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Michael Gervais: Mastering the Mind for Bold Performance · The Bold Lounge

• 0:07
  Speaker 1: Welcome to the Bold Lounge Podcast.
• 0:09
  Speaker 1: My name is Lee Burgess and I will be your host.
• 0:12
  Speaker 1: If you're anything like me, you love hearing inspiring stories of people who have gone on bold journeys and made a positive impact in the world.
• 0:19
  Speaker 1: This podcast is all about those kinds of stories.
• 0:23
  Speaker 1: Every week, we'll hear from someone who has taken a leap or embarked on an extraordinary journey.
• 0:28
  Speaker 1: In addition to hearing their stories, we'll also learn about their bold growth mindset that they use to make things happen.
• 0:34
  Speaker 1: Whether they face challenges or douse along the way, they persisted and ultimately achieved their goals.
• 0:40
  Speaker 1: These impactful stories will leave you feeling motivated and inspired to pursue your own bold journey.
• 0:46
  Speaker 1: I believe everyone has a bold story waiting to be freed.
• 0:49
  Speaker 1: Tune in and get ready to be inspired.
• 0:52
  Speaker 1: Welcome to the Bold Lounge.
• 1:00
  Speaker 1: Today I have Dr Michael Gervais.
• 1:02
  Speaker 1: He is a high-performance psychologist, author and one of the world's leading experts on the relationship between the mind and human performance.
• 1:09
  Speaker 1: Over the course of a 20-year career working with world-class performers and organizations, dr Gervais has developed a framework for the mental skills and practices that allow organizations, teams and individuals to thrive in pressure-packed environments.
• 1:22
  Speaker 1: His influence can be felt across many touch points of popular culture, including his clients in the NFL, super Bowl champions, seattle Seahawks, world record holders, olympians, mvps from every major sport, internationally acclaimed music artists which I'd love to hear about that and Fortune 50 CEOs.
• 1:41
  Speaker 1: He has worked across three Summer Olympics Tokyo, rio, london and two Winter Olympic Games as a high-performance psychologist supporting Team USA, most recently for USA Surfing in Tokyo 2021.
• 1:53
  Speaker 1: He currently has a new book, the First Rule of Mastery, that's published by Harvard Business Review, and he has previous originals, including Compete to Create an approach to living and leading authentically with NFL coach Pete Carroll.
• 2:05
  Speaker 1: Welcome.
• 2:06
  Speaker 2: Thank you so much.
• 2:07
  Speaker 2: It's great to be here with you.
• 2:09
  Speaker 1: So we'll jump right in.
• 2:10
  Speaker 1: We had a fun pre-convost, so I think it'll be fun.
• 2:12
  Speaker 1: As we kind of go through this and talking about being bold, We'd love to know what you would respond with when I ask you the question what does being bold mean to you?
• 2:22
  Speaker 2: First of all, I love the question and I really embrace what you're going after as a leader of a community here.
• 2:29
  Speaker 2: So the way that I think about bold is bold is expressing yourself without fear of what others may think of you.
• 2:36
  Speaker 2: There's a freedom in being bold.
• 2:38
  Speaker 2: Bold for me really is a love affair with the unfolding, unpredictable present moment.
• 2:45
  Speaker 2: Being bold is backing yourself with the virtues that matter most to you and being about those virtues even when it's hard to do.
• 2:54
  Speaker 2: And so for me, when I think about the adventure part of bold, it's venturing into the areas of psychology and emotion and your physical life and to go into places where you're embracing the unfamiliar and you're stepping outside of your comfort zone.
• 3:10
  Speaker 2: And inside of that there's a willingness to fail, to face failure, to face the consequences of mistakes.
• 3:17
  Speaker 2: And then, on the farthest spectrum of the idea of being bold, it's going into areas that no one has ever gone before and there is no roadmap, there are no signposts, there are no bellwethers to be able to navigate that space.
• 3:30
  Speaker 2: And in those spaces, when you step into them, you have to navigate your own map.
• 3:36
  Speaker 2: And so for me, being bold is an internal experience as well as an external experience.
• 3:43
  Speaker 1: Yeah, and it's very personal right.
• 3:45
  Speaker 2: I would absolutely second that.
• 3:47
  Speaker 1: Yeah, your journey is different from mine.
• 3:49
  Speaker 1: And then I think the only thing I would add to that really well said definition is that it evolves.
• 3:56
  Speaker 2: Like what I thought was bold when I was 20 is different from when I'm 50, right, and there's a whole bunch of variables that go into that as well 100%, yeah, so perspective and reference points are really a very important part of the high performance arc, and so some of the most interesting people and some of the most dynamic performers in life whether that's a physical form or an artistic form in another way is that they have interesting lives and they have radical reference points.
• 4:28
  Speaker 2: And to have these reference points, they end up shaping our understanding of what is possible, what is bold and what is not bold, and so, to use your framing and so reference points are really important.
• 4:40
  Speaker 1: Yeah, so one of the things that, in your definition, is there any moment that you remember being bold, and bold has so many levels and layers, so it could be personal, it could be professional, it could be kind of an emotional depends.
• 4:52
  Speaker 1: Just didn't know if anything came to mind for you.
• 4:54
  Speaker 2: This isn't the first time this has happened for me, but, as you asked that question, there's an experience that pops up.
• 4:59
  Speaker 2: I was standing on top of a cliff deciding whether to go surf or not, and I just give me a second to unravel why this matters Is that it was a place right near where I grew up, but it's so localized it's such a heavy mentality keep strangers out that to walk down this cliff and to navigate the folks that are at the bottom of the cliff is as risky as the wave itself.
• 5:29
  Speaker 2: And so this wave is a wave of consequence.
• 5:31
  Speaker 2: It happened to be about 15 feet, which is this imaginary line between fun and all business, and so this was an all business wave, and I've always wanted to surf there.
• 5:41
  Speaker 2: I grew up very close to it, but I was not part of that crew.
• 5:44
  Speaker 2: And here I am, 20 some years old, I'm back revisiting this wave, and I stood at the top of the cliff navigating one like is it worth it?
• 5:56
  Speaker 2: Is it worth it me dealing with the potential fistfight, the potential of I, if I get down there without getting hassled too much, with my tires be slashed, you know, with my windows in my car be blown out?
• 6:08
  Speaker 2: It's that type of thuggery, if you will, and I'm navigating it like is it worth it to go surf this wave, which was obviously very electric as an opportunity?
