Bulletproof Script Coverage, our readers have worked with Marvel Studios, CIA, WME, NBC, HBO, Disney, Scott Free, Warner Brothers, The Blacklist, and many many more. So if you need your screenplay or TV script covered by professional readers, head on over to cover my screenplay dot com. Now, today, on the show Guys, we have film producer Wayne Godfried. Now. Wayne has produced over one hundred and twenty five independent in films, working with directors like Martin Scorsese, Robert Rodriguez, Jackie Chan, Joe Carnahan, Taylor Hackford, Robert de Niro, and many many more. He has invested more than three hundred million dollars across aggregated production budgets that exceed over one point two five billion dollars over the last three to four years alone. Now Wayne and I sit down and talk shop talk about what it really takes to get your movie finance, what the marketplace is looking for, how he got into the business, and the truth of what it takes to make it in this business. So, without any further ado, please enjoy my conversation with Wayne Godfreed. I like to welcome to the show Wayne Godfrey Man. How you doing, Wayne, Alex Really good to be here. Thank you so much for having me. No, thank you so much for being on the show. Man. I'm excited to get into the weeds with you about You're very interesting career so far in the film industry, and you're a young guy. You're we're of similar vintages, but you know, you've done a lot for a guy of your age, and what you've done in the business is pretty pretty extraordinary. So, um, but before we got into all of that, how did you get into this ridiculous business? Oh wow? Um, well, you say I'm a young guy, but yeah, I can't even remember that. So no, it was I was fortunate enough to start as a runner. So I began really my whole career at a post company in the UK called gold Crest, one of the post houses in the UK. And you know, I started one day by knocking on the door putting my CV in, needing a job, and you know, in London and trying to really figure out what the whole concept of movie making was all about. And I actually was a bit of a DJ back then, so I was very interested in sound and the behind the scenes of finishing movies and began being a post runner at gold Quest in London and from there learn about the business of making films. And I had fantastic teachers and John Quest did, Tony Murphy, Stephen Johnson, who were these old school, um you know, indie film guys who were um, you know, expert teachers of showing how to take a movie, take it to a market, I can package it up and sell it to a bunch of buyers and actually monetizes what a movie is. And this was a whole new world for me as a young kid, because we just as you go and buy them. You didn't think about how they got there in the first place. And this was a whole new kind of education. And so that's how it will began, really as a runner right from the bottom up. Now, So the the concept of like packaging a film and making money with a film is so I mean, look, the film business is the only business in the world where you could spend one hundred million dollars on a product and it's worthless. I mean, it's the only like you spend one hundred million dollars on a building. You got a building, you would think, and also a lot of a lot of you know, kind of thought and market research and care and probably preselling goes into identifying whether you should spend one hundred million on that building in the first place, right as opposed to maybe developing it in a little silo with a few of your mates thinking this is a great idea. But no, I think I think you know, there's different ends of the film spectrum. One hundred million dollars. Blockbusters are immense businesses in their own rights, and unfortunately I'm not in that arena. I've never been in that arena. It's an amazing arena. They make amazing movies. But I'm in the other end of the arena, the intro film end. But whether it's one hundred million or a million, it's still significant amount of money that you are I don't want to say gambling, but you are rolling the dice on really, you know, putting together these these businesses and establishing whether or not can you find an audience. And that's a very interesting proposition. And you know, I think as a producer you're ultimately creating businesses. Every film is their own business, right exactly, because you know, you could spend a million dollars on a movie. But it's like you need when you when you build. When you build a cookie, you bake a cookie on the smallest spectrum. You you make a package of cookies, you need to find customer base for that cookie, and generally most human beings on the planet will enjoy that cookie because cookies are cookies. It's sugar, it's flour, it's milk, and all that kind of stuff. With a film, it's so more complex, and now in today's world is even more complex because and as I'm sure you know from the moments when you started off to today, there's a few more movies in the marketplace now, so it's been diluted with a lot of for lack of a better word, crap from a lot of things that might might need to be there might not the need to be either. But even if they're all amazing films, it's still a tremendous amount of content that you're fighting for attention, so how do you kind of break through with some of your projects. Just to that point, I think the other thing to think about is you're not just competing against the new round of moves, you're competing with every movie that's ever been made ever so Jazz Star Wars, it's all available to click in the button now for free or very affordably with the streaming subscription model. So suddenly what we've this incredible shift in consumption that's occurred over the last few years with the plethora of movies that are available the catalog as well as the new content. It is incredibly competitive, but that's a great opportunity as well, because whereas the barrier to entry was you know, quite high to make a movie and you get distribution and get your product out there, and in some respects now the availability of resources and technology and reduction in cost of making movies has enabled really independent filmmakers to really be able to tell a story and find an audience and find a home, which wasn't so easy many, you know, five ten years ago. But again, the key question is how do you identify what story is the right story to make? And how do you stand out in the crowd. I guess that's a that's a key question. And unfortunately I don't have the exact dancer. If I did, we'll be making all those movies. But that's the thing, there's like no real there's no real formula. Like yeah, like a cookie, Ye, a cookie is a recipe. It's not hard, and it's been done a million times. It's now just about maybe some nuances and marketing and packaging and things like that, maybe some new ingredients and things. And but movies, every movie is a new beast, a new thing. Look at it as Alex, like the three pillars of every movie there are there. You need three pillars. Well, you don't need three. You need to story is the start. I don't really care how much you're spending on it, who's in it. If your story is golden, you have a chance. But it's a bit wobbly. It's one. So you need another pillar, and that will be maybe capital money, investment budget. So if you had a load of money and a really good story but no one you know in it, you've got to you know, you've got to shut you get that third pillar in which is your talent, your recognizable names, your quality director, whether they're new or old. You know you've got a solid foundation of building the bricks of that house. Three pillars, a foundation of a great chance of making a successful movie. We'll be right back after a word from our sponsor, and now back to the show. Now you move one of the pillars or two of the pillars. You had a load of money and no story and no talent, you can make it. It's a bit, we'll believe, but you might get it made. Similarly, you can have the best actors in the world, no story, no money. It can be challenging. So it's all about finding the right dynamic and the right I guess the balance of story, talent and capital right and and well, well let me ask you. So I get asked constantly by filmmakers about how do you get money for your movies? How do you raise financing for your films? And I always tell them a very similar thing to what you say, is like, you know, it all depends. And it's also the genre involved here. So there's that there's that other pillar, which is genre. Because if you have all of those things and it's a drama, it's a much tougher sell to sell it. Internationally depends on this talent. Of course, that's the thing with all of this stuff. It's all variable. Like it's like, oh, well, Meryl strips in it, But I've seen movies with Meryl Streep in it that don't do money in the box office even though it's Meryl Street and the story it was good and things like that. So what advice do you have for filmmakers who are trying to raise financing for there are half a million dollar budget movie or a quarter million dollar budget movie, or a million dollar budget movie. What advice do you have in today's marketplace, which is pretty insane. It's for financing? It is, it is, it is. I mean, that's a really good question. I think there are a number of variables that one has to consider with what's the best advice for that question? So the first thing