Latest / Becker’s Healthcare Podcast / Keeping Humans in Charge of AI in Healthcare with Phoebe Yang

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Keeping Humans in Charge of AI in Healthcare with Phoebe Yang · Becker’s Healthcare Podcast

• 0:00
  - This is Scott Becker with the Becker's health
• 0:03
  - care and the Becker business podcast.
• 0:05
  - We're joined today by a brilliant leader. We're
• 0:08
  - joined today by Phoebe Yang,
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  - and Phoebe serves in multiple different roles.
• 0:14
  - I I I believe, Phoebe, if I've got
• 0:15
  - this right, you're on the board of Doximity.
• 0:18
  - You're a lecturer in law at Stanford Law
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  - School, also a Stanford Law graduate, I think,
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  - also a board director at GE Healthcare
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  - and and a stewardship trustee at CommonSpirit Health.
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  - Literally a a remarkable
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  - career instead of, perspectives.
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  - Also a venture partner, Redesign Health.
• 0:38
  - Take a moment,
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  - Phoebe. Tell us a little bit about yourself
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  - and and your background,
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  - and you were also... Obviously, you're brilliant. You
• 0:46
  - were the editor in chief at the Stanford
• 0:47
  - Law Review.
• 0:48
  - The people that I know that were editor
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  - in chief of the Law Reviews
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  - at the school I went to were just
• 0:54
  - absolutely brilliant.
• 0:55
  - Tell us a little bit about yourself and
• 0:57
  - your background and how you came to do
• 0:59
  - all these things.
• 1:00
  - Well, first of all, Scott, thank you so
• 1:03
  - much. This is such a fun privilege to
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  - get to sit with you because, well, you
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  - and I have many mutual besties,
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  - and, and I also just learned so much
• 1:13
  - from your conversation. So thanks for having me.
• 1:16
  - Well, so to answer your question in brief,
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  - as you mentioned, I've spent my career at
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  - the intersection of technology, consumer media, and health
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  - care,
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  - and then the c suite and senior executive
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  - roles at four public companies.
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  - And I've also gotten to work in the
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  - government in two presidential administrations
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  - and, you know, at a big tech company
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  - running health care for Amazon Web Services.
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  - And all of those really... I mean, they're
• 1:41
  - sort of sounds like mini hats for those
• 1:43
  - who are Dolly Parton fans, the coat of
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  - many colors. I suppose I have a head
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  - of mini hats, and,
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  - and I enjoy them. One of the most
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  - fun things I get to do, as you
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  - mentioned, is to teach at Stanford Law School
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  - where I designed,
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  - and teach a course on business leadership in
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  - the age of AI.
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  - So it's... All of those... The the underlying
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  - thread to all of that, that you mentioned
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  - is that I would say I'm a tech
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  - enabled human
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  - who cares deeply about other humans.
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  - And, and I believe each person has intrinsic
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  - worth. And so my goal in life and
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  - in each role is to bring out, develop,
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  - and align,
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  - that worth to its calling, which I think
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  - technology can help us do.
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  - Thank you. And and when you look at
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  - what you're doing today,
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  - serving on the board of GE, Doximity, Commencement
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  - Health,
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  - teaching at Stanford Law, What are what are
• 2:35
  - some of the biggest trends that you're watching?
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  - I mean, obviously, so much in AI and
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  - health care. What what are you sort of...
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  - What... What's top of mind for you? And
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  - and
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  - where do you see this? Like, I always
• 2:48
  - think about the iPhone fifteen, twenty years ago.
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  - I would never thought it would be a...
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  - Be so ubiquitous
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  - in what I do. I couldn't have predicted
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  - then all the use cases.
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  - Will AI be as ubiquitous as the iPhone
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  - has become?
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  - And then on top of that, can you
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  - predict... Like, we've seen some of the use
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  - cases in health care, ambient listening,
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  - open evidence,
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  - some of the predictive analytics really, and some
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  - of the revenue cycle stuff really become front
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  - and center.
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  - Are there areas
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  - that you think are the most likely big,
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  - big next use cases or use cases in
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  - health care? Will it be ubiquitous, and what
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  - are some of the big use cases you
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  - expect?
