Latest / Beautifully Complex / 348: Good Sleep for Neurodivergent Kids, with Melisa Moore, Ph.D.

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348: Good Sleep for Neurodivergent Kids, with Melisa Moore, Ph.D. · Beautifully Complex

• 0:01
  Speaker 1: We all know the ideals in terms of lots of
• 0:04
  Speaker 1: areas of health. We know we're supposed to reapply sunscreen
• 0:07
  Speaker 1: every two hours. You know we're supposed to bloss our
• 0:10
  Speaker 1: teeth every day. That's not the problem. The problem is
• 0:13
  Speaker 1: fitting it in to the complexity of our real lives.
• 0:17
  Speaker 2: And the same is true with sleep.
• 0:18
  Speaker 1: We have to balance the habits that are ideal with
• 0:23
  Speaker 1: the complexities of our lives.
• 0:27
  Speaker 3: Welcome to Beautifully Complex, where we unpack what it really
• 0:30
  Speaker 3: means to parent neurodivergent kids with dignity and clarity. I'm
• 0:34
  Speaker 3: Penny Williams, and I know firsthand how tough and transformative
• 0:39
  Speaker 3: this journey can be. Let's dive in and discover how
• 0:42
  Speaker 3: to raise regulated, resilient, beautifully complex kids together. Oh and
• 0:47
  Speaker 3: if you want more support, join our free community at
• 0:51
  Speaker 3: hub dot beautifully complex dot life. Welcome back, parents and
• 0:58
  Speaker 3: educators and all of those lovely, caring adults that are
• 1:02
  Speaker 3: in the lives of nerdivergent kids. I am so thankful
• 1:06
  Speaker 3: that you're here and listening. Today. I have with me
• 1:10
  Speaker 3: doctor Melissa Moore, and we are going to talk about
• 1:12
  Speaker 3: something that many many of our nerd verse families find
• 1:17
  Speaker 3: so confounding and frustrating, and that is sleep and sleep struggles.
• 1:23
  Speaker 3: My own kid really struggled with sleep better now as
• 1:27
  Speaker 3: a young adult, but still sometimes can become problematic. So
• 1:33
  Speaker 3: I'm looking so forward to sharing your insights and your
• 1:38
  Speaker 3: strategies with everyone. Will you start though, by letting everybody
• 1:41
  Speaker 3: know who you are and what you do?
• 1:43
  Speaker 2: Sure?
• 1:44
  Speaker 1: Thanks for having me. I'm a clinical psychologist and my
• 1:48
  Speaker 1: passion really is helping families be the best rested that
• 1:53
  Speaker 1: they can possibly be. I've been doing this for two decades,
• 1:58
  Speaker 1: and i was doing it for ten years before I
• 2:00
  Speaker 1: ever had my kids, one of whom is neurodivergent and
• 2:04
  Speaker 1: has sleep problems. So I'm really seeing it from both sides,
• 2:11
  Speaker 1: and I know how difficult and important sleep can be
• 2:17
  Speaker 1: for so many families, including my own.
• 2:19
  Speaker 3: Yeah, can we start by really talking about why neurodivergent
• 2:25
  Speaker 3: individuals have more struggles with sleep and maybe what that
• 2:29
  Speaker 3: looks like.
• 2:30
  Speaker 1: Sure, there are a lot of reasons, and I just
• 2:33
  Speaker 1: want to start by saying bad parenting or lazy kids
• 2:38
  Speaker 1: are not in that list, but there are biological reasons.
• 2:43
  Speaker 1: So neurodiverse kids are wired a little bit differently, and
• 2:48
  Speaker 1: that's part of what makes them so wonderfully neurodiverse. But
• 2:52
  Speaker 1: whatever that wiring is can also lead to differences in sleep,
• 2:58
  Speaker 1: So there's kind of the overall bylogy. The second thing
• 3:01
  Speaker 1: is circadian rhythm. So we all have the clock in
• 3:04
  Speaker 1: our brain that tells us when we should be sleeping,
• 3:06
  Speaker 1: when we should be awake, and research really shows us
• 3:09
  Speaker 1: that in kids with ADHD in particular, that circadian rhythm
• 3:13
  Speaker 1: can be pushed a little bit later, and in kids
• 3:16
  Speaker 1: with autism people with autism, that circadian rhythm can be
• 3:20
  Speaker 1: not so consistent, and so that's another reason. The third
• 3:24
  Speaker 1: reason is really comorbid things that ride along sidecar with neurodiversity,
• 3:30
  Speaker 1: So things like anxiety, depression, medical conditions like reflux, asthma,
• 3:37
  Speaker 1: those things get in the way of sleep as well.
