Latest / Love Conquers Fear / #35: From Extinction to Ascension: Choosing Our Path Amid Extreme Abundance – Pippa Malmgren

Transcript

#35: From Extinction to Ascension: Choosing Our Path Amid Extreme Abundance – Pippa Malmgren · Love Conquers Fear

• 0:00
  We have a choice with all this abundance we can spiral down
• 0:04
  into a winner takes all massive competition for I have to have
• 0:10
  more or more than you. This is an extinction path.
• 0:14
  Humanity can go extinct trying to have more when you have
• 0:18
  abundance. So the other direction is you
• 0:20
  ascend, you transcend, and I would argue you move into the
• 0:25
  human psyche to find your true gifts, your true loves,
• 0:29
  materials, imperial things are so easily met that you don't
• 0:32
  really have a struggle for that anymore.
• 0:38
  Hey everyone, welcome back to the Love Conquers Fear podcast.
• 0:42
  For me, this is the start of the new year.
• 0:44
  I know that by the time you listen to this or watch it,
• 0:48
  it'll be towards the end of January, but I just want to
• 0:52
  recap a couple of things. We had an amazing, amazing trip
• 0:56
  to Baton, as you saw on episode 27, where I read the Lattice as
• 1:02
  a gift to all of the podcast subscribers and discussed my
• 1:06
  science fiction novella there. We also just got back from a
• 1:10
  skiing trip. Conditions weren't perfect, but
• 1:12
  it was fun to take my niece for her first ski trip, as well as
• 1:18
  my oldest daughter's best friend for her first ski trip.
• 1:21
  And my daughter and I've been skiing a number of times.
• 1:25
  So we had a great, great time doing that.
• 1:28
  And during the break, I did finish Dan Brown's book, The
• 1:32
  Secret of Secrets. I'm a big Dan Brown fan.
• 1:35
  I'll, I'll tell you that for those of you that the
• 1:39
  exploration of the nature of consciousness is new, you'll
• 1:43
  really enjoy it. He really meticulously
• 1:47
  researches the science and the latest art of the science around
• 1:52
  the topic of consciousness. And, and so he's doing a great
• 1:55
  service for humanity in that way, discussing non local
• 1:58
  consciousness similar to the Telepathy Tapes.
• 2:01
  Season 2 of that just wrapped up and I just finished that as
• 2:05
  well. That is a fantastic season.
• 2:09
  I loved both seasons of that podcast.
• 2:12
  I'll tell you, Dan Brown's book for me was a little long and
• 2:16
  tedious. I really, I really enjoyed it
• 2:19
  overall. But while it's it's a long one,
• 2:22
  it's over 600 pages long. He does a very, very good job of
• 2:27
  character development. Maybe a little bit too much, but
• 2:31
  it is a great recap for the Soul quest that I've been on, you
• 2:36
  know, having read 55 books last year in 2025, really trying to
• 2:42
  decode what our reality is, what is the nature of consciousness?
• 2:47
  How are we going to make it to abundance?
• 2:50
  Diving into AI and quantum physics as well.
• 2:54
  And that of course, is what this podcast is all about.
• 2:57
  I launched this podcast on the second day of Rosh Hashanah last
• 3:02
  year on September 24th. It is my love letter to humanity
• 3:08
  and I absolutely love all of the messages that I've been getting
• 3:12
  from from you as the listeners who really are having a heart
• 3:18
  shift in your life and are diving into various books that I
• 3:22
  recommend on the podcast and sharing those with me or just
• 3:26
  giving me a lot of love for the Lattice.
• 3:28
  I also right before we left for Bhutan, we I finished writing
• 3:35
  love conquer sphere with the subtitle humanity, AI and the
• 3:39
  age of abundance for all. It's off to the publisher now
• 3:42
  and then, the editing process. Bhutan actually is going to be
• 3:45
  one of the case studies at the end of the book on how humanity
• 3:49
  could have that heart shift and what the future model for part
• 3:52
  of humanity could look like. That is the most spiritual
• 3:57
  country I've been to. The thing about Bhutan that you
• 4:01
  should know is that it's not a place that really is celebrating
• 4:06
  just what it was. It is still the place that it
• 4:11
  was. So you go into these ancient
• 4:13
  temples that are over 400 years old, and they're still used
• 4:17
  every bit as much today. It's country around 700,000
• 4:21
  people. It's deeply rooted in Buddhism,
• 4:24
  you know, starting with the king and the queen as well, who live
• 4:27
  in a very modest palace. You know, the populace was like,
• 4:31
  you should buy something much bigger or build something much
• 4:34
  bigger. And they're like, this is all we
• 4:36
  need. And they really spend a ton of
• 4:39
  time with the people doing the work.
• 4:43
  And it's a, it's a very communal place.
• 4:47
  It's very, very different from a lot of the places that I visited
• 4:52
  where it's really celebrating what was as opposed to what is
• 4:57
  and what was. So I think that it's an
• 5:01
  interesting model for the future of humanity once we get to
• 5:04
  abundance, true abundance, where even countries like Chad, you
• 5:08
  know, which has AGDP of $660 a person versus our 85,800 in the
• 5:13
  US have abundance that they can't even fathom today.
• 5:19
  You know, what is humanity going to do at that point?
• 5:23
  And I think it'll allow us to be hyper creative.
• 5:26
  There will be very ambitious people like me that want to go
• 5:30
  out there and, you know, visit the stars.
• 5:33
  And we have an infinite universe as far as we know.
• 5:36
  It certainly would be interesting if it did have a
• 5:38
  boundary at some point. But I think it's completely
• 5:41
  infinite. And we will never run out of
• 5:45
  ideas and things to do as humanity.
• 5:48
  But there will be some parts of humanity that want to live more
• 5:51
  like the Bhutanese and want to just live in a very communal
• 5:54
  fashion and just have deep, deep presence and love with each
• 5:58
  other. And that's going to be great
• 6:00
  too. And they're going to have that
• 6:02
  opportunity to really do that. So today, I'm really excited to
• 6:06
  have a guest on that. Jason Karp recommended.
• 6:11
  Jason Karp is one of my best friends.
• 6:13
  He was on Episode 3 talking about our food system as well as
• 6:19
  many other topics. He's a very fascinating
• 6:22
  entrepreneur, investor. He is the majority owner of True
• 6:28
  Food Kitchen, which actually we're investors in, and he is.
• 6:33
  He's an amazing person. And when he told me I really
• 6:36
  needed to meet Pippa Mulgan, I knew it was a heck yes after
• 6:42
  diving into her work. So welcome, Pita.
• 6:44
  Yeah. So good to have you here.
• 6:46
  Thank. You so much for having me.
• 6:47
  Yeah, you and I are birds of a feather.
• 6:49
  See you SO. Yeah, you know, I've, I've, I've
• 6:51
  watched quite, quite a bit of your talks.
• 6:53
  Maybe we could start out with your thesis on abundance.
• 6:58
  You know, I, I'm really doing this project as my loveloader to
• 7:01
  humanity. I think that it's in your in my
• 7:05
  lifetime where we're going to get to true abundance through
• 7:09
  energy, food, water. And I think that that's going to
• 7:14
  be a forcing function for humanity to choose whether or
• 7:19
  not we want to play, continue to play the 0 sum scarcity fear
• 7:24
  based game or really embrace that that future.
• 7:29
  And I'm 95% certain that we embrace it.
• 7:32
  There's real risk that you've discussed on, on talks like
• 7:36
  nuclear weapons, and I've discussed that on this podcast.
• 7:40
  So there's no guarantees we're going to make it, but I think
• 7:43
  that when push comes to shove, we'll make the right choice.
• 7:46
  But maybe we just start with your thesis on how we get to
• 7:49
  abundance, because it's fascinating that your your
• 7:51
  discussion about how we get there through space alone is
• 7:54
  fascinating. Yeah, absolutely.
• 7:56
  So I'm an economist at my core. And so when I'm I'm constantly
• 8:01
  scanning the horizon of the world economy, trying to see,
• 8:04
  you know, where is the next big thing, you know, how are we
• 8:06
  going to grow? And in recent to years, I've
• 8:08
  been so struck that there are, I think, 4 cardinal directions
• 8:13
  that we're expanding in, and each one of them represents
• 8:18
  abundance. So space is 1.
• 8:20
  And I think that's one of the most important ones.
• 8:23
  And people don't understand we're not going into space
• 8:26
  because it's billionaires joyriding, which is what a lot
• 8:29
  of people think. It's really about unlimited
• 8:32
  energy. And we just saw the Japanese
• 8:35
  space agency test the idea that you can beam solar energy from
• 8:41
  space to any power grid on Earth safely and effectively only just
• 8:47
  like 2 weeks ago. Yeah, that's amazing.
• 8:49
  But other big organizations? You were talking about that a
• 8:51
  year ago, so you were. You were seeing it, seeing it
• 8:53
  early on. Well, Airbus, Caltech, a lot of
• 8:56
  big organizations have been doing the really hard work.
• 9:00
  So that's now a thing. Now we have to learn how to
• 9:03
  scale it. But I think the engineering
• 9:06
  problem has been addressed. The Chinese are currently
• 9:08
  building this massive facility in orbit.
• 9:12
  They're calling it the Three Gorges Dam of Space, after the
• 9:16
  Three Gorges Dam on Earth, which is the biggest dam that exists
• 9:19
  on Earth that is in China. And same thing, this idea that
• 9:24
  you can just have energy anytime you want it because the sun
• 9:27
  never goes down in space and they just beam it to Earth
• 9:31
  mainly in the form of radio waves.
• 9:33
  So it's safe. So that's one.
• 9:36
  But also space represents unlimited Internet connectivity.
• 9:41
  And we're building all these mega constellations of
• 9:43
  satellites so you no longer have to put a wire in the ground.
• 9:46
  And you can have world class Internet anywhere, anytime,
• 9:50
  which lifts the value of every square inch on Earth, makes it
• 9:53
  easier to run a business from anywhere and distribute economic
• 9:58
  activity more easily. And then maybe the most sci-fi
• 10:02
  and the furthest out in space is mining, refining and
• 10:08
  manufacturing. So there's, I love the story of
• 10:11
  this one asteroid called Psyche, which is the center of a Jet
• 10:16
  Propulsion lab mission, the Psyche mission.
• 10:18
  And they're going there because it contains so much of all the
• 10:22
  things that we need to make any kind of technological item from
• 10:26
  a phone to an MRI scanner that you don't need to RIP Earth up
• 10:31
  anymore. You can actually go and retrieve
• 10:35
  these what we call rare earth minerals here.
• 10:38
  And I think we're going to have to rename them ubiquitous space
• 10:41
  minerals because there isn't going to be a limit.
• 10:43
  They're they're all over the place.
• 10:46
  They estimate that the value of this one asteroid is 90 times
• 10:52
  the annual value of the whole world economy.
• 10:54
  Yeah, right. Like, like the scale is
• 10:57
  incredible. And that's just one.
• 10:58
  I saw in one of your talks that that would be a billion dollars
• 11:02
  a person. If you were to distribute to
• 11:04
  everybody on Earth, which unfortunately nobody seems ready
• 11:07
  to do, but if you were, that's that's the magnitude.
• 11:10
  OK. So that's of what I so the four
• 11:12
  cardinal directions I call up, down, in and out.
• 11:15
  So that we've just done up, but not all of up because up starts
• 11:20
  from the ground. And this is an important story.
• 11:22
  And we're here in Austin. We're actually only about maybe
• 11:24
  half an hour away from a really good example of the future is
• 11:29
  already here. This company called Icon, which
• 11:33
  has actually been commissioned by NASA to build the first
• 11:36
  structures on the moon because they specialize in 3D printing
• 11:40
  buildings. Yeah, well, Jason's a good
• 11:41
  friend of mine there you. Go.
• 11:42
  Oh well, I'd love to go. Meet.
• 11:44
  Oh, I can easily arrange that. It's amazing.
• 11:47
  Yeah. So 3D printed, not just homes,
• 11:50
  but entire neighborhoods. And what's important is
• 11:53
  especially in a time of fear, since this is the core of where
• 11:56
  we start with your podcast, is the people are so afraid that
• 12:01
  I'm going to lose my job or AI is going to take my job, but
• 12:05
  they're not thinking about what is AI going to give me.
• 12:09
  And one of the things going to give us, we've already got up
• 12:11
  the road, which is entirely 3D printed neighborhood.
• 12:15
  So we can now build homes in the matter of like a week.
• 12:19
  And they're equipped with Tesla Powerwall.
• 12:24
  So now not only is all your energy free, but you sell your
• 12:29
  energy back to the grid. So now your house is paying your
• 12:32
  mortgage for you. So it's important because this
• 12:36
  idea that we may not need to have a job to pay for the usual
• 12:41
  stuff of the mortgage and the energy because it's now paying
• 12:44
  for itself. That's a huge mind shift.
• 12:47
  But I think we're seeing this in modular housing.
• 12:50
  And then of course, we have everything happening in in
• 12:52
  between aviation, The Concorde is coming back.
• 12:56
  We're going to be doing London, New York and an hour, yeah,
• 12:59
  supersonic delivery of packages anywhere on Earth in an hour by
• 13:04
  going up into space and back down again.
• 13:06
  So the up economy is literally abundance.
• 13:11
  Then we go down. Down is atomic, subatomic, nano,
• 13:19
  but it's also regeneration of the dirt food.
• 13:24
  It is the blue ocean economy. It's going deep into Earth
• 13:29
  itself. And as we go down, there's also
• 13:34
  this incredible abundance. And down is where you also start
• 13:39
  to understand we're in a moment of a real revolution in the
• 13:42
  course of human history, because we usually in the past had to
• 13:45
  start with a material like wood, and we would shape it into a
• 13:49
  chair as we're sitting in. But today you can start with
• 13:53
  your imagination of what material would I like to create?
• 13:56
  What characteristics would it have?
• 13:58
  And now we can create it atom by atom by atom, because we are
• 14:02
  effectively able to paint reality into being in a lab
• 14:06
  today. So this is a function of
• 14:08
  supercomputing AI, and it's a. Did you ever read The Diamond
• 14:12
  Age by Neil Stephenson? No.
• 14:14
  Oh my gosh. So.
• 14:15
  OK, I will now. Oh, you, you know who he is.
• 14:17
  Right now, Yeah, yeah, yeah, that.
• 14:19
  I've read some of his other stuff.
• 14:21
  It was so prescient. It was it was all about
• 14:23
  nanotech. And it starts out with with a
• 14:28
  story about one of the engineers throwing a party for his
• 14:31
  daughter. And there's like unicorns and
• 14:33
  all of this stuff in real life at the party, but they're just
• 14:36
  kind of nano assembled robots and then they disassemble
• 14:41
  afterwards. Well, this is exactly what's
• 14:43
  happening with artificial intelligence currently.
• 14:46
  And you know, I work in in AI, I'm part of C10 Labs, which has
• 14:49
  rolled out of the MIT Media Lab. So I get a bit of a front row
• 14:53
  seat on what's going on. And currently, AI is words on a
• 14:57
  screen, but it's about to leap off that screen and be physical.
• 15:02
  And this is exactly what you're describing.
• 15:04
  You assemble something that you need for the duration you need
• 15:08
  it, and then it disassembles. And so, yeah, this is so when we
• 15:12
  go down, we see the same level of extraordinary unlimited
• 15:16
  abundance, literally. And you?
• 15:19
  Count Geothermal. And yes, absolutely, yeah.
• 15:22
  And that's down. Who, who lives here in Austin is
• 15:24
  super into that? You know, he's the founder of
• 15:26
  Three Com spent a lot of time at UT for the last decade and his
• 15:30
  next decade he's focused on geothermal.