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  - So it's an interesting question, Scott. The the
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  - short answer is yes, but I think of
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  - it more like electricity
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  - than I think of it as any particular
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  - brand of a phone. And what I mean
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  - by that is whether someone is actually using
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  - AI as a consumer,
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  - they will be using AI,
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  - indirectly as a consumer just like they use
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  - electricity. It'll be something we don't even think
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  - about
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  - because it will be embedded into so much
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  - of what we do
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  - day in and day out in the way
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  - that we live our lives, the things that
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  - we both produce
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  - and consume,
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  - that it will be ubiquitous in that in
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  - that respect.
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  - From a consumer or a physician or an
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  - individual perspective, I believe it will become
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  - very much a part of our our sort
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  - of broader society. And in health care, specifically,
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  - you know, I have my eye really on
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  - both the intersection
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  - of AI and cybersecurity
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  - on the one hand, but also how we
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  - think about governing, designing, and using
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  - AI
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  - to ensure that we improve humanity at a
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  - societal level, but also at the level of
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  - of the person. Right? And
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  - every technology...
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  - You've mentioned the iPhone, and I'll go even
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  - farther back to, you know, the pencil or
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  - the read pen in ancient Greece,
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  - has had the capability,
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  - of both advancing
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  - human can't... Kind as well as making us
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  - worse off. And,
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  - you know, as we start to approach the
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  - edge of superintelligence,
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  - it reminds me of Socrates who famously bemoaned
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  - the invention of writing because he thought it
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  - would cause mental faculties to decline and would
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  - serve as a crutch for the sharpness of
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  - the human mind. And that sounds really similar
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  - to what we're talking about with AI today.
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  - Like, the rise of AI and agentic capabilities
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  - is causing us to face really similar questions
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  - of human dignity, agency,
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  - cognitive ability on both the human and the
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  - societal level. And so, yes,
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  - I think many people in health care excited
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  - about its potential to relieve clinician burnout, to
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  - streamline and eliminate administrative waste,
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  - to predict fatal conditions and,
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  - and cure diseases and to improve the overall
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  - patient experience. And at the same time, many
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  - people are justifiably
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  - frightened by the reports of rogue agents and
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  - misdiagnoses
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  - and loss of connection or control
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  - in clinical and social relationships.
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  - And so what I've kept my eye on
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  - is how are we responding,
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  - you know, to this? The tech industry and
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  - a lot of the frontier models have been
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  - focused on solving this through questions of what
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  - is called model alignment. That means, you know,
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  - making sure the model does what it's designed
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  - to do.
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  - And, even many parts of the cybersecurity
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  - industry are focused on that.
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  - But there's relatively
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  - scant investment and focus
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  - on building and designing for safety
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  - and securing known vulnerabilities
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  - in AI model design and development. And
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  - given the huge...
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  - The immense drive
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  - of economic interests and the desire to first
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  - achieve technological
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  - dominance,
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  - we who are in medicine and health care,
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  - it's really upon us to take
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  - responsibility
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  - for the stakes
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  - that are probably huger in our field than
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  - any other field.
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  - And it gives us great... Both
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  - an opportunity to
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  - exercise a privilege, but a huge responsibility
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  - to lead
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  - at this particular moment in history.
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  - I mean, what we decide in our daily
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  - work, what you do on your iPhone,
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  - and what I do, you know, on my
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  - MacBook
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  - Air with my agent,
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  - all of that will impact,
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  - not just ourselves, but our families, our communities.
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  - It sets create... Creates incentives,
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  - on the economic level for our world, and
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  - it'll impact generations to come.
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  - Thank you. And you worked in both, I
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  - think, the Clinton administration, the Obama administration.
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  - Before I ask you about what you're most
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  - focused on today and also about...
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  - You've had this amazing career. What advice you
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  - would give to emerging leaders?
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  - Just give us
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  - two seconds. I'm working in the Obama and
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  - Clinton administration.
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  - Were they both very nice people, a pleasure
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  - to work with? You know,
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  - anything you wanna share with us that won't
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  - get any of us sued. Anything nice to
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  - share or interesting.
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  - Sure. And I will I will note, that
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  - I ended up staying. I was asked by
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  - the Bush administration,
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  - the Bush w... The w Bush administration also
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  - to stay. So I've worked in that administration
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  - for a period of time as well.
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  - They were all nice people.
