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Pastors' Perspective-10/14/26 · Pastors Perspective

• 0:19
  Speaker 1: Ladies and gentlemen, boys and girls, welcome to Pastor's Perspective.
• 0:23
  Speaker 1: 888-564-6173 is the number to call, and I was giving
• 0:28
  Speaker 1: out the phone number out of habit because I've been
• 0:30
  Speaker 1: doing it for so long now. I haven't had a
• 0:33
  Speaker 1: break in giving the phone number. Well, I have, yeah,
• 0:35
  Speaker 1: because Ed Stetzer has not been on the show in
• 0:37
  Speaker 1: several months, so
• 0:39
  Speaker 1: Today I do not have to give the phone number
• 0:41
  Speaker 1: out because Ed is joining us today along with Pastor
• 0:44
  Speaker 1: Brian Broderson. Ed is the, uh, dean at the Talbot
• 0:48
  Speaker 1: School of Theology at Viola University. Pastor Brian is the
• 0:51
  Speaker 1: pastor emeritus at Calvary Chapel Costa Mesa, and Ed, well, Brian,
• 0:55
  Speaker 1: it's always good to see you, but Ed, man, it's
• 0:58
  Speaker 1: been a while. It has been quite a few months,
• 1:02
  Speaker 1: and I'm glad to be back here and sorry about
• 1:04
  Speaker 1: the echo, but it sounds like they fixed that.
• 1:06
  Speaker 1: But it's, uh, yeah, I'm alive, uh, though that was
• 1:09
  Speaker 1: questionable at times, and so I am, I am here
• 1:12
  Speaker 1: and good to be here and good to see you.
• 1:14
  Speaker 1: I don't remember the phone number, so if you want
• 1:15
  Speaker 1: me to say it, I'm gonna fail at it. You
• 1:16
  Speaker 1: don't remember the phone number? Well, I mean, it's on
• 1:19
  Speaker 1: the wall there. I would look up on the wall.
• 1:21
  Speaker 1: I thought you had it memorized. Tell me the phone
• 1:23
  Speaker 1: number right now or you say it out loud and
• 1:24
  Speaker 1: then I will say it the rest of the show. 888-564-6173.
• 1:30
  Speaker 1: Sound familiar? 6173. It does. Once you say it, it's 888-564-6173. Listen,
• 1:36
  Speaker 1: we're here on Pastor's Perspective. We got Brian Broderson, Brian Perez.
• 1:40
  Speaker 1: I'm Ed Stetzer who likes to occasionally take over the
• 1:42
  Speaker 1: microphone because, you know, every Saturday, like, who listens to
• 1:45
  Speaker 1: Saturday radio though? Let's just be honest. Like I'm on.
• 1:48
  Speaker 1: Like the time when basically if you're in your garage
• 1:52
  Speaker 1: and you have a radio, you turn it on and
• 1:54
  Speaker 1: that's me. No drive time, you know, you guys are
• 1:57
  Speaker 1: on a drive time, that's when all the cool people listen,
• 1:58
  Speaker 1: but not, that's right, I still love you. I still
• 2:01
  Speaker 1: love you. People listen to you as they're making pancakes
• 2:03
  Speaker 1: on Saturday mornings, that's what I think. That is true,
• 2:05
  Speaker 1: or they're, they're working with their tools in their garage,
• 2:07
  Speaker 1: you know, I, I can tell the difference between you
• 2:09
  Speaker 1: and me. I, I'm a, I'm a very manly man,
• 2:11
  Speaker 1: as you know, um, I got a beard like Brian Broderson,
• 2:14
  Speaker 1: and if you see us on YouTube, you can actually
• 2:17
  Speaker 1: see this.
• 2:17
  Speaker 1: Um, but that, that's true. That's true. So I kind
• 2:20
  Speaker 1: of have some facial hair going on right now. The
• 2:23
  Speaker 1: last time I shaved was when you were on the
• 2:25
  Speaker 1: show here, Ed. So, um, it's been a while. No,
• 2:28
  Speaker 1: I'm joking. No, it's, it's, it's a joke. No, that's
• 2:30
  Speaker 1: a beard. I can't tell. I think, we'll let our
• 2:32
  Speaker 1: listeners decide or our viewers decide whether or not it's
• 2:34
  Speaker 1: a joke. It's a joke. That's all right. Good to
• 2:37
  Speaker 1: have you here, sir. Now, where have you been for
• 2:39
  Speaker 1: people who don't know?
• 2:40
  Speaker 1: Well, I had a medical crisis, something called an SDAVF.
• 2:43
  Speaker 1: Matter of fact, I just met with my, I had
• 2:46
  Speaker 1: two doctors this week, so I'm still struggling and trying
• 2:48
  Speaker 1: to figure out recovery. And my doctor I met with
• 2:51
  Speaker 1: today was very helpful, but he said, uh, I've never
• 2:54
  Speaker 1: I've never seen an SDAVF before, so it's a rare
• 2:57
  Speaker 1: spinal thing. And so he was all excited about Googling,
• 3:00
  Speaker 1: and every time I see a doctor, they're excited cause
• 3:01
  Speaker 1: it's like, oh, this, you know, everyday I deal with this,
• 3:03
  Speaker 1: but for today, I get to have a new thing.
• 3:06
  Speaker 1: I'd rather not be my new thing, but here we
• 3:08
  Speaker 1: are nevertheless. So yeah, so I, spinal thing, 10 days
• 3:11
  Speaker 1: in the hospital, uh, Brian Broderson, did you come see me?
• 3:15
  Speaker 1: I don't think, I don't really remember. I did. You did.
• 3:17
  Speaker 1: I did, I did, yes. Ask your wife because I
• 3:22
  Speaker 1: was there with Donna and you. Yeah. Here's the irony,
• 3:25
  Speaker 1: and this is not all kidding aside, I don't remember
• 3:28
  Speaker 1: you come seeing me. So it's, uh, there is a gap.
• 3:32
  Speaker 1: Did you come before or after the surgery?
• 3:34
  Speaker 1: Before he was there during the surgery performing the surgery,
• 3:37
  Speaker 1: he's not doing there for, so for about anything that
• 3:40
  Speaker 1: happened 4 or 5 days before the surgery is a blank,
• 3:43
  Speaker 1: is a blank to me, and they, they said that
• 3:45
  Speaker 1: they said that probably won't come back, um, you know,
• 3:47
  Speaker 1: just the, the medication just knocked out my short term.
• 3:50
  Speaker 1: But thank you for coming to see me. I, I
• 3:52
  Speaker 1: appreciate that. Did you bring me a, did you bring
• 3:54
  Speaker 1: me a gift?
• 3:55
  Speaker 1: You know, I tried to bring you some in and out,
• 3:57
  Speaker 1: but you weren't hungry. You said the hospital was feeding
• 4:01
  Speaker 1: you extraordinarily. It actually the hospital food is good. That
• 4:05
  Speaker 1: was it Hogue Newport Beach is good. Oh, Hoag is awesome.
• 4:08
  Speaker 1: Their food is awesome there, yeah, yeah. So, um, yeah, I,
• 4:12
  Speaker 1: I was there and, you know, hanging out with you
• 4:14
  Speaker 1: and Donna, and I apologize for not remembering. We even, uh,
• 4:18
  Speaker 1: we even took a picture and um I.
• 4:22
  Speaker 1: Might have it in my archive somewhere. I'll send it
• 4:23
  Speaker 1: to you if I can. I'll tell you a funny story.
• 4:25
  Speaker 1: So I had a guy. I made a phone call
• 4:27
  Speaker 1: just a couple of days before I went into the hospital, and, uh,
• 4:30
  Speaker 1: and this guy emails me a month later and says, Hey,
• 4:32
  Speaker 1: you never connected me with Joel who runs our demon program.
• 4:35
  Speaker 1: So I, um, and that's the D men, not ministry. Yes, not,
• 4:39
  Speaker 1: not the demon, um, so, so though, uh, though, so anyway, so,
• 4:44
  Speaker 1: so he's back and said, you never connected me with Joel,
• 4:45
  Speaker 1: and I said, I, I'm sorry, I don't know what
• 4:47
  Speaker 1: you're talking about, and
• 4:49
  Speaker 1: And, uh, so he says, we had like a 30-minute conversation.
• 4:52
  Speaker 1: He was joking, it was the best conversation ever in
• 4:53
  Speaker 1: my life and you don't remember any of it. So,
• 4:55
  Speaker 1: but I, I, I was the craziest thing. It is
• 4:57
  Speaker 1: just bizarre and it's, uh, you know, and I'm hoping, as,
• 5:01
  Speaker 1: as you know, Brian, I got a 30%, I got
• 5:03
  Speaker 1: a 30% chance of full recovery.
• 5:06
  Speaker 1: Um, but that's a 30% chance. That's what I'm looking
• 5:08
  Speaker 1: at now. Like, like I'm working towards it. I just had,
• 5:11
  Speaker 1: I had physical therapy again today, and I'm trying to
• 5:14
  Speaker 1: recover and, uh, 30% chance, and, but I, you know,
• 5:17
  Speaker 1: with the Lord's help, I'm hoping for a full recovery.
• 5:19
  Speaker 1: I got a dance at my daughter's wedding in June,
• 5:22
  Speaker 1: so I got, I got stuff to do, brother. I
• 5:24
  Speaker 1: got stuff to do. So how's, how's your, um, I
• 5:28
  Speaker 1: know you still have some pain, right? I mean that's
• 5:30
  Speaker 1: why I was at another doctor today, so.
• 5:32
  Speaker 1: And I'm, uh, I mean my defining problem is, is
• 5:36
  Speaker 1: just pain and it's, it's, uh, you know, it impacts
• 5:39
  Speaker 1: the rest, you know, I, I'm, it impacts walking, um.
• 5:44
  Speaker 1: But, you know, it, it's just, it's just pain and
• 5:46
  Speaker 1: it's like I've never, I've never experienced this level of
• 5:49
  Speaker 1: ongoing pain before, but, you know, I'm doing a series
• 5:52
  Speaker 1: right now. People wanna follow me on social media. I'm
• 5:54
  Speaker 1: doing a 10-day kind of, uh, I'm doing it with Lagos, uh,
• 5:58
  Speaker 1: Bible software has a reading plan. You can still join
• 6:01
  Speaker 1: if you want, and I'm just posting reflections about suffering.
• 6:04
  Speaker 1: I'm learning, the Lord's teaching me. It's actually been a,
• 6:07
  Speaker 1: I don't know, someone said the term tender time. It's
• 6:09
  Speaker 1: been a tender time.