• 6:21
  Speaker 2: And so the thing that I had to weigh against was not really about the danger, but standing on top of the cliff, do I go for what I want in life with fear of retribution, or do I make a commitment on how I want to move into risky environments without managing all of the fear, and do I deal with that later?
• 6:44
  Speaker 2: So it was this moment of like.
• 6:46
  Speaker 2: Is it worth it?
• 6:46
  Speaker 2: Is the juice worth the squeeze?
• 6:48
  Speaker 2: And it's immaterial actually if I went or didn't go, which I did go, but it's that's immaterial to the story.
• 6:56
  Speaker 2: The story is having a moment.
• 6:57
  Speaker 2: Am I going to be about facing fears or am I going to play it safe?
• 7:02
  Speaker 2: Am I going to be about my virtues, that it matters if I stand for something?
• 7:06
  Speaker 2: In this case it was standing for that the ocean and Mother Nature does not belong to anybody, or that, you know, this quite localized gang feeling was going to be a deterrent.
• 7:16
  Speaker 2: So I don't expect many people to understand what that feels like at the top of a cliff, whether I go surf or not, but it represents to me that feeling.
• 7:25
  Speaker 2: Do I go for it when I know that there's likely consequences?
• 7:28
  Speaker 2: But the thing that I'm going for matters to me, and so that's to me, I think, a bit of an emblem for all of the internal mechanisms that take place on whether you go forward or not.
• 7:42
  Speaker 2: And I was bold in that moment, which was cool.
• 7:45
  Speaker 2: Nothing terrible happened, which was great, but the imagination of what could happen and what the downside could be was about a 45 minute full anxiety state at the top of the cliff, and so I think that there's a bit of an emblem there as well, as oftentimes we overthink and indulge all the things that could go wrong, which is an important mechanism to do.
• 8:09
  Speaker 2: It's when it's left unchecked and unexamined and it runs rampant in our own mind, where we find ourselves in phobal, and panic attacks and or general anxiety.
• 8:19
  Speaker 2: I'm a licensed psychologist so I say that with a caring of what anxiety is for people.
• 8:24
  Speaker 2: I don't say that haphazardly.
• 8:26
  Speaker 2: So that was a moment.
• 8:28
  Speaker 2: I had a real anxious experience at the top, whether I go forward or not, and it was really a commitment at that point in my life.
• 8:35
  Speaker 2: Does Mother Nature belong to all of us this wave, this beach?
• 8:39
  Speaker 2: Or does Mother Nature belong to just a handful of quote unquote thugs that are going to keep me out?
• 8:45
  Speaker 1: I think we could probably in some way relate to being on that per real cliff and whether it's maybe it's not surfers who are kind of getting their turf or you're saying this is our turf, but I just think of it in the corporate world where, certainly as a woman doing some of the things that I was doing and in my role, I had to really push against quality, push against excellence.
• 9:06
  Speaker 1: I had to stand up to people who made millions of dollars for the institution and tell them they needed to stop because they weren't doing it at the level or they needed to do it the way that I said, which is the way the FDA says.
• 9:16
  Speaker 1: So those moments of being on the cliff but knowing like, okay, I know I'm going to tick somebody off or I know I'm going to step on somebody's toes, I don't want to, but I need to, I have to, and this moment of like is it worth it your beliefs, your value system, all those things come in, but a lot of that connects to, like you said, 45 minutes.
• 9:38
  Speaker 1: I was thinking that's not too bad.
• 9:42
  Speaker 1: Some people perseverate on something for months or years on end.
• 9:46
  Speaker 2: Yeah, and I appreciate that it's not that bad.
• 9:48
  Speaker 2: The thing about mother nature and surfing is windows close quickly.
• 9:52
  Speaker 1: That's true.
• 9:53
  Speaker 2: There's a forcing function, like if the tide shifts or the wind shifts or something happens, then you miss the moment, and so it is a forcing function a lot of ways, like sometimes we don't have the luxury of 45 days, and I have such regard for people that have a set of virtues and values that are meaningful to them and back themselves to demonstrate that those values, even in unpopular environments, and sometimes they're hostile, like this one was, and sometimes they're perceived to be hostile.
• 10:23
  Speaker 2: But those that stand for something are the ones that you know me working with world's best over the last 25 years.
• 10:29
  Speaker 2: They've stood for something.
• 10:31
  Speaker 2: Some no longer do I work with full blown narcissist, because what they're standing for is just look at me, my bank account, and like those, are no longer interesting at all.
• 10:40
  Speaker 2: But those that have real virtue and value that they're resting on is really important to me.
• 10:47
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 10:47
  Speaker 1: So, as a high performance psychologist, what does high performance mean to you?
• 10:52
  Speaker 1: Or what does mastery mean to you?
• 10:55
  Speaker 2: Yeah, mastery.
• 10:56
  Speaker 2: Let's set it up so that we can have some range to talk about the conversation.
• 11:00
  Speaker 2: Mastery would be at the top of a proverbial ladder here, and at the bottom would be choking.
• 11:05
  Speaker 2: So choking is the complete inability to access your skills, talents.
• 11:12
  Speaker 2: It's the inability to access creative thinking, critical thinking, the ability to figure out how to throw a ball fast and well, like whatever the craft might be for you, and so there's a choking off of the access to the craft that you've spent so long investing in.
• 11:28
  Speaker 2: So that's choking.
• 11:30
  Speaker 2: Above that is micro choking.
• 11:31
  Speaker 2: Most people don't choke, by the way.
• 11:32
  Speaker 2: There's micro choking where it's really difficult to be you there.
• 11:37
  Speaker 2: Right above that is performing under pressure.
• 11:39
  Speaker 2: Then a step up is performing.
• 11:42
  Speaker 2: A step up is thriving under pressure.
• 11:44
  Speaker 2: A step up of that is sustaining high performance, and a step up from that is mastery.
• 11:50
  Speaker 2: So the difference between a high performance and mastery is that there's a different contour to what mastery is about.
• 11:58
  Speaker 2: High performance is about being able to execute on demand in any environment and to be able to meet a standard of excellence.
• 12:06
  Speaker 2: So that's high performance, and mastery has a different soul and a contour to it.
• 12:10
  Speaker 2: So the path of mastery does have the ability to perform on demand, but there's a depth and an artistry to it that that sensitivity fundamentally feels different than the path of high performance.