is what is the budget level? What are you trying to achieve? What are your expectations both for you as the filmmaker and for your investors. So that's a very important thing to start with. Just like any business, a movie is a business. You are starting a new company. So this new company has an objective make the asset and distribute it to hopefully generate a return on investment. So what is the most efficient way to make it? What is the right and appropriate budget level? That is a normal thing that people kind of jump over. Some movie are made too small and some movies are made too big. What is the appropriate budget level for the movie? And that is very much an equation of where is its home? Where would it land? Where do you think the best opportunity is to monetize the movie. We are in a golden age of distribution with the streamers and broadcasters, but that doesn't make it any easier to license to them or to sell to them. You still need a quality story, you still need to package it, You still need to potentially have a great execution. But you know that your upside is capped. You've not got that box office you know, a super sky high potential return. You pretty much have a limited or capped return when you license to a streamer because they buy it for a fixed amount of money and doesn't matter whether one person watches it or you know, everyone watches it. You're pretty much getting that a fixed amount of money. So what is your expectation for the movie. What is the direction of travel? And I think raising in this market requires, like I mean, it's never been easy. Let's be honest. It just it's never been easy to raise money. So you have to look at my view. It's always about and my whole approach has always been about offsetting as much risk as possible for any investor or lender entering into an investment in a film. As a strategy, the hat I wear has always been low risk and and and kind of get in, get out, and do another one. And it's a different strategy. And there it's not the only strategy, not the best strategy. It's just the way that my head works. I always look to pre sell or to offset risk with any kind of quantifiable revenue stream which may affect my upside. It may reduce the potential of the home run, but it is going to certainly reduce the likelihood of a wipeout. So to use that analogy, I love the whole run analogy because so many filmmakers go up to bat and they're always expecting the whole run, They're always expecting the box office hit. But what's not sexy is the bunt, the single, the base hits, stealing a base, pushing another man a base at the end of the day. You have runs coming in, runs coming in? Is it as sexy as a Grand Slam? Is it asgressive as sexy as a Grand Slam? With everybody on base? No, I'm getting people buying T shirts with my name on it, you know, and want to grow up after the man the game, and I'm not. I'm not really into faceful, so I don't really can't really play the analogy as well as someone else. Good, you know, it was football soccer. I got it all over right, right, You're absolutely right. I'm the guy who's just going to get on first base every time, but every time and as opposed to one in twenty I get a home run, which will be great in that twentieth, but the nineteen before have been hell. Now, it's okay almost if one in twenty covers the cost of the nineteen before. Because if that's a strategy, a portfolio approach where we'll put in X amount of money in seven movies on the basis that one or two will hit. The rest might not, but the one or two will cover in spades all the other investments, that's okay as well. It's just not really had my head works. So I've always gone for the ones, the singles, get in, get out, get our money back, and go again. And and that's one of the reasons I think that, you know, I've had a lot of there's been a lot of movies that I think, Yeah, it's an obscene amount. It's an obscene amount of movies you've made because I don't have that kind of you know, that emotional attachment to these and movies and the when I'm in them, they're still my babies. Don't get me wrong, I love them, but they're not about you know, nurturing this little child to fruition forever and then living with it and never letting it leave the house, and you know, staying till they're a teenager and thinking gosh, is it ever going to leave? You know, I'm kind of like, get out the house, go move on one another one. So I completely understand and and um, but I have to ask you because you know my show and I've been known to, you know, talk about the darker side of distribution, which is the predatory distribution. You've heard some of my thoughts. Okay, so yes, you've heard of a few of them. So listening to your your fantastic audio, but oh, well, oh really, oh, thank you? Which which one the US you're promoting? Film entrepreneur, the film entrepreneur, Yes, film, Oh yes, yes, it's terrific. Thank you so much. I appreciate that. But so I'm assuming with one hundred and twenty five plus projects you've done, you have been paid on time, perfectly from every single deal you've ever made, from every distributor. I mean literally sometimes they just send me myne even asked for it. It's absolutely pleasure, the pleasure. So if anyone listening, there's a lot of sarcasm right now running in the room. So so how do you what are your experiences when And I'm assuming early on in your career probably I don't know if you still run into these problems now, but um, but earlier in your career, I'm sure you had to deal with issues like this, and I'm sure you've probably dealt it throughout your career. Yeah, And it's not an issue that is, you know, isolated to any one individual. It's just the way the industry works, you know. As you said, and I hear you talk about it, we live in a very opaque industry with studio accounting. I know you use that reference Hollywood accounting, Hollywood accounting, Hollywood accounting, and you know, I mean, we'll talk about it soon, hopefully, but you know, one of the kind of drivers of starting purely my my latest company was because of my frustration with the lack of transparency and the opaque reporting and the kind of well, just the the we're dealing with millions of dollars of assets, as you talked about at the beginning, high risk ventures that require millions of dollars of investment. You spend years developing and making projects, living with them every minute in a day, and then you hand them over to a distributor and you don't hear anything for months, if not years, and then you get a one page state that's your report, that says nothing, with like a few lines, that has no detail, and you're thinking, I spent eight years of my life making this thing and this is what I get, Yeah, exactly, And it doesn't make sense, Nothing makes sense, and it drives you're mad. And so yes, I have a little bit in my bonnet about the quality of reporting. Now, that doesn't mean there aren't some fantastic agreed who agreed and spectable and communicate, And there are, and I work with a lot of them, and they are fantastic. And you know, I always try and gravitate to those sorts of individuals in all walks of business life, because people that communicate well in good, bad or in different tend to be good people to work with, even if it's bad news you're hearing about it. It's a difficult, difficult thing. And I appreciate as well that if you're juggling a lot of distributions and lots of different films, and reporting that comes from all these different sources are not instantaneous, So getting transparent reporting not even just distributor, but from the various retailers or sources of distribution are all very bitty complicated, different formats. Blah blah blah blah blah. It's hard. We'll be right back after a word from our sponsor, and now back to the show. It's complicated, so I acknowledge that, but there has to be a better way. And likewise, as as creators as participants within a movie, whether you're you know, an actor, writer, and director, costume, you know, if you have a participating movie, it should you should have in my view anyway, a regular and transparent view on how the assets performing. And you know, you find about things so late, Alex that you can't do anything to change the life cycle of that asset. What's the point of getting report nine months after the release to be told it didn't quite work in this way because the marketing wasn't very good. If it was, if you knew about it in real time, you might be able to do something about it. Hell, you might not real time, just within thirty dates, within thirty days, it would be nice. So Purely actually was well, you know one of the things that pure kind of my company, Purely Capital was, um, you know, it really came out of this idea that we deserve better transparency. We preserve a system where you can see how your assets and you know it would less opaque and more open and be more inclusive with all the beneficiaries around an asset within reason of course, right exactly, and so within purely Purely, So how explain what Purely Capital is and what it's doing and how it's kind of changing the game a little bit for for distributor, for frolmmakers. Well, one of the challenges in this changing face of consumption is we are licensing content increasingly to streaming platforms, and you may or may not be familiar or your listeners mayor familiar that actually, when you license