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  Speaker 1: With the Lord in the midst of the pain. So I'm, again,
• 6:13
  Speaker 1: if you're interested, I'm at, at Ed Stetzer and all
• 6:16
  Speaker 1: the social media stuff, and I'm just sharing reflections on
• 6:19
  Speaker 1: suffering and, uh, Paul Tripp sent me his book on suffering,
• 6:22
  Speaker 1: which has been helpful. Ken Birding, one of my faculty
• 6:25
  Speaker 1: at Talbot, has a new book on suffering. Uh, you
• 6:28
  Speaker 1: can't go wrong with Johnny Erickson and Tata. But today
• 6:30
  Speaker 1: was a good day cause I mean, I, I, I
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  Speaker 1: met a doctor today who said, I think that I've
• 6:36
  Speaker 1: got some solutions, but it's funny cause what he says is,
• 6:40
  Speaker 1: You need to stop thinking that you're gonna get better, um,
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  Speaker 1: anytime soon. If we recover on if this pain goes away,
• 6:48
  Speaker 1: it's gonna be next May. So you need to.
• 6:51
  Speaker 1: You know, we don't know if it's gonna go away,
• 6:53
  Speaker 1: but I had to kind of mentally shift, but it
• 6:55
  Speaker 1: was a good meeting. It was a big, it was
• 6:57
  Speaker 1: a good meeting. But yeah, now is that, um, is
• 7:01
  Speaker 1: the pain, uh, is somehow related to any kind of
• 7:05
  Speaker 1: nerve issue? Yes, oh, it's clear, it's, it's all neurological pain. It's,
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  Speaker 1: which is the craziest pain you've ever had, like stuff hurts,
• 7:12
  Speaker 1: like my my calves hurt and they feel like they're swollen,
• 7:14
  Speaker 1: they're not swollen, it's just all mental. It's not mental,
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  Speaker 1: it's neurological.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah, and it, you know, nerve nerve pain is the
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  Speaker 1: slowest pain to recede or to heal, you know, nerves
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  Speaker 1: to heal just take.
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  Speaker 1: Forever it seems so now what about, what about mentally?
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  Speaker 1: Are you, because you know you were having some little,
• 7:36
  Speaker 1: little glitches, are you all back, all back mentally? Yeah, yeah,
• 7:39
  Speaker 1: I probably, that's one of the reasons I wasn't going
• 7:40
  Speaker 1: on a call-in show, you know, maybe I was avoiding
• 7:42
  Speaker 1: pastor's perspective because these are gonna be some hard questions.
• 7:45
  Speaker 1: So yeah, yeah. So, but you do remember signing, uh,
• 7:49
  Speaker 1: off on my doctoral thesis, right? Yes, I do wanna
• 7:52
  Speaker 1: get you to do. I, I, you know, I, I
• 7:54
  Speaker 1: had the privilege of educating you for your master's degree
• 7:56
  Speaker 1: and now.
• 7:57
  Speaker 1: I'm don't you have like honorary doctorates from places? You're
• 8:00
  Speaker 1: like Brian Broderson. You probably got an honorary doctorates. Oh no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no,
• 8:05
  Speaker 1: I'm too old for that stuff, you know. I just
• 8:07
  Speaker 1: want to agree with you. You are too old for that.
• 8:08
  Speaker 1: You were too old to do your master's degree with me,
• 8:10
  Speaker 1: but I love the fact that you decided to go
• 8:13
  Speaker 1: do a master's degree regardless of that. I love that.
• 8:17
  Speaker 1: So yeah.
• 8:18
  Speaker 1: And we had fun. We did. It was a good time.
• 8:20
  Speaker 1: It's a good time. I got another group, uh, they're
• 8:22
  Speaker 1: going to Europe and Egypt instead of Israel just because
• 8:25
  Speaker 1: it's still a little hot there. And, um, yeah, so it's, it's,
• 8:28
  Speaker 1: it's fun to, I love, I love educating groups of
• 8:31
  Speaker 1: people and you were, it was a joy to have
• 8:33
  Speaker 1: you in class.
• 8:35
  Speaker 1: There's an endorsement. Um, I wanna go to Oxford with
• 8:38
  Speaker 1: you again one of these days. So why don't you
• 8:39
  Speaker 1: go with me and, uh, come with me in, in December.
• 8:43
  Speaker 1: I'll have you teach how, you know, when, uh, when
• 8:45
  Speaker 1: Brian comes to Oxford just live here on the program,
• 8:47
  Speaker 1: he lectures for me. So, um, so Brian has lectured
• 8:51
  Speaker 1: at Oxford University. I teach a class there, and, uh, your,
• 8:54
  Speaker 1: your lecture was well received last time. You're always welcome back.
• 8:57
  Speaker 1: The problem is.
• 8:58
  Speaker 1: Like I go when you're not there. You're gonna, you're
• 9:01
  Speaker 1: in England all the time, but you're, we never overlap
• 9:05
  Speaker 1: is the, is the problem. So, and you're done, like
• 9:08
  Speaker 1: you're done organ, you're with, uh, Creation Fest. Like, is
• 9:11
  Speaker 1: that like you've started it off, it's on its own now.
• 9:14
  Speaker 1: It's on its own, yeah, wow, that's pretty cool. Yeah, yeah,
• 9:17
  Speaker 1: that's good. OK, I'll, um, I'll think about the Oxford thing.
• 9:21
  Speaker 1: I'd love to go. I heard, I heard, um.
• 9:24
  Speaker 1: Justin Briley, um, I don't, I don't know if you
• 9:28
  Speaker 1: listen to Justin's podcast at all, but he did a great, great, great, uh,
• 9:34
  Speaker 1: kind of, kind of a debate with Tom Holland and
• 9:37
  Speaker 1: Peter J. Williams on the historicity of, you know, the gospels.
• 9:41
  Speaker 1: It was fantastic. It was brilliant, um, and both Tom,
• 9:45
  Speaker 1: Tom was great. Peter was really extraordinary. Do you know Peter? Have,
• 9:49
  Speaker 1: have you had him speak?
• 9:50
  Speaker 1: I have not had, but I, but I know him,
• 9:52
  Speaker 1: and I think he's great. Uh, we've hung out, so
• 9:55
  Speaker 1: what I'd be interested, like Holland is not, I don't
• 9:58
  Speaker 1: think he identifies as a Christian. Well, he, but he's
• 10:01
  Speaker 1: sort of close, yeah, I mean, he, he identifies as
• 10:05
  Speaker 1: a cultural Christian, but he also, he's closer than that,
• 10:08
  Speaker 1: you know, and it's really interesting, uh, because I've read
• 10:11
  Speaker 1: a lot of his books and I've followed him for
• 10:13
  Speaker 1: a long time and I love his history podcast, but, uh,
• 10:16
  Speaker 1: you know, listening to him and Peter the other day,
• 10:18
  Speaker 1: I was really.
• 10:20
  Speaker 1: It was really enjoyable and Tom was very, um, yeah,
• 10:25
  Speaker 1: I mean, you know, he is, it's almost like he,
• 10:29
  Speaker 1: he doesn't quite get like faith in the sense that he,
• 10:35
  Speaker 1: it's almost like he thinks that something has to happen
• 10:37
  Speaker 1: to you, like a road to Damascus kind of a
• 10:39
  Speaker 1: thing that that's how you get.
• 10:42
  Speaker 1: Connected with Jesus, you know, you gotta have like an experience.
• 10:45
  Speaker 1: He doesn't quite get the just the simple, you know,
• 10:48
  Speaker 1: trust thing. I, I think, I mean, he's an historian, man.
• 10:51
  Speaker 1: He's an historian, and I, yeah, but he's, he's so,
• 10:54
  Speaker 1: he's so close and he's very, um, you know, basically
• 10:58
  Speaker 1: he just said, look, I'm a, I'm an all or
• 11:00
  Speaker 1: nothing guy.
• 11:01
  Speaker 1: So I'm gonna go, I'm gonna go all in. When
• 11:04
  Speaker 1: I go, I'm going, let's go, man. Let's get him.
• 11:06
  Speaker 1: Let's get him walking with Jesus, man. I wanna like
• 11:08
  Speaker 1: open that Bible. But what I was gonna say is
• 11:11
  Speaker 1: in November, uh, they're doing a similar thing. Justin's gonna
• 11:15
  Speaker 1: host him and NT Wright in a conversation with Molly Worthen.
• 11:20
  Speaker 1: So 3 historians, uh, I love Molly. Molly's a friend.
• 11:25
  Speaker 1: She's great, you know, she was not a believer. She
• 11:26
  Speaker 1: recently came to faith in Christ. She's great.
• 11:29
  Speaker 1: And her apostles, her apostles of reason, I mean, she's
• 11:32
  Speaker 1: a great historian, so yeah, yeah, yeah. So anyway, yeah,
• 11:36
  Speaker 1: all right, let's go to the phones. Ed, what's that number?
• 11:39
  Speaker 1: Oh, wait.
• 11:42
  Speaker 1: It is 888-564-6173 888-564-6173. This is a little different. So
• 11:48
  Speaker 1: like when I'm, I'm by a Zoom if people didn't
• 11:50
  Speaker 1: figure that out, but what's different is, is like I
• 11:52
  Speaker 1: don't see what you're about to ask. So it's like,
• 11:54
  Speaker 1: it's like all, it's like all in bro. Let's see you.
• 11:57
  Speaker 1: I did send you a link. If you click that's
• 12:00
  Speaker 1: all new link Roderson, I mean send me the link, but.
• 12:01
  Speaker 1: Broderson's, he's always going without a net, man. He's without
• 12:04
  Speaker 1: a net. Brian does not use that link. So we'll
• 12:07
  Speaker 1: see if, uh, I'm sure you'll be able to do
• 12:09
  Speaker 1: it too. But, uh, yeah, here we go. We're gonna
• 12:11
  Speaker 1: begin with Johnny who is calling in with a question, uh,
• 12:17
  Speaker 1: from Conway, Arkansas. Hey there, Johnny, welcome to Pastor's Perspective.
• 12:23
  Speaker 2: Uh, hey, guys. Uh, first of all, uh, Ed, so
• 12:26
  Speaker 2: glad to hear that you're, you're doing really well. Uh,
• 12:29
  Speaker 2: I've been missing you over at Mariners and missing Mariners
• 12:32
  Speaker 2: even more since I moved to Conway. Um, but, uh,
• 12:36
  Speaker 2: my question today, uh,
• 12:38
  Speaker 2: I'm not sure if you folks are familiar with Torah
• 12:41
  Speaker 2: observant Christians or Torahism, as I've heard it called. Um,
• 12:46
  Speaker 2: my in-laws are Torah observant Christians, and they hold the
• 12:52
  Speaker 2: mosaic law. They celebrate the Jewish feasts, and they also
• 12:58
  Speaker 2: wear the, the cords that the Jewish men wear.