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  - They were all visionaries. They had a really
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  - strong sense of public service,
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  - and truly wanting to serve the public,
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  - before themselves. And I really admire that
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  - in in in all of them. Of course,
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  - everyone
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  - has a different approach and a viewpoint on
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  - how to do that, but it was a
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  - lot of fun. It was... Those were both
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  - times where,
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  - there were pretty strong
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  - societal imperatives about investment in health care as
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  - an example,
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  - as well as how we think about who
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  - we are in terms of, you know, economic,
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  - interests,
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  - etcetera. And so,
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  - those were exciting times,
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  - to be working in in those spaces. And
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  - and my Clinton administration appointment was,
• 9:02
  - working in China,
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  - at a time when they were exceeding to
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  - the WTO. I'm dating myself. So,
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  - those were pretty interesting times too because the
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  - dynamics of the world were changing.
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  - Simply amazing. And what are you most focused
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  - on and excited about right now?
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  - Well, you know, both in my business of
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  - AI class at Stanford and in my board
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  - work, I'm really focused on how do we
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  - fulfill the responsibility
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  - to lead and support others who lead and
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  - how do we train the next generation of
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  - leaders to make the right decisions
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  - in this age of AI? And so
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  - an example,
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  - you recently and Becker's had a headline
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  - that common spirit has captured, you know, a
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  - financial value of $200,000,000
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  - from AI.
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  - What you didn't have is that we actually
• 9:53
  - have a pipeline of of, over 400,000,000
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  - in additional
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  - value that we're,
• 9:59
  - anticipating
• 10:00
  - generating from AI work that's already underway.
• 10:04
  - Similarly, Doximity, you know, the leading clinical AI
• 10:07
  - company by a number of metrics,
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  - has made it possible for its 3,000,000 clinicians
• 10:13
  - and 300 health systems to ask any clinical
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  - question
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  - and not just get an answer that's generated
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  - by AI, but get
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  - specific and accurate
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  - peer reviewed answers.
• 10:25
  - And so it's not just the use of
• 10:28
  - AI. It's the quality of the AI. But
• 10:30
  - what people don't realize
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  - enough is that that value creation
• 10:35
  - doesn't just come from using AI.
• 10:38
  - Anyone can use AI, and they can create
• 10:41
  - waste and increase
• 10:42
  - costs,
• 10:43
  - around that use.
• 10:45
  - But it's like any any building or house.
• 10:47
  - You know? The value and, therefore, the competitive
• 10:50
  - advantage
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  - comes from its foundation.
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  - And in AI, the foundation is really about
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  - data and governance.
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  - And so serving on those boards, but also
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  - from a management perspective,
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  - what this means
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  - from my experience is that we must put
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  - humans at... Not just in the loop,
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  - but my friend, Paul Goldman, who just wrote
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  - a book
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  - on AI and and the workforce,
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  - who who leads ethical AI at Salesforce,
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  - she and I were talking about humans at
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  - the helm of all that we do, not
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  - just humans in the loop. And we cannot
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  - lose agency. We must direct agency.
• 11:29
  - So what does that mean specifically?
• 11:31
  - One of my favorite examples is is is,
• 11:33
  - you know, Doximity doesn't just provide answers to
• 11:36
  - prompts with clinical questions.
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  - It enlists over 12,000 physicians across every specialty
• 11:41
  - area to review every clinical answer and every
• 11:44
  - piece of content that they produce through their
• 11:46
  - AI platform before even making that answer available
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  - to a physician, a nurse, a pharmacist, or
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  - any other other person that,
• 11:54
  - that's caring for us.
• 11:56
  - And that's how, you know, when you look
• 11:57
  - at governance and you look at safety, questions
• 12:00
  - of those...
• 12:01
  - The Stanford no harm study came out and
• 12:04
  - said that, you know, their platform was the
• 12:06
  - number one platform
• 12:07
  - that clinicians who were assessing all the platforms
• 12:10
  - and the answers,
• 12:11
  - they rated through Doximity's answers the highest. Similarly,
• 12:15
  - GE Healthcare
• 12:16
  - is is the number one ranked med tech
• 12:19
  - company in terms of FDA approved authorized
• 12:23
  - AI enabled medical devices. But that comes through
• 12:27
  - instilling
• 12:28
  - safety, quality,
• 12:30
  - efficacy
• 12:31
  - into the process of the use of AI.
• 12:34
  - And as you know, 76%
• 12:36
  - of the FDA's authorizations are in radiology, so
• 12:39
  - that's a really right place
• 12:41
  - to be working.