• 15:32
  My family are Swedish and Danish.
• 15:34
  You know, everybody in this in Scandinavia just puts a pipe in
• 15:38
  the ground and the house has heat.
• 15:40
  Now you have to have the right Earth mantle to do this, but
• 15:45
  it's doable. So yeah, these are all great
• 15:47
  examples. And then just to finish, I know
• 15:50
  it's slightly long, but I think it helps if you understand we've
• 15:53
  got up, we've got down in is equally extraordinary where
• 15:57
  we're going in the human body. And I'll just a quick example,
• 16:02
  you know, we're all used to HP printers printing documents.
• 16:06
  Yeah, now they have bio ink printers where they can take a
• 16:10
  blood draw, isolate a stem cell, and if you get a burn on your
• 16:14
  arm, they can create your own tissue and 3D printed on to you,
• 16:18
  which means we're not so far away from 3D printing your
• 16:21
  organs, which is going to massively increase longevity
• 16:25
  anyway, the end is also almost endless in terms of uplifting
• 16:31
  human health. And I think there's there are
• 16:35
  also psychological issues associated with how do we handle
• 16:39
  abundance, which we'll come to. But the last bit is out, which
• 16:43
  is all the borderless spaces. So that's AI and supercomputing
• 16:47
  and the cloud and everything that doesn't have a board, AI
• 16:51
  agents, all the things that don't have a border.
• 16:53
  These things create a kind of, in my mind, like a toroidal
• 16:58
  sphere of activity because they all interlink and they create
• 17:03
  this dynamism so that abundance is not like 10 years away or 20
• 17:09
  years away. It's actually already right
• 17:12
  here, but we don't recognize it yet.
• 17:15
  And I think to your point, when I'm writing about this, I'm
• 17:19
  writing a book right now where I open with this.
• 17:22
  I then also think like Earth, it's on an axis.
• 17:25
  And this is, I dare say, a spiritual axis.
• 17:30
  And I'm finding as an economist, it's kind of slightly hard to
• 17:32
  lean into that because everyone's like, wait, why?
• 17:35
  You're a specialist in geopolitics and world economy.
• 17:38
  But the spiritual nature of this axis is very simple.
• 17:43
  It's what you said at the beginning.
• 17:45
  We have a choice with all this abundance, we can spiral down
• 17:50
  into a winner takes all massive competition for I have to have
• 17:56
  more or more than you. And if you have abundance, then
• 18:02
  that's abundantly fueled. And that might be what I don't
• 18:07
  know, if you know the philosopher Daniel
• 18:08
  Schmachtenberger, she's super interesting, very brilliant.
• 18:12
  And he basically says this is an extinction path.
• 18:16
  Humanity can go extinct trying to have more when you have
• 18:20
  abundance, right? So the other direction is you
• 18:24
  ascend, you transcend, and I would argue you incend, you move
• 18:31
  into the human psyche to find your true gifts, your true
• 18:36
  loves, that material things are so easily met that you don't
• 18:41
  really have to struggle for that anymore.
• 18:44
  The bigger struggle is exactly what they do in Bhutan, which is
• 18:47
  the inner is, is combining the inner goals, right?
• 18:52
  And that is a spiritual path that our modern society is not
• 18:56
  very well equipped most people to comprehend, let alone engage
• 19:02
  in. Yeah, yeah.
• 19:03
  You know, I've, I've, I've covered my thesis on why that's
• 19:08
  the case. And one of the, one of the
• 19:12
  things I like to point out is that out of our entire
• 19:16
  evolutionary existence as Homo sapiens, which we've been around
• 19:20
  for around 300,000 years, you know, we're derivative of
• 19:22
  hominids which have been around for 4,000,000 years.
• 19:26
  We've only had electricity for .1% of the time.
• 19:29
  So, you know, we have had 99.9% of the time without electricity,
• 19:35
  and they're, of course, still countries that don't have
• 19:38
  electricity today. But if you think about almost
• 19:41
  all the wars, maybe all the wars that have been fought, it has
• 19:45
  tended to be about land. You know, it's tended to be
• 19:48
  about scarcity and resources, you know, water, et cetera.
• 19:53
  So once those are removed, it you know that technology has
• 19:58
  been a major, major catalyst for humanity to evolve.
• 20:04
  You know, in in this country, there was a time where we
• 20:07
  rationalize having slaves and we did it pre industrial
• 20:11
  revolution. And the industrial revolution
• 20:14
  really forced us to make a choice.
• 20:18
  You know, do we want to use machines or do we want to
• 20:20
  continue to use human labor? And obviously we made the right
• 20:23
  choice. And there was a whole civil war
• 20:25
  and everything else to get there because of the fear of losing
• 20:29
  that labor source. And I think that what's going to
• 20:35
  happen in this acceleration in our lifetime, you know, we are
• 20:39
  in the exponentials of exponentials, is it is going to
• 20:42
  force humanity to make this choice.
• 20:45
  And it actually for for me personally, it, you know, I
• 20:48
  wrote about it in the lattice, you know, my science fiction
• 20:51
  novella, which I gave you a copy of today.
• 20:53
  But for me personally, it came in a psychedelic journey back
• 20:58
  last year where I was shown that this is really God's final exam
• 21:05
  for humanity. And I know that that feels very
• 21:07
  heavy. I'm very, like I said, I'm 95%
• 21:10
  certain that we make it, but that, you know, God is working
• 21:15
  through us in terms of we're the hands, but we get divine
• 21:20
  inspiration all the time from source.
• 21:23
  And it's up to us to leverage that abundance in a way where
• 21:30
  with great power comes great responsibility, where we
• 21:33
  leverage it for everyone, as opposed to continue to play the
• 21:36
  scarcity game. And we're gonna, we're gonna
• 21:38
  manifest technology so powerful that we're gonna have no choice
• 21:43
  but to but to make the right choice.
• 21:47
  You know, it's gonna force us, I think, to make the right choice.
• 21:50
  Yeah, exactly. And I see that already in the
• 21:54
  world of geopolitics. I see the leaders of the
• 21:58
  superpower. So that's the US, China, Russia.
• 22:04
  They are, as we know we're we're kind of on the brink of maybe
• 22:09
  just drifting into a World War Three type scenario of Ukraine
• 22:15
  metastasizing into something much larger and much more
• 22:18
  difficult. But they're all kind of look at
• 22:20
  each other going the power of the weapon systems that now
• 22:24
  exist, the dwarfs, what we had during the Cuban Missile Crisis.
• 22:29
  And so nobody. So yeah, very much everyone's
• 22:33
  like maybe there's another way. And you can feel that as you, I
• 22:39
  mean, for people like me that watch the negotiation process
• 22:42
  very closely. And it sounds weird because
• 22:45
  you're like, no, but why wouldn't one of them just, you
• 22:47
  know, go for it. But my dad actually was very
• 22:53
  deeply involved in the Cuban Missile Crisis.
• 22:55
  He was, as a young man, ended up as a liaison between the White
• 23:01
  House and the Joint Chiefs, so he was smack in the middle of
• 23:04
  it. He worked for JFK.
• 23:06
  Right, He did. Yeah.
• 23:07
  He worked for Kennedy, Johnson, Nixon, Ford and he was very
• 23:10
  close with Carter as well and advised many Heads of Government
• 23:13
  around the world and taught me a lot about how to think, you
• 23:17
  know, And he said something to me once that's stuck with me
• 23:21
  ever since. He said, you know, there was a
• 23:25
  moment where we really thought we were down to a three or four
• 23:28
  hours and then it was literally going to be the end of the
• 23:31
  world. All of our calculations said
• 23:34
  that like a billion people would be dead if we hit the button.
• 23:39
  And there were people who wanted to hit that button on the US
• 23:42
  side. And President Kennedy really
• 23:45
  didn't want that to happen as there was a big argument, big
• 23:48
  fight. Anyway, Dad said it was
• 23:50
  fascinating in those moments. There was one guy around the
• 23:54
  table who said who asked for the phone when he realized how close
• 23:59
  and called his wife and said get the kids in the car and drive to
• 24:03
  Maine and then hung up. And that kind of made everybody
• 24:08
  realize how serious this was. And they started a conversation
• 24:12
  about, well, could. Have made that call in public
• 24:13
  that pregnant that he. Exactly.
• 24:17
  And they had this conversation about, well, OK, if we're going
• 24:21
  to hit the Russians, where are we going to hit Moscow,
• 24:25
  obviously. And my dad and some others said,
• 24:28
  but if we hit Moscow, there's no one to call.
• 24:31
  We can't negotiate with anyone afterwards.
• 24:33
  Like there's no phone number. So I went, yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 24:36
  And then somebody else said, and maybe we could hint to the
• 24:40
  Russians that we won't hit Moscow and then they won't hit
• 24:43
  Washington. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 24:45
  The guy asked for the phone again, calls.
• 24:46
  Wife says it's OK, honey, you don't have to go, right, Right.
• 24:49
  And it's this what it is, is my dad said when it's really down
• 24:53
  to the crunch, no one wants to never see their loved ones
• 24:58
  again. This is the human quality that
• 25:01
  appears in these terrible moments.
• 25:04
  I think we have that happening now too.
• 25:08
  And so this is while it's a messy process, you can kind of
• 25:13
  see that even our most hardened political leaders have some what
• 25:18
  I call hardware. I always say, you know, we
• 25:21
  upgrade our hardware and our software, but with this
• 25:24
  incredible power to create or to destroy, you also need to
• 25:30
  upgrade your hardware or circumstances will force you to
• 25:34
  do it. And that's it's a spiritual
• 25:37
  elevation. It is.
• 25:39
  That happens. Yeah, I loved on one of your
• 25:42
  talks you were saying that the Cuban Missile Crisis ended with
• 25:46
  hugs. Yeah.
• 25:47
  Yeah, exactly. That that.
• 25:49
  And all crises, all geopolitical crises, they always end in a
• 25:53
  hug. I was like, what are you talking
• 25:55
  about? And I'm like, look at the
• 25:57
  photograph of Nixon and Brezhnev, because I mean, my dad
• 26:03
  helped to organize that meeting. No one imagined that the leader
• 26:06
  of the Soviet Union and the leader of the United States
• 26:08
  would even be in the same room, let alone embrace.
• 26:13
  They did. And same with same when when
• 26:18
  Kennedy was reaching out to Brezhnev.
• 26:22
  Same when I was an intern working for Ronald Reagan in the
• 26:25
  White House, when he met Gorbachev.
• 26:28
  And I mean, they practically kissed, right?
• 26:30
  It was more than a hug. And if you look at every major
• 26:35
  conflict, when it ends, even we think of Northern Ireland there,
• 26:41
  they are hugging because it's the only play.
• 26:44
  There are only two choices. Either it's the end of the
• 26:47
  world, everybody's gone, it's an extinction path, or you have to
• 26:51
  embrace, right? There's kind of no, if anything,
• 26:53
  in the middle and you're still risking going back to the fight.
• 26:57
  You have to reach the hug. Right, right.
• 27:00
  Yeah. I mean, I completely agree.
• 27:02
  And, you know, embedded in the name of the podcast, you know,
• 27:06
  Love Conquers Fear. And the book that I just
• 27:08
  finished writing is what humanity needs to do.
• 27:12
  And you know, all the spiritual texts are about that path of
• 27:17
  love conquering fear. You can't hold those emotions
• 27:22
  simultaneously. You really, if you're embracing
• 27:25
  love, then you're you're living from that place doesn't mean you
• 27:30
  can't slip into a fear state. Again, the spiritual path is one
• 27:34
  that I found takes a lot of work and constant commitment and
• 27:39
  realizing that in this earth school, we come from this place
• 27:44
  of light and love and we're souls having this this physical
• 27:47
  experience here. And you know, one of the things,
• 27:50
  Speaking of three nines, is that throughout the world we're 99.9%
• 27:55
  the same DNA wise. Yeah, I.
• 27:58
  Mean we are, you know, it's like embedded in in, in the answer is
• 28:02
  like right there. It's like we squabble so much
• 28:05
  about the .1 percent or the cultures that we've that we've
• 28:09
  set up that that lead to, you know, this scarcity mindset.
• 28:14
  Yeah, I think that's related to another aspect, which is
• 28:19
  humanity's realization that animal and plant life is also
• 28:26
  not so far away from ADNA perspective.
• 28:29
  That's right. Yeah, And we've had these
• 28:32
  notions of, you know, only we are the apex predator, only we
• 28:36
  are the have intelligence. But as our scientific processes
• 28:41
  become ever more advanced, it's becoming clear that actually it
• 28:46
  turns out that animals have very sophisticated consciousness as
• 28:52
  well. Recently I love there was the
• 28:54
  story. We we know that Aspen's
• 28:58
  communicated via the mycelium. Network that mycelium does in
• 29:01
  very sophisticated information transmitting ways.
• 29:06
  And I love this recent story. It's an AI story that they've
• 29:13
  used AI to crack one of the whale languages.
• 29:18
  I think it's the sperm whale. And what they discovered is not
• 29:22
  only do the whales have syntax, you know, it's not just sounds
• 29:28
  that might imply some commonality.
• 29:30
  It's actual grammar is there. But more importantly, the whales
• 29:34
  had nicknames for the marine biologists that were studying
• 29:38
  them. And the marine biologists were
• 29:41
  so thrilled because their ego was so stroked and they all want
• 29:45
  to know what's its nickname for me.
• 29:48
  But nobody asked, what does the whale have to say?
• 29:51
  Yeah. What is the whale saying?
• 29:53
  Yeah, No, nobody. You know, you're like, guys,
• 29:56
  seriously, this is it. I mean, whales have been around
• 29:58
  longer than humanity, right? And they live longer than most
• 30:02
  humans. So what are they talking about?
• 30:05
  Other than you, babe. Right.
• 30:06
  You know, it's a, it's a sort of an egocentric understanding of
• 30:10
  reality that now our science is forcing us to realize that we
• 30:15
  live in a commonality with all of nature.
• 30:19
  Yeah, yeah. You know, it's real interesting
• 30:22
  that you bring that up because you don't know this about me,
• 30:24
  but you know, in the Lattice, I created a derivative short story
• 30:29
  called The Whale's Dream, and it was actually episode 16 with
• 30:34
  Joel Schaefer where we're talking about the Toltecs and
• 30:36
  lucid dreaming, which inspired me.
• 30:39
  And Josh Baer, who is on episode 4 of the podcast, he's the
• 30:42
  founder of a capital factory here in town, kind of the center
• 30:46
  of entrepreneurship in Austin. He texted me the next day and he
• 30:51
  said he texted actually me and Mark Gover.
• 30:53
  I know you know. He's marvelous.
• 30:55
  And Mark was on episode 2 here and Josh texted me and Mark and
• 31:00
  he said, do you realize that whales have these brains where
• 31:06
  while they're sleeping, they're also awake?
• 31:09
  Half their brain is awake. And so I created this short
• 31:13
  story about Doctor Alexander Bliss, the the protagonist in
• 31:18
  the lattice, who's a quantum physicist who discovers the
• 31:23
  nature of our reality. You know, the 96% of the
• 31:28
  universe that we don't know what it is.
• 31:30
  You know, we call that dark energy and dark matter.
• 31:32
  We only know what 4% is. We call that matter.
• 31:35
  And I mean, it's kind of, it's kind of pretty easy to think
• 31:39
  about that we, we know so little that we don't know what 96% of
• 31:43
  our universe that at least as observable is made-up.
• 31:47
  And the, we, we learn through the whales a lot about
• 31:54
  consciousness and we, we start to protect them and call them
• 31:58
  the, the wise elders of the sea as we decode their language and
• 32:05
  really understand this, this, this fusion.
