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Tolkien, Lewis, the Inklings and Audiobooks · Mythmakers

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  Hello and welcome to MythMakers. MythMakers is the podcast for fantasy fans and fantasy
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  creatives brought to you by the Oxford Centre for Fantasy. My name is Julia Golding and
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  today I am joined by my friend from Australia Andrew Head and we're going to continue our
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  discussion about audiobooks and in this episode we are taking our attention over to the
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  bar graphese of Lewis Tolkien and Inklings so welcome Andrew. Hello it's lovely to be here thank
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  you Julia. And those who listen regularly to our podcast will know that Andrew is also I think
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  you're you're completely blind Andrew or partially. Totally blind now yes. The accessibility of
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  audiobooks is absolutely key not only just out of your interest but also you're a smashing writer
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  so it helps you also in your writing so I look forward to talking about these biographies with you.
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  We're now going to turn our attention to audio versions of
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  biographies of Tolkien and Lewis and the two we're thinking about the first one is to start with
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  the biography of J.R.R. Tolkien by Humphrey Carpenter so this is actually quite an old book now
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  but it's read by the version that you can get easily on sort of audible or equivalent is
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  read by Roger May and I just had a little listen and I thought it sounded great so tell me what you
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  found in listening to this biography. Oh and in terms of the narration first? Yeah tell us about
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  the production and then about the book itself. Well yeah so it's a standard one narrator read.
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  No sound effects you know. No 1920s cars. No sound effects and you know the narrated
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  does all the voices. Yeah I think he did a very good job as a narrator definitely. So yeah it
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  goes you know being a biography of Tolkien it goes through his life. One of my favorite parts of
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  the of the book is the prologue because in the prologue you know Humphrey Carpenter recounts
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  it's first meeting with Tolkien and I'm sure you're probably the same Julia when you read it.
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  I was in there in awe going you lucky lucky lucky fastest but yeah just to have been in Tolkien's
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  presence I'm like wow that's be amazing. So yeah that's you know it's very enjoyable to
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  listen to and I think he did the smart choice putting that as the prologue. Yes it's been a way
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  where it evokes the meeting it's very sort of he's a he's got a great style Humphrey Carpenter
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  because he not only tells you the facts around someone but he evokes a moment and he does that
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  for his own meeting with Tolkien. Yeah I wished he could he mentioned or you know Tolkien
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  proceeded to talk about some problems he was having with Lord of the Rings and rewriting parts
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  or something and I know which he'd elaborated on exactly what that was. Yeah and he does you
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  know goes through Tolkien's straight from you know his early life growing up in South Africa
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  and coming back to England and yeah all through his life and does a very good job and one of the
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  the other things he does very well is he at one point he painted went through and
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  painted a picture if you will of in describing of you know a typical day in Tolkien's life it
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  wasn't an exact recount it was a you know putting together of what all the events that most
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  likely would have happened on a given day and I remember he recounted in you know he said when
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  it in the in the book you know he said oh some people might find the details boring I can't
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  I can't quite remember but that that's the gist not me I really enjoyed that was one of the
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  my other favorite parts it was really enjoyable to sort of yeah you know okay well what
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  what was a typical day for Tolkien like you know it was yeah really really interesting.
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  Yes because the big events for Tolkien happened really at the beginning of his life with the
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  South Africa phase the all for being an orphan this is all you know bar graphical material galore
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  the first world war but once he reaches Oxford it's a fairly except for the second world war
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  his life is pretty much rinse and repeat it's family life it's lecturing it's you know struggling
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  to make ends meet and so I think that way he chose to do it is a good way of saying I haven't got
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  lots of different separate incidents to tell you but I can give you a flavor of this man's life
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  in this period in his life um the Humphrey Carpenter Barbeque which is still probably
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  the authoritative one though there are some others yeah I have heard from contemporary scholars
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  like Holly Ordway and others that there is an element of editing the life for his own taste that
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  goes on with Humphrey Carpenter so certain letters are only put in a certain way I remember when I
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  read it that Mrs Tolkien Edith doesn't particularly come out very well it's not a very sympathetic
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  portrait of her did you get that impression yes yeah he did I'm interested to obviously to hear
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  what you noticed and what Holly Ordway notices but um and what I can remember yeah I mean he
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  he sort of a cup of times he definitely sort of said you know um eat Tolkien and Edith had you
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  know marital problems and you know she uh Edith was very stubborn and uh you know for a while
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  wouldn't uh wouldn't you know do what Tolkien asked in terms of coming to church and practicing her
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  religion more and um sometimes she got the impression that it wasn't a very happy marriage but
