Latest / PNW Haunts & Homicides / Derrick Engebretson: The Nightmare Before Christmas

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Derrick Engebretson: The Nightmare Before Christmas · PNW Haunts & Homicides

0:00
Speaker 1: Meanwhile, news of Derek's disappearance spread through Klamath County, heightening
0:05
Speaker 1: concern amongst locals. Rumors bubbled up in grocery store aisles
0:11
Speaker 1: and school hallways, anything.
0:13
Speaker 2: From mountain lions to hidden mines.
0:16
Speaker 1: To strangers lurking in the trees. Their original kind of working,
0:21
Speaker 1: very early on in the disappearance was sort of that,
0:24
Speaker 1: you know, he just maybe had kind of wandered off,
0:27
Speaker 1: he got a little disoriented. At this point, you're almost
0:31
Speaker 1: hoping that one of the other theories is what's taken place,
0:36
Speaker 1: because maybe there's still a chance he's alive.
0:40
Speaker 2: Hi, Cassie, Hi, Caitlin. Hi. Creepy people. Hello, pepe people,
0:47
Speaker 2: Peep pee peep people in the Pacific Northwest.
0:57
Speaker 1: This is PNW hans and homicides, where we chat about
1:00
Speaker 1: true crime, the paranormal and all things related to trees.
1:08
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, yeah, because we're in the tree.
1:11
Speaker 2: Hugging Pacific North Wales. Yep, lots of trees with a PNW.
1:17
Speaker 2: If you're nasty, if you're there, nasty. I tried to
1:21
Speaker 2: sneak it in there real quick.
1:22
Speaker 1: And yeah, she tried to word vomit that out and
1:26
Speaker 1: it did not work out for her.
1:28
Speaker 2: I'm drinking beer. Okay, no, you guys can't see me
1:30
Speaker 2: if you're not watching the video. But I'm drinking a
1:32
Speaker 2: Laurel Laurel Hurst or Laurel Wood, Laurel Wood, not Laurel Hurst,
1:37
Speaker 2: but clothes. And it's called tree Hugger Porter and it's
1:41
Speaker 2: got our license plate on it, so cute. I kind
1:44
Speaker 2: of like want this license plate, but I assume it's taken. Probably.
1:48
Speaker 2: I mean, I have this license plate. I want one
1:51
Speaker 2: that says you want hug tr e H g R.
1:55
Speaker 1: You should look into that. Okay, so I'm going to
1:59
Speaker 1: jump in to it. Oh hey, wait what? We also
2:02
Speaker 1: do a tarot reading at the end of every episode
2:04
Speaker 1: for a little deeper insight into our tree topics. We
2:08
Speaker 1: forget intriguing topics treguing.
2:12
Speaker 2: You know what, I said that in my last episode,
2:14
Speaker 2: and I don't I don't think I hit it quite
2:16
Speaker 2: quite right, because neither one of us said anything about it.
2:20
Speaker 2: You didn't giggle. I didn't giggle at my own joke,
2:23
Speaker 2: and I just like.
2:24
Speaker 1: Which I usually do, I was gonna say, you probably
2:27
Speaker 1: like you didn't hit the salabbles well, I said.
2:31
Speaker 2: I listened back to it, and I was like this
2:34
Speaker 2: article was intriguing. Like I said, intriguing, it didn't land
2:39
Speaker 2: for either of us.
2:41
Speaker 1: Could have could have just been that day. I hope
2:43
Speaker 1: it landed for all of you out there because it
2:46
Speaker 1: was hilarious. She's like, I'm not above recycling my own material.
2:51
Speaker 2: Right, and I will if I miss telling you that
2:53
Speaker 2: I made a joke, I will come back on another episode.
2:56
Speaker 2: Make sure you know that I made a joke. It's
2:58
Speaker 2: important to us, not the first time. I love that.
3:04
Speaker 1: Okay, well, there's not that many jokes about this one.
3:09
Speaker 1: My working title includes The Nightmare before Christmas, and I'm
3:17
Speaker 1: not reading you a review of the Tim Burton film.
3:22
Speaker 2: I was hoping for that. I know that's a different podcast. Well,
3:28
Speaker 2: you said your Christmas themed episode, so I thought it
3:30
Speaker 2: would be happy.
3:32
Speaker 1: Yeah, true crime around the holidays is it can be
3:37
Speaker 1: a theme. I don't know that happy is the word
3:40
Speaker 1: I would use. I think you misunderstood the assignment, did I? No,
3:45
Speaker 1: we can't always be happy and fun on Christmas. We
3:48
Speaker 1: have we have serious true crime topics to talk about.
3:51
Speaker 1: It's true.
3:53
Speaker 2: It's true. Apologies all right now, I'm going to get
3:59
Speaker 2: into it. Ok Okay, I'm gonna hug my tree beer. Yeah,
4:04
Speaker 2: she needs a kozy cover up the art. That's true.
4:10
Speaker 2: That's true. Also, your hands get cold. I do have
4:12
Speaker 2: koozies though. I use that koozi you got me all
4:15
Speaker 2: the time, Like I keep it at Britney's because that's
4:17
Speaker 2: where I drink my beer and I use it every
4:19
Speaker 2: single time I'm there.
4:20
Speaker 1: What can I say? Search and rescue teams will tell
4:25
Speaker 1: you the same thing. Fresh snow is honest. Everything is recorded,
4:32
Speaker 1: every step, every pause, every wrong turn. On December fifth,
4:39
Speaker 1: nineteen ninety eight, eight year old Derek Inga Bretson walked
4:45
Speaker 1: into the Oregon Woods in rural Klamath County with his
4:49
Speaker 1: family to cut a Christmas tree and vanished.
4:53
Speaker 2: No, during the happiest time of the year. Yeah, happiest
5:00
Speaker 2: activity you cut tree farms? You know, Wait, were they
5:06
Speaker 2: I was gonna say, were they cutting out a U
5:08
Speaker 2: cut place or was it like one where you like
5:10
Speaker 2: in the woods? Were you actually like you pay like
5:12
Speaker 2: five dollars for a license or something and you go
5:14
Speaker 2: and get a tree from the woods.
5:15
Speaker 1: It's not like I don't know that people are paying
5:18
Speaker 1: for license. I thought you had to get like a
5:20
Speaker 1: license to go cut a tree from the woods. Yeah, no,
5:22
Speaker 1: you're supposed to do, Okay.
5:24
Speaker 2: I don't know if they did or didn't.
5:26
Speaker 1: I'm just saying I feel like in a lot of
5:28
Speaker 1: rural arts of Oregon and a lot of other states
5:32
Speaker 1: for that matter, people.
5:34
Speaker 2: Are just like, I'm cutting down a tree. I'm paying
5:36
Speaker 2: for no license. I didn't know that. Yeah, I just
5:40
Speaker 2: assumed everyone followed the law.
5:42
Speaker 1: I would just be out there cutting down trees all
5:45
Speaker 1: willing nilly, unlicensed.
5:50
Speaker 2: So they were like looking for those wild looking trees
5:53
Speaker 2: like the unkempt. Uh. Yeah, maybe because like they're not
5:57
Speaker 2: going to be trimmed in the forest, you know, Yeah,
5:59
Speaker 2: they're definally not going to be trimmed.
6:01
Speaker 1: I don't know if that was like an aesthetic that
6:04
Speaker 1: they were seeking or I feel like, if you if
6:07
Speaker 1: that's where you live, they just needed a tree, You're like,
6:09
Speaker 1: I'm getting a Christmas tree.
6:11
Speaker 2: Yeah.
6:14
Speaker 1: That day was icy, even by Klamath County standards. Temperatures
6:19
Speaker 1: hovered around twenty degrees fahrenheit, with snowpack along the banks
6:23
Speaker 1: and slopes of Pelican Butte already creeping several inches deep
6:30
Speaker 1: from earlier storms.
6:32
Speaker 2: So it doesn't sound like a great time to go
6:33
Speaker 2: get a Christmas tree.
6:36
Speaker 1: I mean, I think in some places we're just like
6:38
Speaker 1: that up in the gets yep, Okay, yeah. I remember
6:43
Speaker 1: driving down to uh Klamath Lake at one point, and
6:47
Speaker 1: I think it was early November, maybe late October, and
6:53
Speaker 1: it started snowing when I was about forty five minutes
6:57
Speaker 1: out from my destination, and I was like, Okay.
7:01
Speaker 2: I guess that makes sense. Are they at like a
7:02
Speaker 2: higher They're at a high elevation.
7:04
Speaker 1: It's a high elevation in certain parts, in certain parts
7:08
Speaker 1: in this part.
7:09
Speaker 2: Yes, this is yeah. They're up in the mountains.
7:13
Speaker 1: Snow muffled, sound, blanketed, the high desert, evergreens uncoded, the
7:18
Speaker 1: rugged terrain along Pelican Butte, the landscape beautiful and brutal
7:25
Speaker 1: in equal measure. Derek's footprints led through the snow and
7:31
Speaker 1: then stopped, not scattered, not disturbed, just gone.
7:39
Speaker 2: Like Bigfoot took him or something. It's a fair question.
7:45
Speaker 1: Snow doesn't forget, but on that mountain it kept a secret.
7:52
Speaker 2: I've done something really cruel.
7:55
Speaker 1: Two kid cases in a row previous to this, and
8:01
Speaker 1: this is a third, which is I listen, gone to
8:06
Speaker 1: my head. I could not have guessed that at the
8:09
Speaker 1: happiest time of the year. I would have picked to
8:13
Speaker 1: do three motherfucking cases.
8:16
Speaker 2: That are kids, back to back to back to back
8:21
Speaker 2: to back. It feels like it's actually been more than three.
8:25
Speaker 2: What's going on with you?
8:27
Speaker 1: The outing to fetch their Christmas tree was a tradition
8:31
Speaker 1: for this family. Derek had accompanied his father, Robert Bob
8:37
Speaker 1: inga Breton, and his grandfather Robert Sr.