• 32:08
  And they had discovered the lattice like long before we had
• 32:12
  that we lived in that place. Actually, this is such an
• 32:15
  interesting and important point back to our core subject of how
• 32:20
  to overcome fear as we step into this abundance.
• 32:25
  In the last few years, somehow I ended up spending a lot of time
• 32:30
  with people from indigenous backgrounds in different parts
• 32:34
  of the world, not what we used to call Navajo, but they like to
• 32:40
  be called DNA now, Amazonian tribes, people who come from the
• 32:47
  indigenous peoples of the Arctic, the Sammy and
• 32:51
  Aboriginals. And one thing I learned from all
• 32:54
  of them is they all say there are two realities.
• 32:58
  There's the one where we're sitting here in this chair in
• 33:01
  your wonderful house, but this is sort of weird.
• 33:05
  We have to live in it, but we don't totally understand this.
• 33:09
  And then there's the dream space, or what the aboriginals
• 33:12
  call the song time or song lines, the DNA call it the Nog
• 33:20
  wall. And so the Dreaming space to a
• 33:26
  Westerner, an American, a European, that sounds like
• 33:31
  you're not being productive, you're not working, you're kind
• 33:35
  of goofing off. Like, you know, hurry up and
• 33:40
  start doing something is the normal reaction.
• 33:43
  Their view is that all of the important things in your life
• 33:47
  happen there, and this reality is very affected by the quality
• 33:53
  of your dreaming. And more and more I've, I've
• 33:57
  come to really appreciate this is, this is essential idea in a
• 34:03
  world where you can create new materials atom by atom by atom,
• 34:08
  where it is only imagination that you're working with.
• 34:12
  And our, what we've done for all kinds of good reasons, we've
• 34:16
  really developed our analytical capabilities.
• 34:20
  But now supercomputing, artificial intelligence,
• 34:23
  scientific advancement, it's kind of doing all that.
• 34:27
  It's effectively augmenting our analytical capabilities and
• 34:32
  allowing us to solve problems in minutes.
• 34:34
  That used to take centuries. So massive acceleration of
• 34:39
  progress from the analytical side of the mind.
• 34:43
  But it's the imaginal skills that are now crucial and the
• 34:49
  storytelling skills as well. Because to move into a new
• 34:54
  period of human history, of human evolution, it there's no
• 34:59
  point showing people some kind of a balance sheet with numbers
• 35:02
  that the analytical approach isn't going to work.
• 35:05
  We have to have stories like the story of homes exists where you
• 35:11
  can have a three bedroom house for half the price, 3D printed
• 35:14
  and energy and the mortgage pays itself.
• 35:17
  What? That's a cool story.
• 35:18
  I want to be part of that story. So we have, we have allowed our
• 35:21
  storytelling skills to atrophy or to not be very developed, and
• 35:27
  we think that dreaming isn't serious, but actually dreaming
• 35:31
  may be the most serious activity that we humans can engage in,
• 35:36
  especially at a moment like this.
• 35:38
  Yeah, yeah, I really love that. And you know, the way that I've
• 35:43
  thought about it ever since the moratorium call, actually, you
• 35:48
  know, so, so I mean, think about the day that we're recording
• 35:51
  this, we're just past the three-year mark since the launch
• 35:55
  of ChatGPT. OK, So we're just three years
• 35:57
  into this AI revolution. And I know that it's been
• 36:01
  developing for decades, etcetera.
• 36:03
  But we're we're in it in the prioritized way.
• 36:07
  I mean, when Trump announced Stargate last year on January
• 36:11
  21st at 500 billion of funding alongside Larry Ellison, Maiosi
• 36:15
  Son and Sam Altman, that was already more inflation adjusted
• 36:20
  than we spent on the space race versus the Russians.
• 36:23
  And it was more inflation adjusted than we spent on the
• 36:26
  Manhattan Project versus the Nazis and the Japanese.
• 36:30
  The time to win World War 2. And since then in 2025, there's
• 36:37
  been around $7 trillion of additional announcements.
• 36:40
  OK, so we're, we're in such unprecedented territory.
• 36:46
  And during the moratorium call, which was six months, you know,
• 36:51
  the pause, all AI development is 6 months after the launch of
• 36:54
  ChatGPT. Actually, it was even less than
• 36:57
  that. It was it was around 4 months.
• 36:59
  It was ChatGPT launched on November 30th of 2022.
• 37:03
  I think it was March of 23 the next year where it's like pause,
• 37:07
  you know, all development. When GPT 4 came out, I just
• 37:13
  thought it was ridiculous and I, I went on this podcast here in
• 37:17
  Austin called the Austin next podcast with Worley, who was on
• 37:21
  this podcast as well. He's a quantum computing expert,
• 37:24
  lives here in Austin. You should definitely meet him
• 37:26
  if you don't know him. He's fascinating.
• 37:28
  And, you know, we were just like, this is so crazy.
• 37:32
  I mean, it, it, it would be like, you know, back in the days
• 37:36
  where we discovered fire, you know, your, your, your tribe
• 37:39
  discovers fire. And it's like, no, sorry, Brett,
• 37:41
  you, you don't get it. You know, and some things are so
• 37:45
  good and so powerful at shattering the barrier to
• 37:50
  creativity that there must have for humanity.
• 37:53
  And we're in that. We're in that moment now where
• 37:57
  humanity is prioritizing this like never before.
• 38:00
  There's nothing that we've prioritized with as much energy,
• 38:03
  with as much time, with as much money.
• 38:06
  And I think that there's, there's a number of reasons why
• 38:10
  we're doing that. I think there's this deep hope.
• 38:12
  You know, we're talking about a future where we can see the end
• 38:16
  of disease. You know, what's happened with
• 38:18
  deep mine and the alpha fold breakthrough, which demosis of
• 38:21
  this one, a Nobel Prize for, is just the beginning.
• 38:25
  You know, we'll have an alpha for material sciences that you,
• 38:30
  you talked about solar energy. I think the stat is that if we
• 38:35
  could just capture 18 seconds of the sun's rays that fall on the
• 38:38
  Earth, it would power the world's energy needs for over a
• 38:41
  year. We solved that.
• 38:43
  It solved so much. I mean, then you can desalinate
• 38:46
  all you want. You could have floating cities.
• 38:48
  And there's just all types of things that you could do to
• 38:52
  create, you know, true, true abundance.
• 38:56
  And, you know, the way I look at it is like God put the sun there
• 39:00
  staring us in the face and it's like, here it is.
• 39:03
  It's the, it's the bright, you know, fusion reactor that you
• 39:06
  can just plug into. You just need to figure it out.
• 39:10
  And so, you know, we're we're in this time where that barrier to
• 39:16
  creativity is just being shattered like we've never seen.
• 39:20
  And, and I think it's going to lead to a new renaissance
• 39:22
  period. 100% what I'm finding so fascinating is some of these
• 39:26
  announcements or people are missing them they because they
• 39:31
  don't understand, I guess. But even like sophisticated
• 39:35
  people running global businesses, you know, C-Suite
• 39:38
  folks. So one of them has just
• 39:40
  happened, which is the announcement about the Genesis
• 39:44
  mission here in the United States, which effectively is all
• 39:48
  the national labs. So Los Alamos, Lawrence
• 39:51
  Livermore, the Sandia National Labs, all these labs where the
• 39:56
  cutting edge research has been happening for decades, but
• 39:59
  everything's been classified. It's all been behind closed
• 40:02
  doors. They're basically opening the
• 40:05
  labs and they're going to let the classified scientists and
• 40:08
  the classified technology out into public private partnerships
• 40:13
  and allow non classified scientists in.
• 40:16
  And then that was followed by the president gave a speech to
• 40:22
  the military industrial complex. Basically you guys have been
• 40:25
  optimizing for your own. Payouts for your rising share
• 40:29
  price and for your share buybacks.
• 40:32
  You're not optimizing for the public or or even for preventing
• 40:38
  wars, which is really what defense equipment should do,
• 40:41
  right? By the time you're having a war,
• 40:42
  something's gone wrong. The whole point of investing in
• 40:45
  defense equipment is that everybody's too scared to risk
• 40:49
  it. So if that's not working, then
• 40:51
  we're going to open it all up. And so we're going to see a
• 40:54
  massive acceleration. I think nuclear fusion is one of
• 40:59
  those areas. I've been working on a nuclear
• 41:01
  fusion deal here in the United States, so I got a little close
• 41:04
  to that. And you get the feeling, too,
• 41:07
  that there's been a strategy of keeping a lot of that research
• 41:12
  behind a classified wall because everybody was so worried that,
• 41:16
  you know, you can't have a kid building some atomic thing in
• 41:20
  their garage, right? It's obvious that's dangerous,
• 41:23
  but then expanding that notion that you also can't have a
• 41:26
  teenager build an AI because that's dangerous.
• 41:29
  But the fact is that every teenager has a supercomputer in
• 41:33
  their pocket, which has more computational power that we
• 41:36
  needed to get a human on the moon in the 1st place.
• 41:38
  And they are knowing how to use it and they are cracking the
• 41:42
  codes and they are discovering things.
• 41:45
  And it's an incredible leap forward.
• 41:47
  And we just mustn't forget as well that I want to just echo
• 41:50
  something you said before. What is it to be human?
• 41:54
  One thing about being human is this lovely line.
• 41:57
  I don't remember where it's from, but that we are the means
• 42:00
  by which the universe comes to know itself, right?
• 42:04
  We're the ultimate novelty seeking machine, as it were, but
• 42:09
  we're not just a machine, we're also this human element.
• 42:13
  But we love curiosity, we love exploring, we love trying stuff
• 42:18
  out, and eventually we solve problems.
• 42:22
  And what's happening is we're solving problems at an
• 42:25
  exponential rate right now. So it's super exciting.
• 42:29
  Yeah, yeah, it's, it's the most exciting time to be alive.
• 42:34
  It is one where it's not without its risk to and I know that you
• 42:39
  you focus on that and your work and and have a lot more
• 42:43
  geopolitical knowledge than than I do.
• 42:47
  But you know, it's, it's, it's pretty, it's, it's pretty
• 42:49
  shocking to just look at the fact, you know, we talked about
• 42:53
  the Cuban missile Crisis, that, you know, there's around 13,000
• 42:57
  nuclear weapons today. And it doesn't take much
• 43:02
  analysis, especially with things like trap GPT and clawed to, to
• 43:05
  do this. It would take only 2% of today's
• 43:10
  nuclear arsenal in the world to destroy all the major and medium
• 43:14
  sized cities around the world and send the world into a
• 43:17
  nuclear Holocaust for a decade. That's 2%, right?
• 43:21
  So, and the world is building a lot right now.
• 43:23
  China's building a lot, but. Interestingly, the US, that's
• 43:26
  one of the proposals that is it looks like it's will get
• 43:32
  agreement amongst the superpowers is agreement to
• 43:35
  begin denuclearizing. Yeah, good.
• 43:38
  They won't go to 0, but they're basically all saying we all
• 43:41
  don't need this. Man, because those are real
• 43:43
  weapons. They're not fake weapons.
• 43:45
  Yeah, yeah. Those are real things, exactly.
• 43:49
  And also I think it's important to add one more thing into this
• 43:55
  conversation, which is you mentioned the moratorium on AI
• 43:59
  development. And I've, I've been in
• 44:03
  conversation in the room with a lot of the more pessimistic
• 44:06
  folks in the AI world. And one of them, Geoffrey
• 44:11
  Hinton, who's like the grandfather of this subject.
• 44:14
  Oh yeah, he's been on 60 minutes.
• 44:16
  Yeah, yeah, everything else. It's all that.
• 44:18
  It's all over. Right, Yeah, We're all gonna
• 44:20
  end. It's a, it's an extinction
• 44:22
  event, right? But he changed his mind
• 44:24
  recently. Oh, really?
• 44:26
  Yeah. And I was like, oh.
• 44:27
  Even after 60 minutes. After 60 minutes, he came out
• 44:30
  and he said, I've really been thinking about this and I think
• 44:33
  if we imbue AI with emotion, mm hmm, we can train it to be like
• 44:42
  a parent to a child or like a mother to an infant and teach it
• 44:47
  empathy and care and protection. And then it will protect
• 44:50
  humanity the way, you know, a parent or a mother protects a
• 44:54
  child. And when he said that, I was
• 44:56
  like, did he just say the love is the answer?
• 44:58
  Because I think that's what he said He's.
• 45:00
  Channelling The Beatles. Love Is All.
• 45:02
  You need so interesting that you know, these super geeky tech
• 45:05
  guys, when they really go in, they're like, oh, love is the
• 45:10
  answer. And when I think about it that
• 45:12
  way, it's like, it's so yin Yang.
• 45:14
  I mean, here we are with this wonderful ancient backdrop to
• 45:19
  remind us of our immense roots in history.
• 45:23
  And if you think about it, code, which is what AI is, you know,
• 45:27
  it's math, it's numbers, it's code.
• 45:30
  It is the ultimate kind of strict parameters.
• 45:37
  You know, you put one dot in the wrong place and the whole thing
• 45:40
  doesn't work. It's very rigid.
• 45:42
  It's very, it's a forcing mechanism.
• 45:46
  So if that is Yang, what's the yin?
• 45:50
  And I think the only yin to the power of the Yang we're
• 45:53
  developing is love. So if you take the incredible
• 45:57
  strength of what we're doing in technology, the only thing that
• 46:03
  can handle that is love. Yeah, yeah.
• 46:07
  So the more tech we get, the more love we have to bring.
• 46:11
  Yeah, I think that, yeah, is the way of thinking about.
• 46:15
  It I, I love that. And you know, I have long held
• 46:20
  ever since the invention of Chachi PT and really the
• 46:24
  popularization of AI that this chase for what I'll call
• 46:30
  sentience, you know, trying to create AGI and then artificial
• 46:34
  super intelligence afterwards. And that leading to, you know,
• 46:38
  God like intelligence, that that chase for sentience is going to
• 46:44
  lead us more into the discovery of the nature of our reality.
• 46:48
  And so if the actual reality that we're in is one that's
• 46:53
  deeply rooted in love and that we all come from that place and
• 46:58
  we just need to rediscover it over and over again in this
• 47:02
  Earth school where we are under assault.
• 47:05
  I mean, we have created the Matrix.
• 47:07
  It's of our own making. You know, we get pushed
• 47:10
  dystopian news. We get toxins in our food, as
• 47:13
  Jason Carp, you know, discussed. We have the pharmaceutical
• 47:16
  complex, which, you know, it's like, hey, we've got the
• 47:19
  solution. You know what GLPS, you know,
• 47:22
  once we're chemically addicted to the food and we have social
• 47:26
  media, you know, manipulation constantly going on, trying to
• 47:30
  leverage our basest fears. So it's I, I don't see any other
• 47:35
  path for humanity to be like Neo and the Matrix and stop the
• 47:40
  bullets. Then to have that inner journey
• 47:43
  and rediscover that that's actually the place that we come
• 47:46
  from so that we can continue to get go back and get more and
• 47:51
  more love centered. And that is the only path to
• 47:55
  happiness. I mean, that's in every
• 47:56
  spiritual text. It's not, you know, this is a
• 48:00
  nice room. You know, we're lucky to be
• 48:03
  successful entrepreneurs and live in this place, but I'm not
• 48:07
  owned by this place. My happiness comes deeply from
• 48:13
  living my meaning. And this, you know, doing this
• 48:16
  podcast is my love letter for humanity.
• 48:18
  I believe that I was born for this purpose, to help humanity
• 48:22
  get to this age. And that's where it that's where
• 48:26
  it actually comes from. It doesn't come from a material
• 48:29
  item. No.
• 48:31
  So this is actually really central to this question of how
• 48:35
  do we get, how do we get closer to abundance and handle it well.
