Latest / Ignoring the Rules: Leadership That Actually Works / Examining the Rules

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Examining the Rules · Ignoring the Rules: Leadership That Actually Works

0:00
Efficiency is key in today's fast -paced environment,
0:02
but it's not just about getting things done faster.
0:05
It's about doing so without sacrificing the well
0:08
-being of our team members. A great work -life
0:12
balance isn't just a perk. It's a necessity for
0:16
sustained success. And project leaders must take
0:20
a hard, critical look at how they've handled
0:23
projects in the past and be willing to make the
0:26
necessary changes. no matter how painful, to
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achieve incredible results. Let's explore how
0:34
we can refine our project processes to not only
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meet our goals, but exceed them while keeping
0:41
our teams happy and productive. I'm Wayne Robertson,
0:45
and welcome to Ignoring the Rules, the podcast
0:49
where we challenge the status quo and redefine
0:53
how to get projects done. In this episode, I
1:20
want to dive deep into the essential but often
1:23
uncomfortable process of examining the rules
1:26
that guide our project methodologies. The pandemic
1:30
forced us all to revisit and rethink the way
1:34
we approach our work, shining a spotlight on
1:37
the inefficiencies and outdated practices that
1:40
were holding us back. It's time to eliminate
1:43
the rules that no longer serve us. modify those
1:47
that need adjustment, and double down on what
1:50
truly works. I want to meticulously scrub project
1:53
plans to uncover what works, what doesn't, and
1:57
how we can streamline every aspect to achieve
2:00
maximum efficiency, outstanding results. But
2:04
it's not just about the plan. It's about the
2:08
people. How your project team is organized, treated,
2:13
and led. can make or break your success. And
2:18
so in this episode, I want to focus on project
2:21
leaders and exploring how they can implement
2:24
changes that propel the teams to new heights
2:27
of success. Whether you're managing a small team
2:31
or overseeing a complex multi -layered project,
2:36
this episode will provide you with actionable
2:38
ideas to drive your project forward faster, with
2:43
greater quality and accuracy than you've had
2:45
before, probably. Let's dive in and discover
2:49
how ignoring the rules can lead to extraordinary
2:53
success. How can we ignore the rules? Well, it
2:57
started many years ago when I struggled to get
2:59
technical projects completed on time and meeting
3:03
the goals. After several years of working with
3:06
team members and management, I slowly developed
3:09
new methods of handling projects. It was a long
3:12
process of trial and error, but eventually some
3:16
clear tactics became obvious. If you are working
3:20
on any kind of project, you can benefit greatly
3:24
from the ideas in this podcast. I spent almost
3:27
40 years working in technology and leading projects,
3:31
and really enjoyed those many projects for large,
3:35
medium, and small companies. Hey, picture this.
3:39
You're at work sipping your coffee when suddenly
3:42
your boss drops a bombshell project on your desk.
3:46
And you look at the timeline, and you wonder
3:50
if they're secretly auditioning you for a role
3:53
in a comedy show. Because, let's face it, that
3:57
schedule is a joke. But fear not, because here
4:01
on Ignoring the Rules, we're going to find ways
4:04
to turn your project nightmares into success.
4:08
Faster than you can say budget overrun. But now
4:12
you might be wondering, what qualifies you to
4:16
comment on this? Well, let me tell you. I have
4:20
survived more project disasters than I care to
4:24
admit. Even a few I caused. From missed deadlines
4:28
to huge budget blowouts. I've seen a lot of it.
4:32
But, you know, every scar tells a story. And
4:37
if there's one thing I've learned, it's that
4:39
laughter is the best medicine. Of course, followed
4:43
closely by a well -executed project plan. So
4:48
grab your hard hats, folks, because we're about
4:51
to embark on a journey filled with sticky notes,
4:54
status meetings, and more acronyms than you can
4:58
shake a pert chart at. Whether you're a seasoned
5:01
project manager or just trying to figure out
5:03
how to keep your inbox from exploding, this...
5:06
podcast is for you. Because when it comes to
5:10
business project management, the only thing we
5:13
take seriously is having a good laugh along the
5:16
way. And I'm just trying very hard not to take
5:20
myself too seriously at all times. The following
5:24
story is fictional because I need to keep the
5:27
actual experiences confidential. But it illustrates
5:31
some key issues that arise in getting projects
5:34
done. And this is the story of Jack, a project
5:39
manager who was responsible for completing a
5:43
highly complex technical project. At the outset,
5:46
he followed all the conventional rules of project
5:50
timelines and task allocations and strict adherence
5:53
to company procedures. But despite his best efforts,
5:59
the project began to crumble. Deadlines were
6:02
consistently missed. Tasks were delayed, and
6:06
the team was becoming increasingly frustrated.