8:41
Speaker 2: On similar outings before. Is Bob what he goes by? Her?
8:45
Speaker 2: Is his name Robert Bob? No? I think he goes
8:48
Speaker 2: by Bob? Okay? Yeah, just checking, Yeah, Robert Bob. Just
8:52
Speaker 2: to be sure. You never know.
8:54
Speaker 1: Yeah, Year after year, families partake in countless holiday traditions.
9:00
Speaker 1: They're supposed to be safe, familiar. Which should have been
9:04
Speaker 1: a memory, turned into a nightmare one that has never ended.
9:09
Speaker 1: Derek lived with his family in Bonanza.
9:13
Speaker 2: Bonanza, Bananza. I know, it sounds so fun. I didn't
9:16
Speaker 2: even know that was a place.
9:18
Speaker 1: It is in a rural, working class community, about twenty
9:22
Speaker 1: five miles east of Klamath Falls.
9:25
Speaker 2: That's probably why I've never heard of it. Yeah, I
9:28
Speaker 2: was gonna say, is there east of cold? If you're
9:35
Speaker 2: that far down south? Most of us are like, isn't
9:37
Speaker 2: that California?
9:40
Speaker 1: This high desert area, characterized by vast stretches of open
9:44
Speaker 1: land and frigid winters, could either feel peaceful or foreboding.
9:51
Speaker 2: Depending on the day.
9:54
Speaker 1: Derek loved the outdoors and was used to being outside
9:57
Speaker 1: in the elements. His father took him hunting regularly, fishing,
10:04
Speaker 1: and just exploring the woods. His level of comfort in
10:09
Speaker 1: Organ's wilderness at such a young age is something many
10:12
Speaker 1: have pointed to as part of what makes this case
10:16
Speaker 1: so baffling.
10:17
Speaker 2: That is really interesting because that's I don't know if
10:20
Speaker 2: you listen to my tree episode yet, to the part
10:24
Speaker 2: with my dad and ground not the editor, No, I
10:26
Speaker 2: haven't yet. It's very interesting because I talked about how
10:29
Speaker 2: I used to wander around in the forest and find
10:33
Speaker 2: my way back all on my own, and like me
10:35
Speaker 2: who doesn't know directions, like has no sense of but
10:39
Speaker 2: just your comfortability, I think, and I feel like if
10:43
Speaker 2: you're even experienced like that, that's even more yeah proof,
10:48
Speaker 2: like you could just find your way back right right
10:51
Speaker 2: or just like a sense.
10:53
Speaker 1: I feel like some of those things, like those activities outdoors,
10:58
Speaker 1: it's in so many different ways it helps you preserve,
11:04
Speaker 1: Like the self preservation instinct and like the right things
11:09
Speaker 1: to do.
11:10
Speaker 2: They're sort of imparted on you. Yeah.
11:15
Speaker 1: That being said, he's a very young child. So after
11:23
Speaker 1: spending much of the late morning driving forest roads and
11:28
Speaker 1: stopping periodically in the snow, the group parked along a
11:32
Speaker 1: US forest road to continue scouting for a tree. Derek
11:38
Speaker 1: wandered slightly ahead while his father placed several freshly cut
11:43
Speaker 1: branches into their pickup.
11:47
Speaker 2: Okay, I thought you were saying, placed them on the ground,
11:49
Speaker 2: like so they could find their way back, like a
11:52
Speaker 2: little breadcrumb.
11:53
Speaker 1: Right, Yeah, very handsome and gretel. No, why was he
11:56
Speaker 1: taking branches? I'm sure they were planning to do some
12:00
Speaker 1: sort of like garland or something like that.
12:03
Speaker 2: Yeah, reads some things.
12:07
Speaker 1: It was during one of these seemingly ordinary and fleeting moments,
12:13
Speaker 1: just the slightest lapse of attention, the kind that happens
12:17
Speaker 1: in a heartbeat, that Derek slipped out of sight. Bob
12:23
Speaker 1: later told investigators he had turned away briefly, his attention
12:27
Speaker 1: turned to the task at hand, and when he looked back,
12:31
Speaker 1: Derek was gone.
12:34
Speaker 2: So strange.
12:36
Speaker 1: Yes, it's such an isolated place at that time of year.
12:45
Speaker 1: He called out, expecting to hear the boy answer from
12:50
Speaker 1: behind a tree or over a short ridge, But there
12:55
Speaker 1: was nothing, no voice, no movement, no crackling footsteps on snow,
13:06
Speaker 1: just cold, heavy quiet.
13:08
Speaker 2: So like if someone had taken him and ran away, right,
13:12
Speaker 2: you would hear if he was running.
13:13
Speaker 1: Earth would feel as though that might be audible.
13:18
Speaker 2: Yeah.
13:19
Speaker 1: Within minutes, Derek's father and grandfather began scouring the immediate area.
13:26
Speaker 1: Tracks were visible, small prints and the snow leading away
13:30
Speaker 1: from the road toward dense trees. They followed them and
13:35
Speaker 1: soon encountered what would become one of the most haunting
13:39
Speaker 1: images in the case, a final, clearly defined footprint that
13:46
Speaker 1: abruptly ended near a wooded drainage area. There were no
13:51
Speaker 1: signs of a struggle, no disturbance, and the snow just
13:56
Speaker 1: a sudden stop, as if the boy had vanished mid stride.
14:02
Speaker 1: What did he like fall into another dimension? I mean, honestly,
14:07
Speaker 1: anything feels possible in this case. It's so weird, it's
14:14
Speaker 1: very strange, And there are a number of theories.
14:17
Speaker 2: We'll definitely get to them, but I'm sure there are Yeah,
14:20
Speaker 2: I'm sure there's wild ones. Yeah, like they're worse than
14:23
Speaker 2: my bigfoot theory.
14:24
Speaker 1: Yeah, that oddly did not make the more popular theory list.
14:33
Speaker 2: The reason I said that really quickly before I forget,
14:36
Speaker 2: I heard a story about Bigfoot and it was like,
14:39
Speaker 2: you know Bigfoot episode. I think it was a podcast,
14:42
Speaker 2: and they talked about someone just disappearing from the woods.
14:45
Speaker 1: Yes, no, I mean I've I've definitely heard stories like that,
14:50
Speaker 1: and for whatever reason, you know, the individual circumstances of
14:54
Speaker 1: the story, people thought, Okay, this, this feels like squatch.
14:59
Speaker 2: Right, Like what other explanation would there be?
15:01
Speaker 1: And with each of the more popular theories, there are
15:06
Speaker 1: things that like fit, and then none of them feels
15:11
Speaker 1: quite adequate, which I think is probably the most frustrating part.
15:17
Speaker 1: I think I know where I land in terms of
15:21
Speaker 1: the popular theories, but I'm definitely gonna be curious what
15:25
Speaker 1: you think she's like. I'm squatch through and through squatch watch.
15:31
Speaker 1: By late afternoon, the Klamath County Sheriff's Office launched a response,
15:36
Speaker 1: and search and rescue teams began mobilizing. Darkness approached quickly,
15:41
Speaker 1: with temperatures dipping into the teams as more snow fell
15:46
Speaker 1: over the shadowed woods, the combination of conditions creating a
15:52
Speaker 1: terrifying scenario. If Derek was out there alone, hypothermia would
15:58
Speaker 1: set in quickly.
15:59
Speaker 2: Yeah.
16:00
Speaker 1: For the first several hours, the prevailing belief was simple
16:05
Speaker 1: and hopeful. Derek had wandered off, become disoriented, and was
16:10
Speaker 1: sheltering somewhere nearby. Over the next forty eight hours, search
16:15
Speaker 1: efforts expanded to include hundreds of searchers and volunteers.
16:21
Speaker 2: WOW teams combed.
16:22
Speaker 1: The area using helicopters, snowopiles, dogs, and infrared equipment.
16:30
Speaker 2: They have to find him, right.
16:32
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean it's it's always critical in the first
16:37
Speaker 1: forty eight That's why they named the show.
16:40
Speaker 2: That, especially in these fucking conditions with those elements. I'm
16:44
Speaker 2: freezing right now. Yes, I know you need to put
16:47
Speaker 2: your sweater on. It's got cold. I know I have chills.
16:51
Speaker 2: I have chills, and you know me, I run hot.
16:55
Speaker 2: But ya talking about the cold like this though. It
16:59
Speaker 2: just makes sure you want to put on your Santas letter.
17:02
Speaker 2: It sure does.
17:04
Speaker 1: They uncovered only a handful of ambiguous clues. There was
17:11
Speaker 1: a small disturbance scraped into a snow bank, possibly where
17:15
Speaker 1: a child had tried to shelter. There were reports of
17:20
Speaker 1: the name Derek, or perhaps even just the letter D
17:25
Speaker 1: having been marked into the snow on a log or embankment. What, Yeah,
17:32
Speaker 1: the account's buried.
17:33
Speaker 2: It's very it's very hard to tell a loggy embankment.
17:38
Speaker 1: I mean they say, like maybe on a log, maybe
17:42
Speaker 1: somewhere in the snow of the embankment.
17:45
Speaker 2: It's it's unclear, it's murky. How is there not like
17:49
Speaker 2: a picture of it. No, it's not evidence.
17:53
Speaker 1: Just because it's evidence doesn't mean it's publicly available. In fact,
17:57
Speaker 1: a lot of evidences never populate.
18:00
Speaker 2: Okay, they just didn't clarify that part, because Okay, I'm
18:04
Speaker 2: always thinking if you know something like yeah, how did
18:06
Speaker 2: they not know?
18:07
Speaker 1: Like yeah, they're like, oh wait, you're like listen, all
18:11
Speaker 1: credit to you, but like how did they not Yeah,
18:14
Speaker 1: okay I know. No, No, like you really have like
18:18
Speaker 1: certain things you're like no, no, no, I really want
18:20
Speaker 1: to drill down, like huh right, No, it's like it's
18:24
Speaker 1: a good thing to be, Like, I'm going to think
18:26
Speaker 1: about this critically, Like.
