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How to Write a Must-Read Book with AJ Harper · The Daily Writer

• 0:06
  SPEAKER_01: Welcome to the Daily Rider Podcast, where we bring you tips and inspiration each day to help you build habits for writing success.
• 0:14
  SPEAKER_01: For more resources, including your free Daily Rider Starter Kit, visit DailyWriterLife.com.
• 0:22
  SPEAKER_01: Everybody wants to write a book that others consider a must-read, but how do you accomplish that?
• 0:28
  SPEAKER_01: What kind of craft and skill goes into writing a book that other people are falling over themselves to read?
• 0:34
  SPEAKER_01: Well, that's the topic of conversation today, and I am thrilled to bring you this interview with A.J.
• 0:39
  SPEAKER_01: Harper, who is an editor and publishing strategist who helps authors write transformational books that enable them to build readership, grow their brand, and make a significant impact on the world.
• 0:51
  SPEAKER_01: As a ghostwriter and developmental editor, she's worked with hundreds of authors from newbies to New York Times bestselling authors with millions of books sold.
• 0:59
  SPEAKER_01: AJ teaches her method in her top three book workshop in the Must Read Editing Workshop.
• 1:06
  SPEAKER_01: She's the head writing coach for Heroic Public Speaking, the premier speaker training program created by Michael and Amy Port.
• 1:14
  SPEAKER_01: She's a writing partner to business author Mike McAllowitz, and together they've written nine books, including The Best Selling Profit First, a book which I have and which I really love.
• 1:24
  SPEAKER_01: And today we dive into her brand new book, which is called Write a Must Read: Craft a Book That Changes Lives, Including Your Own.
• 1:31
  SPEAKER_01: And in this conversation, AJ shares why a book is not just a better business card, why you need to have a reader-first mindset as a writer, what to do when you have a limited time to write, and what to do if you don't have a platform.
• 1:44
  SPEAKER_01: So this was a wide-ranging conversation, and I was so thrilled to be able to talk with AJ.
• 1:49
  SPEAKER_01: I followed her stuff for years, and it really was a lot of fun to get to talk to her and pick her brain with all the questions that I had been wanting to ask her for a long time.
• 1:57
  SPEAKER_01: So I hope you enjoy this conversation with the amazing, the gifted, and the talented AJ Harper.
• 2:03
  SPEAKER_01: AJ, it's really wonderful to have you here.
• 2:06
  SPEAKER_01: As I was mentioning before I hit record on this, I've been kind of lurking around, lurking, not lurking in the shadows, because that sounds creepy and weird.
• 2:15
  SPEAKER_01: That's almost like a scene out of Stranger Things or something.
• 2:18
  SPEAKER_01: But I have been kind of lurking uh and following your work for a number of years, and I've signed up for a couple of your webinars and everything, and just really appreciate it.
• 2:27
  SPEAKER_01: So I'm absolutely thrilled that uh I get to have you on the show today.
• 2:30
  SPEAKER_01: So welcome.
• 2:31
  SPEAKER_02: Thanks.
• 2:32
  SPEAKER_02: I'm really excited to talk shop with you.
• 2:35
  SPEAKER_01: So I've got to say I really love your latest book, Write a Must Read.
• 2:40
  SPEAKER_01: It's a great title, but it's also a phenomenal book.
• 2:42
  SPEAKER_01: I'm kind of curious why now to do this book.
• 2:45
  SPEAKER_01: Um, you've been writing for a long time.
• 2:49
  SPEAKER_01: So why was now the perfect time for you to distill all your writing wisdom into a book and get that out to the world?
• 2:57
  SPEAKER_02: Well, a slight correction.
• 2:59
  SPEAKER_02: It is not my latest book.
• 3:01
  SPEAKER_02: It's my only book with my name on it.
• 3:04
  SPEAKER_02: Um, I've ghostwritten more books than I can count and edited, I don't even know, 110.
• 3:11
  SPEAKER_01: Well, yeah, and what I mean is um, so this is the book where you've distilled all of your writing knowledge.
• 3:17
  SPEAKER_01: And I'm curious, like, why was now the time to do this?
• 3:21
  SPEAKER_01: Um because it just is coming at such a great time.
• 3:26
  SPEAKER_02: It is.
• 3:27
  SPEAKER_02: Why do you think it's a great time?
• 3:29
  SPEAKER_02: I'm wondering.
• 3:30
  SPEAKER_01: I think it's a great time because something I believe now I could be wrong about this, but my perception is that something has shifted the last couple of years.
• 3:38
  SPEAKER_01: I think the pandemic probably had something to do with this, but I don't think that that's all of it.
• 3:42
  SPEAKER_01: It's that there's so much chaos in the world right now, at least as I perceive it.
• 3:47
  SPEAKER_01: I know the world's always been chaotic, but I think a lot more people seem to want to write books and they seem more motivated to do that.
• 3:55
  SPEAKER_01: So this seems like the perfect time to come out with your message, but also I think it's a super refreshing antidote to so much of the marketing stuff out there that is really I'm sorry, I'm sorry, so much of the writing stuff that is driven by so much marketing.
• 4:10
  SPEAKER_01: You know, and obviously marketing is important and good, but your book is really focused on the reader and the craft of writing.
• 4:16
  SPEAKER_01: So it seems like perfect timing.
• 4:17
  SPEAKER_02: I'm glad you said that.
• 4:19
  SPEAKER_02: I'm thank you for answering my question before I answered yours.
• 4:22
  SPEAKER_02: But I'm curious about it because I actually started writing the book before the pandemic.
• 4:26
  SPEAKER_02: And I think it's just divine timing.
• 4:28
  SPEAKER_02: We see that so much with books, though.
• 4:31
  SPEAKER_02: Uh, I was delayed a lot due to some personal health challenges that were actually a lot related to the pandemic.
• 4:38
  SPEAKER_02: But I wanted to write it initially because I saw that the process I teach in the book, which is the process I teach in my workshop, was working so well for authors.
• 4:49
  SPEAKER_02: And before, when people would ask me, you should write a book about writing, I would always say, I'm never doing that.
• 4:56
  SPEAKER_02: Um, because I thought only I knew how to do what I knew how to do.
• 5:00
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 5:01
  SPEAKER_02: And I couldn't teach someone else.
• 5:02
  SPEAKER_02: So once I knew that I was able to teach it and it could work, then I thought, you know, let me get this to as many people as possible because very few people can necessarily take my class.
• 5:15
  SPEAKER_02: I only take 30 new students a year.
• 5:17
  SPEAKER_02: So I thought this way I can democratize this and we can get more people writing better books.
• 5:25
  SPEAKER_01: So you basically worked out this material in the workshops and with your students before you, in a sense, codified it into a book.
• 5:34
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, for sure.
• 5:34
  SPEAKER_02: So this is how I always wrote books for 10 years as a ghostwriter, writing exclusively for personal and professional development books, prescriptive nonfiction.
• 5:44
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and I just did it.
• 5:46
  SPEAKER_02: I didn't really think too hard about how I did what I, you know, my own system.
• 5:53
  SPEAKER_02: And so, yes, I created a workshop for and then for a number of years, kept testing it and refining things before I put pen to paper for this book.
• 6:03
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 6:04
  SPEAKER_01: Can you walk us back to the beginning of how you actually got started as a ghostwriter?
• 6:11
  SPEAKER_01: So a lot of people who listen to my show, they know that I'm a ghostwriter.