to the likes of Flix, Amazon, Disney, Sky in the UK, IC, Comcast, all of these guys, they pay you a license fee, but typically over two to five years, so you can end up with quarterly payments, contracted payments that take quite a long time to get paid. And that is killer. If you've gone and raised that half a million, two million bucks to make that indie film, you know you've slogged to do that. You know how hard it is to raise that money. But you've achieved that goal, you've made that film. You've then done the holy thing of selling it, licensing it to Netflix, Amazon, Disney, whatever, you're winning. And then you decide and here you've got to wait thirty six months to get paid. It's like, oh, this is hard work. So purely was designed to basically completely accelerate that. So we basically give you the money today and we wait the thirty six months for Netflix, Amazon Disney to pay. So we cris the eyes that contracted income as soon as you've contracted with that spot platform or broadcast, and we accelerate the money to you bank account today, so you can refinance your investors, you can go and make your next movie, if your distributor, you can go and buy more assets. So to basically keep those businesses, keep these people moving so they don't have to keep waiting for long dated, contracted revenues. And that was that's what purity is all about. And that's brilliant because I've heard this. I've heard the same stories from from partners of mine who've sold to Netflix and and to all the streamers, and you're like, Okay, we got one hundred thousand, great, Yeah, they're going to start paying at the end of year two, and it's going to be over the next four years, and it's gonna like trickle in little by little, so that one hundred grand will essentially be maybe ten to fifteen thousand a quarter or something along those lines. And you're just like, you'll grow old before you get all the money. And it's like, oh my god, this is you write that email to your investors like hey, congratulations Netflix. By the way, I can't pay you for three years. It's like, oh what a what a what a bummer. So you know, I witnessed this problem firsthand you know, we had the great and you know it is a great you know, achievement and feeling when you license to a great home. And and this not critical on the business models of Netflix, Amazon, Disney. You know, we understand that they have to spend and they are spending billions of dollars on content to serve their global consumers and subscribers with amazing amounts of content. So if you're lucky enough to be selected and chosen, it's brilliant. But waiting for money just as a pain. It doesn't matter what walk of life. You know, you don't want to chase money, you don't want to wait for it. And that's what we're trying to solve and trying to find a way to do that in the technology, with efficiency, with a standardized approach that creates a it's super easy for any rights owner, producer, or distributor to just crystallize that revenue stream. And it doesn't matter if it's a hundred grand. You know, we can do you know, small amounts of money all the way up to significant millions of dollars at a time. Right, and then I'm assuming you take a percentage or like where's where's the rub as far as you eat, I mean come up exactly. So. But but the service, yeah, we do a little discount. It's very competitive. It's bank pricing. But yes, you discount money. So we give you ninety five cents on the dollar type thing, right, which I mean, I'll it's right right, that's the difference. So like, Okay, you can wait three or four years, or I could, I could pay you five percent and I have it all now, yeah, essentially effectively whatever that way. Yeah, it's something small and and then now you're like, okay, grace, so now I have that hundred grand, I can then repay my financers and my investors, and now they're happy because they get their money back, and they're like, hey can I can I do another one? Can yeh? Because I promise you if you if you call them up and go, hey, I'm waiting for three years for my for you have to pay you and oh yeah I had this other project, they're gonna go, yeah that's nice. Yeah, Or could we when the money's back in three years if you still have the project, you know, right, So that's it. But you know, these are real world problems. Cash flow is a real world problem. And also the time costs of money. The money in your hand today is worth more than it is in three years time because you can do things with it. You can make more films, you can make more money from it. So you know, we you know, we're trying to help, but there's more to it than the alex and and this alludes to the hunt of transparency and opaque nature reporting. The whole system is fully transparent. So one of the strategies with developing the verticals is to plug in all your revenue streams and provide an instant kind of real time reporting system for films, not just from the distributor, but from the ultimate retailer, so you can see how your assets are performing in real time and then disperse to your beneficiaries also in real time any collect to revenue. So really trying to change this idea of having to wait weeks and months for money, but also reporting in information and trying to give it in the palm of your hand on your iPhone or your sam song wherever you are on the world. You can be like, oh, this is we're doing. You know, we did we saw you know a thousand units today or whatever. That's fantas I also wanted to ask you so with with where do you see streaming going because and VOD in general, because I mean there's basically the three categories s VOTIVA and avod. AVOD is a very strong place right now for independent film. It's where I see the most revenue being generated for the lower end movies that don't have big stars in it. U s VOD obviously, if you can get the s FOT deals amazing. If you can get a Netflix deal in about you know, or Hulu nice, nice chunk awesome, TIVOD unless you drive traffic is pretty much dead in my opinion, or has to star involved. Like if you have a star involved, that means people like, you know, if you got John Travolta or By or Bruce Willis go By, people will probably rent it because of them. But if you don't have that start and you can't drive traffic, TIVAD is essentially a dead issue as opposed to where it was ten fifteen years ago. Do you agree, I have to agree. I think. I think. I think, as you said, streaming is SPoD is the holy ground. If you can get a license on a streamer that will pay you up front or even over two three years. Great. Transactional and a VOD are a lot more challenging to quantifive value, and with Transactional because of the plethora of free content available on a VOD and through a VOD. And yes it's not free, you have to watch ads. But you know, in terms of the consumers spend, it's time as opposed to cash that they're spending. It's in my opinion, it's harder and harder to justify the four ninety nine or seven ninety nine nine nine nine acquisition of a rental or purchase of a movie the commodity of owning an asset a movie. Um, I think with the younger generation certainly, he just doesn't. There's no value to it. Having the box set. I mean, I used to have racks of box sets and alphabetical order every movie. They go to words, you know, I had, I had my I had my color coordinated by Studio Wow. And they were all VHS. And they were all VHS. So I was DVD. I was a little younger than I had DVD. Two I'm not that much older than you. But yeah, okay, so I was DVD. But I I mean, and there was like, you know, so much joy of picking up the DVD looking you know, watching the box sets, the special features, and then seeing them on the wall, like seeing them the racks. And I did it with CDs as well. I had. I mean it was like my thing. I was almost a bit obsessive. I loved it. Will be back after a word from our sponsor and now back to the show. Now, I mean, if I have any I mean like, I'm like, I can't have anything physical, you know, I kind of paper. I don't like anything. Everything's got to go. So, you know, it's just such a different mindset. So and to me, the idea of renting or purchasing something where it feels like it could be or should be available on one of the many subscription platforms or able, I think it's harder, but I think nie content and where there's niece audiences, there is going to be a world for you know, clever targeted marketing to be able to drive transactional revenues. Pricing is also a really key thing. You know, we look at transactional it's actually I think probably over priced. Then maybe with the reduction of rental and purchase as as as a price point, that could also maintain the lifespan of a tran actional opportunity. But discovery is the key, addicts. I mean, how do you find this stuff? As we said, everything is available, everything, every movie ever made ever is available? So how do you how do you stand out in that crowd and marketing? Discovery influences you know, being able to you know market or identify your audience and communicate with him. That's going to be critical. Yeah, And as filmmakers, I think I've been well, you've been reading my book. It's about finding that niche, that niche audience, creating product for that niche, creating ancillary revenue streams from that movie, all these other things that you can do. I think that is the future for indie indie filmmakers. It made me