• 13:01
  Speaker 2: Uh, but they don't like being called Jewish and they
• 13:03
  Speaker 2: don't like being called Messianic Jew. They just call themselves
• 13:06
  Speaker 2: poor observant Christians. I've tried to talk with them about
• 13:09
  Speaker 2: like what exactly they believe, but the only thing I
• 13:12
  Speaker 2: can kind of glean from what they say is that
• 13:15
  Speaker 2: they profess Jesus 100%. He's the way, the truth in life.
• 13:19
  Speaker 2: Um, but they just hold on to a lot of
• 13:21
  Speaker 2: Jewish customs. And I don't know if it's like a
• 13:25
  Speaker 2: legit thing or if it's just something to be kind
• 13:28
  Speaker 2: of hoity-toity about. Um, just kind of want to see
• 13:31
  Speaker 2: what your guys' thoughts are.
• 13:33
  Speaker 1: All right, Brian, what do you know about them?
• 13:36
  Speaker 1: Well, I, you know, I haven't heard that, ah, Torah observant,
• 13:40
  Speaker 1: but they, they said they don't want to be called
• 13:42
  Speaker 1: Messianic Jews, but, you know, historically over the last, you know,
• 13:46
  Speaker 1: 40 years or whatever, ah, the Messianic Jewish movement in
• 13:51
  Speaker 1: America has been predominantly,
• 13:54
  Speaker 1: Um, a space for Gentiles who love Jewish stuff, so
• 13:59
  Speaker 1: they go to, you know, Shabbat services and they observe.
• 14:03
  Speaker 1: So it sounds like what they're doing is pretty much
• 14:06
  Speaker 1: what the Messianic congregation, it's, it's actually it's a little
• 14:10
  Speaker 1: more than that. It's a little more than that in that, um.
• 14:14
  Speaker 1: You know, cause they don't want to be called Messianic
• 14:15
  Speaker 1: Christians because Messianic Christians would say specifically.
• 14:19
  Speaker 1: That they're under the new covenant. So I think the
• 14:23
  Speaker 1: question is, is, is, uh, is, you know, is they, are,
• 14:27
  Speaker 1: are they, um, are Torahs Christians, are they under the
• 14:32
  Speaker 1: new covenant or are they still under the old covenant?
• 14:37
  Speaker 1: I think that's, you know, that's the big distinction between
• 14:39
  Speaker 1: the two, whereas Messianic Judaism is Jewish identity and faith
• 14:42
  Speaker 1: and Jesus the Messiah.
• 14:44
  Speaker 1: Um, practice, you know, but it's kind of different, you know,
• 14:46
  Speaker 1: and I should say I have the largest master's degree
• 14:48
  Speaker 1: program in Messianic Judaism in the world and at the
• 14:51
  Speaker 1: Talbot School of Theology, so very much here. So the
• 14:53
  Speaker 1: problem is Torah absorbing Christianity is a broad category, and
• 14:57
  Speaker 1: it's focused on obedience to the Mosaic commandments. And so
• 15:02
  Speaker 1: the central question is, are Christians under the Mosaic covenant
• 15:06
  Speaker 1: or has Christ inaugurated a new covenant that changes the believers'
• 15:10
  Speaker 1: relationship to the law?
• 15:12
  Speaker 1: And I think that the distinction is, is that many
• 15:15
  Speaker 1: Torah observant Christians, I mean, Torah observing Christians sort of implies,
• 15:18
  Speaker 1: why are you observing it? Is it under this old,
• 15:22
  Speaker 1: like is it under the new and the Old Covenant
• 15:24
  Speaker 1: at the same time? It really depends upon the types
• 15:26
  Speaker 1: of Torah observant Christians, but that's the question that I
• 15:30
  Speaker 1: would ask. And you know, there's a lot here, you know,
• 15:32
  Speaker 1: think about the Jerusalem Council in Acts 15, you know,
• 15:35
  Speaker 1: Colossians 2.
• 15:36
  Speaker 1: You know, judging, preserving food festivals, new moons, and Sabbaths.
• 15:39
  Speaker 1: I mean, there's a, so I'm nervous because some Torah
• 15:44
  Speaker 1: observant Christians are not orthodox, uh, but some are. So
• 15:50
  Speaker 1: do they, for example, do they reject the Trinity or
• 15:53
  Speaker 1: the full deity of Christ, um.
• 15:55
  Speaker 1: How do they treat Paul's teachings? Cause they contradict with them,
• 16:00
  Speaker 1: some of their interpretations of the Torah. You know, those
• 16:03
  Speaker 1: are the questions that, that I would ask. I, when
• 16:05
  Speaker 1: I look at this, they're kind of remind me of
• 16:07
  Speaker 1: the Ebionites, um, one of the early Christian groups that
• 16:12
  Speaker 1: sort of kind of held on to their Judaism, uh,
• 16:15
  Speaker 1: and eventually reverted back to Judaism, and the Ebionites sort
• 16:18
  Speaker 1: of disappeared from history.
• 16:20
  Speaker 1: They're sort of tolerated by the early church, but they
• 16:22
  Speaker 1: disappear from history and they revert back into Judaism. So sorry,
• 16:24
  Speaker 1: I'm probably a little more, I don't know, negative. I
• 16:27
  Speaker 1: don't know what the right term is. Uh, I, I
• 16:29
  Speaker 1: wanna know more. I was just, uh, yeah, and I
• 16:32
  Speaker 1: was looking at it more from the standpoint of, uh,
• 16:35
  Speaker 1: you know, like with the Messianic Jews, and, and he,
• 16:38
  Speaker 1: you know, he said his in-laws are very much believers
• 16:41
  Speaker 1: in Jesus, right?
• 16:43
  Speaker 1: That's fair, and if that's the case, I mean, the
• 16:45
  Speaker 1: question is, like Torah observant Christians are believers in Jesus.
• 16:49
  Speaker 1: The question is, who is this Jesus that they believe in?
• 16:53
  Speaker 1: And again, you know, here's the thing, you and I
• 16:55
  Speaker 1: both know.
• 16:56
  Speaker 1: And you, you know, and Calvary Chapel world. I'm not
• 16:58
  Speaker 1: saying it's just, you know, you see some of this
• 17:00
  Speaker 1: Calvary Chapel world, but that whole messianic Jewish, Jewish thing,
• 17:04
  Speaker 1: there's like, again, like we have a whole master's degree
• 17:06
  Speaker 1: program this, but it does attract weird people, um, and
• 17:11
  Speaker 1: I mean, can I say that out loud? You just did.
• 17:14
  Speaker 1: But I mean, uh, you know it to be true, Broderson. So,
• 17:16
  Speaker 1: and Perez, you know too, it does attract people.
• 17:19
  Speaker 1: Who sort of end up going down a rabbit hole sometimes.
• 17:22
  Speaker 1: And I would just wanna know, like I would say
• 17:25
  Speaker 1: if you talk to, uh, Mitch Glazer, I'm gonna be
• 17:27
  Speaker 1: in New York City just a couple of weeks with
• 17:28
  Speaker 1: our whole, I'm having, you know, Shabbat gathering with them.
• 17:31
  Speaker 1: They're at the, uh, Feinberg. It's called the Feinberg Center.
• 17:35
  Speaker 1: I mean, don't miss the guy who founded, you know,
• 17:36
  Speaker 1: the founding dean of Talbot is Feinberg. It's at the
• 17:38
  Speaker 1: Feinberg Center. So, but Messianic Judaism, and they're actually Jews
• 17:44
  Speaker 1: who convert to Christianity there, but they actually have to,
• 17:47
  Speaker 1: to fence out some of the strangeness.
• 17:49
  Speaker 1: And you know, and depending on how far you go,
• 17:51
  Speaker 1: there are Yahwists and, you know, there's all, there's all
• 17:53
  Speaker 1: kinds of levels to this. So I just wanna know
• 17:56
  Speaker 1: what covenant do they think they're under, um, what do
• 17:59
  Speaker 1: they believe about Jesus? Do they hold to the, you know,
• 18:01
  Speaker 1: Nicene Creed and others? Those are the things that I
• 18:03
  Speaker 1: would wanna, wanna know.
• 18:05
  Speaker 1: What do you think, Johnny?
• 18:08
  Speaker 2: So I think that's all good. I mean, just from
• 18:10
  Speaker 2: in their house, I mean, I see a lot of, uh,
• 18:13
  Speaker 2: a lot of like scriptures from like 1 Corinthians and
• 18:16
  Speaker 2: whatnot all over the walls, and, um, so I mean,
• 18:19
  Speaker 2: I think, I don't know if they covenant, but it's just,
• 18:23
  Speaker 2: I don't know, I get the sense of hoity-toitys going
• 18:25
  Speaker 2: on with them. So I think it might be kind
• 18:26
  Speaker 2: of something like that where they want to just be apart,
• 18:29
  Speaker 2: be like, oh, I'm not evangelical. I left that movement.
• 18:32
  Speaker 2: We are now a Torah observant at
• 18:34
  Speaker 1: 15.
• 18:35
  Speaker 1: Brian, well, you know, some, some, there, there are Christians
• 18:39
  Speaker 1: who
• 18:40
  Speaker 1: Ah, OK, there's two sides to this. There's a positive
• 18:42
  Speaker 1: side where Christians just love all things Jewish, you know,
• 18:45
  Speaker 1: so anything Jewish, I mean, Hebrew, if you're gonna learn
• 18:48
  Speaker 1: a language, you gotta learn Hebrew, that's the heavenly language, and, ah,
• 18:51
  Speaker 1: you know, they just love all of that stuff. And,
• 18:53
  Speaker 1: and that's OK, uh, but you, you know, you have
• 18:56
  Speaker 1: to be careful because it's easy to drift over into
• 18:59
  Speaker 1: this idea that you can only refer to Jesus as Yeshua, and,
• 19:04
  Speaker 1: you know, you, you probably need to keep Shabbat, and
• 19:08
  Speaker 1: once you get over,
• 19:10
  Speaker 1: Over into that, then you're gonna, you're gonna get yourself
• 19:14
  Speaker 1: in trouble, and Ed, you're absolutely right, I have met
• 19:17
  Speaker 1: the weirdest people in the world, uh, who, you know, well,
• 19:22
  Speaker 1: and I would say like his family's wee and some
• 19:24
  Speaker 1: of the traditional Jewish, you know, the cords and stuff
• 19:27
  Speaker 1: like that, I mean it does sound like they've kind
• 19:29
  Speaker 1: of gone down a bit of a rabbit hole, and
• 19:30
  Speaker 1: if they think that that's required, I would be pretty concerned.
• 19:34
  Speaker 1: Yeah, if it's required then it's a problem for sure
• 19:37
  Speaker 1: because why are they doing that otherwise? I mean, but
• 19:39
  Speaker 1: you know, you know, we were in Israel together and
• 19:41
  Speaker 1: you know I have friends, Israeli friends, is the Israeli
• 19:45
  Speaker 1: that I know, the believers, they think American.