• 3:40
  Speaker 1: And then the last thing is sleep disorders. So there
• 3:43
  Speaker 1: are specific sleep disorders that are more common in certain conditions.
• 3:48
  Speaker 1: So there's something called restless leg syndrome or periodic limb
• 3:52
  Speaker 1: movement disorder. Those are two disorders of restless sleep we
• 3:56
  Speaker 1: call them, but they're more common in neurodiverse kids. And
• 4:00
  Speaker 1: the thing is with a lot of this, we don't
• 4:02
  Speaker 1: know why.
• 4:03
  Speaker 3: It just is yeah, and it's so interesting. I'm glad
• 4:07
  Speaker 3: you brought up the fact that there's always a lot
• 4:09
  Speaker 3: of comorbidities. Like I would refer to my son as
• 4:13
  Speaker 3: an alphabet soup, right, he has all the different like
• 4:16
  Speaker 3: acronyms and things, And there's so many things that come
• 4:19
  Speaker 3: with this nerdivergence a lot of times, and so I
• 4:23
  Speaker 3: find it fascinating that sleep disorders like restless lag are
• 4:27
  Speaker 3: also more common. I have restless lag myself, so I
• 4:30
  Speaker 3: understand what that's like. And I find it interesting too
• 4:33
  Speaker 3: that like for ADHD, thiscadian rhythm is later, whereas with
• 4:38
  Speaker 3: autism it might be inconsistent. And I hadn't ever heard
• 4:41
  Speaker 3: that before. So that's in all the years I've been
• 4:44
  Speaker 3: obsessed with nerdivergence and helping my own family and my
• 4:48
  Speaker 3: own kids, I haven't heard that. So I'm so glad
• 4:51
  Speaker 3: that you're sharing it. Talk to us a little bit
• 4:53
  Speaker 3: about balancing. You say, balance the ideal with the families real,
• 4:59
  Speaker 3: and I I love that because that should be our
• 5:02
  Speaker 3: mantra for neurodiversent parenting really, but like, what does that
• 5:06
  Speaker 3: mean as far as sleep and how do we get there?
• 5:12
  Speaker 2: Great question?
• 5:14
  Speaker 1: You know, we all know the ideals in terms of
• 5:17
  Speaker 1: lots of areas of health. We know we're supposed to
• 5:20
  Speaker 1: reapply sunscreen every two hours, we know we're supposed to
• 5:23
  Speaker 1: floss our teeth every day.
• 5:24
  Speaker 2: That's not the problem.
• 5:25
  Speaker 1: The problem is fitting it in to the complexity of
• 5:29
  Speaker 1: our real lives.
• 5:31
  Speaker 2: And the same is true with sleep.
• 5:33
  Speaker 1: We have to balance the habits that are ideal with
• 5:39
  Speaker 1: again the complexities of our lives, and so striving for
• 5:44
  Speaker 1: perfection in that way is not always going to be helpful.
• 5:48
  Speaker 1: And a lot of the recommendations that are out there
• 5:51
  Speaker 1: for sleep are based on the ideal. So finding out
• 5:56
  Speaker 1: really what are the core things that we're looking at,
• 5:59
  Speaker 1: and how can we adapt those things for our own
• 6:02
  Speaker 1: kids and our own families. I like to really think
• 6:06
  Speaker 1: of things as good, better, best, especially when I work
• 6:09
  Speaker 1: with teenagers.
• 6:10
  Speaker 2: But like, if you can't.
• 6:12
  Speaker 1: Achieve perfection, it's okay, just take a little step in
• 6:16
  Speaker 1: the right direction, and that can be really helpful too.
• 6:20
  Speaker 3: We're all about taking small steps here. That is the
• 6:23
  Speaker 3: way that we make change without exactly kind of those
• 6:26
  Speaker 3: crazy you pie in the sky goals. You know, we've
• 6:29
  Speaker 3: got to break it down, break it down to make
• 6:31
  Speaker 3: it doable. Yeah, you talk about some core ideas or
• 6:36
  Speaker 3: core pieces of good sleep. Can you share some of
• 6:41
  Speaker 3: those with us?
• 6:43
  Speaker 1: Sure sleep hygiene or sleep habits, I'm sure everybody has
• 6:47
  Speaker 1: heard about and that is really important, and I'll talk
• 6:51
  Speaker 1: about that. It's important to start there. It's a good foundation.
• 6:55
  Speaker 1: Oftentimes it's not enough, but for example, start with having
• 6:59
  Speaker 1: AI and a bedtime routine. A bedtime routine really, even
• 7:04
  Speaker 1: though it might not seem like it is critical in
• 7:07
  Speaker 1: helping especially neurodivergent kids wind down. So that's those are
• 7:12
  Speaker 1: two things, a bedtime and a bedtime routine. I would
• 7:15
  Speaker 1: start there. There are two parts to kind of falling asleep.