• 6:14
  SPEAKER_01: I have not been at it as long as you have, so it's been fun to learn from you and your processes and particularly this book and everything.
• 6:20
  SPEAKER_01: But I'm curious, how did you actually get your start in ghostwriting?
• 6:24
  SPEAKER_01: Because a lot of people get their start as a writer, they put out a book or they do do blogging or something, but but I'm curious what your journey was into ghostwriting.
• 6:34
  SPEAKER_02: Well, it's not romantic at all.
• 6:36
  SPEAKER_02: It's uh I was I was a playwright for a really long time and then I had a baby and moved to New York.
• 6:43
  SPEAKER_02: And a playwright means you usually also have another full-time job because there's not any money.
• 6:50
  SPEAKER_02: Uh, and I just didn't want to have that kind of life with my child.
• 6:53
  SPEAKER_02: So I thought I'm never gonna have that a straight job again.
• 6:58
  SPEAKER_02: And somebody told me about elance, which is now up work.
• 7:01
  SPEAKER_02: I had zero samples, I had plays, if you can imagine.
• 7:06
  SPEAKER_02: That's it, and no no other credits.
• 7:08
  SPEAKER_02: And so I just said, I'm gonna figure this out.
• 7:11
  SPEAKER_02: And I did.
• 7:13
  SPEAKER_02: I wrote anything and everything as long as it wasn't legal, and I do mean anything and like really some stuff I probably like I really didn't want to write.
• 7:21
  SPEAKER_02: Um, but it was there that I started writing ghostwriting articles, blogs, and short books.
• 7:27
  SPEAKER_02: And then within about a year, maybe less, I had my first big profess, you know, personal development book was a book about relationships.
• 7:37
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 7:38
  SPEAKER_02: And that I just got lucky because I'm because I was a playwright, I could do a person's voice.
• 7:46
  SPEAKER_02: And I didn't know that at the time that that was a skill I was going to need, but I could become I had a good ear, I could absolutely become them so that no one knew that they didn't write it.
• 7:57
  SPEAKER_02: So that I did that for this person, and she was uh unbeknownst to me because I was such a novice, she seemed to think that was rare.
• 8:08
  SPEAKER_02: So she started just slipping my number to folks.
• 8:12
  SPEAKER_02: And within a couple years, I was writing books all the time.
• 8:17
  SPEAKER_01: Wow.
• 8:18
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, it was it was just luck that I got that one job, and she happened to know a bunch of folks.
• 8:23
  SPEAKER_01: So when you got into writing for others, did you did you find it easy to listen for their voice, to in a sense mimic their voice into writing their style?
• 8:34
  SPEAKER_01: Like, is that something that because you you came from the world of of storytelling and being a playwright, is that something that naturally seemed like a great progression?
• 8:45
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, it I didn't know it at the time.
• 8:47
  SPEAKER_02: I didn't I didn't understand why people were saying to me, Oh my gosh, I can't believe you know how to do me so well.
• 8:55
  SPEAKER_02: And I didn't understand that problem because again, I was a total novice.
• 9:00
  SPEAKER_02: So I didn't know that this was an issue.
• 9:02
  SPEAKER_02: I know now that it is a challenge to find someone who can absolutely be you.
• 9:07
  SPEAKER_02: But it is because I had for more than 15 years been training as a playwright, and a lot of what we do is creating characters, listening to how people talk.
• 9:17
  SPEAKER_02: We're always observing cadences, rhythms, patterns, the way people speak, what they react to, how they react.
• 9:24
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and so I'm just had already trained myself to do that, which made me the perfect candidate to be a ghostwriter.
• 9:32
  SPEAKER_01: Have you ever thought about going in, going back into that world of screenwriting, playwrights?
• 9:38
  SPEAKER_01: Uh playwrights, isn't that actually a word?
• 9:41
  SPEAKER_01: Um, you know, writing for the stage or screen or some other kinds of things, novels, those kinds of things.
• 9:48
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I mean, I've edited more than a hundred novels.
• 9:51
  SPEAKER_02: So I have I also about um nine years ago started a publishing company and we sold it earlier this year to Chicago Review Press.
• 9:59
  SPEAKER_02: And for that, I was the sole developmental editor.
• 10:03
  SPEAKER_02: So I I edited more than a hundred novels.
• 10:06
  SPEAKER_02: I love fiction and I would love to get back to it.
• 10:09
  SPEAKER_02: I just have a real knack for understanding how to write a book that actually connects and that delivers on its promise.
• 10:20
  SPEAKER_02: And I love teaching people how to do it.
• 10:22
  SPEAKER_01: Well, that's a good transition into some themes from your book, which of course we want to talk about today because that's why you're here.
• 10:28
  SPEAKER_01: So in your book, Write a Must Read, you talk about a reader-first mindset.
• 10:33
  SPEAKER_01: And I had actually never heard that phraseology before.
• 10:35
  SPEAKER_01: Can you talk about what that is and why that is such a necessary thing when you're creating a book?
• 10:42
  SPEAKER_02: Sure.
• 10:43
  SPEAKER_02: So, you know, the core message of my book, as you know, since you read it, is a book is not about something, a book is for someone.
• 10:49
  SPEAKER_02: And when you make that, thank you.
• 10:52
  SPEAKER_02: That that core message, you know, that took some time.
• 10:55
  SPEAKER_02: I knew that's what I meant, but it took me a while to get at that.
• 10:58
  SPEAKER_02: Reader first is something that I always believed.
• 11:01
  SPEAKER_02: And I think it actually, I didn't put this story in the book, but since we're both writers, I can geek out about this with you a little bit.
• 11:09
  SPEAKER_02: Um, I realized that when I was a playwright, I put my audience first.
• 11:13
  SPEAKER_02: So a lot of playwrights have this view, you know, sometimes you go to see a show, and you know, if you don't understand it, you know it's good.
• 11:20
  SPEAKER_02: You know, um, it's very highbrow.
• 11:23
  SPEAKER_02: And I was a very different kind of playwright.
• 11:25
  SPEAKER_02: I wanted the audience to have a great couple hours, whether they were laughing or crying or both.
• 11:31
  SPEAKER_02: And I was very focused on their experience versus my own artistry.
• 11:35
  SPEAKER_02: And I see now that that's the same value I carry forward into authorship.
• 11:40
  SPEAKER_02: When you focus on the reader, it changes everything.
• 11:45
  SPEAKER_02: So that now you're writing for what they need for the change that they want to occur.
• 11:50
  SPEAKER_02: And every decision you make when you put the reader first is easier to make and also more impactful.
• 11:58
  SPEAKER_02: Reader first at every single stage of the game ensures that you aren't writing things they don't need, that you aren't writing stuff that's indulgent, that's focused on your own ego, that's fluff.
• 12:10
  SPEAKER_02: It also challenges you to come up with things you might not have thought to do because you're trying to get them to that end goal of whatever it is they want within the pages of your book.
• 12:20
  SPEAKER_02: So it's a it's not just an idea and it's not something you do just at the beginning of the process.
• 12:26
  SPEAKER_02: You know, everyone says write for your ideal reader, but reader first is a mindset that it's really more like a craft of considering it the whole way through.
• 12:35
  SPEAKER_01: You know, this is all really interesting, and I'd never thought about this before, but whenever somebody does a screenplay, or whenever you're doing anything for movies or TV shows, they always have the audience in mind.