• 19:50
  Speaker 1: People who do this kind of stuff, they really seriously
• 19:53
  Speaker 1: think it's kind of nuts, you know. Well, you know,
• 19:55
  Speaker 1: I gotta remember like, it's like with Mitch Glazer at
• 19:57
  Speaker 1: the Feinberg Center, I mean, they're almost all like actual
• 20:01
  Speaker 1: converted Jews, and they sort of, they, they joke, like,
• 20:05
  Speaker 1: you know, there's a, the, the Old Testament there's, uh,
• 20:08
  Speaker 1: people fencing the law. There's kind of a fence around
• 20:10
  Speaker 1: Messianic Judaism so that they don't end up with the,
• 20:13
  Speaker 1: the kind of the dissatisfied Christians. I.
• 20:15
  Speaker 1: I gotta tell you, I had a, uh, I mean,
• 20:17
  Speaker 1: my first, the guy who first discipled, well, not my
• 20:19
  Speaker 1: first guy disciple me, but when I was first a
• 20:21
  Speaker 1: youth pastor, the pastor of the church.
• 20:24
  Speaker 1: Um, and it was a just a normal Southern Baptist
• 20:27
  Speaker 1: church I was a part of, and he eventually started
• 20:30
  Speaker 1: adopting Messianic Judaism. He just kept going down there. Now,
• 20:33
  Speaker 1: you know, calls himself rabbi, and, and I guess, again, I,
• 20:37
  Speaker 1: I mean, rabbi's fine, I'm not doing anything wrong or sinful,
• 20:39
  Speaker 1: but he just kept going and, and I would say
• 20:42
  Speaker 1: eventually left like the Ebenites did. Like if you wanna
• 20:45
  Speaker 1: Google the Ebenites, they're a fascinating case story.
• 20:49
  Speaker 1: Um, because, you know, they saw themselves as like followers
• 20:51
  Speaker 1: of Peter and followers of Jesus, and, you know, and
• 20:54
  Speaker 1: eventually they, you know, eventually they just disappear from the
• 20:57
  Speaker 1: Christian tradition. I think it was Aronnaus said, you know,
• 21:00
  Speaker 1: they're kind of weird, but we still tolerate them, and
• 21:03
  Speaker 1: it wasn't long after, they were just gone and they
• 21:04
  Speaker 1: went back into Judaism. I, you know, so I don't
• 21:06
  Speaker 1: want your family, I want your family to live under
• 21:09
  Speaker 1: the new covenant of grace that doesn't require observance of
• 21:13
  Speaker 1: the law.
• 21:14
  Speaker 1: And, and I, you know, I, of course, I, we
• 21:15
  Speaker 1: don't know all the details, but super, and thanks for
• 21:17
  Speaker 1: your comments about Mariners. So I'm actually teaching tonight. You'll
• 21:20
  Speaker 1: appreciate this, Brian Broderton. Ask me what I'm teaching on
• 21:23
  Speaker 1: tonight at Mariners Church. I know what you're teaching on.
• 21:25
  Speaker 1: You're teaching on sort of like an end time series.
• 21:28
  Speaker 1: I am, but what am, what am I specifically teaching
• 21:30
  Speaker 1: on tonight? You would love it. You want me to
• 21:32
  Speaker 1: teach on this.
• 21:34
  Speaker 1: The rapture. Exactly, exactly. I'm teaching on the rapture tonight
• 21:39
  Speaker 1: and uh it's great. We've had this huge response to it,
• 21:42
  Speaker 1: you know, it's, it's, we're doing it on the weekends,
• 21:44
  Speaker 1: but now Wednesday night we're going a little deeper and, uh,
• 21:46
  Speaker 1: and I'm talking on the rapture tonight where I would,
• 21:49
  Speaker 1: I'm going to faithfully represent your view, but my opening
• 21:54
  Speaker 1: illustration is Chuck Smith, um, and the date setting.
• 21:58
  Speaker 1: Of 1988 and then back to the rapture in 1981,
• 22:02
  Speaker 1: so that's my opening, but, OK, but just, just to
• 22:06
  Speaker 1: be clear, I mean just to be fair, you know,
• 22:08
  Speaker 1: he never, he never said that this is absolutely the date,
• 22:14
  Speaker 1: but it seemed to fit, 1948.
• 22:18
  Speaker 1: Israel's restored. This generation will not pass. 40 year generation
• 22:23
  Speaker 1: takes you to 88, and of course you know there's
• 22:25
  Speaker 1: a 7 year tribulation, so 1981, yes, but it, I
• 22:30
  Speaker 1: would believed it, to be clear, I believed it. Like I,
• 22:34
  Speaker 1: the first thing I ever heard about Chuck Smith was
• 22:36
  Speaker 1: Jesus is coming back. The raptures happened in 19. I
• 22:38
  Speaker 1: was a 4 year old Christian ready for Jesus to
• 22:41
  Speaker 1: come back. So I listen, I'm charitable towards it, but
• 22:43
  Speaker 1: at the same time it didn't happen.
• 22:46
  Speaker 1: I, I didn't only believe it, I taught it, but I,
• 22:49
  Speaker 1: but I never taught it dogmatically. It just seemed, it
• 22:52
  Speaker 1: just seemed if you take the 1948 and the 1940 years,
• 22:54
  Speaker 1: I mean, if you took all of that as like
• 22:56
  Speaker 1: this is actually what it is, it made sense, you know,
• 22:59
  Speaker 1: it just simply made sense. But then.
• 23:01
  Speaker 1: In 1982, it no longer made sense. So it's true. It's,
• 23:06
  Speaker 1: it's very easy in hindsight to say, well, we're off.
• 23:09
  Speaker 1: But then that one guy, remember that one guy, uh, Edgar,
• 23:11
  Speaker 1: Edgar Wisnut, he said Jesus come back in 198988. He
• 23:14
  Speaker 1: wrote a book, 188 Reasons Jesus. And then he didn't
• 23:18
  Speaker 1: come back in 1988, and he wrote a book. He
• 23:20
  Speaker 1: had the audacity to say, he wrote a new book,
• 23:22
  Speaker 1: 89 Reasons why Jesus is coming Back in 1989.
• 23:26
  Speaker 1: Well, he just had to add one more reason, and
• 23:28
  Speaker 1: he had another and another book, and but that first
• 23:30
  Speaker 1: one sold millions. I had copies. People giving me copies
• 23:32
  Speaker 1: of it. But, uh, no, so I'll teach on that tonight,
• 23:35
  Speaker 1: but I'm actually not, he says he mentioned Mariners. I'm
• 23:38
  Speaker 1: supposed to preach this weekend at Mariners' Church, and I
• 23:40
  Speaker 1: will tell you one of the hardest conversations I had,
• 23:43
  Speaker 1: cause I just don't, I can't stand up at, you know,
• 23:46
  Speaker 1: we have like 2 Saturday night services and 2 Thursday
• 23:48
  Speaker 1: night recordings and services.
• 23:50
  Speaker 1: And I for the first time, said, Eric and I
• 23:54
  Speaker 1: talked and we're just, Eric's a senior pastor and decided
• 23:56
  Speaker 1: like I'm not preaching. So this weekend's a little hard
• 23:58
  Speaker 1: for me to not be preaching at my church, so.
• 24:02
  Speaker 1: Hey, um,
• 24:04
  Speaker 1: What, what's the name of our caller again? I'm sorry.
• 24:07
  Speaker 1: Uh, Johnny,
• 24:09
  Speaker 1: John, are you still there, Johnny?
• 24:11
  Speaker 1: Yeah, Listening to us, Johnny, we just kind of started
• 24:14
  Speaker 1: going on ramble on. Oh, the reason is, so I
• 24:18
  Speaker 1: was at, and you, you will know this, I was
• 24:20
  Speaker 1: at Seacoast Church, uh, this past Sunday. I was at
• 24:24
  Speaker 1: the one in, uh, Somerville, so not the main campus
• 24:27
  Speaker 1: in Mount Pleasant.
• 24:28
  Speaker 1: Uh, and there was a guest speaker, maybe you know him,
• 24:31
  Speaker 1: Ed Rick Bassant, of course, yeah, Bassette Bassette, right, OK,
• 24:35
  Speaker 1: but he's in Conway, Arkansas, in Conway, Alford, he's a
• 24:37
  Speaker 1: New Life Church in Conway, A, Arkansas, sure, right, OK,
• 24:40
  Speaker 1: so anyway, just, yeah, I haven't.
• 24:43
  Speaker 1: I know Bobby Conway. I know Bobby lived in Conway, Arkansas,
• 24:46
  Speaker 1: and now I hear Conway, Arkansas like twice a day,
• 24:50
  Speaker 1: so no relation, but I will tell you like New
• 24:51
  Speaker 1: Life Church in Conway is like huge, like huge. So it's, uh,
• 24:57
  Speaker 1: one of the largest churches in America, and I think
• 24:59
  Speaker 1: I've spoken there like a long, long time ago, so
• 25:02
  Speaker 1: you know. Mhm.
• 25:04
  Speaker 2: All right, yeah, and,
• 25:05
  Speaker 2: and New, New Life is fantastic. That's actually where my
• 25:07
  Speaker 2: wife and I got plugged into, um, because it happens
• 25:10
  Speaker 2: to be like 6 minutes from our apartment.
• 25:12
  Speaker 2: Uh, I was like, let's try this place, and I
• 25:14
  Speaker 2: tried it. And coming from Mariners, you know, I tried it.
• 25:16
  Speaker 2: I'm like, oh my gosh, this feels a lot like Mariners.
• 25:19
  Speaker 2: So we were super happy that we found something that
• 25:22
  Speaker 2: felt like our home church, uh, before, but it's been great. Yeah,
• 25:25
  Speaker 2: Rick is awesome. Uh, they have a ton of groups,
• 25:29
  Speaker 2: so it's nice to meet like young married couples our
• 25:32
  Speaker 2: age to just like the first day we show up
• 25:34
  Speaker 2: and they're just giving us love and now we got
• 25:36
  Speaker 2: friends out here. So it's, it's been a great church.
• 25:39
  Speaker 1: All right, that's awesome. So I'm literally, I just texted
• 25:42
  Speaker 1: Rick right here and I said we're talking about you
• 25:44
  Speaker 1: on the radio right now and I'm gonna say, tell
• 25:47
  Speaker 1: me your name again. Is it, is it, uh, you
• 25:49
  Speaker 1: don't have to give your last name. I'm gonna tell
• 25:50
  Speaker 1: him you're, you're coming to the church and he's gonna
• 25:51
  Speaker 1: find you. Uh, yeah,
• 25:53
  Speaker 2: yeah, Johnny,
• 25:54
  Speaker 1: Johnny, Johnny, and what's your wife's first name, Johnny?