feel like a musician when you were talking like that, and when you talk about in the book, it made me feel like, how does an indie artist build a career? And as a musician in this world, I don't think it's too different to an indie filmmaker. You need to build that fan base that can that that audience that can travel with you and grow with you. And just like a great indie artist can have a fantastic life and career, putting some music out going, gigging, selling some merch, doing some live appearances and have a lovely and you know, a pretty good life as long as they build, you know, enough momentum, and INDI filmmaka can do exactly the same thing. Yeah, exactly, And then look at the look at the brands that we follow. I mean Edgar Wright or Scorsese or Spielwerk. Now, mind you, most of those names I just mentioned were built in a different times and they were they were basically marketed for free by the studios, so they were able to build their brands off the back of the studios. But there's a lot of independent filmmakers coming up now who and again, you don't need millions. You just need a core group that love what you do, and you make products that for a certain price, sell it to them, give them access to those films, and you could do it again and again. I've had people like that on my show who've done like twenty movies in the range of from five thousand dollars movies to one hundred and fifty thousand dollars movies even sometimes up to half a million dollars, and they have the same audience following them, and they just and they just keep going and they've built their careers like that. That is the future. But that is but that's work. And a lot of independent filmmakers want to live in the dream world where Spielberg and Scorsese came up in and that's not the real world anymore. Man, It's not. Yeah, you say that, but then you know, you can go and make a really good little indie film and end up with a you know, a Marvel movie. So yes, you can. You can get plucked out of this little indie pond and put into the sea. It's very um, it's but that's but that's the lottery ticket. That's the lottery ticket. That is it's it's not if you're talking about one in a million. One in two million filmmakers get that opportunity. And I've had other like I've had. I always talk about the nineties and the the basically independent film as we know it today started in the nineties. There was independent films in the sixties, seventies, eighties, of course, but nineties is what we as as a society really understood kind of grasped. Independent filmmakers started with the Sundance movement. So with the Richard link letters and the Robert rodriguez Is and the Kevin Smiths and all those kind of guys. And I've had the pleasure speaking to some of these guys. And I talked to him now and I go, so slacker. Would it would it pop today? You know, would brothers? Would brothers McMullen pop today? And I when I talked to Ed, Ed was like, yeah, probably not. It was it was a right place, right time, right movie. And you know, um um, you know I think that's a fast, that is a such that's the luck right. Oh yeah, but right place based on my product walks alive in any business, in any environment, you know, in any industry, it's about right time, right place, right would you unity, right person, right hustle? You know, I mean my first job going back to it, you know, like I was late one day something happened because I would staying late at the office if I worked for this chack call. Nick quested a fantastic filmmaker in New York. And I was in New York and I've been in New York before. I don't know anyone. So I'm in the office late on my own and then the phone rings, they got a music video. No one's around, I'm helping write this thing. It pops? Is that luck? Is that hustle? Is that the right timing? Is that because I didn't know anyone in a city, so I ended up being in this You know, like, what are all the variables that had to happen for that to happen? And you go back and think in all aspects of anything that was positive ultimately goes back to that story. Is the start? Start with a great story. You've got everything going for you. It's never easy. Every movie doesn't matter what the budget is, how lucky you are to get the right actor, director, It's odd. There are problems on everyone and you just gotta navigate your way through and conduct all the different components. I mean, this is what I see myself as as a producer a conductor. You're connecting all the various moving pieces in this orchestra of a film to try and be hopefully playing the same song in harmony. Yeah, and it's it's not easy at all now being a producer and you're being a producer at the indie level, is it has its own set of issues and challenges. You know, when you're working on a fifty thousand dollars movie, which a lot of people are like, how can you make a movie fifty thousand bucks, I'm like, I made a movie for five grand and sold it to Hulu, so it's possible. But I mean, that's amazing, that's amazing. I couldn't. I didn't. I wouldn't know how to do that. It's not it's a it's a different it's a different skill set, no question. Now you throw me in a two hundred million dollar project, I'd be like, I probably need some helpier guys. This is not the world. You know, this is a whole other conversation. But I also could mean a lot more problem And also that's just a different mentality, a different way. It's different kind of organization, the politics involved, how to work with people. It's a whole other conversation. But you know, depending on which what kind of projects you're working on, creates different um the budget levels create different kinds of the challenges. So you were talking about being an orchestra. You've worked with some pretty remarkable filmmakers over your career, like like Martin Scorsese, Rob Ryan or Werner, Hertzog, Taylor Hackford, how do you conduct Scorsese or Hurtzong, Like, how do you I'm not saying you're like telling them what to do or anything, but how do you kind of work within that kind of that kind of I mean, these guys when they walk in a room, their entire catalog walks in the room with them, and you know, I mean, you mentioned some of the greatest boomaker is that you know have ever existed, and you don't, you don't. You know, filmmaking is a collaboration, and when you're working with incredible talent, you know. I'm I'm never the one to put my hand up and say this is how you do it, especially when I have no clue. I'm not a director. I don't have that skill set. I tried made a couple of short films. They weren't very good, and I realized quickly that that wasn't my skill set. I love the concept of storytelling. I love the ideas and the generation. I love throwing ideas in the pot. But you're not going to tell specialists and experts what they do in the same way I wouldn't tell a doctor what's wrong with me, because he's the expert, but I want to help up. But I went to WebMD. What are you talking about? Went to WebMD dot com. I looked it up, doc. I need this Google though, So no, I And in my role as a producer, I'm typically coming in as a fine ants here, so my role is really specific. I help get these films made. I helped put them together. But I'm not the guy on the the production over the shoulder of the director giving him a nod like you know what about that angle? Like firstly, no one does that with some of the tab at talk about. But it's just not who I am. I am the deal guy. I'm the guy that helps figure out how to put this together. How do you how do you fit this squat peg in the round hole with the amount of available resources we have or the challenges we have, and you know, getting it in, getting it in that hole and getting that hopefully nice and cohesive, flowing relationship between all the parties. So you know, the relationship I had with some of these directors is honestly, in some cases very hands off, very polite and wishing them very well, and in some of the ones that it has been a bit more intimate, it does depend very much on the relationship and the challenges and the compromises needing to be made by production. We'll be right back after a word from our sponsor, and now back to the show. Because the relationship I believe between producer and director is that collaborative. Um. You know, you have to share a shared vision, but sometimes you have different forces. The producer is dealing with strains of capital, money, investors, shareholders, distributors, you know, that kind of thing. And the director is pushing for his vision, that creative that creatives and sometimes even where the best one in the world, they're not always aligned, to say the least, they're not always aligned. So it's about how do you navigate that workplace, how do you navigate that political you know, it's egos, personalities, and also so I'm knowing when to shop shop and be like, this isn't the time the place, and I'm not the guy to say anything here because it's not going to make anything better and try and fix problems, and you know, producing is problem solving. Producing is finding the problem and identifying it hopefully early, and solving it before it's even a problem for someone else. That's a great, great definition of what a producers because it's producing. It's such just like kind of nebulous thing. You're like, because anyone can call themselves a producer. You don't have to go to seven years of school to