Latest / PlanetGeo: The Geology Podcast / Visualizing the Deep Earth - CEO and Founder Christie Capper

Transcript

Visualizing the Deep Earth - CEO and Founder Christie Capper · PlanetGeo: The Geology Podcast

• 0:02
  SPEAKER_00: Welcome to Planet Geo, the podcast where we talk about our amazing planet, how it works, and why it matters to you.
• 0:14
  SPEAKER_00: Hey folks, today we are excited to bring you another interview that's part of my Geoscience Entrepreneurship class where we're going around interviewing really interesting entrepreneurs and people involved in startups or in the sort of startup industry, which, as we've talked about before, is really focused on geology at the moment, which is exciting to see.
• 0:32
  SPEAKER_00: Today we have an excellent conversation with Christy Kapper.
• 0:35
  SPEAKER_00: Christy is the founder and CEO of Deep Earth.
• 0:38
  SPEAKER_00: Really a company trying to visualize the subservice, which we can get on board with as geoscientists.
• 0:44
  SPEAKER_00: So happy to bring you this conversation with Christy.
• 0:46
  SPEAKER_00: It's a really insightful one.
• 0:48
  SPEAKER_00: Looking forward to hearing what you have to say about it.
• 0:50
  SPEAKER_00: Please send us an email.
• 0:51
  SPEAKER_00: There's a contact us link on our website, Planetgeocast.com.
• 0:54
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• 0:55
  SPEAKER_00: We're at Planet Geocast and download our mobile app, Camp Geo Mobile app.
• 0:59
  SPEAKER_00: First link in your show notes.
• 1:00
  SPEAKER_00: There you can continue to learn about all things geoscience.
• 1:03
  SPEAKER_00: And stay tuned to that space because we've got some exciting stuff coming your way later this year.
• 1:08
  SPEAKER_00: Alright, Christy Capper.
• 1:09
  SPEAKER_00: Let's get to it.
• 1:11
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, Christy Capper.
• 1:12
  SPEAKER_00: Welcome to Planet Geo.
• 1:14
  SPEAKER_00: Good to good to see you in this forum.
• 1:17
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, nice to see you too.
• 1:20
  SPEAKER_00: Good to be talking to you.
• 1:21
  SPEAKER_00: I'm excited about this conversation we're gonna have because a lot of the questions we've talked a lot offline in relation a lot to well, your company and your past projects, I think before you started this company that you're you're working on right now.
• 1:34
  SPEAKER_00: But I don't know a lot of the a lot of the answers to the questions we're topics we're gonna cover here.
• 1:39
  SPEAKER_00: So I'm interested to learn from from you at this deeper level as well.
• 1:42
  SPEAKER_00: We always kind of start out with questions about how you got into the field you're in, like what was your inspiration point?
• 1:47
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm curious what for you, how did you get into entrepreneurship, the kind of deep tech space that you're in right now and working in?
• 1:54
  SPEAKER_00: What was the what was the origin story?
• 1:56
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, um I think I've explained this to you at a high level, but basically my dad is a toy maker.
• 2:01
  SPEAKER_02: So as kids, we were constantly playing with toys, testing products, like running focus groups.
• 2:08
  SPEAKER_02: We were part of the commercials when someone wasn't available.
• 2:11
  SPEAKER_02: I would get pulled out from school.
• 2:13
  SPEAKER_02: I need to go in and be um doing that.
• 2:15
  SPEAKER_02: We would go to Toy Fair every year.
• 2:17
  SPEAKER_02: We were going to toy stores, doing toy checks, watching commercials Saturday morning, marking like what other commercials we would see on the Saturday morning cartoons.
• 2:26
  SPEAKER_00: So he's putting you to work.
• 2:27
  SPEAKER_00: Well, it was Saturday morning cartoons wasn't just fun.
• 2:30
  SPEAKER_00: It was putting it work for your kids.
• 2:32
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, definitely.
• 2:33
  SPEAKER_02: That's awesome.
• 2:34
  SPEAKER_02: Um, yeah, that was a fun like entry point into product.
• 2:40
  SPEAKER_02: And then that got me into learning about how things work, and I became more fascinated with the engineering side of things because they were constantly inventing new technology.
• 2:50
  SPEAKER_02: So they had like a toothbrush that put music through your teeth into your ears and all that sorts of things.
• 2:56
  SPEAKER_02: And he worked with a brilliant engineer, so um yeah, that got me into engineering.
• 3:01
  SPEAKER_00: So, did you ever try pro uh products that were uh let's say unsafe, or do you have any stories of things that you were forced to experiment with that were maybe not as good to experiment with?
• 3:11
  SPEAKER_02: That's a good question.
• 3:13
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, we constantly had like safety, obviously in the toy industry is a huge um, huge requirement.
• 3:21
  SPEAKER_02: They were constantly like 3D printing prototypes and stuff, so we always had the molds and things to check.
• 3:27
  SPEAKER_02: But this wasn't necessarily not safe, but there were a lot of products that I would say didn't necessarily make it to market, but were like, so you know, my last name's Capper, and I don't know, one my dad designed a hat that when you turned it sideways, it played rap music.
• 3:44
  SPEAKER_02: I think this was like when we were in high school, and um that is very 90s.
• 3:49
  SPEAKER_00: Oh wow, that is very nice.
• 3:50
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, that's amazing.
• 3:52
  SPEAKER_02: So much so.
• 3:53
  SPEAKER_02: Um, yeah, and that was called the capper.
• 3:55
  SPEAKER_02: So that was kind of one that when I would bring my friends home from high school, he would like show them and you're just like, oh come on, dad.
• 4:01
  SPEAKER_00: What is it?
• 4:02
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, don't bring out the capper again.
• 4:04
  SPEAKER_00: That's great.
• 4:05
  SPEAKER_00: Oh man, that's very okay.
• 4:06
  SPEAKER_00: So you're around this like experimentation, really just kind of optimizing process for your whole life, basically.
• 4:15
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and and that led you into the engineering side a little bit?
• 4:18
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, so that led me into like learning learning more how things work.
• 4:22
  SPEAKER_02: And I think for me, that was I was fascinated both from the technical side of things and then also on the business side.
• 4:30
  SPEAKER_02: And we were shadowing meetings and such with my dad and going to factories from a super young age.
• 4:35
  SPEAKER_02: It was almost like the other way around that once I finally started working at companies, I felt out of place because I felt like there was just you were like working on one part of the problem.
• 4:46
  SPEAKER_02: And I was always really curious how like all these different things fit together.
• 4:50
  SPEAKER_02: So I'm, you know, I started out at SpaceX doing like mechanical design for the flight computers, and then I was like, okay, but what about the software part of it?
• 5:00
  SPEAKER_02: How do they do these?
• 5:00
  SPEAKER_02: I was designing this star tracker that looks at stars and tries to orient itself from a spaceship.
• 5:05
  SPEAKER_02: But I was like, but how do they, I don't know, how do they look at this from a computer vision standpoint?
• 5:11
  SPEAKER_02: What do those algorithms look like?
• 5:12
  SPEAKER_02: What are the electrical engineers doing?
• 5:15
  SPEAKER_00: And so you just wanted like a you wanted a higher level view than your job was giving you, uh, even when we're working for a big I guess SpaceX was probably pretty big firm at that point when you were working.
• 5:25
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, it was a few thousand people then.
• 5:27
  SPEAKER_02: This was in 2017, I think.
• 5:30
  SPEAKER_02: Um so smaller than it was now.
• 5:32
  SPEAKER_02: But yeah, I don't know if it's like I guess higher level is one way of saying it, but I also I was just thinking about it more in terms of like all the connecting pieces.
• 5:40
  SPEAKER_00: The holistic view of the product that you're trying to understand.
• 5:43
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 5:43
  SPEAKER_00: Interesting.
• 5:44
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 5:45
  SPEAKER_00: That kind of leads you to not particularly enjoying this sort of corporate work environment, maybe where the traditional work environment, sort of ladder climbing, do this job for a little while.
• 5:54
  SPEAKER_00: You you kind of wanted to accelerate that process a little bit and uh have a little bit more ownership across across the entire breadth of what's going on at a at a cur at a company.