• 25:57
  Speaker 2: Uh, Leandra,
• 25:59
  Speaker 1: Johnny and Leandra, uh, are, are talking about you. So
• 26:06
  Speaker 1: Pastor Rick's gonna come look for you. Yep, I'll go
• 26:08
  Speaker 1: if he finds you. So he's a, he's a, he's
• 26:10
  Speaker 1: a good guy. Anyway, we have really like this is
• 26:13
  Speaker 1: the worst show ever. We just kind of chased five
• 26:15
  Speaker 1: rabbit holes. Poor Johnny is like, I just had a
• 26:18
  Speaker 1: simple question.
• 26:19
  Speaker 1: About Judaism, a yes or no question, yes or no question,
• 26:23
  Speaker 1: the answer is sort of, and now we're talking about
• 26:26
  Speaker 1: everything else, including texting his, his new pastor.
• 26:29
  Speaker 1: 888-564-6173 is our number. Let's take another call before the break.
• 26:34
  Speaker 1: Here is Gil in Banning listening to Kwave. What's going on, Ed?
• 26:40
  Speaker 1: Or Gil, I mean, I'm Ed, but you're Ed.
• 26:44
  Speaker 1: Hey guys, so I, my parents just recently moved in
• 26:48
  Speaker 1: with me. They don't have a retirement program or any
• 26:51
  Speaker 1: kind of supplemental income. They've been business owners and just
• 26:54
  Speaker 1: kind of, you know, went down that path without saving
• 26:58
  Speaker 1: for themselves. So now they're living with me and I
• 27:01
  Speaker 1: was just wondering like, can I, I don't know, what
• 27:04
  Speaker 1: are your thoughts of like, instead of, uh, you know,
• 27:08
  Speaker 1: contributing my tithe to the church that I attend, like,
• 27:12
  Speaker 1: I guess giving that to them.
• 27:15
  Speaker 1: Help them live on. What, what are your thoughts on that, Brian?
• 27:18
  Speaker 1: What would you say to Gil?
• 27:21
  Speaker 1: Um, well, Gil, first of all, um, and I don't,
• 27:25
  Speaker 1: I don't know if Ed and I agree on this, but, um, uh,
• 27:28
  Speaker 1: the tithe issue, um, uh, you know, I don't think
• 27:31
  Speaker 1: the New Testament requires a tithe. I think it's
• 27:35
  Speaker 1: You know, people argue for it, going back to the
• 27:38
  Speaker 1: Old Testament and, you know, bringing in New Testament verses,
• 27:42
  Speaker 1: I think.
• 27:43
  Speaker 1: From the best of my ability to understand the teaching
• 27:47
  Speaker 1: on it in the New Testament, it is basically to give,
• 27:51
  Speaker 1: and to give, um, generously, to give faithfully, to give joyfully,
• 27:55
  Speaker 1: so forth. Paul says this in the 2nd Letter to
• 27:58
  Speaker 1: the Corinthians. So, uh, just right up front, just to
• 28:02
  Speaker 1: say like, if you're locked into like a 10% thing
• 28:06
  Speaker 1: or a percentage thing, I don't think that, I personally
• 28:08
  Speaker 1: don't think that that is required in the New Testament, um.
• 28:13
  Speaker 1: I would, I would just say this as a, a
• 28:16
  Speaker 1: pastor and as a person who's totally sympathetic toward your
• 28:21
  Speaker 1: experience right now uh with your parents, um, I would
• 28:25
  Speaker 1: say that you could probably still do both. I, I think,
• 28:27
  Speaker 1: you know, you, I think it's just good and, and
• 28:30
  Speaker 1: healthy to give to the work of God, uh, through
• 28:34
  Speaker 1: a local congregation, but you decide how much you're gonna give.
• 28:38
  Speaker 1: And then you make the decision on, you know, what
• 28:41
  Speaker 1: you're going to do with your parents as well. So that,
• 28:43
  Speaker 1: that's my thought on it, Ed. I don't know if you, yeah,
• 28:45
  Speaker 1: I think what your opinion might be pretty right on.
• 28:48
  Speaker 1: I mean, I got 45 seconds, Ed. We don't know
• 28:50
  Speaker 1: his financial situation. We don't know the capacity. I mean,
• 28:54
  Speaker 1: I would, you want to be generous and you want
• 28:55
  Speaker 1: to take care of your parents. Are there ways to
• 28:57
  Speaker 1: do both of those things? I think that's something you're
• 28:59
  Speaker 1: gonna just kind of seek and seek the Lord through his.
• 29:01
  Speaker 1: Through his, uh, through his will for your life. And man,
• 29:04
  Speaker 1: thanks for the call. Let me remind everyone on the
• 29:06
  Speaker 1: other side of the break, 888-564-6173 is our number. That's 888-564-6173.
• 29:14
  Speaker 1: That is it and it is break time. So, uh,
• 29:17
  Speaker 1: we'll be right back in just a moment and we'd
• 29:20
  Speaker 1: love to hear from you. 888-564-6173 as Ed Stetzer just said,
• 29:26
  Speaker 1: you are not listening to a rerun, by the way,
• 29:28
  Speaker 1: in case you just tuned in and
• 29:29
  Speaker 1: You're hearing Ed and you're thinking, oh, Ed used to
• 29:32
  Speaker 1: be on Pastor's Perspective. This must be a rerun. He's
• 29:35
  Speaker 1: not on anymore. No, he is on and you can
• 29:38
  Speaker 1: go back and listen to the archives and find out
• 29:40
  Speaker 1: why he's been missing in action for the past several months. But, uh,
• 29:44
  Speaker 1: keep Ed in your prayers, and, uh, we'll be back
• 29:46
  Speaker 1: with more of your questions, 888-564-6173.
• 30:18
  Speaker 1: it.
• 30:20
  Speaker 1: Exactly, yeah, we are back on Pastor's Perspective 888-564-6173 with
• 30:27
  Speaker 1: Brian Broderson on today and Ed Stetzer too. Ed is
• 30:31
  Speaker 1: the dean of the Talbot School of Theology at Viola University,
• 30:34
  Speaker 1: also a teaching pastor at Mariners' Church. He'll be teaching tonight.
• 30:38
  Speaker 1: What time, Ed?
• 30:39
  Speaker 1: I think it's 7 o'clock. I'm pretty sure. You think
• 30:41
  Speaker 1: it's 7 o'clock. OK, well, you know, I don't know.
• 30:43
  Speaker 1: I gotta look, but yeah, so let's say, I don't
• 30:45
  Speaker 1: want you to be late, you know, I'd, I'd hate
• 30:47
  Speaker 1: for you to be late, especially if you're teaching spot. Like,
• 30:49
  Speaker 1: I don't know what time it is. It could be 6:30.
• 30:52
  Speaker 1: I think it's 7 o'clock. I'm looking right now. OK,
• 30:54
  Speaker 1: very good. I'll tell you before we're done. I'm teaching
• 30:55
  Speaker 1: on the rapture tonight, and I'm going to explain how
• 31:00
  Speaker 1: the rapture, nobody believed it until 18:30. That's all I'm
• 31:03
  Speaker 1: gonna explain.
• 31:05
  Speaker 1: And I promise I'm not saying that. I promise you quoted,
• 31:10
  Speaker 1: you quoted Irenaeus earlier. That's true. That's right. He's Irenaeus
• 31:15
  Speaker 1: is kind of your one early church father.
• 31:18
  Speaker 1: Not a lot. Would you admit that there's not a
• 31:19
  Speaker 1: lot of early church fathers who held to a preacher? No, I,
• 31:22
  Speaker 1: I would say there's, uh, well, yeah, but I think a,
• 31:25
  Speaker 1: a pre, yeah, I mean, we're both pre-male, so it
• 31:27
  Speaker 1: doesn't really matter. But yeah, I, I, Ireneus is probably
• 31:31
  Speaker 1: the one, but he was a pretty substantial church follower. Oh,
• 31:35
  Speaker 1: it was strong. I mean it was strong. He's, I mean,
• 31:36
  Speaker 1: if you're gonna hold the early church preacher rapture, that's
• 31:39
  Speaker 1: your guy. And of course, you know, first Thessalonians, I mean, it's,
• 31:42
  Speaker 1: it's as someone said to me, how many times does
• 31:44
  Speaker 1: the Bible have to say something for you to believe
• 31:45
  Speaker 1: it to be true, so.
• 31:48
  Speaker 1: So I believe the rapture, I just believe the rapture
• 31:50
  Speaker 1: happens after the tribulation, so like, like like Jesus and
• 31:53
  Speaker 1: all the disciples believed, except Paul.
• 32:00
  Speaker 1: All right, let's talk to Phil in San Marcos. Hey there, Phil.
• 32:05
  Speaker 1: Welcome to Pastor's Perspective. What's going on?
• 32:08
  Speaker 2: Uh, hey,
• 32:09
  Speaker 1: I'm just uh having fun listening to you guys cut
• 32:11
  Speaker 1: it up, but I just had a question about, uh,
• 32:15
  Speaker 1: how we refer to Jesus as redeemer and savior, and
• 32:19
  Speaker 1: if it's different words in Hebrew or Greek, and what
• 32:23
  Speaker 1: is the theological difference between savior and redeemer.
• 32:29
  Speaker 1: All right, Ed.
• 32:31
  Speaker 1: Start with you. Um, yeah, I mean they both have
• 32:34
  Speaker 1: theological nuances. I think you're asking about the Greek and
• 32:38
  Speaker 1: Hebrew words. So, so the Greek word, um, soter is savior, uh, rescuer,
• 32:45
  Speaker 1: sort of a rescuer, you know, think about Luke, front
• 32:48
  Speaker 1: of us, a child is born, uh, a city of David,
• 32:52
  Speaker 1: a savior who's Christ the Lord. Jesus is the savior
• 32:55
  Speaker 1: of the world. So I mean, Jesus rescues us from
• 32:59
  Speaker 1: sin and
• 33:00
  Speaker 1: Uh, consequences, so that saves rescues, whereas redeemer draws from,
• 33:07
  Speaker 1: I mean, redeeming, redemption, like you redeem a coupon, you're
• 33:10
  Speaker 1: trading something for something else. So it kind of ties
• 33:13
  Speaker 1: into the biblical ideas of ransom and liberation and being
• 33:18
  Speaker 1: purchased out of bondage. I mean, actually, Jesus in Mark 10:45.