6:10
Morale was low. And to make matters worse, some
6:13
valuable team members decided to leave for other
6:17
opportunities. Realizing something had to change,
6:22
Jack took a step back to analyze the situation.
6:26
He scrutinized every aspect of the project, the
6:30
team dynamics, and the company's culture. And
6:34
through this introspection, he came to a very
6:38
critical conclusion. The rules he was so diligently
6:43
following were actually hindering progress. Those
6:48
rules were more about maintaining the status
6:50
quo than about achieving success. He understood
6:54
that he needed to shift his focus entirely, away
6:58
from the rigid rules, and toward the well -being
7:02
and efficiency his team members. With a clear
7:06
plan in mind, he started making significant changes.
7:10
He identified which rules were merely habits
7:13
and began ignoring them if they didn't directly
7:17
contribute to the project success. He emphasized
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the importance of work -life balance, encouraging
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his team members to ensure they had enough time
7:27
for their personal lives and families. And this
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was a radical departure from the company's usual
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approach, which often placed project demands
7:38
above everything else. The initial implementation,
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I'll tell you, of these changes was tumultuous.
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The team was uncertain, and there was pushback
7:50
from those accustomed to the old ways. But Jack
7:54
persisted, and soon the results were undeniable.
7:59
Tasks were starting to get done faster, with
8:02
higher quality, and the team members were noticeably
8:07
happier. The atmosphere on the team transformed
8:10
and productivity soared. So word of this success
8:15
began to spread throughout the company. Other
8:18
employees, intrigued by the positive changes,
8:20
started to request transfers to this project,
8:23
eager to work under a manager. who prioritized
8:27
their well -being and made their work easier
8:30
and more fulfilling. Ultimately, the project's
8:34
success caught the attention of upper management.
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They were impressed not only by the results,
8:40
but by the innovative approach that Jack had
8:43
taken. By ignoring the rules that didn't serve
8:47
the project's goals and focusing on the team's
8:50
needs, he had turned a floundering project into
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a remarkable success story. You know, they say
8:57
the customer's always right, but if you're in
8:59
project management, it's more like the customer
9:01
is always rewriting the requirements. And you
9:07
know you're in trouble when your project plan
9:10
has more revisions than a Hollywood script. No
9:14
thanks. Now, one of the steps I took was when
9:18
I flipped the normal organization pyramid on
9:21
its head. and putting the working team at the
9:25
top and myself at the bottom. I've spent over
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36 years working in technology on a wide variety
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of projects, and this was one of the major changes
9:37
I end up making. By the way, a side note here.
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The hardest part was telling my parents what
9:46
I did for a living. My father was a mechanic,
9:49
a farmer. He was in World War II. A hands -on
9:54
person who could not understand how I could make
9:57
a living without using my hands. I didn't have
10:01
a wrench or a hammer. I told them I had great
10:04
team members, and I gave them overall goals and
10:07
helped out when there were problems. And when
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they asked what I did each day, the best I could
10:14
come up with was I held meetings, talked on the
10:17
phone, wrote many emails, filled out documents.
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And my father was stumped. He said I thought
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the team was professional and just knew what
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to do. And I had to explain that each team member
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has to be given information and goals as to what
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needs to be done. They don't just know them automatically.
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And it was very hard for him to understand. So...
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You know the standard project leadership shows
10:49
the management at the top of the team pyramid
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However when I pondered this The most important
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people are those that are normally down at the
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bottom Those are the people that are doing the
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hands -on work by flipping the pyramid The most
11:08
important team members the ones doing the work
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are at the top My job as a project leader was
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to support and take care of those team members
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and make sure they could get their work done.
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So, I want to mention that I don't have all the
11:25
answers to project problems and sometimes I wonder,
11:30
did you have any at all? But I want to present
11:34
a whole series of ideas for your consideration.