• 6:04
  SPEAKER_00: Is that a fair description or not not really?
• 6:07
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I think that early in my career, it was like not so much seeking ownership, but more curiosity driven and just not liking that you just kind of blindly pass something off.
• 6:17
  SPEAKER_02: And I think I found that I was not going to be the best person in any one of those disciplines because I was around people.
• 6:24
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, it was an excellent SpaceX was an excellent place to learn from an engineering standpoint.
• 6:29
  SPEAKER_02: Don't get me wrong, but also you're around people that had been doing, like in each of those disciplines, they'd been doing that thing for like they'd been spending 10, 15 years doing mechanical design on something.
• 6:39
  SPEAKER_02: And so I felt like, okay, but how do these pieces work together?
• 6:44
  SPEAKER_02: Um, knowing that there's gonna be incredible experts to learn from across all of those um sort of how do these, yeah, how do these pieces fit?
• 6:52
  SPEAKER_00: So we initially met because you you actually reached out, I think, from the podcast.
• 6:57
  SPEAKER_00: You'd listen to us the the podcast, something like that.
• 6:59
  SPEAKER_00: I'm trying to remember because this was now going out wow, years ago.
• 7:02
  SPEAKER_00: Was it three years ago already?
• 7:04
  SPEAKER_00: Or is it two years?
• 7:05
  SPEAKER_02: Like it was three years ago.
• 7:07
  SPEAKER_00: That's a surprising long time.
• 7:08
  SPEAKER_00: But when you were, so you were kind of, and I want you to describe what you're what you were doing at that time, but you were I couldn't really understand it.
• 7:16
  SPEAKER_00: I couldn't explain it now.
• 7:17
  SPEAKER_00: You were kind of exploring, I don't know, mining sector, deep tech, like tough material science, geoscience problems in some capacity.
• 7:27
  SPEAKER_00: What can you can you go backwards in time from there?
• 7:30
  SPEAKER_00: Like where did you do your just the simple stuff?
• 7:32
  SPEAKER_00: Like what did your undergrad degree?
• 7:34
  SPEAKER_00: What were your first jobs like?
• 7:35
  SPEAKER_00: Where did you go from high school and your dad producing the Capper to like, you know, uh us meeting and you working on exploring the mining space?
• 7:45
  SPEAKER_02: Um not the most linear path, I would say.
• 7:48
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but that's a common thread amongst entrepreneurial types.
• 7:52
  SPEAKER_00: So that's yeah, that's good.
• 7:54
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I feel like sometimes they're like, it's a little, it's a little fragmented, but um yeah, so went from doing product development stuff as uh as a kid um through to studying uh economics and mechanical engineering with an emphasis on robotics.
• 8:13
  SPEAKER_02: So uh was looking at software and uh control systems as well.
• 8:16
  SPEAKER_02: That was a big curiosity.
• 8:18
  SPEAKER_00: And where were you at?
• 8:19
  SPEAKER_00: When school?
• 8:19
  SPEAKER_00: I've I don't remember.
• 8:20
  SPEAKER_02: Um I went to Claremont and Columbia.
• 8:23
  SPEAKER_02: So there was like a program that both schools had, basically.
• 8:26
  SPEAKER_02: So yeah, going back to Claremont being like back to our conversation about California, whether Claremont was like a dream, you know, in the sun, and then Colombia was a bit more of a reality for New York.
• 8:37
  SPEAKER_02: But I also loved I was excited to live in New York as a city and yeah, be around people that were working on problems that were a bit broader in scope, I think, than some of like the California tech bubble can be.
• 8:48
  SPEAKER_02: And you're interfacing with people that have not no idea about the tech industry, which is also a bit refreshing.
• 8:53
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 8:53
  SPEAKER_02: And then uh went on to SpaceX.
• 8:57
  SPEAKER_02: Um I did a few internships uh in between there.
• 9:00
  SPEAKER_02: I started did an internship at the UN actually in Rome on on hydropower when I was 20.
• 9:06
  SPEAKER_02: I didn't have the chance with my program because it was all very tight uh to study abroad.
• 9:09
  SPEAKER_02: So that was a really good exposure to like living abroad and super fun.
• 9:13
  SPEAKER_02: I also worked um uh with my dad on a 3D printer and a few other toys, which was uh which was really cool.
• 9:20
  SPEAKER_02: And then did an internship at Boeing, which was very interesting to see the difference between that versus a fast-paced environment like SpaceX.
• 9:27
  SPEAKER_02: And then I was back in California and after being in New York and Rome for a little bit, I was really curious about moving somewhere outside of California for what I thought would just be a few years and get exposure to a lot of different ideas, knowing that I wanted to go back to those earlier stages of development.
• 9:45
  SPEAKER_02: And I actually sort of stumbled into a job in VC, which being someone from California, venture capital, that's an investment role.
• 9:54
  SPEAKER_02: Um, but it was with early, really early stage companies that you could basically look at all of their ideas.
• 9:59
  SPEAKER_02: And so I was going, and it was in Europe, and so I thought, great, this was just spending a few years looking at new companies, getting more global exposure, learning about all sorts of ideas across energy, aerospace, et cetera, where my engineering mind was supposed to help evaluate those ideas and my background in business was also supposed to be looking at that viability.
• 10:20
  SPEAKER_02: And um, yeah, so I did that job briefly, also as a segue into what earlier companies I could join, ended up joining a fusion energy startup that was one of their companies that they'd invested in.
• 10:34
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, so that was gonna be my question.
• 10:35
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, that was the touch point.
• 10:36
  SPEAKER_00: So, what does that look like?
• 10:38
  SPEAKER_00: I guess it may be a question people would have would be is there conflict of interest there when you're kind of saying, I'm working for a funding, a funder, uh, an investor, and then all of a sudden I'm gonna go leave that and work for a company that we have invested in.
• 10:51
  SPEAKER_00: Is there a conflict of interest or is that a difficult conversation to have, or is it very normal for people to do that?
• 10:56
  SPEAKER_02: No, I mean it was super normal.
• 10:58
  SPEAKER_02: I think like I had a I mean, I had a very open dialogue with my with the investors where I also felt like it was really good exposure, but also too soon for me.
• 11:07
  SPEAKER_02: I was so like itching to want to work on things hands-on.
• 11:10
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and so that was all all good.
• 11:13
  SPEAKER_02: And then in terms of the fact that they'd invested in that company, I mean, then I was effectively employed by the startup.
• 11:19
  SPEAKER_02: So I had a slightly different lens than the other people that had just joined because I had sort of seen the company from its earlier stages, even before I was there.
• 11:27
  SPEAKER_02: But yeah, it's it's a pretty normal.
• 11:30
  SPEAKER_00: All right, cool.
• 11:31
  SPEAKER_00: Thanks for interesting.
• 11:31
  SPEAKER_00: All right, so then fusion.
• 11:33
  SPEAKER_00: So you've you've covered a lot of ground already.
• 11:36
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, and then what led you to Primateria?
• 11:39
  SPEAKER_00: Was that the next step?
• 11:41
  SPEAKER_00: Was Prima Materia?
• 11:42
  SPEAKER_02: Um, actually, in between that, um, so when I was at the fusion energy company, I started being more curious about like all of the different energy sources that we might pull from.
• 11:53
  SPEAKER_02: And that got me interested in geothermal and other renewables and such.
• 11:58
  SPEAKER_02: But I also then at the time, that was when like the carbon credit world was increasing um quite quickly.
• 12:05
  SPEAKER_02: And fusion, I was there for a few years, and it was a really good way to learn about a product that was like super early in its RD stages, way more so than a place like SpaceX.
• 12:14
  SPEAKER_02: But then someone that I had met when I was doing the investor role had started this company where they were basically looking for someone to work on evaluating all of the RD potential to uh look at carbon credit removal projects across like how do you measure soils, forests, et cetera.
• 12:37
  SPEAKER_02: And so I thought that was an interesting role in the sense that that product was much more advanced commercially.
• 12:43
  SPEAKER_02: They've had paying customers and everything like that.
• 12:45
  SPEAKER_02: And so um actually quite quite a few.
• 12:48
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and that company was growing quite quickly.
