Latest / Booked On Rock with Eric Senich / "Body Count's Body Count (33 1/3)"/Ben Apatoff [Episode 157]

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"Body Count's Body Count (33 1/3)"/Ben Apatoff [Episode 157] · Booked On Rock with Eric Senich

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We're totally booked in rock and roll. I think I'll leave you. You're
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reading Little Hands, It's time to rock and roll. Roll down, we
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are totally booked. Welcome to book don Rock, the podcast for those about
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to read and rock. Find the podcasts at bookdown rock dot com. You
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could find every episode of bookdown Rock there, along with links to your favorite
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listening platforms, exclusive videos, blogs, links to all of the social media
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sites, and find out the latest rock book releases there. Bett Apatof is
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a returning guest. His latest book, body Counts. Body count is part
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of the thirty three and a third series. It's an exploration and look back
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at the nineteen ninety two self titled debut album from mice Ta's heavy metal band
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body Count. To hear body Counts self titled debut album, head over to
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the show notes page. Hey Ben, welcome back to the podcast. Good
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to see you again. Thanks, good to see you two. I had
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you here for your Metallica book, which was we were talking before we recorded
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about I don't know, a year a year and a half ago, yeah,
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a little about yeah, about a year and a half ago. Because
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the book was August twenty twenty one, so it's my press after that.
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Yep. So it's great to have you back on, and this time around,
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this is a topic. This is a band that I really didn't know
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a whole lot about. And I have to admit when the album came out
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in ninety one, right, ninety one, ninety two towards ninety one,
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album is ninety two. So yeah, I just I was still about three
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to four years away from getting into rap and hip hop. And I became
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a fan of Tupac and Biggie and Ice Cube and Nwa, but at the
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time, I still was I still was resistant to this idea of rap and
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rock together. I just I wasn't ready to embrace it. So I just
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let it pass me by. And all these years later, your book comes
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out. Now I'm preparing and I read the book, and as I'm reading
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it, I got the album playing. I was like, how did I
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miss this? This is good shit. Yeah, I'm you know, it's
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so great to have you on just to talk about this. Let's start with
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when you discovered this album. You got it when it came out. I
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got a little after it came out, you know, it was the late
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nineties. I was in high school, and another kid played it for me
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in the school library and he was like, I was into like punk and
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mel I had just gotten into like the Misfits and bands like that, and
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other kids like you will not believe this band. This is iced Tea.
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It's body Count, and uh the first time I heard was KKK Bitch,
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and I was like, what is this. It's just like it's funny,
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it's scary, it's catchy, and you know, it felt very punk rock
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to me. This was like my sort of you know, had my I
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was having my like Metallican Guns and Roses wave and then like my sort of
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Dead Kenny's Black Flag wave and this was like part of that. And uh,
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you know I was mentioning I was not I had. I had also
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never bought any wraps, so this was my first time hearing sort of inner
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city stories at iced Tea has. He's you know, he's sort of a
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definitive rapper and also very unique. So that was as both sort of hearing
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that stuff for the first time, but also in the very unique way that
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he is as a lyricist and mc. It was also the version I heard
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was the censored version. It did not have cop Killer on it so,
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and there was not a lot about that story at the time. There wasn't
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a lot about them online or in magazines, so it felt like kind of
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mystery to me. And I read, I think on AllMusic dot Com like
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dada song that got taken off. But I did not realize how big that
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story had gotten. So but I thought of it as like a like a
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cool punk rock record. Not a lot of people at my school had heard
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of it, and it was kind of like, you know, yeah,
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I kind of thought of him as like Henry Rollins type. I'd say he
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wasn't established rapper at that time, right, an established rapper, and you
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know, you're actually talking about the crossover. He went on the first law
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pelluse a tour as a rapper is the only rapper on the tour, and
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he kind of brought his high school friends on as a way to sort of
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like help them out, but also like show his rock chopped and he would
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kind of, you know, play his rap set and then halfway through tell
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the crowd, all right, just watch this and bring out the body count
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guys and do this kind of explosive set of you know, metal and punk
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songs, and yeah, that's what I was going to ask you about what's
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the origins of Body Count iced Tea. He didn't intend to be the front
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man either, that's true. That was not part of the plan. He
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knew all those guys in high school, you know iced T. His parents
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both passed away when he's very young. He got moved off to live with
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his aunt in California. He went to a high school in South Central He
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metal by count guys. Also, you know, iced T grows up in
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nineteen seventies. He does not have a rap influence there, right, I
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mean, he's this is before like run DMC in the Sugar Hell Gang.
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So he can't be like, that's my influences. So he's got a cousin
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who he has to share room with, who is ruling into seventies classic rock
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radio. So he grows up on like Bluister Calton, Black Sabbath and bands
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like that. He loves Parliament Funkadelic, he likes he loves the kind of
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spoken word jazzy guys like Gil Scott Heron and Iceberg Slim, and he befriends
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his kind of rock players in high school. So that's Ernie, that's beat
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Master V. That's those guys who had not been body accounts. And I
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guess one consistent thing that comes up again and again with a body Count,
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with the icy story overall, is many people will be like Ice never forgets
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his friends, never forgets his boyhood friends. They're like and the people get
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teary eyed talking about like he gives his old buddies jobs, you know,
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and music and in TV and in his home, working in his garage and
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things like that, and uh, yeah, he can't stayed in touch with
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his friends like Ernie and with Moose Man and people like that, and uh,
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you know, kind of gave him a hand. He started showing up
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on some songs and started trying to pass them on to his record label people,
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and then you know they're like, you know, yeah, you can
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do uh both this and body Count, and yeah, he kind of hustled
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him through that way to a Warner Brothers. Yeah. I mentioned he did
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establish himself by that time as a rap, one of the biggest, because
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he had singles like Colors he had I remember knew Jack Hustler that was just
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prior to Body Count or maybe around the same time that came out, So
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he definitely was legit, you know, he was among the biggest of the
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rap artist at that time, and here comes out with body Count. So
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what's the story behind the name body Count? Because you mentioned this in the
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book, it's actually got more than one meaning to it. Yeah, you
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know one thing about body Count. I think it's a it's a brilliant band
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name. It's a little bit like the sex Pistols or whole and that you
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can kind of project your ideas of violence or sex onto it, right,
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you know. He's sort of It's funny when when his first rap album comes
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out, Rhyme Pays, he has a printal advisory that's sort of tubular shape
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here, and an interviewer says, okay, so you've got this this one
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that he sort of self designed, right, He's like, you, I
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want people to know there's something forbidden here they can't hear. He kind of
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plays with the censorship team. He says, it's okay, so you've got
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this tubular shape? Is that Is that a bullet? Is it a condom?
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Was it isn't? He's like, well, what do you project on
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that? That's you know, and he kind of likes to keep people guessing.