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And if I do nothing more... then to get you thinking
11:41
about how we get projects done, that will be
11:44
fantastic. I've not been very good at following
11:50
all the rules for projects. I remember the line,
11:53
individualism is fine as long as we all do it
11:56
together. Not for me. I was left standing out
12:01
by myself. I did not follow. So in addition,
12:07
over a number of years, And I've got to say,
12:10
a lot of help from team members. I've been able
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to develop a number of new methods of getting
12:16
projects done on time and in budget without harming
12:20
the team members with 19 -hour days. And early
12:26
on, I focused on several things that didn't work
12:30
out too well. I'm taking myself too seriously.
12:36
I'm not that important. Micro -management. That
12:40
was pretty tough. I did that a lot. Single focus
12:45
on deadlines and not anything else. I had bad
12:48
time management. I didn't value team members
12:52
enough. And I was a total mess -up on work -life
12:57
balance. So there were a couple of good guiding
13:02
principles that I wanted to follow in all of
13:04
this. 0 .99 % of all employees want to do a good
13:12
job. And the second guiding principle is people
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are the most important part of any project work.
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Many project leaders ask themselves what they
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were thinking of when they pursued this career,
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because projects are the cornerstone of business,
13:31
and getting these done is so critical. This is
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also an area where humongous mind -busting problems
13:39
can occur. And there are solutions. I'm going
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to give you ideas about changing methods of getting
13:47
these projects done that, for some people, might
13:52
seem revolutionary. And I know this is all a
13:57
controversial topic, but have no fear. I'm happy
14:00
to put my head down and charge into it. Regardless
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of your position in the project, whether it be
14:08
at the working level, all the way up to chief
14:11
executive, these ideas will apply. But I want
14:17
to warn you that going through these examples
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will provide a new set of ideas that at first
14:22
blush look crazy. All I ask, stay with me, and
14:27
I promise it will make sense. Hey, before we
14:30
dive into that, I want to start with a very...
14:33
Interesting example. And I call it the Betty
14:37
Crocker effect. In 1952, the newly developed
14:43
cake mix was just add water. Women, and by the
14:46
way, it was never men, added water and baked
14:49
the cake. Presto. Just pouring the cake mix powder
14:54
and water into a bowl, mix it, and then bake
14:58
it magically resulted in a cake. But... sales
15:02
were moderately successful. The recipe was reformulated,
15:07
and the woman making the cake needed to add one
15:12
fresh egg, and sales soared. Curious? Well, upon
15:20
further investigation, they found out the housewife
15:24
felt that she had an investment, and that she
15:28
actually made the cake. And now when she said
15:31
she made the cake, she felt she made an honest
15:35
statement, no lie. Well, this issue is going
15:40
to be a prominent part of this podcast. We need
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to involve each team member in the project and
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make sure they are not only contributing to the
15:50
project, but they feel like they played a great
15:54
role. Scoff if you will, but I've proved it in
15:59
past projects and we'll discuss in depth in future
16:02
sessions of how we can make this happen. I implemented
16:06
many different methods of getting projects done
16:09
and so I found out that there's a great need
16:12
to make some changes and you're going to have
16:16
troubles. Guess what? Not all are going to work
16:19
out well. And my methodology provided maximum
16:23
freedom to each team member. to get the work
16:26
done while providing overall guidance on what
16:29
needs to be done and supporting each team member
16:32
daily. And I worked with a large number of very
16:35
smart people. And they did heavy lifting in the
16:40
work. And I was there to watch, to help, to assist
16:44
wherever I could. And in the beginning, I was
16:47
one of those horrible project leaders that caused
16:50
so much grief to many. I came across this idea
16:54
when I thought about who gets the work done.
16:57
Because I realized when I was leading the teams,
17:01
I didn't do any of the actual work. And therefore,
17:05
that is why I flipped the organization chart.
17:09
And you would not believe the grief I got for
17:13
flipping that thing on its head. You would have
17:16
thought I was asking project leaders to resign
17:18
their position. Smart people that I highly respected
17:22
fought me on this. But undaunted, I've gone ahead
17:27
and been extremely happy with the results. But
17:30
in the early days, I made many mistakes. And
17:33
my goal here is not to just dwell on the mistakes,
17:36
but I want to point out what can happen. The
17:40
first one is procrastination. I'm the king of
17:44
procrastination. I have to discipline myself
17:47
to keep moving. Now, this type of project manager
17:51
has never heard of the word punctual, sometimes
17:56
not too bothered about it. When it comes to deliverables
18:00
and schedules, these project managers always
18:03
seem to miss the deadlines, and they push tasks
18:06
further on for a later time. They fail to deliver
18:10
on a routine basis, and don't seem to attain
18:14
the results they were required to reach. Another
18:18
problem is micromanaging. Because I felt no one
18:24
did it the right way. And the right way just
18:27
happened to be my way. Amazing. Well, this type
18:32
of bad project manager doesn't mean ill, but
18:36
tends to go the extra mile to look into the work
18:39
performed by the project team members. This person
18:43
looks through every piece of manageable task.