• 12:42
  - And to bring it sort of home concretely,
• 12:45
  - you know, a common spirit when I,
• 12:48
  - became chair of the technology committee
• 12:50
  - of that board,
• 12:52
  - I began a discussion with our CEO, Wright
• 12:55
  - Lasser, and our c... CIO, Daniel Barchi, who
• 12:58
  - I know you know well,
• 12:59
  - about the need to really develop an overarching
• 13:03
  - governance framework and a dashboard
• 13:05
  - to help us track, measure, and align
• 13:08
  - whether AI is being used consistent
• 13:11
  - with the goals that the board thinks we
• 13:13
  - have, meaning in our mission,
• 13:15
  - strategically,
• 13:17
  - clinically,
• 13:18
  - financially,
• 13:19
  - operationally,
• 13:20
  - reputationally
• 13:21
  - in the environment with our people and our
• 13:24
  - communities.
• 13:25
  - And so,
• 13:26
  - our excellent CIO, Daniel Barchi, went out to
• 13:29
  - 60 of his peers because nobody had seen
• 13:31
  - anything like this before
• 13:33
  - and, said, do you all have anything like
• 13:36
  - this? And these were peers from across
• 13:39
  - many industries, not just in health care, and
• 13:41
  - no one did. I did a similar thing
• 13:43
  - with my board peers. At that time, no
• 13:45
  - one had anything like that.
• 13:47
  - Well, we decided we would dig in and
• 13:49
  - do it ourselves. So we now have one.
• 13:51
  - We launched the version one of it about
• 13:53
  - a year ago. We're now on version four.
• 13:55
  - We continue to evolve it, but it gives
• 13:58
  - us a framework and a tool both at
• 14:00
  - the board level but also the management level
• 14:02
  - to think about how are we deploying AI.
• 14:05
  - Is the AI giving the ROI that we
• 14:07
  - wanna see, not just financially, but more broadly?
• 14:10
  - And how are we thinking about governing all
• 14:13
  - of those agents that we're beginning,
• 14:15
  - to deploy and ensuring that the human agency
• 14:18
  - ownership doesn't get lost. So it's a super
• 14:21
  - exciting time to be a leader,
• 14:23
  - in in health care and in AI, and
• 14:26
  - it's really gratifying
• 14:28
  - to see that those who are doing it
• 14:30
  - the right way are seeing,
• 14:32
  - results that they're yielding real rewards.
• 14:35
  - And and and I love that point, quite
• 14:37
  - frankly, on sort of, like, our AI at
• 14:40
  - Becker's HealthCare must not be good enough because
• 14:42
  - we didn't pick up the extra 400,000,000 in
• 14:45
  - savings that you've got coming on at common
• 14:47
  - spirit. In in reality, that's fantastic. And the
• 14:50
  - leadership team and and some of the outside
• 14:52
  - people you work with, whether it's Wright Lasseter,
• 14:55
  - Daniel Barger, fantastic, fantastic leaders,
• 14:58
  - and I know you're working with some great
• 15:00
  - outside firms as well there, but just phenomenal
• 15:03
  - what you're doing. Yeah. Well, just to be
• 15:05
  - clear, it... Scott, it wasn't all savings. Some
• 15:07
  - of it's, you know, increased value. So it's
• 15:10
  - economic value across the board, which includes
• 15:13
  - opportunities, increased revenue,
• 15:15
  - you know, productivity, etcetera. So it's it's all
• 15:18
  - of that wrapped in together,
• 15:20
  - which is really exciting.
• 15:22
  - It's
• 15:23
  - really amazing. And, Yufehan, when I when I
• 15:25
  - look at your career,
• 15:26
  - love your career, obviously, just
• 15:28
  - brilliant, but able to connect a lot of
• 15:30
  - different dots too. And
• 15:32
  - and talk a little bit about, you know,
• 15:35
  - you've had sort of this nonlinear career.
• 15:37
  - Talk a little bit about that and what
• 15:39
  - advice you would give to others
• 15:41
  - trying to have great careers and impactful careers.
• 15:44
  - Well, you've had a pretty amazing career.
• 15:47
  - So thank you.
• 15:49
  - You know, I... On a personal level,
• 15:52
  - I am just an intensely curious person.
• 15:56
  - So I am always...
• 15:59
  - I'm I'm I'm just by nature learning.