have you know, PGA at the end of your at the end of your name as a producer or something like that, to like, you're a producer anybody. And trust me, I live in La so everybody's a producer here. And everybody walks up and they give you a business card. I'm like, hey, I'm a producer. I have various projects in multiple stages of development. Of course you do, and all this kind of stuff, and you know, you know the fool I'm sure, and I'm sure they're all fantastic. And yeah, we've been talking to We've been talking to Marty about this thing. I'm like, I'm sure you have what have you done before? What have you done before? What have you done before? I've done too shorts. I'm like, that seems like a solid business plan. But that's just the business problem solving, problem solving, And you know, part of the first problem is, you know, how do I get this in the hands of someone that could actually pay for it, be in it direct it. You know, that's the first problem, right, Problem number one is so how do you how do you develop a project from scratch? How do you how do you approach that problem? And as I mean, because some movies I think you're look, you're you're a producer on and then some of your executive producers on, so some more finance or some more posto executive, which is where I'm more involved, as I say, in the financial arrangements and structuring and hopefully deal gathering side. But I have, you know, done a number of producing from scratch, like The Foreigner my Jackie chan Nnie Campbell was a book that I optioned called The Chinaman by Stephen Lead, which I was given by my late father to read when I was a young boy who didn't read another thing that you know, great life lesson. Read read a lot, read everything. Understand what people are making and why they're getting made. I mean it's all there for you. You know. Anyone who says to me, oh I don't understand I got the stuff, it's not anyone's liking it. And they don't read or look at why the things that argued he made are getting made and what were the things that made that happen. But so, yes, I have to be at the number of things from scratch the Foreigner remind me, the foreigner is the one with who else was in it besides Jackie Champius, bros. That's what I thought. I loved that film, loved it. I loved that film. Yeah, Jackie was Jackie was amazing in that film. What is it? Your friend? David Marconi? Directed by Martin Campbell who made two Bond movies. So, so how do you so look at Jackie Joy? So Jackie's a legend man like, he's like just legend like, he's so with legendary. How was it working with Jackie on set? Like? Because you were a producer on that, so you were on set with that it was PDA whatever that means whatever that yeah, exactly, So how how was it working with? I mean a genius and he's a genius is he is? He is the hardest working and just most unbelievable talent. And Marty Campbell, oh, amazing unbelievable director. But he he you know, he puts actors through their paces. He you know, again again again again, and he knows what he wants and how he wants it. And he doesn't stop until he gets it. And working with you know, people like Jackie and and and Peers, it's just amazing to be around such incredible talent. And these guys have made movies for so many years. They and when you look at action and the way that Jackie um you know, architects of fights team and creates that with the stunt crew and with the director, with the idea of the vision of the movie and how the action into relates, it's incredible to see is still inspiring. Energy is inspiring. You know, it keeps you going. You look at when a sixty five year old, you know, incredible talent has got the energy and is up and is clombing like that. You know, it makes it lifts everyone around you. Is he still doing his stunt? Yes? God, no, yeah, he's doing them nuts. He's the man. And you know what, you're not just doing them, you know your career. You know, you're designing the sequences and the fight as well, which is just so much work. And the meticulous attention to detail that goes into everything you see is exceptional. It blew my mind. It absolutely blew my mind. Wow, that makes us make amazing people m and the whole crew that go with him. You know. Oh no, yeah, I heard, I've heard. Yeah, this legendary teams amazing. Yeah, it's remarkable. Now, one thing I wanted to ask you as a finance here, because this is the biggest dilemma filmmakers have when they're packaging a project. It's the chicken and egg dilemma. Oh my god, I need cast before I can get money. But I need money to get cast. How do you do it? Yeah, I mean take it till you make it. It's really hard. It's super hard. You know, even when you've made a bunch of movies. The difference is when you say you can fund or you can pay someone something, you know, there's a little more more believability in it made now. So if I'm calling an agent or an actor and saying this, we like to make an offer, and you know this is what we can pay. You know, I'm only doing that knowing that I can deliver that. You know, obviously, when you're starting, you may eat an egg. You know that if you're able to land X actor, the finances will come rolling. It's really hard. I mean, increasingly, um, it's I guess it's getting even harder because the competition with film and TV as well. Now and um yeah, it's I wish I had an answer for you. The only thing I can say is the great stories right to the top. Actors gravitate towards great roles, great parts, and great stories, and so you, in my view, you have to if you can't afford the number, you have to position the project as a must do project. It's not about the money. Now, that won't be music to the agencies, but for the actor who may be getting you know, a dozen opportunities a month or more, they want to do things that are going to move their you know, their career forward, or move their their value, their values, but even just their their their interests. And so think about who you're going after and why this part, this role, this movie means will mean some of them because you can't just dangle the check that's going to make them pay attention. It's got to be centered around the part and the role. And and I think dressing up offers with really personalized letters and visions from the director because ultimately the director vision is key when approaching talent. And so you know, really be creative about how you position your movie and the opportunity to the actor. Do a video of the director talking to the actor like he's in the room pitching the role. Is he more likely to watch a three minute video or read your email and script? Maybe he might just read the three he might watch the three minute video. I don't know, maybe not, but it might stand out over the email, it might stand out over the whole script. So get them into the story, get them looking at the part, and they kid, you know, the mice, kid, we got the money, it's coming, we got it now. There's so many you know, and I run this. I ran into this so much in my career, and I was this early on my career. You probably were a little bit as well. Is the delusional factor where you are like like that guy, I was just making it fun of like I was like, oh yeah, I got this card. I'm a producer, and I mean I'm talking to Marty and like, there's this delusional factor, and there's a lot of this goes on, and some of it is very conscious like I'm I'm just trying to boast myself up, fake it till you make it kind of scenarios. And then there's people who really truly are delusional, like completely delusional about like I'm gonna I've had conversations. Yeah, we're pitching this to Tom Cruise. I'm like, are you are you? Are you crazy? Like that's like are you why? Like but that, but that's the delusion, like, oh, he's this is the part for him, It's gonna be the thing. And I'm like, guys, look look at the track record. I say that. But when I started, I was twenty five years old and I approached Jackie Chan to be in a movie. We'll be right back after a word from our sponsor. And now back to the show. That had no money, really it had nothing, but I knew, you know, I had a sixty five year old Asian lead that there was only really four or five actors in the world that could play this part. And he was number one. He was number one. And so you knock on the door and you try, and actually, I should tell you the first time it was a no. It took time and tenacity and hustle and staying with it and also talking to Donnie Ian and Andy Lao and Chao Yon Fat and going through the process to eventually had all the right things in place to then end up closing the deal. How many years did that take? How many years did that take from first trying to attack, because we took a few years to write and adapt the book to the script because I was again I had no money, and I had an amazing writer and Dave Marconi who wrote ende me to stay mission possible to you know, fantastic array of movies anyone being paid, which is not unreasonable. But I had to kind of piece me in it together. So that took a couple of years. But by the time we finally started the journey in packaging, I think it took about three years too. From the from the moment you started to the moment you attached Jackie, from the moment I had a script I could go out with, right, and then how long did it take you before from beginning of the project to the very end when you're shooting seven years? Seven