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  I mean it's clear that they loved each other very much and I do think um I think that you know
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  whilst that those things probably were issues at times um you know nothing's perfect but uh
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  he did sort of paint a bit of a picture that you know the marriage was quite difficult
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  between them and I like to think that well yet it had it's you know probably had some difficult
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  moments and you know they came from they were both orphans etc but it I think on the whole it was
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  a lovely marriage then he paints in the biography if that if that makes sense yeah so I think
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  each biography comes with the lens that the biographer puts on it and I think Humphrey Carpenter
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  wasn't great about women to be honest and um remember that Tolkien's last word on Edith is to put
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  on her gravestone that she's Lothian yes and he's so he I think he misses out the romance that is on
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  but as you say there's a long life there is elements both of them didn't enjoy perfect health
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  um it has some issues with her health and sort of her nerves um you know what these days are
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  mentally honest I suppose um obviously and Tolkien was off the hill um and also had sort of
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  like stress related work issues but that is a long life and don't we all at some point in our
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  lives have all those things I think that the where I would say the the biography is the strength of
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  the biography is you get to know Tolkien as he is known by his male friends yeah the weakness
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  at the biography is you don't really get to know him as he is known by his family and in his inner
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  being I don't know that we get there um yeah so I would have liked to have seen a bit more of those
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  things yeah but maybe they're out of out of our reach I don't know but I think it is a very good
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  place to start the biography but also it's not the place to stop yeah and you know but one of the
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  reasons why you don't get much evidence about the relationship with Edith is he's living with her
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  so he's not sending letters to her saying on my darling Edith or yeah so there's a big
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  yeah that's true material you know they they retired it was he just choice to go to Bournemouth
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  and Tolkien went he didn't like Bournemouth particularly but he went because he thought well she's
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  been my faithful one for these years putting up with me going to Oxford dinners it's about time she
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  could play bridge down in Bournemouth that is a give and take of a marriage
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  serious that every marriage is has its own workings so that's what I remember from the
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  biography but I think if you're looking for a listen I think it's done very well and it is a
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  place definitely to start yes the caveat that it's not the whole story um there are some
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  yeah he's in the biographer yeah okay so let's move to the C.S. Lewis
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  a life by Alistair McGrath who I met Alistair McGrath I haven't met Hunter Campinter
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  he's yeah yeah he's yeah he's well known in Oxford tell us about uh so jealous uh
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  it's read by Robin Sachs I was wondering if Alistair might have read it I discovered it's not
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  read by him it's a lovely man um yeah also these sort of people like Philip Paulman and Alistair
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  yeah it probably goes the same dinners together and I wonder what the creations are like
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  probably very very informed anyway tell us about this this biography well speaking of the author
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  of the photography at the start there's I think it's the the narrator actually interviews
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  Alistair McGrath which is exciting so yeah that was that was very enjoyable to listen to
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  and it's sort of you know sort of gave an overview in the interview of what the biographer you know
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  an overview of how he came to write they'd be interested and write the biography which is uh written
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  for the 50 year anniversary of C.S. Lewis's death and he sort of talks about you know that there's
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  gives you a bit of a spoiler warning that there's a bit of he draws on multiple sources like
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  C.S. Lewis's own letters and other letters and accounts from other people uh so he draws from
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  lots of different places to tell the story and he also highlights at various points how you know
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  one account or one person's perspective of an event was ABC and another person's perspective is
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  DEF and he sort of you know puts it together and sort of says well you know this is probably what
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  happened um so he gives you both you know all the accounts and then sort of says well overall
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  you know it's probably looking like that this event this event happened like this and it's yeah
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  throughout the throughout the biography and I think it's it's done very well but it's a bit more
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  I'd say it's a bit more analytical sometimes than story if that they sort of deviate from the
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  story to discuss well this is you know did it happen like this sort of to happen like this
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  and it's a little bit jarring that when you I've never read a biography like that before or so
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  I found it a bit jarring but at the same time it was interesting and enjoyable.
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  Well I find interesting what you've described is it sounds as though it is being
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  he's analyzing what you can know as a biographer.
• 12:24
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  So he's being his own sort of audacity to say this is his life because I haven't read
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  the answer to the graph one but I did a long time ago read the AN Wilson one
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  which AN Wilson he doesn't he didn't come across as actually liking the subject of his biography.