• 12:24
  Speaker 2: So the high performance really has a metallic feel to it and mastery has a bit of a warmth and contour to it, and both have the ability to deliver on demand in a creative, artistic way, but mastery has again, I'll use the word contour because it's the best word here it's just a little different.
• 12:44
  Speaker 2: And then, if you double click on mastery one more space or one more time, there's mastery of self and mastery of craft.
• 12:51
  Speaker 2: And high performance is really about the mastery of craft, and so mastery has this mastery of self where we are more interested in the becoming than the execution of the craft.
• 13:03
  Speaker 2: So we're using the environment of performance to better understand what it means to be oneself fully and then from that, to better understand what it means to be human fully.
• 13:13
  Speaker 2: And that's that contour and shape that the path of mastery enriches, as opposed to the commitment to high performance.
• 13:21
  Speaker 1: So one of the things you talk about is that there's three things that you can train for your craft, your body and your mind.
• 13:26
  Speaker 1: And I feel like craft is hit a lot.
• 13:29
  Speaker 1: There's tens and thousands of books around that body, obviously, health, wellness, kind of connecting that.
• 13:35
  Speaker 1: I feel like mind gets either the short stick or doesn't get as much love as it should, but it has more power than to me to push or to even make those other areas like your craft and your body actually excel and perform and maybe work up to being in mastery.
• 13:53
  Speaker 1: And wondered why, you know, with all your experience, do you feel one that mindset gets the short stick or not as much attention or is kind of left as a?
• 14:03
  Speaker 1: If you can add it into your day, do it.
• 14:05
  Speaker 1: Or you know how?
• 14:06
  Speaker 1: Are you seeing it become more of a place where people are understanding the importance of it today than in the past?
• 14:13
  Speaker 2: Cool question.
• 14:13
  Speaker 2: So the short end of the stick is an interesting way to frame it and I think the easy answer is yes.
• 14:19
  Speaker 2: But let me open that up a bit.
• 14:21
  Speaker 2: The psychological set of practices and tools that are available to all of us and we all use them at some level.
• 14:30
  Speaker 2: But how sophisticated are we using psychological tools is directly related to the aperture of freedom, the aperture of being able to express, even in hard and difficult and high-pressure situations, when you're able to open, the aperture of being able to access critical, creative thinking and critical, creative expression of ideas, whether that's physical form or typing, whatever it might be, or writing or this form, which is the auditory form here, that if you don't invest in your psychology the aperture is quite narrow, and when you invest in your psychology the aperture widens.
• 15:07
  Speaker 2: The thing that gives a bad rap to psychology it was born out of the medical model, and so the first track, if you will, of psychology was to study disorder and dysfunction.
• 15:18
  Speaker 2: And that was an important moment in time to be able to study, like why do some people talk gibberish?
• 15:24
  Speaker 2: Why do some people have these radical fluctuations in mood?
• 15:27
  Speaker 2: That gibberish is technically called word salad, which is a mark of schizophrenia.
• 15:32
  Speaker 2: Why do some people have these radical fluctuations in mood?
• 15:35
  Speaker 2: Why is it that some people seem to not have compassion or empathy, talking about sociopathology or narcissism, and so what is that?
• 15:43
  Speaker 2: And so it was the study of disorder and dysfunction.
• 15:46
  Speaker 2: And then we started to study just depression and anxiety, which is more a garden variety, like welcome to the club, you know, at some level and that's not to make light of severe anxiety and severe depression that is significant, but at the mild level, you know, many of us have it, and even less than that, there's the experience of depression, not a full bone depressive episode, but just feeling sad, if you will for a bit longer than than you would like.
• 16:11
  Speaker 2: Okay, so that was a good study.
• 16:14
  Speaker 2: Now, at some point, there was the study and the gaze.
• 16:17
  Speaker 2: There was the gaze towards what are the extraordinary do?
• 16:20
  Speaker 2: And how did they work so well in life, these people that are flourishing, and these people that are masterful, and these people that are able to like somehow be the best in the world at what they do basketball or whatever it might be how did they use their mind?
• 16:36
  Speaker 2: And so we started, maybe 40 years ago, studying that the reason it gets the short end of the stick is because you can't one.
• 16:44
  Speaker 2: It's got an interesting wrap.
• 16:46
  Speaker 2: Still, there's still baggage around the discipline of psychology.
• 16:48
  Speaker 2: It's changing.
• 16:49
  Speaker 2: And the second is that psychology is completely invisible and it's hard and it's scary to wrestle with the world of the invisible.
• 16:57
  Speaker 2: And to that note I say wait a minute.
• 17:00
  Speaker 2: We all embrace that gravity is a thing and it's very important for our survival as a species.
• 17:07
  Speaker 2: We can't see gravity None of us can see gravity, but we can see the artifact of gravity, just like we can't see thoughts, but we can see the artifact of thoughts.
• 17:16
  Speaker 2: So we can simply study the artifact of thoughts, which is behavior, or the artifacts of gravity, which is, you know, the tension and friction against gravity, the falling to earth and all of those dynamics.
• 17:27
  Speaker 2: Or we can go upstream and try to understand from a psychological perspective.
• 17:32
  Speaker 2: How do we work well with thoughts, how do we work well with feelings?
• 17:37
  Speaker 2: How do we train our mind to be great at thinking well, to be great at framing things in a way that helps us build a sense of self and build a sense of generativity and build a sense of freedom in life?
• 17:50
  Speaker 2: Those are possible, and the best in the world teaches that.
• 17:53
  Speaker 2: And so that's the beautiful science of psychology, the high performing psychology that you noted earlier.
• 18:00
  Speaker 2: To perform well in life is a really interesting crosswalk from performing well on a sporting environment.
• 18:08
  Speaker 2: So it's changing now, and even 60 years ago in elite sport, if you were to walk behind the velvet rope and ask an elite coach or athlete how important is the mental part of the game, I don't know a coach or an athlete that says, ah, it's not that important here.
• 18:22
  Speaker 2: They all say, oh, the mental part of the game, that's the separator, that's the game changer, that's the differentiator here, the mental part of the.
• 18:29
  Speaker 2: Everyone's got the physical skills, everyone's got the technical goods.
• 18:32
  Speaker 2: It's really about the mental game at this level.
• 18:34
  Speaker 2: Okay, coach, what do you do for mental training?
• 18:38
  Speaker 2: 15 years ago they would say something like, yeah, I do it.
• 18:41
  Speaker 2: Oh, good, okay, cool, like how do you do it?
