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From Gym Buddies to Brewery Owners: The Battle River Brewing Story | Toms River, NJ · Ready To Drink Podcast

• 0:00
  SPEAKER_02: Uh Gary Morrison, co-founder of Battle River Brewing in Toms River, New Jersey.
• 0:04
  SPEAKER_00: Awesome.
• 0:05
  SPEAKER_00: So I've I've actually uh I've been buying you guys' place.
• 0:07
  SPEAKER_00: I'm originally from uh Philadelphia and stuff like that.
• 0:09
  SPEAKER_00: So I've been at the Jersey market with a couple different brands and been out there.
• 0:13
  SPEAKER_00: So would um give me a little rundown.
• 0:15
  SPEAKER_00: We don't focus too much on products, but I want to focus on your portfolio mix and brewing.
• 0:19
  SPEAKER_00: Kind of give me a mix of the environment and atmosphere of your place.
• 0:22
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, so um we are a seven-hectoliter uh brew house.
• 0:27
  SPEAKER_02: We have uh five uh seven-barrel uh fermenters and two 14-barrel fermenters.
• 0:33
  SPEAKER_02: Um we typically have about 25 beers on tap at any one time.
• 0:38
  SPEAKER_02: So we like to give variety.
• 0:39
  SPEAKER_02: So we think that we're the local uh hangout.
• 0:42
  SPEAKER_02: We want an environment where people can get together, have good drinks, have good conversation, and just have a good uh experience.
• 0:50
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, super, super uh casual and fun spot.
• 0:53
  SPEAKER_00: You have I've been there before.
• 0:54
  SPEAKER_00: And uh I wanna um what uh as far as thousand beer and stuff like that, do you guys lean any different way or do you guys go really wide in the portfolio?
• 1:01
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, we go really wide in the portfolio.
• 1:04
  SPEAKER_02: Um, you know, I think that comes from myself and my co-founder.
• 1:07
  SPEAKER_02: Uh we typically weren't the the brewers that got into the business, right?
• 1:11
  SPEAKER_02: So typically when a brewery opens, it's mostly home brewers, they take the next step, they open a brewery, um, and they have their defined style and and likes.
• 1:19
  SPEAKER_02: But we are more consumers and business people.
• 1:22
  SPEAKER_02: So we wanted to make sure that there was, you know, so to say, uh a seat for every ass, right?
• 1:28
  SPEAKER_02: So you come in here, you know, typically when people come into breweries for the first time, it's like I'm not typically a beer drinker.
• 1:34
  SPEAKER_02: Um and then, you know, you have the tasting and they find that their palate does gravitate towards a specific style.
• 1:41
  SPEAKER_02: So we want to make sure that um we're giving you know consumers a variety and we're giving them uh choice and we're giving them an experience to taste everything.
• 1:50
  SPEAKER_00: Are you um are you sold on the shelf as well in wholesale or are you just on Sunday?
• 1:54
  SPEAKER_02: No, we are on the shelf at wholesale as well as uh bars.
• 1:57
  SPEAKER_02: Uh, you know, Jersey Shore, you're from Philly.
• 1:59
  SPEAKER_02: Uh we have a pretty uh busy summer season here.
• 2:04
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 2:04
  SPEAKER_02: Uh so we do service uh a lot of the local bars, but um, and then we're in you know quite a few retail outlets as well.
• 2:12
  SPEAKER_00: How's that business doing for you in New Jersey?
• 2:15
  SPEAKER_00: I know every state's different, but I mean, is New Jersey still quite well as New Jersey's got the little steps and starts on pullbacks and stuff.
• 2:22
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, so um, you know, New Jersey's pretty restrictive on brewery licenses uh because of uh the full liquor license.
• 2:30
  SPEAKER_02: You know, New Jersey is just a fragmented market, right, when it comes to liquor loss.
• 2:34
  SPEAKER_02: So uh, you know, we we started with an uphill battle.
• 2:36
  SPEAKER_02: Uh there was some relief during COVID.
• 2:39
  SPEAKER_02: There were some things that were, you know, uh positive for the industry, uh, but they reverted back.
• 2:45
  SPEAKER_02: Uh and then they had some final legislation over the last few years to ease some of the uh restrictions on entertainment and events uh in brewery.
• 2:54
  SPEAKER_02: So uh, you know, a couple steps forward, step back, a couple steps forward, you know, step back.
• 2:59
  SPEAKER_02: But, you know, my partner and I, we know that we have to operate in whatever whatever uh legal environment uh that's thrown at us.
• 3:08
  SPEAKER_02: Uh so it's always about being agile and pivoting and making sure uh that you stay, you know, ahead of the game there.
• 3:14
  SPEAKER_00: Absolutely.
• 3:15
  SPEAKER_00: So you guys uh is it still the you can't have bands, or is it nowadays at least you can use still hours and then the food part too, or is that some one?
• 3:24
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, so um some of the restrictions that are still in place are the lack of uh food, so we can't serve food, have operate a kitchen, uh, which is perfectly fine by me.
• 3:34
  SPEAKER_02: We knew that uh going into it.
• 3:36
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, that was in place when we when we started, uh, and we strategically picked a location that we thought you know could mitigate some of those you know risks.
• 3:44
  SPEAKER_02: Uh where they did help a little bit is uh the number of events.
• 3:48
  SPEAKER_02: And when you say bands, that's part of events.
• 3:51
  SPEAKER_02: Uh, but that's also inclusive of a trivia night, an open mic night, anything else that you would uh have uh entertainment-wise in in the brewery.
• 4:01
  SPEAKER_02: So uh they did ease some of those uh event restrictions and they upped up to a number now that makes sense for a business to operate.
• 4:09
  SPEAKER_00: What um, and this is not to like speak ill of the laws and legislators or anything like that, but what is the logic and intent behind separating those two?
• 4:16
  SPEAKER_00: Like I understand like we have stuff weird in Pennsylvania where you know you can't have THC and alcohol in the same place yet.