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So with body Count, he says, well, you know, there's
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the socially conscious term. There's you know, kids are getting killed in the
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inner city, and the newscasters treat like a body account. They're like,
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you know, sixteen youth killed in gang homicides. Now sports, that's a
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body account, he says. You know, there's the sort of the body
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account of the mosh pit. He's a big mash pit guy. He talks
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about, you know, I love getting the crowd in mosh but I love
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performing in front of that. That's the most exciting thing. He loves the
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crowd surf, you know, he says, like, you know, that's
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the body count. Like, you know, you see the kids getting in
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the moshpit, that's the body account. He says. You know, we're
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backstage, We've got girls getting backstage. We've got a different kind of body
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account there. That's you know, he likes to be quite about that in
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interviews, so a few different things that he kind of he likes to sort
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of keep people guessing with the name and they can see body counts, like,
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oh, is that it is a violence thing? Is that a sex
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thing? What is that? And he definitely invites that sort of mystery and
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curiosity with the band Nam. You mentioned the song that wasn't on the album
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that you initially got, So let's get to that, because the book starts
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on July twenty eighth, nineteen ninety two. There's a news conference in Los
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Angeles at the I think it's pronounced the Softotel Hotel, Is that right?
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Yeah, body count by now had caused the music industry's biggest media storm.
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And you write quote other artists might have craved the notoriety or played it up
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for publicity, but at the Soft Fodel iced Tea put a halt to it.
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Talk about the song that caused the media uproar and what he decides to
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do as a result, and how that specific decision was met with criticism from
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the fans in the media. It was like he was in a no win
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situation. Yeah, that song was called cop Killer. It became a part
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of a big controversy. So that's you know, he's playing it on Lollapalooza
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for about a year and that's the last song on the record. Rapford.
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The record comes out that Ronnie king Verdick comes in La breaks out in violence.
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There's a presidential election year. There are a lot of people focusing on
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you know, police brutality and issues and stuff like that. Rap is kind
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of like a big scary buzzword. You know, there's family values issues and
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stuff like that. And even though it's not raps song, he gets kind
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of targeted. A teen girl brings the record home. Her father's a policeman
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in Texas, and he prints in the police news letter, like, you
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know, this is a major record, and you know the record has had
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sort of a cult success, right, It does about as well as you
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expect someone who is on that first of all pelooza and colaboring with Henry Rollins
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to do. It's sort of like a cult thing, but it's not kind
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of guns n' roses numbers, right, So it gets in the hands of
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this policeman he puts in a newspaper, it gets passed on to another policeman
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who's in charge of a union Texas, and it breaks out into a big
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nationwide discussion. The presidential candidates comment on it, the news hour shows comment
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on it. It's in the New York Times, CNN, MTV. There
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are death threats, there are bomb threats. There's a lot going on,
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and Ice T takes the song off the record. He throws a press conference.
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He shocks people. You know, I note in the book that he
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probably does the thing that would offend the most people. Right. His fans
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are unhappy about it. They think he checkinged out his supporters, the people,
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the rappers think that this is going to be the end of hip hop
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because people are gonna there's gonna be more censorship. The police are not happy
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about it because they think that there should be bigger apology. So he basically
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offends the most people when he takes the song off the record. And on
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that note, I think that the book shows you he's a little bit like
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I think in a little bit like the Paul Newman character cool Hand Luke,
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right, where people like him because he's a rebel, and then they're disappointed
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when he seems to cave in, right when he seems to compromise his turn
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aggressive behavior. But then his compromises turned out to be even more rebellious than
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initially seen. You know, just a few days after that, he's on
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the cover of Rolling Stone. He's wearing a policeman's uniform and people are furious
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at him. You know, he could have been giving the finger. It
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would have been less offensive. It's more offensive than he's doing that. And
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it takes a song off the record that gets more attention paid to it,
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The sales go up, it becomes this kind of legendary status that the song
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that actually got taken off the record. And yeah, he gets a lot
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of bad press and a lot of people are upset with him for taking it
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off initially. But and he gets this didn't go in the book. I
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saw there was something like Hustler magazine called him like the pussy of the year
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or something like that. He had sort of a there was a sort of
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yeah, exactly right, and there was this big you know, he said
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something about him and Chuck d had an interviewer where they talked about and said
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something like, look, people who are not in the war shouldn't comment on
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it, right. You know, you don't know what it's like to get
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those death threats. You don't know what it's like to have the people you
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care about threatened someone that the source magazine was like, isn't that some kind
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of juice, some kind of stats and ice. He's like, yeah,
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the kind of way you killed. He brought more attention to it by one.
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They'll add to this. I did not get permission for this, but
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I initially wanted the book to have an epigraph from the artist Boski, who
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said, I crossed out words. Do you see them more right? So
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you pay more attention to the things that crossed, Like what's he hiding there?
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What did he change? What did he get out of that? And
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I think that by taking the song off the record, initially it looks like
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he lost the battle, but in the long run, people pay more attention
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to that song, and that's the way. Yeah, it seemed like he
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was playing a little chess game there. Yeah, yeah, I think he
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was thinking about the long run with that, kind of like cool hand Lukey
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sort of does a compromise that people think is a sellout, you know,
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or chickening out, and then the long run he becomes an even bigger rebellious
12:33
figure than he was at the time. And the album was going to be
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called cop Killer. Why did you decide to change it? There's something Warner
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who was a very loyal guy for the team. He was There are so
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many things that had to take out because the third and third books are short,
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but he was actually the guy who bought Prince to Warner Brothers. He
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was a big deal there, and his father was a policeman. And he
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expressed some mild concerns about the last song on the album, which is called
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cop Killer, and I iced to at the time, very very very popular
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at Warner Brothers. He's got incredible business skills, incredible people skills. All
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the upper CEO types love him. He makes them feel cool. He's making
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them a lot of money. And he says, all right, you know,
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we'll just call the album body Count, will not take the song off.
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And you know, an interview says everyone knows what the album's really called,
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and he says something, it's like the art of being hardcore. You
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have to make some changes and still get your own way. And yeah,
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I think that was worth it him to do that. One thing that stood
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out in the chapter that goes into Ice Tea's history is the fact that Bob
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Dylan had become a fan of them back in the late eighties certainly nineties,
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although maybe not if you look at it from a different perspective, from an
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artist perspective, maybe it does make sense. But he told producer Daniel Lenoir
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that Ice Tea and Public Enemy quote laid down the tracks. He said they
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were all poets and they knew what was going on. Part of me was
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surprised, like I said, but part of me not so surprised, because
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if you look at it from an artist perspective, Bob Dylan would appreciate that
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honesty in the Laks and the fact that he's honest about he sees around him
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and he's putting into the music. So I guess from that perspective, not
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surprising. But what was your reaction to reading that? You know, I
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kind of had the same thing where I've actually forgotten about that part of Bob
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Dylan's book until fairly recently, But I remember real at the time at first
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being like, oh, that's a surprise, and then like, think about
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from another moment, I guess it makes sense that he'd like Ice Tea and
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Public Enemy and people like that. Iced Tea has a part in one of
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his books where he writes about Seymour Stein's signing him to the record label and
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saying like, you know, you sound like Bob Dylan to me, and
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Ice he says, well, you know, if you think about it,
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subterranean homesick blues, this is a great rap song, right, And that's
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the nineteen sixties, so I can definitely see how they're kindred spirits. They
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also both name themselves after poets that they liked, Bob Dylan after Dylan Thomas,
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I after Iceberg. Slim getting over the initial shock of like brilliant he
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likes that and like, oh yeah, that's that totally makes sense that he'd
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like iced tea. Talk about ice He's approach to dealing with censorship and conservative
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labeled decisions in terms of willing to compromise. This is kind of similar to
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his decision to pull cop Killers off. He didn't mind compromising, or,
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as he said a quote, seem like he's compromising in order to still get
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his way. Smart approach, do you think or would you rather see an
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artist just say take it or leave it? Well, you know, he's
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an interesting guy. He plays a lot with especially leading up to the cop
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killer battle. He likes to play a lot with censorship. You know,
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he's a big debater, kind of like Frank Zappa. He or Gelby offer.