• 18:44
  Speaker 2: And they go well, you know, I'm just kind of like always saying, be confident and focus, and yeah, but how do you train confidence?
• 18:49
  Speaker 2: You know, I just tell them that they're good.
• 18:53
  Speaker 2: Okay, coach, that's not how it actually works according to good science.
• 18:56
  Speaker 2: So so they were doing it the best they could, okay, and then the science started kicking in, like, how do we actually train confidence?
• 19:05
  Speaker 2: And that was about 20 to 15 years ago.
• 19:07
  Speaker 2: And then in elite sport, let's call it 10 years ago and say what does it look like in your environment for mental training?
• 19:14
  Speaker 2: Oh, we've got somebody you know in the in the building and they're, they're pretty good.
• 19:20
  Speaker 2: Five years ago, the best of the best would say, oh, psychology is in the rhythm of our business.
• 19:26
  Speaker 2: Our psychologist is at the table of high performance.
• 19:28
  Speaker 2: They're talking about how to.
• 19:29
  Speaker 2: They're helping us be better.
• 19:31
  Speaker 2: They're coaching us how to deliver mental skills to the athletes.
• 19:35
  Speaker 2: So it's no longer like, hey, hey, sports site, can you go help that, that athlete that's struggling.
• 19:42
  Speaker 2: It's not that anymore, it's inside the hallways.
• 19:45
  Speaker 2: It's in the water that we swim in, it's the air that we breathe, it's the, it's the fabric of the culture, is where psychology is embedded.
• 19:54
  Speaker 2: Now it's not a poorly lit room down the hall that you have this kind of tabooish wonderful conversation that nobody knows what's happening.
• 20:03
  Speaker 2: That's going the way of the dodo and it's moving into the everyday rhythm of business as usual in sporting environments.
• 20:12
  Speaker 2: That's now going to start taking place, probably in the next five to 10 years, in big business.
• 20:16
  Speaker 2: Then it's going to move from the therapist's office into leadership, having a clear and applied understanding how to use best practices of psychology.
• 20:28
  Speaker 2: So my prediction of the future is that the great leaders will understand the application of good psychology.
• 20:34
  Speaker 2: They will know the mechanics on how to teach confidence.
• 20:38
  Speaker 2: They will know the mechanics on how to teach a sense of calmness.
• 20:41
  Speaker 2: They will understand the mechanics on how to teach optimism.
• 20:44
  Speaker 2: And so no longer are they just kind of sitting in this power structure of like I set the strategy and I'm going to bonus you on whether you hit.
• 20:52
  Speaker 2: You know the okay, ours or not.
• 20:54
  Speaker 2: That's the way of the dodo again.
• 20:55
  Speaker 2: That's the extraction model, that's the power and control model which is changing and we're moving to an unlocking model in elite business.
• 21:04
  Speaker 2: We're seeing from extraction to unlocking.
• 21:06
  Speaker 2: We're unlocking the potential that sits dormant in so many of us.
• 21:09
  Speaker 2: Most of us are exhausted, we're tired, we're overwhelmed.
• 21:13
  Speaker 2: We report being more stressed than we've ever been.
• 21:16
  Speaker 2: The pandemic, and and and really shook some shook, some stuff up for people and there's this sense of being overwhelmed.
• 21:24
  Speaker 2: But that's not because the world is so much more radically dangerous or stressful.
• 21:28
  Speaker 2: It's because we are tired of doing it the way we've always done it and we're saying I'm not staying here, I'm not doing this job where I'm adding to the bottom line of your bonus, my bonus to or Wall Street's bonus at the cost of knowing my kids.
• 21:46
  Speaker 2: You have to do better and there is a drumbeat that's happening right now across corporations.
• 21:51
  Speaker 2: For the ones that are hearing it and responding to it, leadership will look fundamentally different in the next five to 10 years.
• 21:58
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I think one of the things is this awareness.
• 22:00
  Speaker 1: I think people are more whether their senses got heightened or more aware during a particular time 2020 to now but I think they also feel more empowered and and overall, I think that's a good thing if you're more aware and feel more empowered, but I think what's interesting, in kind of your conversation about the past and what's happening in the future, is organizations, overall, are behind.
• 22:22
  Speaker 1: You have been working with athletes, but you know what's the organizational athlete look like, and I know your book is really aiming to that and kind of helping us understand and unpack that for us, but I think you know we need to get caught up, because I think what, what we're seeing is one a huge waste of money and time on efforts that could succeed sooner at least my opinion if we would actually do some of the things that you've talked about and taught others to do, and I think I'm excited for the future, but I'm impatient.
• 22:51
  Speaker 1: So I think I'm excited for people to understand more so around, how they can find their mastery, how they can use it in their organizations, how leaders can start to really soak up your message.
• 23:04
  Speaker 1: One question before we jump into the book, though is, can everyone be a high performer?
• 23:09
  Speaker 1: Are there variables that need to be in place for you to perform at a high level and work towards mastery?
• 23:17
  Speaker 1: Because I must be working towards mastery might be a lifelong endeavor.
• 23:21
  Speaker 2: The path of mastery is the path.
• 23:23
  Speaker 2: It's not necessarily.
• 23:25
  Speaker 1: Check of the box.
• 23:27
  Speaker 2: Yeah, so it is a commitment to the path of honest learning.
• 23:30
  Speaker 2: Honest learning about yourself and your ability to express your ideas or your craft in any way.
• 23:35
  Speaker 2: So it is the path of honesty, and that is rare.
• 23:39
  Speaker 2: That path is fundamentally narrow because most people want to numb, distract, deflect, point their fingers and blame and find reasons and escape mechanisms to not be in the spotlight of honesty.
• 23:54
  Speaker 2: So the path of mastery begins with a fundamental commitment to learn and grow and to be Honest with oneself.
• 24:02
  Speaker 2: And so it is the path.
• 24:05
  Speaker 2: Yes, that is potentially wide for for there's plenty of room, but not very well traveled.
• 24:12
  Speaker 2: And so the the path of high performance is a bit different, and the path of high performance is really about Expressing your ideas on demand in hostile, rugged environments and being about it either in a clutch way or, you know, being able to find that flow state even in high-risk moments.
• 24:29
  Speaker 2: So to answer your question depends on what the reference point is.
• 24:35
  Speaker 2: If the question is Does everybody have the ability to be a high performer?
• 24:39
  Speaker 2: In the top 2% of performance?