years? Okay, So I don't consider that delusional. You're you're you're going forward at that point and then you actually are creating things that make that happen, as opposed to here's a script, Tom Cruise. You should understand that I'm a genius and you need to work with me. That's the delusion. And I'm sure you've run into these guys. No, I mean I'm probably one of these guys, right, because then it works, right, But no, you're right, And I think that you remember earlier we were talking about what is the right you know, framework for this movie. It's the same as distribution, it's the same as talent. It's the same as an amount of money you're raising. Don't raise a million dollar movie and try and get Tom Hardy. I mean, it's never gonna work, you know, it's not the right fit. Go and get the best person in that kind of category of budget and and everything, because just having a major star on a movie has this cost that come with it, let alone the fee for them. There is a certain amount of costs that come with just having major talent along with a movie. And that's you know, just because you've got a little bit of money, isn't it always enough? So I think it is always about positioning yourself with the right and approach. That doesn't mean you shouldn't aim high, that doesn't mean you shouldn't have aspirations for the best correct and that doesn't mean you shouldn't try and hustle. But there is a there is a if you if you're trying to make you know, as you say, hits at the biggest and the best. You know, A you've got to be prepared to wait a long time, a long time, because you've got to be patient when you're dealing with people that are the best in an industry, in any industry. They're busy, they're good at what they do, they're going to be busy. You are not a priority. So if you're happy to wait, then great, But there's pressure with waiting, and you know it's it eats, it eats you. So you got to be doing a lot of things, juggling a lot of balls or manager expectations, be real, be practical and get it. And my view of me, isn't it worth just getting this made and making another one and another one and maybe in three or four movies, because you've gone from two million to five million to nine million to fifty millions. Now you're doing the forty million film with Tom Cruise. Well sometimes not doing forty millions, but but you hi, he might he might give he might come in and say hi. Yeah. It depends on who the director is, and you never know. I know, of course, of course, no of course, of course, um now do you do you would you recommend reaching out to actors directly through their through their production companies and seeing if that's an angle of like bringing them into the financial bringing them into as a producer, because that might be more appetizing as opposed to just going directly through agents. Absolutely, I would be trying every angle possible to try and um position myself as a project that should be on the radar of the target actor, whether it be through their production entity, through their agent, through their management, through the guy that's the ballet at the best restaurant they go to. If there is a route in you got to try and navigate. That's the hustle, right, Alex. It's about getting into the door. Okay. I've I was involved in a film called War with Grandpa. Yeah, and it's fantastic story. And the producer of that film had the best hustle story of how he got the script to de Niro and he just was relentless and wouldn't accept no any He would you leave them everywhere and hand them to everyone around him, and ultimately eventually Denira read it needed you know, basically engaged in the project. Although there was a lot of work that had to be done before he attached, but it got through a process and bum he's in the film his number one joys. Was it easy? No? Did he hustle it? Yes? It was commendable. And I find that those stories that are inspiring, they made me feel like great about life because you're like, yes, there is a way. You don't have to always have, you know, buckets of cash and you know, be perfect. You can do it and it isn't easy, but yes, of course if you feel but going smart, look at what the slate is, look at what they gravitate towards. Don't go and send Jake Generhaal's production company something that that he would never gravitate towards and they've never made the never associated with Do your homework. Research, understand what these businesses and people are are doing and making. And it's not always easy, but there is so much information available on the web, and there's so much access to information now that the more prepared you can be to go in to engage with anyone, director, producer, financier, do your homework. Now, you mentioned something a little bit ago which I really doesn't get talked about him as much, but if you're lucky enough to get one of these guys or girls who come onto your show up a name talent, you're like, great, I've raised a million dollars and I'm paying xtar to show up for five days for a million dollars. And you're like salad. But then then you forget that with that, they're not going to sit in a chair and drink you know, kool aid like that. You got to get them a trailer. There's gonna probably an entourage, there's gonna probably so there's cost involved. And I've seen other producers like we weren't ready for this. It kill it killed our budget because you know, Nicaide showed up, not saying this nic age, but Nicade showed up. Someone like NiCad showed up, is like, I need what's what's my trailer? What is that? I can't go in that? Like all these things that you're not aware of, You're absolutely right. I know everyone is different, of course, you know, fair to generalize, but but there is an associated and an expected level of professionals, professionalism and support. You know, you don't change in the back of a room where there's a little curtain if you are you know, in the middle of nowhere. You need a private place with you know, with a place for them to you know, have you know, do what they do to do, get in the zone. Prep. M Yeah. The the you know, the the the support and the budgeting requirements that go with any major talent um is often underthought of in independent film production. And and and it's a it's it's a shape because you know, in some respects it's like, well, it seems like a waste, but it's not you you can't look at it like that. It's about professionalism. And trust me, they will feel better. They will come on set, you know, free, ready to work, ready to be you know, do what you want them to do in the best in the best shape. And the challenge comes. I find not always about you know, packaging for the major style that's coming. But then how that um, you know that affects the rest of the of the cast and the rest of the crew. Who may you know what I mean? Like because the you're like, okay, well we throw all the bells and whistles out for so and so, and then the rest of you you're in their mate, you know, you're in the big the bus. We've got a bus for you, all of you can send the bus. It's great, it's warm. It's not air condition. It's not air condition, it's not but this fans, we got fans, you got, you got brown bag lunches onasy. I think it's about thinking about the overall and the other things that just have a conversation. Again, communication is key. The biggest mistake to make is just assume it will be okay. That's it's okay to say, listen, we don't have the budget for this. We would. We're gonna make you as comfortable as possible. This is our proposal. This is how we're gonna do it. Is that going to be okay? We can give a bit here, but we can't do that. Communicate, communicate, We cannicate as soon as you just assume, well, we'll turn up, but we'll be all right, I'll figure it out. Yeah, we'll figure it out. Yeah, we'll be right back after a word from our sponsor and now back to the show. That's where the problem happened. That's when you get people with their back up and you're after a bad stop, right and um yeah, that's the thing that a lot of people don't talk about either. It is just the politics of all of this. This is psychology, this is human behavior. You're you're you're, you're you're being almost a politician on how to negotiate egos and agendas and you know, maybe they had a bad night the night before and how you have to deal with that. Like I always ask my hairdressers and my hair my hair, my hair and makeup department, like how how they doing, because they're the first ones they hear what happened. They're the first ones to hear what happened the night before, like oh, I had a fight with my girlfriend or oh my boyfriend cheated on me. Like, oh, you want to know these things before they step on set. So I always ask my hair and makeup department that kind of stuff. But that is so how do you you know, you can get a driver as well, you know, yeah, picked up. You know, they're always great. Well we talkative on the way in this morning. You know, did she have a coffee? And but this is this is the weird and it's just just the insane world that we live in and move in the movie business, where our entire you know, hundreds of thousands of dollars of that millions of dollars on the day are riding on? Did they have their coffee? Sometimes you know you're you're you're throwing together a you know, a collective of personalities and experiences in one go and hoping it all gels together