18:45
Not a single detail is spared. And often this
18:49
behavior can get project team members feeling
18:51
a bit suffocated as they aren't allowed their
18:54
space for creative or hard work. These managers
18:59
want to be updated every now and then about each
19:03
and every development that takes place over the
19:06
span of a workday. And while they can try these
19:10
ideas on new project team members, most often
19:14
than ever, breathing down the neck of an experienced
19:18
team member's throat can lead to dissatisfaction
19:21
among team members who actually perform heavy
19:25
-duty work. So, a high -level view of the tasks
19:29
for the day or the week should be enough for
19:33
a project manager to plan and to perform the
19:36
allocations of tasks. But for bad project managers,
19:40
this is not enough. Too sunny. Hey, I developed
19:46
a new word. Super optimist. Everything is going
19:51
to work out great. And this type of project manager
19:55
loves feeling high and wants everyone on the
19:59
team to feel the same too. And I agree, optimism
20:03
is a good thing. But overly optimistic forms
20:08
a whole new story altogether. This is most of
20:11
the case with new project managers as they only
20:14
like to see the bright side of things and refrain
20:17
from addressing the pressure points or the pain
20:20
points of a project. This can lead to a lopsided
20:24
project and disrupt the real picture that the
20:27
project team needs to look at. And so as a project
20:31
manager, they will need to look at the project
20:33
in a very real sense. and indulge in tough decision
20:38
-making ventures. Sugarcoating is this bad project
20:42
manager's forte, and not everything in life and
20:46
business is a piece of cake. So if you're dealing
20:49
with a bad project manager who has a perpetual
20:51
smile and a hint of lunacy in believing that
20:54
everything is perfect, then you're at the mercy
20:56
of someone who is mad. The other side is everything
21:02
is terrible and my new word is super pessimist.
21:07
That's strikingly opposite of the optimist. This
21:11
type of bad project manager might not even see
21:14
the glass there, much less half full. While a
21:18
pessimist can give you and your team a reality
21:21
check on the project's activities, they will
21:24
only worry and emphasize about the tasks yet
21:28
to be completed. and the difficulties they might
21:32
pose in the future. These project managers don't
21:35
look at the team's and the project's past achievements
21:37
and reward the team for that. There is no recognition
21:41
or acknowledgement of any sort, and this routine
21:45
work can be quite depressing and can push team
21:48
members off track, even if they were doing a
21:52
good job before. These pessimistic project managers
21:56
will severely criticize the work that hasn't
21:59
been done without paying attention to the excellent
22:03
work that they do. Another problem is a grain
22:08
to everything, and that was at one point my Achilles
22:13
heel. This type of project manager will allot
22:17
you to multiple tasks in a day and overburden
22:19
you immensely, because they can't say no. This
22:24
project manager is the yes machine of your team,
22:27
and since the position is that of a leader, you
22:30
can expect senior management cascading a lot
22:33
of work down to you. And the main problem with
22:38
this project manager is the fear of conflict.
22:42
These individuals, they don't intentionally mean
22:44
to cause a situation of work overload, but with
22:48
the constant yes, they... don't realize that
22:52
they are sabotaging the project plan as well
22:55
as the peace of mind of project team members.
22:58
They simply are afraid of confronting and putting
23:02
their foot down in front of external clients
23:05
or senior and top management. I was thinking
23:10
the other day, but of course thinking is exhausting.
23:13
I don't plan to do that too often. When I was
23:17
a line worker in a project, the view was so much
23:20
different when I became a project leader. The
23:23
view from project leading is end -to -end. But
23:26
as a worker on the project, I just cared about
23:28
my activities. And, you know, looking back over
23:33
my experience in life, I remember hearing from
23:36
adults when I was a child. If you asked them
23:38
how they were doing, they would say, meddling,
23:40
just meddling. Well, life is too short. to be
23:46
just middling. And while there are always some
23:49
bad times, there are so many good times in life.
23:53
And so I am dedicated to helping people to be
23:57
the most successful they could be in their work
23:59
and life in general. And my parents were those
24:03
wonderful salt of the earth people that worked
24:06
so hard. My father was a mechanic and a farmer.