18:28
Speaker 2: But they keep certain things secret sometimes in case they yeah,
18:32
Speaker 2: or just like some details.
18:34
Speaker 1: It may not even be that it's like secrecy specifically
18:38
Speaker 1: about the investigation, but it may just be that like
18:43
Speaker 1: there's a lot of stuff that they're just not releasing
18:46
Speaker 1: to the public because, first of all, it's like a
18:49
Speaker 1: massive undertaking for them to do that, because they have
18:53
Speaker 1: to come through what they do know about the case.
18:56
Speaker 1: They have to confirm is this something we want to
18:59
Speaker 1: make publicly available, And they have to figure out ways
19:03
Speaker 1: to transmit whatever information, you know, images, whatever that is,
19:09
Speaker 1: whatever that looks like interesting And why would they do
19:13
Speaker 1: that if they don't need to? But I want to know,
19:16
Speaker 1: I exactly, Yeah, because I want to know. And that's why,
19:20
Speaker 1: because if he was out there writing his name on things,
19:22
Speaker 1: that breaks my heart.
19:24
Speaker 2: Yeah.
19:25
Speaker 1: A snowplow driver later reported a possible sighting of a
19:29
Speaker 1: small figure near the roadway. And that is about all
19:34
Speaker 1: there is to that thread. So okay, could have been anything, Yep,
19:41
Speaker 1: could have been something, could have been nothing, could have
19:43
Speaker 1: been any number of things in between.
19:47
Speaker 2: It could have been a baby bigfoot. I'm very upset
19:50
Speaker 2: right now. She's like, I'm really holding onto the bigfoot thing.
19:53
Speaker 1: I'm just gonna what. Searchers didn't find proved us as haunting.
20:01
Speaker 1: No additional footprints beyond the original set. The combination of
20:07
Speaker 1: faint signs and stark absences painted an unsettling picture evidence
20:15
Speaker 1: that a child had been there, followed by nothing at all.
20:20
Speaker 1: Like you said, it's like a portal opened up. I
20:24
Speaker 1: can't even pretend to sherlock.
20:27
Speaker 2: How that happened? That? Yeah? Like, where did there?
20:35
Speaker 1: That is the crux of this case. I feel like
20:40
Speaker 1: one of one of As hours and eventually days passed,
20:46
Speaker 1: the abrupt end of Derek's tracks raised growing concern among
20:51
Speaker 1: investigators that the explanation might be more complicated than a
20:57
Speaker 1: child simply lost in the woods. Tracks don't just disappear
21:02
Speaker 1: in fresh snow, at least not without help. As the
21:07
Speaker 1: search for eight year old Derek Ingebretsen stretched into its
21:12
Speaker 1: second and third days, it ballooned into a massive operation
21:17
Speaker 1: rarely seen in Klamath County. What began as a missing
21:21
Speaker 1: child search rapidly expanded into a multi agency response involving
21:27
Speaker 1: local deputies, the Oregon State Police, US Forest Service officers,
21:34
Speaker 1: volunteer search and rescue groups, experienced trackers, mountain teams, aircrews,
21:41
Speaker 1: and dozens of local residents determined to bring Derek home.
21:47
Speaker 1: Amidst the punishing terrain, the search continued, as did speculation
21:52
Speaker 1: about the unsettling possibilities.
21:55
Speaker 2: I can't imagine what kind of immediate theories there were.
22:01
Speaker 2: I mean, I can't imagine. That's what I meant to say.
22:03
Speaker 2: I can't imagine.
22:05
Speaker 1: I think some of them are Some of them are
22:08
Speaker 1: surprising because because you want to thay I, you know,
22:14
Speaker 1: maybe I just don't think very much of humans.
22:18
Speaker 2: I don't.
22:18
Speaker 1: Yeah, maybe that's the part that surprising is I'm like, oh, no,
22:23
Speaker 1: I figured somebody would. Most of them are not necessarily
22:28
Speaker 1: problematic as a theory. I think it's all about how
22:34
Speaker 1: we speak about these things, how we approached the topic.
22:38
Speaker 1: Pelican Butte's terrain is riddled with small creeks, drainage ditches,
22:43
Speaker 1: and deep pockets of concealed space created by fallen timber
22:48
Speaker 1: or undercut snow banks. As the search of the treacherous
22:52
Speaker 1: terrain wore on, several chilling prospects were explored. Did Derek
22:58
Speaker 1: fall into a part actually frozen creek or perhaps slipped
23:04
Speaker 1: into a hidden pocket of snow. Another theory that was
23:08
Speaker 1: kind of floated was that maybe he slipped into like
23:12
Speaker 1: a cravasse of sorts, like maybe some involuntary splunking, which
23:19
Speaker 1: is the most horrifying.
23:22
Speaker 2: When you see a hole though, like his Dad was
23:24
Speaker 2: right behind him.
23:25
Speaker 1: Right, So these are things that again it's like unless
23:30
Speaker 1: the snow le like yeah, I mean it's it's confounding.
23:34
Speaker 2: But then then it's after like they would have did
23:37
Speaker 2: they not look at when this? Does the snow ever
23:39
Speaker 2: melt or is it always constantly snow does melt in
23:43
Speaker 2: the smelt? So they would find You're like.
23:48
Speaker 1: Your head, your head is in the right place, You're
23:50
Speaker 1: like ten steps ahead.
23:52
Speaker 2: I'm trying. Yeah, no, you're like, I'm gonna solve it.
23:55
Speaker 2: I'm gonna solve it. I know Caitlin, I know she
23:57
Speaker 2: knows all the details and be.
23:59
Speaker 1: Put, No, I would never know who, Like, how could
24:05
Speaker 1: I ever make that like about me?
24:08
Speaker 2: I would be so jealous.
24:09
Speaker 1: But yeah, a fall into icy water could explain the
24:14
Speaker 1: sudden end of the footprints.
24:17
Speaker 2: Was there water right there?
24:21
Speaker 1: Yeah, there are some creeks and like drainage ditches and things.
24:25
Speaker 2: So I mean it's it's a possibility.
24:27
Speaker 1: I feel like that of the theories, I feel like
24:30
Speaker 1: that seems like slightly more remote. I think there are
24:34
Speaker 1: a lot of other possibilities related to the topography.
24:40
Speaker 2: I need to see the scene.
24:42
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think there are other possibilities that seem potentially
24:47
Speaker 1: like maybe more viable, but but thorough searches of creeks
24:53
Speaker 1: and ravines turned up no evidence to support this scenario.
24:58
Speaker 1: If Derek had fallen into water or a cravose of
25:03
Speaker 1: some kind, it was believed there would be more physical
25:06
Speaker 1: evidence because I think even if you start slipping into
25:12
Speaker 1: water or like down into a hole, there's like some
25:16
Speaker 1: sort of kind of it's almost like a biological imperative
25:21
Speaker 1: really that like you're gonna be thrashing and you're gonna
25:24
Speaker 1: be like grabbing onto anything you can to try to
25:27
Speaker 1: What if.
25:27
Speaker 2: Something like fell on his head.
25:30
Speaker 1: I mean, there's so many things that could happen in
25:33
Speaker 1: a forest to a tiny child.
25:36
Speaker 2: That's really scary. She and I were probably the same height.
25:40
Speaker 2: Don't go into the forest, Caitlin.
25:45
Speaker 1: But what about the possibility of a stranger abduction, squatch
25:50
Speaker 1: or not. That would be so weird, like for someone
25:54
Speaker 1: to just it would be Following this came one of
26:00
Speaker 1: the most controversial and chilling theories. The roadway running past
26:07
Speaker 1: Helicompute was accessible enough for a passing vehicle. It's possible
26:12
Speaker 1: that if someone saw Derek alone, even briefly, the child
26:17
Speaker 1: could have been snatched quickly with no footprints left behind.
26:22
Speaker 2: How would there be no footprints from the other person.
26:26
Speaker 1: So I'm assuming because again there's only so much that
26:31
Speaker 1: we can know about the specific conditions of that day.
26:35
Speaker 1: But they were loading trees and branches into their truck,
26:41
Speaker 1: so that was on the side of the road, presumably
26:46
Speaker 1: if Derek was not quite on the road but very nearby,
26:53
Speaker 1: and maybe they didn't notice somehow another passing vehicle because
26:56
Speaker 1: they were just beyond like in the trees or like
27:00
Speaker 1: on the other side of the vehicle, like whatever that
27:03
Speaker 1: looks like they.
27:05
Speaker 2: Could presumably like literally pick this.
27:08
Speaker 1: Kid up, like like the hood of his jacket and
27:11
Speaker 1: just yank him literally out of the snow.
27:14
Speaker 2: Possibly or you don't have eyes on the case very
27:18
Speaker 2: few seconds footprints though, like I I guess.
27:25
Speaker 1: I'm not saying it makes perfect sense and that we
27:28
Speaker 1: don't like I feel like I need a three D model.
27:31
Speaker 1: What made this theory especially disturbing is that aligned with
27:37
Speaker 1: several unresolved elements of the case, the reported but unconfirmed
27:42
Speaker 1: snowplow drivers sighting, the abrupt end of tracks, the lack
27:49
Speaker 1: of a confirmed scent. There was no confirmed scent trail
27:54
Speaker 1: because they did bring in dogs, as well as the
27:57
Speaker 1: possibility that Derek might have tried to just return to
28:03
Speaker 1: the road because that's where their vehicle was. Investigators never
28:08
Speaker 1: ruled out abduction. In fact, some detectives privately considered the theory,
28:16
Speaker 1: although they lacked concrete evidence to go public with it.