• 12:50
  SPEAKER_02: And so I thought it was a good use case of like where does RD not market ready technology, but much closer to market ready technology uh with a product where what does that intersection look like in the climate space?
• 13:04
  SPEAKER_02: So I worked on that company, but with that, I was looking at soil and peatlands and carbon content there and how we can measure that at scale.
• 13:12
  SPEAKER_02: And so that got me in that along with my interest in geothermal, got me interested in okay, how do we learn more about what's underground?
• 13:17
  SPEAKER_02: And I was brainstorming with a previous colleague who you also met uh about that topic.
• 13:22
  SPEAKER_02: And we're like, well, how's it done in more established industries, like the mining industry?
• 13:26
  SPEAKER_02: And we started to learn about that, and then the prima materia group was curious and learning more.
• 13:31
  SPEAKER_02: So yeah, so that's when I went um to to work on that.
• 13:35
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 13:36
  SPEAKER_00: Uh okay, so that I have a bunch of questions about that, but let's maybe focus one one if you're willing.
• 13:44
  SPEAKER_00: What is the were these all paid positions or were you getting equity in these companies as you kind of kind of jumped around?
• 13:51
  SPEAKER_00: Like how did that work for you?
• 13:52
  SPEAKER_00: And how did you think about the trade-offs between working for uh you know a probably what would be a more high-paying job at an established place versus like a lower paying, riskier job at a startup?
• 14:04
  SPEAKER_00: How did you think about that?
• 14:06
  SPEAKER_00: Or were you just kind of not really worried about that aspect personally?
• 14:09
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, no, it's interesting.
• 14:10
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, so so going back to like the toy part and my dad, as an example, I mean, I like I still have so much awe for for what he did.
• 14:19
  SPEAKER_02: He he didn't take a salary at all.
• 14:20
  SPEAKER_02: He only did as well as his products did, and he did not do venture-backed companies, so which is like also unheard of these days.
• 14:27
  SPEAKER_02: So it was just pure royalties based on the product.
• 14:30
  SPEAKER_02: Um I have not been as uh like I mean, it's different, I guess, because the lot of the technologies that we've been working at with are not like ready to go out into market immediately, but that obviously set a value in me at an early stage that was like you should value how good the thing you're working on is and what value that creates, more than pocketing as much money as you can for that for that given amount of time.
• 14:57
  SPEAKER_02: So I've tried to, where possible, optimize for having some level of skin in the game there.
• 15:06
  SPEAKER_02: It's of course different when it's startups where you've got, you know, that's somebody else that's fully executing it versus my my dad had more like full control.
• 15:15
  SPEAKER_02: So where you can take more um stake.
• 15:18
  SPEAKER_02: Um I'm actually getting paid less now in my current role than I have.
• 15:22
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, I've I've decided what I get like less now than than all before, but it's all for the trade-off of more uh stake if if it goes well.
• 15:29
  SPEAKER_00: If it goes well, yeah, yeah, absolutely.
• 15:31
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, okay.
• 15:31
  SPEAKER_00: All right, interesting.
• 15:32
  SPEAKER_00: No, I think yeah, that's interesting that it it was kind of embedded in you at an early stage that that sort of risk reward trade-off and um the sort of eat what you kill mentality or or the uh you know own what you you gotta make good stuff in order for you to get paid for it.
• 15:46
  SPEAKER_00: So I like that.
• 15:47
  SPEAKER_00: So okay, then uh okay, so so now you're you've started a company.
• 15:52
  SPEAKER_00: What was the origin story of Debirth?
• 15:55
  SPEAKER_00: And I would love to hear a little bit about the the the fundraising side or the origin like how did you think about it?
• 16:02
  SPEAKER_00: How do you think about the product?
• 16:04
  SPEAKER_00: What what were the first conversations like with uh presumably Danielle and a couple other people?
• 16:10
  SPEAKER_00: What was that?
• 16:11
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 16:12
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 16:13
  SPEAKER_02: Um I mean, so I did this research in the mining sector.
• 16:16
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and I, as I was um, I guess after after that was done, I I just kept sticking with me this problem that seemed to be relatively universal.
• 16:28
  SPEAKER_00: Quick question on that, Christy.
• 16:29
  SPEAKER_00: What was I I guess it would be useful also to know what uh what makes you say this is not a good idea.
• 16:35
  SPEAKER_00: So what was like a turnoff from the mining sector?
• 16:38
  SPEAKER_00: Was there one or was there a couple?
• 16:40
  SPEAKER_00: What what made you think, oh, this isn't as interesting as I thought it was initially?
• 16:44
  SPEAKER_00: Or I shouldn't go further down that path.
• 16:45
  SPEAKER_00: Like you're at a fork in the road or something.
• 16:47
  SPEAKER_00: I'm gonna go right, not left.
• 16:49
  SPEAKER_00: Why not left?
• 16:50
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, it was definitely interesting.
• 16:53
  SPEAKER_02: Like like in the sense of I was I was on um the side of a mountain with mineral exploration geologists pointing out like drill holes that they were doing.
• 17:02
  SPEAKER_00: And I mean the You guys were going all over the place.
• 17:05
  SPEAKER_00: It was I was quite jealous.
• 17:06
  SPEAKER_00: You were seeing some very cool rocks during this time.
• 17:09
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, yeah, I mean, we were like super north in Sweden, and then in South Africa, and then like in all over.
• 17:18
  SPEAKER_02: So, so it was really interesting.
• 17:21
  SPEAKER_02: I think the the thing that got me a bit hung up, and this is maybe a bit of a hot take because right now the mining sector is getting loads of attention, as as it should.
• 17:30
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, it's it's an incredibly important problem.
• 17:32
  SPEAKER_00: And I think that became you guys saw that on the horizon too.
• 17:35
  SPEAKER_00: I guess that was kind of your you saw it was going to be coming increasingly important, right, in the future as well.
• 17:40
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, but also, I mean, I felt like we were behind then, and this was yeah, a couple of years ago, but I'm like, I don't know where everybody's been now.
• 17:47
  SPEAKER_02: All like in the last six months, it feels like it's just really kicked up, but I guess that's um yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 17:53
  SPEAKER_00: Well, we'll see how it evolves.
• 17:55
  SPEAKER_00: Boom and bust a boom and bust industry is the extractive industries are massively boom and bust.
• 18:00
  SPEAKER_02: So exactly.
• 18:01
  SPEAKER_02: I think that's the thing that caught me was was as we were looking at it, we didn't look at it just from the last few years.
• 18:08
  SPEAKER_02: We looked at it from like what do the last 150 years look like, and really going and doing case studies across some mines, uh, some of the like across different commodities and watching how they evolved over time and how the in a way the industry is still very short-sighted, in the sense that a lot of the exploration work is and a lot of these junior explorers are funded, like they're public companies, so they're highly dependent on the commodity price.
• 18:40
  SPEAKER_02: And as the commodity prices fluctuate, their projects fluctuate in terms of how fast they can go.
• 18:46
  SPEAKER_02: And you get that after a while, the timeline to development for a lot of these projects can be, on average, like over a decade plus.
• 18:56
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and so that can be challenging from the standpoint of if you're really, I mean, and on the exploration budgets also are highly volatile.
• 19:03
  SPEAKER_02: Like I said, not over the course of right now, everyone's like mineral exploration, mineral exploration.
• 19:07
  SPEAKER_02: And that's like in the last couple of years, but you look over like a 20, 30 year timescale, and it's a much different story.
• 19:13
  SPEAKER_02: And we don't always control the metal prices, and other countries that might have control over that specific resource can definitely flood the market.
• 19:21
  SPEAKER_02: Prices go down, projects get paused, project funding gets paused, they can go up and buy the mine for a cheap price.
• 19:28
  SPEAKER_02: And so it's something that I think is very important.
• 19:31
  SPEAKER_02: And I think as a society, like if we are thinking about mining and ways to do it, what's really important to me also is ways to do it more from like a sustainable lens.
• 19:39
  SPEAKER_02: There's a lot to be done about reusing existing materials, and there's also a lot to be done on the exploration side, but we need to be thinking holistically about the financing that's available there because it's not, it's not a venture capital style problem in a lot of cases, in terms of like how much you need to actually fund that mine development.