• 4:21
  SPEAKER_00: We're just we're passing, we're fighting for that law right now this year.
• 4:23
  SPEAKER_00: Like, what is some of their intention of uh of I guess it's a safety or what would be what's the reasoning?
• 4:28
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 4:29
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, the main reasons money and lobbying, right?
• 4:32
  SPEAKER_02: So um in New Jersey, uh liquor full liquor licenses tend to get very expensive.
• 4:39
  SPEAKER_02: So here in our town of Tom's River, uh the most recent liquor license sold for$800,000.
• 4:46
  SPEAKER_02: So the argument from liquor license holders is that a brewery license is much more inexpensive than their license.
• 4:57
  SPEAKER_02: Um so they want to protect it the best they can.
• 4:59
  SPEAKER_02: They've been an appreciating asset since I've been in the industry and I've go back, you know, not just brewery but bar restaurant industry for the last 25 years, right?
• 5:08
  SPEAKER_02: So um they're trying to protect their assets, so their lobby uh does a pretty good job at spending money, and obviously the brewer lobby is a lot smaller with look with less resources.
• 5:17
  SPEAKER_00: So it's the the on-premise liquor license lobby that that is protecting and all that stuff like that.
• 5:23
  SPEAKER_00: Correct.
• 5:24
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, you know, I can make all the arguments here.
• 5:26
  SPEAKER_02: No, no, we just do it, yeah, you know, yeah, but that but that's the reason.
• 5:32
  SPEAKER_00: No, I I appreciate it.
• 5:33
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, it's uh I've had many conversations on here with people about different policies and things like that.
• 5:38
  SPEAKER_00: One of those things were like, let's do we'll stay in logic so neither of us get sued by it.
• 5:42
  SPEAKER_00: Exactly.
• 5:44
  SPEAKER_00: So what um tell me a little bit about your guys' story.
• 5:47
  SPEAKER_00: You said you have some partners.
• 5:48
  SPEAKER_00: How many, how many, uh, how many of you guys?
• 5:51
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, so we have uh three main partners here.
• 5:53
  SPEAKER_02: Um we knew each other, you know, prior.
• 5:57
  SPEAKER_02: Uh we were you know business partners in other small cafes, uh, a gym, and we went out and watched football pretty much you know, weekly.
• 6:08
  SPEAKER_02: And then we were at a local uh restaurant and we found this beer that we really liked.
• 6:13
  SPEAKER_02: It tapped.
• 6:14
  SPEAKER_02: Uh my partner uh asked for another one, and they were like, Oh, that's it.
• 6:19
  SPEAKER_02: And he's like, Well, when are you getting it back?
• 6:20
  SPEAKER_02: And uh they're like, Well, that's a one-off.
• 6:23
  SPEAKER_02: That that brewery's never making it again.
• 6:25
  SPEAKER_02: And so, like, he texted me later that night, like late, and was like, Man, I know we wanted to do something else, you know, downtown Times River.
• 6:32
  SPEAKER_02: Uh, we wanted to help revitalize it.
• 6:35
  SPEAKER_02: Uh, we were thinking about some concepts, and he's like, Why don't we do a brewery when they're starting to revitalize a town?
• 6:40
  SPEAKER_02: Uh that seems like to be the central uh part of of the of the real estate and revitalization.
• 6:47
  SPEAKER_02: Uh and these guys, I don't know, maybe we don't know what we're doing, but these guys, you know, you make a beer, it's great.
• 6:54
  SPEAKER_02: Don't you want more people to drink it?
• 6:57
  SPEAKER_00: So that's how the concept was was pretty much born.
• 7:00
  SPEAKER_00: Now, did you guys did you guys are you any of you guys were home brewers at any point, or you guys have to find somebody to do a brewery?
• 7:06
  SPEAKER_00: No, we're just really business people.
• 7:08
  SPEAKER_00: So um we found a brewer.
• 7:10
  SPEAKER_00: Let's go through a little bit about how you guys met.
• 7:12
  SPEAKER_00: Like you guys were running cafes and stuff like that.
• 7:14
  SPEAKER_00: Were you just business people that were acquaintances in the professional world?
• 7:16
  SPEAKER_00: Or did you guys grow up together in Jersey?
• 7:18
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, did you guys knew each other prior like as kids or what?
• 7:21
  SPEAKER_02: No, so uh we met working out at a at a gym.
• 7:24
  SPEAKER_02: Okay.
• 7:24
  SPEAKER_02: And then we kind of hit it off, and then we continue to work out more and more, hang out more and more, and that's kind of how it flourished.
• 7:31
  SPEAKER_00: How um how about like uh getting a little deeper?
• 7:34
  SPEAKER_00: Like, uh, is your relationship?
• 7:35
  SPEAKER_00: Do you guys uh you guys still get time to hang out as friends, or is it is it all business then?
• 7:39
  SPEAKER_02: No, no, we still get some time.
• 7:41
  SPEAKER_02: We try to make Thursday night football kind of the time.
• 7:44
  SPEAKER_02: Uh, you know, so um, you know, still time for friendship.
• 7:47
  SPEAKER_00: How about uh what line uh let's uh let me go back to um I'm gonna love this because I had an ask this in but in New Jersey uh 18, 19 years old, what's Gary doing and did he ever imagine owning a brewery?
• 7:59
  SPEAKER_02: So yeah, no, uh didn't never imagine owning a brewery.
• 8:02
  SPEAKER_02: So 18, 19 years old, I was actually bartending on the Jersey Shore.
• 8:06
  SPEAKER_02: So, you know, nightclubs, uh which one were you at?
• 8:09
  SPEAKER_00: Because 1819 I was drinking at those shore points.
• 8:12
  SPEAKER_02: So I mean, if you if you can think about uh Bermuda Club, Club Cest, Temptations, all on the Jersey Shore, hanging out there.