• 7:19
  Speaker 1: There's the calming down part, and then there's the eyes
• 7:22
  Speaker 1: closed actually falling off into sleep part and the calming
• 7:27
  Speaker 1: down part. I think we can be a little bit
• 7:29
  Speaker 1: flexible on and individualized. So find out what works to
• 7:34
  Speaker 1: calm your child down, and don't worry what the ideal
• 7:37
  Speaker 1: is or what you've been told. Other elements of sleep
• 7:41
  Speaker 1: hygiene have been studied honestly in shockingly specific detail. So
• 7:48
  Speaker 1: for adults, we know the ideal temperature of the room
• 7:51
  Speaker 1: for sleep is sixty eight degrees.
• 7:54
  Speaker 2: For kids, it's.
• 7:55
  Speaker 1: Generally more around seventy but again, some of our kids
• 7:58
  Speaker 1: are really sensitive to temperature. They're too hot, they're too cold.
• 8:02
  Speaker 1: The room should be quiet. I'm very pro sound machine
• 8:07
  Speaker 1: or even like a noisy fan, something to block out
• 8:10
  Speaker 1: those noises which can be so disruptive, especially for neurodiverse kids.
• 8:16
  Speaker 1: And another thing that we don't think about a lot
• 8:20
  Speaker 1: is communicating the expectations around sleep. When I ask families
• 8:25
  Speaker 1: about bedtime and bedtime routines, a lot of times they're life,
• 8:27
  Speaker 1: then we get ready for bed and go to bed.
• 8:29
  Speaker 1: That involves so many things. And when you think about
• 8:33
  Speaker 1: it from the perspective of a neurodiverse kid, you know,
• 8:36
  Speaker 1: they're stopping probably something that they want to do, for
• 8:39
  Speaker 1: something they don't want to do. The bedtime routine from
• 8:44
  Speaker 1: a sensory perspective, can just be fraught with difficult things
• 8:48
  Speaker 1: brushing teeth, you know, those hygiene things, And so we're
• 8:53
  Speaker 1: really trying to find out what is the best thing
• 8:58
  Speaker 1: to help our kids really calm down. But I would
• 9:02
  Speaker 1: start with the bedtime and the bedtime routine and go
• 9:06
  Speaker 1: from there.
• 9:07
  Speaker 3: Yeah, And really I just want to reiterate the idea
• 9:11
  Speaker 3: that we need to have an open mind about what
• 9:13
  Speaker 3: might calm down our kids, yeah, because for a lot
• 9:16
  Speaker 3: of them, it's more activity, it's more sensory input, right,
• 9:20
  Speaker 3: and so that can be confusing for adults who don't
• 9:25
  Speaker 3: share that sensory profile. But it's exactly important.
• 9:29
  Speaker 1: And I think one area where I sometimes feel like lately,
• 9:33
  Speaker 1: I'm going to be struck by lightning if I talk
• 9:35
  Speaker 1: about it. You know, in general, I don't recommend electronics.
• 9:39
  Speaker 1: That's not something that I think is helpful for most kids. However,
• 9:44
  Speaker 1: the latest research really shows that there are some nuances there,
• 9:48
  Speaker 1: and for some kids that really have trouble winding down,
• 9:53
  Speaker 1: slowing down their minds, calming down certain shows or whatever
• 9:59
  Speaker 1: it is, might actually help them fall asleep faster because
• 10:02
  Speaker 1: it helps distract them enough to be able to allow
• 10:06
  Speaker 1: sleep to arrive.
• 10:08
  Speaker 3: I'm so glad you brought that up because that's my kid,
• 10:10
  Speaker 3: and it took a really long time to be okay
• 10:12
  Speaker 3: with like YouTube videos playing in the background while he
• 10:15
  Speaker 3: was going to sleep. It seemed like it was a
• 10:18
  Speaker 3: big parenting fail. You know, everybody was going to say
• 10:20
  Speaker 3: that was the worst thing to do. But it works,
• 10:24
  Speaker 3: and he's twenty three now and he still does it
• 10:26
  Speaker 3: because it works for him, and we have. I mean,
• 10:29
  Speaker 3: he goes to sleep so so much faster that way.
• 10:32
  Speaker 3: And yeah, so that open mind is so key to
• 10:37
  Speaker 3: what that really looks like.
• 10:38
  Speaker 1: I would say, don't have guilt about it, Like, don't
• 10:41
  Speaker 1: have guilt about the things that help your child calm down.
• 10:45
  Speaker 2: They are what they are.