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He debates the PMRC about censorship and music. He likes to talk about
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the Sheriff's Department keeps them from playing some shows on the Sunset Strip in La
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and he likes to talk about that interview is like we got sensor that's cool,
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right, or there Goes in the AIRPUOD videos coming out, he says,
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we want something that like pushes the edge, like you want a censor,
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but you can't sensor right. And the comic book series that he's a
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inking a deal with is called a bit until it's the taglines bite before it's
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band. You know, he kind of likes to play with that idea,
15:50
but he knows that edge that he can sell. He also, I think
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navigates that for his success. You know. One of the things he opened
15:58
up to me about when I talked to him was, I said, somebody
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kind of what you ask? I said, so nice. You're a famously
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uncompromising artist. Why is it now with the early nineties with original gangs,
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norm with body count that you come up with like the radio edits for the
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songs like there Goes the Neighborhood? Has lyrics changed for TV? And he
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said, you know, early on my career my thought was, look,
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I'm an artist. I'm a I'm an album guy. I'm not a singles
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guy. I'm not a radio guy. Don't change my lyrics, right,
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don't don't sensor my words, and he said, and then I saw that
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NWA and people like that would reach a wider audience by coming up with the
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edited versions, and that nobody thought any less of them. Nobody was like,
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oh they did the edits version. They sold out right, and it's
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like, you know what, I kind of shot myself on the foot.
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He's like, I hate doing it. I still don't like, you know,
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to this day, they're like, can you come up with the radio
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edit? And I don't want to, but he said, but yeah,
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I realized that I was just being stubborn in not regardless. Yeah, it
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would have opened the door. Yeah, exactly, Yeah, a clean version.
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Yeah, yeah, let's get into the album starts off with the sound
17:02
of Rain, which is first thought as Black Sabbath, you know, the
17:04
debut, but yeah, then we hear a spoken word track titled Smoked Pork,
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a funny and fatal exchange with a policeman. Six spoken word tracks in
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all on this album, which are interesting. Smoked Pork segs into body counts
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in the House, and you write, quote, when body counts in the
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house, it's both a party and a home invasion depending on the listener.
17:25
So I want to ask you about guitarist Ernie c Here because he also co
17:29
produced the album with Ice tea what a riff and a solo on this track.
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His instrumental on the album's C note is beautiful. What is his backstory?
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He's from Compton, right, Ernie is great. He grew up in
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the Detroit area and they moved out to Los Angeles with his single father.
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Went to a Prince of High school where he met the bike hunt guys.
17:51
Ernie is a great guitar player. He's got also a big classic rock influence.
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He likes the Shredders. He likes them. You know, he's going
17:59
to see Van Halen and clubs. He told me some good Eddie stories.
18:03
They didn't get to include off on the book. Which of the time.
18:04
Oh yeah, yeah. So he he's a great guitarist. He plays in
18:11
school. He loves led Zeppelin. He's sneaking in to watch the song remains
18:14
the same. He and Ice worked very well together. You know. He's
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says that some guitar workers just like you know, the guitarist going crazy,
18:21
and Ice canna be like, okay, like you know, slow it down.
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Mc A riff they have This is a cliche note, but they do
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have kind of a i'd said they up coming mcekeith relationship where the shares songwriting
18:30
duties. They've know each other since they were kids. They know each other
18:34
very well. They've got both sort of like rock star musical chops together.
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Another thing else about Ernie two is that everybody told me lean up to my
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conversation with Ernie, like, you're gonna love Ernie. He's so nice,
18:45
he's so cool, he's so sweet, and they're absolutely right. He is
18:49
the nicest man. He gets back to you quickly, he puts you in
18:52
touch with people. He is so thoughtful and nice and you know, just
18:56
like a good guy in rock and I cannot think of a better person to
19:00
write a book with. That said, with all that being true, Ernie
19:06
and Nice are the bosses. And I think that when you read profiles of
19:08
the sort of like nice guys of rock music, like Bruce, like Dave
19:11
Grohl, like like Eddie and Halen, you know, you often see that
19:15
the under the nice guy and not enough about them being that boss. And
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I wanted to make it clear that you know, Ernie's the nicest guy,
19:22
but he also he hustles. He gets people to show up to rehearsal,
19:25
he gives out report cards on how they did. He fires people and he
19:27
has too and he definitely is like a very focused, driven writer around musician.
19:33
So he's absolutely just totally sally sweet him in being and some of people
19:37
have great stories about how much they love Ernie. But he's also uh,
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you know, he's he said something to me along the lines of, you
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know, people thinks I'm only back him a pushover and he's not. He's
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a great dude who's also like very driven. Yeah that's not. So he's
19:49
got a new fan here, he's yeah, yeah, I'm a new fan.
19:52
Ben Apatov is our guest. His new book body Counts. Body Counts
19:56
part of the thirty three and a third series, and we should throw in
19:59
a a free plug the Metallica book. We were mentioning the twenty four ninety
20:03
five book, right yeah, yeah, yeah. The title track to body
20:07
count you can hear a Zeppelin stay away to have an influence there and Ernie
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cs intro and as you said, a huge Zeppelin fan. The main riff
20:14
it's like an old chuck Berry lick. According to Ernie, he I think
20:17
he told you that right, So I'm interested in your thoughts on this song
20:19
since it this may be my personal favorite track from the album. It's punk,
20:22
it's metal, it's rap, it's protest song. It's got a drum
20:26
solo from beat Master V which is like jazzy, a guitar solo, a
20:30
cool bass section at the start from a moose Man, right, yes,
20:34
right, yeah, yeah, and it all works, which is not easy
20:37
to do. It's it's remarkable and it sounds so simple. I mean,
20:41
it sounds like kind of like an old Chuck Berry riff count of the back
20:45
to basics rock. It sounds a little punk, little metal. But when
20:47
you actually like dissect the song, there's so much going on and it's super
20:51
catchy. And he said, you know, supposed to fade out at that
20:53
kind of like guitar breakdown, and then like you know, they got rewounded
20:56
the wrong part of like, oh, just let's keep that in there.