• 8:24
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, exactly.
• 8:25
  SPEAKER_02: Um, but yeah, I mean, breweries back in you know, 1819 at 1819 you know, weren't really a thing here in New Jersey.
• 8:31
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, uh, I think Sierra Nevada was really the first, you know, one that really popped up on the radar on the East Coast.
• 8:38
  SPEAKER_02: And, you know, that was you know probably a pipe dream for for anyone, right?
• 8:43
  SPEAKER_00: Exactly.
• 8:43
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I um during that time uh when I was 19, I was working at a regular beverage over in Philadelphia.
• 8:49
  SPEAKER_00: And then I had um I had that relationship with Kramer.
• 8:52
  SPEAKER_00: So every once in a while I worked in New Jersey.
• 8:54
  SPEAKER_00: And then I went out and worked in New Jersey representing with uh what was that brand?
• 8:59
  SPEAKER_00: Uh Windred Sider.
• 9:02
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, so I think I um I'm looking at your back wall and stuff like that in your painting, your structure.
• 9:07
  SPEAKER_00: I think I actually went in there with a rep one time with Wendred Sider to sell the side on there or something like that.
• 9:13
  SPEAKER_02: Um we rehabbed the building and there was there was no nobody.
• 9:18
  SPEAKER_02: Okay, yeah.
• 9:19
  SPEAKER_02: So gotcha.
• 9:20
  SPEAKER_02: Okay.
• 9:20
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 9:21
  SPEAKER_00: Um when you go uh when you guys are looking out and stuff like that, like uh do you guys get to bring other brands in?
• 9:26
  SPEAKER_00: Like if there's anybody that's listening that's like, hey, I like this guy, I want to kind of work with him.
• 9:30
  SPEAKER_00: Do you guys have like Pennsylvania where you can bring other other brands in or no?
• 9:33
  SPEAKER_02: You guys just in New Jersey it's pure um it's purely on our own brand.
• 9:39
  SPEAKER_02: So anything that is served in a brew, the brew house, the the tap house, the tap room, uh in New Jersey has to be manufactured on site.
• 9:48
  SPEAKER_02: Okay.
• 9:48
  SPEAKER_02: So even if we outgrew our production and open the production facility right next door, that can only be for sales to you know retailers and um on and off premise.
• 10:01
  SPEAKER_02: Uh so uh that's it.
• 10:04
  SPEAKER_00: So you guys, even with all the THC step that has this thing stripped with liquor stores, it can't be touched on the bursts.
• 10:09
  SPEAKER_00: Like you guys can produce it, but you can't sell it or something, or what?
• 10:13
  SPEAKER_02: So we're trying to get some you know legislation.
• 10:15
  SPEAKER_02: I know obviously you're you're leading that charge there as well.
• 10:18
  SPEAKER_00: Well, this is a great platform to talk about what you guys need to support with.
• 10:21
  SPEAKER_00: So, yeah, what do you think?
• 10:22
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, what's the goal?
• 10:24
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, so we we have a co-packer in Pennsylvania, actually.
• 10:27
  SPEAKER_02: Um we have formulations made, uh, but you know, New Jersey, uh, as of April 16th, unless anything changes, I think it's nothing more than two milligrams package can per package can can be sold.
• 10:43
  SPEAKER_00: So like three months ago.
• 10:47
  SPEAKER_02: Well it just uh it was probably 30 days ago.
• 10:50
  SPEAKER_02: Uh so they gave everybody uh a little bit of lead time to unload whatever was on their shelf.
• 10:55
  SPEAKER_02: Uh so even liquor stores could not sell it without uh a CRC license.
• 11:00
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 11:01
  SPEAKER_01: Wow, yeah.
• 11:03
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 11:04
  SPEAKER_01: And what's how much of those CRC licenses cost?
• 11:07
  SPEAKER_02: I don't even know.
• 11:08
  SPEAKER_02: Um, you know, some of our big liquor store partners.
• 11:11
  SPEAKER_02: So if you know Tom Gerber in the Ocean County area, uh Spirits Unlimited, Buyrights, you know, some of those large uh liquor stores we have partnerships with, and they're looking to see what happens now.
• 11:22
  SPEAKER_02: Uh they seem to think that there's going to be some sort of stay until reasonable legislation comes in, but they're not ordering any THC products, uh, any new THC products now.
• 11:32
  SPEAKER_02: They're trying to unload, you know, what inventory they have.
• 11:36
  SPEAKER_00: Wow.
• 11:36
  SPEAKER_00: I'm just thinking about the planograms dense among liquor stores.
• 11:40
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, that is a significant dense of the planograms and the revenue.
• 11:43
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I mean, it's probably upwards of 30 to 35 percent of their revenue right now.
• 11:48
  SPEAKER_00: And yeah, that's exactly the number uh a couple months ago.
• 11:51
  SPEAKER_00: I wouldn't I uh I personally went down and interviewed a hundred different liquor store owners to get a market assessment uh report, and the average was was uh 28 to 35 percent of their revenue.
• 12:03
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and and growing probably quicker than any other category, right?
• 12:07
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, exactly.
• 12:07
  SPEAKER_00: I was just telling a story yesterday, though I was in a place and one guy actually one guy when it changed in the last time he was like, I'm done, I can't keep doing these changes and I can't do it, and he retired.
• 12:18
  SPEAKER_00: He literally sold the business.
• 12:19
  SPEAKER_00: I can't remember which place it was, it was real small, little bug.
• 12:22
  SPEAKER_00: And um the other one, I had a couple that kind of broke down crying with me, and like, and I don't mean that's facetious there.
• 12:29
  SPEAKER_00: I mean literally, they were just like, I don't know what this means, you know.
• 12:32
  SPEAKER_00: And I don't I don't understand, and and I will speak logically about this, you know, I don't understand sometimes, and I guess it's kind of weird to talk about politicians looking at data, but they use data so well for certain things.