• 10:45
  Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, just be open to it and accepting. Can
• 10:49
  Speaker 3: we talk about you say, to to tell our kids
• 10:54
  Speaker 3: wait for sleep instead of try to go to sleep,
• 10:59
  Speaker 3: which like a really great idea. Actually, so can you
• 11:04
  Speaker 3: tell us more about that? Why does that language even matter?
• 11:09
  Speaker 1: There is literally nothing that we can do to force
• 11:12
  Speaker 1: ourselves to fall asleep, except in us the ease, which
• 11:15
  Speaker 1: hopefully you know we don't have at our houses, but
• 11:19
  Speaker 1: we can't force it, and so to try to go
• 11:22
  Speaker 1: to sleep kind of adds extra pressure. And all we
• 11:25
  Speaker 1: really can do is set up the right conditions and
• 11:28
  Speaker 1: wait wait for sleep to arrive. And when we use
• 11:31
  Speaker 1: that language, it's not only more accurate, but I feel
• 11:34
  Speaker 1: like it takes a little bit of the pressure off.
• 11:36
  Speaker 1: And you know, it's normal to take ten, twenty thirty,
• 11:41
  Speaker 1: sometimes even forty minutes to fall asleep. If you fall
• 11:44
  Speaker 1: asleep when your head hits the pillow, you're really too
• 11:47
  Speaker 1: sleep deprived, and so during that time that you're waiting
• 11:51
  Speaker 1: for sleep again, that time is normal. We want to
• 11:54
  Speaker 1: look at things that might be getting in the way,
• 11:57
  Speaker 1: so like anxious thoughts, you know, inventing the next like
• 12:03
  Speaker 1: international space station, things that our kids are thinking about
• 12:07
  Speaker 1: and that are getting in the way of sleep. But
• 12:09
  Speaker 1: when we use the language wait for sleep again, I
• 12:14
  Speaker 1: just think that's more accurate and sets up an expectation
• 12:17
  Speaker 1: that is what's going on.
• 12:21
  Speaker 3: Reducing pressure is so key for our kids because there's
• 12:24
  Speaker 3: so much pressure day to day, more so for them
• 12:27
  Speaker 3: than I think a lot of neurotypical kids, and a
• 12:30
  Speaker 3: lot of pressure is justsregulating. Yeah, it would be really
• 12:34
  Speaker 3: hard to fall asleep if you're justsregulated, if you're worried,
• 12:37
  Speaker 3: if you're feeling like you know you're you're missing something,
• 12:41
  Speaker 3: you're not doing something right because it takes you so
• 12:43
  Speaker 3: long to fall asleep, and mom and dad get so frustrated,
• 12:46
  Speaker 3: you know, you start blaming yourself. None of that's helpful
• 12:49
  Speaker 3: for sleep or anything else, right, So I love this
• 12:52
  Speaker 3: idea of waiting for sleep and being okay with waiting.
• 12:56
  Speaker 3: I struggle with falling asleep myself it takes me really
• 12:59
  Speaker 3: long on time, and so the more I get upset
• 13:03
  Speaker 3: about not going to sleep, like if I have something
• 13:06
  Speaker 3: early in the morning or you know, I really want
• 13:08
  Speaker 3: to be rested, I get really upset. And the more
• 13:10
  Speaker 3: upset I get, the longer it takes me to fallow estate.
• 13:13
  Speaker 3: And I've had to really drain myself to be like,
• 13:16
  Speaker 3: it is what it is. It comes when it comes.
• 13:19
  Speaker 2: You know.
• 13:19
  Speaker 1: The irony is the harder you try, the less likely
• 13:23
  Speaker 1: it is to happen. Yeah, yeah, you know, we want
• 13:26
  Speaker 1: that effort to not be part of falling asleep if
• 13:30
  Speaker 1: it's at all possible.
• 13:31
  Speaker 3: You talk a little bit too about finding strategies that
• 13:34
  Speaker 3: both calm and occupy the mind. And I found this
• 13:39
  Speaker 3: really interesting too, and I think maybe it dovetails a
• 13:41
  Speaker 3: little bit into the idea of like my son playing
• 13:45
  Speaker 3: YouTube videos in the background, Like he says, it's because
• 13:48
  Speaker 3: he needs something to focus on so his brain isn't
• 13:51
  Speaker 3: running a million miles an hour.
• 13:54
  Speaker 1: That's actually the perfect explanation. And I learned this through
• 13:58
  Speaker 1: the families, the kids. It's the parents that I've worked
• 14:01
  Speaker 1: with over the years that the right level of distraction
• 14:06
  Speaker 1: is key. And it goes back to that period of waiting.