• 12:48
  SPEAKER_01: So we're trying to figure out what's going to move the audience, what's the best story that they're gonna enjoy?
• 12:52
  SPEAKER_01: What can we cut out of the of a four-hour movie to get it down to the proper length, those kind of things?
• 12:57
  SPEAKER_01: Why do you think that that is such a it seems like such a rare thing in the book world where we're not always thinking about our readers, we're thinking about what I want to say or the topic or something else.
• 13:10
  SPEAKER_01: Like, is there something fundamentally different about the world of TV and movies where it is so audience-centered versus the book world that is not always audience-centered?
• 13:22
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, I think those that who it's just such a good question.
• 13:25
  SPEAKER_02: Oh my gosh, I love that question.
• 13:29
  SPEAKER_02: If you're writing for audiences that are in seats or watching on Netflix or whatever, you know you have to build up a fan base for that thing.
• 13:41
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 13:42
  SPEAKER_02: And if you're writing a book that's just because you want to check a bucket like this box, or you said it's just lead gen, or I'm just gonna have it at my speaker conference, or I just want to say I have it, you aren't you don't care about that.
• 13:58
  SPEAKER_02: Um, there's definitely fiction writers and non-fiction writers who do care about audience, and those are the people that are, I mean, if you really look at who's super successful, with exceptions, there's always outliers who do it who succeed in spite of all this, but those are people who really care and think about how to serve them.
• 14:19
  SPEAKER_01: Boy, I had never really thought about this before.
• 14:21
  SPEAKER_01: And and maybe maybe it has something to do with when you're when you're involved in things like um, you know, Broadway or TV or movies, like there are certain metrics that you have to meet.
• 14:32
  SPEAKER_01: If there's no behinds in the seats in the auditorium, the play is not going to go on, the show is not gonna go on.
• 14:39
  SPEAKER_01: But with books, it's such a different thing because you can put it out there so quickly and so easily in many cases, and a lot of people do that, but then the results oftentimes are not what they hoped for because it wasn't focused on the reader experience.
• 14:51
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 14:51
  SPEAKER_02: And focusing on the reader experience is not just in the writing and editing phase, it's also in marketing, it's also in reader engagement, which a lot of authors drop the ball on that.
• 15:00
  SPEAKER_02: They put the book out, but they're not actually engaging with readers after the fact, and they have no plan to do so.
• 15:05
  SPEAKER_02: So it's really thinking about it holistically.
• 15:08
  SPEAKER_02: Are you building an audience that you're going to serve?
• 15:11
  SPEAKER_02: Um, or are you just getting a book out to get a book out?
• 15:14
  SPEAKER_01: One of the themes that I hear about a lot, and maybe you, I'm sure you come across this too, is people don't come out and say this, but a lot of writers are introverted.
• 15:24
  SPEAKER_01: And the idea of marketing their book, of getting on podcasts, of doing a lot of social kinds of things feels intimidating.
• 15:30
  SPEAKER_01: It feels scary, and they're like, I only have this much emotional energy, and I can't go out there and do all these things.
• 15:36
  SPEAKER_01: How have you seen successfully?
• 15:39
  SPEAKER_01: What am I trying to ask?
• 15:41
  SPEAKER_01: How have you seen successful introverted writers market their book in a way that is natural and effective?
• 15:47
  SPEAKER_02: That oh my gosh, you're asking the best questions.
• 15:50
  SPEAKER_02: I'm loving this.
• 15:51
  SPEAKER_02: Uh, I'm introverted and I'm here on this podcast, but I care so much, and that's the piece of it.
• 15:59
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 15:59
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 15:59
  SPEAKER_02: So you want to get wanna get your message out to as many people as possible.
• 16:06
  SPEAKER_02: Uh, you know, in um I write a ghostwrite, I don't ghostwrite anymore, but I write collaboratively.
• 16:12
  SPEAKER_02: So Mike McAllow is as a writing partner of mine who wrote we've together we've written nine books.
• 16:17
  SPEAKER_02: We're on book 10 now.
• 16:19
  SPEAKER_02: We have a different kind of writing relationship than a traditional ghostwriter.
• 16:23
  SPEAKER_02: But in Get Different, we talk about how you've got to care so much that people are going to get your thing, versus maybe you disagree with someone else and their approach, and you really want people to understand and get this thing you have, that you have to care so much that you will you'll get over yourself, basically, about all of your fears about putting yourself out there.
• 16:48
  SPEAKER_02: And the authors I've seen who've really grown, I'm thinking of one fiction author, for example, uh Julian Winters, who I published with my company, and now he's a pretty big deal, young adult author, published with Viking, an imprint of Penguin Random House.
• 17:03
  SPEAKER_02: And he's an introvert, like so many authors, but he cares.
• 17:07
  SPEAKER_02: So I think you have to really get that reader-first mindset when you're thinking about authorship.
• 17:12
  SPEAKER_02: But then he just thinks about how he can be generous and supportive of his readers and um what's going to be the fastest and best way for him to connect with them.
• 17:25
  SPEAKER_02: So part of that reader-first philosophy is you don't have to hang out in every place, you don't have to do every podcast, you don't have to be everywhere all the time.
• 17:33
  SPEAKER_02: It's where are your people and what would serve them best.
• 17:37
  SPEAKER_01: I love the way that that you did your book launch recently for Right and Must Read because it was very reader-centric.
• 17:45
  SPEAKER_01: And it was very chill, it was very relaxed.
• 17:49
  SPEAKER_01: And I I don't even know how to express this, but it like your personality just came across in the whole launch, you know, in the emails that you sent out.
• 17:55
  SPEAKER_01: It was kind of like, hey, here's my book.
• 17:57
  SPEAKER_01: There wasn't a lot, there wasn't like 57 emails in three days, you know, kind of a deal that happens a lot.
• 18:02
  SPEAKER_01: But it was just very relaxed, and I loved the way that you did that.
• 18:05
  SPEAKER_01: Can you share a little bit about some of the things that you did for for this book launch and generally how you approached it?
• 18:12
  SPEAKER_02: Sure.
• 18:12
  SPEAKER_02: Well, I should say I had a lot of help.
• 18:14
  SPEAKER_02: So that's important to note that Amberville Hauer, um, who's a great book uh coach or um sorry, book launch coach and coordinator, she helped me out.
• 18:25
  SPEAKER_02: And then I have Laura Stone on my team who's fantastic at helping me with all the details, which probably none of that would have happened eitherwise because I'm usually thinking all the time instead of doing.
• 18:38
  SPEAKER_02: But I chose specifically a certain number of events that would be meaningful to me.
• 18:44
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 18:44
  SPEAKER_02: Um, I wanted to do a something on the day that showcased the writers I've worked with and their wonderful messages and books, and that also would put us in discussion to be helpful to people who are working on books.
• 19:00
  SPEAKER_02: And so I put to brought together authors who could I'd worked with who could talk about specific topics that are in the book.
• 19:06
  SPEAKER_02: So I think that's helpful to look at your book.
• 19:09
  SPEAKER_02: What are some of the main takeaways?
• 19:10
  SPEAKER_02: Who can talk about that and get a little discussion going?
• 19:13
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 19:14
  SPEAKER_02: But then I also did hot seats with core message and addressing different things that people had questions, did 10-minute hot seats with folks who are working on stuff because I like to be of service.