28:21
Speaker 1: So I think that's kind of important because I feel like,
28:25
Speaker 1: where they don't necessarily publicly release an official theory of
28:30
Speaker 1: a crime, people kind of are left to speculate. Oh, yeah,
28:34
Speaker 1: they are, and people can be focusing on the case
28:39
Speaker 1: based on a completely different theory that maybe isn't helpful
28:43
Speaker 1: to the investigation as it's unfolding.
28:48
Speaker 2: I'm worried about the family, yeah, Like what kind of
28:53
Speaker 2: theory is about that? Yep, And you're right to be concerned. Meanwhile,
28:59
Speaker 2: news of Derek's disappearance spread through Klamath County, heightening concern
29:04
Speaker 2: amongst locals. Rumors bubbled up in grocery store aisles and
29:09
Speaker 2: school hallways, anything from.
29:12
Speaker 1: Mountain lions to hidden minds to strangers lurking in the trees.
29:18
Speaker 1: As hours turned into days, hope began to dim, but
29:24
Speaker 1: the investigation was still in the early days. I think
29:28
Speaker 1: the thing that would be so hard about this is
29:32
Speaker 1: that their original kind of working very early on in
29:37
Speaker 1: the disappearance was sort of that, you know, he just
29:40
Speaker 1: maybe had kind of wandered off, he got a little disoriented,
29:45
Speaker 1: And if that were the case and they didn't find
29:47
Speaker 1: him right away, it doesn't bode well. At this point,
29:52
Speaker 1: you're almost hoping that one of the other theories is
29:56
Speaker 1: what's taken place, because maybe there's still a chance he's
29:59
Speaker 1: a lot But given the conditions, if he's still out
30:05
Speaker 1: there and he's alone and potentially injured or trapped somehow,
30:13
Speaker 1: it's not good.
30:16
Speaker 2: Unless he burrowed himself in a warm hole with a
30:19
Speaker 2: bunch of grubs or something to eat, make a little
30:21
Speaker 2: bit of water, like yeah, that's what I want. Yeah,
30:25
Speaker 2: But then I wish they would have found him.
30:29
Speaker 1: As days stretched in two weeks, the search for Derek
30:33
Speaker 1: evolved from an urgent rescue mission into one of the
30:37
Speaker 1: most perplexing missing child investigations in Oregon history. Without footprints,
30:44
Speaker 1: a scent trail, or other physical evidence pointing clearly toward
30:49
Speaker 1: accident or foul play, investigators began widening the scope of
30:55
Speaker 1: their inquiry. That meant re examining witnesses, potential suspects, and
31:02
Speaker 1: inevitably the family, because they were kind of most of
31:07
Speaker 1: the people that could fit those bills. Yeah, it's almost
31:11
Speaker 1: always someone that knows or literally is part of the
31:16
Speaker 1: family when a child goes missing.
31:19
Speaker 2: I mean it's statistically hate that though, because it's so
31:22
Speaker 2: traumatizing if you have nothing to do with it, and
31:25
Speaker 2: you're just like, find the fucking person who did this. Yep.
31:28
Speaker 1: In nearly all missing child cases, investigators begin with those
31:33
Speaker 1: closest to the victim, and I would argue that's true
31:38
Speaker 1: in adult cases too to some degree. Right, That's where
31:41
Speaker 1: we get the very fun colloquialism.
31:45
Speaker 2: The husband did it.
31:47
Speaker 1: Not because they assume guilt in every situation though, but
31:51
Speaker 1: because statistically family members are very often involved.
31:56
Speaker 2: It's like the easiest thing to rule out to. They
31:58
Speaker 2: know exactly who to talk to, exactly exactly. For the
32:03
Speaker 2: Inga Bretsons, this scrutiny was painful and immediate. Derek's father,
32:10
Speaker 2: Robert Bob Inga Britton, Robert bub Robert Bob.
32:15
Speaker 1: I mean, I feel like you have to kind of
32:17
Speaker 1: make the distinction because the grandfather is also Robert, and
32:22
Speaker 1: I feel like older men went by Robert. They didn't
32:25
Speaker 1: do like the shortening, you know, and his grandfather speaks
32:29
Speaker 1: of the devil, Robert Senior, not the actual devil.
32:33
Speaker 2: Hopefully.
32:35
Speaker 1: They were interviewed multiple times and reportedly cooperated fully. Bob
32:41
Speaker 1: even agreed to a polygraph examination. And honestly, I think
32:46
Speaker 1: that hurt him in this case because they never released
32:51
Speaker 1: the results that I could find documented anywhere. In fact,
32:57
Speaker 1: everything that I read about this case said result were
33:00
Speaker 1: never released, and that just reads like a strike against him,
33:05
Speaker 1: even though that means literally nothing.
33:07
Speaker 2: Very unfair, and I get I get where people are
33:10
Speaker 2: coming from. That's very unfair.
33:11
Speaker 1: It creates a really negative perception based on absolutely zero
33:16
Speaker 1: point zero zero percent information. Law enforcement stressed early on
33:22
Speaker 1: that they had no evidence whatsoever pointing toward family involvement.
33:27
Speaker 2: I was wondering if he, like, if he failed it,
33:29
Speaker 2: but they kind of knew, like maybe he was just
33:31
Speaker 2: really nervous and like feel the entire thing. I mean,
33:34
Speaker 2: and they can't put this out or people are going
33:36
Speaker 2: to think, yeah, obviously I'm speculating, have no idea your speculation.
33:40
Speaker 2: It could be anything. It really could.
33:42
Speaker 1: Honestly, I was kind of as I was reading that
33:46
Speaker 1: and researching, my thought was kind of I mean, similar vain.
33:51
Speaker 1: I thought, I feel like maybe the results were inconclusive or.
33:56
Speaker 2: That, because then people will draw their own conclusions to that.
34:00
Speaker 1: Yeah, in its own way, like inconclusive polygraph results.
34:05
Speaker 2: Kind of like people will twist that both ways.
34:08
Speaker 1: Yeah, they'll say, oh my god, he was so stressed
34:11
Speaker 1: out that, like the results were inconclusive and it's because
34:14
Speaker 1: he's such a mess. Or people will say he's clearly guilty.
34:18
Speaker 1: The results were inconclusive. He's a sociopath and he knows
34:22
Speaker 1: how to at least try to beat the machine. Yeah,
34:28
Speaker 1: not that easy as it is literally taking like baseline vitals.
34:34
Speaker 2: It's I mean, I'm glad they didn't. It's put it
34:37
Speaker 2: out there though.
34:38
Speaker 1: If it was inconclusive, well, here's the thing, it wouldn't
34:40
Speaker 1: be admissible in court these days. And there's a reason
34:43
Speaker 1: for that because people react to trauma, stress, all of
34:47
Speaker 1: these situations so differently, and it's clearly not the most
34:53
Speaker 1: reliable data, reliable science to base someone's guilt or innocence on.
35:00
Speaker 2: I really want to take one just to see, because
35:02
Speaker 2: I get really nervous when people are asking me questions
35:04
Speaker 2: whether I know the answer, whether I'm usually I'm not lying.
35:08
Speaker 2: Sometimes I am, but like I get really nervous when
35:10
Speaker 2: I'm telling the truth because I think someone's going to
35:13
Speaker 2: think I'm lying to them.
35:14
Speaker 1: No, I a thousand percent as someone who took their permit.
35:20
Speaker 1: Like you know, there's like the driving test when you're
35:22
Speaker 1: ready to get your license, but there's the test that
35:25
Speaker 1: tests your knowledge. And I knew all of the things.
35:29
Speaker 1: But when they started doing the computer test, it would
35:32
Speaker 1: like blink at you and it would tell you every
35:34
Speaker 1: time you got a question wrong, and it would show
35:38
Speaker 1: like the percentage as you proceeded. I took that test
35:43
Speaker 1: an unspecified number of times, so stressful. The Inger Bretsons
35:51
Speaker 1: were not a wealthy family, and they lived a relatively
35:54
Speaker 1: private life. So here's the other thing. Is now, all
35:59
Speaker 1: of a sudden because because they're relatively private people, they're like, oh,
36:04
Speaker 1: what do you got to hide?
36:06
Speaker 2: I was just like, there's no winning, No, there's not.
36:11
Speaker 1: In small rural communities like Bonanza, privacy can easily morph
36:17
Speaker 1: into suspicion rumors world none of which were supported by evidence,
36:25
Speaker 1: but the scrutiny lingered, amplified by the lack of answers.
36:30
Speaker 1: I mean to me, I just I just kept thinking.
36:33
Speaker 1: It's like it's the Jean Benet of it, all right,
36:37
Speaker 1: you know it is.
36:40
Speaker 2: Unsolved.
36:41
Speaker 1: Cases just get people going in a way that like,
36:46
Speaker 1: I mean sometimes like reason, is she in the room
36:51
Speaker 1: with us? Like no, no, no, she's not.
36:55
Speaker 2: No. I was definitely like thinking of Chiren during this.
36:59
Speaker 1: Yes, that's the other one that comes to mind for me,
37:01
Speaker 1: because I feel like it's just as much as I
37:05
Speaker 1: think that I know what I think occurred in the
37:10
Speaker 1: Kirene Horman case, I feel like I know what I
37:14
Speaker 1: think happened here, but there's no good there's no good
37:18
Speaker 1: answer what child is missing. A significant early lead involved
37:24
Speaker 1: a white Dodge pickup seen near the area where Derek disappeared.
37:28
Speaker 1: A female witness came forward and described a man in
37:32
Speaker 1: his forties or fifties acting strangely, possibly watching families along
37:38
Speaker 1: the tree cutting routes. This man reportedly approached the woman
37:42
Speaker 1: and her daughter, asking odd questions that made her uncomfortable.
37:47
Speaker 1: Not exactly sure what those questions were, but it doesn't
37:51
Speaker 1: take a lot of imagination. Not sure how uncomfortable, not
37:56
Speaker 1: sure how odd the questions.
37:58
Speaker 2: I hate that. I hate it. Someone could possibly just
38:02
Speaker 2: be like scoping out a nice family Christmas tree like day.