• 14:09
  Speaker 1: So what do you do while you're waiting. For some kids,
• 14:12
  Speaker 1: they're ruminating, they're you know, getting excited about what they're
• 14:16
  Speaker 1: going to build with legos the next day, or you know,
• 14:20
  Speaker 1: features of a video game or a school project or whatever,
• 14:25
  Speaker 1: and while we're waiting for sleep. The best brain I
• 14:28
  Speaker 1: say to kids is calm, so you know, you don't
• 14:31
  Speaker 1: want to be excited or anxious. You want to keep
• 14:34
  Speaker 1: your brain and body calm, but also busy. So if
• 14:37
  Speaker 1: your brain has the right amount of distraction, which means
• 14:41
  Speaker 1: being engaged enough. So like counting sheep doesn't work for anybody,
• 14:46
  Speaker 1: it's too easy. It's not really distracting or engaging your brain.
• 14:50
  Speaker 1: Maybe counting back from one hundred by threes might be
• 14:53
  Speaker 1: engaging enough, but it really, again depends on what is
• 14:57
  Speaker 1: distracting enough for your child. For some kids, it's thinking
• 15:01
  Speaker 1: about all the colors of the rainbow and everything they
• 15:04
  Speaker 1: can imagine in that color. So like red, you might
• 15:07
  Speaker 1: think of fire trucks, stop signing cherries, and then you
• 15:10
  Speaker 1: go on to the next color. That helps a lot
• 15:13
  Speaker 1: of little kids. For other kids that I've had, it
• 15:16
  Speaker 1: might be like all the features of a lawnmower or
• 15:19
  Speaker 1: all the different kinds of lawnmowers that are out there. Again,
• 15:23
  Speaker 1: for kids that are into math, a lot of those
• 15:26
  Speaker 1: math tricks that we do can be helpful, but really,
• 15:30
  Speaker 1: in order for sleep to come, there has to be
• 15:34
  Speaker 1: a space for it, and that space comes from being
• 15:38
  Speaker 1: distracted enough to just allow it to arrive.
• 15:42
  Speaker 3: That waiting part is so hard, but yeah, something that
• 15:47
  Speaker 3: requires thought. So not as simple as counting sheep, because
• 15:51
  Speaker 3: our mind can still wander, but something that requires some thought. Right, interesting,
• 16:00
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• 16:03
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• 16:07
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• 16:10
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• 16:14
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• 16:41
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• 16:49
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• 16:54
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• 16:59
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• 17:03
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• 17:39
  Speaker 3: let's get back to the episode. I have actually started
• 17:52
  Speaker 3: listening to podcasts with sleep headphones to go to sleep,
• 17:56
  Speaker 3: because I do. I ruminate about everything for hours if
• 18:00
  Speaker 3: I don't. And I started with like the there's podcasts
• 18:04
  Speaker 3: meant to be boring enough to help you go to sleep,
• 18:07
  Speaker 3: and it didn't work for me. I was still thinking
• 18:09
  Speaker 3: about all the things, right, and so I was like,
• 18:11
  Speaker 3: I'm going to take a take a page for my
• 18:13
  Speaker 3: kid's playbook, and I'm just gonna see and lo and behold,
• 18:17
  Speaker 3: it works great. Yeah, and so I'm so glad we're
• 18:19
  Speaker 3: talking about this because it's just not something that people
• 18:22
  Speaker 3: would normally think about, you know. It seems to be
• 18:25
  Speaker 3: the opposite of what we think is required.
• 18:28
  Speaker 1: Right, And I might not have even thought about that
• 18:31
  Speaker 1: myself if it weren't for the families that I work
• 18:33
  Speaker 1: with and my experience with my son. One thing that
• 18:38
  Speaker 1: I did want to bring up related to this is
• 18:41
  Speaker 1: the idea of sleep associations, because that can be something
• 18:45
  Speaker 1: that you also want to consider when you're thinking about
• 18:47
  Speaker 1: how to fall asleep. We all have sleep cycles, so
• 18:51
  Speaker 1: we go through light sleep, deep sleep, dream sleep, or
• 18:53
  Speaker 1: around sleep, and then our brains wake up and that
• 18:56
  Speaker 1: happens about four to six times per night. So in general,
• 19:01
  Speaker 1: most of us are just so good at getting ourselves
• 19:04
  Speaker 1: right back to sleep. We don't even know that it happened.