• 33:23
  Speaker 1: He came to give his life as a ransom for many, uh, Ephesians,
• 33:27
  Speaker 1: somewhere Paul writes in him, we have redemption. That's Ephesians,
• 33:29
  Speaker 1: don't we have redemption, uh, through the forgiveness of our
• 33:33
  Speaker 1: sins as well. So there the emphasis is Jesus kind
• 33:38
  Speaker 1: of liberates us, the redeeming redemption from bondage by the
• 33:42
  Speaker 1: sacrifice of his own life. So, if I had to
• 33:44
  Speaker 1: put those two categories next to each other, savior rescues
• 33:48
  Speaker 1: us from sin.
• 33:49
  Speaker 1: Redeemer is purchase us like you redeem a slave, like
• 33:52
  Speaker 1: he purchases us our freedom from bondage, um, you know,
• 33:57
  Speaker 1: savior is delivering us.
• 34:00
  Speaker 1: Uh, and just the Greek soter in answer to your
• 34:02
  Speaker 1: earlier question, whereas redeemer is more, uh, the cost and
• 34:08
  Speaker 1: maybe means, the mechanism of our freedom, that's how he
• 34:12
  Speaker 1: has redeemed us through the forgiveness of sins. So, so
• 34:15
  Speaker 1: I think, you know, I mean, in the Old Testament,
• 34:17
  Speaker 1: it's interesting, in the Old Testament, Yahweh is both the redeemer, uh,
• 34:20
  Speaker 1: and savior. And so I, I think, um, I think
• 34:23
  Speaker 1: that it's kind of pointing us to.
• 34:25
  Speaker 1: The fullness of Christ in His saving and redeeming work.
• 34:29
  Speaker 1: What do you think, Phil?
• 34:32
  Speaker 1: I think that's awesome. Yeah, I mean, we've been saved
• 34:34
  Speaker 1: from our sins and we've been redeemed by the blood
• 34:37
  Speaker 1: of Jesus. So come on, brother.
• 34:40
  Speaker 1: Anything to add, Brian? I mean, that's a very simple.
• 34:43
  Speaker 1: Um, I, I, I guess that's how I use it,
• 34:46
  Speaker 1: but I was just wondering, you know, just wondering. I, I,
• 34:49
  Speaker 1: I drive around all day long, deliver car parts, and
• 34:52
  Speaker 1: I wait for this time of day. You know what
• 34:53
  Speaker 1: I mean? I think that's cool. I think that's cool
• 34:56
  Speaker 1: that you do that. I think it's, uh, it's nice
• 34:59
  Speaker 1: that you're able to, to listen in on radio and
• 35:01
  Speaker 1: stuff like that. I love it.
• 35:02
  Speaker 1: Yeah, and I think I wouldn't, I wouldn't add, that
• 35:05
  Speaker 1: was great. I, I wouldn't have anything really to add
• 35:07
  Speaker 1: to it, but I do think that it's one of
• 35:09
  Speaker 1: the things that's so beautiful is to take like a
• 35:13
  Speaker 1: general concept of salvation, and then, um, you know, look
• 35:19
  Speaker 1: at all of the different aspects of it, which redemption
• 35:21
  Speaker 1: is an aspect of it, and so you, you see that,
• 35:25
  Speaker 1: you know, we.
• 35:27
  Speaker 1: Um, of course, you know, we're saved, that's kind of
• 35:31
  Speaker 1: the general word, but then you have all of these
• 35:34
  Speaker 1: facets to our salvation, so it's a multifaceted thing, uh,
• 35:39
  Speaker 1: of which redemption is a part of it.
• 35:43
  Speaker 1: Thank you so much, Phil, for calling in with your
• 35:45
  Speaker 1: question at 888-564-6173. Let's, uh, read at least one question
• 35:50
  Speaker 1: that was submitted online before we go back to the phones.
• 35:52
  Speaker 1: This one through the pastor's perspective page at kwave.com. It
• 35:57
  Speaker 1: is from Burnett. She writes, My husband has walked away
• 36:01
  Speaker 1: from God. He is unchurched and does not walk as
• 36:05
  Speaker 1: a man of God. Is he still a Christian or saved? Brian,
• 36:08
  Speaker 1: what do you tell Burnett?
• 36:13
  Speaker 1: Well, that's, uh, you know, where they're just coming in
• 36:15
  Speaker 1: as a question without any ability to, you know, sort
• 36:18
  Speaker 1: of follow up on some detail, that's a, a very hard, uh,
• 36:23
  Speaker 1: question to answer because we just don't know, um, the
• 36:26
  Speaker 1: details of his life, uh, people, you know, lots of
• 36:29
  Speaker 1: people go to church who never are actually saved, they
• 36:32
  Speaker 1: just attend church, and then, you know, people go to
• 36:36
  Speaker 1: church who are saved, and that's how they end up
• 36:39
  Speaker 1: in church, but then.
• 36:40
  Speaker 1: They backslide, maybe, and so they're, they have a season,
• 36:45
  Speaker 1: maybe a long season where they're away from the Lord,
• 36:48
  Speaker 1: and in many cases they turn back to Jesus after time, so,
• 36:53
  Speaker 1: so whether he, he, you know, is saved, uh, or not, I,
• 37:00
  Speaker 1: I don't think there's any way that we can answer that. Mm.
• 37:03
  Speaker 1: And any thoughts?
• 37:05
  Speaker 1: I do not have a greater wisdom than Brian Broderson
• 37:07
  Speaker 1: on the spiritual condition. I, I, you know, I would
• 37:10
  Speaker 1: say in general that like,
• 37:12
  Speaker 1: It's kinda hard when you don't see any fruit or confession, like,
• 37:16
  Speaker 1: I mean, they're not confessing Christ and there's no fruit.
• 37:19
  Speaker 1: So I would treat that person as if they're not
• 37:21
  Speaker 1: a believer, and, you know, seek to win him by
• 37:24
  Speaker 1: our lives and more. Um, but, you know, I, I
• 37:28
  Speaker 1: think if you're looking for assurance,
• 37:31
  Speaker 1: I think it's hard to have assurance when you don't
• 37:33
  Speaker 1: have the other confession or a fruit.
• 37:36
  Speaker 1: 888-564-6173. Joanne in Rancho Cucamonga. Hi, you're next on Pastor's Perspective.
• 37:43
  Speaker 1: What's your question?
• 37:45
  Speaker 1: Hi, yes, uh, in Deuteronomy 22, 5-30, it mentions that, um,
• 37:52
  Speaker 1: clothing that, uh, we're not supposed to wear, wear, we
• 37:56
  Speaker 1: as women shouldn't wear men's clothing, nor should they wear
• 37:59
  Speaker 1: women's clothing, men. And, um, for example, I wear pants
• 38:06
  Speaker 1: and I've seen men wear earrings.
• 38:09
  Speaker 1: And I'm asking, is this still an offense to God,
• 38:13
  Speaker 1: or is there some, because of time and all of that,
• 38:17
  Speaker 1: there's been some change. Secondly, the question in Deuteronomy 23,
• 38:25
  Speaker 1: it refers to a bastard or a person that's had
• 38:29
  Speaker 1: one of their members cut off.
• 38:32
  Speaker 1: Um, that they shall not enter into the congregation of
• 38:36
  Speaker 1: the Lord. I'd like to know whether that's still standing
• 38:39
  Speaker 1: and is that something we need to honor either of
• 38:43
  Speaker 1: those things. All right, Ed, we're gonna start with you
• 38:46
  Speaker 1: on this. I did not see these questions coming today
• 38:49
  Speaker 1: just to.
• 38:50
  Speaker 1: Just to put that out there. Brian Perez, don't you have, um,
• 38:54
  Speaker 1: an earring? Don't you wear an earring? Uh, no, no, OK,
• 38:57
  Speaker 1: I don't. I, I don't remember. I can see Calvary
• 39:00
  Speaker 1: Chapel people wearing earrings. It's kind of a vibe. I,
• 39:02
  Speaker 1: at Mariner's Church, we know better than that, but I
• 39:04
  Speaker 1: could see Calvary Chapel people wearing an earring. Um, you know,
• 39:07
  Speaker 1: so I would say that, uh, that the Moses, the,
• 39:11
  Speaker 1: the law, um, is, is not, I mean, these things.
• 39:17
  Speaker 1: You know, the, the person, the, you know, the, the
• 39:19
  Speaker 1: second example is a little, I don't know, you know, I,
• 39:21
  Speaker 1: you know, I got moms in minivans driving down the
• 39:23
  Speaker 1: road right now, so I'm not quite sure how to
• 39:25
  Speaker 1: weigh in on that topic. We could just have Brian
• 39:27
  Speaker 1: answer that question if you want. Well, I just, I'm
• 39:29
  Speaker 1: not sure. I'd actually like to hear Brian. I mean, I,
• 39:31
  Speaker 1: I know his answer, but I'd like to hear him
• 39:33
  Speaker 1: sort of navigate around the moms and minivans are around.
• 39:36
  Speaker 1: So Brian, why don't you do that one first, and
• 39:37
  Speaker 1: I'll come back to the other one.
• 39:42
  Speaker 1: Wow, wow, wow, that, you know, OK, um,
• 39:47
  Speaker 1: Well, I think first of all, let's just be clear
• 39:50
  Speaker 1: that no, those things are not binding today, so this
• 39:53
  Speaker 1: was all part of God's covenant with the nation and these, these.
• 40:01
  Speaker 1: Various, you know, laws and ordinances and so forth, they,
• 40:05
  Speaker 1: they all pertain to the people of Israel at the time,
• 40:09
  Speaker 1: and they made sense in their context, but in our
• 40:13
  Speaker 1: context they might not make sense because we just don't
• 40:16
  Speaker 1: know the context. We were, we weren't, you know, there and,
• 40:19
  Speaker 1: and part of that at the time. So when it
• 40:22
  Speaker 1: comes to a person like, like in the priesthood, for example,
• 40:26
  Speaker 1: you know, there were certain, ah,
• 40:29
  Speaker 1: Things, a priest had to, because a priest was rep
• 40:32
  Speaker 1: representing the people and, and, you know, coming before God,
• 40:35
  Speaker 1: they could not have a blemish. So if they were,
• 40:39
  Speaker 1: you know, and it lists things like if they were
• 40:41
  Speaker 1: a hunchback, or if they had, um, you know, missing fingers,
• 40:45
  Speaker 1: or if they ah were lame, or, you know, there
• 40:49
  Speaker 1: there's different things that like, OK, and it wasn't because
• 40:52
  Speaker 1: God didn't love them, or it wasn't because they were, ah,
• 40:57
  Speaker 1: Cast out by God, it was because, uh, of what
• 41:01
  Speaker 1: the priest represented, and so they just, they could have
• 41:04
  Speaker 1: a relationship with God, they just couldn't hold the office
• 41:07
  Speaker 1: of a priest, and so when it comes to these
• 41:11
  Speaker 1: requirements regarding the, you know, the congregation and so forth,
• 41:15
  Speaker 1: I I I think it's the same thing, it doesn't
• 41:17
  Speaker 1: mean that they're cut off from God because of some
• 41:20
  Speaker 1: physical deformity, it just means they have limitations in.