21:00
It's such a powerful song. That's the song they opened with a lalapalooza.
21:03
So ice T has done as a rap set for about twenty minutes and he's
21:06
like, you know, watch this, and then they go into the song
21:07
body Count. It does it also has kind of Sabbath not you know,
21:11
starts with the rain. They've got the Black Sabbath song on the Black Sabbath
21:15
album by a Black Sabbath. You know. They've got the body Count song
21:18
on the BodyCount album by body Count. It's also debuted on Ice T's rap
21:22
album Oji Original Gangster the previous year. And I got a quote from Danko
21:26
Jones sing like I rewound that again and again, like can you imagine like
21:30
that exists, Like there's that band there in this deep cut track eighteen on
21:34
this hip hop record, Like there's nothing else like that in the world.
21:37
And it's such a powerful song and it's it's catchy and it's smart, and
21:41
I love that song. What were the crowds like at the concerts because you
21:45
had metal fans, rap fans, and this is in the early nineties.
21:48
This isn't like nowadays, it's more accepted. Yeah, a few people said
21:52
that. They said, like, you know, I'd never seen that much
21:55
diversity to a crowd except for at the body Count shows. And a few
21:59
other people will said things like, you know, like some of the guys
22:03
are currently by account like you know, yeah, he used to be the
22:06
only black guy at the metal show and like, now that's more diverse,
22:07
or like, you know, people say he used to be the hip hop
22:11
shows are not very diverse, and now they're a lot more diverse. And
22:12
I think they definitely broke down the barrier for a lot of people. I
22:17
mean, I had one of their engineer said, I had not seen that
22:19
kind of mix of a show since the nineteen sixties, you know, reggae
22:22
shows in England. I mean, it's just it was just a real barrier
22:26
breaking show for the audience. One track that I'm surprised wasn't a hit,
22:30
but then reading the book, I can see why the winner loses and that's
22:33
a departure from anything that ice T did before that. I would think melodic,
22:37
it's got a hook, it's got harmonies, it's probably acoustic, and
22:40
I mean it's a power ballad. I mean it's right. I mean,
22:42
it had a video to go with it. Lyric is anti drugs, so
22:47
I would think it would have been a pretty significant signal. But you say
22:49
it was overshadowed by the controversy that the rest of the album had, specifically
22:53
cop killer, so that kind of killed the momentum. Yeah, you know,
22:59
that's song sounds like a hit to me, for sure. There are
23:03
other songs like I. You know, they feel like a very uncompromising band
23:06
of me. I can see why. It's not like it doesn't have a
23:08
sort of like black album or User Illusion success, but it's commercial success that
23:12
is. But yeah, The Winner Losers does sound like a parabelled hit.
23:15
And I think that even when when the cop coat controversy starts, some of
23:19
the people in Warner Brothers try to defend the band by being like, no,
23:22
they've got The Winner Losers, They've got positive messages on the record,
23:26
and I think that people weren't ready. You know, they're taking lyrics out
23:30
of context, they're taking songs out of context, and people weren't ready to
23:33
accept them as a band that has that kind of messages in those songs.
23:37
That's an old song too, that was written by Ernie before Ice was the
23:41
frontman of the band too, So that one goes back long time. And
23:44
Ernie told me that the guy he wrote about is actually still alive and got
23:48
cleaned. He was concerned about friend of his who dies in the song,
23:52
and then he said, but you know what, he things worked out there,
23:55
so he so that's good, but you know, they get sort of
23:59
pigeonholed as bad guys and tough guys, and that's definitely something that you know,
24:03
rock stars market themselves, says, But there are a lot of positive
24:04
messages on that album. That's one of them. The book Done Rock Podcasts.
24:08
We'll be back after this. I take the wayfarers off and hand them
24:14
to him. Maybe I really did kill a Sali, though I'm positive that
24:18
any cab drivers I've killed lately were not American. I probably did. There
24:22
probably is a wanted poster of me. At where the taxi the place where
24:27
all the taxis congregate, what's it called. The driver tries the sunglasses on,
24:33
looks at himself in the rear of view mirror, and then takes them
24:34
off. He folds the glasses and puts them in his jacket pocket. You're
24:40
a dead man, I smiled grimly at him. And you're a yuppie scumbag,
24:44
he says, You're a dead man, Abdullah, I repeat, no
24:48
joke, count on it. Yeah, and you're a yuppie scumbag, which
24:52
is worse. He starts the cab up and pulls away from me. While
24:56
walking back to the highway. I stop, choke back a sob my throat
25:00
Titans. I just want to facing the skyline through all the baby talk,
25:04
I murmur, keep the game going. As I stand frozen in position.
25:11
An old woman emerges behind a threepenny opera poster at a deserted bus stop,
25:15
and she's homeless and begging, hobbling over, her face covered with sores that
25:18
look like bugs, holding out a shaking red hand. Oh will you please
25:23
go away? I sigh. She tells me to get a haircut. Oh
25:29
hi, there, you caught me reading a hateful story. How bigoted of
25:32
you? Actually? That was a section from American Psycho by brettyston ellis a
25:37
book that has been very controversial since before its publication, being rejected by publishers
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all over the world and demonized by many who have never even read it and
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All proceeds will be donated to the anti censorship organization, The Foundation for
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26:26
Salman Rushdie And if we've offended you with this commercial, then just turn it
26:32
off for fuck's sake. The single there Goes the Neighborhood, the lyrics,
26:36
don't they know? Rocks just for whites? Don't they know the rules?