• 19:24
  SPEAKER_02: And then I'm not so afraid that wouldn't have worked for me to do just a big fireworks display on a launch day because at I'm not that kind of person and I would have felt uncomfortable and I probably would have canceled it.
• 19:35
  unknown: Yeah.
• 19:35
  SPEAKER_02: But if I know I'm gonna show up and help someone, I'll be there.
• 19:38
  SPEAKER_02: And then another thing that I really love doing was my Monday night reading, which is something I do, I don't do in summers, but I do the first of the month and Monday night reading with authors that are in my program or affiliated with me, because nonfiction authors don't get to do readings.
• 19:54
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 19:55
  SPEAKER_02: And I'm in a fiction world as well.
• 19:57
  SPEAKER_02: And I thought, this is silly, we've got great stories too.
• 20:00
  SPEAKER_02: So I always like to highlight on Monday nights, first night of the month.
• 20:04
  SPEAKER_02: And so I did one of those for myself, which was really lovely and uh a different kind of tone than launch day, but I kept the rest of it really, really simple.
• 20:14
  SPEAKER_01: That's that's really that's really cool, first of all, but it's also unusual because there's so much advice out there related to book launches that it's got to be this huge, massive affair.
• 20:25
  SPEAKER_01: And uh I think particularly introverted people can feel really stressed out by that.
• 20:30
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, and I I do, I mean, to be clear though, I'm have a plan that I'm executing over the next five years.
• 20:37
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, which I love.
• 20:38
  SPEAKER_02: This is an important thing for people to understand is we get burned out trying to put all our energy into the launch, and you do need to get buzz going.
• 20:46
  SPEAKER_02: It's not like you should let it go by in a whimper.
• 20:49
  SPEAKER_02: But you gotta have a sustainable plan for keeping your book top of mind and getting into different markets, but it's impossible to do it all.
• 20:58
  SPEAKER_02: Now, if I was trying to get on a major list like the New York Times or Wall Street Journal or something, I would have had to pull out all the stops.
• 21:04
  SPEAKER_02: But it's I just decided I can't mess with that, so let me be free.
• 21:09
  SPEAKER_01: I love that.
• 21:10
  SPEAKER_01: How important is it?
• 21:12
  SPEAKER_01: Because you've been involved in the book world a long time, how important is it for someone to hit the New York Times bestseller list?
• 21:18
  SPEAKER_01: There's a lot of discussion about that.
• 21:19
  SPEAKER_01: Or I guess sort of a corollary is you know, USA Today or Wall Street Journal.
• 21:24
  SPEAKER_01: How much does being on those lists actually matter in the long run?
• 21:27
  SPEAKER_02: It's still a huge deal.
• 21:28
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, it is still I would love to be on it one day myself.
• 21:32
  SPEAKER_02: But you know, if you're on it for one week, it then you're just getting then you're just getting to say that.
• 21:38
  SPEAKER_02: It's not really what what's really a big deal is if you're on it for a while.
• 21:44
  unknown: Yeah.
• 21:44
  SPEAKER_02: Then what you see, yeah, or even just a few months, that shows a real ground groundswell of interest in your book, which you know can happen when you have a great book and a lot of people are reading it and telling people about it.
• 21:59
  SPEAKER_02: That's simple.
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_02: I think it's really helpful if you're trying to get another book deal or if you want to up your speaking or whatever.
• 22:06
  SPEAKER_02: It's impressive to be able to say New York Times Bestline author and you can say it forever.
• 22:11
  SPEAKER_02: That said, you'd be shocked how many people have been on the list and haven't really sold that many books after that.
• 22:18
  SPEAKER_02: Or maybe you wouldn't be because you're in this industry.
• 22:21
  SPEAKER_01: It is interesting.
• 22:23
  SPEAKER_01: So my wife used to work at the Barnes and Noble that's just down the street from my house, here just outside of St.
• 22:27
  SPEAKER_01: Louis.
• 22:28
  SPEAKER_01: And I remember her talking about, I can't remember the author's name.
• 22:31
  SPEAKER_01: And even if I could have been read, I probably wouldn't say it because I don't want to say anything negative.
• 22:35
  SPEAKER_01: But I remember this one author who whose fiction books had been on the New York Times bestseller list, multiple books over the years.
• 22:42
  SPEAKER_01: And but she still was not making enough from her from her books to support her.
• 22:47
  SPEAKER_01: She was still like working a regular job.
• 22:48
  SPEAKER_01: And I was like, wait a minute, that's crazy.
• 22:51
  SPEAKER_01: But it's true, you know, just because you're on a big list doesn't necessarily mean you have massive sales or or you can devote you know a full-time career to writing, I guess.
• 23:02
  SPEAKER_02: Well, you know, you have that brief window to get on the times list when they'll calculate all your pre-order sales and the first week of sales.
• 23:10
  SPEAKER_02: So what you're looking at is months of work, right?
• 23:12
  SPEAKER_02: And then to sustain that is really hard.
• 23:14
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 23:15
  SPEAKER_02: Um, for sure.
• 23:16
  SPEAKER_02: Those people who are on the list for a long time, yeah, they're making some cash.
• 23:19
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 23:20
  SPEAKER_02: For sure.
• 23:20
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 23:21
  SPEAKER_02: Um, but just the one hit that that they may go down to a trickle after that.
• 23:26
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 23:26
  SPEAKER_01: I guess getting on it at all is a huge blessing, you know, and something a lot of people aspire to.
• 23:32
  SPEAKER_02: For sure.
• 23:33
  SPEAKER_02: It's just it's like a military operation to try and get it.
• 23:36
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, like there's there's so there's so many variables, as you know, so many things you have to consider.
• 23:41
  SPEAKER_02: I actually thought about doing it just as an experiment for my students to see to have them show them all the me running around like a chicken with the head cut off trying to do this thing.
• 23:51
  SPEAKER_02: But I uh ultimately opted for what would make me happy and what was in integrity with how I am.
• 23:59
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, totally.
• 24:01
  SPEAKER_01: Something that you talk about in the book is the idea that a a book is not a better business card.
• 24:08
  SPEAKER_01: And I I think I may have laughed out loud when I read that because so many times, you know, I've heard in the entrepreneur online space, you know, a book is a great business card.
• 24:19
  SPEAKER_01: What do you mean by going against that conventional wisdom?
• 24:23
  SPEAKER_02: First of all, they've been saying that since I started 17 years ago, and my aim in life is to kill it.
• 24:28
  SPEAKER_02: And more specifically, I want it to be this thing that we whisper like it's a dirty word and we're not supposed to say it out loud because it's so passe, right?
• 24:36
  SPEAKER_02: I'm hoping for that.
• 24:38
  SPEAKER_02: Um, first of all, I don't know how many business cards you keep, but most of mine are in the garbage.
• 24:44
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 24:44
  SPEAKER_01: I don't think I have any.
• 24:46
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 24:47
  SPEAKER_02: It's a business card is information about who somebody is, but it's not in any way a game changer for the person who's holding it.
• 24:55
  SPEAKER_02: And uh if you have an attitude of, I just need a better business card, or I just need to check this box, or I have to, I need a book so I can do this next thing, whether it's be a speaker, raise my fees, shift to keynotes, open them, you know, sell a million dollars in a program, whatever it is, you you're just not holding yourself to a standard that's useful to readers.
• 25:21
  SPEAKER_02: You might get lucky and they like it, and that's fine.