to make this magic. Sometimes comes together and it's beautiful and everyone's like, you're my best friends, I will love you further to see you with my wedding um and others you're like, I never want to hear from you again. That cool. I don't care how good the job is. I'm not interested. You're a nightmare. And so you know, it's a complete concoction. And you know, even when you do do you know, every film's different, and that's also awesome as well. That's one of the most magical things about what we do and how and the world we're in is that you meet amazing people and you work with amazing people who are brilliant what they do, but sometimes clicks and sometimes it doesn't, and the personalities arriving and then where all the eyes are focusing and all the attention of focusing can gel together beautifully and they can be really not and managing those situations is also really important job of the director and potentially the producers as well, to really hope for the best result because it's one thing coming and doing the job, weaving the lines, turning up, you know, putting in a good day's work, but there's another thing coming and like shining in that day. And as a filmmaker, as a producer, as an owner of a business, and that's you want everyone to shine. So how do you create a working environment to nurture that and support that and encourage it. And that's what I love that you keep saying business and asset because it's something I've been yelling from the top of the mountains for a long time. And filmmakers a lot of times get caught up with the magic of it. It's art, it's story, and we are in this crossroads between business. It's show and business. And as a producer friend of mine says, and as a producer friend of mine says, the word business has twice as many letters as the word show. And there's a reason so because it is this art form mixed with business and a lot of the artists just want to focus on the art and the business want to focus on the business. And we have to find this happy balance happy medium. But you have to as a filmmaker keep thinking this is a business first, for creating an art form within the realm of a business, of an asset that is going to be sold in the marketplace. And you have to think that way. And all the greats, all those directors I just mentioned from Herzog and Scorsese, and they all understand it. They're amazing artists, but they understand the business of it. They do. And you know why, because you respect the facts of business, and you keep getting the work, you keep getting the opportunity to make more. It's not a hobby. It can be a hobby, it can be wonderful, but it's yeah. But then don't didn't treat it like a hobby. They make films for fun and enjoy the process and don't worry about the monetization. That's all upside if it happens. But that's not the thing. But the majority of us in this industry live by what we make. We support our families by how we how well we do with our work. And therefore, in the same respect you'd have for a teacher turning up to teach your kids or a doctor going to look at you know, you're thinking, or a mechanic fixing your car. We are making um movies. We are making assets, though hopefully we'll entertain wide audiences, and that's great. But the aim of the aim for me anyway, is to make something for less than you get for when you set it. That's gotta be the a That's that's business. That's that's just business. I had, I had a conversation I had. I had a conversation with a filmmaker at afm UM and they they ran up to me and they're like, Alex, Alex, I had a I got a deal, I got an MG. I'm like, great, what was your MG? Like we got thirty five thousand dollars MG. I'm like fantastic. What was your budgets? Like it was two hundred and fifty thousand dollars. I'm like okay, okay, okay, So what rights did you play you're on the way, what rights did you sell all of them? Okay? How how long? Nine years? And they were ecstatic about it, They're like, we we sold it, we got I'm like, but that's not what business in the world. Does that make sense? Like, that's a complete that's it. You're going to that's a hobby camp. That's a hobby but the hobby camp, that's the hobby camp. And you know, there's there's God, it's hard and it's hard, and you know what we're in is we're in a We're in brutal industry. It costs a lot. The barrier to entry, although technology and cost the production and down, the barrier to entry is high. The competition is you know, vast, and whilst the arguably has never been a better time to make a movie and get it exploited and distributed because of the likes of Avon, because of the direct distribution channels to an audience, which is amazing and a wonderful opportunity. It's it's it's super difficult. It's super hard, and you know, focus on story building the best version of whatever that story is. Then find the right director and talent that will enhance that project. That doesn't mean it has to be the megastar, it needs to be the right level, and then financing it a appropriately to what that package looks like. Now, you did a movie called forty seven Meters Down, which I remember when it came out and it exploded. It was like a huge box office hit, and it. You know, arguably, I'm a fan of Mandy Moore. I watched This is Us. I love Mandy, but she's not a huge box office star. She's not you know, she's not you know, bringing in tons of cash. But yet this movie exploded and it was like a five million dollar budget or something like that. If I read correctly, that tell me the story behind that, tell me the story behind that. That must have been amazing. So Mark Lane and James Harris came to me with the project. They had already shot a promo when he hands the director that was, you know, a minute and a half visual effects promo of a shock basically, and it was brilliant. It was brilliant. And I guess this promo costume forty grand thirty five grand grand. And they had got this amazing visual effects house in the UK in Bournemouth that were new and hungry, and they put this together and they went to can Or Berlin and they pre sold the movie by about two and a half a million straight away. And then off of a shark engine, off a promo and a script and a director, that's it. No talent at this stage, and so they were looking to find a way to finance the film, and you know, as was the kind of focus of me. You know what I was doing back then, lending against these pre cell distribution contracts a UK taxed credit and then putting up some if you like, gap or equity against the rest of the world felt like a smart play given the amazing work that the predat Altitude with the film sales agent they were. They did a terrific job, terrific job off this promo, and so we we we we uh we made a deal. We work with them to finance the movie and produce the film, and they executed a terrific movie. And I would say that at the time, you know, um Bob Weinstein would you know, feedback his notes, and everyone was looking good about a big theatrical release. And then we got to finish in the movie and I remember we were in can We screened it for them privately, as we did to some of the buyers, and they turned around and said, no, we're not going to release it. It's going to go straight to DVD. And we were bummed. We thought we had a great movie. We obviously were not not relying, but really hopeful that the theatrical release would really give us the the upside we all were counting on, and so we managed to negotiate a deal. Well, we could buy back the right from North America. And by the way, they were phenomenal at the time. Bob, We'll be right back after a word from our sponsor. And now back to the show. The note he gave the they invested more money to do reshoots. We made a great move, but they just decided it wasn't going to get a release. So we managed to have a window of time to rebuy the movie by repaying their investment and their MG and a little uplift, a significant uplift. But the condition was we couldn't sell to any of their competitors. That's a really I mean, so no studio, what they go as a convertor, no Lions Gay, none of that. So we ended up having to have a very narrow pu of almost independent distributors, smaller distributors. And we did a screening and amazingly we managed to get the attention of Byron Allen and he and his team there just jumped on it. They loved it. They saw the potential of this film and in but the Weinstein decided that they were always going to release the movie on a certain date, and we had till that day to buy it back, and the thing was dragging. We got to release day and the DVD dropped. It was in Target, it was in Walmart, it was everywhere. On the day we dropped the movie, we bought the movie back. Byron went with a check down the beach and gave a check, got the deal done. We recalled the movie five hours later off the shelves, and then rebuilt the whole movie up a year later to do the theatrical release. It was one of the most crazy experiences I've ever been involved, with the stress and the excitement, and then Byron and his team did an unbelievable job. They put up a stupid amount of p and a money for a tiny little movie. They went everywhere and he went nuts. And you know, we also had the benefit in that year that this is us dropped Mandy Moore suddenly, who was always a great actress, but he became overnight and like within the year while we were messing around with all this stuff, and