26:40
The three finger tapping segment inspired by Eddie van Halen. And you write about
26:45
a song like this in KKK Bitch and how it took things even further than
26:48
rap rock crossovers before, like Walk This Way with Aerosmith and Run DMC or
26:52
Bring the Noise with Anthrax and Public Enemy. Expand on that little bit,
26:56
and how do you think a song like there Goes the name Hood is viewed
27:00
today thirty years later. First of all, the you know those songs were
27:03
not collaborations, right, they were not. It was in public I'd checking
27:07
up with Anthrax or you know that was natural band, and they're also not
27:11
rap rock. Those are rock songs sung by a guy whose usual careers rap
27:17
and you'd get stereotyped as rap because of who Ice Tea is and because of
27:19
the subject matter of the songs. But they're like hard rock songs, are
27:23
punk songs, are metal songs. And one thing that Ice Tea points out,
27:27
and this is he's not the first person to make this, but he,
27:30
you know, is expressive about is that black rock artists are often categorized
27:36
as R and B or funk or rap rock or something like that and not
27:41
give them credit for their rock shops. You know, Prince has a lot
27:45
of rock chops. You know, Parliament, Funkadelic, you know, Slide,
27:48
the Family, Stone and Bycount are a serious like you know, straight
27:52
ahead rock punk and metal band. I mean the word he uses the most
27:56
as hardcore. You know, he says, you know, sometimes punk,
27:57
sometimes metal, it's always hard core. And they're definitely that on on songs
28:03
like KKK Bitch and there Goes the Neighborhood. There Goes the Neighborhood is a
28:07
fascinating song because it's a thing that gets discussed a lot more now you know,
28:11
people talk about the great Replacement theory and how it plays in the modern
28:15
politics, and I looked it up. That didn't even have a name until
28:19
about twenty years after There Goes the Neighborhood and that kind of fear of you
28:23
know, the other moving in, right, and whether it's moving into rock
28:29
music, whether it's moving into the neighborhood, and you know what, you
28:32
know, I see said about you know, there's this kind of fear like,
28:33
you know, where these guys come from. What are they doing our
28:36
neighborhood that's not for them, that's for us. And what they're they coming
28:37
in to our music that's not for them, that's for us. And yeah,
28:41
I remember my dad talking to me years I'm not gonna pretend to be
28:45
especially smart about this, but my dad talked to me a while ago about,
28:49
you know, some article about the great Replacement theory, and I was
28:52
like, wait, what's that. That's that's There Goes the Neighborhood. They
28:55
started writing something about that for the book, and then you know, I
28:56
started to realize it was so I guess it was so well known at this
29:02
point they didn't feel the need to explain it, right. I wasn't like,
29:07
I'm not just saying this. See if people to read the book,
29:07
but body Count fans are smart, thirty thing or third fans. You know,
29:11
the readers are smart, and you know, I don't think they need
29:12
me to be like you know, oh, you know, this is a
29:15
great replacement theory. But you know, you see that sort of fear of
29:19
other races coming to the neighborhood, and you know the things that people say
29:22
on sites like that. There are definitely a few examples I didn't put into
29:26
the book because I didn't want to give him much ground, but they're definitely
29:29
examples of people talking about race in the United States and music where I'm just
29:33
like, that's there goes the neighborhood. That's that. Yeah. Well,
29:36
Ernie c was mentioning that in high school he was kind of an outcast because
29:40
a lot of the you know, a lot of the kids in his school
29:41
were listening to I can't remember what they were listening to at that time,
29:45
would have been more like Funk or R and B or whatever, but he
29:48
was he was listening to Zeppelin and Sabbath and yeah, he got some tapes
29:53
from a friend and he has so many stories and it killed me to not,
29:56
you know, they had to kind of make it a out by account,
30:00
not like you know, he sat in with people from the Coasters and
30:03
War and Donnie Hathaway and people like that at a little venue. He's playing
30:07
out, growing up, and he honed his guitar tops that way, and
30:11
he I think he's gone a long way into fitting in. I read a
30:17
little in the book about how there's the discussion about how all black rock bands
30:22
are marginalized and how it's like a different thing and stuff like that. But
30:25
in like the discussions about the great black rock bands and books about them and
30:29
it shows about them, BodyCount is often left out right. The focus will
30:30
tend to be on living color and fishbone and bad Brains are great, but
30:34
by account is often left out of the conversation. And I think that they
30:40
still kind of feel in some ways like the marginalized among the marginalized, like
30:42
the left out of amonga left out. Yeah, I think this book will
30:45
help to bring more attention to him. Tell me about the what are these
30:48
Eddie stories? At Ernie till did you remember? He had some good story?
30:52
I mean, he saw him when he was young. He kept saying
30:55
like, you know, I could I couldn't tell who he's doing, but
30:56
I saw him play and stuff. He got a voicemail message from Eddie van
31:00
Halen once. He said, you know, I let that on my outgoing
31:03
mailbox for months, so people gonna. I talked to Eddie van Halen on
31:07
the phone and he's a sweet guy. I know. He told me about
31:11
loving the first two records as to his biggest influences. But he also he
31:15
had a story in it. This was left out of the book unfortunately,
31:18
but he said that he's trying to get on Ernie ball guitar. Them to
31:22
give him a guitar, and he's having trouble getting that. And he talked
31:25
to Eddie van Halen about that and he said, they won't give me like
31:26
a guitar. And he said, than gave John Mackerro one of those guitars.
31:30
They're gonna give you one, you know, they give it to John
31:32
mcnoll, will give it to you. So he made some calls and he
31:34
got Eddie van Halen got Ernie the guitar, and uh, you know,
31:37
so Ernie, Uh what a story? Now? Well, Ernie, I'm
31:42
I'm thinking now, with his age, he probably saw Van Halen like in
31:48
their early early days, maybe even the club days, right was he Yeah,
31:52
I forget the name of the club, but because he was where was
31:53
he from again, he's from the Oakland area or San Franz. He was
31:56
from from like the like Neil Oakland, you're like Tom and h. Yeah,
32:00
so he was. He wasn't far from where Eddie and you know the
32:04
guys were playing there on the Sunset Strip. He very well, I've seen
32:07
him one of those like the Whiskey a Go Go. Yeah, yeah,
32:09
yeah, yeah, so he was seen him in the early days and yeah,
32:14
he has stories about one of the magazine articles, but Ray called him
32:17
the Kevin Bacon of metal because he just has connections with everybody. And he's
32:22
got stories about sound Garden and about Rob Zombie and about sly Stone and about
32:25
Jane's addiction and he yeah, he's just a sweet guy who kind of connects
32:30
with all these people and there's all these stories. Hey, let's segue.
32:34
This is a good segue. Whiskey a Go Go. There was a story
32:36
that Ernie and Ice tell to Martha Quinn because he appeared on MTV and they
32:42
were there too. I guess premiere or just talk about the video. There
32:45
goes the Neighborhood and they described the video as quote one that you would want
32:50
a band, but couldn't band worked that edge. Ice turned a story about
32:54
a canceled body Com performance at the Whiskey A Go Go into some of the
32:58
most enthralling punk notoriety since Bad Brains were banned in DC. That's from your
33:02
book. Well was the story? What was this story? They were banned
33:06
from the Whiskey A Go Go. Yeah. Well, the way that Ice
33:08
frames it is that his crowd was going to show up to the body Count
33:15
shows and they didn't want, you know, they were worried about police protection.
33:20
There's still last stigma about hip hop shows, last thing about Ice T,
33:22
last stigma about the place overcrowding with Ice T fans. I talked to
33:29
one of the bookers of early ic T shows, hot Rod Long, really
33:31
cool dude, and he told me that they set a police bond for the
33:37
Whiskey show. They're like, okay, like you need to pay all somebody
33:38
for police protection. And he came back to Ice, like Ice the police
33:43
protection and said, yeah, I'll pay that. You know, that's gonna
33:45
be the best. You know, those cops are gonna watch me singing cop
33:47
Killer and they're gonna have to like it because I paid the production and hot
33:52
Rod came back to the manage with the money and the manager said no,
33:53
no, no, they they're not supposed to have the money like out like
33:57
and basically, you know, would not let them play anywhere on the strip,
34:00
which Ice Tea then, you know, Ice Tea is a brilliant business
34:05
and marketing guy, and he basically trimted to you know, we got banned,
34:08
which is cool, yes, yes, oh yeah. That that goes
34:13
back to the early days of you know, Chuck Bear, the Beatles or
34:16
whatever. You know, it's like that your parents don't want you to go
34:19
go see that band. And of course when you tell the kids not to
34:23
do something, they're going to do it exactly right. You know, he's
34:28
he's any plays with I says, you know that that printle advisory that's gonna
34:30
sell my records, right? Oh yeah. He loves to play with that
34:32
idea of you know, kind of like kids getting the thing that their parents
34:37
don't like. I think that they're scared of. Right. So you talked
34:40
about you did have to make sure that the book was a certain length.