• 12:43
  SPEAKER_00: And if you look at the data of New Jersey and other places where these these things feed each other's ecosystems properly, and it's not like that, the thing is if they were to go and say, Oh, we don't want it at all because it it's not safe for children, like that I understand, because that's overreach, but also that's an ideology, we don't argue with that, right?
• 13:00
  SPEAKER_00: This is different, like this like suppression down to like a minuscule dosage, and I'm not talking we need to have thousand milligram bottles on the shelf in a New Jersey bar that one time.
• 13:11
  SPEAKER_00: I still have a thin bottle that was a thousand milligrams behind the bar, and I was like, all right, behind the counter.
• 13:15
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but I guess what I'm trying to say is it's it's really um uncomfortable for our business community, and I know you I know I'm speaking to the choir with you, that they can't just look at that data and look at the overall economical impact and realize, okay, it's not about child safety, it's about actual impact, it's about permits, and it's about getting the permitting fee and the taxation through.
• 13:36
  SPEAKER_00: If you really wanted the taxation and you weren't looking at the short-term fix of that permit fee, you'd see that the better taxation opportunity is to let it through and put a little bit of a better cap on it so you can have some variety and some varying doses for different people.
• 13:48
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I mean, not only that, right?
• 13:50
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, this legislation, uh like you said, I mean, it's limiting in certain sectors.
• 13:55
  SPEAKER_02: So liquor stores can't sell it, but uh dispensaries can.
• 13:59
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 14:00
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 14:00
  SPEAKER_02: So I would think that liquor stores have the infrastructure and the whole liquor industry has the infrastructure to support uh, you know, the legislation to make it uh not only sensible, but make sure it's in compliance, right?
• 14:14
  SPEAKER_02: Who does a better job of of making sure people are over 21?
• 14:18
  SPEAKER_02: They have you know the uh wherewithal and the want to make sure that they comply because their license is at stake.
• 14:28
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, it's really it's one of those things that uh three things that I want to say about compliment the the uh recreational and technological checkpoints are all about where the comes, what does come from on its new is a whole different thing that I think lawmakers miss, but I think the dispensary, I am gonna speak about the dispensary market, mainly because I just did an article this morning about this, and I think I actually pissed off some people because I have some comments on the LinkedIn post that I gotta get back to later and de-justify some better de-missive people.
• 14:59
  SPEAKER_00: But my point is the transparency inside of the dispensary market is one that is for the product.
• 15:07
  SPEAKER_00: The difference that I think lawmakers need to understand is the transparency at the point of purchase, there's a different part of accountability at the point of purchase.
• 15:16
  SPEAKER_00: And that accountability is really respected by liquor store owners and different things like that to make sure, and the bar owners and brewery owners like yourself, to make sure people aren't oversurred, to make sure they're going in with the right intention, to make sure they're gonna kind of making the right experience being several parts uh society.
• 15:32
  SPEAKER_00: And I think that it's not to it's not too much for dispensary, but the number one thing we talk about here is the people are different and the consumer is different.
• 15:40
  SPEAKER_00: I think people don't realize is that dispensary is fighting for this, and I say it just because I personally am living in Pennsylvania.
• 15:46
  SPEAKER_00: The lobbyists that are fighting my bill are our own industry, it's not the alcohol industry.
• 15:51
  SPEAKER_00: I'm not fighting against Anheuser Busch and Miller Coors.
• 15:54
  SPEAKER_00: Like I literally have them in my back pocket in partnership with me.
• 15:58
  SPEAKER_00: And one of the things that's amazing is these every other state the data shows that this it dies in the dispensary.
• 16:08
  SPEAKER_00: And because the soccer moms and the dads are just experimenting and he just quit drinking, he doesn't want to go to a buzzed-in thing and feel like he's getting patted down for a security thing to go buy a product.
• 16:18
  SPEAKER_00: He wants to access it just like he used to, his martinis and his and his IPAs.
• 16:26
  SPEAKER_00: Um, let's let's talk a little bit about your guys' story too.
• 16:29
  SPEAKER_00: Like um, what what line of work were you guys doing before?
• 16:31
  SPEAKER_00: You said some cafes to were you guys in all hospitality to stuff after this, or kind of a little variety of industries?
• 16:36
  SPEAKER_02: Kind of variety.
• 16:37
  SPEAKER_02: So uh my partner had a marketing company, and I'm with a company provides data intelligence.
• 16:44
  SPEAKER_02: I'm still there.
• 16:45
  SPEAKER_02: So he's uh now the full-time operating partner of the brewery.
• 16:48
  SPEAKER_02: Uh I still have my my regular job, uh, if you want to call it that, right?
• 16:53
  SPEAKER_02: So um, you know, so a variety of industries, but we've always been in hospitality, you know, throughout our lives.
• 16:59
  SPEAKER_02: So I mean, again, dating back, I started bartending at 17 years old, uh, working in restaurants, working in bars.
• 17:06
  SPEAKER_02: So I always had that uh in the background.
• 17:09
  SPEAKER_02: He did the same as as as a younger, as his as his younger self, right?
• 17:13
  SPEAKER_02: And um, so it was just kind of a natural evolution.
• 17:16
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, I love this industry.
• 17:17
  SPEAKER_02: I love this the service industry, um, bringing people together, allowing to have a curated experience, and just meeting people in the social aspect of it.
• 17:25
  SPEAKER_02: So I think it was always something that we both thought we'd be back into in some capacity.
• 17:31
  SPEAKER_02: It was just what capacity uh did we want to be in.
• 17:35
  SPEAKER_00: What um I was uh just while you were talking there, I scrolled my eyes across for many of the beer names because that was that's another thing I was like talking about.
• 17:43
  SPEAKER_00: So you guys went with the historical realm of things.
• 17:45
  SPEAKER_00: Like, is that do you guys get some uh get some real uh history buffs coming in there to drink some drink some beers?