• 19:57
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, because venture capital doesn't have enough money or because the time frames are too are dis or misaligned?
• 20:03
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, sort of both.
• 20:04
  SPEAKER_02: Like to get to get a really big deposit up and running, it's costs like billions of dollars in in a lot of cases.
• 20:11
  SPEAKER_02: And so you see some exploration companies going towards the actual developer route, but also the time scales are super, super long.
• 20:18
  SPEAKER_02: And so, unless you're willing to really like fund the whole project, there's a lot that ends up being out of your hands in terms of like the asset value creation.
• 20:25
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 20:26
  SPEAKER_00: Cool.
• 20:26
  SPEAKER_00: All right.
• 20:27
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, excellent.
• 20:28
  SPEAKER_00: So that those were things that kind of made you think, okay, not not going into that sector right now, maybe, or or or tur shift your focus to the shallow, more shallow subsurface or just generally.
• 20:38
  SPEAKER_00: Um, exactly.
• 20:40
  SPEAKER_02: Ironically, though, the name deep earth.
• 20:42
  SPEAKER_02: But like, is there is there areas where we could help that industry, but not be from a business standpoint entirely dependent on them?
• 20:52
  SPEAKER_02: Of course, now I think a lot of investors, if we just like package the company and sold it as like a mineral exploration company, there's I mean, the money being poured into that at the moment is like crazy high, but it wouldn't be um yeah.
• 21:05
  SPEAKER_02: So that maybe would be smart on the fundraising front, but not so authentic to what I believe.
• 21:10
  SPEAKER_02: So yeah, I mean, we're thinking basically like, okay, this is interesting.
• 21:13
  SPEAKER_02: There's a lot of work to be done here.
• 21:15
  SPEAKER_02: Um, but a lot of the core capabilities that this industry needs when it comes to digitizing old records, old exploration reports, old pictures of maps, that's actually like needed from a lot of other industries as well that deal with subsurface information to pull from data that's been taken before.
• 21:36
  SPEAKER_02: And a lot of the similar sensor technology had a lot of overlaps with the types of work that I done in the soil, in this, in the soil world.
• 21:43
  SPEAKER_02: And so starting to look at like, okay, from a capabilities perspective, this seems quite important to other sectors.
• 21:51
  SPEAKER_02: If you start to look at water and how we map like aquifers for given areas and the fact that that's also relying on geophysical data and then Shallow geothermal alone for projects that happen at a much higher frequency.
• 22:04
  SPEAKER_02: And then you go to even shallower at the utilities from a utilities perspective or construction, what does that look like?
• 22:11
  SPEAKER_02: And that's where feeling like, okay, this is there is potentially a business opportunity that can go at a much faster timescale in the sense that you can actually get add value quickly and see that value with quick feedback cycles, not like, I mean, mining, you can definitely see some value in the exploration process, but the feedback cycles take a bit longer.
• 22:31
  SPEAKER_02: So it's like, okay, what are problems that we can work on and what are the feedback cycles for there?
• 22:36
  SPEAKER_02: And how could we prioritize that with the goal of ultimately having this subsurface mapping capability?
• 22:42
  SPEAKER_00: So how can I ask you to think like a quick question on that?
• 22:44
  SPEAKER_00: I because we just had somebody come in.
• 22:46
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, a little bit of an intro to this question, but we just had somebody an alumni come in and talk to our class or entrepreneurship class.
• 22:53
  SPEAKER_00: He did a really nice job, or something I I I liked where he separated out on uh sort of an entrepreneurial life cycle scale, he separated out the inspiration from the idea as two different events, and the idea being much more developed and well thought out.
• 23:07
  SPEAKER_00: The other thing is I think there's a misperception that in order to start a company, you have to have a really well-articulated idea and you have to have this like five-year plan that's fully crystallized.
• 23:17
  SPEAKER_00: I get the sense that that's definitely not the case.
• 23:20
  SPEAKER_00: Could you tell us what was the could you describe the inspiration story and then also the idea story, maybe from like, hey, there's something here to hey, there's a company that we're gonna start.
• 23:30
  SPEAKER_00: What does that look like?
• 23:31
  SPEAKER_00: Because to me, it feels very much like research, our research life, where you kind of get some data, you think, oh, there's something over there, but it's in the fog.
• 23:40
  SPEAKER_00: I don't know exactly what it is.
• 23:41
  SPEAKER_00: I gotta, you're kind of walking through the forest in the fog, and you're like, gotta go down a couple paths and and sort of nose your way along a little bit before you find, oh wait, the fog clears and boom, that's the path we gotta go on.
• 23:53
  SPEAKER_00: So could you describe that from the deep earth perspective a little bit, that that process?
• 23:59
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 23:59
  SPEAKER_02: So I mean it started out as this like sort of foggy, okay, why doesn't uh Google Maps for underground exist?
• 24:06
  SPEAKER_02: Like that was sort of the the question that was sticking with me as I was looking at sort of shadowing geo geological processes um across all of these different industries.
• 24:15
  SPEAKER_00: You like going to deposits and you said they're describing how they're drilling down in and extracting rock, and you're like, how could you not know like what's down a hundred meters or something like that?
• 24:23
  SPEAKER_00: Like is that simple?
• 24:24
  SPEAKER_00: I don't know.
• 24:25
  SPEAKER_02: In in in Colorado, I was at one place and they kept hitting caves.
• 24:28
  SPEAKER_02: Like they kept as they're drilling down, it was a big danger because previously, like in in gold rush times, people had already dug there before, which is amazing that they made it that far down.
• 24:38
  SPEAKER_02: But then if you if you drill and you hit a cave, you you you might hurt some of the personnel that are drilling, obviously.
• 24:44
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, right, right, right.
• 24:45
  SPEAKER_00: Not good for anybody.
• 24:47
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, exactly.
• 24:48
  SPEAKER_02: And so so I think this kind of um thing of w realizing, okay, there's no way, or on a totally different level.
• 24:55
  SPEAKER_02: Um, I don't know, someone hitting a gas line when they're digging on the streets, and there's no way to easily mark that.
• 25:03
  SPEAKER_02: Like there was no communication tool out there to keep track of that data over time.
• 25:08
  SPEAKER_02: Like there's people had these GIS tools that they could use, but then that requires you to like want to go back, mark it, uh, you know, but put it somewhere and just out of for what incentive versus creating some central place that you could start to that could serve as a uh record of uh basically like data and activity for for underground information, um, but also that has all of those like basic uh baseline data there.
• 25:36
  SPEAKER_02: And there's loads of data sets out there that you can go to from like the USGS level, also state geological surveys.
• 25:42
  SPEAKER_02: And then we started to uncover these fourhole logs and anytime, but a lot of exploration activity exists in public in the public domain, but in a way that's not so accessible.
• 25:51
  SPEAKER_02: And so we're like, is there a way to surface all of that data into a spatially represented map with 3D types of visuals that have that can assist in things that are inherent to subsurface information like depth and have that in one place?
• 26:06
  SPEAKER_02: Now, this is all still in the like fuzzy inspiration stage.
• 26:10
  SPEAKER_02: But even, I mean, there was that part of it.
• 26:12
  SPEAKER_02: And then there was also just the practicality of hiking and being like, how come I can't see, I don't know, scrolling through time, how this formation came to be.
• 26:21
  SPEAKER_02: And what if I was, what if you could create something where a little kid hiking could go take a picture of a rock on a thing and then it would show them where that came from, and then you could start to collect data even that way someday.
• 26:31
  SPEAKER_02: Like, you know, where there's some way that helps us understand where our foundations came from.
• 26:36
  SPEAKER_02: Because I mean, yeah, this sounds cheesy, but so much of SpaceX work was like, oh, let's go to Mars.
• 26:41
  SPEAKER_02: And I feel like if you arrived here, you'd be like, this place is so beautiful and amazing, and there's still a lot that we don't know about it's like core foundations, and it's not my background is not that.
• 26:50
  SPEAKER_02: So I didn't expect that I would be able to give that information to the world.
• 26:55
  SPEAKER_02: But understanding that our water, our resources, our infrastructure, everything is coming from underground, and that that has obviously a key importance to it.