38:09
Speaker 1: Yep, it's nothing is safe and welcome to hell.
38:16
Speaker 2: It's like this is what you expect if you go
38:18
Speaker 2: like to a city Christmas tree place. You know, like
38:20
Speaker 2: someone snatched my kid because there's so many people around
38:23
Speaker 2: right in the middle of fucking nowhere. Yeah, who the.
38:28
Speaker 1: Fuck is grabbing my child? I've been seeing another person
38:31
Speaker 1: for three hours. Her description helped generate a composite sketch.
38:38
Speaker 2: Ooh.
38:40
Speaker 1: The sketch, featuring a broad shouldered man with scruffy hair
38:44
Speaker 1: wearing outdoor gear was circulated widely, and I can see
38:50
Speaker 1: the wheels turning.
38:51
Speaker 2: I want the picture, I bet you do. That's some
38:54
Speaker 2: lumberjack porn. Well, I wasn't thinking that he might be hot.
38:58
Speaker 2: I just wanted to see it. Okay, But here's the thing.
39:01
Speaker 1: In a rural area like Klamoth County with over sixty
39:05
Speaker 1: five thousand residents at the time, many of whom might
39:10
Speaker 1: fit the description, the sketch was unable to produce any
39:14
Speaker 1: solid leads. I could see that because literally everybody matches
39:18
Speaker 1: the description of a broad shouldered man with scruffy hair.
39:22
Speaker 2: And outdoor gear lumber jack.
39:26
Speaker 1: Despite repeated tips and follow ups, the identity of the
39:29
Speaker 1: man was never confirmed and the lead ultimately stalled. What
39:34
Speaker 1: I did read is that person faced a lot of
39:39
Speaker 1: intense scrutiny within the community, but they didn't know who
39:43
Speaker 1: it was. Some people knew, Oh that's okay, cannot confirm there.
39:50
Speaker 2: Or some people thought that they knew. Yeah, okay, Wow.
39:55
Speaker 1: There were definitely people that thought that they knew. Maybe
39:58
Speaker 1: some people did. And here's the thing is, generally, if
40:02
Speaker 1: you have concerns and they're like in this situation, you
40:07
Speaker 1: should absolutely come forward, right, But it's all of the
40:11
Speaker 1: people who want to stick their nose in on the
40:14
Speaker 1: back end that weren't involved, didn't see anything, don't really
40:18
Speaker 1: have anything to contribute except their musings.
40:24
Speaker 2: Like this guy's kind of alone, are kind of a weirdo.
40:27
Speaker 2: It's probably him. Yeah, he looks like he'd take a kid.
40:30
Speaker 2: And some of.
40:30
Speaker 1: Those people can literally never have a normal life after that. Yeah,
40:37
Speaker 1: it's horrific. It's like a secondary crime. Investigators reviewed known
40:44
Speaker 1: offenders with histories of abducting or harming children in Oregon
40:49
Speaker 1: and neighboring northern California, cross referencing Derek's disappearance against other
40:56
Speaker 1: cases involving opportunistic predators. Detectives evaluated multiple individuals as part
41:05
Speaker 1: of that process, but none emerged as a clear or
41:08
Speaker 1: definitive match. They did find a few guys they were
41:12
Speaker 1: concerned about.
41:15
Speaker 2: I bet they did. Yeah, there's a few guys in
41:18
Speaker 2: the world everyone should be concerned about.
41:19
Speaker 1: Well, but like in that particular part of I mean,
41:24
Speaker 1: it's a rural community and there's a lot of other
41:28
Speaker 1: very rural communities that surround it, so it's like it's
41:32
Speaker 1: not a particularly dense population area. But they found a
41:38
Speaker 1: few people they were concerned about. Ultimately, investigators were unable
41:45
Speaker 1: to establish any confirmed connection between Derek's disappearance and known
41:51
Speaker 1: offenders in the surrounding region. There is definitely one person
41:57
Speaker 1: Reddit was very very interested in, as it seems, so
42:06
Speaker 1: we're authorities, But what if Derek encountered an entirely different
42:13
Speaker 1: type of predator. Derek's small size prompted speculation that a
42:19
Speaker 1: wild animal could have taken him. Now, not exactly the
42:24
Speaker 1: squatch theory, right, but mountain lion sidings were common in
42:31
Speaker 1: the region, and the deep woods around Pelican Butte were
42:36
Speaker 1: prime hunting territory.
42:39
Speaker 2: But wildlife experts have.
42:42
Speaker 1: By and large and ultimately quickly dismissed the theory. A
42:47
Speaker 1: Mountain Lai attack would typically leave drag marks, blood, or
42:51
Speaker 1: torn clothing. And I can't imagine it's particularly quiet, right,
42:59
Speaker 1: there would have been some sort of signs of a struggle,
43:03
Speaker 1: like even if they're not tall enough to just like
43:07
Speaker 1: pick something up.
43:08
Speaker 2: By their mouth and like, yeah.
43:10
Speaker 1: No, this is a child of a significant height and
43:13
Speaker 1: weight that I mean, they're on their back and they're big.
43:18
Speaker 2: Well, I don't think they're planning to have him ride.
43:20
Speaker 2: I feel like it would need to be dragged, like
43:22
Speaker 2: you said, like, there's no way it's just picking it
43:24
Speaker 2: up straight and like, yeah, I don't see that happening.
43:28
Speaker 1: Nope, there did not appear to be any signs of
43:32
Speaker 1: a pursuit because they stalk their prey. Yeah, and little
43:37
Speaker 1: else supported the theory of an animal attack.
43:41
Speaker 2: Unless it's an animal we don't know about.
43:44
Speaker 1: One of the most discussed pieces of evidence came about
43:48
Speaker 1: a week into the search, a folding knife found near
43:53
Speaker 1: the area where Derek was last seen. The knife reportedly
43:58
Speaker 1: belonged to Derek. Oh, I don't know that authorities have
44:03
Speaker 1: ever confirmed that they were able to confirm it belonged
44:08
Speaker 1: to him, but the consensus in general was that the
44:13
Speaker 1: knife is believed to have belonged to Derek. Okay, the
44:18
Speaker 1: blade was missing and the handles showed signs of weather exposure,
44:24
Speaker 1: but no signs of a struggle, so no obvious blood.
44:28
Speaker 2: I'm assuming blade was missing.
44:31
Speaker 1: That's strange for a folding, like I'm picturing like kind
44:37
Speaker 1: of a like a pocket knife. Yeah, I don't know
44:40
Speaker 1: how that happens, but I'm assuming if there's some sort
44:43
Speaker 1: of an altercation that occurs where the blade is removed,
44:49
Speaker 1: there should also be blood and they're not finding that
44:52
Speaker 1: allegedly reportedly.
44:55
Speaker 2: I don't know. I don't know.
44:58
Speaker 1: Did he climb a tree? Like was there a tree
45:00
Speaker 1: next to his footprints? Did he like, I mean there's everywhere.
45:03
Speaker 1: Did you try to like stab and then he was
45:07
Speaker 1: not particularly like they didn't report that he was an
45:11
Speaker 1: normally tall child six' four and BECAUSE i could see Where,
45:17
Speaker 1: okay maybe he's struck into a tree and he's trying
45:19
Speaker 1: to climb.
45:20
Speaker 2: Whatever, well he's an average sized. Child, YEAH i don't.
45:25
Speaker 1: Know investigators never conclusively determined whether the knife was dropped
45:32
Speaker 1: the day he, vanished or maybe even on an earlier.
45:37
Speaker 1: Outing it's like maybe the family who actually frequently went, hiking, hunting.
45:44
Speaker 1: Fishing maybe he'd actually lost that pocket knife on a
45:49
Speaker 1: unrelated date outing.
45:52
Speaker 2: Adventure where the fuck did the? Blake so many, questions
45:58
Speaker 2: so many.
45:58
Speaker 1: Questions in the months Following derek's, disappearance tips poured in
46:04
Speaker 1: from Across oregon and neighboring, states Including, California, washington And.
46:10
Speaker 1: Idaho sightings were reported in public places and remote, areas
46:16
Speaker 1: alike a child Resembling, derek scene with unfamiliar, adults a
46:22
Speaker 1: voice heard in the, woods a fleeting glimpse that sparked.
46:26
Speaker 1: Hope each was, Investigated none were. Substantiated at least one,
46:32
Speaker 1: hoax an anonymous call Claiming derek had been taken to Northern,
46:37
Speaker 1: california diverted significant investigative resources before the caller later admitted
46:43
Speaker 1: the story was. Fabricated, uh that's just.
46:46
Speaker 2: The, worst literally the. Worst there is a special place in.
46:52
Speaker 1: Hell false leads like these took a toll on time,
46:56
Speaker 1: funding AND i would argue almost be even more, important
47:01
Speaker 1: like the most important, morale law enforcement and the family
47:07
Speaker 1: and the.
47:07
Speaker 2: COMMUNITY i understand maybe seeing something and it turning out
47:12
Speaker 2: not to be right who it, is.
47:14
Speaker 1: But you actually fabricated. This, yeah that's. Fucked you are
47:19
Speaker 1: sick in the. Head, still investigators pursued every potential, lead
47:25
Speaker 1: knowing that even unlikely information had to be treated, seriously
47:30
Speaker 1: which is in some cases. Unfortunate, yeah because sometimes you
47:37
Speaker 1: go after the wrong one and how could they?
47:40
Speaker 2: Know.