• 19:06
  Speaker 1: I know, I don't remember waking up four or six
• 19:09
  Speaker 1: times last night. But the key is that whatever you
• 19:12
  Speaker 1: have to fall asleep in the first place, if you
• 19:15
  Speaker 1: don't have it during the night, it can be more
• 19:18
  Speaker 1: difficult to get yourself right back to sleep. So if
• 19:22
  Speaker 1: your challenge or your child's challenge is night wakings, then
• 19:26
  Speaker 1: you might want to think a little bit about how
• 19:29
  Speaker 1: to keep whatever it is that they have to fall asleep,
• 19:32
  Speaker 1: how to keep that the same or consistent all night long.
• 19:36
  Speaker 3: That's a good point. Yeah, I hadn't thought about that.
• 19:38
  Speaker 3: I don't leave mind playing all night, but my son does.
• 19:41
  Speaker 3: He loves us playing all night.
• 19:43
  Speaker 1: Well, I think if if it's not a problem, it's
• 19:45
  Speaker 1: not a problem. But if you're seeing night wakings, you know,
• 19:49
  Speaker 1: I see a lot of families that come to me
• 19:50
  Speaker 1: for night wakings and when I say let's start with bedtime,
• 19:55
  Speaker 1: then they feel like I'm really not hearing them, and
• 19:57
  Speaker 1: I am. But it's just that the most effective way
• 20:01
  Speaker 1: to deal with night wakings is to start at that time.
• 20:03
  Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, to start with good habits.
• 20:05
  Speaker 1: Right.
• 20:07
  Speaker 3: How do parents determine what their specific child's needs are
• 20:11
  Speaker 3: around sleep?
• 20:14
  Speaker 1: Parents are the experts in their child, and so I
• 20:17
  Speaker 1: know that there are recommendations from very reputable, you know,
• 20:22
  Speaker 1: medical associations of the American Academy of Pediatrics, the National
• 20:26
  Speaker 1: Sleep Foundation. They do provide recommendations in terms of the
• 20:31
  Speaker 1: number of hours that kids need. I recommend looking more
• 20:36
  Speaker 1: at how your child is functioning during the day, do
• 20:40
  Speaker 1: they wake up on their own ready to go. Are
• 20:42
  Speaker 1: they irritable and feel like they've been hit by a
• 20:45
  Speaker 1: truck when they first wake up? You know, are they
• 20:48
  Speaker 1: falling asleep during school or during their therapies? How are
• 20:52
  Speaker 1: they doing during the day. And we have to keep
• 20:54
  Speaker 1: in mind that, especially with younger kids, sleepiness doesn't necessarily
• 20:59
  Speaker 1: look like lethargic and low energy and fatigue. It might
• 21:03
  Speaker 1: look like extra irritable, hyperactive and attentive. But I think
• 21:09
  Speaker 1: you know your child and you know when they're in
• 21:12
  Speaker 1: their best kind of level of functioning, and I would
• 21:15
  Speaker 1: really go by that awesome.
• 21:18
  Speaker 3: Yeah, let's talk about teens a little bit. We have
• 21:21
  Speaker 3: a lot of listeners who have teens and young adults.
• 21:24
  Speaker 3: What is different or what should we think about differently?
• 21:28
  Speaker 3: Maybe for teens who are struggling with sleep. I think
• 21:32
  Speaker 3: that we don't build our systems around the way teens
• 21:36
  Speaker 3: want to be awake can be asleep, and that's something
• 21:39
  Speaker 3: that we really don't have control over. But talk to
• 21:42
  Speaker 3: us more about teens in sleep.
• 21:44
  Speaker 1: Yeah, again, as I said in the beginning, but specifically
• 21:48
  Speaker 1: for teens, it's not bad behavior, it's biology. So one
• 21:52
  Speaker 1: thing that a lot of people don't know is that
• 21:54
  Speaker 1: there's a normal shift in your circadian rhythm sometime around puberty.
• 22:00
  Speaker 2: And this is not just in the United States.
• 22:02
  Speaker 1: This has been studied in Hong Kong, Australia, Russia, France.
• 22:06
  Speaker 1: This is true for teenagers all across the globe. So
• 22:10
  Speaker 1: whereas maybe they were okay falling asleep at nine o'clock
• 22:14
  Speaker 1: a couple of years ago, now they might not be
• 22:17
  Speaker 1: ready for sleep until ten or eleven. And so there's
• 22:21
  Speaker 1: this unfortunate natural shift in biology that school and society
• 22:27
  Speaker 1: hasn't made space for. Even though they might not be
• 22:30
  Speaker 1: tired until later, they still have to get up for school,
• 22:34
  Speaker 1: and so we do have to kind of push back
• 22:36
  Speaker 1: against that. And the way that we try to do
• 22:39
  Speaker 1: that is by not really napping too much during the
• 22:43
  Speaker 1: day and not oversleeping on the weekends. But for teens
• 22:48
  Speaker 1: that's really hard. The other thing is I think about
• 22:51
  Speaker 1: this all the time. You know, there are recommendations out
• 22:54
  Speaker 1: there that, for example, people stop using electronics two hours
• 22:58
  Speaker 1: before bedtime. Teenagers with homework, their homework is generally on
• 23:04
  Speaker 1: a screen.