• 17:51
  SPEAKER_02: So we do a little yeah, a little context uh for the listeners, you know, Toms River is a really important uh area and site for the American Revolution.
• 17:58
  SPEAKER_02: Uh, there's a lot of historical battles and strategic uh points here because of uh the location of the Toms River, the waterways that allowed you know provisions to be uh brought to troops.
• 18:11
  SPEAKER_02: And the downtown area, I mean, our building was built in the early 1800s.
• 18:16
  SPEAKER_02: So there's a lot of history here.
• 18:18
  SPEAKER_02: So we try to play on that history not only in the names of beers, uh, but you know, pretty much everything that we do here in the brand.
• 18:27
  SPEAKER_02: If you saw um Amity Vilhara, okay, yeah.
• 18:32
  SPEAKER_02: The house was here.
• 18:33
  SPEAKER_02: Uh yeah, so there's um there's some there's some bases here.
• 18:37
  SPEAKER_00: When you when you guys got started, let's talk about so 10, 15 years ago, there was like 10,000 people and their and their mom wanted to start brewing.
• 18:47
  SPEAKER_00: Do you get a lot of that now where guys are still coming in talking the dream and stuff like that?
• 18:51
  SPEAKER_00: Or do you think the industry is really kind of starting to sift out who's a business owner and who's who's doing a bus hobby kind of thing?
• 18:58
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, you know, I think we still hear it, right?
• 19:00
  SPEAKER_02: Like, oh man, this is my dream.
• 19:02
  SPEAKER_02: I would love to do it.
• 19:02
  SPEAKER_02: And then you you start talking to them a little bit about it, and you know, maybe that kind of gets tempered a little bit.
• 19:07
  SPEAKER_02: Just just a just a touch, right?
• 19:09
  SPEAKER_02: I think we were because we weren't home brewers, maybe we were just not smart enough to understand that it's a it's a very challenging industry, uh, with you know, very thin margins, and you have to be on top of things.
• 19:22
  SPEAKER_02: So, you know, again, we we say maybe we're just too dumb to understand.
• 19:27
  SPEAKER_02: Um, but you know, we did it, and you know, we continue to to evolve and and adapt to the to the to the marketplace.
• 19:34
  SPEAKER_00: I look at it from I I I flip the lens on you and I said you're not too dumb.
• 19:38
  SPEAKER_00: You guys actually had you had just enough negative expectations that you're already for the baseline.
• 19:44
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, no, and I think it helps a lot because even you know, when we're talking to our our brewer, you know, we give them you know a lot of creative you know opportunity with our with our directive, but because we're business people, we don't mind failing.
• 19:59
  SPEAKER_02: Like let's try this.
• 20:00
  SPEAKER_02: If it if it doesn't work, like it's okay.
• 20:02
  SPEAKER_02: You know, most brewers you know that come up from being a home brewer to opening their brewery probably wouldn't.
• 20:07
  SPEAKER_02: They'd probably stick to you know what they know.
• 20:10
  SPEAKER_02: Uh so we give a little bit more flexibility in that.
• 20:12
  SPEAKER_02: And so far it's worked out well.
• 20:15
  SPEAKER_02: Nice.
• 20:16
  SPEAKER_00: What um what would you uh what what's kind of some advice do you give to somebody if they're really getting to the point where they're they're not just hitting out the place in the basement and and actually putting pen and paper and starting a business plan?
• 20:27
  SPEAKER_00: What's kind of the number one cautionary tale for them?
• 20:30
  SPEAKER_00: Uh let's say specifically New Jersey, yeah.
• 20:33
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I mean specifically New Jersey, I would say whatever you think the regulations, taxation, you know, double or triple it.
• 20:41
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, the amount the amount of paperwork that you have to do, uh the amount of regulations that change all the time and you have to be on top of uh changes and it's onerous.
• 20:50
  SPEAKER_02: Um it's really that you do need to understand uh back office and administrative things a lot more uh than you do have to run the business.
• 21:00
  SPEAKER_02: The running the business part, I think, you know, if I can give them advice, if we learned it, my partner and I, I think anybody can.
• 21:06
  SPEAKER_02: Uh it's just that there are a lot of things that go along with it legislatively and administratively that really can drag you down.
• 21:16
  SPEAKER_00: Tell me a little bit about have you guys um when you guys go to other states or anything like that, are there any things you see when you're looking at other breweries?
• 21:22
  SPEAKER_00: Are other things you'll accomplish we have that thing over here that you couldn't?
• 21:26
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, you know, I think uh obviously Pennsylvania is is close enough, but you know, um where you could just do everything, right?
• 21:34
  SPEAKER_02: Where you can have distilled products, you could have something.
• 21:36
  SPEAKER_00: It's uh no, it's uh that's that's what they're passing.
• 21:38
  SPEAKER_00: That's a bill that's a legislation.
• 21:40
  SPEAKER_00: So yeah, a brewery cannot produce uh just distilled spirits on the same site.
• 21:44
  SPEAKER_00: So now they have a it's called the fruit spill, which we're we're they're helping them as well, uh, because we have RTD spirits in our portfolio and breweries, breweries are looking for outlets like yourself as well, fellows of revenue.
• 21:55
  SPEAKER_00: So, yeah, they can't produce uh copac distilled spirits, they can sell it over the bar.
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_00: But they can't sell it to take it home.
• 22:02
  SPEAKER_00: A can of cocktail a can cocktail has a permit as well.
• 22:05
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 22:05
  SPEAKER_02: So I mean other states, I mean, I guess Pennsylvania knows with the new legislation, but uh, you know, other states where you have it all on one site and you can appeal to uh a broader market, right?
• 22:16
  SPEAKER_02: So um again, not everybody drinks beer.
• 22:18
  SPEAKER_02: So you you want a group of people, a group of friends, family, uh to come in to a place where they can all enjoy it.
• 22:24
  SPEAKER_02: Uh so you know, if if if there can be anything, it would be you know, change the legislation where you know we can do more than just uh small beverages on site.