47:41
Speaker 1: Okah by early nineteen ninety, nine The Klamouth County Sheriff's
47:46
Speaker 1: office publicly acknowledged That derek's disappearance was being treated as
47:52
Speaker 1: a potential. Abduction the abrupt end of his, tracks the
47:58
Speaker 1: absence physical, evidence and reports of a suspicious vehicle kept
48:04
Speaker 1: concerns about foul play firmly in play play blood, play
48:10
Speaker 1: but without a body or, evidence and without a, suspect
48:16
Speaker 1: investigators found themselves in a familiar and frustrating. Limbo as
48:22
Speaker 1: months turned into, years the case went. Cold by late
48:28
Speaker 1: nineteen ninety, nine the investigation shifted into what law enforcement
48:34
Speaker 1: termed an open but inactive. Status detectives continued to review,
48:42
Speaker 1: tips reevaluate, suspects and examine new forensic evidence or even
48:49
Speaker 1: techniques periodically as they, emerged but without new, evidence there
48:57
Speaker 1: was little forward, moment, BECAUSE i, mean what the hell
49:02
Speaker 1: else you? Do there's sixty five thousand people there at this,
49:05
Speaker 1: time like.
49:06
Speaker 2: Interview every single one of them for the third.
49:10
Speaker 1: Time even as the public spotlight appeared to dim on the,
49:15
Speaker 1: case The Klamath falls community continued holding periodic. Vigils the
49:21
Speaker 1: forest Around Pelican butte developed a near mythic, status and
49:26
Speaker 1: despite the lengthening, timeline investigators refused to close the.
49:31
Speaker 2: Case every few.
49:33
Speaker 1: Years Klamath County search And rescue returned To Pelican butte
49:39
Speaker 1: with advances and, equipment held the promise of new. Opportunities
49:45
Speaker 1: ground penetrating radar OR gpr for, short WHICH i wish
49:49
Speaker 1: they had put THE gpr first BECAUSE i would have
49:52
Speaker 1: just said, that do you MEAN gpr if you're?
49:55
Speaker 2: Nasty because they think you.
49:58
Speaker 1: Do maybe it as you used to scan embankments suspected
50:03
Speaker 1: provoses it's, crevices.
50:06
Speaker 2: BUT i can NEVER i can't. SAY i can't even
50:09
Speaker 2: say it's. Crevasse, YEAH i don't care if there are
50:12
Speaker 2: two different.
50:12
Speaker 1: Things and areas where melting snow revealed depressions in the,
50:17
Speaker 1: earth no anomalies consistent with human remains or potential burial
50:23
Speaker 1: sites were found as of.
50:26
Speaker 2: Recording they didn't find anyone else, Though i'm like kind
50:29
Speaker 2: of shocked that they didn't stumble on something. ELSE i,
50:33
Speaker 2: Mean i'm glad THEY i mean it's a hard thing
50:36
Speaker 2: because you want them to find the, things but you
50:38
Speaker 2: don't want the. Thing you don't want the things to
50:39
Speaker 2: be there in the first. Place, no. Exactly, Yeah AND i,
50:44
Speaker 2: mean my, god is.
50:46
Speaker 1: It do we not already have enough people to find
50:50
Speaker 1: for them to just like stumble upon the remains of somebody?
50:54
Speaker 2: Else and they're Like Jesus.
50:56
Speaker 1: Christ going on in these Ons AND i like, THAT
51:01
Speaker 1: i could understand there's a little bit. Frustration aerial thermal
51:08
Speaker 1: imaging was also employed first during the initial rescue, phase
51:12
Speaker 1: so this wasn't necessarily like a truly new, Technology but
51:17
Speaker 1: later they used it in targeted surveys looking for unusual
51:22
Speaker 1: heat patterns or terrain. Disturbances so they're just kind of
51:27
Speaker 1: using it in a different way at this juncture in
51:31
Speaker 1: the case because they're looking for different.
51:33
Speaker 2: Things Because i'm like, this they wouldn't be looking for
51:35
Speaker 2: heat necessarily right late in The.
51:41
Speaker 1: YEAH i think even though you're not emitting like the
51:44
Speaker 1: ninety eight point, six, OH i think the heat signature
51:49
Speaker 1: might be different based on like just frozen soil or
51:55
Speaker 1: snow Versus it.
51:58
Speaker 2: Makes me think of like the body, farms where they
52:01
Speaker 2: put bodies in different conditions to see learn from. It,
52:05
Speaker 2: yes a thousand, Percent yeah.
52:08
Speaker 1: ABSOLUTELY i mean whether the topography so many different things
52:14
Speaker 1: like play a role in like what's going to be
52:17
Speaker 1: the thing that helps, us you, know find potential. Remains
52:22
Speaker 1: it's very interesting AND i mean that's a huge part of, why,
52:27
Speaker 1: like you, know the body farms are such a valuable
52:31
Speaker 1: resource to, science.
52:34
Speaker 2: The ones that are done correctly, right and of course
52:38
Speaker 2: again nothing.
52:39
Speaker 1: Emerge each new search brought hope.
52:44
Speaker 2: Followed by a new devastating wave of.
52:47
Speaker 1: HEARTBREAK i don't think any of us can fathom how
52:51
Speaker 1: difficult it would be to just keep reliving this experience, days, weeks, months,
52:59
Speaker 1: years decades. Later, yeah and you want to be.
53:05
Speaker 2: Hopeful it's a hard, balance like you'd want to be
53:09
Speaker 2: hopeful but not too.
53:10
Speaker 1: Hopeful and it's such a dangerous thing like that could
53:13
Speaker 1: just really like the, hurt the.
53:17
Speaker 2: Ups and downs of. That i'm not cut at. THAT
53:21
Speaker 2: i don't think anybody. Is it's like you just you
53:25
Speaker 2: just just do it because you just had. To. Yeah,
53:28
Speaker 2: yeah and hopefully they had people to talk. TO i
53:32
Speaker 2: really really hope that there was some therapy involved and,
53:35
Speaker 2: support and there's definitely a lot of community.
53:40
Speaker 1: SUPPORT i think ultimately, people you, KNOW i, mean there's
53:45
Speaker 1: always going to be some trash pandas in the, mix
53:48
Speaker 1: but people came.
53:50
Speaker 2: Through in a lot of ways.
53:52
Speaker 1: Too decades, Later Derek Anger breton's disappearance has become a
53:58
Speaker 1: deeply haunting Person Fick northwest. Mystery the absence of truth
54:04
Speaker 1: and resolution still. Puzzling investigators have never settled on a single. Explanation,
54:12
Speaker 1: instead there are multiple possibilities that continue to be. Considered
54:17
Speaker 1: there's a lot of theories out, There, yeah but there
54:20
Speaker 1: Are these are kind of for those that have followed
54:24
Speaker 1: the case or that have researched, it.
54:26
Speaker 2: People that are closely.
54:28
Speaker 1: Connected these remain the primary explanations discussed in connection with the,
54:36
Speaker 1: disappearance none of which has ever been confirmed.
54:39
Speaker 2: Or entirely ruled.
54:41
Speaker 1: Out they've never said any one theory is for sure
54:48
Speaker 1: not what.
54:48
Speaker 2: Happened that's crazy because they just have no.
54:52
Speaker 1: Clue some pieces of, evidence you could almost just depending on,
54:58
Speaker 1: perspective you could arrive at multiple contradictory. Theories one possibility
55:07
Speaker 1: is That derek succumbed to the elements which introduces a
55:11
Speaker 1: lot of variables because succumb to the elements when how
55:17
Speaker 1: given the brutal winter, conditions exposure was considered early, on
55:22
Speaker 1: it's very. Possible, however many have questioned this, explanation noting
55:27
Speaker 1: that multiple quite a few snow melt cycles have passed
55:33
Speaker 1: without the recovery of, remains, clothing or any additional personal.
55:38
Speaker 2: Effects you asked about that pretty early.
55:42
Speaker 1: On the terrain itself may have proven treacherous in one
55:46
Speaker 1: form or, another.
55:48
Speaker 2: Particularly for a.
55:49
Speaker 1: Child yet repeated surges Of Pelican butte and other suspected
55:54
Speaker 1: areas have produced no evidence supporting this, explanation so they
56:00
Speaker 1: have explored any sort, of you, know small.
56:05
Speaker 2: Cave systems in the.
56:06
Speaker 1: Area perhaps the most persistent and most troubling possibility is.
56:13
Speaker 1: Abduction the sudden end Of derek's, footprints the reported but
56:18
Speaker 1: unconfirmed snowplow, siding and the unresolved lead involving a suspicious
56:24
Speaker 1: man and a White dodge pickup have kept this theory in.
56:27
Speaker 1: Consideration law enforcement has stated the abduction theory cannot be ruled.
56:34
Speaker 1: Out SO i feel, like doesn't really it doesn't mean
56:37
Speaker 1: a whole, lot because they're just saying we're not ruling it.
56:40
Speaker 1: Out BUT i think it's telling that for certain theories
56:45
Speaker 1: they specifically address like we're not ruling this. Out, YEAH
56:50
Speaker 1: i think that says. Something in a lot of. Cases
56:53
Speaker 1: as of the most recent public, statements the case remains.
56:58
Speaker 1: Open detective continue to review tips as they come in
57:03
Speaker 1: and periodically re examine the evidence using modern investigative. Tools
57:09
Speaker 1: derek's disappearance is also compared against unidentified remains when. Appropriate
57:17
Speaker 1: despite decades of, effort no explanation has yet answered the
57:21
Speaker 1: question of what happened On pelicanpute that day In december
57:26
Speaker 1: of nineteen ninety. Eight some, cases and if you're asking,
57:31
Speaker 1: me far too, many fade quietly into archival. Boxes derek's
57:38
Speaker 1: disappearance has remained alive in the public consciousness because it
57:43
Speaker 1: had all the elements of a nightmare that felt too,
57:47
Speaker 1: real a child vanishing in, seconds a trail ending abruptly
57:52
Speaker 1: in untouched, snow and a wilderness that seemed to swallow.
57:58
Speaker 1: Evidence Hall rick's disappearance remains one Of oregon's most confounding
58:05
Speaker 1: missing child. Mysteries bursts of media attention over the years
58:09
Speaker 1: have carried two side. Effects renewed public, interest often generating
58:15
Speaker 1: fresh but ultimately unproductive tips to this, point as well
58:20
Speaker 1: as emotional re traumatization for the. Family for, investigators the
58:28
Speaker 1: exposure proved to be both a blessing and a. Curse
58:33
Speaker 1: fresh eyes sometimes means fresh, perspectives but they can also
58:39
Speaker 1: mean sifting through, noise, speculation and occasionally cruel or outlandish.