24:10
He worked so much harder than I ever will. And
24:13
he was so concerned about me that I did not take
24:17
to physical labor, put a hammer in my hands,
24:20
and everybody and everything around is in danger.
24:23
Turn me loose on fixing a car, and it may never
24:27
run again. And I found farming to be a bore.
24:32
But I did enjoy reading and learning new stuff.
24:36
And this actually did happen. We had chopped
24:39
the large tree into small pieces, then split
24:41
those up into four smaller pieces with an axe
24:44
to be burned in the stove, because we needed
24:48
to keep the house warm in winter. I was reading
24:51
a great book at the time, and was very intrigued,
24:55
so I kept the book in one hand and carried one
24:58
stick of wood at a time, and my father about
25:02
had a stroke. At one time he was concerned and
25:05
felt I would have a hard time earning a living,
25:08
because for a man born in 1919, not being able
25:12
to earn a living with your hands was a huge problem.
25:16
My father knew I worked in technology, and he
25:18
was not clear in what I did. If you didn't touch
25:22
something, he didn't understand what was accomplished.
25:26
You would ask me if I built computers? No. Do
25:29
you fix them? No. Do you create software? Not
25:32
anymore. I tried to explain that I work with
25:36
smart people who did the work and I help manage
25:38
the projects. And after a long pause, he then
25:42
asked, do you get paid for it? Oh, yes. Well,
25:46
okay, he said, at least someone sees value in
25:50
what you do, whatever it is. It was just too
25:52
hard for him to understand. He didn't understand
25:56
the role of management. And he asked why people
26:00
just didn't know what to do, and why they needed
26:02
someone to lay out the requirements, because
26:05
he had never worked in a project environment,
26:07
as all of his work was repeated every day, and
26:10
everyone knew what to do. Over the years I had
26:14
the fantastic opportunity to work with a huge
26:17
number of great people, both very senior experienced
26:21
and new graduates. And I also let my fingernails
26:25
grow longer so I could have something to chew
26:27
on when everything went bad in a project, which
26:30
was often, and that is normal in a project. If
26:35
you want to have a job where everything goes
26:38
smoothly without problems, I wouldn't recommend
26:41
projects. I've found projects to have extreme
26:46
lows and extreme highs, and sometimes on the
26:50
same day. But it brought a special thrill. My
26:54
family wondered if I was okay. And I want to
26:56
tell you that I was very successful in projects,
27:00
and I was. Eventually. But it took a long road
27:05
to get there. It was horrible in the early days.
27:09
But after long discussions with hundreds of team
27:12
members over the years, I was finally able to
27:15
come up with a few methods here that turned out
27:18
to be successful. But I owe all of those people
27:21
so much. as they gave me great feedback on how
27:25
they felt about their work. And after endless
27:28
questioning by me, I came to understand what
27:32
they wanted and how they wanted to work. And
27:35
that understanding helped me experiment on new
27:38
methodologies of getting these projects done.
27:41
Now, in the beginning, it was awful, and I was
27:44
stumbling around. But after much experimentation
27:48
and a lot of feedback from the team, there were
27:51
a number of things that came obvious to all of
27:54
us. Now, in addition to the team members, I was
27:57
responsible to upper management. There I also
28:00
stumbled around trying to find something to work.
28:04
And after a number of bad days and meetings with
28:06
upper management, there were some very kind executives
28:09
who coached me on how to work with them. Fortunately,
28:13
with the guidance of these executives, I focused
28:16
on some methodologies that enabled me to work
28:19
with them successfully. That does not mean it
28:22
turned out perfectly. It just means the stumbling
28:24
was less. And so over the years I've documented
28:29
those elements that worked and didn't work so
28:33
I could track some good ideas. And I want to
28:36
tell you that many of these things I did went
28:39
against the common thought of the day on how
28:41
to get projects done. Well, let me tell you this.
28:45
When I was a child, my parents were exasperated
28:48
with me as I constantly questioned, Everything.
28:52
And sometimes they took it personally. I adored
28:55
my parents, but I was so curious at how things
28:58
were done and why certain decisions were made.