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  I found myself I think he's been on a journey himself since then so whether or not it's been
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  revised since there's some there's some problems in getting to grips with CS Lewis so for example he
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  has this odd relationship with a lady called Mrs. Moore which a lot ofographers aren't quite sure
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  what to do with. He also has CS Lewis has his own biography of autobiography surprised by joy
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  so that's a kind of authoritative version of his early life already. So it's a challenge for a
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  biographer. He's got a lot of other material but this is more incident. You need to sort of put
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  a frame around it but whatever was because see AN Wilson decides it was an affair so he takes
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  firmly that way but the time when that possibly was the case was also the time when CS Lewis was
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  an atheist and it does also then move on to he's definitely her carer in a non sexualized way
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  in late the night she's much more like a mother figure so who knows what really happened in the
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  1920s she was the mother of someone he was served alongside in the war and he'd promised to look
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  after her so he yes and her daughter in his household so that's the back. Do you want to know
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  what do I think about it? Okay tell us Andrew. I like to think and you know this is me having
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  you know particularly being single for so long myself a bit of a bit of a romantic and heart
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  I like to think that and I think a lot of the evidence points to that I think they were lovers
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  especially in the in the early days and if they were within if they were in the early days where
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  maybe it never stopped but I think you're right in terms of that yes the relationship did change
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  later on into he was more of a a carer for Mrs. Moore and there was certainly a lot of you know
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  because his mother died as a she was a bit of a mother figure as well but yeah I do think the
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  evidence points to the lover thing and especially as one of CS Lewis's friends Arthur Greaves but
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  letters that at some stage that CS Lewis wrote to him huh okay why are you bringing letters?
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  Yeah and also I think what I'm absolutely about that is we shouldn't clutch our pearls so it's
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  CS Lewis is is it the fact that she's older than him that people find so if it's an affair
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  in a time when his personal morality as an atheist would have made that not a problem
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  and he changes his opinion on those things and changes behavior afterwards surely that's just
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  all part of the story but because of the age in which writing it wasn't a helpful thing to admit
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  whereas now you could probably talk about that and people would understand that gosh we're
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  complicated and we have truth in our life and we may regret some of our behaviors for different
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  reasons because our personal morality has changed I would actually not be wouldn't change my
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  opinion of CS Lewis one jot to know either way on that but also I also feel it's really not my
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  business I don't you can speculate yeah no I like I see it as a yeah if he was romantic
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  being involved with her I'm very happy for him there where it would be a problem for me would be if
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  if there's a hypocrisy involved so if the if the affair carries on he becomes a Christian
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  and preaches morality and doesn't admit to you know when there's the difference between the
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  public self and the private self anybody any writer politician whatever that's where the problem is
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  I don't think the 1920s Lewis presents us with that gap you know it doesn't worry me so I think
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  I'm gonna go and probably download that I would like to listen to that I think it'd be a
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  biography I'd actually really enjoy so thank you for bringing that to my attention oh no worries
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  and I'd love to know what your thoughts when you finish reading it yeah yeah so moving on from
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  the CS Lewis is like for now going to look at the Inklings book is this the one by our friend
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  Humphrey Carpenter that you've been listening it is yes so we're circling back this is the book
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  that deals with both Tolkien and Lewis how did you enjoy the Inklings biography because it's an
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  unusual thing to do a biography of a group as opposed to an individual yes yes I really liked it
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  I thought it was done very well it was interesting because this is in a in a very summarized version
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  it's pretty much most of it is Humphrey Carpenter's in in one sense Humphrey Carpenter's
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  biography of CS Lewis because a lot of it centers around CS Lewis and he explains his
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  rational for the doing it that way is because you know Lewis was sort of the founder and the
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  driving force behind the Inklings but you know and he does say that there's there's not too much
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  about Tolkien because I've written a whole other biography about Tolkien but he does include
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  little bits and pieces and then he he goes on to discuss Charles Williams quite quite a bit
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  on Charles Williams as well which I don't know too much about Charles Williams and I confess I
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  haven't yet read any of his books I think I'd like to at some stage get round to it but yeah do
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  know there a bit there a bit out there and there a bit different which definitely a bit out there
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  so just going back for I wanted to talk about that actually I will do that at the end but going
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  back to the Inklings biography it is the source for the conversation the famous conversation
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  if ever you see that reference it's this biography that reconstructs what that conversation
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  was about and it's a conversation that took place in about 1931 1930 I can't remember the
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  exact date should I should be able to think it's the 1931 between CS Lewis Tolkien and I think
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  it's you go to Heisen yes it is walking around absence walk now absence walk if anyone's been
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  to modeling college in Oxford you go over the Jawel River and it's all within college grounds it's
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  a circular walk the quite a stretch of the legs but all within the college grounds and it's
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  sort of post-prandial walk that you could do for about half an hour oh okay yeah so it's a lovely walk
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  and let's in oh so you go it's in the college grounds you're basically walking around some of the