• 24:41
  Speaker 2: No, only 2%.
• 24:42
  Speaker 2: Do Only 10% do?
• 24:44
  Speaker 2: You might hit it for a little bit and then slip down below it.
• 24:47
  Speaker 2: You know the majority of your time.
• 24:49
  Speaker 2: It is rare, and it's rare for a reason it's not as rare as the path of mastery, but the path of mastery is available to all of us.
• 24:58
  Speaker 2: Mm-hmm, high performance is, by definition, in the up.
• 25:00
  Speaker 2: You know it's called 5%, right, the upper 5%.
• 25:03
  Speaker 2: But if you change just slightly the reference point of 5 of High performance, to do you or do we have the ability to perform to our upper abilities?
• 25:13
  Speaker 2: Like, is high performance being your best or being the best?
• 25:17
  Speaker 2: And if you, if you, rotate one way or the other?
• 25:20
  Speaker 2: Well, if it's about being your best, yeah, that is available.
• 25:23
  Speaker 2: It's closer to the path of mastery, but it's it is.
• 25:27
  Speaker 2: There's a trap of naivete here.
• 25:29
  Speaker 2: Like, if you and I are in a rock band and we're not, we're in your garage, and what instrument do you want to play?
• 25:35
  Speaker 1: What are you Guitar, please?
• 25:37
  Speaker 2: guitar.
• 25:37
  Speaker 2: So you're on the guitar, I'm all on the drums, we're banging away.
• 25:40
  Speaker 2: One of our friends is on lead vocal and Well, and at the end of our jam session we're like that was good, like that was really good, and we've been practicing every day for a year, let's say so, we're not rookies.
• 25:51
  Speaker 2: To practice and you roll up the garage door and at the same time, across the street, somebody else happens to roll up their, their garage band and and their garage door rolls up and they start to practice again and it's you too over there, by the way.
• 26:05
  Speaker 2: Okay.
• 26:07
  Speaker 2: There's a little bono next door the bono Bono rolls up the garage during kind of winks at you and says oh, you guys are playing, oh, good, like, let's go one for one.
• 26:14
  Speaker 2: And so we start banging around in a dissonant way and then they start hitting the.
• 26:20
  Speaker 2: You know the fluidity of notes.
• 26:21
  Speaker 2: So I bring this up in a fun way that if you're saying I'm on the path of being my best, Well, you do have to understand what your best looks like.
• 26:30
  Speaker 2: You do have to understand what the best looks like to be able to say, like you know, how does it stack?
• 26:36
  Speaker 2: Relative to other people?
• 26:37
  Speaker 2: I am fundamentally more interested in being my very best.
• 26:41
  Speaker 1: Mm-hmm.
• 26:41
  Speaker 2: I do want to understand what best across the world looks like.
• 26:44
  Speaker 2: So I'm not naive, but I am fundamentally committed to being my best every day, and so my reference point is what does calm feel like?
• 26:53
  Speaker 1: Mm-hmm.
• 26:53
  Speaker 2: What does honesty feel like?
• 26:55
  Speaker 2: What does full presence feel like?
• 26:57
  Speaker 2: What does confidence feel like?
• 27:00
  Speaker 2: What does optimism in the face of difficult information feel like?
• 27:05
  Speaker 2: So, if I can stay in those States more often and not get pulled out by the stressors or the dangers real or perceived of my external world, then that's a sense of high performance for me.
• 27:19
  Speaker 2: Yeah, so those are the, those are prerequisites to be able to express my ideas In the right way.
• 27:25
  Speaker 1: Yeah, so being knowledgeable what is out there and like maybe what you consider the best, but ultimately knowing that your best is what you should be starving for.
• 27:33
  Speaker 1: I think there's a trap of comparison out there that is and I don't know if you experience this with athletes I'm sure it's not just us mortal humans out here aren't athletes but we're always comparing ourselves to somebody else when ultimately, it should be ourselves that we're looking at right in the mirror Like am I my best today?
• 27:51
  Speaker 1: Someone asked me today am I happy about the year and all the things we've accomplished?
• 27:56
  Speaker 1: And I said you know, honestly, there was this pause.
• 27:57
  Speaker 1: And they said I wasn't expecting a pause.
• 28:00
  Speaker 1: And I said well, honestly, I don't think I've given myself the chance to actually think about it, but it was like you got to give yourself a chance to also recognize and understand how you're doing and what you're doing.
• 28:11
  Speaker 1: So this comparison that I have right now like I got to finish the year strong, I got to make sure I end on certain levels it can get pretty tricky sometimes when you're comparing.
• 28:21
  Speaker 2: Yeah, like comparison before the comparison is a thief of joy like that.
• 28:25
  Speaker 2: That is a real Challenge for us.
• 28:28
  Speaker 2: But at the same time, being your best does like from an organizational standpoint or even a personal standpoint.
• 28:34
  Speaker 2: We, beginning of the years is a nice moment, like what are the goals for the year?
• 28:38
  Speaker 2: Mm-hmm.
• 28:39
  Speaker 2: And then so we could check some boxes, like yeah, I hit this revenue and this on this, you know, like that's cool, but really there's a sense like being my best.
• 28:49
  Speaker 2: I asked on the funny mastery podcast.
• 28:51
  Speaker 2: I asked Woody Hobark.
• 28:52
  Speaker 2: Dr Woody Hobark, who's an astronaut, just got back from a spacewalk on the ISS, the International Space Station, and I asked him what does it mean to be your best?
• 29:02
  Speaker 2: And he paused and he said it's a thousand micro choices every day and it's being aware of those micro choices.
• 29:10
  Speaker 2: Am I moving in?
• 29:11
  Speaker 2: You know to that that bold, to use your framing, he didn't say it this way.
• 29:16
  Speaker 2: But am I moving closer to my best or am I playing it safe and moving away from my best?
• 29:20
  Speaker 2: And so the way he thinks about it is a thousand micro choices a day.
• 29:24
  Speaker 2: Am I leaning in To it or am I?
• 29:26
  Speaker 2: Am I pulling away?
• 29:27
  Speaker 2: So I think that that part that Ipsidive technically it's called an Ipsidive relationship.
• 29:33
  Speaker 2: Your relationship to your sense of perform or to your abilities to perform is very important to know, but it starts to just get like Slippery.
• 29:43
  Speaker 2: Like what is that?
• 29:44
  Speaker 2: Like how many days were you really calm and confident and focused and kind?