• 22:34
  SPEAKER_00: It's it's funny too.
• 22:35
  SPEAKER_00: Like it's it's also like a it's it's a trust thing as well that seems really immature for every legislator in every state that they don't just allow you if you can produce money helping average.
• 22:45
  SPEAKER_00: Now, cannabis and all that medical or recreational, that's different.
• 22:49
  SPEAKER_00: But when you're talking about hemp and you're talking about alcohol and you're talking about all these other things, if you trust somebody to produce beer at scale as a braid, the fact that you're like, no, you cannot do distilled spirits, like, but then another guy who's the same equivalent business can to do spirits and the cans of break.
• 23:04
  SPEAKER_00: And you beer right now.
• 23:05
  SPEAKER_00: I think it's amazing because we allow, not speaking ill of distributors, because I come from that world and I love them all.
• 23:10
  SPEAKER_00: We allow distributors to consolidate and build their their cells when things get bad, they consolidate.
• 23:16
  SPEAKER_00: And that's what you do as a business owner.
• 23:17
  SPEAKER_00: What I don't understand is why we can't, and I'm actually going down to DC to talk about this uh with some Congress people at the end of the month.
• 23:24
  SPEAKER_00: And it's I don't understand how we can't condense categories like we allow businesses to condense in the whole in the wholesale tiers as well.
• 23:31
  SPEAKER_00: And it's one of those things where they don't understand that like we can increase the entire ecosystem in the community if every single consumer can experience what they want when they're in there.
• 23:40
  SPEAKER_00: So if somebody walks in, they can have their buddy can have an RTD can cocktail, the other friend can have an IPA, and the other guy can have a 10 milligram hem drink.
• 23:47
  SPEAKER_00: Like that's the utopian world.
• 23:48
  SPEAKER_00: And for some reason, it doesn't feel like a pipe dream if everybody would get their head out of their ass and realize that the world's changed, and then we need the the old trickle-down.
• 24:00
  SPEAKER_00: So, and then I'm not just picking on New Jersey, I'm blind, I'm broadstroking all these weird laws that exist.
• 24:05
  SPEAKER_00: Even the one, uh I think it's away now, but I remember probably 15 years ago, I was on a trip down to Texas, and um I ordered a beer at 9 a.m.
• 24:12
  SPEAKER_00: in a layover on my way to San Diego, and the guy was like, Well, it's Sunday.
• 24:17
  SPEAKER_00: And I was like, Yeah, no, uh beer, and you gotta have a full meal before you have a beer.
• 24:22
  SPEAKER_00: I know it's just like, where are we?
• 24:24
  SPEAKER_02: Like, what what what world do we live in?
• 24:27
  SPEAKER_02: Utah has some of those same same laws too, where you can't have a beer and a and a shot next to each other, right?
• 24:34
  SPEAKER_02: So um, yeah, like you said, I mean, you know, legislation again, it's so fragmented, right?
• 24:39
  SPEAKER_02: So, you know, when you you cross a border three miles away, things are so much different.
• 24:45
  SPEAKER_00: And it's it is, and it's what it's uh it's funny too.
• 24:47
  SPEAKER_00: Like uh, and in the reverse, I'll make on a Pennsylvania.
• 24:50
  SPEAKER_00: Remember, like our old laws were on Sundays, you can always sell alcohol from 12 to 5 on Sunday.
• 24:55
  SPEAKER_02: So my very my very first concert, I might have been like 15, had a couple buddies driving.
• 24:59
  SPEAKER_02: Uh we went to Philly for Lollapalooza, and it was a Sunday.
• 25:03
  SPEAKER_02: And we learned a hard lesson that day because we tried to get we tried to get alcohol before the concert and nobody would sell it.
• 25:12
  SPEAKER_00: That was uh that was my first uh foray into legislation.
• 25:15
  SPEAKER_00: I think it was like 22 or something when we're not allowed to for the concert.
• 25:20
  SPEAKER_00: Oh man.
• 25:20
  SPEAKER_00: And I I grew up in uh in in West Virginia and they had a similar thing too.
• 25:24
  SPEAKER_00: And we were my mom was like, if she was going to get her wine on Sunday for the week, you couldn't buy it until 12 or 1 o'clock, too.
• 25:29
  SPEAKER_00: It was like nobody was allowed to drink what alcohol during church hours.
• 25:34
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, it drove it was driven by church.
• 25:38
  SPEAKER_00: Perfect.
• 25:38
  SPEAKER_00: Well, um, tell me a little bit about like uh tell tell everybody kind of where they can find you.
• 25:43
  SPEAKER_00: Uh I know we talked about Times River and everything like that.
• 25:45
  SPEAKER_00: Give them the website, give them the socials and everything like that, and uh, and kind of what kind of things you might have going on this year they can look forward to.
• 25:52
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, so um battleriver brewing.com, and that's basically the socials as well, Battle River Brewing.
• 25:58
  SPEAKER_02: Uh yeah, it's really unique down here at the brewery.
• 26:01
  SPEAKER_02: So we strategically you know chose the downtown location for a reason, and the township and our uh local business improvement district uh for downtown uh put on, you know, especially during the summer months.
• 26:13
  SPEAKER_02: Every Friday and Saturday they close uh the downtown area streets.
• 26:16
  SPEAKER_02: So the local restaurants and some of our you know businesses, like the brewery and uh local distillery, can uh have people sit on the street, enjoy their dinner, uh, eat and drink out there.
• 26:28
  SPEAKER_02: So that's something that's done.
• 26:29
  SPEAKER_02: And then once a month they do put on a large festival, same thing down in downtown Times River.
• 26:34
  SPEAKER_02: They get a whole bunch of vendors shut down the streets and and they have a party uh pretty much all day.