34:44
But I'm so glad that you were able to put in this section where I
34:49
think Ernie and Ice talk about every track on the album, and they got
34:52
these great So so if you're into the minutia the stories behind the songs,
34:55
yeah, this chapter is great. It's it's it's got all the song Let's
35:00
kind of go through. Let's see what should we pick, Like body count.
35:04
Ernie says, quote the song wasn't originally written like that. We did
35:07
all the parts and at the end it went to that Hendricks slow vamp and
35:12
then he hums it, I'm playing that raised ninth chord that's kind of in
35:15
the middle of it. That was going to be at the end, but
35:17
the engineer rewound it too fast and so he skipped over and put the parts
35:21
in the wrong part. So after we listen to it, we're like,
35:24
that sounds pretty good. And then I says, I think that song encapsulates
35:30
what the group is about still today. It's about black voices yelling at the
35:34
top of their lungs about topics and don't give me no bullshit, right yeah,
35:38
yeah, but every track is covered here. Man, great stories they
35:42
give you. Thank you. Yeah, I really wanted that to happen in
35:45
the book. And I remember, you know, I first did my my
35:47
first every iced tea. I said, you know, by the way,
35:50
it doesn't have to be now, but I did this talk with Ernie,
35:52
and I just want to know that, you know, I can at some
35:53
point do the kind of classic album thing where the guys talk about every song
35:59
on the record, and that's you know, there's a kind of stereotype that
36:00
the Body ac count record is more controversial and good, and you know,
36:04
I didn't want to give it because there's always that, you know, the
36:06
anniversary record where the people who made it line up and you know, talk
36:08
about every song, and I wanted to do something special like that for for
36:13
this book. So you know, I got some good stories. I was
36:15
kind of touched at how nonchalant they are about cop Killer at this point.
36:19
They're kind of like, well, you know, we thought the other songs
36:21
are gonna be more controversial. We thought they'd be worried but almost got to
36:22
Die Nite and stuff like that, and and you know, also stuff like
36:27
for Body Counts in the house, Ernie says that, and I didn't I
36:32
did not hear this, even though I love both these songs. He says,
36:35
well, that music was inspired by Godzilla. I blew us their calls
36:37
and oh yeah, that's that Rember that part. Yeah yeah, And he
36:42
says, so the way this song goes done done na, ours goes dunna
36:45
na And we wanted that same kind of feel like you know something, something
36:50
scary is coming right and it's it's already here, right And ice T said,
36:53
well, those lyrics are by accounts in the house, were inspired by
36:57
Suicial Tendency's Pledge Your Allegiance because I like the way that when you see them
37:00
the crowd do that you know st you know, st suicidal and it's like,
37:05
I want a song where they chant our name like that and you kind
37:07
of see that seamless blendi of you know, punk and metal and hard rock,
37:10
and how you know they kind of fit those things now stow together with
37:15
that sort of suicidal tendencies, with that sort of bloister called thing and how
37:17
they love that that song right, yeah, I love that stuff. Man.
37:22
Cop Killer I says we wrote the song. Little did I know this
37:24
guy would be some type of hero because people were so angry at police and
37:29
justice. We actually thought Mama's got to Die Tonight would be the most controversial,
37:34
so he would be the most controversial song. Yeah, I can see
37:37
why they would think that would be more controversial. I guess the LA violence
37:43
had not happened yet, so there was not as much media on police brutality
37:46
and there wasn't you know, it wasn't an election issue yet. But yeah,
37:51
I kind of like how they were just kind of like it was just
37:52
a song that we wrote at the time, you know, and not part
37:55
early in the book. And he's told us straight with other people too,
37:58
but I says, you know, it's just kind of by a psycho killer
38:00
by talking heads, and it was like, you know, psyched killer,
38:02
and you know, my drummer said, you know, I mean I just
38:05
have a cop killer song. What what's why is that? And like they
38:07
started talking about that, and it's you know, it wasn't like they were
38:10
trying to get banned. It wasn't like they were trying to get the bomb
38:15
threats and the death threats. It was just kind of it was part of
38:17
their repertoire. And you know, Mama's got a Died Tonite. I loved
38:22
hearing there are so many you know, for KKK bitch, so like some
38:24
of those lyrics came from Blue Velvet and you know, for Mom's Got Died
38:27
Tonite. Shohnny Sean, who's the hype man who also knew them in high
38:30
school, said, we uh were watching serial killer movies, like you know,
38:35
Henry Porter of a serial Killer and just like we want kind of storytelling
38:38
thing like that and iced tea saying, you know, I like the way
38:40
when Henry Rollins would get intense they start talking through the song and the Rolins
38:44
band, I'm like, okay, picking up something with that, and yeah,
38:46
they just had this myriad of influences that kind of come together in the
38:50
song like that. Man, that's like a VH one behind the music chapter
38:53
right there, that's gold. That's gold. Now. Now, when I
38:57
was listening to the to the album on spot fine, and then I'm reading
39:00
the book and then there's a part in your book where you mentioned that it
39:02
wasn't available at some point recently it became available. Is that, well,
39:08
the album is available. The original album with cop Killer is still banned.
39:14
You cannot get that. You can't stream that on Spotify, It's not on
39:16
album music or anything like that. You can find a legal upload that hasn't
39:21
been taken down on YouTube. But one interesting thing about body Counts success these
39:28
days is that they're one of the only bands where the internet kind of level
39:30
the playing field for them, right, because you know, when I was
39:34
a kid getting that body count record that did not have a cop Killer on
39:37
it, I kind of figured I'd never hear it, right. It kind
39:39
of got squashed out of existence by the controversy, and they were not They
39:45
pulled that record from the stores. They weren't making anymore, and that was
39:49
it, right, There wasn't you know, there wasn't illegal downloading, yet,
39:52
there wasn't a good way to hear it. And now it's more available,
39:54
it's available on YouTube and things like that. But yeah, they he
40:00
replaced the record with another one which had this song freemas Speech with Jeli Biafra.
40:05
It was a song that he'd done on one of his records of the
40:07
Iceberg with Jello, and then they made a new version for this record with
40:10
a Jimmy Hendrix sample of Foxy Lady underneath it, and that kind of took
40:15
the place of cop Killer. But yeah, you still can't stream the original
40:20
copy of song, Okay, So yeah, because I did put there's a
40:22
link in the show notes page, so if people want to listen to the
40:24
album at least that's you know, it's the one that I saw on Spotify,
40:29
which I think is like a it's like a deluxe edition or something.