• 25:25
  SPEAKER_02: The irony is when you do hold yourself to that standard, I will make this useful.
• 25:30
  SPEAKER_02: I will make sure that they get what they want from this experience.
• 25:33
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I will connect with them, I will provide excellence.
• 25:37
  SPEAKER_02: I'm not gonna take shortcuts, then all those things you want, you get them times 10.
• 25:42
  SPEAKER_02: That's the irony, is you're trying to get all this stuff, right?
• 25:45
  SPEAKER_02: But you're taking the shortcut.
• 25:47
  SPEAKER_02: And if you would just do the thing and try your best and really care, you would get 10 times what you want because now you have a book that people actually read, hello, instead of put on in the garbage or the free table at the garage sale.
• 26:03
  SPEAKER_02: But you have a book people are talking about because they loved it so much.
• 26:06
  SPEAKER_01: Exactly.
• 26:07
  SPEAKER_01: And that's what we want ultimately.
• 26:09
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 26:10
  SPEAKER_02: Word of mouth.
• 26:12
  SPEAKER_01: Something else you talk about in the book, and I think a lot of people are interested in this.
• 26:17
  SPEAKER_01: Anybody who writes, of course, is I don't have time to write.
• 26:21
  SPEAKER_01: That's something you probably hear a lot from people.
• 26:23
  SPEAKER_01: I hear a lot from people.
• 26:24
  SPEAKER_01: And in the book, you do talk about here's what to do if you have a limited time to write.
• 26:28
  SPEAKER_01: For those who have not read your book yet, can you share a little bit of wisdom about if you only have a little bit of time to write, how do you actually make progress on your book?
• 26:36
  SPEAKER_02: Well, I think first you have to make sure you've done all the developmental work on your book so that you know your reader, your core message, your promise, you have an outline.
• 26:45
  SPEAKER_02: Not writing to an outline that's well developed is a problem.
• 26:48
  SPEAKER_02: So it's not going to be efficient.
• 26:50
  SPEAKER_02: Once you have that, just choosing something on your detailed outline and trying to knock out even 50 words.
• 26:58
  SPEAKER_02: I'm serious.
• 26:59
  SPEAKER_02: And 50 words is less than a paragraph or a short paragraph.
• 27:03
  SPEAKER_02: Anyone could do it.
• 27:04
  SPEAKER_02: You could do it on the bus, you could do it while you're drying your hair, you can you can do it.
• 27:08
  SPEAKER_02: I didn't say 50 good words.
• 27:09
  SPEAKER_02: I just said 50 words.
• 27:12
  SPEAKER_02: That you can squeeze that in.
• 27:14
  SPEAKER_02: The problem is we think we need these big, we need to take a sabbatical to write, or we have to get two weeks off to write.
• 27:22
  SPEAKER_02: And maybe that is what you need.
• 27:23
  SPEAKER_02: But my experience, I've tried it all, believe me.
• 27:26
  SPEAKER_02: So my experience is it's that steady hitting it on a regular basis, whether for me it's five days a week, for other people, it might be shorter every day.
• 27:35
  SPEAKER_02: Just a little bit to keep it top of mind.
• 27:37
  SPEAKER_02: And over time, you will actually finish.
• 27:40
  SPEAKER_02: You'd be surprised how quickly you can finish.
• 27:43
  SPEAKER_02: This is coming from someone who was perpetually late as a ghostwriter.
• 27:47
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, shockingly late all the time.
• 27:51
  SPEAKER_01: Do you mean like outlines, books, the whole, the whole kitten caboodle?
• 27:55
  SPEAKER_02: Well, uh, the deadline to finish books, I I was uh terrible at that.
• 28:01
  SPEAKER_02: And it's it's because I didn't understand how to take care of myself, you know, and say no to things.
• 28:07
  SPEAKER_02: So I would end up with 10 books at the same time or some silly thing like that.
• 28:13
  SPEAKER_02: Uh, I wasn't very good about saying, I need more time for this, and you want me to take the time because that means I'm gonna think about it and you want me to think about it.
• 28:21
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 28:22
  SPEAKER_02: I just didn't advocate for myself, so I backed myself into 80 million corners and it was not good.
• 28:29
  SPEAKER_01: One thing that that I heard uh you talk about this is a session that you did with with Mike Mikalowitz.
• 28:35
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and I think I believe this was for your book launch a couple months ago.
• 28:39
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 28:39
  SPEAKER_01: That you were talking about somebody had asked the question on in that session, what if you don't have any kind of a platform as a writer?
• 28:46
  SPEAKER_01: Should you wait to build up a platform or should you go ahead and do the book, or or how should you think about that?
• 28:52
  SPEAKER_01: Because so much of what we hear today is the need to build a platform or an audience.
• 28:56
  SPEAKER_01: What are your thoughts on that?
• 28:57
  SPEAKER_01: Should you wait till you have a platform or should you just get started on it?
• 29:00
  SPEAKER_02: You should just get started and you should use the process of getting started to build the platform.
• 29:05
  SPEAKER_02: You know, when you since you mentioned Mike, and yeah, that's called um uh that was a little webinar we did called Good Book.
• 29:11
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, that's right.
• 29:12
  SPEAKER_00: That's right.
• 29:13
  SPEAKER_02: It's actually on my YouTube channel.
• 29:14
  SPEAKER_02: You can watch anyone can get it anytime they want.
• 29:16
  SPEAKER_02: It's pretty, pretty interesting.
• 29:18
  SPEAKER_02: Combo.
• 29:19
  SPEAKER_02: He had nothing, he had a little blog nobody was reading.
• 29:23
  SPEAKER_02: That's really it.
• 29:24
  SPEAKER_02: So he has quite a platform now, it happened over time.
• 29:27
  SPEAKER_02: But I think um the process of testing your content, of starting to talk about your book, of getting to talk with other authors, which is a huge part of authorship, that all happens when you've started the process, initiated the process.
• 29:41
  SPEAKER_02: So I think just to get going, plus, it takes much longer than you think, as you know, to ideate, to really get at the truth of what you're trying to do, to develop right.
• 29:53
  SPEAKER_02: Editing takes 10 times more time than people think.
• 29:56
  SPEAKER_02: So, uh, and then if you're trying to go traditional, you've got all that that whole process to go through, which is long.
• 30:01
  SPEAKER_02: So why wait?
• 30:05
  SPEAKER_01: Can you uh share a little bit about what the actual process is like when you work with Mike to develop a book?
• 30:10
  SPEAKER_01: Because you have kind of a unique arrangement with him.
• 30:12
  SPEAKER_01: Well, first of all, you've done lots of books with him, which is in and of itself, I think that is fairly unique in the ghostwriting world.
• 30:19
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but you also have a unique process just for collaboration.
• 30:24
  SPEAKER_01: Can you walk through some of those elements and how you take a book from concept all the way to a finished product?
• 30:29
  unknown: Sure.
• 30:31
  SPEAKER_02: Sure.
• 30:31
  SPEAKER_02: So to be clear, on his first book, which is called The Toilet Paper Entrepreneur, um, he that was at work for higher situation, and he had just met me, and I and I basically did an overhaul on that book, which he already had a draft.
• 30:46
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 30:46
  SPEAKER_02: That, you know, he was willing to accept my guidance on about 75%, 70% of what I said, right?
• 30:54
  SPEAKER_02: That process, we learned that we were at a good chemistry together, but also he learned to be a good listener and take advice.