• 27:04
  SPEAKER_02: I just felt like if there's anything that I can do to create the basis for more learnings and conversation around that, that was super important to me.
• 27:13
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, absolutely.
• 27:14
  SPEAKER_02: Um that was the inspiration part of it.
• 27:15
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, you fit in very well amongst geologists, Christy, uh, with that, with that, with that pitch.
• 27:19
  SPEAKER_02: Everybody compliment, but also I don't fully believe you.
• 27:23
  SPEAKER_02: But it would be great if I if I you absolutely do.
• 27:26
  SPEAKER_00: With that pitch and appreciation for the planet, I mean, yeah, absolutely.
• 27:29
  SPEAKER_00: You're you're of this exact same mindset as as everybody in geology.
• 27:33
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, so then that there's like the fog thing.
• 27:36
  SPEAKER_00: What did has the fog cleared and or what what led you to the company like boom, we're gonna start a company now?
• 27:43
  SPEAKER_00: What was that like?
• 27:45
  SPEAKER_00: Or was it just this?
• 27:46
  SPEAKER_00: This you've already described it.
• 27:48
  SPEAKER_02: I knew for myself there was a practicality around the motivation for an idea and the importance of that, but also what does my motivation look like day to day?
• 28:02
  SPEAKER_02: I wake up, I brush my teeth, like what what happens?
• 28:07
  SPEAKER_02: You know, and I think a lot of people are like, I get out of bed for this vision again and again.
• 28:10
  SPEAKER_02: And I and I think that's part of it.
• 28:12
  SPEAKER_02: But I also think there's like you check your phone and you have an email from someone, and like, what do you respond to?
• 28:16
  SPEAKER_02: And I feel like for me, I am such a person that's motivated by the people that I'm around.
• 28:22
  SPEAKER_02: And I was thinking about this idea a lot on my own.
• 28:26
  SPEAKER_02: And then I was like, if I want, I'm so drawn to this, but like who are other people that I can be having this conversation with?
• 28:33
  SPEAKER_02: And what does that look like?
• 28:35
  SPEAKER_02: And so that's where I had been sort of looking at, okay, you know, what what types of experience?
• 28:42
  SPEAKER_02: And really it was just luck that I described this to someone as a Google Maps for underground thing that I was thinking about.
• 28:47
  SPEAKER_02: And they introduced me to Al B, who was a director at Google Maps and moving to Berlin where I was living, and we were both actually in the Bay Area at the same time.
• 28:56
  SPEAKER_02: So I grabbed a coffee with him, and that was super helpful.
• 29:00
  SPEAKER_02: And I also had been brainstorming with someone who had actually done previous um research project also at Prima Materia, who was pulling together a fund.
• 29:08
  SPEAKER_02: And it was just really brainstorming this fuzzy stage part of the idea, but that allowed for the sort of inspiration or the fog to turn a bit more concrete just by having these like these sounding boards and um bit more like structures around it because you had other people that you were working on the framing with.
• 29:29
  SPEAKER_00: Got it.
• 29:30
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 29:30
  SPEAKER_00: All right.
• 29:31
  SPEAKER_00: So then you're like, okay, let's start a company.
• 29:33
  SPEAKER_00: And how do you think about what to do next?
• 29:38
  SPEAKER_00: How to start a company?
• 29:39
  SPEAKER_00: Because there's all these ways to differ to raise money, to think about product, to just keep working on it on your own.
• 29:43
  SPEAKER_00: What was that decision path like?
• 29:45
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, I was really lucky in the sense that one of the people I was brainstorming it with was an investor.
• 29:50
  SPEAKER_02: And so they had um yeah, a pre-seed fund where they could basically give a little bit of funding, which helped accelerate the ability to potentially hire and give a little bit of security around, okay, we can pursue this idea for a certain amount of time to start to de-risk that.
• 30:08
  SPEAKER_02: And so that was pretty critical for like as a believer and also somebody who had done his own fund.
• 30:14
  SPEAKER_02: So he had went through a lot of the same steps, like setting up the entity and you know, like like those sorts of practical things, like going into Stripe Atlas and selling up a Delaware entity.
• 30:24
  SPEAKER_00: It's not that hard, but like just um it feels hard until you actually do it.
• 30:30
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah.
• 30:31
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, cool.
• 30:32
  SPEAKER_00: And then um, you know, you're making uh uh a founding team, a group of the first few hires.
• 30:38
  SPEAKER_00: How does that go?
• 30:39
  SPEAKER_00: And how do you do you rely on your network to touch to get in with and how how do those conversations go?
• 30:44
  SPEAKER_00: Like recruiting people to that you need to to kind of go fast in the way that you do.
• 30:49
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, with that.
• 30:51
  SPEAKER_02: So I was also quite lucky there in the sense that um the previous job that I had at the company where I was doing soil mapping, there were two people from there that were that I'd been sort of talking about this idea with loosely, um, that both ended up joining us, and they're brilliant engineers, like actually brilliant on the technical side, and then also understand what it's like to be at a fast-paced startup.
• 31:14
  SPEAKER_02: So they both have their PhDs, but also understand a bit around the practicalities of you don't waste weeks doing something just because it's interesting if it's not useful.
• 31:23
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 31:23
  SPEAKER_00: Um, yes, yeah.
• 31:26
  SPEAKER_02: The common complaint about the PhDs working in working in industry is that's not to say I think it's it's excellent when people have PhDs, and I think also the PhD process probably helps.
• 31:35
  SPEAKER_00: But there's a tendency, there's definitely a tendency to be like, this is kind of interesting.
• 31:38
  SPEAKER_00: I'm gonna spend three weeks working on it when it has no actual bearing on the actual goals, um, for sure.
• 31:43
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I mean, I'm not sure.
• 31:45
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah, for sure.
• 31:45
  SPEAKER_00: I still struggle with that aspect in my job, even though it's kind of my job is to do that.
• 31:49
  SPEAKER_02: But I have those moments too where I have to be like, okay, wait, is it useful?
• 31:52
  SPEAKER_02: But it's of course easier when you're running payroll and seeing money go out through the door where you're like, okay, now a couple days of this means this many dollars, means if it's not useful, we shouldn't do it.
• 32:03
  SPEAKER_02: Um yeah, so so so that was um uh super lucky that they both had their, they were both um able to join.
• 32:11
  SPEAKER_02: One of the the one of them who's our CTO joined first.
• 32:13
  SPEAKER_02: He was the head of machine learning at that company, it was the CTO at a previous company.
• 32:17
  SPEAKER_02: Um and then Johannes, who was um also one of our um, so that was Hamid who joined us as CTO, and then Johannes joined as uh founding engineer um a few months later, and that was about a year ago, and they've just accelerated.
• 32:32
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, it went from me coding like what I could to whatever took me days, takes them minutes.
• 32:39
  SPEAKER_02: So it's yeah, I mean, that that was very, very lucky.
• 32:42
  SPEAKER_02: And then the person from Google Maps brought in also a former colleague from there who coincidentally was leading in product leadership there, and then also had experience on the book scanning project, which is super coincidental with um we're doing from a digitization perspective.
• 32:56
  SPEAKER_02: So so it was more I guess that's all to say.
• 32:59
  SPEAKER_02: And then yeah, her friend is a 3D designer.
• 33:02
  SPEAKER_02: So it was more um network driven.
• 33:06
  SPEAKER_02: And I think, yeah, you've met um Basti as well.
• 33:09
  SPEAKER_02: He loves rocks, and we were friends in Berlin, always talking about rocks.
• 33:11
  SPEAKER_02: So it was more like, yeah, network and Danielle had uh worked at the previous investment firm, and so we'd been discussing it more from like a startup and investment standpoint.
• 33:19
  SPEAKER_02: So it was more network driven, but I think we're we're at the point now where we're like, what do we look at ahead?
• 33:25
  SPEAKER_02: And yeah, I know one of your questions was also about like how do we what's been valuable in those early hires, or like how do we think about it?