• 41:25
  Speaker 1: The, the kind of worship they can experience. I think
• 41:28
  Speaker 1: you generalize that question rather than asking her specific, answering
• 41:32
  Speaker 1: her specific question, but I'm gonna laugh. Well, you, you
• 41:35
  Speaker 1: wanted to know how I was gonna navigate it, so
• 41:37
  Speaker 1: you just saw how I did. I was, well, well,
• 41:40
  Speaker 1: now I agree 100% with the answer to your question.
• 41:42
  Speaker 1: I would say too, I would add one thing, um,
• 41:45
  Speaker 1: about the men wearing women's clothing that.
• 41:49
  Speaker 1: You know, I do think there is a sense that they, um,
• 41:53
  Speaker 1: you know, Deuteronomy 225 is all still expressing kind of
• 41:57
  Speaker 1: an enduring.
• 41:59
  Speaker 1: Kind of theological reality that there's a, and I know Brian,
• 42:03
  Speaker 1: the Brians would agree with this, that there's a distinction
• 42:05
  Speaker 1: between men and women, um, but the, the specific conventions
• 42:11
  Speaker 1: of ancient Israelite clothing are not like binding on Christians today.
• 42:16
  Speaker 1: I mean, you know, those people were wearing robes that
• 42:17
  Speaker 1: looked like dresses, so it's like, it's sort of there. So, um,
• 42:21
  Speaker 1: you know, so, so I think, but the big picture is,
• 42:24
  Speaker 1: you know, you gotta read it in light of the
• 42:25
  Speaker 1: new covenant.
• 42:26
  Speaker 1: Um, Christians are not under the Mosaic covenant, kind of
• 42:28
  Speaker 1: an earlier question as well. But so we don't transfer
• 42:32
  Speaker 1: every Old Testament clothing regulation into Christian practice, um.
• 42:37
  Speaker 1: You know, the whole wearing, uh, was it a linen
• 42:41
  Speaker 1: and wool woven together was not allowed, but
• 42:44
  Speaker 1: But at the same time, I would say that scripture
• 42:46
  Speaker 1: does affirm a distinction between men and women, you know,
• 42:49
  Speaker 1: think back to Genesis 1:27, he created them male and female. So, um,
• 42:54
  Speaker 1: so I would say apply the principle rather than impose
• 42:58
  Speaker 1: ancient clothing rules. Um, you know, so, you know, I,
• 43:04
  Speaker 1: I do think it's, you know, men and women would, would, uh,
• 43:08
  Speaker 1: you know, do dress differently. They dress differently in our
• 43:10
  Speaker 1: cultural moment, and that's, that's,
• 43:12
  Speaker 1: That's, I think, um, appropriate and something that their principal
• 43:16
  Speaker 1: might still be at work there.
• 43:18
  Speaker 1: So Joanne, does this answer your question and uh why
• 43:21
  Speaker 1: were you asking? Is it just because like you said,
• 43:23
  Speaker 1: you wear pants and you want to make sure you're
• 43:26
  Speaker 1: in alignment with God's will?
• 43:29
  Speaker 1: Yes, that in part, but I was just, I happened
• 43:31
  Speaker 1: to be reading that, uh, yesterday in, in Deuteronomy, and
• 43:35
  Speaker 1: it kind of boggled me because I wear pants and
• 43:38
  Speaker 1: I've seen men wear jewelry, and, and, and I was
• 43:41
  Speaker 1: wondering how, how is this still, you know, but how
• 43:45
  Speaker 1: do you differentiate between what was just old custom and,
• 43:49
  Speaker 1: and patterns of that time.
• 43:52
  Speaker 1: Based, I mean, based on what's going on now, where do,
• 43:57
  Speaker 1: where are lines drawn? For example, to have a member
• 44:01
  Speaker 1: of your body cut off and they, and they say, well,
• 44:04
  Speaker 1: you can't injure the church, it seems prejudicial to me.
• 44:07
  Speaker 1: A bastard or a person that has a severe injury
• 44:11
  Speaker 1: can't enter the congregation. Don't you think that's a little
• 44:13
  Speaker 1: cruel and prejudicial, Brian?
• 44:17
  Speaker 1: Well, I think again, I think if we, if we
• 44:20
  Speaker 1: were in that context 3000 years ago, 3500 years ago, ah,
• 44:25
  Speaker 1: we would have a better understanding of that. If, if
• 44:29
  Speaker 1: you're asking me if we tried to apply that today,
• 44:31
  Speaker 1: if I think that that would be, ah, prejudicial, yes,
• 44:35
  Speaker 1: I think it would, and I, I think anybody who
• 44:37
  Speaker 1: did try to apply it today would simply be wrong,
• 44:40
  Speaker 1: because I don't think that,
• 44:41
  Speaker 1: There's any basis for doing that under the new covenant,
• 44:45
  Speaker 1: and I, I do think though that the, um, I think,
• 44:47
  Speaker 1: you know, go back a little bit to the first question, I,
• 44:50
  Speaker 1: I do think that the prohibition is really more against
• 44:53
  Speaker 1: what we would today call like transgenderism or transvestiteism, where it, it's,
• 44:58
  Speaker 1: it's a man pretending to be a woman or a
• 45:01
  Speaker 1: woman pretending to be a man, not a woman wearing pants,
• 45:06
  Speaker 1: or a man having an earring, because of course in,
• 45:10
  Speaker 1: Uh, Old Testament times, many of the men had earrings.
• 45:12
  Speaker 1: I mean, it was part of the way, um, you know,
• 45:16
  Speaker 1: the different peoples were, so I, I do think that
• 45:18
  Speaker 1: there is a, a, a reference there really more specifically
• 45:23
  Speaker 1: to what we know today. I mean, you know, when
• 45:25
  Speaker 1: you see men showing up in dresses with makeup and,
• 45:29
  Speaker 1: you know, pretending to be women, you look at that
• 45:31
  Speaker 1: and say, OK, this is, this is a problem, and
• 45:33
  Speaker 1: that problem existed back at the time as well, and
• 45:36
  Speaker 1: I think that's what God is actually prohibiting, not,
• 45:39
  Speaker 1: Um, you know, like, like Ed said, everybody kind of
• 45:41
  Speaker 1: wore dresses back in those days, so. Yeah, pants are
• 45:46
  Speaker 1: a relatively new invention. Um, you know, I would say that, um,
• 45:50
  Speaker 1: you know, the big picture is that we do tend
• 45:53
  Speaker 1: to divide things up in answer to your question about,
• 45:56
  Speaker 1: you know, how we look at the Old Testament, um,
• 45:59
  Speaker 1: and the laws. The traditional, is called a threefold distinction.
• 46:03
  Speaker 1: Is that we tend to look at things as a
• 46:05
  Speaker 1: moral law, so that's something, you know, like do not murder,
• 46:09
  Speaker 1: that's still something that we would say that continues to
• 46:12
  Speaker 1: instruct Christians. The ceremonial law, um, this is things about,
• 46:18
  Speaker 1: you know, ceremonies, religious law, purity sacrifices, uh, stuff like that,
• 46:23
  Speaker 1: that is fulfilled in Christ, so we don't.
• 46:26
  Speaker 1: We don't go back and look at the Levitical descriptions of,
• 46:29
  Speaker 1: or descriptions of the tabernacle and those things. We don't,
• 46:32
  Speaker 1: we don't have to do those things anymore. Uh, and
• 46:35
  Speaker 1: then there's a kind of a third kind, and that's
• 46:37
  Speaker 1: what we call the civil or judicial law, and that
• 46:41
  Speaker 1: governs Israel as a nation. So it's not directly binding
• 46:44
  Speaker 1: though the principles of justice are still there. So, you know,
• 46:48
  Speaker 1: but again, it's, it's, that's even, that's not always perfect, right? So,
• 46:52
  Speaker 1: but I, I do think it's helpful.
• 46:54
  Speaker 1: So what I wanna, what I wanna ask is, like,
• 46:57
  Speaker 1: when I read this, is it grounded in creation? Is
• 46:59
  Speaker 1: it something that's always gonna be true? Is it, is
• 47:02
  Speaker 1: it affirmed in the New Testament, you know, is it, um,
• 47:05
  Speaker 1: You know, is there some, what purpose does it serve?
• 47:07
  Speaker 1: So you wanna ask some questions. So I wanna encourage you,
• 47:09
  Speaker 1: this is, this is a great question. I love that
• 47:11
  Speaker 1: you're reading your Bible, and I love that you're asking
• 47:14
  Speaker 1: some of these questions. I wanna encourage you to go
• 47:16
  Speaker 1: a little bit deeper and to get, um, either a
• 47:20
  Speaker 1: Bible commentary.
• 47:22
  Speaker 1: Um, probably a best Bible commentary, a Bible dictionary might
• 47:24
  Speaker 1: not address some of these things, but you can find
• 47:27
  Speaker 1: some of this online. Like I said, I use, uh,
• 47:29
  Speaker 1: Logos Bible software, so my commentaries are mostly electronic. Uh, now,
• 47:34
  Speaker 1: but you can actually say, how do I know if
• 47:36
  Speaker 1: this is, you know, ceremonial or if this is binding
• 47:41
  Speaker 1: on me? How is it binding? What does it point
• 47:42
  Speaker 1: to the New Testament? So, I, I, what I would
• 47:45
  Speaker 1: say is you're, when you read the Bible the first
• 47:47
  Speaker 1: few times, let's see you read the Bible a few,
• 47:48
  Speaker 1: a few, 33 or 4 times through.
• 47:50
  Speaker 1: You start picking up these things, you're like, OK, what
• 47:52
  Speaker 1: is this? And that's where deeper study is just a
• 47:56
  Speaker 1: beautiful thing. And, um, and I would take some deeper study,
• 47:59
  Speaker 1: you can even listen to some sermons on it if
• 48:01
  Speaker 1: you're so inclined, uh, and all of this you can find,
• 48:03
  Speaker 1: you know, free on the internet for that matter as well.
• 48:06
  Speaker 1: Just make sure it's a trusted teacher. I bet you
• 48:08
  Speaker 1: Broderson's taught and preached on this topic, and so, you know,
• 48:12
  Speaker 1: so there's lots out there that I think is helpful.
• 48:14
  Speaker 1: Joanne, thanks for calling us today here on Pastor's Perspective, 888-564-6173.
• 48:20
  Speaker 1: We've got two calls on the board that are somewhat similar, so, nah,
• 48:24
  Speaker 1: I don't think I'm gonna put them on together necessarily,
• 48:26
  Speaker 1: but let's hear them first. Karen in Fallbrook. Hi there,
• 48:30
  Speaker 1: what is your question for us today on Pastor's perspective?