• 29:50
  Speaker 2: And if you don't rate them as much as you rate revenue, cash flow, attendance, you know, social media growth, whatever it's, if it's not on the scoreboard it doesn't hold weight.
• 30:03
  Speaker 2: So you know, as a founder, ceo, yourself, like that is one way to think about folding it into your business is like for all of your people to have a scoreboard.
• 30:13
  Speaker 2: How did you do on the psychological variables that matter to you?
• 30:16
  Speaker 2: Like it in oversimplified, did you?
• 30:20
  Speaker 2: What was your zest for life today?
• 30:23
  Speaker 1: I didn't have one scary Sunday, I'll tell you that.
• 30:25
  Speaker 1: So I think, you know, I used to have those like just dreading kind of the Monday, and not that I didn't like my job or didn't like the work I do, which was incredibly meaningful but just kind of getting back into it for me, you know, and I think that would be a great indicator, because I think it's really important.
• 30:41
  Speaker 2: No, Lee, Lee, I want to totally interrupt and say, no, that's okay.
• 30:44
  Speaker 2: So, look, I love that you brought up the scarries.
• 30:46
  Speaker 2: I love that because that's like saying when I hear that, the way you framed it, I hear it.
• 30:52
  Speaker 2: You know what?
• 30:53
  Speaker 2: I wasn't depressed once.
• 30:56
  Speaker 2: Not one Sunday was I depressed.
• 30:58
  Speaker 2: And I go, oh, that's not like, that's not a zest for life, that's just like, if you think of below the line, above the line right.
• 31:07
  Speaker 2: Like below the line is like I'm struggling in some kind of way.
• 31:11
  Speaker 2: Suffering is way below the line.
• 31:13
  Speaker 2: Struggling is right underneath the line.
• 31:14
  Speaker 2: You say, yeah, I didn't struggle or suffer.
• 31:16
  Speaker 2: I didn't airball.
• 31:17
  Speaker 2: I did not airball on the last game.
• 31:19
  Speaker 2: Did you score?
• 31:20
  Speaker 2: No, I just didn't shoot.
• 31:25
  Speaker 1: You took the backboard.
• 31:26
  Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 31:29
  Speaker 2: So, so.
• 31:29
  Speaker 2: So I hear that Lee and I hear okay, wait, hold on, cool, the absence of Depression, it does not equate to flourishing.
• 31:41
  Speaker 2: So I'd say let's go better, let's think about above the line, like zest for life, flourishing, happiness, joy, like what would be a couple markers that if you put them on your scorecard, you know and I'm putting air quotes under scorecard like you could have a real scorecard every day.
• 31:58
  Speaker 2: It's called the journal, you know, like or you could like this mechanism yeah real fancy.
• 32:03
  Speaker 2: Like how did you do today?
• 32:06
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 32:07
  Speaker 2: And if you're not tracking most of us, it just escapes us, it just gets lost, you know.
• 32:13
  Speaker 2: And with the quote unquote busyness, which is a terrible marker of success, as you know, I agree with that.
• 32:19
  Speaker 2: Yeah, Lee, were you busy?
• 32:20
  Speaker 2: You busy when you haven't seen somebody for a while.
• 32:22
  Speaker 2: You've been busy.
• 32:23
  Speaker 2: Let's give them a crawl to that answer.
• 32:26
  Speaker 1: Yeah exactly yeah, because I think what gets I mean you know the same what gets measured matters right.
• 32:33
  Speaker 2: And.
• 32:33
  Speaker 1: I think a lot of businesses actually don't look at some of the things that you work on, like optimism, confidence, kindness, curiosity, like those are those?
• 32:43
  Speaker 1: All are words that, even as I say them, make me happy to say them right.
• 32:47
  Speaker 1: So I think it is something for everyone who's listening to think about.
• 32:51
  Speaker 1: Like where are those indicators on your scorecards beyond your revenue and your sales and your clients and your leads and all that stuff, that good stuff we do talk about Obviously you need in your business, but you have to have those other things.
• 33:04
  Speaker 1: I mentioned the Sunday scaries because that was really a real deal for me.
• 33:07
  Speaker 1: Like in the corporate world I was never looking forward to Monday.
• 33:11
  Speaker 1: Now I don't even know what day it is, honestly, because it's just, and I don't mean that work is life and life is work.
• 33:16
  Speaker 1: I just mean to me it's just.
• 33:18
  Speaker 1: I am in a sense of being versus doing, and you know a lot of my focus the last couple of weeks has actually been on my book, because I have a book coming out.
• 33:27
  Speaker 1: Oh, how fun, awesome, yeah, so, but it's like it's a.
• 33:31
  Speaker 1: It almost reminds me of my dissertation a little.
• 33:35
  Speaker 1: It's different kind of writing, but it's writing, you know.
• 33:37
  Speaker 1: But we're getting close.
• 33:37
  Speaker 1: I'm really excited because it's like this, something you've created and you know this in so many ways.
• 33:42
  Speaker 1: You've done it multiple times.
• 33:43
  Speaker 1: So, as you're kind of getting out there, but I think, thinking, I think what I want people here is kind of that key thing of what are they measuring.
• 33:50
  Speaker 1: So I don't want to get out of here before we talk about FOPO, which is the fear of people's opinions, which I think actually hinders people from being bold, it hinders them from performing, it hinders them from maybe taking that step off the cliff down towards the beach to surf.
• 34:05
  Speaker 1: But I think you know, going back to your original, you know definition of bold.
• 34:09
  Speaker 1: I mean, you actually overcame FOPO early on in your 20s.
• 34:13
  Speaker 1: But as we grow older, I think either our ability or resilience to tackle that has a whole bunch of consequences potentially, or things that we go through or things that we're worried about.
• 34:25
  Speaker 1: I know when I quit my job, there was a lot of judgment, a lot of opinions.
• 34:30
  Speaker 1: How could you quit?
• 34:31
  Speaker 1: You know you don't have a plan.
• 34:32
  Speaker 1: Well, I have a plan and just it's evolving, you know.
• 34:36
  Speaker 1: So, like, I think, when you think about that, can you define what it is for people and then talk about how we can begin to address it and overcome it, so that we can actually work towards our high performance and our mastery.
• 34:51
  Speaker 2: And do you want me to go after the working definition of?
• 34:54
  Speaker 1: FOPO yeah, like the working definition, because I don't think people they've heard of FOMO but they haven't heard of FOPO, right?