• 16:02
  - And I think to be a good leader
• 16:04
  - in today's world and in the world that
• 16:07
  - we're, you know, facing in the future,
• 16:10
  - that
• 16:10
  - curiosity
• 16:11
  - is really important. The other thing that's really
• 16:13
  - important is
• 16:15
  - a grounding in who we are, who you
• 16:17
  - are, and, and not to lose that because
• 16:20
  - it's very easy to lose that in the
• 16:22
  - hype,
• 16:23
  - the flash in the pan kind of things
• 16:25
  - that come our way. And every generation has
• 16:28
  - them. Right? So,
• 16:29
  - but what I tell my students
• 16:31
  - and what I tell other leaders,
• 16:34
  - new leaders,
• 16:35
  - who are fearful
• 16:37
  - of AI is you can't learn to govern
• 16:40
  - that which you do not understand. And so
• 16:42
  - a great example,
• 16:44
  - which I shared with my 15 year old
• 16:46
  - son recently, is is the car. You know?
• 16:49
  - We were on a drive, and he said
• 16:50
  - I... He doesn't drive yet. He doesn't have
• 16:52
  - a license, and I was getting tired. And
• 16:54
  - he said, I can just take over. I'll
• 16:55
  - drive the rest of the way home. We
• 16:57
  - were driving from Cincinnati, and I said, that
• 16:59
  - doesn't work that way.
• 17:01
  - And, you know, most of us learn to
• 17:03
  - drive ourselves. But if you drive, you know
• 17:06
  - what good driving looks like, but you also
• 17:08
  - know what the potential dangers are. So
• 17:11
  - there's a process. You get your license. To
• 17:13
  - get your license, you educate yourself. You get
• 17:15
  - hands on. Part of your license is is
• 17:18
  - showing that you can drive, not just that
• 17:19
  - you know the rules of the road. But
• 17:21
  - you also learned the rules of the road.
• 17:24
  - You know where the risks lie. You you
• 17:26
  - don't
• 17:27
  - delegate sort of agency
• 17:30
  - of the steering wheel, and you shouldn't delegate
• 17:32
  - agency
• 17:33
  - of AI without knowing those those rules.
• 17:37
  - You practice. You start in in the realm
• 17:39
  - of AI. Start with simple tasks, move to
• 17:41
  - complex terrain, increase your abilities. You put in
• 17:44
  - safety checks like guardrails and biases
• 17:46
  - and... Against hallucinations,
• 17:48
  - and you make sure it aligns with your
• 17:50
  - values. You maintain control. You don't go on
• 17:53
  - cruise control when the terrain looks risky and,
• 17:57
  - and, versus, you know, the predictable and low
• 17:59
  - risk terrain.
• 18:00
  - And you never go to sleep. You don't
• 18:02
  - assume
• 18:03
  - that nothing will change. Things will constantly change,
• 18:06
  - so you can continue to monitor. But most
• 18:08
  - of all, you realize that you ultimately are
• 18:10
  - responsible. Right? And so you think of AI
• 18:13
  - as a tool. But the... For those who
• 18:14
  - are pretty cavalier about AI,
• 18:17
  - I say don't lose the agency too. You
• 18:19
  - know, you're... You are at the helm. You're
• 18:21
  - the human at the helm, not just the
• 18:22
  - human in the loop. And so you must
• 18:25
  - learn to think and write and operate
• 18:27
  - and be wary of the drift
• 18:29
  - towards what I call cognitive
• 18:31
  - and volitional
• 18:32
  - atrophy.
• 18:34
  - You're in charge,
• 18:35
  - of of how you use it, but how
• 18:37
  - you do it impacts your children, get your
• 18:39
  - communities,
• 18:40
  - the society at large. And so we're all
• 18:43
  - on a very
• 18:44
  - important journey, and we must remain active in
• 18:47
  - it. But it's an exciting time,
• 18:50
  - for us all to be leaning in, And
• 18:52
  - the decisions that we make today and how
• 18:54
  - we invest our time,
• 18:56
  - the values that reflect explicitly and implicitly,
• 19:00
  - and the decisions we make and how we
• 19:03
  - invest our time, those consequences
• 19:05
  - are far greater than I think most of
• 19:08
  - us realize.
• 19:10
  - So I'm gonna ask you
• 19:12
  - a couple other questions. Okay? Okay. Now for
• 19:15
  - people that don't,
• 19:16
  - Phoebe Yang, Phoebe was the
• 19:19
  - president, editor in chief of the Stanford Law
• 19:21
  - Review.
• 19:22
  - People that... That's a long time ago.
• 19:24
  - People that went to law school understand
• 19:27
  - how bright a person that typically is and
• 19:30
  - how, how
• 19:32
  - achievement
• 19:33
  - oriented and and usually a spectacularly
• 19:36
  - bright and terrific person.
• 19:38
  - Now
• 19:39
  - you worked with two different presidents.