40:31
Yeah, it's the it's the addition that does not have so it doesn't have
40:35
cop Killer, it's got freem of Speech. They also, against the artist's
40:39
consent, they changed the album cover. The cover's got sort of like black
40:45
Sabbath. The woman on the Black Sabbath cover. They got this lone figure
40:46
with this kind of like blackish purplesh hue to it, and the original drawing.
40:52
He's got cop plow tattooed on his chest and they used a computer to
40:55
change that too. Body Count, So that's on the street version, that's
41:00
on the version that you can buy in stores. But yeah, the original
41:05
version with the original cover, right, and Copkiller are no longer built.
41:07
Yeah cop Killer not the hair wow. Right. Yeah, So body Count
41:12
shipped around three hundred thousand copies, charted lower and sold slower than OG original.
41:16
Gangster by the way, didn't is Ice Tee the guy we can credit
41:21
for OG. He's he's the guy who originally Yeah, I said that to
41:23
one of my co workers. Know they go and listen man og You know
41:27
where that came from? Ice Tea. I knew that from reading your books.
41:30
Yeah, I don't know. I think you mentioned it in your book.
41:32
He's the original. It definitely popularized that term in American verracular, which
41:37
is amazing. That's cool. But yeah, many rap fans and metal heads,
41:40
even on the cutting edge of extreme music, didn't know what to make
41:45
of Body Count at the time. But here we are, over thirty years
41:49
later. How is this album viewed by critics and by music fans. I
41:52
think it's gotten more acclaimed. You know, they're they're playing their biggest shows
41:55
to date. Now, there was a period when they looked like they were
41:58
kind of over. You know, they lost three members of the band.
42:00
Beat Mester be had leukemia, Mooseman was killed in a drive by shooting,
42:04
and do you I think execution out of Lymphoma. He's the guy who's on
42:07
rhythm guitar, Yes, yeah, rhythm guitar. There was a while where
42:12
they were kind of going through lineup changes and sporadically music every you know,
42:15
ten years or so, and they seem kind of finished, but then they
42:20
formed and they had Talk Shit Gets Shot, which was probably their biggest commercial
42:24
hit yet, and then they are a kind of a big festival circuit band.
42:28
They want a Grammy on their last record, which is just like astonishing
42:30
for a band that was considered such outlast for such a long time. And
42:36
recently Rolling Stone did the one hundreds Novel records and body Count was on it,
42:38
and I think that in hindsight, people see how how different that record
42:45
was and how much it changed things, and how people have sort of imitated
42:50
that sound. And now there's like, you know, on the new record,
42:52
they did this song with Power Trip, this kind of powerful new band
42:54
that sounds like it could be body Count or a Power Trip song, and
42:58
they've got you know, there are whole new bands that sound like like that
43:01
style. But but you know, still I seen the book says that first
43:05
record is gonna be always gonna be the classic, like there's always you know,
43:07
every everybody wants that one album that will be the one you're remembered for,
43:12
and where we do that that work goes into the classic canda. I
43:14
think that that's true even though a lot of people, specially musicians, were
43:19
like, you know, the body counts back and they're better than ever now,
43:21
and and I hear that. I can intellectually hear like how the new
43:24
records are awesome, and like I see that argument that they're the best records
43:29
and that they've got this kill a new band and this you know, sort
43:31
of modernized metal sound to it. But yeah, that first record is so
43:37
original and broke so much ground and and and admittedly you know that was also
43:40
the when I heard when I was fifteen, so I have that emotional connection
43:44
to it from oh yeah, yeah, yeah. The studies always say any
43:46
teams between thirteen and nineteen, you know, you're teen years nineteen, twenty
43:50
years old, you connect with it more so than any other time in your
43:53
life totally. And I and I hear the greatness of the new records,
43:58
and I can see those arguments. But you know, yeah, I think
44:00
a lot about There's that Chuck Lassman quote in Fargo Rock City about how much
44:02
he loves Radiohead, and then one points but you know what, I'm never
44:07
gonna love Radiohead as much as Motley Crue because on our B fifteen again,
44:10
and he's like, I can intellectually tell you why I love my head,
44:13
but you know, they're non extension of my life the way that's Motley Crue
44:16
is. And I think that part of why body Count is such a huge
44:21
critical part of my life as that I did hear in those terrible years and
44:24
uh yeah it was a that's that's a very real phenomenon. But sure sure.
44:30
But but going back to from a critical standpoint, I think of Paul's
44:35
boutique when when I when I think of body Count's first album, ahead of
44:37
its time, trendsetter to me, like Pas two Boys. I know everybody
44:40
loves that first album. I know so many people who do. But to
44:44
me, Paul's boutique is like their first album, that's when the real beasts,
44:47
you know, that's you see them experimenting and doing the things they wanted
44:52
to do more so than ever. And uh yeah, it's that's body Count
44:55
similar. Definitely, Yeah, they're both. You know, Paul's Britique and
44:59
Biycount are both so different and so unlike Hating It came before that, and
45:04
it took some time for the world to catch up for that. You know,
45:07
so many people I interviewed about body Count were like, who else is
45:09
doing this? Like you know, this is really nobody else sounds like that,
45:13
nobody else writes like that, nobody else's you know, there's there's a
45:15
sub genre rap called horror core, which is like the sort of usual rap
45:20
themes with sort of horror movies saying to them with horror scenarios, and body
45:24
Count of started pineering that in rock music, right, and they've got that
45:28
sort of you know, there are before body Count. There are there are
45:31
metal bands that punks like, right, like Slayer. There are punk bands
45:36
that metal heads like, like Discharge, but you would never say like,
45:37
oh yeah, mel Slayer is a punk band, right, They've got some
45:39
punk influences, but not. But you know, that body Count record you
45:44
could call a punk record or melt record. You know, it's so that
45:46
blend is so seamless, and you have talked to jellyby Offer and he's like,
45:50
you know, people called it metal, but I thought it was more
45:52
of a punk record, and you know, just other people like, yeah,
45:53
I felt like strat mel. To me, it's this kind of genre
45:58
defying thing that was so unique, get ahead of its time. And it's
46:00
quite to mention Paul's boutique too, because I guess that's Body Count's first record,
46:04
but he had Iced Tea, who's already successful, and there was that
46:07
kind of established I se sound and established like BC boys license Ill Sounds.
46:12
And then this new thing that's completely different comes out and people are like huh,
46:16
like a what's it? You know what that right? And it's just
46:19
uh And that's ballsy too for BCS and for Iced Tea. You know,
46:22
it's it takes some guts, but that takes some time and they end up
46:25
appreciating it. For sure. We have to talk about how Iced Tea.
46:30
He goes on to do a lot of acting, a lot of roles.
46:32
Then he really lands the role that's made him one of the most recognizable faces
46:37
around, and that's his roles in Law and Order Special Victims Unit. He's
46:43
now the longest running black actor in TV history. Quoting to your book,
46:47
Ernie c Is quoted in the book saying, quote, your grandmothers know him.