• 23:05
  Speaker 2: Yeah, and that is just not possible. You know.
• 23:08
  Speaker 1: The other thing is that adolescence is really a period
• 23:11
  Speaker 1: of time when teenagers want to be more on their own,
• 23:15
  Speaker 1: want to be more alone, and that is a normal
• 23:19
  Speaker 1: part of development. But we know from the research that
• 23:23
  Speaker 1: still having parents involved in what time kids go to
• 23:27
  Speaker 1: bed is really important. So I feel like teenagers kind
• 23:31
  Speaker 1: of have the odds decked against them, and what we
• 23:34
  Speaker 1: can do is gently kind of keep their circadian rhythm
• 23:39
  Speaker 1: as consistent with school times as we can and just
• 23:44
  Speaker 1: get through adolescence.
• 23:46
  Speaker 3: Yeah, sometimes it is just about getting through right there,
• 23:50
  Speaker 3: Just doing the best you can and getting through.
• 23:52
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 23:53
  Speaker 3: Can we talk about things that we might add we
• 23:58
  Speaker 3: might bring in to helpless sleep. You talk about a
• 24:01
  Speaker 3: sound machine or some white noise, but I also want
• 24:04
  Speaker 3: to talk about things like supplements like melatonin or magnesium.
• 24:09
  Speaker 3: You know, we've tried many things over the years, and
• 24:11
  Speaker 3: some have helped and some haven't. But I wonder how
• 24:14
  Speaker 3: useful you think some of these things are.
• 24:18
  Speaker 1: So I'm really guided by the science and the research.
• 24:22
  Speaker 1: I really use that as my north star, even though
• 24:25
  Speaker 1: I know sometimes we have to go beyond that. But
• 24:27
  Speaker 1: when you look at the research on melatonin, for example,
• 24:31
  Speaker 1: it's very well studied, especially in neurodivergent kids, and there
• 24:37
  Speaker 1: is a lot of misinformation out there about melatonin. It
• 24:41
  Speaker 1: doesn't stop your brain from producing its own melatonin. It's
• 24:44
  Speaker 1: not physiologically, biologically habit forming. It is not going to
• 24:51
  Speaker 1: lead to delays or problems necessarily with puberty. It's been
• 24:57
  Speaker 1: very well studied in neurodivergent kids and even in the
• 25:00
  Speaker 1: long term. And so what the research shows us is
• 25:04
  Speaker 1: that there aren't any consistent side effects from melatonin. If
• 25:10
  Speaker 1: your child is experiencing side effects, or if you feel
• 25:14
  Speaker 1: like the melatonin is not working anymore, it's probably from
• 25:18
  Speaker 1: something else that was in that supplement. You know, supplements
• 25:22
  Speaker 1: are not FDA regulated in this country, and it is
• 25:27
  Speaker 1: suggested that supplement companies report all the other things that
• 25:31
  Speaker 1: are in the supplement, but I don't know that anyone's
• 25:34
  Speaker 1: really checking up on that. And so I'm going to
• 25:37
  Speaker 1: give you two examples. One is an older study that
• 25:41
  Speaker 1: shows that a lot of melatonin supplements might have a
• 25:44
  Speaker 1: little bit of benadrell in them, and you can get
• 25:47
  Speaker 1: used to benadryl. After you know, a few nights of
• 25:50
  Speaker 1: using benadrill, it doesn't make you as sleepy as it
• 25:53
  Speaker 1: once did. The second thing is this summer, a study
• 25:58
  Speaker 1: came out looking at the gummies, and I know gummies
• 26:01
  Speaker 1: are so easy for most kids to take, but only
• 26:04
  Speaker 1: ten percent of the melatonin gummies had the melatonin that
• 26:08
  Speaker 1: they said we're in there. So I think if you're
• 26:11
  Speaker 1: going to do melatonin, use a chewable or a liquid
• 26:17
  Speaker 1: or another form, not the gummies. And if a particular
• 26:21
  Speaker 1: brand isn't working for you, I would just try a
• 26:23
  Speaker 1: different brand before you give up. So that's melatonin. Magnesium
• 26:28
  Speaker 1: is kind of the new thing that people are really
• 26:31
  Speaker 1: excited about.
• 26:32
  Speaker 2: I don't think that it's likely to be harmful.