• 48:41
  And by the way, just to be clear, the downside risks are
• 48:45
  really serious. There's this famous experiment,
• 48:49
  I think it was done at Stanford with the rats in a perfectly
• 48:53
  abundant environment. I think they did it like 80
• 48:56
  times and they created a living environment for rats that was
• 49:01
  just perfect abundance of everything.
• 49:03
  And initially it's all great, but eventually you have
• 49:08
  overpopulation and fights kick in and it always ends really
• 49:12
  badly. So it's not like getting
• 49:15
  abundance is enough. It's the ability to handle the
• 49:19
  abundance that we have to work on.
• 49:21
  So then I think about the difference, and I know this
• 49:24
  sounds strange, but the difference between boxes and
• 49:27
  gifts. So we live in a world now,
• 49:32
  particularly in the West, so the US and Europe, where we had the
• 49:37
  Cartesian revolution. This was the idea that we could
• 49:42
  split apart the rational and scientific and logical from
• 49:48
  mystery, love, liminal, the things that you can't prove.
• 49:56
  And in that split, we've put all of our time and attention on
• 50:01
  this factual reality where everything goes into a box.
• 50:07
  By which I mean like, literally, you have a spreadsheet and
• 50:12
  everything's got assigned a number, right?
• 50:14
  We measure things all the time. Measuring his number.
• 50:19
  Spreadsheets, right? You've got a box with a number.
• 50:22
  Or even people, ever since the Industrial Revolution were
• 50:26
  shaping people to fit into a box.
• 50:29
  Oh, lawyer, doctor, whatever the title is, we don't even think of
• 50:36
  if you're hiring a chief financial officer, what kind do
• 50:40
  you want? One who's extroverted and has a
• 50:43
  spiritual core? Or do you want one who's
• 50:46
  ruthless with the numbers? Like there's a whole range of
• 50:50
  possibility of CFO, but we don't really think that way.
• 50:53
  We just think that everybody's interchangeable, and you're
• 50:56
  building humans through the education process to have
• 51:00
  credentials so they'll fit into the box.
• 51:04
  And when we spend our whole lives working to make ends meet,
• 51:08
  and we live a kind of sequential life, we have one job with one
• 51:13
  job title, then another job with another job title, and then you
• 51:16
  save all the fun stuff for retirement.
• 51:19
  Well, that's one way, but you don't have to live life like
• 51:24
  this. And I think younger people are
• 51:25
  going, this is crazy. Why would we do this?
• 51:28
  Because they're not interested in the boxes, they're interested
• 51:31
  in the gifts. Now gifts.
• 51:34
  I mean, what are your particular unique gifts that are different
• 51:39
  from everybody else that give you the ability to navigate
• 51:45
  reality in a, in a unique way? So you mentioned Sir Demas
• 51:51
  Habasyss from Deep Minds. I was watching the documentary
• 51:54
  the other day on him where he talked about, you know, he was a
• 51:59
  chess player when he was super young.
• 52:02
  I think he started playing when he was like 4.
• 52:04
  And he's obviously a chess wizard.
• 52:08
  And that gift that he had, his parents allowed him to develop.
• 52:13
  They didn't say you're just playing games, go do something
• 52:16
  serious. They saw it as a serious
• 52:19
  undertaking. And when he solved the alpha
• 52:23
  fold protein problem, it was because he viewed it as a game.
• 52:28
  Right, that's. Right.
• 52:28
  It was like a three-dimensional chess game.
• 52:31
  So that unique gift that he had that you probably in a job
• 52:38
  interview or looking at a resume, you might not put I love
• 52:42
  chess on your resume because who cares?
• 52:45
  That's what you do for fun in your spare time.
• 52:48
  We want to know, can you do Microsoft Windows?
• 52:51
  But actually it's these gifts, these passions, these things
• 52:56
  that are about human creativity, the things we love.
• 53:00
  If we have more humans pursuing what they love, we will, I
• 53:06
  think, get a better outcome both at the individual level and the
• 53:09
  societal level. For sure.
• 53:11
  Yeah, yeah, I completely, I completely agree with that.
• 53:15
  And that's, that's the thing that makes me the most excited
• 53:18
  about what's happening now is that, yes, there humanity is
• 53:22
  prioritizing the creation of AGI out of fear.
• 53:26
  There's this fear of if the Chinese get AGI before us, it's
• 53:29
  all over for us and vice versa. But I think that the deeper, I
• 53:34
  think that's the, that's kind of the very surfacing narrative.
• 53:37
  I think the very, the deep narrative is there's always been
• 53:42
  this deep yearning for us as humanity on what is our reality,
• 53:47
  what makes U.S. special? And then how do we manifest more
• 53:52
  love and more love in terms of career, in terms of creation?
• 53:57
  You know, I, I really believe we're going to enter into this
• 54:00
  renaissance 2 dot O period. And I, I think the way it's
• 54:04
  going to happen is we're going to hit a crescendo with
• 54:08
  abundance where you and I are almost like glimpsing, you know,
• 54:13
  past Earth and seeing, you know, the stars and seeing the end of
• 54:18
  disease and unlimited energy and all of these.
• 54:21
  And wow, we can choose that. And I think that that it could
• 54:26
  get very dark before then. You know, The Alchemist is, is a
• 54:31
  great book and has this great line in it that it's always
• 54:34
  darkest before the dawn. And I think there's part of our
• 54:37
  reality right now, the human reality that we've created that.
• 54:42
  But we're going to see that over the horizon.
• 54:45
  And I think when push comes to shove, we'll make the choice.
• 54:48
  I think we'll make the right choice.
• 54:49
  So I think there's, there's, I see some sort of glitches I can
• 54:54
  see or have to work on. So one of them is we've, we've,
• 54:59
  we've reached a point where all of all, but most of our meaning
• 55:03
  and purpose is coming from our work.
• 55:07
  So if you don't have to work or if you can work instead of a
• 55:11
  sequential life, a kind of LinkedIn sequential life, but
• 55:16
  instead a portfolio life, which I see happening all the time.
• 55:20
  That's what I'm doing. And I, everybody's going, well,
• 55:23
  I work part of the time on a startup and a friend has a
• 55:26
  startup and I consult to my old company and I figured out how to
• 55:30
  get my phone to generate passive income.
• 55:32
  And so multiple income streams. And you can't answer the
• 55:36
  question, what do you do with one simple statement?
• 55:40
  Because it doesn't work anymore to say, oh, I'm a lawyer.
• 55:44
  He's like, oh, well, I'm a lawyer and I'm an entrepreneur
• 55:47
  and I figured out how to paint. And I'm selling my paintings for
• 55:52
  a reasonable, like we were doing all of these things.
• 55:55
  So how do you define who you are?
• 55:59
  And that's connected to material things.
• 56:01
  A friend of mine said to me once, why do you think that
• 56:05
  wealthy? Usually it's wealthy guys, not
• 56:08
  always, but usually wealthy guys.
• 56:10
  Why do wealthy guys like collecting rare things, rare
• 56:15
  vintage automobiles, rare watches?
• 56:19
  And I was like, I don't know what is that about?
• 56:21
  And he said it because it's not enough to show that you can
• 56:24
  afford it. It's the desire to have
• 56:27
  something that no one else can have because there's only one or
• 56:31
  they're very few. And so the whole thing is caught
• 56:34
  up in status. It's demonstrating, yeah, it's
• 56:39
  scarcity. It's I've got more.
• 56:42
  It's a proof point. But so how do you take a person
• 56:45
  like that who's super smart and say who you are is not what you
• 56:51
  own? I'm and I'm all for private
• 56:54
  property, right? Like I'm a red blooded
• 56:55
  capitalist. But, but you know, so I'm not
• 56:59
  calling for communism or any other socialism.
• 57:02
  But on the other hand, I, I can see, you know, I'm single and in
• 57:06
  my age bracket, I can see a lot of guys who are like, look at my
• 57:09
  car and look at this and look at that.
• 57:11
  I'm like, I don't care what's in your heart, where, what's,
• 57:14
  where's your soul? And they're like, what, what are
• 57:18
  you talking about? They don't even have the
• 57:20
  vocabulary. And I think that's not exclusive
• 57:24
  to this, you know, group of humans.
• 57:27
  I think generally speaking, you know, you talk about your sort
• 57:31
  of soul quest. And I think that is our purpose.
• 57:36
  That is why we're here. And everybody's soul quest is
• 57:39
  unique and individual and needs to be cultivated and respected.
• 57:46
  And so there's some things that I think we could do.
• 57:50
  So for example, art. So I'm convinced a whole bunch
• 57:54
  of people who are currently, let's say lawyers who AI are
• 57:58
  going to completely displace. So they are going to lose those
• 58:01
  jobs, but they're smart. And how many of them are
• 58:05
  actually at their core and their deep heart artists?
• 58:09
  They are writers or they're painters or they love ceramics
• 58:13
  or they've never even tried. So we don't even know that
• 58:16
  actually. They could have been one of the
• 58:19
  great artists, but we didn't even test to find out.
• 58:22
  And you say this to them and they're like, this is
• 58:24
  ridiculous. You can't make a living as an
• 58:26
  artist, I say. Well, actually, not only can
• 58:30
  you, but if we collectively as a society made a decision to stop
• 58:35
  buying art because it's valuable and instead buy art because it
• 58:39
  makes your heart sing, then there would be a way for artists
• 58:43
  to make a living. There'd be a whole conversation
• 58:46
  about our artistic elements, of our personalities, and then you
• 58:53
  will find lawyers turned into artists.
• 58:57
  And this is what really needs to happen is the leaning
• 59:01
  out-of-the-box and into the gifts.
• 59:06
  And no, some people are incredibly gifted.
• 59:08
  Like you are obviously at running companies and making
• 59:11
  profits. Brilliant.
• 59:12
  That's a gift. It's not to denigrate that at
• 59:15
  all. But there are also many other
• 59:17
  gifts. And we have denigrated the
• 59:21
  people who like my daughter came to me one day and she said she
• 59:25
  was, she's an artist. She said, you know, you can't
• 59:27
  make a living as an artist. She was like 12 or 13 at the
• 59:31
  time. And I said, that's it.
• 59:33
  Stop everything. We're not doing anything else
• 59:36
  today. We are going to sit down and
• 59:37
  we're going to look at all the artists who have been
• 59:40
  successful. And you can be successful too,
• 59:44
  because this belief is just a a line that we've been fed.
• 59:48
  There's no reason that you can't make a living as an artist.
• 59:51
  That's right. So This is why I say boxes
• 59:53
  versus gifts, the old world required we fit into the box.
• 59:58
  This new world is saying go find your gifts because that is where
• 1:00:03
  you will, that's where you will be able to find your purpose,
• 1:00:07
  your meaning. And I think that's that's what's
• 1:00:10
  underway. So talking about, you know,
• 1:00:13
  humanity's gifts and people discovering their gifts, let's
• 1:00:20
  assume that, you know, we made it to abundance and we did.
• 1:00:24
  And we made that fateful choice and we didn't destroy ourselves,
• 1:00:27
  right? We, we, we got to the equivalent
• 1:00:30
  of whatever the Cuban missile crisis point was with AI,
• 1:00:34
  quantum computing, robotics. And we, we said, let's choose
• 1:00:38
  abundance and let's globally collaborate towards that.
• 1:00:42
  What do you see as the future of humanity, you know, in terms of
• 1:00:46
  us being able to really leverage our gifts and being in a place
• 1:00:51
  where love did conquer fear. And we realized the fact that
• 1:00:54
  we're 99.9% the same. And where do you, where do you
• 1:00:59
  kind of, you know, I'm asking you, I guess, to put on both
• 1:01:03
  your love centered hat as well as your geopolitical hat.
• 1:01:05
  Like, what do you think? What do you think we'd look
• 1:01:08
  like? Gosh, you've been 20-30 years
• 1:01:10
  from now. Yeah.
• 1:01:12
  Well, you know, I think of my grandmother, who was, she
• 1:01:16
  remembered when there was the first airplane and then at the
• 1:01:20
  end of her life she had travelled around the world in an
• 1:01:23
  airplane, visiting parts of the world that were impossible to
• 1:01:27
  imagine as a young girl for her. So I think actually we, we are
• 1:01:33
  very adaptable. We're a remarkably adaptable
• 1:01:36
  species, but we still have real trouble with change.
• 1:01:41
  And I think I'm, as I'm working on the book that I'm writing
• 1:01:45
  right now, one piece of it is how to get everybody more
• 1:01:49
  comfortable with change. And it may be little things, it
• 1:01:53
  may be try to take a different way to work every day instead of
• 1:02:00
  always going the same way. I noticed when lockdown happened
• 1:02:04
  and I started walking around my neighborhood, I realized there
• 1:02:07
  was all this stuff that I didn't even know was in my neighborhood
• 1:02:11
  because I was always going the same path.
• 1:02:13
  And so try a new kind of food, move something around.
• 1:02:19
  And then you got to get used to that.
• 1:02:21
  Change is kind of cool. Interesting things happen and it
• 1:02:26
  reduces the fear. But I think even bigger than
• 1:02:30
  that. I came across this beautiful
• 1:02:32
  word. I found it in a dictionary
• 1:02:34
  because I'm such a nerd girl. I, you know, I like rifling
• 1:02:37
  through dictionaries. I love words, you know, And I
• 1:02:41
  found this wonderful world word cosmopoasis, and it means the
• 1:02:46
  active world building. And so my mom was at Oxford
• 1:02:51
  studying very closely with JRR Tolkien.
• 1:02:54
  So I learned a lot about world building from her experience
• 1:02:58
  with Tolkien. You just invoked my favorite
• 1:03:02
  book. Series of all time.
• 1:03:03
  Yeah, and my favorite movies. Amazing, amazing rings and all
• 1:03:07
  that. Well, it was so weird.
• 1:03:08
  She somehow learned to speak Middle English in the early
• 1:03:13
  1950s in LA And he and all of his close friends, CS Lewis and
• 1:03:20
  WH Auden, they used to talk to each other in Middle English
• 1:03:23
  because they just thought that was cool.
• 1:03:25
  And so there's my mom. She's like, oh, I speak this
• 1:03:26
  fluently. And so she was in that inner
• 1:03:29
  circle with. They called them the Inklings at
• 1:03:31
  the time. Yeah, the Inklings.
• 1:03:33
  And so I think as an economist, that influenced my work hugely
• 1:03:38
  because I'm always leaning in the direction of telling the
• 1:03:41
  story rather than showing the numbers, which is what all the
• 1:03:45
  other economists are doing. But cosmopoasis is really
• 1:03:48
  important now. It's what Tolkien did.
• 1:03:51
  He created a world which you love and you you exist within.
• 1:03:56
  You understand that world. So lots of people are trying to
• 1:03:59
  build companies or countries or communities, but to build a
• 1:04:05
  world is to create a space where others can become something
• 1:04:09
  greater than they thought they could or that they knew they
• 1:04:12
  were capable of. So it's not about like, OK, how
• 1:04:18
  much money are we going to make? Or it's, it's literally an act
• 1:04:22
  of imagination where others become the creative force.
• 1:04:27
  And I think Steve Jobs also was in, in his mind, engaged in a,
• 1:04:32
  in a cosmopoasis with Apple. Because remember, he's, he said,
• 1:04:36
  we're not making computers, we are creating.
• 1:04:40
  We're about giving brilliant people the ability to create
• 1:04:45
  without having to think about their computers.
• 1:04:48
  That's cosmopoasis. Or I love the guy behind
• 1:04:54
  Patagonia, right, who who started that company because he
• 1:05:00
  loved mountain climbing and he hated the fact that the nails
• 1:05:04
  that you had to hammer into the rock were damaging the rock.