• 33:33
  SPEAKER_00: Well, I think you've answered that, you've kind of answered that question, I think, because I I the other uh and I want to touch on another aspect of the of the the value here of um could you speak to the value of going out and working for some of the big companies and developing a network and developing uh a view of the world before I think also people have this, at least this the students and people that I interact with a bit have this view of like entrepreneurship as um this sort of Zuckerberg model where yeah, you have to have an idea and leave college actually to go do that.
• 34:05
  SPEAKER_00: When most of the people I talk to, especially in this kind of deeper tech space in the geosciences, they're they go work for a big go work for Chevron for a decade, and then you'll realize what's actually an idea worth pursuing, or go work for Exploration Company, then go back and get your PhD.
• 34:20
  SPEAKER_00: Then you're at a mature enough stage where you have a mature network of people to draw on and a mature view of the problem set that you're trying to solve here to actually go do something real.
• 34:30
  SPEAKER_00: Like you shouldn't do it right away.
• 34:32
  SPEAKER_00: Like go work for a big company for a little bit.
• 34:33
  SPEAKER_00: What do you think about that advice and how and has that does that map onto your experience in a way?
• 34:39
  SPEAKER_02: Going back to my dad example, he worked at Mattel for many years and then went on to do his own um the capper thing, and I think working on the capper.
• 34:48
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, he also had, I don't know if I've told you all the product, like like I don't think so.
• 34:52
  SPEAKER_00: No, no.
• 34:53
  SPEAKER_02: Okay, well, one day we can um I can just uh send you also for your kids to try them out.
• 34:57
  SPEAKER_00: Um, he would love to see the library of uh toys your dad's made.
• 35:01
  SPEAKER_00: That's that's totally cool.
• 35:03
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I mean there's other all over the shelves, and I keep trying to get him to put try to put one back into reproduction uh like production for um for our new generation.
• 35:13
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, absolutely.
• 35:13
  SPEAKER_00: I mean he's gotta have the the grandkids, you know, playing with it, right?
• 35:17
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, exactly.
• 35:17
  SPEAKER_02: Genuinely.
• 35:18
  SPEAKER_02: I'm like, bring kid clips back.
• 35:20
  SPEAKER_02: Um, but that being said, I think I felt like, and I this definitely wasn't coming from from him.
• 35:29
  SPEAKER_02: I think this was just coming from like society in a way, where it's like I I felt I constantly was feeling like I needed more experience before I started like something, and and like, oh, I don't feel qualified or something.
• 35:40
  SPEAKER_02: And I think there's a certain level of you learn so much while you're actually doing it that that like that was probably not needed in a way.
• 35:48
  SPEAKER_00: I think that I could see that there's a tension between the experience and feeling like you need the experience versus actually needing the experience.
• 35:55
  SPEAKER_00: There's a tension there, I could see.
• 35:57
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, definitely.
• 35:58
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, and like permission.
• 35:59
  SPEAKER_02: I don't know, like kind of feeling like, okay, it there's there needs to be a certain level of permission, which which society's not gonna give you anyway, because already now in the role, there's people that definitely look at me like, oh, that just doesn't have experience on these things or whatever.
• 36:14
  SPEAKER_02: But most of the people that do that are people that have not actually done anything themselves, because the people that have done things themselves were encouraging me to do it even sooner because they realized just like how much you need to learn that does not translate.
• 36:26
  SPEAKER_02: So just because you're in sales at a big company does not mean you can do something when the when this like the product doesn't even exist, you're not given a bunch of leads, you're not in middle management, there's a totally different skill set there.
• 36:37
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, you got to learn on the job no matter what.
• 36:39
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah.
• 36:40
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 36:40
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 36:41
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, exactly.
• 36:42
  SPEAKER_02: However, I do think some of it is helpful in terms of understanding what dynamics, like even just working at some corporate jobs when you're on conversations with potential customers, you kind of have a bit of a sense of where are they sitting in within their organization and what might they care about?
• 36:57
  SPEAKER_02: Like who do they need to make happy?
• 36:59
  SPEAKER_02: What are they do they care about like fully the success of the business, the success of their group, the success of like what are some of those internal politics?
• 37:07
  SPEAKER_02: And then of course, having experience around like this is a waste of time versus not, or an experience of understanding things that I mean, I learned from every job that I had for sure.
• 37:17
  SPEAKER_02: And like how do you de-risk projects on a fast time scale?
• 37:21
  SPEAKER_02: What traits did I appreciate from previous bosses?
• 37:24
  SPEAKER_02: What things did I learn that are maybe like reactions to that?
• 37:28
  SPEAKER_02: Um all of those sorts of things.
• 37:30
  SPEAKER_02: Totally.
• 37:31
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, yeah.
• 37:31
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, all right.
• 37:32
  SPEAKER_00: That then no, that's a great answer.
• 37:33
  SPEAKER_00: I I really like that.
• 37:35
  SPEAKER_00: So you've covered, I think you've covered all of my questions on the origin of of deep.
• 37:39
  SPEAKER_00: How's it going?
• 37:40
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, because I, you know, we we meet uh semi-regularly and talk about things, but we often get into the details of geology and and rocks and things.
• 37:49
  SPEAKER_00: At a high level, how how's it going?
• 37:51
  SPEAKER_00: What are you a year and a half in now?
• 37:53
  SPEAKER_00: Two years maybe?
• 37:53
  SPEAKER_00: What a year, a year.
• 37:55
  SPEAKER_02: Uh no, a little less than a year and a half, actually.
• 37:57
  SPEAKER_02: It feels like a long, yeah, much longer than uh we started.
• 38:03
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, like a little over a year now.
• 38:06
  SPEAKER_02: Um yeah.
• 38:08
  SPEAKER_00: What's the team look like?
• 38:10
  SPEAKER_00: Um, I think I've met several of the the key people you've talked you've mentioned already, but is the team bigger?
• 38:15
  SPEAKER_00: Are you hiring?
• 38:16
  SPEAKER_00: Are you what uh where where are we at right now and what's the next hurdle that you're approaching?
• 38:21
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, the teams, um, the those core people that I mentioned, we are starting to think about hiring.
• 38:28
  SPEAKER_02: Um, we definitely want to keep it still like lean and quick.
• 38:31
  SPEAKER_02: Um, but that's um something that's on the horizon.
• 38:35
  SPEAKER_02: We definitely want to bring in some geologist expertise.
• 38:39
  SPEAKER_02: Um, we've really appreciated all of your being patient with all of our questions.
• 38:44
  SPEAKER_00: Um you need somebody you need people who are more expert than I am at certain things.
• 38:48
  SPEAKER_00: So that's for sure.
• 38:49
  SPEAKER_02: No, you've been super, super helpful.
• 38:51
  SPEAKER_02: Um, so that's uh yeah, that's incredible, but also always open to hearing even more, yeah, more groups.
• 38:57
  SPEAKER_02: And in terms of where we're at, we've got our first customers, which is exciting.
• 39:02
  SPEAKER_02: We got our first paying customer, um, which just like is a good validation.
• 39:07
  SPEAKER_02: Okay, this is something that people actually like want and are willing to pay for.
• 39:11
  SPEAKER_02: And then now as we look, it's like, oh, actually, there's like three of those, there's five of those, there's maybe 10 of those coming up.
• 39:17
  SPEAKER_02: So so that's kind of that that's a really exciting to see.
• 39:20
  SPEAKER_02: And for me, that's a super motivating.
• 39:22
  SPEAKER_00: Can you describe that?
• 39:23
  SPEAKER_00: That's great.
• 39:23
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, I'm that's great to hear that.
• 39:25
  SPEAKER_00: What uh at what point?
• 39:26
  SPEAKER_00: So um from the startup side, how do you think about the next funding round?
• 39:32
  SPEAKER_00: Or that you you you got some sounds like angel, kind of angel money type, uh really early money just to sort of build the team.
• 39:39
  SPEAKER_00: Once you start to hit revenue, you've got paying customers.
• 39:42
  SPEAKER_00: Is that a a point in time where you're like, okay, I need to start fundraising again to kind of go faster and get bigger?
• 39:48
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, so we did our precede, which we're lucky was significant enough that we can still stay alive for another year and a half plus as a business with the team as is, not even assuming like additional revenues.
• 39:59
  SPEAKER_02: Um, but to your point around like could we push the gas more?