that helped us a lot. And Claire Hole as well. I mean, we just had an amazing, amazing achievement. And your Hannah's did a phenomenal job, went on to make a sequel. It was just one of those amazing stories. But it came together really by the the smart approach that the filmmakers took to make a thirty five thirty forty grand promo of a minute and a half of a shark that looked amazing, that just basically pitched this story and managed to presell the movie off the back of it with no talent. That's saying significant sales and and and and actually it's an amazing opportunity that if you have, you know, the right kind of genre, the right kind of movie, it can be a fantastic strategy to raise five million, seven million for a movie off the back of a killer promo, killer trailer, and actually so that small seed investment to really create a sizzle to then go and to go and set it in the market. It can be a fantastic solution. An amazing story that's like, that's a little like a lottery ticket. When we had to call people that legitimately bought the DVD in Target and tell them they had to send it back to us, how did it really? Because we recalled every DVD because it was and it wasn't called forty sent meters down. It was called into the deep. They called it um And so we had to recall every DVD and we were getting piracy things going over where. We had to recall that we had a year of with all of this story. It was. It was amazing. But you know, credazing story. I don't amazing that does not happen. There's nothing like that happened. And someone send me. I don't even know if we've got one here. I'd love to. I don't know where I've got it. But literally, you go into a time you could have bought it off the shelf legitimately in the morning, by the afternoon it was gone any year later. See the cinema. It was fun. That's amazing. Uh. Now I want to ask you, if you I'm want to ask you a few questions I ask on my guests, Um, what advice would you give a filmmaker trying to break into the business today? Don't do it, go and be an accounting go bicker cookie. Um. Just I'm drummed on this a lot today. But stories the start focus on story, build the best version of whatever it is, spend the time in square spend the time and really really leaving in what you're making, and make sure that when you do get the opportunity and you do get in front of that actor, don't blow it. Prepared research, be prepared. Okay, And what is the lesson that took you the longest to learn, whether in the film business or in life. I would say that happiness is not the destination, but the journey. Amen. And I think I struggled for many years in the destination and trying to get that happiness and that hit and that joan. But actually, you look back over your shoulder, and we talked a bit about some of the experiences today. But that's the joy. The journey is the joy. So enjoy the ride, Enjoy the journey, enjoy the nose, enjoy the yeses, and you know the success comes from the journey and not arriving at the destination. And three of your favorite films of all time? Oh this is your podcast anyway? Here, I am nothing more to say. The station Agent. Yeah, great movie, great movie movie. I would say, um, I mean I like someone the Rock. I would say, it's one of my favorite all time action movies. Can we can we stop there for a second? I've said this before and I'll say it again. Whether you like Michael Bay or not, Michael Bay changed the way action films are made, just like just like Tony Scott did when Tony Scott showed up before Tony Scott. And there's after Tony Scott, before Michael Bay and after Michael Bay, before the Matrix and after the Matrix. There are certain movies that change the way they do it the right. He touches he touches it in Bad Boys. But The Rock is the film that and it's my favorite, my favorite definitive action movie of my youth. Oh you know, made me love action movies the way and it's I love them, and it's a solid story and it's amazing action and the lines and just the relationship. It's Sean Connery, isn't it. And if and if and if you want a little bit more a cheese, you can go watch Armaged in which I also enjoy but at a different level. All right, it's your third one, um most recently, I think you know I loved Parasite as well in recent recent recent years. But yeah, I mean I love movies. I love all films. I mean I like bad movies. I like good movies. I just love that as the escapism of our craft. Did you did you see the Room? You've seen the Room? Right? Of course? Of course the Room is is is a genius film. Uh and uh, everyone listening to the podcast knows. I'm a film just a fanatic of the Room and of Tommy Wisso and everything that that movie has done. But um, but did you see it by yourself? Or did you see it with other people? Because I I'm probably other people. Yeah, because that's a movie you can't watch by yourself. You need to watch it with a group, especially if you're a filmmaker with a group of filmmakers. I saw it with a group of filmmakers at Sundance one night in a loft while we were shooting my movie there, and no one, no one on the crew had seen it except for me. I'm like, oh, we're getting it tonight and we're all watching it and everyone's just sitting there going is he using the same stock footage shot twice? Why? Why is he humping her her stomach? What's going on? Like? If there's so much going on in that movie, it is so brilliantly bad. Um, what are you are you old top three Is that one of them? No, well, I mean it's the it's the best worst movie. It's the best worst movie I've ever seen. Um, I just you just enjoyed. There's I always tell people this. I'm like, there's bad and then there's bad that transcends good. So it it's so bad that it is good and it and you can't you can't go after that. It happens naturally. You can't make a bad movie and hope that people will love it because the intention is wrong. The reason why The Room is beloved by millions around the world is because Tommy was always trying to make the greatest film of all time. That is why it is so brilliant. But when you try to make a cult film or a bad movie, people understand you're you're never gonna do it. But because there was such sincerity in the making of it, and it's like, I can't don't give me. All I seeing is lines and scenes fla. It's that's the brilliance of it. Oh yeah you're there, so yeah back so um for me, I always I always my favorites are I always say, show um the three that I could just throw off the top we'll be right back after a word from our sponsor. And now back to the show today, Shaw shank Um, Fight Club and The Matrix. I mean those just they work, and and of course The Godfather and of course Rights the Lost Art, and of course Jaws, and yeah, and of course you know Taxi Driver, and of course all these other amazing films. But those are the three that like their remote control thrower aways. Like if you're watching something you like, oh it's on God, I have to just I just have to watch it, you know. But I love those movies where no matter where you land in them, you nearly pick up pick them up by that, yeah, Yeah, and Fight Club and Timeless and of course everything Kubrick and what was anything Kubrick made? Um just I'm a huge ridiculous Kubrick fan. One day I'll make the pilgrimage to uh to England to the archives there at the school and we'll take you to a football game. You know, we can you know, now, can you tell people where they can find out more about Purely Capital, Amazingly purely doc Capital. It's just all in the title. So find us on purely and all your social media's but all means you know, check us out purely dot Capital and if you have any long data contractor revenues, we will happily let you get them sooner. And anyone got you know, any ideas about how to improve the lack of transparency around our industry, We're also excited to hear about those sorts of ideas so we can try and help build products that will give you those tools when it is then absolute pleasure talking to you, man, and thank you so much for coming on the show. And I hope this episode helps a few people. We've thrown out a lot of information and a lot of information I'm sure you would have liked to have known twenty years ago, and I definitely would have liked to note twenty years ago. You know what, the best thing you know to look at today is that we are in an established industry that is still finding it's being changing today and that's what's amazing, you know, and tomorrow will be different. So just keep hustling, right amen, brother, Thank you, bro, thank you for having me. I want to thank Wayne for coming on the show and dropping his knowledge bombs on the Tribe today. Thank you again so much. Wayne. If you want to get links to anything we spoke about in this episode, head over to the show notes at Bulletproof Screenwriting dot tv for it slash three to eleven. If you haven't already, please please please head over to Screenwriting podcast dot com subscribe and leave a good review for the show, or subscribe and leave a review for the show wherever you are listening to this podcast. It truly truly helps us out a lot in getting this information out to more and more screenwriters, creatives and fimakers. Thank you again so much for listening. As always, keep on writing no matter what. I'll talk to you soon. Thanks for listening to the Bulletproof Screenwriting podcasts at Bulletproof Screenwriting dot tv.