• 26:35
  Speaker 1: However, it's not very well studied in kids, so you know,
• 26:40
  Speaker 1: it's a little bit better studied in adults. If it
• 26:43
  Speaker 1: works for your child, I don't think there's any reason
• 26:46
  Speaker 1: not to do it. If you love the smell of
• 26:48
  Speaker 1: that magnesium footspray.
• 26:50
  Speaker 2: Just go for it. But go for it because.
• 26:52
  Speaker 1: You like the smell of it. That's how I feel
• 26:54
  Speaker 1: about things like lavender, which also haven't been shown in
• 26:58
  Speaker 1: research to directly improve sleep. But if you like it,
• 27:03
  Speaker 1: if you like the smell of it and it's a
• 27:05
  Speaker 1: good part of your bedtime routine, don't stop it.
• 27:08
  Speaker 3: Yeah, because it's soothing. If you write it, it's soothing
• 27:11
  Speaker 3: you in some way.
• 27:12
  Speaker 2: Right and not right helpful exactly.
• 27:14
  Speaker 3: Yeah, So let everybody know about the book and where
• 27:20
  Speaker 3: they can get the book, also where they can find
• 27:22
  Speaker 3: you online so that they can learn more from you
• 27:24
  Speaker 3: as well.
• 27:25
  Speaker 1: So my book is released March fourth and the title
• 27:30
  Speaker 1: of it is The Good Sleep Guide.
• 27:31
  Speaker 2: For Neurodivergent Kids.
• 27:33
  Speaker 1: And my website is doctor Melissamore dot com. It's d
• 27:39
  Speaker 1: R M E l I s A with one s
• 27:42
  Speaker 1: more with two o's m O O r E dot
• 27:45
  Speaker 1: com and one thing about the book. It can be
• 27:48
  Speaker 1: a reference in addition to something that you just want
• 27:51
  Speaker 1: to read. And I know, Penny, on your website you
• 27:53
  Speaker 1: always have the three takeaways, and I'm so appreciative of
• 27:58
  Speaker 1: that because we don't all have the time or energy
• 28:02
  Speaker 1: to be dealing with that. And so if you get
• 28:04
  Speaker 1: to a chapter and you feel like it doesn't apply
• 28:06
  Speaker 1: to you or you're just too tired. At the end
• 28:08
  Speaker 1: of each chapter, I have what I call tucking tips
• 28:11
  Speaker 1: and they're just kind of the nuggets from the chapter
• 28:13
  Speaker 1: that are important. And I also have one pillow point
• 28:17
  Speaker 1: at the end. You can only handle one sentence, that's okay.
• 28:21
  Speaker 2: That's okay.
• 28:21
  Speaker 3: I love that it was definitely designed for parents of
• 28:24
  Speaker 3: nerdiversion kids. Sometimes it's the little nugget is all we
• 28:29
  Speaker 3: have time for, and other times it's like we need
• 28:31
  Speaker 3: the whole big picture and we can do that. So
• 28:34
  Speaker 3: I love that, and I'm going to link all of
• 28:36
  Speaker 3: that up, all of the book and your website and
• 28:39
  Speaker 3: everything up for everyone in the show notes at Parenting
• 28:42
  Speaker 3: ADHD and autism dot com. Thank you, Thank you for
• 28:46
  Speaker 3: the work that you're doing helping us with sleep. Sleep
• 28:49
  Speaker 3: is one of those things that when our kids sleep
• 28:52
  Speaker 3: is disrupted, our sleep ends up disrupted, and then nobody's
• 28:56
  Speaker 3: feeling good and nobody's able to do good. And it's
• 29:00
  Speaker 3: really a core of being human to get the right
• 29:03
  Speaker 3: amount of sleep. So I am so thankful that you
• 29:07
  Speaker 3: are really putting this together with neurodivergence and helping parents
• 29:10
  Speaker 3: like me with our kids sleep and then our own
• 29:14
  Speaker 3: sleep of course, So thank you and thank you for
• 29:17
  Speaker 3: being here.
• 29:17
  Speaker 2: I'm right there with you. Thank you.
• 29:20
  Speaker 3: I'll see everybody next time. Take good care. I see you.
• 29:26
  Speaker 3: You're doing hard and meaningful work and you don't have
• 29:29
  Speaker 3: to do it alone. If you found this episode helpful,
• 29:33
  Speaker 3: share it with someone who needs it and leave a
• 29:35
  Speaker 3: quick review. So Others can find this support too. When
• 29:39
  Speaker 3: you're ready for next steps, the Regulated Kid's Project is
• 29:42
  Speaker 3: here with the tools, coaching, and community to help you
• 29:46
  Speaker 3: raise a more regulated, resilient child. Get more info at
• 29:51
  Speaker 3: regulated kids dot com.