• 26:39
  SPEAKER_02: If you're looking for us uh around the state, uh Ocean and Monmouth County, uh we're pretty concentrated in our um on and off-premise uh partners, uh, but there are some you know larger partners that you know throughout the state, uh your choke canals, your wine outlets, you know, those symptoms.
• 26:56
  SPEAKER_00: A lot of uh if you guys, if you guys want, but now I'll cut it out.
• 26:59
  SPEAKER_00: Uh a lot of the times uh people in this industry give distributors a bad idea.
• 27:07
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, so I mean in Jersey we self-distribute.
• 27:10
  SPEAKER_02: Nice, very cool.
• 27:11
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, so um, you know, I think that's something that you know we've we've talked about.
• 27:18
  SPEAKER_02: Um, but as you know, it's pretty consolidated here in New Jersey.
• 27:22
  SPEAKER_02: And you know, the legislation and laws are once you're with a distributor, uh, it's pretty hard to break that, you know, agreement.
• 27:30
  SPEAKER_02: Uh so we just want to make sure that you know, as we grow, uh we penetrate our home market, grow out, and then there if there comes a time to to partner with the distributor, uh it's the right partnership and it makes sense for for both sides.
• 27:45
  SPEAKER_00: It's the same that even even when I was working in the distributor world as a brand manager, uh, craft breweries would come in all the time, and you know, they would they would be like they wouldn't understand the process.
• 27:55
  SPEAKER_00: And and I I I worked with them from a very like, you know, a way of every part of understanding the practice, but I also encourage them to activate self-distribution before going with a distributor.
• 28:05
  SPEAKER_00: Even when I was a distributor, and especially now that I'm in the side of the brands, you know, a lot of people don't understand in the alcohol world when you sign those contracts, those those distribution contracts and the perpetuity and the and the tide blow around the three-tier laws and fragrance.
• 28:20
  SPEAKER_00: Is uh it is a it is a uh it's an evil thing that used to be in the 50, um, but now is is something that just really constrains at the rest of the party things that work out and turn it into a distributor and you want to tell everybody starting up or experience these dates.
• 28:37
  SPEAKER_00: I speak with a lot of clients, I meet different people all every week.
• 28:40
  SPEAKER_00: And the amount of time people rush in because they're so excited to get that distribution contract, sell those 12 pallets right off the shot, and get that cash in their bank.
• 28:48
  SPEAKER_00: Don't realize 10, 15 years down the road when that when that distributor changes or sells themselves, you know, to somebody else, you're part of that asset that they're selling.
• 28:57
  SPEAKER_00: And and when you look at yourself as an asset, when you go into it and not a human, I try to advise everybody because it allows you to defend yourself better.
• 29:05
  SPEAKER_00: It allows yourself to take your emotions out and realize you're selling an asset to them and they're gonna have an asset they're gonna sell.
• 29:10
  SPEAKER_00: And you need to go into that contract accordingly, because once you sign that dotted line, that's it.
• 29:16
  SPEAKER_02: Um the reality is that no one's gonna build and grow your brand and sell your brand.
• 29:24
  SPEAKER_02: Like yourself, right?
• 29:26
  SPEAKER_02: And your employees, they know about the product, they know about the brand, they know about the quality.
• 29:31
  SPEAKER_02: Uh you know, if you rush into a distributor contract, like you said, you're just one part of a very big portfolio.
• 29:41
  SPEAKER_02: You know, and maybe you'll see the initial growth in the first couple of months, and that's really exciting.
• 29:45
  SPEAKER_02: What happens in months seven, eight, nine uh when they have another three or four you know, craft breweries come come come come online during that time.
• 29:54
  SPEAKER_02: Um, you know, they're getting paid by the big boys.
• 29:58
  SPEAKER_02: So, you know, again, it has to be right for both sides, and I think you hit the nail on the head.
• 30:02
  SPEAKER_02: Um, grow your brand, do it right, uh, and then you know, you can make a decision on the business, you know, down the line.
• 30:10
  SPEAKER_00: And it's it also allows, and I'll speak positively, it allows for a common respect.
• 30:14
  SPEAKER_00: And I think one of the biggest things is if you're a brand that just sells your sells your track to trailer out for track to trailer out to a distributor, and you never spend time in the market, you never work with your distributor, you just live off of those checks, and then whatever amount of time it takes for your distributor to push your brand for you, it doesn't work anymore.
• 30:28
  SPEAKER_00: And so I want everybody to understand, like in when you sell to a distributor, you're not just selling the track to trailer, you also need to go with the depletions out of your and so one of the big things about self-distribution is you gotta understand the depletions and you gotta understand the infrastructure.
• 30:42
  SPEAKER_00: You gotta understand what it's like to carry a pipe down in a basement and while you're driving by and somebody while while you're looking out of your left eye because somebody's trying to rob your van of the other stuff, even though you have the kid in your hands.
• 30:54
  SPEAKER_00: So I think those are the experiences where it allows a common respect for each other and an understanding for what other each other does.
• 31:01
  SPEAKER_00: And then it eliminates a lot of that vagueness because we hear a lot of distributor horror stories, but when you go through the onion layer of those stories, a lot of the times it's because expectations weren't set and accountability wasn't set.
• 31:13
  SPEAKER_00: And you know, you didn't check in with your brand manager every month, which people are like, that's crazy.
• 31:17
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, you should.
• 31:18
  SPEAKER_00: You should be talking to your brand manager every month, you should be talking to your accounts every month.
• 31:21
  SPEAKER_00: You know what I mean?
• 31:22
  SPEAKER_00: And it's like, even if they're not buying it, you can give them a 30-second call and just say, hey, how's the brand doing?
• 31:27
  SPEAKER_00: What are the other brands that are doing well?
• 31:29
  SPEAKER_00: Because that's the biggest thing I want to tell every brand out there is we do not do enough competitive analysis.
• 31:34
  SPEAKER_00: We are so focused on our own stuff that we don't see the opportunities in the in the other spaces on the shelf and anywhere on the draft lines.