• 34:59
  Speaker 2: And this is meant to be fun, right?
• 35:01
  Speaker 2: Fopo is meant to be fun in all of the right ways, and so let me give you the origin story of it and then I'll get to a working definition is that I recognize in myself as a young kid that I was contorting and conforming to fit in, and that's kind of what kids do in a lot of ways.
• 35:18
  Speaker 2: It's like we're trying to figure out our social intelligence and it's a really good thing to be awkward and to figure out how to be awkward in social settings, so that you can feel what it's like to make those micro choices.
• 35:31
  Speaker 2: The micro choices are do I conform and contort and do I shape, shift to belong, or do I have my own ideas and do I have my own way of expressing myself?
• 35:41
  Speaker 2: And I recognize as a young kid that I was doing too much of the conforming and I could fit in a lot of different environments and I was invited in a lot of different social settings, so there was a benefit to it, but at what cost.
• 35:56
  Speaker 2: I was losing my way my point of view, if you will and I didn't know who I was at some point in my life, because I knew that part of me was I could fit in, but I kind of lost my way and I didn't like it.
• 36:09
  Speaker 2: I was embarrassed by it.
• 36:10
  Speaker 2: I didn't talk about it.
• 36:12
  Speaker 2: And then I started working with World's Best and I noticed that there was a theme amongst them is that it was a little bit different than mine, but their theme is they didn't want to let people down.
• 36:22
  Speaker 2: They didn't want to look bad, they didn't want to embarrass their family members, they didn't want to embarrass themselves with poor performance.
• 36:29
  Speaker 2: They didn't want to let their agents and coaches and cousins down.
• 36:32
  Speaker 2: There was a lot of people counting on them.
• 36:34
  Speaker 2: And so there was this theme that I privately was working on they were privately working on was the opinions of other people matter?
• 36:43
  Speaker 2: And so I wrote a small piece on Harvard Business Review and they called 12 months later and they said hey, you know that article you wrote.
• 36:50
  Speaker 2: It was the number one downloaded article over the last year.
• 36:53
  Speaker 2: It touched the bill.
• 36:54
  Speaker 1: I remember it had a talk.
• 36:55
  Speaker 1: I remember it had like a I was just saying you read it.
• 36:58
  Speaker 1: Sorry, I read it.
• 37:00
  Speaker 1: I think it was several years ago, like in the last four years, like that.
• 37:04
  Speaker 1: But I remember it had a Frenchie and there was a Frenchie in the front and there's a whole bunch of Frenchies behind it.
• 37:11
  Speaker 2: God, that is great Good memory, yeah.
• 37:13
  Speaker 2: So it touched the nerve.
• 37:15
  Speaker 2: Enough people read it that they said let's write a book.
• 37:17
  Speaker 2: And I said, oh gosh, we got to put some research to this.
• 37:19
  Speaker 2: So that's kind of where it started.
• 37:22
  Speaker 2: Is that there's this thing in the world that I've come to learn?
• 37:26
  Speaker 2: That it's, unfortunately, it's like the water that we're swimming in and we're not talking about that water, and I'll tell you a fun story in a minute.
• 37:34
  Speaker 2: And so I called it.
• 37:37
  Speaker 2: One of the great constrictors of human potential is this playing it safe and small, to belong, to fit in, to not be rejected.
• 37:47
  Speaker 2: Come to find out after doing the About two years of research on this idea is that there's a mechanism in our brain that is wired to belong where wiring is safety period.
• 38:00
  Speaker 2: And so if you and I were in the same tribe and you and I screwed up in some kind of way, we didn't perform right or distraction, and the elders gave us a warning, and then we kept screwing up and we didn't, of course, correct and we didn't fit in to the tribe, we were kicked out.
• 38:15
  Speaker 2: That was a near death sentence.
• 38:17
  Speaker 2: And so in modern times, we've got this ancient programming in our brain to make sure that we don't get rejected because that was a near death sentence, because it was too wild and too dangerous if the two of us and maybe three other people that got kicked out for us to hunt and gather and forge and fend and protect and against wildebeest and warring tribes was too much.
• 38:39
  Speaker 2: So we are highly tuned at the potential of rejection and if left unexamined and undeveloped, the brain will win.
• 38:50
  Speaker 2: That impulse to belong will supersede the need to be authentic.
• 38:56
  Speaker 2: So this idea of authenticity is a nice calling, but if you don't examine the power of your brain and invest in high quality psychology, the brain will win.
• 39:09
  Speaker 2: And that's what we came to figure out is that this book is really about how to work with FOPO fear of people's opinions and the on ramps to it and the off ramps for it, and in a clever way.
• 39:22
  Speaker 2: Fopo is like when you're at a social event, you check your phone so that you're appearing busy or in demand.
• 39:27
  Speaker 2: It's laughing at a joke that you don't find funny.
• 39:30
  Speaker 2: It's pretending to know a song or a movie so you're not the weird one left out.
• 39:35
  Speaker 2: It's holding a cocktail even though at a social event you don't want to drink.
• 39:39
  Speaker 2: It's hiding your age in an industry that prizes youth, it's just playing a secondary game other than being all of you in any environment, because of the fear of rejection, because this strong need to be accepted and that's FOPO.
• 39:58
  Speaker 2: Fear of other people's opinions, it's an unproductive obsession with what they might think about us and it's this exhaustive attempt to interpret what someone is thinking about and then trying to shape, shift, to fit in, to not be rejected.
• 40:15
  Speaker 2: That's in and of itself.
• 40:17
  Speaker 2: That is what FOPO is.
• 40:19
  Speaker 1: And I think sometimes people don't realize how much energy they're giving to that.
• 40:23
  Speaker 1: So the holding the drink, the laughing at a joke, the looking at the phone, the same what you you know agreeing to something that you really don't agree with.
• 40:33
  Speaker 1: But you know, you feel like you have to say it to fit in.
• 40:36
  Speaker 1: Sometimes I think people kind of give into the FOPO because they think it takes less energy, when it actually, in my mind, I feel like it takes more and I wonder what your thoughts were about that.
• 40:49
  Speaker 2: Oh yeah, we found that just from a neurobiological standpoint.
• 40:53
  Speaker 2: It takes.
• 40:54
  Speaker 2: It's incredibly expensive to run the FOPO mechanism.
• 40:58
  Speaker 2: It's a very expensive organism when there's a secondary, below the surface navigation of acceptance and rejection as opposed to speaking the truth.