• 19:42
  - I also went to law school.
• 19:44
  - Of those three people,
• 19:46
  - Barack Obama,
• 19:47
  - Scott Becker, and Bill Clinton,
• 19:50
  - who else was an editor in chief of
• 19:53
  - the Law Review?
• 19:55
  - Oh,
• 19:57
  - of course, Scott Becker. It had to be...
• 19:59
  - Scott Becker was not. Scott Becker was not.
• 20:01
  - I can assure you I was not. The,
• 20:03
  - Bill Clinton was not. So now Phoebe,
• 20:08
  - through the process of elimination...
• 20:12
  - No. President president Obama.... Obama. Yes. I... He
• 20:15
  - was when... That's true.
• 20:17
  - It's not his most... His greatest claim to
• 20:20
  - fame. So,
• 20:21
  - but it... But it's true. But... No. He
• 20:23
  - he was also the... Just so you're in
• 20:25
  - great company. No. Neither...
• 20:28
  - You know, I I I either me nor
• 20:30
  - Bill Clinton was president or editor in chief
• 20:31
  - of the law review. They they wouldn't have
• 20:33
  - either of us, me for sure, and I'm
• 20:35
  - sure him either. But you and president Obama
• 20:37
  - were both presidents and and editor in chief
• 20:39
  - of the law review, which is which is
• 20:41
  - like being a federal court clerk and... Or
• 20:43
  - being a federal court judge is an amazing
• 20:45
  - accomplishment for a lawyer, and you've had such
• 20:47
  - a incredible career.
• 20:49
  - I love your concept, and I... And I'm
• 20:51
  - gonna ask you one other question.
• 20:53
  - I I... You know, everybody talks about the
• 20:55
  - human in the loop. You so articulately
• 20:57
  - said human in charge. I love that. I'm
• 21:00
  - in the process of writing another book, a
• 21:01
  - health care book.
• 21:03
  - Can I use that with attribution to yourself,
• 21:05
  - the concept of not just human in the
• 21:06
  - loop, but Phoebe Yang says human in charge?
• 21:09
  - I just love that. I think that's a
• 21:10
  - really great
• 21:11
  - take and and perspective on this.
• 21:14
  - Absolutely.
• 21:15
  - Absolutely.
• 21:16
  - Absolutely.
• 21:17
  - Yeah. Thank you so much. Well well, Phoebe,
• 21:19
  - what a great pleasure to visit with you.
• 21:21
  - Simply incredible. What a pleasure. You know, it's
• 21:23
  - like, you know, there's the old, you know,
• 21:25
  - there's there's this old thing. It's like the
• 21:26
  - Forrest Gump thing. Life is like a box
• 21:28
  - of chocolate. You never know what you're getting.
• 21:30
  - Who knew today I was gonna be so
• 21:31
  - fortunate to to interview somebody who is so
• 21:33
  - brilliant and has had such an incredible career
• 21:35
  - across so many different areas. So, Phoebe,
• 21:38
  - today, I I got the I got the...
• 21:40
  - I I I feel like I won the
• 21:41
  - lottery and getting a chance to visit with
• 21:42
  - you.
• 21:43
  - Well, it's so much. Well, thank you. It's
• 21:46
  - such a thrill.
• 21:47
  - Scott, you... Your influence and impact in health
• 21:50
  - care is so far and wide, so thank
• 21:52
  - you. It's been a it's been a lot
• 21:54
  - of fun.
• 21:55
  - Well, just a pleasure to visit with you.
• 21:57
  - I know the great things they're doing on
• 21:59
  - AI at CommonSpirit, and I'm sure quite frankly
• 22:01
  - at Dexivity, GE Healthcare,
• 22:03
  - and every place else you're involved. And you
• 22:04
  - must love getting a chance to visit
• 22:07
  - with brilliant students at at Stanford and the
• 22:09
  - law school. That must just
• 22:11
  - be really
• 22:12
  - engaging and interesting for you. It's it's wonderful.
• 22:15
  - It's it's wonderful to be inspired by and
• 22:17
  - to have a little bit of influence over
• 22:18
  - the next generation, as you know.
• 22:21
  - Isn't that the truth? I... They they are
• 22:23
  - lucky to have you, and you're lucky to
• 22:24
  - have them. It's a wonderful thing. Phoebe, thank
• 22:26
  - you so much for joining us. What a
• 22:28
  - pleasure to visit with you. Thank you so
• 22:30
  - much, Scott.