• 31:04
  SPEAKER_02: And so he actually came to me for a second book, which was the pumpkin plan, which he had a traditional deal for that, and said, Can we be partners?
• 31:12
  SPEAKER_02: Never in my entire ghostwriting career did I ever say yes to that.
• 31:16
  SPEAKER_02: Uh, when people always, I don't know if they do this with you, where they say, Can you write my book?
• 31:21
  SPEAKER_02: And then you can get a percentage of the advance, or I don't know if anyone says it has not happened yet.
• 31:26
  SPEAKER_01: I okay maybe it will happen in the future, but it hasn't yet.
• 31:30
  SPEAKER_02: I always said no.
• 31:31
  SPEAKER_02: And I always said no because I actually think authors have no idea how much is required to sell their book.
• 31:37
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 31:38
  SPEAKER_02: And so I knew that it wasn't gonna, I wasn't gonna make much, if anything at all, if I did it that.
• 31:44
  SPEAKER_02: But I knew he was a hustler and that he was acting in the best term, not the negative term, that he was going to actually work to sell his book.
• 31:52
  SPEAKER_02: And I thought, okay, let me take a chance on this guy.
• 31:55
  SPEAKER_02: And so at that point, we entered into a partnership arrangement.
• 31:58
  SPEAKER_02: And so when he wins, I win.
• 32:00
  SPEAKER_02: When he loses, I lose.
• 32:02
  SPEAKER_02: And I love that arrangement because I'm totally invested.
• 32:08
  SPEAKER_02: So our partnership is a 365-day thing where we're I we're either finishing one book and start, we're always in rotation before we even get through copy edits on one book.
• 32:19
  SPEAKER_02: We have already decided on the next one.
• 32:22
  SPEAKER_02: We collaborate.
• 32:24
  SPEAKER_02: Um, first there's the I and stop me if I'm telling you too much.
• 32:28
  SPEAKER_01: No, this is phenomenal.
• 32:29
  SPEAKER_01: I love it.
• 32:30
  SPEAKER_02: Okay, so Mike has a list of books he wants to write.
• 32:33
  SPEAKER_02: We will sit down.
• 32:34
  SPEAKER_02: The first meeting will be which of these books is right now.
• 32:39
  SPEAKER_02: And we always ask the question I asked him with the pumpkin plan, which was book two.
• 32:44
  SPEAKER_02: I said this isn't about which book you want to write next.
• 32:46
  SPEAKER_02: This is about what your reader needs next.
• 32:48
  SPEAKER_02: And this is a reader first thing.
• 32:50
  SPEAKER_01: That's good.
• 32:50
  SPEAKER_02: So people have a tenant, I want to write this.
• 32:53
  SPEAKER_02: Well, that's great, but maybe they don't actually want need that right now.
• 32:57
  SPEAKER_02: So he has probably 20 books, he keeps everything in Evernote.
• 33:01
  SPEAKER_02: And he'll keep he'll just keep sharing ideas.
• 33:05
  SPEAKER_02: So then we'll sit down, he'll say one of these three or four books.
• 33:08
  SPEAKER_02: Meanwhile, by the way, he's been testing stuff this whole time without me.
• 33:12
  SPEAKER_02: So he'll test his theories, his practices, strategies in the real world all the time.
• 33:19
  SPEAKER_02: Once we say, Oh, it's probably this one, you know, I think we need they need this, then we set up a retreat, which is really fun.
• 33:29
  SPEAKER_02: And we go through, honestly, it's the process in my book.
• 33:32
  SPEAKER_02: It's the same process I teach in the workshop where we, even though we know we're a reader, we still go through everything.
• 33:37
  SPEAKER_02: We it's two days, we go rent a Airbnb, and uh we spend it's probably like 10, 12 hours that first day just going through everything single step that I have in the book, nailing that.
• 33:52
  SPEAKER_02: And by the end of the first day, we usually already have outline and we can we can streamline that because of or we, you know, we've been working together a long time.
• 34:00
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, we know each other well.
• 34:01
  SPEAKER_02: Then the next day we make a plan, and then we'll meet again.
• 34:06
  SPEAKER_02: Uh make a plan for the pitch.
• 34:09
  SPEAKER_02: So we'll do the pitch then to the publisher, and once the publisher accepts it, then we meet again for a half day and we bang out exactly what content do we need, what kind of stories do we need for each chapter?
• 34:23
  SPEAKER_02: And I give Mike a to-do list and I have my own to-do list of gathering.
• 34:28
  SPEAKER_02: So he'll record stuff for me.
• 34:32
  SPEAKER_02: He'll we'll we do a lot of interviewing together for the book we're working on now.
• 34:36
  SPEAKER_02: We've probably already done about 25 interviews.
• 34:38
  SPEAKER_02: Uh we'll meet on Zoom.
• 34:40
  SPEAKER_02: Um, but then I'll ask him, hey, can you download something?
• 34:44
  SPEAKER_02: And that's my term for just get this out of your brain.
• 34:46
  SPEAKER_02: Can you download something about this topic?
• 34:48
  SPEAKER_02: I need this, I need that.
• 34:50
  SPEAKER_02: And um, then I will start, I will write a first draft and send him here's chapter one, and then we go back and forth until we have a draft that we feel pretty good about that then goes to advanced readers for them to give feedback with specific questions and to our editor, and then we go into the editing process.
• 35:10
  SPEAKER_01: Now, this may be kind of a dumb question, but I'm not a stranger to dumb questions.
• 35:15
  SPEAKER_01: So at this point, with all the success that you and Mike have had with these books, have you ever considered doing indie publishing as opposed to traditional publishing?
• 35:24
  SPEAKER_01: Like what at this point, what are the advantages that traditional publishing give you as opposed to just doing it independently?
• 35:30
  SPEAKER_01: I think people may be curious about that.
• 35:32
  SPEAKER_01: At least I am.
• 35:32
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 35:33
  SPEAKER_02: So, first of all, he he's willing to change every book.
• 35:36
  SPEAKER_02: We never know what we're gonna do.
• 35:38
  SPEAKER_00: Really?
• 35:39
  SPEAKER_00: So interesting.
• 35:40
  SPEAKER_02: Oh, yeah.
• 35:40
  SPEAKER_02: So, and also we've self-published so Tall Paper Entrepreneur, he self-published Hemkin Plan was Penguin, but they rejected Profit First.
• 35:50
  SPEAKER_02: This is a story a lot of people don't know.
• 35:52
  SPEAKER_01: What I know because this is I would not want to be that acquisitions editor.
• 35:57
  SPEAKER_01: I should write an article.
• 35:59
  SPEAKER_02: I need to write an article about this, right?
• 36:01
  SPEAKER_02: Because most people don't realize this.
• 36:03
  SPEAKER_02: Oh my goodness, it's his most famous book, it's sold almost a million copies.
• 36:08
  SPEAKER_02: Um, it's ridiculous.
• 36:10
  SPEAKER_01: That was a bad decision on their part.
• 36:12
  SPEAKER_02: I know.
• 36:12
  SPEAKER_02: So, you know, as you know, publishers have read a first refusal.
• 36:15
  SPEAKER_02: So you have to go with them and say, This is the book I want to write next, and they get to say no, thank you, or here's my here's the money I'll give you.
• 36:21
  SPEAKER_02: And they said no, thank you.
• 36:23
  SPEAKER_02: They're exact words where we don't need another, no one needs another accounting book.