• 40:02
  SPEAKER_02: Like, I think that that's kind of we're at the point that we're at now where it's like, okay, we can with our current resources address this many customers.
• 40:11
  SPEAKER_02: And we're trying to, I think in a lot of ways, that the constraint is good at this stage to make sure we're not running in 20 different directions.
• 40:18
  SPEAKER_02: So like we're trying to make sure that we're building the same product for multiple customers, which I think if you have too much money, you can end up being being basically a cheap consultant for a lot of them.
• 40:29
  SPEAKER_02: But I do think we're at the point where we're like, okay, we know that if we had more resources, we could start to include way more data sets, which would open up a much broader customer base, and we could also have coverage to way more geographies.
• 40:42
  SPEAKER_02: So that's kind of the tipping point where we have a sense of the demand being stronger than we can supply in a way, um, or then we can supply on a timescale that we would like to stay quick and effective.
• 40:56
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, cool.
• 40:57
  SPEAKER_00: All right, that's awesome.
• 40:58
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, one more question and then our and then our closing question.
• 41:01
  SPEAKER_00: What have you learned in the fog in the last year and a half?
• 41:04
  SPEAKER_00: And maybe what what are some roads that you kind of explored but didn't ultimately take because of can you kind of describe the last year and a half from idea to to kind of where we're at now?
• 41:14
  SPEAKER_00: And how has the product has the vision evolved a whole bunch, or has the vision focused, narrowed in focus, or has the vision changed dramatically?
• 41:25
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 41:26
  SPEAKER_02: So it hasn't changed dramatically to like its core idea, but to your point about the fog, maybe that's because that was so fuzzy that so many things could have fit within that.
• 41:36
  SPEAKER_02: But like, but that's fine.
• 41:38
  SPEAKER_00: You know, then you've you've narrowed your focus or something onto oh, this is the one path that we're gonna at least start with, this this path.
• 41:44
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, exactly.
• 41:44
  SPEAKER_02: I think the the um some of the sectors and some of the users that we have now, it's exciting to see repeatable use cases in a way that wasn't so clear when we first set out the business.
• 42:00
  SPEAKER_02: I think there's a lot of different opportunities that we didn't quite clock in the beginning, especially on the commercial side in terms of things that you could potentially have, as I'm learning all the time now.
• 42:15
  SPEAKER_02: So, for example, someone suggested this is getting way into the weeds, but someone suggested that where we're doing a project for them, it's state we're scoping a project with a state agency, and it's much easier actually on the government side of things.
• 42:29
  SPEAKER_02: The governments can tend to have an RFP process, which can be super long.
• 42:34
  SPEAKER_02: And so it's much easier for them to work with a pre-approved provider.
• 42:38
  SPEAKER_02: And if we work with that pre-approved provider as a subcontractor to them, then that makes the process way easier for them to be able to use us.
• 42:46
  SPEAKER_02: But not only that, that pre-approved provider has a bunch of other customers.
• 42:50
  SPEAKER_02: So it's like, okay, and if we we get used to working with them, that will open up a much broader customer case.
• 42:55
  SPEAKER_02: Or like just today, just before this, I had a call with someone where they explained it's uh basically it's a portal online where utilities companies where you can look to see if there's utilities in your area.
• 43:09
  SPEAKER_02: In the US, you call a hotline, which is a whole thing.
• 43:11
  SPEAKER_02: But they in this in this example, geography, the utilities providers pay them because they're obviating the need for to need the need to answer customer requests for like, is there a utilities there or not?
• 43:25
  SPEAKER_02: So like they're paying for them to basically do that.
• 43:27
  SPEAKER_02: So for us, there's there's a potential opportunity not just to be paid by the people that are using the data, but also to be paid by the data providers.
• 43:34
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 43:35
  SPEAKER_02: Okay.
• 43:36
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah.
• 43:37
  SPEAKER_00: Interesting.
• 43:37
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 43:38
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 43:38
  SPEAKER_00: Cool.
• 43:39
  SPEAKER_02: And so I think like we're we're constantly learning, but I think that the thing that I've learned the most out of all of this is that like you can stay in the research stages and in the hypotheticals forever because there's so much more you could always learn.
• 43:51
  SPEAKER_02: And so at some point, there's like you just gotta get get going and and like get started.
• 43:57
  SPEAKER_02: And so, for example, the co discussions around Pricing.
• 44:00
  SPEAKER_02: Like we had hypothetical pricing models and everything, but we did a bunch of like free kind of work la in the last year, which was which was good.
• 44:08
  SPEAKER_02: And it got our product to like our assistant MVP state where we have our initial capabilities.
• 44:13
  SPEAKER_02: So I don't regret that.
• 44:14
  SPEAKER_02: But I also think we're learning way more on the pricing and what's possible at once we actually get into contract drafts now that we're doing.
• 44:22
  SPEAKER_02: So I would have like brought that process up sooner.
• 44:25
  SPEAKER_02: And then you start to like actually pay attention more to what things mean from a practical perspective rather than stay in this kind of there's uh there's somebody in my in my orbit who is always like he's always going, You you guys just think too much.
• 44:37
  SPEAKER_00: You gotta do more.
• 44:38
  SPEAKER_00: Like, stop thinking about it, just do it.
• 44:39
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, uh, what are you doing?
• 44:41
  SPEAKER_00: You're wasting time thinking about it, which is great, because I'm very much of the uh of the opinion where like my default mode is that you know talk is cheap, so we should do a lot of it.
• 44:51
  SPEAKER_00: Like we should sit around discussing a lot and actually uh stop talking about it, just go try it.
• 44:56
  SPEAKER_00: I don't know if it's gonna work.
• 44:57
  SPEAKER_00: Why are you talking to me about it?
• 44:58
  SPEAKER_00: Go try it.
• 44:58
  SPEAKER_02: It's like okay, well yeah, and the thing is you can find out that you talk and like if you talk with someone, then it all sounds good on paper, and then it doesn't work in practicality anyway for some reason that you can't see.
• 45:08
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, totally, totally.
• 45:09
  SPEAKER_00: Well, that that's uh that's really useful.
• 45:11
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, okay.
• 45:12
  SPEAKER_00: One last question.
• 45:13
  SPEAKER_00: What if you what's the most interesting thing you've learned about geology in this whole experience?
• 45:17
  SPEAKER_02: Oh gosh.
• 45:19
  SPEAKER_02: That is a good question.
• 45:21
  SPEAKER_00: Or something you didn't appreciate about uh you know geological stuff.
• 45:26
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, truly, like this sounds super cheesy, but the time scales are just like mind-boggling to me.
• 45:32
  SPEAKER_02: I think that's that's something that I I um underappreciated completely.
• 45:38
  SPEAKER_02: And also just, I mean, how many formations come from the fact that you had uh certain pressure and temperature changes that allowed for like materials to surface and harden in ways that happened differently over time that leads to like my phone?
• 45:55
  SPEAKER_01: I know I don't know, or or like or like this laptop that I'm on talking to you, and then just also to see that like yeah, that's so amazing.
• 46:03
  SPEAKER_01: And then you just look around and people are just like scrolling Instagram.
• 46:07
  SPEAKER_01: I don't know, it's like what a waste.
• 46:10
  SPEAKER_00: What are you wasting time on?
• 46:11
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, that's right.
• 46:11
  SPEAKER_00: We need to get this, you need to get deep earth up and running to visualize the the 3D earth and you know, show your your initial diagram, like, hey, show how this formation formed over time.
• 46:20
  SPEAKER_02: Then people can scroll that instead of scrolling Instagram because yeah, I mean it's just like it's crazy that all these materials and everything go into like us just I don't even know what.
• 46:30
  SPEAKER_02: And then it versus like this fascination.
• 46:33
  SPEAKER_02: So yeah, that's kind of um the goal would be to get it in that.
• 46:38
  SPEAKER_00: Um, I appreciate that.
• 46:39
  SPEAKER_00: That's that's a good one.
• 46:40
  SPEAKER_00: Well, I can speak for all of the the geologists and many of the people listening to this podcast.