• 41:10
  Speaker 2: Now, the problem about truth tellers is that oftentimes they get pushed out.
• 41:14
  Speaker 2: And so if you're the one that's constantly shining the light in the dirty corner and saying, look at all this dust in the corner, who's responsible for that?
• 41:23
  Speaker 2: People get you out.
• 41:23
  Speaker 2: People are like, listen, we were perfectly fine with that dust in the corner, it's not that big of a deal Like this isn't cool anymore.
• 41:31
  Speaker 2: So we value the heroism to be authentic and speak the truth until we're faced with it ourselves.
• 41:38
  Speaker 2: It's popular from a distance and unpopular when the intimacy of it, that heat, is felt.
• 41:44
  Speaker 2: So to answer your question, like it's incredibly expensive and taxing and tiring to manage a people's opinions at the cost of your own sense of self.
• 41:55
  Speaker 2: That is expensive navigation.
• 41:58
  Speaker 2: There is expense on the other side of like if you're a truth teller, smoke is going to blow back at you, smoke will come your way.
• 42:05
  Speaker 1: Yeah, might need goggles, you might need some goggles right, yeah, I mean face the consequences.
• 42:10
  Speaker 2: Yeah, that's exactly the right and I would say the consequence of going to bed at night knowing that you swallowed something that is embarrassing to swallow, that's expensive, that's costly.
• 42:21
  Speaker 2: Going to bed at night knowing that you've got smoke in your eyes is also costly.
• 42:25
  Speaker 2: But I my this is now full opinion.
• 42:29
  Speaker 2: This is not research based.
• 42:30
  Speaker 2: The first part about the expense of running the FOPO filter we know that that's an expensive filter.
• 42:36
  Speaker 2: The expense on on dealing with the smoke, I don't know, but I think it feels better If you can be a truth teller that is grounded in kindness.
• 42:45
  Speaker 2: It is so much more available to create the change that you'd like to see versus something that is critical or doesn't have the contour of making it available for people to hear it.
• 42:57
  Speaker 2: There's a way to kind of provide a slippery surface for truth where it's not so agitated and irritated, and there's an art to that as well.
• 43:06
  Speaker 1: Yeah, it definitely has an asterisk.
• 43:07
  Speaker 1: It isn't go out and be a jerk to people and say things that could be hurtful.
• 43:13
  Speaker 1: But I think, when it comes to and I think what I was getting at was the external validation and internal validation for our actions of like, when you start in, really feel the power of the internal validations of I'm doing the right thing for the right reasons, for the good, for supporting, for guiding, for making sure things are safe, whatever your world may look like, for getting the best results.
• 43:38
  Speaker 1: You know, I want to make sure that we do it in a way that's truthful and honest and compassionate and is thoughtful, and so I think for me, that's what I was kind of getting at, and I think some people just think, oh well, I'm just going to grin and bear it and I'm just going to, like, count my days or whatever, and I just think that's a waste of life.
• 43:55
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I think that that pain is incredible.
• 43:59
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 44:00
  Speaker 2: Yeah, so it's one of the great regrets and we write about this in the book.
• 44:03
  Speaker 2: It's widely known that one of the great regrets in the for people that reach their end of their life is, like I wish I would have, you know, been more present, been more connected to family.
• 44:13
  Speaker 2: I wish I would have lived life more in my terms rather than the world's terms, you know so, yeah, that pain is pretty gnarly when you get to the end of your life and you're like, oh, what have I done?
• 44:25
  Speaker 2: So that's why we ring the bell on understand your purpose, invest in the relationship with yourself so that you can invest in relationship with other people.
• 44:33
  Speaker 2: We ring that bell loud and clear and give you some very clear takeaways on how to do that.
• 44:37
  Speaker 2: Yeah, in the book.
• 44:39
  Speaker 1: And then bring the bell today because you don't know how long you have.
• 44:42
  Speaker 1: So like ring it loud, like get this book, dig into it, really start to soak it up and be open to potentially that and most likely you need to change something.
• 44:51
  Speaker 1: Yes, I think being open to that will be really, really important for folks.
• 44:56
  Speaker 1: Yeah, this book really is about freedom.
• 44:58
  Speaker 2: Yeah, you know, david Foster Wallace, as we highlight in the book, is one of the great writers of all you know historically tells a story and I'll wrap, I'll turn home base here on this with us is he tells a story of an old fish and two young fish and they're swimming across you know each other and across each other's path.
• 45:14
  Speaker 2: And the old fish says to the two young fish morning, boys, how's the water?
• 45:20
  Speaker 2: And the two young fish swim away for a little bit, don't say anything.
• 45:23
  Speaker 2: And then one of the bold fish says to the other fish the hell is water.
• 45:28
  Speaker 2: And so it's like.
• 45:30
  Speaker 2: The old fish asks an agitating question which is how's the water?
• 45:33
  Speaker 2: The two young fish didn't even realize they were swimming in it.
• 45:36
  Speaker 2: Yeah, that's the.
• 45:37
  Speaker 2: That's the cost of not looking at FOPO, is you don't even realize you're swimming in this soup of managing your impression of other people.
• 45:45
  Speaker 2: And the last thing here, fopo, stop worrying.
• 45:48
  Speaker 2: Worrying about what they think is not, stop caring.
• 45:52
  Speaker 2: So there's a difference between worrying about what people think and caring.
• 45:57
  Speaker 2: People that don't care are narcissists, sociopaths, maybe the enlightened.
• 46:01
  Speaker 2: If you're one of those three, this book is not for you, right, lollilama should not read this.
• 46:07
  Speaker 2: He doesn't need it, he's done, he's figured it out.
• 46:12
  Speaker 1: Well, thank you so much for being on the Bold Lounge.
• 46:14
  Speaker 1: Please check out all the information about the book and all the services that Dr Gervais provides.
• 46:20
  Speaker 1: Thank you so much for being on the Bold Lounge.
• 46:22
  Speaker 2: Thank you.
• 46:26
  Speaker 1: Thank you for listening to the Bold Lounge podcast.
• 46:29
  Speaker 1: Through the continuum of bold stories vulnerability to taking a leap you will meet more extraordinary people making a positive impact for others who they're unique and important story.
• 46:39
  Speaker 1: By highlighting these stories, we hope to inspire others and share the journey of those with a bold mindset.
• 46:44
  Speaker 1: We hope you've enjoyed this podcast and look forward to sharing the next bold journey with you.