• 36:29
  SPEAKER_02: And I know smack my head.
• 36:34
  SPEAKER_02: So he was really disappointed, and then he actually coincidentally had a another agent at the time, a second agent who was very, very notable agent who who sought him out, and she also didn't get it, and she was a big deal agent.
• 36:52
  SPEAKER_02: And she said, I don't think I can do that, I don't think this is the book, and so he was really bummed.
• 36:56
  SPEAKER_02: And I said, Don't be bummed, we know how to self-publish, we know it's next, we know it's important.
• 37:01
  SPEAKER_02: Let's just write it.
• 37:03
  SPEAKER_02: So we published um Profit First as a self-published title initially.
• 37:08
  SPEAKER_01: I did not know that.
• 37:10
  SPEAKER_02: Yes, it's an ad it's a different cover, it's blue and it has a pink piggy bank on the cover, and it sold at just uh you know what ton of those books.
• 37:22
  SPEAKER_02: Then we started working on another book, and while we were working on it, it's actually a book that we didn't follow the formula and it's it didn't do well.
• 37:31
  SPEAKER_02: It's called Surge, and almost no one's read it because we didn't do the book that was next.
• 37:35
  SPEAKER_02: We did the book he wanted to write.
• 37:36
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 37:37
  SPEAKER_02: While we were doing that, we got a he got a call from an editor at Penguin.
• 37:41
  SPEAKER_02: And the editor at Penguin had noticed that the pumpkin plan was the high performer in their backlist, and it was unusual to see a book continue to grow and do better every year instead of the other way around.
• 37:53
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 37:54
  SPEAKER_02: I said, Who's this guy?
• 37:56
  SPEAKER_02: And he went online and he saw we had self-published profit first, and he's the one who said, Wait a minute, what?
• 38:02
  SPEAKER_02: And so they actually came back, Penguin, and said, Oh, they didn't say oops because they wouldn't say that, but it was oops.
• 38:11
  SPEAKER_02: And ever since then, anytime that he's wanted to said, I maybe I'm gonna go somewhere else, it's not like he's threatening, he's just, you know, maybe there's a better solution for us.
• 38:20
  SPEAKER_02: They always they don't let him leave because that was the really bad decision.
• 38:25
  SPEAKER_01: They make it worth his while, you know.
• 38:26
  SPEAKER_01: That's that's what a publisher should do.
• 38:28
  SPEAKER_02: Yes, but we have considered hybrid in the past, and we almost went hybrid on get different.
• 38:34
  SPEAKER_02: Um, but ultimately penguin came through and they didn't want to lose it.
• 38:39
  SPEAKER_02: The reason that he likes his home is because I think the distribution arm is just, I mean, anytime you're going with the big five distribution, trade distribution is great at any any level, but when it's a big five trade distribution, their muscle is just incomparable.
• 38:56
  SPEAKER_01: You can't you just can't compete with it, there's no way to to compete with it.
• 39:00
  SPEAKER_02: No, and so that's a huge factor for him.
• 39:03
  SPEAKER_02: And we like the editorial, we like the way we get to have, yeah, we want our editorial process.
• 39:11
  SPEAKER_02: Um that's important to us.
• 39:13
  SPEAKER_02: So, and then he always figures out he's a genius with the math, so he always figures out exactly how much we need to make it worth our while to stay, you know, all that sort of thing.
• 39:25
  SPEAKER_02: So, and we're very transparent about all these things.
• 39:28
  SPEAKER_02: Our current book is something new, we're just doing a profit share with penguin, cool, which we haven't done before.
• 39:33
  SPEAKER_02: It's kind of nerve-wracking.
• 39:35
  SPEAKER_02: So, we didn't do in advance this time.
• 39:39
  SPEAKER_01: Boy, lots of stuff to dig in there.
• 39:41
  SPEAKER_01: Um I'm super intrigued by the story of somebody turning down profit first.
• 39:45
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, you know, it's like it's like you hear about the person who turned down Harry Potter, where the publishers that turned in Harry Potter, you're like, What were you thinking?
• 39:53
  SPEAKER_01: But you know, sometimes you just don't know.
• 39:55
  SPEAKER_01: As a publisher, you're always taking risks and you can't predict the future.
• 39:58
  SPEAKER_02: And sometimes you're just having a bad day, too.
• 40:01
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, I've been an acquisitions editor and I've got received submissions, and I thought, oh my god, you know, I don't, I don't think this is I don't know, you're having a bad day and you miss it.
• 40:10
  SPEAKER_01: Um that's true.
• 40:12
  SPEAKER_02: It's just people on the other end making those decisions, you know.
• 40:15
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 40:16
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, that's true.
• 40:17
  SPEAKER_01: Well, I'm gonna want to wrap up with this question.
• 40:20
  SPEAKER_01: Um just kind of about ghostwriting, and this is something I'm I'm super curious about.
• 40:26
  SPEAKER_01: So as a ghostwriter myself, sometimes sometimes we we hear about you know, ghostwriters who have credit on books, who don't have credit on books, where they should and and kind of playing that whole credit game, which in some sense doesn't always really mean that much, because the people who are inside of the book process know they know who wrote it and and who did what and all that.
• 40:49
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 40:50
  SPEAKER_01: Um, how do you think about this?
• 40:52
  SPEAKER_01: Like whether when whenever people are are talking with clients or prospective clients about okay, should they get a with credit on the cover?
• 41:00
  SPEAKER_01: Should they not be listed?
• 41:01
  SPEAKER_01: Um, how do you think about that as an experienced ghostwriter, whether that's an important thing or not?
• 41:07
  SPEAKER_02: For me, it wasn't.
• 41:09
  SPEAKER_02: Um, I used to say setting your ego aside is a job requirement for ghostwriters.
• 41:15
  SPEAKER_02: Um and so it never bothered me, but you have to take take into account that I don't usually like the limelight, so I was totally comfortable with it.
• 41:25
  SPEAKER_02: Um, I was so stealth that often editors at publishing houses didn't even know I existed.
• 41:31
  SPEAKER_01: Wow.
• 41:31
  SPEAKER_02: Um and I like that, but I do understand.
• 41:34
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, I also had a challenge.
• 41:36
  SPEAKER_02: How am I gonna market myself?
• 41:37
  SPEAKER_02: Because I can't tell anybody the books I wrote on I wrote at all.
• 41:41
  SPEAKER_02: But actually, I never had a problem.
• 41:43
  SPEAKER_02: I think people respect saying you can get some samples together that you write your own so that people understand.
• 41:49
  SPEAKER_02: But I never told anybody anyone that I wrote for ever.
• 41:53
  SPEAKER_02: And so, and I always had work, so I really think that's a myth that we have to say who we wrote for.
• 41:59
  SPEAKER_02: But if you do want to be able to say that, getting your name on the cover can be important, right?
• 42:05
  SPEAKER_02: Um, but I don't think ghostwriters, I don't know.
• 42:09
  SPEAKER_02: I rather have the cash, you know, I'd rather have the I'd rather have the royalties and the cash.
• 42:16
  SPEAKER_02: And it's honestly the reason that I that I never had a problem with ghostwriting nonfiction, and I actually do have a problem ghostwriting fiction.
• 42:23
  SPEAKER_02: I never did that.
• 42:25
  SPEAKER_02: Um the reason I never had a problem with this, these are not my mess, it's not my message, not my ideas, not my strategies, right, not my program, not my stories.