• 1:05:09
  So he created some new kind of of what's the word for those,
• 1:05:15
  the little, little iron things that should hammer into the side
• 1:05:19
  of the rock. I know exactly.
• 1:05:20
  You know what you're talking about.
• 1:05:21
  Yeah. And but he created some new
• 1:05:24
  version that didn't damage the rock so much.
• 1:05:27
  And then that wasn't like an ethos that you could be in
• 1:05:30
  nature without damaging it. And that created a draw for a
• 1:05:36
  lot of people to be like, I want to be in nature in that way.
• 1:05:40
  That's a kind of cause of hoists.
• 1:05:42
  And, you know, now if you hang out with venture capital guys,
• 1:05:45
  they're all wearing Patagonia vests, even though they haven't
• 1:05:48
  been in nature for as long as they can remember.
• 1:05:50
  Why? Because they're advertising.
• 1:05:52
  I'm part of that world. I share that ethos.
• 1:05:57
  And so I think if we want to get into that abundant future, all
• 1:06:03
  of us have to think in a more cosmopoetic way.
• 1:06:07
  What am I doing to facilitate the move?
• 1:06:11
  So if you think about it, how often is it that somebody says I
• 1:06:15
  have an idea or and they'll put it forward every go, That's
• 1:06:19
  ridiculous. That'll never work.
• 1:06:21
  Or it's so easy to say no. It's.
• 1:06:25
  That's fear, too. That's fear.
• 1:06:27
  Exactly. And now we have so much
• 1:06:31
  possibility of turning the most strange, unusual things into
• 1:06:36
  something valuable. It's almost like we have to flip
• 1:06:40
  it around and and every time you find yourself saying no, you've
• 1:06:45
  got a problem. We have to get better at saying
• 1:06:48
  yes. We should try that.
• 1:06:51
  We're novelty seeking beings. Let's do it and see what
• 1:06:55
  happens. And and that's that's I mean,
• 1:06:58
  coming back to AII mean first of all, you just invoked why I'm an
• 1:07:02
  entrepreneur. I mean, I I've been starting
• 1:07:05
  companies since I was 24 and it's always been with great
• 1:07:08
  teams, great Co founders to create the world that we wanted.
• 1:07:12
  You know, I was one of those kids crazy enough to grow up
• 1:07:15
  reading sci-fi and then being like, let's create the positive
• 1:07:19
  version of that and be agents to actually create that.
• 1:07:23
  And that's been my whole career. And I'm an investor alongside my
• 1:07:28
  wife and 149 startups as well. Twelve of them now are unicorns,
• 1:07:32
  which is amazing, which is incredible.
• 1:07:36
  And that's coming back to AI like I, I do think that the
• 1:07:43
  barrier creativity is being shattered to the point where,
• 1:07:47
  you know, when, when I would go out and speak at events, people
• 1:07:51
  would be like, well, he's been programming since E7, etcetera.
• 1:07:53
  I've got to have that type of background.
• 1:07:55
  And I would always make the point, you don't need my type of
• 1:07:58
  background. You could always team up with a
• 1:08:00
  CTO type person. That's, that's been programming
• 1:08:03
  for a long time. But now you really can exert
• 1:08:09
  much more creativity and that acceleration of our productive
• 1:08:14
  capacity is going so exponential that really at the end of the
• 1:08:20
  day, you know, we're talking about future society.
• 1:08:23
  It's going to be to what you said earlier in the podcast,
• 1:08:27
  your level of imagination, you know, like imagine us being like
• 1:08:31
  Mickey Mouse and Fantasia, you know, creating, creating the
• 1:08:34
  world that we want and then doing that at scale, not just on
• 1:08:41
  Earth, but around the rest of the Galaxy and eventually the
• 1:08:45
  rest of the universe. You know, one of the things I
• 1:08:46
  explore in the Lattice is that once humanity allows love to
• 1:08:51
  conquer fear because Doctor Alexander Bliss finds a
• 1:08:55
  technique to prove what our actual reality is, and that
• 1:08:59
  unites science and spirituality into one.
• 1:09:03
  And, you know, heaven and earth, metaphorically or mystically,
• 1:09:06
  however you want to look at it, merge at that point, we have an
• 1:09:11
  unprecedented global collaboration take off and we
• 1:09:15
  propagate the stars. You know, we, we, we're only
• 1:09:19
  bound by the laws of physics and the reality is we don't
• 1:09:23
  understand the laws of. Physics said we only understand
• 1:09:26
  a little bit of. Our right, so, you know, quantum
• 1:09:29
  physics, it gets very weird very fast.
• 1:09:32
  And a lot of people that are patriarchs of the field, like
• 1:09:36
  Max Planck, they became very spiritual as a result, because
• 1:09:39
  they found that the ancient Mystics, you know, the ancient
• 1:09:42
  spiritual masters, the teachers, the the authors of some of the
• 1:09:46
  spiritual texts, they somehow already knew that we are all
• 1:09:51
  connected, that we're all one. You know, once we once we hit
• 1:09:55
  that point, we can just exert so much creativity.
• 1:10:00
  And that's the thing that's most exciting to me.
• 1:10:03
  I think that I think that so much human potential has been
• 1:10:07
  wasted for so long because of all the rote stuff that we've
• 1:10:11
  had to kind of slug through to get to the good stuff.
• 1:10:15
  You know, there, there's, there's very few people that
• 1:10:18
  I've met that enjoy the rote work.
• 1:10:21
  They all enjoy the creativity aspect and it's, and it's just
• 1:10:25
  this constant slog to get to that.
• 1:10:28
  You know, I mean, even as an entrepreneur, I've been able to
• 1:10:32
  envision what I want the company to create and become much, much,
• 1:10:37
  much, much, much faster than it's possible.
• 1:10:40
  You know, there's a massive amount of inertia to get there.
• 1:10:44
  And and so that accelerative potential I think is is really,
• 1:10:50
  really exciting. You know, I wonder if it's
• 1:10:53
  something, rather than this transformative moment being
• 1:10:59
  about a new technology or even our capacity to embrace it,
• 1:11:05
  whether actually it's about the story that we tell ourselves.
• 1:11:10
  It's the, it's the framing of reality.
• 1:11:13
  So one of my favorite stories in the quantum world is the oldest
• 1:11:22
  stories humanity has are, you know, in the Vedas.
• 1:11:26
  And there's a story of the creation of the universe where
• 1:11:29
  the God Indra basically throws a fishing net out over everything
• 1:11:35
  and unites Indra's net and unites the light and the dark.
• 1:11:39
  And at the point of connection between everything, every
• 1:11:43
  person, every place is a unique jewel or a unique Pearl.
• 1:11:49
  And the universe literally shines in the brilliant
• 1:11:53
  reflection. And each one reflects the
• 1:11:55
  entire. Universe and each one reflects
• 1:11:57
  the entire universe. So you have this dazzling image
• 1:12:01
  of Indra's net and then Fast forward modern quantum physics,
• 1:12:06
  they have just discovered that when we have two entangled
• 1:12:11
  photons to quantum entangled photons, there's this thing in
• 1:12:15
  between called an amplitude ahedron, and it is a unique
• 1:12:20
  crystal. And you're like, wait, how has
• 1:12:23
  the oldest story in humanity just been confirmed by our most
• 1:12:28
  modern technology? And so there's something in
• 1:12:32
  understanding our roots better than we do.
• 1:12:36
  There's something in understanding the power of the
• 1:12:39
  story because a story is technology as well.
• 1:12:43
  It's one of our best technologies for transmitting
• 1:12:45
  information through generations. Stories stay with us.
• 1:12:49
  And this is Indra's net has been around since that's the earliest
• 1:12:53
  story we have. So if that is the case, that's
• 1:12:57
  such an invitation to open your mind to the possibility that
• 1:13:04
  truths about who we are is are already there, we just haven't
• 1:13:08
  recognized them. It's a bit like that wonderful
• 1:13:10
  line from WB Eights in one of his poems where he says the
• 1:13:15
  world is full of magical things waiting to be perceived.
• 1:13:19
  Because we miss so much, because we're too busy, we're didn't
• 1:13:22
  notice some interesting magical thing, and because we're
• 1:13:27
  thinking that's not important. It's back to this Cartesian
• 1:13:30
  split between the rational, logical, scientific versus, you
• 1:13:34
  know, mystical storytelling. And I think you're right.
• 1:13:38
  What's happening is these two are being reunited and they were
• 1:13:42
  never separated outside of the West.
• 1:13:46
  So in Russia, in Africa, in the Middle East, in China, they
• 1:13:52
  never separated these two things.
• 1:13:53
  They always said we can do science and accept that there
• 1:13:57
  are mystical things that that occur that can't be measured,
• 1:14:03
  that are never going to be repeated in a scientific
• 1:14:06
  experiment. But that doesn't make them any
• 1:14:07
  less real. And that gets back to your
• 1:14:11
  earlier point about understanding our universe, the
• 1:14:15
  nature of intelligence sentience.
• 1:14:17
  And I think it's no coincidence that we seem to be having an
• 1:14:21
  interesting conversation about non human intelligence anomalous
• 1:14:27
  phenomena. That makes sense to me, that as
• 1:14:29
  we punch into these four new cardinal directions of the world
• 1:14:33
  economy, that we're going to bump into things that don't make
• 1:14:38
  sense based on our old rules, 'cause now we realize, yeah, we
• 1:14:43
  only understood 4% of physics, right, Right.
• 1:14:45
  And the rest. So.
• 1:14:47
  So being open minded, instead of saying, well, that can't be
• 1:14:51
  true, Why can't it be true? Yeah, maybe it is true.
• 1:14:54
  Yeah, yeah. It becomes really critical to
• 1:14:58
  our future. Yeah.
• 1:14:59
  I mean, Indra's net in the lattice is, is the lattice.
• 1:15:03
  Yeah, yeah, it's at the, at the end of the lattice that I in the
• 1:15:08
  book with quoting from the Quran, the Bible from, you know,
• 1:15:14
  from Hinduism, from Indrasnet, you know, from the Zohar, which
• 1:15:20
  is Jewish mysticism, Kabbalah and basically all the, all the
• 1:15:24
  spiritual text. And I show that we've already
• 1:15:29
  discovered this. It's it's, it's embedded in all
• 1:15:32
  the spiritual texts already. And you know, Doctor Alexander
• 1:15:35
  Bliss towards the end of his life, he's like the ancient
• 1:15:38
  Mystics already knew what it took us all the scientific
• 1:15:42
  endeavor to discover. I mean, I think that this, this
• 1:15:45
  idea of what is consciousness is one of the most exciting of
• 1:15:51
  things, maybe the most exciting frontier for us to really decode
• 1:15:56
  and discover. What is your thesis on that?
• 1:15:58
  Because I mean, really, for all of 2025, my deep dive was trying
• 1:16:03
  to understand what is the nature of our reality and, and, and
• 1:16:09
  reading lots of books on consciousness and quantum
• 1:16:11
  physics and AI and spirituality and weaving all those together,
• 1:16:15
  I found a lot of common patterns.
• 1:16:19
  I'm just curious where you, where you sit with that now?
• 1:16:21
  Because you put 200 consciousness researchers in a
• 1:16:24
  room and they'll disagree on a lot.
• 1:16:27
  Oh, yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 1:16:29
  And most of them are very, very afraid because they are
• 1:16:32
  scientists, so they don't want to be excluded from the
• 1:16:37
  scientific community. So they can't talk about the
• 1:16:40
  things you can't measure right. So they're all stuck in a little
• 1:16:45
  circle going around and around. They're stuck in the hard
• 1:16:47
  problem of conscious. They are.
• 1:16:48
  That's where they are exactly. I I love this subject again.
• 1:16:55
  I think it's so fascinating that Sir Roger Penrose, when he had
• 1:17:02
  his idea after he'd won his Nobel Prize in physics in the
• 1:17:05
  50s and then he had this idea, I think around 57 or 58, where he
• 1:17:11
  said he basically talked about panpsychism and that we must
• 1:17:16
  have some physical apparatus that allows us to connect with
• 1:17:21
  what many people would now call a quantum field.
• 1:17:23
  Or you could call it some kind of electromagnetic phenomena.
• 1:17:28
  But it's the same thing that allows a dog to find its way
• 1:17:30
  home when it's 500 miles away and you're like, how does it do
• 1:17:33
  that? And or how we.
• 1:17:35
  Know through the Higgs boson that there is a field.
• 1:17:37
  There is a field exactly. So Fast forward only, I think
• 1:17:43
  now 7 or 8 years ago when we started doing MRI scans of the
• 1:17:49
  human head with enough frequency to be able to really see what
• 1:17:56
  was going on. And it was discovered that.
• 1:17:58
  So he had suggested that there must be hollow tubes somewhere
• 1:18:03
  in the human body that have this ability to interact with
• 1:18:07
  whatever this field is. Well, we discovered that
• 1:18:12
  underneath the skin and around every organ, like like fascia,
• 1:18:17
  there's this microscopic mesh of microtubes.
• 1:18:22
  Microtubules, I think they're. Microtubules.
• 1:18:24
  Yeah. And so everyone's like, Oh my
• 1:18:26
  gosh. So Roger Penrose is completely
• 1:18:28
  vindicated right now. How the heck does the thing
• 1:18:30
  work? We don't know, but we know
• 1:18:33
  there's an organ that we didn't know about before.
• 1:18:36
  So again, as you say, we think we know it all.
• 1:18:38
  And you're like, well, there's new stuff, you know, because
• 1:18:41
  we're, we're getting better prosthetics all the time.
• 1:18:44
  A microscope or an MRI scanner is effectively A prosthetic for
• 1:18:48
  your eyes. The James Webb telescope is a
• 1:18:51
  prosthetic allows us to see a million and a half miles away.
• 1:18:54
  So we're going to see much more stuff.
• 1:18:57
  So I think if we couch it in those terms, I yeah, I'm more
• 1:19:03
  and more leaning in the direction of Carl Jung's idea of
• 1:19:10
  collective consciousness, a quantum field consciousness that
• 1:19:14
  likes to speak to us in very particular ways, mainly in art
• 1:19:19
  and symbol and color, not in words, mainly through the
• 1:19:26
  subconscious, not through the conscious.
• 1:19:30
  For myself, for example, my favorite time of day is when I
• 1:19:35
  wake up in the morning and I'm in what they call hypnagogia,
• 1:19:39
  which is this state where you're not awake, you're not asleep,
• 1:19:43
  you're sort of halfway and your subconscious is able to speak to
• 1:19:48
  you and things just start to pop up and oh, that's so
• 1:19:52
  interesting. And oh, I never connected the
• 1:19:55
  dots before. It's you're like problem
• 1:19:58
  solving, but not because it's like a work deadline.
• 1:20:02
  It's a it's a more organic process.
• 1:20:05
  And I've, I've written a couple books on leadership, and it's
• 1:20:09
  very clear that human beings do not solve problems most
• 1:20:13
  effectively when they are in meetings.
• 1:20:15
  So calling more meetings isn't going to get you the problem
• 1:20:18
  solved. What happens is people go off,
• 1:20:21
  they walk their dog, they're doing the dishes, they're in the
• 1:20:24
  shower. And it's when they reach this
• 1:20:26
  relaxed state where they're not trying that the hypnagogia kicks
• 1:20:32
  in and the subconscious can just give you an answer.
• 1:20:37
  And this we don't really protect that space.
• 1:20:43
  Well, you know, we don't say why don't you take two days and
• 1:20:46
  don't come into work and don't even try to solve the problem.
• 1:20:51
  But you know, the person is thinking about the problem and
• 1:20:55
  let their own subconscious sing to them in a particular way.