58:47
Speaker 1: Theories derek's case is frequently cited in search and rescue
58:52
Speaker 1: training discussions and cold case. Retrospectives it's one of many
58:57
Speaker 1: such cases serve as a cautionary tale of how quickly
59:00
Speaker 1: a missing person scenario can present unique or unexpected, variables
59:07
Speaker 1: evolved throughout, investigation and ultimately turn. Cold derek's disappearance is
59:15
Speaker 1: one of the most heart wrenching unsolved cases that lingers
59:19
Speaker 1: at the, crossroads the possibilities ranging wildly between wilderness accident
59:26
Speaker 1: or criminal, abduction refusing to settle neatly into either. Category
59:32
Speaker 1: the physical environment offers one, explanation the behavioral evidence seemingly
59:39
Speaker 1: points toward. Another neither is fully, satisfying yet both remain.
59:45
Speaker 1: Possible both seem, incomplete and WHEN i say, BOTH i
59:49
Speaker 1: mean it's not like there's only two, theories, unfortunately.
59:54
Speaker 2: But two that seem like the most, likely.
59:58
Speaker 1: But one in disputable fact remains an eight year old
1:00:03
Speaker 1: boy vanished from An oregon, mountainside and in the decades,
1:00:07
Speaker 1: since not a single definitive trace has ever been. Found
1:00:13
Speaker 1: in The Pacific, northwest where forrests hold their stories, Close
1:00:19
Speaker 1: derek's absence remains one of the, deepest coldest, mysteries a
1:00:24
Speaker 1: lingering ache for his family and friends and their, community
1:00:29
Speaker 1: a question without, answer and for those who still follow the,
1:00:33
Speaker 1: case one hope endures that someday someone will, speak or
1:00:39
Speaker 1: something will be, found and the silence that Swallowed Pelican
1:00:43
Speaker 1: butte on That december afternoon will finally mercifully break until
1:00:49
Speaker 1: the Day derek's case is. Solved this is a call to.
1:00:52
Speaker 1: REMEMBER i don't know if they have kept them all these, years,
1:01:00
Speaker 1: yes BUT i remember reading an interview with his, mother
1:01:07
Speaker 1: and just off the top of my, head just from pure,
1:01:11
Speaker 1: RECOLLECTION i think this was maybe in two thousand and,
1:01:15
Speaker 1: four and at the time she told the interviewer that.
1:01:20
Speaker 2: They still have His christmas presence.
1:01:24
Speaker 1: And they've just they have an Artificial christmas tree that
1:01:30
Speaker 1: they had put up that. YEAR i don't know if
1:01:34
Speaker 1: they've kept the tree up the whole time or if
1:01:36
Speaker 1: they've just kept the. Presence but she talked about how
1:01:41
Speaker 1: now the wrapping is starting to get old and it's
1:01:47
Speaker 1: like starting to show signs of where because it's. Old,
1:01:52
Speaker 1: yeah and you, know she sort of talked about how
1:01:56
Speaker 1: they feel and you, know more specific about you, know
1:02:01
Speaker 1: how she feels and what she. Hopes AND i think
1:02:04
Speaker 1: the fact that she's talking about his unopened presence from
1:02:10
Speaker 1: That CHRISTMAS i think, it you, know sort of speaks
1:02:14
Speaker 1: to what her hope has always been that someday he
1:02:17
Speaker 1: will walk back through that. Door and they've they've the
1:02:23
Speaker 1: family is given somewhat, limited but they've given interviews to
1:02:29
Speaker 1: that effect that you, know please if if you're out,
1:02:33
Speaker 1: there if you have, him you, know different iterations of
1:02:39
Speaker 1: that over the.
1:02:40
Speaker 2: Years we just we just wanted him to come. Home
1:02:45
Speaker 2: that like broke my heart when you said that they
1:02:48
Speaker 2: have The christmas present. Still, yeah but, like, yeah of
1:02:53
Speaker 2: course they. Do it's just too.
1:02:55
Speaker 1: Much but it's also the kind of thing THAT i
1:02:57
Speaker 1: feel like it tugs people's heart strings enough to, like
1:03:04
Speaker 1: if you hear about this case and maybe you you,
1:03:08
Speaker 1: know somehow know, anything that's the detail that does it for.
1:03:14
Speaker 2: You, yeah, Really, ROW i can't imagine, too Like christmas
1:03:18
Speaker 2: for them now is, Forever, yeah like a reminder of
1:03:23
Speaker 2: what they don't. Have it's, like we don't want to
1:03:27
Speaker 2: talk about sad stuff On, christmas but like a lot
1:03:30
Speaker 2: of people have sad memories On. Christmas and it's just
1:03:34
Speaker 2: it is how it, is what it, Is, like it
1:03:36
Speaker 2: can't always be happy.
1:03:38
Speaker 1: Three weeks Before christmas, essentially like how does that not
1:03:43
Speaker 1: change that holiday for?
1:03:45
Speaker 2: You for?
1:03:47
Speaker 1: Ever And i'm sure at some point as an extended
1:03:51
Speaker 1: family in, particular it's, like you, know you have to
1:03:54
Speaker 1: find ways to cope and you want to still be
1:03:58
Speaker 1: able to have traditions and you, know things that are
1:04:02
Speaker 1: meaningful about the day for. You but, YEAH i mean
1:04:08
Speaker 1: it'll never be the. Same how could it?
1:04:10
Speaker 2: Be, wow we're not going to do the tarot video
1:04:15
Speaker 2: for the altar because we're. Lazy, apologies It's. Christmas we're
1:04:20
Speaker 2: doing what we. Want she's shuffling over.
1:04:22
Speaker 1: There if you don't know me by now and you
1:04:24
Speaker 1: don't trust, me, okay working really hard to shuffle these.
1:04:29
Speaker 2: Cards she will take a video to post, though and us,
1:04:35
Speaker 2: like just you make your pet that uns like you
1:04:40
Speaker 2: keep fingering this side and it feels like it's over
1:04:42
Speaker 2: there over, Here yeah, yeah six of. Wanes, okay it's
1:04:48
Speaker 2: a bunch of beds. Flying, well you know HOW i
1:04:51
Speaker 2: feel about, birds the winged. Fucks that's. Right it kind of,
1:04:56
Speaker 2: LIKE i, KNOW i think it's clouds under, them but
1:04:58
Speaker 2: it could be. Snow it's so. FUNNY i was, thinking like,
1:05:01
Speaker 2: humhm that could go really either. Way and the wands on, Top,
1:05:06
Speaker 2: okay this is like a, stretch but like the ones
1:05:08
Speaker 2: on top look like.
1:05:09
Speaker 1: Trees they, do because it's like almost like a chevron. Pattern, yeah, yeah,
1:05:14
Speaker 1: okay six of. Ones our keywords are, victory, success, recognition and.
1:05:22
Speaker 2: SATISFACTION i got none of, THAT i. KNOW i mean
1:05:27
Speaker 2: maybe this is like what's like the family wanted out of.
1:05:32
Speaker 1: It maybe maybe it's yet to. Come i'm going to speak.
1:05:36
Speaker 1: Hopefully the six of ones is the victory. Card you face,
1:05:41
Speaker 1: challenges won the, fight and deserve the accolades you. Receive
1:05:47
Speaker 1: success and good fortune are. YOURS i think this card
1:05:52
Speaker 1: reads as ultimately like hopeful in the way THAT i
1:05:55
Speaker 1: want to interpret.
1:05:56
Speaker 2: It but it definitely made me think of like what
1:05:59
Speaker 2: you said about the family wanting to be, Hopeful and
1:06:01
Speaker 2: THEN i got this sense of like the cards said
1:06:06
Speaker 2: that this case is really sad and It's christmas time
1:06:10
Speaker 2: and they wanted to give everyone a really nice. Card
1:06:14
Speaker 2: maybe it sounds, insane but that's what my brain.
1:06:17
Speaker 1: Said maybe the six of ones promises a time of
1:06:22
Speaker 1: happiness and. Fulfillment you've marshaled your. Energies that's. Interesting that
1:06:29
Speaker 1: feels like a phrase that you would use for, somebody
1:06:33
Speaker 1: like overcoming the elements in a.
1:06:37
Speaker 2: WAY i don't.
1:06:39
Speaker 1: Huh i'm not suggesting that's what's happened in this, case
1:06:44
Speaker 1: BUT i feel like the imagery like it's there for.
1:06:47
Speaker 1: Me that's WHY i really want to know if he
1:06:50
Speaker 1: freaking wrote his name on things out, there because that
1:06:52
Speaker 1: would mean someone. ELSE i mean that not conclusively that
1:06:55
Speaker 1: something didn't take, him but, right but it does sort of,
1:07:00
Speaker 1: GOSH i, mean it's just so many things that, like
1:07:02
Speaker 1: if we had a better, idea you, know maybe that
1:07:06
Speaker 1: changes the timeline and.
1:07:08
Speaker 2: Sort of some of the details that we thought, mattered
1:07:10
Speaker 2: maybe they.
1:07:11
Speaker 1: Don't maybe the person who was driving around in a
1:07:15
Speaker 1: white creepy truck being a creep creeping, around maybe that
1:07:19
Speaker 1: guy means.
1:07:20
Speaker 2: Nothing maybe he's. Everything maybe maybe he carved his name
1:07:25
Speaker 2: into a tree with that knife and broke it you.
1:07:27
Speaker 1: Know WHAT i, Mean, like, YEAH i mean like, Before,
1:07:30
Speaker 1: yeah you've marshaled your energies during times of struggle and overcome.
1:07:36
Speaker 1: Obstacles now you're on top and can expect recognition and.