29:01
I was very inquisitive and just loved to learn
29:05
about life. And while I was a continuous problem
29:08
growing up, this actually turned out to be a
29:12
great thing in my career as I looked at every
29:14
work step I did, trying to figure out how this
29:17
could be done better or easier. Now, my parents
29:21
were frustrated with me because they would ask,
29:24
why can't you just get the work done rather than
29:26
trying to figure out how to do it better? And
29:29
the stories I could tell you about my experience
29:32
as my teens trying to do things better is endless,
29:35
both good and bad. Hey, I may do that on one
29:40
of the episodes because it may help others in
29:42
similar situations. But I want to tell you about
29:46
team members, starting with engineers. They were
29:50
the unsung heroes of projects. They were the
29:54
ones that turn our wild dreams into concrete
29:57
realities, often with a sprinkle of duct tape
30:00
and a whole lot of caffeine. Picture this. You've
30:04
got a project deadline looming like a dark cloud
30:06
over your head, and the clock is ticking, the
30:09
pressure is mounting, and your engineers are
30:12
huddled around the computers like a pack of wild
30:14
wizards trying to conjure up a solution. And
30:17
just when you think they're on the brink of a
30:19
breakthrough, someone accidentally unplugs the
30:22
coffee machine and chaos ensues because coffee
30:25
is so critical. Now, let's talk about project
30:29
planning. You've got your timelines, your budgets,
30:33
and your meticulously crafted blueprints. Everything
30:38
seems to be going according to plan. until someone
30:42
points out a tiny detail that threatens to derail
30:46
everything. Cue the engineers armed with their
30:49
trusty spreadsheets. In an arsenal of that's
30:52
-not -in -the -spec excuses, but hey, who needs
30:55
a plan when you've got a team of engineers who
30:58
can MacGyver their way out of a situation? And
31:02
let's not forget about the joys of testing and
31:05
debugging. You've spent months working on a project,
31:09
pouring your heart and soul into every line of
31:12
code and every circuit board, but just when you
31:15
think you've finally cracked the code and everything's
31:17
working, you press the big red button and...
31:19
nothing. It's like watching a sad clown trying
31:23
to juggle flaming torches. Entertaining, but
31:26
ultimately a disaster waiting to happen. But,
31:31
hey, that's what the beta testing is for. And
31:33
who needs sleep when you can spend all night
31:35
chasing down elusive bugs and pondering the meaning
31:38
of life? And in the end, despite the sleepless
31:43
nights and endless meetings and the occasion
31:45
existential crisis, there is something magical.
31:49
about watching a project come together. It's
31:53
like witnessing a masterpiece unfold before your
31:55
very eyes. Now, I grant you a few more explosions
31:59
and a lot less dramatic music, but here's to
32:02
the engineers, the wizards of the modern age,
32:05
the masters of chaos, and the true heroes of
32:09
project completion. So I want you to join me
32:13
on this journey as I take you through the joys
32:15
and the tears of getting projects done. If you
32:19
are a line worker, lower -level management, upper
32:23
-level management, in a large company or small,
32:27
this podcast is for you. I think you'll find
32:31
great info regardless of your role. I will warn
32:35
you, I need to confess I'm very strange. If you're
32:38
looking for a podcast that provides information
32:41
in a well -laid -out manner without bizarre ideas,
32:44
this is not for you. However... If you like ideas
32:50
that at times seem to be out past Pluto, this
32:53
is the one. Thanks for tuning in to this episode
32:58
where we discuss the many different methods of
33:01
handling projects. And if you enjoyed this episode,
33:04
please rate it and review us on the platform
33:06
you're listening on. The reviews help us reach
33:09
more people. Also, I look forward to getting
33:13
your feedback as I learn from you on those comments.
33:16
And please feel free to disagree with me because
33:20
that's how I learn. Be civil in your responses
33:23
and I will be a very interested listener. And
33:28
please go to WayneRobertson .com for the latest
33:31
new episodes and additional information about
33:34
this new world of getting projects done. And
33:38
you can find the different locations where you
33:40
can conveniently listen to the podcast. Subscribe
33:42
to my mailing list. Find free documents I've
33:45
created, news and information about upcoming
33:49
podcasts. I also welcome comments about subjects
33:52
you would like to see in the future. I don't
33:55
have all the answers, but I'm always happy to
33:58
see your comments and information. We are all
34:02
in this together, and the more we share information,
34:04
the better we all will be. So let us know what
34:09
you found that works in your projects. and I'd
34:12
appreciate hearing from you. I'm Wayne Robertson,
34:15
and it's been a pleasure being with you on Ignoring
34:18
the Rules podcast. Hey, thanks for listening.
34:20
And remember, it is all about people. So until
34:24
next time, take care.