• 1:20:59
  So I think when we talk about consciousness, I suspect our
• 1:21:03
  modern busy lives are so chop chop, chop, chop, chop.
• 1:21:07
  We just don't have the time space to even allow whatever
• 1:21:12
  that is collective on collective consciousness, our subconscious
• 1:21:17
  quantum fields, electromagnetic sensory perception, none of it
• 1:21:22
  is is given any breathing room. But when I talk to the leading
• 1:21:28
  scientists, even guys at NASA, they will say, we know that this
• 1:21:34
  is how consciousness works. And quite often the top guys
• 1:21:39
  there will say we regularly come into major discoveries because
• 1:21:45
  the scientists will go to bed at night and in their dreams will
• 1:21:48
  suddenly have a blueprint. And they'll be like, I don't
• 1:21:51
  know where the heck this thing came from.
• 1:21:54
  I don't even know what it is. I don't know how to they start
• 1:21:57
  to build it. And that's solves a problem.
• 1:22:00
  Now, is that coming from inside that person or are we like
• 1:22:04
  antenna and some people are better antenna than others.
• 1:22:09
  And we're we're gathering something and connecting dots
• 1:22:14
  and solving a problem that way. Are thoughts things that exist
• 1:22:19
  inside or are they things that appear from the outside?
• 1:22:23
  Either again, is it electromagnetism?
• 1:22:26
  Is it like there's so many possible answers, but I think
• 1:22:30
  the the ancient Huna tradition of the Pacific, the Hawaiian
• 1:22:34
  Islanders and the aboriginals, they say you must be very
• 1:22:37
  careful what you think because your thoughts will come to life,
• 1:22:41
  right? So that's a very interesting
• 1:22:44
  ancient wisdom. It is.
• 1:22:46
  That's a very. Bring to our modern situation,
• 1:22:48
  yeah, be careful what you are dreaming of, right?
• 1:22:51
  Because you will dream it into being.
• 1:22:53
  Yeah, it's very, very Doctor Joe Dispenza.
• 1:22:57
  It is. Yeah.
• 1:22:58
  And it's very Dao De Ching, you know.
• 1:22:59
  Well, there's a, there's a, there's a Parable of the Dao,
• 1:23:02
  which is literally Joe Dispenza. Correct, Correct.
• 1:23:06
  Yeah. And we don't really again, the
• 1:23:10
  Indigenous people, they take the view that you westerners are not
• 1:23:14
  dreaming very well. You, you don't dream at all or
• 1:23:18
  you're dreaming a an extractive, destructive, money driven like
• 1:23:25
  those. That's, those are not the things
• 1:23:27
  you should dream about. It's what you're describing.
• 1:23:30
  It's a world of abundance. It's a world where problems are
• 1:23:33
  solved. It's a world where you have time
• 1:23:37
  again, where where you can turn inward and and go for the things
• 1:23:43
  you love. Like whatever that is, what
• 1:23:47
  whatever turns you on, that's where you're dreaming needs to
• 1:23:52
  be paying attention. I mean my my personal opinion is
• 1:23:57
  that consciousness resides in somewhere in the quantum space,
• 1:24:03
  but that that is synonymous with heaven source, the astral plane.
• 1:24:09
  It is spiritual. It is it is a spiritual medium.
• 1:24:14
  And that we're derivative from that and that we're here in this
• 1:24:19
  world of form in this Earth school, constantly having to
• 1:24:24
  rediscover how to manifest love and how to become better humans.
• 1:24:28
  And, you know, going from lifetime to lifetime.
• 1:24:32
  And I very much believe in reincarnation that that we're
• 1:24:36
  just, we're constantly building on and hopefully progressing,
• 1:24:41
  you know, in a, in a positive manner.
• 1:24:44
  In fact, in the work that's being done now in at the at the
• 1:24:49
  conjunction between AI and neurology and physics, things
• 1:24:56
  like Neuralink, but many other examples.
• 1:25:03
  I also have paradromics here in Austin.
• 1:25:05
  Yeah, yeah. 22 Brain computer interface.
• 1:25:07
  Companies are really leading, there's beginning to be a kind
• 1:25:11
  of like, wait, if there's a physiological process, if you
• 1:25:15
  could identify a memory as a as literally a code, then can you
• 1:25:22
  download the code of a human? And if we can 3D print you from
• 1:25:29
  yourself, can you move the consciousness?
• 1:25:34
  And I don't that sounds so science fiction, but there's a
• 1:25:38
  lot of work being done on this notionally right now.
• 1:25:42
  And this gets to then the deeper question of what does it mean to
• 1:25:46
  be human and what does it mean to be you or to be me?
• 1:25:50
  And that's where I come back to, you know, what is our core
• 1:25:53
  operating system? And it's, it's our core
• 1:25:59
  operating system. We are not here designed to be
• 1:26:04
  just relentlessly trying to earn a paycheck.
• 1:26:07
  We're here to individuate, as Carl Jung would say, to reach
• 1:26:14
  the highest version of ourselves that we're capable of.
• 1:26:17
  To figure out. You know, how many people have
• 1:26:19
  we known who didn't know they were a singer, but they turned
• 1:26:22
  out to be a singer or they didn't know they were a wizard
• 1:26:26
  at something. And they turned out to be this
• 1:26:28
  process of discovering who you are.
• 1:26:31
  And that's connected to love for others as well and cultivating
• 1:26:37
  their gifts, creating a space where others can truly come into
• 1:26:41
  themselves and try goofy things and make mistakes.
• 1:26:46
  And I don't know, I think that this we don't, we don't spend
• 1:26:50
  enough time thinking, what is it that a human need?
• 1:26:53
  Because we're not machines, right?
• 1:26:55
  We're not just calculating analytical phenomena, right?
• 1:27:02
  We have feelings and emotion, and we live and breathe
• 1:27:07
  something that is just profoundly what it is to be
• 1:27:12
  sentient and alive. Yeah, but.
• 1:27:15
  I mean, consciousness is where it's at.
• 1:27:16
  Like what are we without consciousness?
• 1:27:18
  Yeah. What is anything and how is it
• 1:27:20
  that we've studied consciousness so little?
• 1:27:23
  Yeah, it's it's. Crazy substrate of everything
• 1:27:26
  and we're like, no, no, no, that's not serious.
• 1:27:28
  Well, one of the things that really bothers me overall is
• 1:27:34
  dogma and and, and, and by the way, that includes in, in
• 1:27:37
  religion. I mean, I love spirituality,
• 1:27:40
  spirituality that core. I've I've read a lot of the
• 1:27:44
  ancient spiritual text and I've looked for the unity between
• 1:27:47
  them. And that's a beautiful root and
• 1:27:50
  it's very simple to describe. It's that we need to embrace
• 1:27:55
  that we can allow love to conquer our fear, have that
• 1:27:58
  beautiful inner journey, rediscover our soul.
• 1:28:01
  Then we can help other people do that.
• 1:28:03
  And then collectively humanity, a sense that's essentially like
• 1:28:06
  the common root. And then there's the dogma, but
• 1:28:08
  the same thing in science of the dogma of like, oh, Nope, it's
• 1:28:14
  taboo to study that. Or, you know, I mean, I know
• 1:28:17
  you've, you've, you've spoken on UA PS And it's the same thing.
• 1:28:20
  It's like, oh, it's taboo, you know, like, like people just,
• 1:28:25
  you know, write someone off as crazy if they're talking about
• 1:28:28
  aliens or whatever. And it's like that's, that's
• 1:28:31
  also, you know, a part of probably our multidimensional
• 1:28:35
  reality and, and the reality that we're in.
• 1:28:38
  I mean, are we the only sentient beings in the entire universe of
• 1:28:43
  completely vast scope and, you know, supposedly 13.8 billion
• 1:28:48
  years old, although we're finding out through the James
• 1:28:51
  Webb telescope that it's actually older.
• 1:28:53
  Than that and we. Don't even know if this is the
• 1:28:55
  first version of the universe and every materialist has to
• 1:29:00
  grapple with the miracle of The Big Bang.
• 1:29:03
  And you know, as Mark Gover said on episode 2 of the podcast, I
• 1:29:06
  love this, He's like, grant me the miracle, The Big Bang, and
• 1:29:09
  I'll explain everything else to you.
• 1:29:11
  Yes, you know, but no materialist can explain like why
• 1:29:15
  was the universe in a state of no entropy at all?
• 1:29:18
  And then boom, there's a catalyst that led to all these
• 1:29:22
  random collisions that eventually led to us, and then
• 1:29:24
  boom, consciousness popped out as some derivative product as
• 1:29:30
  opposed to being fundamental. I, I was very lucky.
• 1:29:34
  I went to meet a super interesting man at Cambridge
• 1:29:38
  called Didier Quellos, and he won the Nobel Prize in Physics
• 1:29:43
  and I think it was 2019. But he had this absolutely
• 1:29:48
  crazy, insane idea that there might be other planets that were
• 1:29:52
  like Earth. They might not be identical, but
• 1:29:55
  within a certain set of parameters that they'd be
• 1:29:58
  capable of sustaining life because there was enough carbon
• 1:30:02
  or enough oxygen or so he set the parameters and I was like,
• 1:30:06
  this is just crazy. Well, guess how many exoplanets
• 1:30:10
  he called them? We've now discovered how many
• 1:30:13
  more than 6000? And those are just the ones.
• 1:30:16
  And we just started looking like we only started looking a few
• 1:30:19
  years ago. And now we're like, Oh, my gosh,
• 1:30:21
  they're actually quite a few places that can sustain life as
• 1:30:26
  we know it. And now we see as we know it as
• 1:30:30
  we know it. Yeah.
• 1:30:31
  Yeah. Like what's our definition of
• 1:30:33
  what's life? Because the universe may be full
• 1:30:36
  of life all over and we just don't understand it because it's
• 1:30:41
  so different from us. Totally.
• 1:30:44
  There was a fantastically interesting experiment here at
• 1:30:47
  the University of Texas where they were using a big robotic
• 1:30:51
  machine to pull platinum apart as if it was taffy, like just
• 1:30:56
  they were testing the tensile strength of the metal.
• 1:30:59
  Platinum is very hard. Right.
• 1:31:01
  And then apparently they all went off to lunch and somebody
• 1:31:05
  forgot to turn the camera off and they were using this super
• 1:31:09
  high-powered, you know, very precise camera.
• 1:31:12
  And what they saw on the video was that the metal started
• 1:31:18
  trying to reattach itself. They were like, wait, that
• 1:31:23
  implies memory, that implies movement, that implies self
• 1:31:30
  preservation. Like wait, it's a metal.
• 1:31:33
  And it's not like a an amalgam of metals.
• 1:31:36
  It's a pure metal. What the heck?
• 1:31:38
  Right. Wow, these kinds of discoveries
• 1:31:40
  are making us go, wait, what do we really know about how the
• 1:31:47
  physical, material world of life itself works?
• 1:31:51
  Recently, NASA brought back samples from another asteroid
• 1:31:55
  called Bennu, and they have been very clear.
• 1:32:00
  It contains all the component parts of DNA that what you need
• 1:32:06
  for DNA to form are present on asteroids.
• 1:32:10
  So you're like, OK, right. So, and maybe that's part of.
• 1:32:13
  And it's the same type of DNA. I mean it's the same 4 letters
• 1:32:17
  etcetera. Right.
• 1:32:17
  Yeah, easily identifiable to us. And so I wonder, there's a
• 1:32:22
  little bit of kind of a drip bread, drip feeding, bread
• 1:32:27
  crumbing process going on. Oh my goodness, there's you
• 1:32:31
  know, so they don't come out and say, yeah, we're not alone in
• 1:32:35
  this universe, whatever that may mean by the way.
• 1:32:39
  But instead say, oh, well, scientifically we found this.
• 1:32:42
  And then, oh, separately we found that and separately.
• 1:32:45
  And I think part of it is our science is getting so good that
• 1:32:50
  it's undeniable that there is phenomena that it's anomalous,
• 1:32:56
  but it's consistent. It exists, it's there.
• 1:32:59
  And that's one of the reasons you're getting this uptick in
• 1:33:03
  the conversation about that subject.
• 1:33:05
  I mean, I was never into that subject.
• 1:33:09
  And during lockdown, I had some friends from my White House days
• 1:33:14
  say, you need to look at this. And I was like, really, guys,
• 1:33:18
  seriously? And they were like, yeah, you
• 1:33:20
  really do. So I started to look, and I
• 1:33:22
  realized, goodness, Congress is passing whistleblower
• 1:33:25
  legislation. We have very senior people from
• 1:33:29
  the intelligence and military community who are saying this is
• 1:33:34
  what occurred, and we have the data to prove that it occurred.
• 1:33:39
  And you suddenly started like something is going on.
• 1:33:44
  And maybe part of what it is, is our dogma is so deeply embedded
• 1:33:50
  that it's extremely difficult to break that.
• 1:33:53
  So you just kind of do this bread crumbing, drip feeding.
• 1:33:57
  And now, if you don't mind, I'll go into this just a little bit.
• 1:34:01
  There's an interesting angle on this related to Jeffrey Epstein
• 1:34:05
  and it's so strange and interesting.
• 1:34:07
  So the Jeffrey Epstein story is mainly about the sex
• 1:34:12
  trafficking, but I'm beginning to wonder if that's AI mean.
• 1:34:16
  Not that it's not real, but it's a little bit of a of a
• 1:34:19
  diversion. It's a it's not the core story.
• 1:34:23
  The core story is that he inherited from Robert Maxwell,
• 1:34:32
  who started Pergamon Press and ultimately McGraw Hill
• 1:34:38
  Publishing, and he created the entire scientific peer review
• 1:34:42
  system that we have today. Now, he was deeply involved in
• 1:34:46
  the intelligence world. As we now know, Epstein was
• 1:34:50
  working with many intelligence agencies and he was hugely
• 1:34:53
  involved in cutting edge scientific research and funding
• 1:34:57
  it. And you're like, what the heck
• 1:34:59
  is that about? And I suspect what it's about is
• 1:35:03
  that at the end of World War 2, when Robert Oppenheimer did
• 1:35:08
  manage to smash those atoms together and create the atom
• 1:35:13
  bomb, that technology was so dangerous that we decided we got
• 1:35:18
  to put that behind a classified wall, but also other things.
• 1:35:23
  So it wasn't the only thing. Now how do you do that?
• 1:35:29
  The answer is, well, if you create an academic peer review
• 1:35:32
  system so that all the innovative cutting edge
• 1:35:35
  scientists send you their articles.
• 1:35:39
  So now you have the first look. Now it's also very valuable
• 1:35:42
  because you can invest in things, but you can also decide
• 1:35:47
  which scientists will be allowed to go forward and win Nobel
• 1:35:50
  Prizes and which scientists will be crushed and moved aside,
• 1:35:56
  which are anti the dogma and which are pro the dogma.
• 1:36:00
  And I remember David Baum, who of course, was one of Einstein's
• 1:36:05
  contemporaries, who originally conceived of quantum physics,
• 1:36:09
  one of the early comprehensive thinkers about quantum physics,
• 1:36:13
  who studied ancient Indian texts very deeply.
• 1:36:18
  And and he was not just run out of town, they ran him out of the
• 1:36:24
  country. He was only allowed to teach it,
• 1:36:26
  I think it was Sao Paulo University in Argentina.
• 1:36:31
  But now the Nobel Prize has been awarded as of I think, two years
• 1:36:35
  ago for quantum physics. And David Baum doesn't look
• 1:36:38
  crazy anymore. But what happened was the
• 1:36:41
  decision had been made that this physics, the Einstein version,
• 1:36:47
  that's the dogma, and that's what we're going with.
• 1:36:49
  But does that mean that all the research on the other stuff
• 1:36:52
  stopped, or did it just go behind the classified wall?