1:07:41
Speaker 1: Rewards you feel good about yourself and your. Accomplishments sometimes
1:07:47
Speaker 1: this card shows recovery dot dot dot for dramatic effect
1:07:54
Speaker 1: from an illness or. Setback but, recovery that's that specific.
1:07:59
Speaker 2: Word. Yeah obviously we talked about that balance of being
1:08:04
Speaker 2: hopeful and not being too, hopeful and it just makes
1:08:07
Speaker 2: me feel like they're, LIKE i want them to find.
1:08:09
Speaker 2: Something the Thoth.
1:08:11
Speaker 1: Tara labels the sixth Of wand's. Victory the Writer Wait
1:08:17
Speaker 1: smith deck shows a triumphant horseman riding at the head
1:08:21
Speaker 1: of a jubilant. Procession Sellador, dolly, however takes a different
1:08:27
Speaker 1: approach in his. Deck his horseman rides, alone signifying an
1:08:33
Speaker 1: inner conquest rather than besting an opponent in the outer.
1:08:38
Speaker 1: WORLD i feel like my read on that was IMMEDIATELY
1:08:44
Speaker 1: i CAN'T i can't even begin to imagine what this
1:08:50
Speaker 1: family has been, through but the fact that they have
1:08:53
Speaker 1: managed to just find anything resembling hope and strength in
1:09:00
Speaker 1: this at, least you, know in what they're presenting to
1:09:04
Speaker 1: the outside.
1:09:05
Speaker 2: WORLD i feel like it's.
1:09:08
Speaker 1: Like this inner battle and for, them like finding that,
1:09:14
Speaker 1: peace whatever that looks, like regardless of you, know the
1:09:19
Speaker 1: ultimate outcome in their lifetimes versus whatever we might think
1:09:25
Speaker 1: of as being like the, justice you, know or or
1:09:29
Speaker 1: the resolution in this, lifetime but like.
1:09:32
Speaker 2: Finding a way to just to just. Cope AND i,
1:09:37
Speaker 2: think you, know.
1:09:39
Speaker 1: Oftentimes like And i've caught myself wanting to say move, on,
1:09:45
Speaker 1: Right AND i think that's it's such a misnomer because
1:09:49
Speaker 1: especially when when it's, unsolved it's, Like i'm, sorry how
1:09:52
Speaker 1: do you move on from something that's? Unsolved and this
1:09:56
Speaker 1: is the person that you care, ABOUT i think all
1:10:00
Speaker 1: you're doing is. Coping AND i think that's the thing
1:10:03
Speaker 1: THAT'S i think in a lot of these, CONVERSATIONS i
1:10:06
Speaker 1: feel like there's so much about the language that we
1:10:10
Speaker 1: use around loss and especially in cases like, this that it's,
1:10:14
Speaker 1: LIKE i CAN'T i can't fathom what it looks like
1:10:18
Speaker 1: to move.
1:10:18
Speaker 2: On, YEAH i think you are simply.
1:10:22
Speaker 1: Coping And i'm sure there are people that do just
1:10:25
Speaker 1: DECIDE i have to sort of pick up my life
1:10:30
Speaker 1: whatever that looks, like AND i have to move on
1:10:35
Speaker 1: and for some people that's you, know maybe just ultimately self,
1:10:39
Speaker 1: preservation but coping feels like the more accurate.
1:10:45
Speaker 2: WORD i feel like moving through is like moving on
1:10:49
Speaker 2: is not what it, is just moving through it like
1:10:52
Speaker 2: BECAUSE i don't think you're getting up every, day, yeah
1:10:54
Speaker 2: and just doing what you need to. Do and that's
1:10:56
Speaker 2: not to say you can't have like joy and happiness
1:10:59
Speaker 2: in your life still and though you've gone through something,
1:11:01
Speaker 2: tragic but it's not a, breakup, right like moving on like.
1:11:06
Speaker 1: THAT i just feel like the like the way that
1:11:10
Speaker 1: we interpret that, language it's so different than WHAT i
1:11:14
Speaker 1: would picture in this. Case AND i understand, that like some,
1:11:19
Speaker 1: terms you, know we use them in different, applications and
1:11:24
Speaker 1: it can be all about tone and it can be
1:11:26
Speaker 1: all about you know, what.
1:11:30
Speaker 2: What else are we? Saying what other resources are we offering?
1:11:34
Speaker 1: People BUT i just don't THINK i don't think THAT'S
1:11:39
Speaker 1: i don't think that's the.
1:11:40
Speaker 2: Thing, YEAH i don't. Know maybe in some cases.
1:11:44
Speaker 1: And I'm I'm i'm realizing in this, Moment i've probably
1:11:49
Speaker 1: said moving on in connection to another, case but this
1:11:53
Speaker 1: it just like the language of that just feels so
1:11:57
Speaker 1: specifically not, It.
1:12:00
Speaker 2: Yeah not at all not when you have your yeah
1:12:03
Speaker 2: Sounds christmas presents still, Yeah and maybe maybe that's all it.
1:12:07
Speaker 1: Is BUT i just feel like sometimes you get a
1:12:10
Speaker 1: sense of you just get a.
1:12:12
Speaker 2: FEELING i get a. FEELING i want that little baby
1:12:15
Speaker 2: book right now SO i could see what kind of birdss.
1:12:17
Speaker 2: Are so they're sandhill. Cranes she wasn't always the, leader
1:12:22
Speaker 2: but she still felt the way of, responsibility knowing her
1:12:25
Speaker 2: turn would. Come when she took the, front she would
1:12:28
Speaker 2: spread her wings, wide shaping the air to ease the
1:12:31
Speaker 2: passage of the cranes behind. Her she would read the,
1:12:35
Speaker 2: winds finding updrafts and tailwinds that would carry them higher
1:12:40
Speaker 2: and further despite their. Fatigue she would scan the, ground
1:12:44
Speaker 2: seeking the safety and restoration of a, hidden rich pond
1:12:48
Speaker 2: with frogs and. Snails she would shepherd the formation of
1:12:51
Speaker 2: cranes to their, destination to warm wetland where they would
1:12:56
Speaker 2: survive the. Winter she would guide them and they would. Succeed,
1:13:01
Speaker 2: wow she's literally talking about someone like guiding someone or
1:13:05
Speaker 2: guiding you, know they're heard through the winter to like.
1:13:08
Speaker 2: Survive that's kind of. Wow interesting that talks About, yeah
1:13:12
Speaker 2: the winter. There, Yeah AND i think it was scanning
1:13:17
Speaker 2: like scanning the ground remind me of like.
1:13:20
Speaker 1: The health and it described AND i forget what the
1:13:24
Speaker 1: word was that was, used but it was almost like
1:13:26
Speaker 1: scanning like a.
1:13:27
Speaker 2: Crevasse AND i was, like, OH i know who knew
1:13:32
Speaker 2: the little book pulled it out for us. Today, yeah
1:13:35
Speaker 2: she would scan the ground seeking the safety and restoration
1:13:38
Speaker 2: of a hidden rich. Pond hidden, hidden, sorry a hidden
1:13:42
Speaker 2: pond rich with frogs and stalelshen rich. Pond that would
1:13:45
Speaker 2: be rich. Pond but it's like.
1:13:48
Speaker 1: Hidden but like same thing, though it's like you, know
1:13:51
Speaker 1: you hit pay, dirt like searching for things in the air.
1:13:55
Speaker 2: Nuts that's. WILD i love. THAT i love when those
1:13:58
Speaker 2: kind of like have like so obviously the full interpretation
1:14:02
Speaker 2: doesn't really totally, fit BUT i think we talked about
1:14:04
Speaker 2: how we want it wanted to be on the more positive,
1:14:07
Speaker 2: side and it kind of. Fit, yeah but then it
1:14:09
Speaker 2: like talking about the.
1:14:09
Speaker 1: Winters, yeah BUT i feel like the vibe is kind
1:14:13
Speaker 1: of still the. SAME i feel like it's this overwhelmingly
1:14:17
Speaker 1: like kind OF i DON'T i, mean.
1:14:19
Speaker 2: Does it just feel to you at?
1:14:21
Speaker 1: All like it's kind of like don't give, Up LIKE
1:14:26
Speaker 1: i don't, KNOW i want to believe that we are
1:14:30
Speaker 1: going to get some. SOMETHING i feel, like is this
1:14:34
Speaker 1: answered in our? Lifetime LIKE i. Hope so maybe that's
1:14:38
Speaker 1: just me being, hopeful BUT i.
1:14:41
Speaker 2: Always want to think that with all the unsolved, ones
1:14:43
Speaker 2: all the unsolved, ones you, know we've grown up, WITH
1:14:46
Speaker 2: i always want to think that someday something will come. Out. Yeah,
1:14:50
Speaker 2: Well Merry, Christmas Happy, hollidays you, Guys Just Christmas. Day
1:14:56
Speaker 2: if you don't, CELEBRATE i hope you're enjoying a nice
1:15:00
Speaker 2: free day off because unless you're. Working and then if you're,
1:15:03
Speaker 2: working immensely appreciate your working and they better be paying
1:15:08
Speaker 2: you time and a. Half. BIBE i used to Wear.
1:15:11
Speaker 2: CHRISTMASES i get. It, YEAH i have a creepy as.
1:15:14
Speaker 1: Day we'll see you On magnet say it'll Be New Year's.
1:15:20
Speaker 2: Day, Yeah New Year's. Day should we just cancel the
1:15:24
Speaker 2: pod because it's like nurse your hangover. Baby, yeah let's
1:15:27
Speaker 2: let's preemptively say we're not going to release the podcast that.
1:15:30
Speaker 2: Day have a Great New Year's. Day we're taking the
1:15:34
Speaker 2: fucking day. Off. Bitches she's on The nottay list For
1:15:42
Speaker 2: lion To. US i thought i'd save san to the
1:15:46
Speaker 2: trap