• 48:34
  Speaker 2: Um,
• 48:36
  Speaker 2: Hello. Hi, um,
• 48:39
  Speaker 2: Thank you for doing this program.
• 48:42
  Speaker 2: Um,
• 48:44
  Speaker 2: It's a hard question to answer, but it's a very
• 48:46
  Speaker 2: simple question.
• 48:48
  Speaker 2: Um, I have a health issue, and it seems like
• 48:51
  Speaker 2: God has been trying to encourage me for a long time.
• 48:55
  Speaker 2: And there was a time in my Christian life many
• 48:58
  Speaker 2: years ago when he would speak to me.
• 49:01
  Speaker 2: And I just, I just knew.
• 49:04
  Speaker 2: That it was true and I could believe it. Now
• 49:07
  Speaker 2: as I've
• 49:09
  Speaker 2: matured, so to speak.
• 49:12
  Speaker 2: It's not as easy to believe the promises.
• 49:17
  Speaker 2: And I'm, and it just like it just won't get in.
• 49:20
  Speaker 2: I keep having to.
• 49:23
  Speaker 2: It's like I need constant convincing.
• 49:27
  Speaker 2: But it's not, there isn't, um, a force behind it.
• 49:32
  Speaker 2: But it seems like I have to work at believing it,
• 49:36
  Speaker 2: and that kind of makes sense as you mature.
• 49:39
  Speaker 2: Um, anyways, I just personally wanna know how you guys
• 49:43
  Speaker 2: deal with.
• 49:45
  Speaker 2: Looking for a promise and not being able to
• 49:49
  Speaker 2: To really hear it.
• 49:51
  Speaker 1: Yeah, OK, and let me put Jasmine and Santa Ana on.
• 49:54
  Speaker 1: What did you want to know, Jasmine? Did you wanna
• 49:56
  Speaker 1: know
• 49:56
  Speaker 2: Jasmine? Um, I'm sort of a new believer to Christ,
• 50:02
  Speaker 2: and I'm finding it really easy to love Jesus, you know.
• 50:05
  Speaker 2: He was a human being who died for us, and
• 50:08
  Speaker 2: like that's amazing, but I'm finding it extremely hard to
• 50:12
  Speaker 2: love God. I'm, my question is just why does God
• 50:16
  Speaker 2: allow so much bad in this world?
• 50:19
  Speaker 1: All right, Brian.
• 50:24
  Speaker 1: Um, well, I, I wanna go back to the first, um, caller,
• 50:29
  Speaker 1: and I
• 50:30
  Speaker 1: I, I think you answered the question actually, yourself, when you,
• 50:35
  Speaker 1: when you mentioned like when you were young, a new Christian,
• 50:38
  Speaker 1: everything just seemed so easy. God said it, you believed it,
• 50:40
  Speaker 1: you felt it, it, OK, we're, we're good, it's all good.
• 50:45
  Speaker 1: And now it just doesn't seem to work that way.
• 50:47
  Speaker 1: And you said, maybe it's because you're maturing, and I
• 50:53
  Speaker 1: think that's, um, you know, you just think of how
• 50:56
  Speaker 1: you deal with children.
• 50:59
  Speaker 1: So, you know, when your child is young and you're
• 51:02
  Speaker 1: training up your child, uh, of course, you're gonna be
• 51:06
  Speaker 1: most of the time right there, you're very present to
• 51:10
  Speaker 1: uh take care of the situation. I spent the day
• 51:12
  Speaker 1: with my 16 month old granddaughter, and, you know, the
• 51:16
  Speaker 1: moment she makes a peep, I'm, I'm right there to.
• 51:19
  Speaker 1: To relieve her distress, whatever it is, to get her
• 51:22
  Speaker 1: whatever she wants, you know, because she's just a little
• 51:26
  Speaker 1: baby and she doesn't have any capacity of her own
• 51:29
  Speaker 1: to do that stuff. Ah, but then I have a
• 51:32
  Speaker 1: six year old grandson who I am going to, um,
• 51:37
  Speaker 1: do similar things for him, but I'm gonna do them differently.
• 51:39
  Speaker 1: Then I have a 20-year-old grandson, and I'm gonna do
• 51:42
  Speaker 1: things way differently with him because of his age, and
• 51:46
  Speaker 1: I think that.
• 51:47
  Speaker 1: In our lives as Christians in those earliest days, we're
• 51:51
  Speaker 1: just like little babies, just kind of, you know.
• 51:55
  Speaker 1: Waddling around here and there, falling over, the Lord's right there,
• 51:58
  Speaker 1: he picks us up, he assures us it's all great,
• 52:01
  Speaker 1: and we move on, but then as we get older, um,
• 52:05
  Speaker 1: the Lord starts to treat us a little bit more
• 52:07
  Speaker 1: like adults and give us, you know, force us into, uh,
• 52:11
  Speaker 1: I wanna say independence, it's not really independence because God
• 52:14
  Speaker 1: always wants us depending on him.
• 52:16
  Speaker 1: But he wants us depending on him, not because we
• 52:19
  Speaker 1: always feel good things, he wants us depending on him
• 52:22
  Speaker 1: because he is dependable, and we're, we've begun to learn that, so.
• 52:28
  Speaker 1: You have a 20 year old grandson.
• 52:31
  Speaker 1: I have a 25 year old grandson as well. You
• 52:34
  Speaker 1: are so old. Like, I just wanna say.
• 52:39
  Speaker 1: Dude, I just turned 60 and like I'm walking around
• 52:42
  Speaker 1: on a cane, so I don't, you know, I, I
• 52:43
  Speaker 1: can't say I shouldn't be saying that you're old, but um, yeah,
• 52:46
  Speaker 1: cause I'm not on a cane. That's true, that's true,
• 52:49
  Speaker 1: and I, I, uh, anyway, I'd love to get that
• 52:51
  Speaker 1: off of that, but, um, yeah, so, so I love
• 52:55
  Speaker 1: these questions. Like, I mean, what a great trying to
• 52:59
  Speaker 1: wrestle through all sorts of stuff and you know, the
• 53:01
  Speaker 1: second question was, why is there bad in the world?
• 53:03
  Speaker 1: Can I just say, man, I'm, I, I get it, man. I'm,
• 53:05
  Speaker 1: I have a
• 53:07
  Speaker 1: You know, people ask me about my, my physical situation.
• 53:10
  Speaker 1: Now I apologize for bringing it up again, but it
• 53:12
  Speaker 1: is sort of like very pertinent to the question. Like,
• 53:15
  Speaker 1: I didn't do anything to cause this. I wasn't unhealthy. I,
• 53:20
  Speaker 1: people ask, I, I started, started having difficulties when I
• 53:22
  Speaker 1: was hiking. Um, I lost 100 pounds in the last
• 53:26
  Speaker 1: 6 years, and, and now, I get struck with this
• 53:31
  Speaker 1: rare thing that
• 53:34
  Speaker 1: Like, like, impacts my ability to walk and hike. Like,
• 53:37
  Speaker 1: here I am just loving the Lord's outdoors and my
• 53:42
  Speaker 1: physical ability is significantly limited. And again, there's no sin
• 53:47
  Speaker 1: that caused this. There's nothing I did physically. It's just rare,
• 53:50
  Speaker 1: some spine, some artery detaches, attaches to the vein, crushes
• 53:53
  Speaker 1: my spine. So,
• 53:55
  Speaker 1: So, you know, I've had to think a lot about this, and,
• 53:57
  Speaker 1: and I, it's been interesting cause I think it would
• 53:59
  Speaker 1: be harder if it happened to someone in my family.
• 54:02
  Speaker 1: Um, but I really just leaned on the Lord and
• 54:05
  Speaker 1: I just recognized why is there suffering because we live
• 54:08
  Speaker 1: in a, a fallen world, you know, Genesis 3, you know,
• 54:11
  Speaker 1: sin enters the story and now, Ed, really quick, and
• 54:14
  Speaker 1: not to interrupt, but only because we're running out of time, uh,
• 54:17
  Speaker 1: something I wanted to clear up with Jasmine's question and
• 54:19
  Speaker 1: she was saying, you know, she loves Jesus, but she
• 54:20
  Speaker 1: can't understand why God is so, you know, mean, and
• 54:24
  Speaker 1: you know, we've heard that story before, that, that question before,
• 54:27
  Speaker 1: so I can, can you.
• 54:29
  Speaker 1: Get into that and we got about a, I'll give
• 54:31
  Speaker 1: you about a minute. OK, so no worries. Um, yeah,
• 54:33
  Speaker 1: so I would say that, you know, the assumption that
• 54:35
  Speaker 1: God is mean usually is because of the actions in
• 54:37
  Speaker 1: the broken world, and I don't think God's mean. I
• 54:40
  Speaker 1: think the world's broken, and God chooses not to intervene
• 54:44
  Speaker 1: in every situation and the brokenness continues to impact everything
• 54:48
  Speaker 1: that we do. So I don't think God remains distant though.
• 54:51
  Speaker 1: This is where God's not mean. I think he's
• 54:54
  Speaker 1: This is where Christianity is distinctive. The Christian answer to
• 54:56
  Speaker 1: suffering is not just philosophical, it's Christological. Jesus the Christ
• 55:01
  Speaker 1: is near to us. Isaiah 53, we got the suffering
• 55:05
  Speaker 1: servant as the man of sorrows acquainted with grief, and
• 55:08
  Speaker 1: he Hebrews 5:4:15 says he sympathizes sympathizes with our weaknesses.
• 55:13
  Speaker 1: So the cross tells us that Jesus enters the suffering.
• 55:17
  Speaker 1: And that to me and the resurrection shows that the
• 55:19
  Speaker 1: suffering doesn't have the final word, so that to me
• 55:22
  Speaker 1: speaks of the nearness of God in the midst of
• 55:23
  Speaker 1: that suffering. Karen, oh, go ahead, Brian. Of course the,
• 55:27
  Speaker 1: the incarnation shows us that it's actually God who does
• 55:31
  Speaker 1: the suffering. So it's not, you know, Jesus is the
• 55:35
  Speaker 1: nice guy and then God's mean letting everybody suffer.
• 55:40
  Speaker 1: The God that we're talking about became a human in
• 55:43
  Speaker 1: the person of Jesus. Great episode of Pastor's Perspective, we're
• 55:47
  Speaker 1: out of time, but Karen and Jasmine, sorry that we
• 55:49
  Speaker 1: kind of rushed with you guys, so if you want
• 55:51
  Speaker 1: to call back tomorrow, we can have this conversation again.
• 55:54
  Speaker 1: God bless you all. Ed Stetzer, great to see you.
• 55:56
  Speaker 1: Pastor Brian, good to see you too, here on Pastor's Perspective.