• 1:36:57
  And so again, what was Epstein doing?
• 1:37:02
  He was constantly meeting with the top scientist, trying to
• 1:37:06
  understand where are the breakthroughs happening and who
• 1:37:10
  needs to be put behind a classified wall and who needs to
• 1:37:13
  be silenced and who needs to be given rewards.
• 1:37:16
  In other words, our science has its own control mechanisms that
• 1:37:22
  are built into it very deliberately.
• 1:37:25
  And that's why I think this announcement about the Genesis
• 1:37:28
  mission is especially important, because it's a way of breaking
• 1:37:33
  that academic peer review system that says those things can't be
• 1:37:39
  discussed. No matter how much good data you
• 1:37:42
  have, We're not going to allow a conversation because this isn't
• 1:37:46
  going to work anymore. We're in a world where more and
• 1:37:49
  more regular people have access to supercomputing, ChatGPT, and
• 1:37:54
  so discoveries are in the hands now of citizen scientists.
• 1:37:58
  This is just my opinion, but I think open source large language
• 1:38:02
  models will win. Yeah, I think.
• 1:38:04
  I think long term, I mean that, you know, we're talking about
• 1:38:07
  the the Stargate moment last year.
• 1:38:11
  Well, the DeepSeek moment literally was the day before.
• 1:38:15
  It was January 20th that China announced deep sea.
• 1:38:20
  Yeah, it was the day before and it took a week.
• 1:38:25
  It was the week later that NVIDIA and NASDAQ lost a
• 1:38:29
  trillion dollars a market cap because of it, because it took a
• 1:38:34
  while for the AI experts to dig into DeepSeek-R1 and find out
• 1:38:40
  how powerful it was. But yeah, they were literally a
• 1:38:45
  day apart. It was.
• 1:38:46
  It was announced the day before Stargate.
• 1:38:50
  January 20th was DeepSeek-R1. January 21st was Stargate.
• 1:38:55
  This mapping of the timelines is actually really important too,
• 1:38:59
  because I think we're going to find this question of who's
• 1:39:04
  ahead, China and the United States.
• 1:39:06
  It's not that one is ahead, it's that we're all getting to the
• 1:39:11
  technological frontier kind of together.
• 1:39:14
  Yes, I think it's an illusion that one creates AGI.
• 1:39:19
  And then there's this breakout moment where everybody's left in
• 1:39:22
  the dust. There, there.
• 1:39:25
  There's also a tremendous amount of cross pollinization of the
• 1:39:29
  engineers. Oh yeah.
• 1:39:31
  I mean, the what engineers are being paid, yeah, but also what
• 1:39:34
  they're being paid, there's tremendous incentive for them to
• 1:39:38
  move. Again, humanity's never
• 1:39:40
  prioritized anything with as much money, time and energy.
• 1:39:45
  And so that cross pollinization I think helps ensure that that
• 1:39:50
  AGI gets created almost simultaneously.
• 1:39:53
  Yeah, and there's also a dark side to all this.
• 1:40:00
  We recently saw the murder of the head of the plasma physics
• 1:40:05
  lab at MIT and. I haven't heard about that.
• 1:40:13
  Yeah. And that same week, the
• 1:40:18
  President Trump's company acquired a nuclear fusion
• 1:40:22
  project in a very big acquisition that this guy was
• 1:40:28
  one of the world's leading experts on.
• 1:40:30
  And the reason it's become interesting and controversial is
• 1:40:34
  because of this idea that actually, if you describe, you
• 1:40:39
  know, there's always been this debate.
• 1:40:40
  Is is, is is energy particles or waves, right.
• 1:40:46
  This fellow was leaning in the direction of its waves.
• 1:40:50
  And if it's waves, then there's this whole part of physics,
• 1:40:54
  scalar physics, which current physicists will be like.
• 1:40:58
  There's nothing to see here, that silliness.
• 1:41:01
  But if it is true, then our complete understanding of
• 1:41:05
  physics is so radically transformed and many
• 1:41:09
  technologies suddenly become possible.
• 1:41:12
  And I think it's a little bit bumping into all of Nicholas
• 1:41:15
  Tesla's ideas. And interestingly, couple things
• 1:41:18
  have happened very recently. One, they've started to
• 1:41:21
  declassify the Tesla papers. 2 We've just seen DARPA, which is
• 1:41:27
  of course the innovation unit of the US military, and I met the
• 1:41:32
  guy who did this, Paul Daffy. So they moved energy from one
• 1:41:38
  spot to another, I think it was 8 miles away, and popped popcorn
• 1:41:43
  at the other end, right? So this is wireless transmission
• 1:41:48
  of energy across Earth, which is exactly what Nicholas Tesla said
• 1:41:52
  was easily doable. And when I met him, I said, I, I
• 1:41:56
  suspect you guys picked popcorn because you're perfectly capable
• 1:41:59
  of doing much more than that. But you didn't want to scare
• 1:42:01
  anybody because people find it really scary, right?
• 1:42:04
  You can move energy wirelessly across long distances.
• 1:42:09
  And now we see Google announcing the Sun Catcher project, which
• 1:42:14
  is about beaming energy from space along with data to Earth.
• 1:42:20
  So I think what's happening is the dogmas around physics are
• 1:42:25
  breaking as these new innovations are happening, but
• 1:42:30
  we haven't yet fully understood the real impact of changing the
• 1:42:35
  story because it will change our understanding of where we've
• 1:42:39
  come from, how the universe works.
• 1:42:41
  Yeah, yeah. It's it's, it's again, it's a
• 1:42:43
  forcing function for us to break dogma overall that dogmas has
• 1:42:51
  held us back. And I understand the desire for
• 1:42:56
  comfort and like we've got our models and we know that this is
• 1:43:00
  how it works. I mean, I've, I've been told by
• 1:43:02
  quantum physicists, friends that they were told in school just
• 1:43:06
  shut up and calculate. Oh Oh yeah, I mean quantum
• 1:43:09
  physics even until 10 years ago was still considered like kind
• 1:43:15
  of a stupid waste of time by core physicists.
• 1:43:18
  Not serious. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 1:43:21
  Like, why are you asking questions?
• 1:43:23
  But I, you know, we need more Richard Feynman's.
• 1:43:25
  You know, I loved his line where he said I would rather live in a
• 1:43:29
  world where I can ask questions that have no answers than ask
• 1:43:37
  than no answers where I can't question them.
• 1:43:41
  You know, I'd love to, I'd love to talk about spirituality with
• 1:43:44
  you because we've kind of bounced around the edges.
• 1:43:46
  Where, where do you, where do you sit on your own, you know,
• 1:43:50
  understanding of, of spirituality and yeah.
• 1:43:53
  And any any spiritual experiences that you've.
• 1:43:55
  Had it's such a fascinating subject even to describe what
• 1:43:59
  constitutes a spiritual experience and.
• 1:44:03
  You know it when you feel it though.
• 1:44:04
  Yeah, yeah. But you know it when you feel
• 1:44:05
  it. Yeah.
• 1:44:06
  And they're so powerful when they happen.
• 1:44:11
  So I've had, yeah, a range of them.
• 1:44:13
  But all of them, well, that's not quite right.
• 1:44:16
  I was going to say all of them in my adult life, but my mom and
• 1:44:20
  my sisters reminded me that when I was about 6, I had a near
• 1:44:28
  death experience. I nearly drowned in a swimming
• 1:44:31
  pool. My mom went off to change my
• 1:44:33
  little sister's diapers and said don't go in the pool.
• 1:44:36
  And it was a big Marriott Hotel. And I saw all the kids jumping
• 1:44:40
  off the diving board and I thought it was so impressive.
• 1:44:43
  And I was like, oh, I, I'm going to show mom, I know how to do
• 1:44:46
  that, right? And I knew when I got to the end
• 1:44:49
  of the diving board that I was in big trouble.
• 1:44:51
  But I just thought, OK, but they're all doing it there must.
• 1:44:55
  And then I went down, never came back up again.
• 1:44:58
  The lifeguard said I was going down for the third time when
• 1:45:01
  they pulled me out. And apparently I came out of
• 1:45:06
  that. And when I was really little and
• 1:45:09
  we were not going to church as a family, religion wasn't a big
• 1:45:13
  part at that time in our family. And apparently I very calmly
• 1:45:18
  announced that I had met God and Jesus Christ and I was very calm
• 1:45:23
  and everything was great and it was really cool meeting them.
• 1:45:26
  So where did that come from? I have no idea.
• 1:45:30
  But I think having a near death experience in your life for the
• 1:45:34
  whole rest of your life, it echoes.
• 1:45:38
  And so I, I kind of have a, a bravery that I think stems from
• 1:45:46
  that. I'm not afraid of the unknown.
• 1:45:51
  I'm pretty confident that the universe has kind of got my
• 1:45:54
  back. I love this word pronoia, right?
• 1:45:58
  There's paranoia where you're sure that the universe is
• 1:46:01
  conspiring against you. And pronoia is where you're sure
• 1:46:04
  the universe is conspiring for you.
• 1:46:07
  And I feel pronoia a lot in my life.
• 1:46:11
  So I wonder whether it comes from that.
• 1:46:13
  Then more recently, I got divorced and somehow I knew I
• 1:46:20
  had to go to the top of the Himalayas but not Mount Everest,
• 1:46:24
  because it wasn't about the sort of ego getting to the top.
• 1:46:28
  It was just to be in the majesty of those mountains.
• 1:46:33
  And I ended up going to Annapurna Sanctuary.
• 1:46:36
  And when you go up, it's hard, but coming down is much harder
• 1:46:41
  because we don't use our downhill muscles very much.
• 1:46:44
  And I got to the top and slipped on the ice.
• 1:46:49
  It was the first accident that I'd had on that at that height
• 1:46:53
  up there. And suddenly my mortality was
• 1:46:57
  like right in my face. And as I came down, I realized
• 1:47:01
  I'd twisted my knee and I, I was suddenly aware there's no way
• 1:47:05
  down other than walking. There's no helicopter coming to
• 1:47:08
  get you at the top of the Himalayas.
• 1:47:11
  And, and it forced me to kind of confront some of my inner, my
• 1:47:18
  inner self. And I felt that I had been
• 1:47:25
  living a life where I was very, very in my masculine.
• 1:47:30
  I was, you know, working on trading floors, investment
• 1:47:33
  banking. I was in The West Wing of the
• 1:47:35
  White House with the president's advisors.
• 1:47:38
  These are very tough, combative environments.
• 1:47:41
  I was not in my feminine in those spaces.
• 1:47:46
  And I felt like I kind of had an inner marine.
• 1:47:49
  And my inner marine, which had accomplished so many tasks,
• 1:47:54
  collapsed on the way down from the top of the Himalayas.
• 1:47:57
  Like, it just had no more give and forced me to lean completely
• 1:48:03
  into my feminine. And at the time, it was
• 1:48:06
  terrifying. I was like, I don't even know
• 1:48:08
  what this is. I don't even know how.
• 1:48:11
  Like, how do you navigate this way?
• 1:48:14
  And since then, I'm finding, you know, especially, again, as an
• 1:48:18
  economist, it's a very masculine dominated profession because all
• 1:48:23
  numbers, it's all measurement. And I come in and I go like, let
• 1:48:28
  me tell you a story. And that's like a very feminine
• 1:48:32
  way of bringing the same truth to the table, right?
• 1:48:34
  We're both talking about the same thing, but in a very
• 1:48:37
  different way. And that's turned out to be kind
• 1:48:40
  of a superpower that I didn't know I had.
• 1:48:43
  So was that a spiritual experience?
• 1:48:46
  Yeah, it was. It was so profound for my inner
• 1:48:49
  sensibility. And then finally, I had an
• 1:48:53
  extraordinary experience with my dad, who had, as I said, worked
• 1:48:59
  for so many presidents and it was so senior in the world that
• 1:49:03
  he operated in. And I, he loved being briefed.
• 1:49:07
  I had he moved in with me for the last couple of years of his
• 1:49:10
  life. We had so much fun Which?
• 1:49:12
  Is beautiful we. Laughed our heads off and we had
• 1:49:16
  fun. And it was, it was such a joy to
• 1:49:19
  it. That's a gift to that you get to
• 1:49:21
  spend time with a parent when they're really elderly at any
• 1:49:26
  rate. So at one point, so we're
• 1:49:28
  briefing each other because I'm travelling around the world, I'm
• 1:49:30
  meeting with a lot of leaders. And he's like, tell me, you
• 1:49:33
  know, what's going on. And at one point I said, Dad,
• 1:49:37
  there's this one thing and you're going to think I've
• 1:49:40
  completely lost my marbles. But there's something weird
• 1:49:43
  going on with this anomalous phenomena.
• 1:49:46
  Non human intelligence. Congress is passing legislation.
• 1:49:50
  We got a ton of whistleblowers. We got data like.
• 1:49:53
  And he said, I know I worked on it from 1961.
• 1:49:59
  I was like. What?
• 1:50:00
  Right? You're like what?
• 1:50:02
  You haven't told me this. Yeah, which he didn't because it
• 1:50:04
  was all like hyper classified. But once he understood what was
• 1:50:09
  happening, he's like, ah, I need to tell my story of what I
• 1:50:16
  experienced with this because humanity needs to know.
• 1:50:21
  And so he did. He did a long interview with
• 1:50:24
  Jesse Michaels, who's also an Austinite, and it's an
• 1:50:30
  exceptional. So many amazing people moving
• 1:50:32
  here. You know you Mark.
• 1:50:33
  Gober, I told you today, Mark. Yeah, I'm so psyched that Mark
• 1:50:36
  is here. Actually.
• 1:50:36
  I'm going to reach out to him. I do think Austin, Austin is
• 1:50:40
  where the brightest minds are gathering.
• 1:50:43
  It's still one of the only places left where people can
• 1:50:48
  talk across the political divide.
• 1:50:51
  They're they're choosing not to fight over that day-to-day.
• 1:50:55
  And they're at the cutting edge of the technological frontier
• 1:50:59
  more than any other place I can find in the US.
• 1:51:02
  Which is what? Just to give you some insight as
• 1:51:04
  a guy born in Austin, born in 1972, that comes from, there's a
• 1:51:10
  book actually called The Dow Willy.
• 1:51:12
  It comes from Willie Nelson. Willie Nelson from the time I
• 1:51:17
  was just a little kid. It was my first concert.
• 1:51:19
  I was like 4 years old when I went to Willie Nelson's backyard
• 1:51:22
  barbecue. And he always would say, look,
• 1:51:27
  you know, it doesn't matter if you're Republican or Democrat,
• 1:51:30
  you just get together and have a beer and talk about all the
• 1:51:32
  things you have in common. And he set that tone and that's
• 1:51:38
  deeply inside me as a product of Austin, you know, a citizen for
• 1:51:43
  so long of this city that I just can't even imagine what it's
• 1:51:47
  become. I mean, it just blows my mind.
• 1:51:49
  So that's Willie Nelson's Cosmoporesis, isn't it?
• 1:51:52
  It is. He created a world.
• 1:51:54
  It is a way of being in this location.
• 1:51:58
  And I feel that now, and there's a lot of work being done on this
• 1:52:04
  question of this anomalous phenomena and what is it and how
• 1:52:07
  does it operate right here in Austin.
• 1:52:11
  So anyway, yeah, Now I, so I discovered that my own family
• 1:52:16
  has been involved with this for some time.
• 1:52:19
  And then I've begun to like, listen to the stories of the
• 1:52:22
  people who have had these experiences.
• 1:52:24
  And I realized it's so interesting.