• 31:41
  SPEAKER_02: So yeah, I mean, I think, you know, you captured it perfectly there.
• 31:46
  SPEAKER_02: And I think that's you know why uh we made the decision, you know, to self-distribute first.
• 31:51
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, we made a lot of mistakes.
• 31:53
  SPEAKER_02: We thought, okay, let's grow so fast, right?
• 31:56
  SPEAKER_02: Let's hit every county in New Jersey.
• 31:57
  SPEAKER_02: We sent our guys out, and then we're oh you should not go, you should not be on the hell on that approach.
• 32:02
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 32:03
  SPEAKER_02: And then all of a sudden we're like, you look at the numbers and you look at the experience, right?
• 32:08
  SPEAKER_02: Like, okay, wow, we're selling one case a month up in Bergen County.
• 32:12
  SPEAKER_02: Now it takes our driver an hour and a half each way.
• 32:15
  SPEAKER_02: Uh, you know, is that really worth it?
• 32:17
  SPEAKER_02: Let's concentrate on our core.
• 32:19
  SPEAKER_02: So, you know, we we pulled back.
• 32:21
  SPEAKER_02: Uh, you know, we made mistakes, and I think if we did that with a distributor uh partnership, it would ruin a lot of things.
• 32:27
  SPEAKER_02: But yeah, we we're gonna we're gonna make mistakes along the way.
• 32:30
  SPEAKER_02: We want to understand the whole supply chain.
• 32:32
  SPEAKER_02: We want to understand the experience, we want to understand, you know, what happens from the time we make the beer to go out to sell it, to deliver it, and you know, obviously work with our our on and off-premise partners uh to make sure we have our process down completely as well uh before we step into any type of relationship with a district.
• 32:52
  SPEAKER_00: Absolutely.
• 32:53
  SPEAKER_00: No, that's perfect.
• 32:54
  SPEAKER_00: Well, Gary, I really appreciate you taking the time today.
• 32:57
  SPEAKER_00: And I really I I want to I say this a lot, but I need it every time because these people, the people that come on, like you, I I just I'm so uh it's courageous.
• 33:05
  SPEAKER_00: And and the reason I need to tell you is behind the scenes I get rejected a lot because people are like, I don't want to come on without any questions or prep.
• 33:11
  SPEAKER_00: You're fucking crazy.
• 33:12
  SPEAKER_00: And so it's my filter, and uh, I call it a an asshole filter because you don't come on and uh if you don't know what you're talking about and and without questions or anything like that.
• 33:22
  SPEAKER_00: So you you know your you know your business, you're passionate about your business.
• 33:26
  SPEAKER_00: And uh I'll also give you a commitment that this year I am trying to, anybody in the Mid Atlantic region, I am trying to physically come out and meet everybody at some point this year that comes on the show.
• 33:35
  SPEAKER_00: So I'll send you a message ahead of time when I'm up in New Jersey next time and stop by and uh shake your hand in person so that we can uh kind of keep this relationship going.
• 33:42
  SPEAKER_00: And I want to invite you back for uh some other stuff as well.
• 33:45
  SPEAKER_00: We're gonna do some roundtables and some different topical things.
• 33:48
  SPEAKER_00: And uh maybe we'll do something with uh with alcohol and hemp in New Jersey and keep the topic on that.
• 33:53
  SPEAKER_00: We can kind of have a three-way discussion in multiple categories at once.
• 33:56
  SPEAKER_02: No, that'd be great.
• 33:57
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, I appreciate the time and I, you know, I this is wonderful.
• 34:00
  SPEAKER_02: I listen to the to the pod all the time.
• 34:02
  SPEAKER_02: Oh, thanks, man.
• 34:03
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, so it's just great that you know someone's out there, you know, advocating uh for the industry, you know, like you are.
• 34:08
  SPEAKER_02: So uh would love to keep in touch and I you know appreciate being on.
• 34:12
  SPEAKER_00: Absolutely.
• 34:12
  SPEAKER_00: And hey, if there's anything, any other guys you know or breweries that over in New Jersey that want to come on, please uh send my information over.
• 34:19
  SPEAKER_00: You can send that link over to them.
• 34:20
  SPEAKER_00: Um because this year, with the last two months, we've done a lot with the hemp with the legislation.
• 34:24
  SPEAKER_00: So I'm looking to bring more, get back in and bring some more breweries and start alternating through all the different uh categories.
• 34:29
  SPEAKER_00: So if you have any buddies, I'm looking forward to some guests and stuff like that as well.
• 34:33
  SPEAKER_00: So, but again, thank you so much.
• 34:35
  SPEAKER_00: And um, I'll close out with uh with with what I usually do here, but it's but it's true uh every day, other than anything else, is when you're uh when you're walking down the street, smile at a stranger, everybody, as you're listening and watching.
• 34:46
  SPEAKER_00: Please hold the door for a stranger.
• 34:48
  SPEAKER_00: When you're at the gas station filling up your coffee, ask the guy or girl next to you how they're doing today, and actually pause and listen to what the hell they say, because this world is beautiful yet destructive, and we are all in this alone in our minds, and in actuality, we're in together.
• 35:03
  SPEAKER_00: So I uh I I want people to understand that this there's no crap and questions.
• 35:09
  SPEAKER_00: This is a completely organic conversation.
• 35:14
  SPEAKER_00: Start watching these episodes mostly about it.
• 35:17
  SPEAKER_00: Meet some people who get and never hit any other book and person.
• 35:21
  SPEAKER_00: So hey guys, thank you so much for your time today.
• 35:24
  SPEAKER_00: I really appreciate it, man.
• 35:25
  SPEAKER_00: I'm looking forward to getting that you more over the course of the year.
• 35:27
  SPEAKER_02: Same here today, thank you.
• 35:28
  SPEAKER_00: All right, take care everybody, have a good day.
• 35:30
  SPEAKER_02: Bye bye.