• 42:35
  SPEAKER_02: So I'm fine with that.
• 42:38
  SPEAKER_02: That's really the author.
• 42:39
  SPEAKER_02: The author is the person who came up with it and has all the stories, etc.
• 42:44
  SPEAKER_02: You're the writer who's bringing it all together, and you I don't know, I don't think it's necessary.
• 42:49
  SPEAKER_02: But I respect the ghostwriter who does want their name on the cover.
• 42:53
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, it's just been interesting as I've gotten more into this world the last two or three years to see how different people approach this question about whether it's important, whether it's not.
• 43:02
  SPEAKER_01: Because there are some ghostwriters whose names are on whose name is on other covers or a lot of them.
• 43:09
  SPEAKER_01: And when you see their name as like a with credit, you kind of know the book is going to be a certain tone or it's a certain genre or whatever it is.
• 43:17
  SPEAKER_01: So, in a sense, it's almost like a like a brand, you know, kind of.
• 43:21
  SPEAKER_01: So it's fascinating, but I think ultimately it's interesting as well because we have a lot of options as ghostwriters and as people who are doing client work and helping other people get their messages out there.
• 43:31
  SPEAKER_01: There's all kinds of different ways to approach this.
• 43:34
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, and I I, you know, the reason I could talk about Mike is because we have this partnership and he's agreed to it, but I think it's changed a lot since when I started.
• 43:42
  SPEAKER_02: When I started it, you really had nobody wanted to know any, you know, no, no, no.
• 43:47
  SPEAKER_02: Can't say it's really changed.
• 43:48
  SPEAKER_02: I've seen you talking about books that you're working on.
• 43:51
  SPEAKER_02: That would have been unthinkable for me.
• 43:53
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 43:53
  SPEAKER_02: At this point, right, you know, and so just having a conversation with the author, I think is is helpful too.
• 44:00
  SPEAKER_02: also ghostwriters now have their own fans and their own community and their own they're educating people and teaching classes and so it can help an author to get access to that network.
• 44:11
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah totally totally but yeah I will say I just wanted my own name on my own book.
• 44:18
  SPEAKER_02: So I didn't it didn't bother me because I just kept telling myself this isn't my dream it's theirs and right I want I don't want to muddy the waters with my own dream.
• 44:32
  SPEAKER_01: Actually I'm I lied a second ago.
• 44:34
  SPEAKER_01: I do want to ask you one more question before we wrap this up.
• 44:37
  SPEAKER_01: What are some things that that you feel like someone can learn from doing client work that then apply to their own writing here's why I'm asking this because I write my own stuff I also do client work and I feel like doing my own stuff I learned things through experimentation through my own struggles sometimes with whether it's a writer's block or feeling frustrated or you want to give up I can then help my clients with those things because I'm an author myself.
• 45:04
  SPEAKER_01: Likewise you learn lots of cool business stuff from doing client work that you can apply to your own thing.
• 45:09
  SPEAKER_02: Have you found that to be true yourself that both of those things inform the other side for sure and because I write exclusively for prescriptive nonfiction let me tell you I mean I have learned a lot and I also learned that when I got a book assignment that I probably needed to get it.
• 45:30
  SPEAKER_02: I I learned and not to be too woo woo on you.
• 45:33
  SPEAKER_02: But it's just it I always end up reading working on a project whether it's writing or editing that I need to hear in that moment.
• 45:41
  SPEAKER_02: I need to learn from that person.
• 45:43
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah and I that's actually the huge bonus of ghostwriting.
• 45:47
  SPEAKER_02: It's the best because you're getting I mean forget an advanced reader crazy or a galley you're getting in on these these concepts and ideas that could be game changing for you as well.
• 45:58
  SPEAKER_02: So it's like getting this free mentorship from someone about business or relationships or whatever or health or wellness.
• 46:07
  SPEAKER_02: And I've that's the best part.
• 46:09
  SPEAKER_01: Every book is like is like a free graduate school degree in that topic.
• 46:14
  SPEAKER_02: You know in a sense I mean plus you're getting it's like getting paid to go to school kind of oh yes and you get you also get end up with a deep relationship usually with that person.
• 46:24
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah um that is really valuable as you're built you know if you decide later that you are going to do your own book having those relationships is significant.
• 46:32
  SPEAKER_01: Totally wow this has been great conversation AJ I've really enjoyed this and I love learning from you and I'm so glad that you have codified your codified sounds like such a fancy term.
• 46:43
  SPEAKER_01: I used to be a college teacher so I don't know why I'm once in a while like that professor language comes out I guess.
• 46:50
  SPEAKER_01: But uh but you have you've kind of codified your system into a book and I just so appreciate this.
• 46:54
  SPEAKER_01: I've learned a lot from it and I know that our readers will as well so thanks for your time in doing this.
• 46:59
  SPEAKER_01: I appreciate all the goodness that you're adding to the world with your client work with your um partnership with Mike but also with what you're doing to serve author.
• 47:09
  SPEAKER_01: So lots of good things there.
• 47:10
  SPEAKER_01: So thank you again.
• 47:12
  SPEAKER_02: Thank you for having me.
• 47:13
  SPEAKER_01: Well that was an absolutely thrilling conversation for me to be able to have with AJ and I hope that you enjoyed it as well and this is one of those episodes where I think you really have to listen to it at least a couple of times because she was just dropping wisdom and knowledge nuggets left and right.
• 47:28
  SPEAKER_01: Actually I've never used that phrase knowledge nuggets.
• 47:31
  SPEAKER_01: It's kind of a weird phrase but that's what came to mind just now so I'm going with that.
• 47:34
  SPEAKER_01: Maybe it's because I had Chick fil A last night and I had some of their nuggets which are really good by the way so back to the topic at hand this was a really really good conversation and not only do I want to encourage you to listen to this a second time if you haven't already I want to encourage you absolutely to grab her book called Write a Must Read.
• 47:52
  SPEAKER_01: Not only is this just a really fun and engaging book to read it's really really helpful because if you don't have that reader first mindset as a writer your book is not going to be nearly as effective as it could be.
• 48:03
  SPEAKER_01: So I want to encourage you to absolutely grab her book and also check out her website which of course is ajharper.com.
• 48:10
  SPEAKER_01: And of course many thanks to AJ for taking the time to be a guest on this episode.
• 48:14
  SPEAKER_01: Hey before I wrap up I want to let you know that today's episode is brought to you by the new book The Faith of Elvis a story only a brother can tell I wrote this book with Billy Stanley who is Elvis Presley's stepbrother to share the untold story of Elvis's deep personal faith.
• 48:31
  SPEAKER_01: You'll hear never before published stories about Elvis' generosity, how he relied on his faith in tough times, and what it was like for Billy to grow up with Elvis as an older brother.
• 48:41
  SPEAKER_01: It was honestly a huge privilege for me to be involved in this project and the early reader feedback has been that it's a very quick read that leaves you feeling super inspired.
• 48:50
  SPEAKER_01: So if you love Elvis, if you love music if you love great storytelling or if you just want to deepen your personal faith which is a pretty good goal in itself, I promise that you're going to love The Faith of Elvis.
• 49:00
  SPEAKER_01: The book comes out on October the 4th and you can pre order the book at all the major retailers and even download a free chapter via the link in the show notes.
• 49:10
  SPEAKER_01: Thanks so much for listening and I'll see you in the next episode.