• 1:52:27
  Why do we dismiss their stories? I mean, it's a bit like the Me
• 1:52:32
  Too movement, controversial as that is, but for a lot of women
• 1:52:37
  who were experiencing something terrible, why did no one listen?
• 1:52:42
  Why did we say that can't be true when it was?
• 1:52:47
  Maybe there's sometimes it wasn't true, but most of this it
• 1:52:50
  was. Same thing with what's happening
• 1:52:54
  with anomalous phenomena. And I am finding a lot of this
• 1:52:58
  cutting edge scientists as they get, as they're tight with the
• 1:53:03
  technological frontier and they see anomalous phenomena.
• 1:53:07
  That doesn't mean beings, that means strange phenomena that
• 1:53:12
  doesn't add up under normal dogma.
• 1:53:15
  And they are emotionally and spiritually moved by this.
• 1:53:20
  And it takes me back to Robert Oppenheimer.
• 1:53:22
  I always thought, how interesting.
• 1:53:24
  Why? Remember, he said he quoted from
• 1:53:27
  the Vedas. He quoted from the Gita.
• 1:53:30
  From the Bhagavad Gita. Yeah, the Bhagavad Gita.
• 1:53:32
  Quoted from the Bhagavad Gita. So first of all, why was he
• 1:53:35
  reading the Bhagavad Gita as a physicist?
• 1:53:38
  That's very interesting that he knew that history.
• 1:53:44
  And I just wonder, do we have a lot of technological innovators
• 1:53:50
  and scientists who are bumping into extraordinary phenomena,
• 1:53:54
  but they haven't read the ancient wisdom, so they don't
• 1:53:57
  recognize it. What if they're seeing
• 1:53:59
  Indrasnet, but they don't know what Indrasnet is because they
• 1:54:02
  never read the book? And So what can we bring from
• 1:54:06
  our ancient spiritual traditions that would allow them to
• 1:54:12
  recognize and articulate? I remember a friend of mine was
• 1:54:17
  creating an AI that was bringing the ancient wisdoms together,
• 1:54:22
  like an AI of ancient wisdom traditions.
• 1:54:25
  And I mentioned this to somebody who was very senior at one of
• 1:54:28
  the big news publications like the sort of The Economist.
• 1:54:32
  And they went, that's a ridiculous idea.
• 1:54:34
  And I remember thinking, is it, is it a, or is that actually a
• 1:54:39
  very brilliant idea? This guy doesn't recognize it,
• 1:54:43
  but so. Well, I'm an entrepreneur and
• 1:54:46
  I've been told every business when I've started.
• 1:54:48
  It was ridiculous. I do, yes.
• 1:54:51
  So, I mean, entrepreneurs are used to that tend to be a little
• 1:54:54
  bit better at overcoming dogma because they're always told that
• 1:54:58
  they're gonna fail at the beginning and probability wise
• 1:55:02
  they will. But ultimately, you know, being
• 1:55:06
  able to go after something that seems impossible and really go
• 1:55:10
  for it. In in terms of in terms of your
• 1:55:13
  dad though, I lost the thread in terms of the spiritual side of
• 1:55:16
  that, the spiritual experience. Well, so his was, well, first of
• 1:55:22
  all, it's just it was for both of us quite a spiritual moment
• 1:55:27
  to see that our we had come to this from such totally
• 1:55:33
  unexpectedly. Different angles at the.
• 1:55:37
  End of his life, you know, just such a surprise.
• 1:55:41
  But yeah, he spoke about missile tests during the Cuban Missile
• 1:55:49
  Crisis where and their videos of this on the net.
• 1:55:55
  One was taken by an airplane from Los Alamos and one taken by
• 1:55:59
  an airplane from Lawrence Livermore Labs.
• 1:56:02
  And one of the videos shows what happens.
• 1:56:05
  The other has a triangle that obfuscates so you can't see.
• 1:56:09
  So one they tried to classify and the other one they're like,
• 1:56:13
  we're just, it got released. Nobody thought about it.
• 1:56:16
  But basically you see a white orb show up and flying around
• 1:56:22
  the missile and then it falls into the ocean when the missile
• 1:56:26
  goes off. And my dad said this became like
• 1:56:31
  hyper secret. And he was asked to fly out to
• 1:56:34
  Los Alamos, have a conversation with the director about the fact
• 1:56:38
  that we shot down something that we knew existed but had not
• 1:56:43
  brought one down before. And I said, what do you mean
• 1:56:46
  knew existed? And he said, well, we call them
• 1:56:48
  tagalongs. I said, wait, that implies you
• 1:56:51
  saw them all the time. He said, yeah, I said this is
• 1:56:54
  the height of the Cuban missile crisis, so weren't you worried
• 1:56:57
  that this thing might be Russian?
• 1:56:59
  He said, no, we knew it wasn't, but you didn't know what it was.
• 1:57:02
  He was like, yeah, we just saw him all the time.
• 1:57:05
  When you Fast forward, another person who's moved to Austin is
• 1:57:10
  Ryan Graves. The I didn't know he.
• 1:57:14
  Moved to Austin. Yeah, that's really cool.
• 1:57:15
  Yeah, I, I someone recently offered to introduce.
• 1:57:19
  Us. Yeah, I'll introduce.
• 1:57:20
  That's cool. Yeah.
• 1:57:21
  You know, Navy pilot, squadron commander, Top Gun instructor.
• 1:57:27
  Like, you can't get more top of the line than Ryan Graves.
• 1:57:31
  And he's the one who led the effort to bring multiple sensors
• 1:57:37
  to what they were seeing every day in the air.
• 1:57:39
  So floor cameras, radar, you know, all kinds of different
• 1:57:44
  data gathering devices and then comparing, and they all show the
• 1:57:48
  same thing. So for the first time, it wasn't
• 1:57:51
  pilots having an imaginary breakdown.
• 1:57:53
  It's actual data. And then he presented that to
• 1:57:59
  the powers that be as a health and safety issue for because
• 1:58:04
  it's billions of dollars of aircraft and millions of dollars
• 1:58:08
  of pilots. And so if they're getting close,
• 1:58:12
  like this is a problem. And that led to a lot of what we
• 1:58:16
  see now in the open discussion about this issue.
• 1:58:19
  So in that sense, my dad had a very spiritual experience of
• 1:58:25
  understanding that he had life experience and knowledge of
• 1:58:30
  something that he then wanted to pass to humanity, which he did.
• 1:58:36
  For me, it was like, wow, OK, this is just more proof point
• 1:58:42
  that all these stories that we hear from experiencers, rather
• 1:58:49
  than dismissing them, we should listen.
• 1:58:53
  Yeah, yeah, we should accept humans have their unique
• 1:58:56
  stories. Yeah, yeah.
• 1:58:57
  And that's just the way it is. One, one of the most fascinating
• 1:59:02
  parts of the Joel Schaefer episode, which is episode 16 of
• 1:59:06
  the podcast, is his theory. And, you know, he would actually
• 1:59:13
  say it's annoying because he's, he's very deeply rooted in
• 1:59:18
  Toltec teachings and, you know, lucid dreaming.
• 1:59:22
  And he said that the UAP phenomenon, he was 100% certain
• 1:59:29
  that we make it. He wasn't like me 95% right.
• 1:59:33
  And he was that he, he was certain because he said the UAP
• 1:59:36
  phenomenon, you know, the, the, the appearances that are
• 1:59:41
  stopping the nuclear weapons from working, etcetera.
• 1:59:43
  All the things that you've reported on, you know, prior
• 1:59:47
  speeches. Mark Gobert reported in his book
• 1:59:50
  On Contact that that's actually us from the future of saving
• 1:59:54
  ourselves. This is a theory.
• 1:59:56
  This is a theory that's going around.
• 1:59:59
  I'm like, I have no means of like assessing that in any way,
• 2:00:04
  but I get that that's a possibility.
• 2:00:07
  Well, one of the things, one of the things that I think about
• 2:00:10
  the UA PS and this is this is my logical kind of rational mind
• 2:00:14
  working through it. And I'm a deeply spiritual
• 2:00:17
  person. But for what it's worth, like
• 2:00:23
  if, if, if Uaps are here, then that means that they can travel
• 2:00:28
  either interdimensionally or faster and lightspeed.
• 2:00:31
  And if they can do that, then then that means that they must
• 2:00:35
  have gotten to the point where love conquered their fear, or
• 2:00:39
  they would have faster and lightspeed weapons and
• 2:00:42
  interdimensional weapons. And if they had faster and
• 2:00:45
  lightspeed weapons and they use them, then we would be toast
• 2:00:52
  faster than I could complete the sentence.
• 2:00:54
  Right? Exactly.
• 2:00:55
  So that's the part that if if if there are UA PS here, which I
• 2:01:01
  have no reason to doubt that these stories aren't true, and
• 2:01:05
  the people testifying that there must be some benevolent purpose
• 2:01:11
  behind it somewhere as opposed to a devious purpose.
• 2:01:15
  So that's another very interesting piece of the puzzle
• 2:01:19
  I noticed. I have noticed that the people
• 2:01:23
  that are often sent to deal with this phenomena, whatever it is,
• 2:01:29
  come from special OPS backgrounds, right?
• 2:01:33
  And so, and you'll hear them and they, when they're interviewed
• 2:01:37
  and they'll say it was very frightening and they'll talk
• 2:01:41
  about a hitchhiker effect like Skinwalker Ranch for the go.
• 2:01:45
  And, you know, just to be clear, the US government has spent a
• 2:01:48
  ton of money studying these phenomena.
• 2:01:51
  So it's not like, you know, you're imagining that there are
• 2:01:54
  programs they've been studying for a very, very long time in
• 2:02:01
  lots of different ways. So they will talk in very dark
• 2:02:05
  terms about their experience, but I just wonder, is that
• 2:02:09
  because they've been trained in a very, it's my space and I have
• 2:02:16
  to get you out and we're going to fight to the death, right?
• 2:02:19
  That's the mentality that they bring.
• 2:02:22
  Whereas, you know, I know people who are very spiritual, who
• 2:02:27
  enter these sorts of spaces and they have totally divine
• 2:02:30
  experiences, something beautiful, something very
• 2:02:33
  insightful, wisdom is downloaded into them.
• 2:02:38
  So is it our attitude? Does that matter?
• 2:02:44
  I would say yes. It's back to be careful what you
• 2:02:47
  think because your thoughts define the reality.
• 2:02:50
  If so, it's like what Nietzsche, the philosopher said.
• 2:02:54
  You stare into the abyss, the abyss stares back at you.
• 2:02:57
  It's a mirror. So could it be that our own
• 2:03:01
  consciousness is defining what we experienced?
• 2:03:06
  Because we've already decided if something arrives that I'm
• 2:03:10
  unfamiliar with, I'm going to be afraid, I'm going to have a
• 2:03:13
  fight, I'm going to run away, or something arrives, you're going
• 2:03:17
  to go, cool, what is this? It's different ways of
• 2:03:23
  interfacing with the same thing. Yeah, it all comes back to love.
• 2:03:27
  Conquers fear. It does.
• 2:03:28
  We have to have the heart conquer the head for humanity to
• 2:03:34
  make it. Get past the dogma.
• 2:03:37
  Go wherever the science takes us.
• 2:03:39
  Be unafraid of what we're going to discover.
• 2:03:42
  Be more curious about it. Bring science and spirituality
• 2:03:47
  back together, not this dogmatic separation that it doesn't need
• 2:03:51
  to occur. Yeah.
• 2:03:53
  And I wanna honor the time here cuz I know that we're a little
• 2:03:57
  bit past the time that you agreed to, but I really, really
• 2:04:00
  love this conversation. I mean, I could honestly go on
• 2:04:03
  with you for hours and hours. I mean, next thing you know,
• 2:04:05
  this would be like a Joe Rogan little podcast or something.
• 2:04:09
  Who's here in Austin? Who is also here?
• 2:04:11
  Everybody's here. Yeah, I'd love to help you, you
• 2:04:14
  know, get get more networked around here.
• 2:04:17
  When did you officially move here?
• 2:04:18
  So well, I officially got here around about June, but I've been
• 2:04:23
  traveling like. I know you travel a lot.
• 2:04:25
  It's been insane because once both Goldman Sachs and McKenzie
• 2:04:29
  came out and said geopolitics is the number one issue.
• 2:04:32
  Yeah. And I started writing about this
• 2:04:34
  issue like 20 years ago. Yeah.
• 2:04:36
  So it's just hot topic so I've hardly been here, but I really
• 2:04:42
  love what I'm seeing here and I want to get deeper.
• 2:04:45
  Into the IT really is where the consciousness awakening is
• 2:04:48
  underway and that's coinciding with the with the rise in AI and
• 2:04:52
  I I think the two are intimately linked and are Frank frankly
• 2:04:57
  going to be self reinforcing as we've as we're really broken
• 2:05:00
  down here. But yeah, I really, really
• 2:05:02
  appreciate it. Thank you so much.
• 2:05:04
  Yeah, what an honor and and I'll make sure to put a link to your
• 2:05:09
  sub stack. Are there any other things that
• 2:05:11
  you'd like me to link to? For no, for the moment I do
• 2:05:14
  write a column on sub stack. Yeah, which is great.
• 2:05:17
  I. Really like it.
• 2:05:19
  Thank you. And I am working on a book
• 2:05:22
  that's kind of a sequel to my book Signals about where we're
• 2:05:26
  going in the world economy. And it's a very positive,
• 2:05:29
  upbeat, very much along the lines of your thought process
• 2:05:32
  than what we've just explored here today.
• 2:05:36
  And I don't know when it'll be done.
• 2:05:37
  I'm wearing as fast as I can. Yeah, Yeah.
• 2:05:39
  Well, very, very cool. Well, thank you again.
• 2:05:41
  Thank you again so much. So thanks everybody again for
• 2:05:44
  tuning in to Love Conquers Fear. Keep the love coming.
• 2:05:49
  It really fuels me. I have an incredible, incredible
• 2:05:53
  lineup. I am fully booked for the next
• 2:05:56
  two months. You'll be really, really happy
• 2:05:59
  with who is going to be on the podcast, from scientists to
• 2:06:03
  entrepreneurs to investors to philosophers.
• 2:06:07
  It's going to be a tremendous amount of fun.
• 2:06:09
  I'm learning a lot in doing this and I'm diving back into one
• 2:06:15
  book that I loved in 2025, LSD and the Mind of the Universe.
• 2:06:22
  Chris Baish is the ultimate pioneer who really was willing
• 2:06:26
  to die to understand the nature of our reality.
• 2:06:29
  So I'm reading it for the third time because he is about to stay
• 2:06:35
  at our home and we're going to record Love Conquers Fear and
• 2:06:38
  also host a dinner with Tom Morgan and the Leading Edge
• 2:06:42
  group, which I'm involved in as well as a Jason Carp.
• 2:06:46
  And I cannot wait for that. So just stay tuned.
• 2:06:51
  You'll love seeing Chris Bosh on the podcast.
• 2:06:54
  And if you haven't read LSD in the Mind of the Universe.
• 2:06:58
  And just to be clear, I'm not suggesting that I personally
• 2:07:02
  would do what he did. And he is very open that he
• 2:07:07
  regrets taking the high doses of LSD that he did for 20 years.
• 2:07:12
  But ultimately, he lived to tell the tale and came back to help
• 2:07:16
  decode our reality. And it's one of my favorite
• 2:07:19
  books in terms of understanding a reality.
• 2:07:22
  And it it echoes throughout so many other things that I've
• 2:07:26
  read, including ancient spiritual texts.
• 2:07:28
  So I think you'd really love listening to that one on Audible
• 2:07:31
  where you can hear the awe and wonder and deep humility in his
• 2:07:35
  voice. So thanks again.
• 2:07:37
  Keep the love coming. Team Humanity all the way.