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  fields where they keep the herd of deer so it's so Oxford isn't it I yeah I am so imagine you've
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  got a herd of deer grazing in the middle and you walk round it and this big circular walk
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  and it's for academic conversations because you're not crossing any road sorry anything like that
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  you can just have a sustained conversation so it's a lovely walk you can do it if you can visit the
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  college you you can go and do that walk yourself and it's on this part that they have the conversation
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  which moves CS Lewis to understanding that God can communicate to us through myths and that the
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  difference between Jesus coming and dying of God that dies and the myths of dying gods is that
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  one is a true myth and the others are a way of God communicating the story idea they're preparing
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  the ground that's a that's a summary of of that conversation but it's summarized much better in
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  the the inkling's biography but that's where it comes from so if you want to find out about that
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  conversation you need to read this biography yes yeah it was very interesting here all about all of
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  that and yeah get a deeper understanding of how Tolkien and Dyson were able to show CS Lewis and
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  bring him to fully embrace Christianity and then of course we you know if it wasn't for that
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  conversation we wouldn't have Narnia and so many other enjoyable writing apologetics on Christianity
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  yeah it was a definite inflection point I think he said he was a dayer staffed
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  of that and then it took a while to become a Christian it was wasn't it he was in a on a bus
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  there's some funny throwaway comment where he says I I started at one end of the bus as not a
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  Christian yeah I tell my God off yeah it's enough okay so um I that sounds like we recommend all
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  of those as a lesson if you're wanting I mean people love listening whilst going out and about
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  and walking these days so these are all good take with you and the other thing that I will say
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  about that in things biography is you know me as well being loving history being a bit of a
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  historian hungry carpenter does the same thing he did in the Tolkien biography where he gives
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  a detailed outline like he did with a day of in Tolkien's life he does a detailed reconstruction of
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  what an interesting meeting would have been like and you know he he goes on into conversations
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  that they not the exact conversations but a detail of the most like some of the most likely
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  topics they would have talked about and really you know I was particularly interested in
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  those conversations but also you know the having joined writing groups and stuff as well
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  knowing okay well what time did they start what time did they finish what did they you know
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  what did they eat or drink etc so really really enjoyed that those reconstructions
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  so just thinking about the in clings biography obviously we've got other
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  other people have now tackled the in clings like Diana Glyar for example and what do you think
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  I think carpenter was first in the field what do you think is not in there what where else would
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  you have wanted to know more about the in clings well he you know he sticks to obviously the
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  main three Tolkien Lewis and Williams which is fine but he he doesn't really say he gives a very
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  brief overview of Hugo Dyson's life and I think there was a couple of other I can't remember
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  there might have been there was a few other names you know people that joined the in clings that
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  I think he said even less about that yeah you know it I would have liked to know a bit more
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  considering it was covering all the in clings but I suppose you know he you have to stop
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  somewhere because it would have been a very long book otherwise but and and the other thing was
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  he didn't really say too much you know he spoke a lot about Sirs Lewis's death but he
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  I was again interested to know okay well you know when did when and how did Hugo Dyson pass
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  away and yeah talk a bit about Sirs Lewis's brother Warnie Lewis as well but again yeah some
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  of the other in clings it didn't really say too much another positive thing I liked about it was
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  about the the in clings was talking in detail a bit about Sirs Lewis's walking holidays that
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  he and the in clings went on and Tolkien didn't always attend but he attended a couple of them
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  so yeah I thought that was very interesting and enjoyable to know about that that aspect of their
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  friendship as well yeah sorry to think they're walking because particularly for Tolkien so much
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  these books are about walking yeah I think I'm going on a walking on a date with the in clings right
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  so just to round us off I wanted to make some recommendations and you have queued me perfectly
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  for one of them which is that I was digging around before even coming to talk to you about
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  what was available on other in clings writers and there are a couple of audiobooks of Charles
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  Williams's work voiced by David Pickering the two that I saw that may be more but the two I saw
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  were the greater trumps which is one of the most fascinating of his books is it's a good place
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  to start and also all Hallows Eve which is like a ghost story they're both read by David Pickering
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  and he has a lovely voice they've been out in 2021 so I'm a bit late to the party on this but
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  I think I'm going to I haven't yet listened to them I've listened to the sample I've read both
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  for them long form but I'm going to definitely download those so there you are Andrew if you want
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  to find out just out out there Charles Williams it Charles Williams the audiobooks are now coming
• 26:54
  through so that you can access them oh good and I'd love to talk about your what you think of them
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  when you've had a listen yes well he I'm pretty sure he Charles Williams read samples of
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  Hallows Eve to the in things yes he would have done yeah so thank you so much Andrew thank you
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  for joining us and it's great fun always talk talk to you and I look forward to talking again
• 27:23
  when we've done a bit more listening yeah it's good and as always thank you for having me
• 27:27
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