46:51
People see videos in the comments are like, isn't that the guy from
46:54
Law and Order? Yeah? So how is playing a policeman effected influence his
47:00
music? In your opinion, Here's a guy who wrote a song called cop
47:02
Killer, and you know, I wonder if there is some sort of trolling
47:08
element to it, like like when he was a policeman on the cover of
47:10
Rolling Stone, if there is some sort of like, you know, trolling
47:15
element thing to it. But you know, he uh, you know,
47:16
early on in his career, he when he's popular Warner Brothers, he gets
47:21
some making roles. He plays a policeman New Jack City, and he has
47:24
to say like, like, look, people know that I'm not a policeman.
47:27
Doesn't like the police. You know, I'm still iced tea. And
47:30
he says, kind of presciently, says, you know, I'm playing the
47:32
policeman. I wish more policeman were like, right, this is what I
47:36
like to be. But he also says, look, if I played a
47:38
rapper or a gangster, people wouldn't know I could act. When they see
47:42
me as a policeman, they're gonna give me some more parts because that's because
47:45
I'm thinking for the long run. And then he's and now you see later
47:49
this is what he's most famous for us for playing a policeman, you know,
47:52
he and there's also it also has kind of a connection to his music
47:58
and that he described by saying as hardcore and you know, There's got an
48:02
interview with Henry Rome where he says, Tommy, hardcore is doing what you
48:06
want to do, right, And like, if I want to be a
48:07
kangaroo and tank girl, that's hardcore, right. If I want to you
48:10
know, do my my music, that's hardcore. My body count's hardcore.
48:15
And you know, I got some advice he had for young people who like
48:17
melod He's like, you know, fuck whether people think of you and not,
48:21
like, you know, that's you know, do the thing that you
48:22
and and uh, I think his authenticity both as an actor and a musician
48:30
sort of makes that he's sort of like djaf attitude they as to playing a
48:35
cop that he brings to bike on his part what makes him, you know,
48:37
the national treasure he's become now and now he's like he's doing ads for
48:40
Cheerios and for car insurance and he's Max fum Seppalta said like, you know,
48:45
yeah, he's he's an American treasurer. And yeah, that kind of
48:47
cross of appeals as part of that. But we should know too that yeah,
48:52
there's the irony there that he ends up playing a policeman and there's a
48:54
song kind of killer but you know, I was watching his appearance on Our
48:59
sinew at that time in ninety two, just to clarify that he wasn't he
49:02
was talking about the cops that are just bad people, you know, I
49:06
mean there were certain cops because he would say, he goes, I've got
49:08
friends who are police officers and they're they're awesome, they're great, and they
49:12
do a great job, and there's plenty of them, but there are some
49:15
cops that are not. He was trying to make that point in our CINEO.
49:19
Oh yeah, yeah he was. And you know, he constantly said,
49:22
you know, for the good police, I've got nothing but respect for
49:25
them. You know, I want to be a copy. You know.
49:28
He doesn't say I'm not playing a cop because all cops are bad, right,
49:30
He says, I want to play the cop that I wish more cops
49:31
are alike. And another thing actually that did not go I had to take
49:37
out the book unfortunately, was I spoke with Ronda Lord, who's the police
49:43
boss who really led the fight to take down Cop Killer, who led the
49:47
fight to get that song taken off the record, and I asked him about
49:52
iced team now as a as a policeman on TV. That's iron. But
49:54
he also said, you know what I don't, And this is the guy
49:58
who really led the fight. You know that Time Warner shareholders meeting, you
50:01
know, the boycotts, the protests. There's a guy who can't spearheaded this.
50:06
And he said, you know, I don't think that what Iced he
50:08
did with cop Killer was worth canceling him over. And he said, look,
50:12
he's not a pedophile. He's not a murderer or anything like that.
50:15
And I think that you can watch Iced Tea on Long Order and respect that
50:21
he's a good actor and not be bothered by copt which he's still like a
50:23
met Yeah, that's on you to go. He's not changed his mind about
50:25
that, but you really get a glimpse of at how Iced he could be
50:30
the Iced Tea bike on cop Killer fame and also still be this huge cross
50:36
of our stars, a policeman on Long Rudder. So to finish out,
50:39
for those who've never heard this album or haven't listened to it in a while,
50:44
why should they give it a listen today? It's a historically important album.
50:49
It's a musically important album. It's an innovative album. You know that
50:52
blend of styles, the chemistry, the story behind it, you know,
50:57
I mean, I just like going through what these guys went through together in
51:00
high school and just like you know, as a band and working so hard
51:02
and hustling on the bus and people saying like, you know, beat Master
51:07
V is not a good enough dumber for you, and him kind of like
51:08
stepping up his game to do that, and it just so much went into
51:13
it. It's still a very provocative record. You know, Time has not
51:15
really done anything to weaken it doesn't sound you know, some of that stuff
51:19
is like, you know, okay, other people came aong, did this
51:20
better? You can't really say about body Count. It's still a very uh
51:24
fiery, you know, subversive record. It's very funny, it's very scary.
51:30
It doesn't take itself too seriously. It's yere's Yeah, there's a lot
51:35
of humor. You know. I C has constantly said that's one of the
51:37
most important things, is the humor. It's funny, it's still shocking,
51:39
it's it's catchy. The musicianship is great. At one point of the book,
51:44
I say, it's it's it's like a it's like a brick through America
51:45
suburbs. It's like a voice from some people who felt voiceless, and you
51:50
know, Ernie says, you know, that song is for people who had
51:52
been through something to shout for these voices, people shout you know, yes
51:55
cop killer, Yes there he was, the neighborhood. It's it's such a
52:00
great kind of breakthrough of those messages, of those themes, and of that
52:05
humor and of that sort of tension, the scariness, of the sort of
52:07
horacenaries on the record and uh and the musicianship. It's such a great you
52:13
know, yes you made it, you crossed over to the world. And
52:15
this, this record, you know, has spoken to so many people,
52:19
and I think it's such a it's such a powerful statement overall of an album.
52:22
I think you said it best will finish for this. It's like you
52:25
say of the song when Body Counts in the house, it's both a party
52:30
and a home invasion, depending on the listener. So if they can decide
52:34
what it is, they think it is. Yeah. So the book is
52:37
out now, Body Counts, Body count part of the thirty three and a
52:39
third series out through Bloomsbury Academic and you can find it wherever books are sold
52:44
and where can people find you online? And my Twitter is Bapatov, Bapa
52:49
t o f X. It's now that's rights On that Instagram, I'm still
52:55
Metallica book, which is where I started as. Maybe I'll change that someday,
52:59
but I still post my body count stuff and yeah, by all means
53:05
connect, I do, I deal about stuff. Yeah, I'll put the
53:07
links to those social media sites on the show notes page. Ben, thanks
53:10
so much, man. This was great. Always a pleasure. I really
53:14
appreciate it. That's it's in the books.