• 46:44
  SPEAKER_00: So we hope you keep building this product and build this this this very visualize the the what's beneath our feet for us because we don't there's a ton we don't know.
• 46:53
  SPEAKER_00: And I think you're it I'm excited you for Deep Earth, because you guys you're in a great space.
• 46:56
  SPEAKER_00: There's as we've talked about before offline, there's so many state agencies and uh geological communities who are really moving forward on mapping the third the third dimension is really the final frontier in geology.
• 47:09
  SPEAKER_00: Uh we just don't have good insight in visualization into what's beneath our feet because it's a freaking complicated problem.
• 47:16
  SPEAKER_00: Um but yeah, it's a it's a tough problem to tackle.
• 47:19
  SPEAKER_00: And if you can do even a little bit, it's awesome.
• 47:22
  SPEAKER_02: So I I think that gets me to like, well, first of all, any geologists that are interested, and like I'm very happy to we're always looking for more expert input.
• 47:32
  SPEAKER_00: But if you what uh on that note, where should people because I think you you should be careful here because uh you might get a lot of emails from people, but listening to this.
• 47:41
  SPEAKER_00: But if you want uh LinkedIn or something, people can email me, or actually, yeah, LinkedIn.
• 47:47
  SPEAKER_02: LinkedIn is good.
• 47:48
  SPEAKER_02: LinkedIn, reach out on LinkedIn, Christy Cabber.
• 47:50
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, we'll put a we'll maybe try and put a link in the show notes here if people are interested.
• 47:53
  SPEAKER_00: But um what are we gonna say?
• 47:55
  SPEAKER_02: Um there's one other thing that I was gonna say on that.
• 47:56
  SPEAKER_02: Um, because it was just when you were saying like there's so much unknown.
• 47:59
  SPEAKER_02: I think I I went into robotics because I was really curious about how humans humans make decisions and how we deal with uncertainty.
• 48:06
  SPEAKER_02: And so, like uncertainty modeling in a way, and I think for me, something that I almost wish I would have gone into geology because it's like the ultimate uncertainty model, not just the modeling of it, but like how do we deal with the unknown?
• 48:17
  SPEAKER_02: And of course, you have that in space exploration too, but like that to me is something that um I'm constantly in awe with.
• 48:24
  SPEAKER_00: Uh um exploration geologist that I follow on LinkedIn who I respect who wrote a little Substack article.
• 48:29
  SPEAKER_00: I think it was Substack, um, basically talking about how geology is the ultimate like intuitive uncertainty decision-making thing.
• 48:38
  SPEAKER_00: Because even from sampling it, you're standing on an outcrop and you're like, I I can only take one or two samples in my backpack.
• 48:43
  SPEAKER_00: Which one do I take?
• 48:44
  SPEAKER_00: Like, that's a really tough decision to make.
• 48:46
  SPEAKER_00: And we make it intuitively many times, or with you know, uh a few hours introspection, maybe.
• 48:52
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but like even those decisions propagate through our data, our models infinitely.
• 48:59
  SPEAKER_00: So um it's a real yeah, I I agree completely.
• 49:01
  SPEAKER_00: And I think to me, that's the value of the geoscience degree going forward is is this like native decision making that you get when you're thinking about the earth.
• 49:10
  SPEAKER_00: And I mean you don't have to have a degree to do it, you just have to walk around, think about think about the planet at a deep level.
• 49:16
  SPEAKER_00: So anyway, yeah, I appreciate that.
• 49:18
  SPEAKER_00: You again, you will fit in very well at geol with geologists, Christy.
• 49:21
  SPEAKER_00: This would be great.
• 49:21
  SPEAKER_00: Your bright future as a geologist.
• 49:24
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 49:25
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, uh our closing question here.
• 49:27
  SPEAKER_00: What's been your best day?
• 49:29
  SPEAKER_00: And it could be as deep earth, entrepreneurship in your work life, maybe we'll broaden it.
• 49:34
  SPEAKER_02: I would either say that lollipop that put sound through your head that my dad made when I came out when I when I was four, because that was just fun.
• 49:42
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 49:42
  SPEAKER_02: Or um, so that was like probably the most fun one.
• 49:45
  SPEAKER_02: And then the like the other side is like actually, I think the the least one of my least fun days, but um it depends how you qualify best.
• 49:55
  SPEAKER_02: But um basically, I a couple of months ago, um, when we were starting to think through do we do the seed round now or not, and it wasn't the right, the right timing for a lot of reasons.
• 50:06
  SPEAKER_02: Um, but an ad investor, we started to pick up conversations with them, and I really liked them as people.
• 50:13
  SPEAKER_02: I like traveled back from the States through London to meet them with the four-month-old baby.
• 50:18
  SPEAKER_02: Like it was just a lot a lot, and and also for something that I think for us wasn't even like we're ready to take this in exactly now.
• 50:25
  SPEAKER_02: And they ended up saying no.
• 50:28
  SPEAKER_02: And I think for me, I say that because I think like especially for your students, LinkedIn has all sorts of like wins, and there's also the social media nowadays has all sorts of like stuff that works and doesn't work.
• 50:40
  SPEAKER_02: And I was quite devastated by that because that was one of the first times I heard like of rejection in that way.
• 50:47
  SPEAKER_02: And um, but the reason that it was super helpful is kind of twofold.
• 50:53
  SPEAKER_02: One, it opened up a lot of conversations with other friends who have done their own companies and stuff and just made me realize like how normal it is to face sort of rejection and such and sort of get used to that.
• 51:02
  SPEAKER_02: But then the second part of it was I realized from from a standpoint of how how do I want to grow the business?
• 51:10
  SPEAKER_02: How do I think about these things?
• 51:12
  SPEAKER_02: I think, and where do I sort of hold my ground on what pace we want to go at, how to keep the company true to what I believe, also how to accelerate the progress?
• 51:24
  SPEAKER_02: Cause I think we were way less far along at that time.
• 51:27
  SPEAKER_02: Like, how do I, I think it's easy as a startup person to sort of let the investment world kind of push and pull you around.
• 51:34
  SPEAKER_02: But how do I like hold my foundation?
• 51:38
  SPEAKER_02: Um, uh like stay, say, more of a rock in in that world and think through things and then think through how we want to proceed because my confidence was definitely like taken from that for a little bit.
• 51:50
  SPEAKER_02: And then just being like, oh, actually, like this is I and I think part of that was because the business wasn't at the place that I wanted it to be at.
• 51:57
  SPEAKER_02: So I was like, forget the investor stuff.
• 51:59
  SPEAKER_02: I just want to focus on the commercial side.
• 52:01
  SPEAKER_02: And now I feel like way more confident about just speaking about the business and everything because we do have that like actual feedback from the customers, which are the people that matter and for what we're doing, and for my opinion, and also the team.
• 52:14
  SPEAKER_02: And so basically, like that was sort of a recalibration in terms of where I let my foundations lie and how I think about taking in um like which which insecurity points hit and why, and like which ones to focus on versus which ones not to build the business for.
• 52:30
  SPEAKER_02: But it definitely wasn't it was like one of the least funned fun days.
• 52:33
  SPEAKER_00: Fun, fun, but fun but best.
• 52:35
  SPEAKER_00: That's or not fun but best.
• 52:37
  SPEAKER_00: Um, that's a great answer.
• 52:39
  SPEAKER_00: Oh man, there's there's just uh or the lollipop.
• 52:41
  SPEAKER_00: Or the lollipops.
• 52:42
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, all of them are good, but that that's a spectacular answer.
• 52:45
  SPEAKER_00: All right, cool.
• 52:45
  SPEAKER_00: Well, thanks, Christy.
• 52:46
  SPEAKER_00: Uh all the best with D birth.
• 52:48
  SPEAKER_00: And uh we'll uh maybe do uh uh a recap here.
• 52:50
  SPEAKER_00: Once you've created the the the 3D model of the planet, you know, we can do another one of these.
• 52:55
  SPEAKER_00: So thanks, thanks for the time.
• 52:57
  SPEAKER_00: I really appreciate it.
• 52:58
  SPEAKER_02: Thanks, Jesse.
• 52:59
  SPEAKER_02: All right, we'll talk to you.
• 53:00
  SPEAKER_00: Bye.