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Murder In Moscow: DNA Expert CeCe Moore Discusses The IGG Process · Beyond The Horizon

• 0:00
  Speaker 1: What's up everyone and welcome back to the program. In
• 0:03
  Speaker 1: this episode we're going to head back up to Moscow
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  Speaker 1: and we're going to talk a little bit more about
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  Speaker 1: the IGG retrieval and about the tactics used by the FBI.
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  Speaker 1: Now this has been a big point of contention for
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  Speaker 1: Brian Kohlberger and his team. They've been saying from the
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  Speaker 1: very beginning that Brian Kohlberger's rights have been trampled upon
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  Speaker 1: and that his constitutional rights have been thrown out the window.
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  Speaker 1: But the truth is, while the tactics used by the
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  Speaker 1: FBI do fall into a bit of a gray area,
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  Speaker 1: they did not do anything illegal, and certainly haven't stepped
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  Speaker 1: on this man's constitutional rights when it comes to the
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  Speaker 1: IGG information. Now, according to Kohlberger's team, they're going to
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  Speaker 1: say that the sheath was planted by another suspect, somebody else.
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  Speaker 1: Who that other person is? Well, your guess is as
• 0:51
  Speaker 1: good as mine. Maybe it's a chupacabra. Maybe it's Bigfoot.
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  Speaker 1: Maybe it's Nosferatu. It's anybody but Brian Kohlberger, at least
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  Speaker 1: according to his team. Today's article is from Fox News
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  Speaker 1: and the headline, Brian Kohlberger Case. FBI's DNA tactics didn't
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  Speaker 1: violate law, but they raise another public safety concern. This
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  Speaker 1: article was authored by Michael Ruiz. With great investigative power,
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  Speaker 1: genetic genealogists have a great responsibility to conduct themselves ethically...
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  Speaker 1: to preserve a system that is entirely reliant on public
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  Speaker 1: participation to solve violent crimes, according to C.C. Moore, a
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  Speaker 1: pioneer of the industry and chief genetic genealogist at Parabon Nanolabs. Like,
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  Speaker 1: I've never understood why anybody would send their genetics to
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  Speaker 1: one of these companies. You don't know if it's safe.
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  Speaker 1: You don't know what they're going to do with it.
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  Speaker 1: I mean, the way they sell our information on the internet,
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  Speaker 1: you're going to be comfortable sending your DNA to one
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  Speaker 1: of these companies? I mean, God bless, if that's something
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  Speaker 1: you want to do, great. Me, personally? Never going to happen.
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  Speaker 1: The use of investigative genetic genealogy to solve violent crimes
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  Speaker 1: has overwhelming public support, she said, but privacy concerns are
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  Speaker 1: still an issue in cases like the University of Idaho
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  Speaker 1: student murder suspect Brian Kohlberger's, where the FBI accessed two
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  Speaker 1: databases that purport to exclude law enforcement from their services.
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  Speaker 1: As a result, unwitting users could be submitting clues that
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  Speaker 1: lead detectives to their own relatives without knowing it. I
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  Speaker 1: don't think that's a good enough argument, honestly. And the
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  Speaker 1: second that you upload your information to one of these databases, well,
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  Speaker 1: what's so different than sending a phone call out and
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  Speaker 1: it getting captured by Apple and then the authorities using
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  Speaker 1: that information against you? What's the difference? If you don't
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  Speaker 1: want your information out there, don't put it out there.
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  Speaker 1: Pretty simple in my opinion. Transcripts unsealed of a closed-door
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  Speaker 1: hearing on the defense attempt to have DNA evidence thrown
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  Speaker 1: out of court revealed that the FBI violated a Department
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  Speaker 1: of Justice interim policy and terms of the service of
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  Speaker 1: the two private database agents turned to after the smaller ones,
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  Speaker 1: Family Tree DNA and GED Match Pro, didn't pan out.
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  Speaker 1: So that was the whole entire genesis of the argument
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  Speaker 1: for Kohlberger, right? There was an interim policy in place.
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  Speaker 1: And you didn't follow the guidelines of the companies. Well,
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  Speaker 1: I hate to break the news to Mr. Koberger, but
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  Speaker 1: the FBI, they pretty much do what they want. And
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  Speaker 1: if there's a way that they can skirt around a
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  Speaker 1: law or a procedure or a guideline, they're going to
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  Speaker 1: do it. You have to remember that they have armies
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  Speaker 1: of lawyers that are going to show up and say
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  Speaker 1: that you can do this, you can do that, you
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  Speaker 1: can't do this. Well, this is gray area and we'll
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  Speaker 1: win here. And that's exactly what happens. It's not just
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  Speaker 1: like some FBI agent is sitting around on his own.
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  Speaker 1: There's a whole bureaucracy here, and a lot of people
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  Speaker 1: come in to make these decisions. And if we want
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  Speaker 1: to codify this into law, that the police or FBI
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  Speaker 1: can't access these databases, then we need to make it
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  Speaker 1: a law. But just turning it into an interim policy,
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  Speaker 1: that's not going to cut it. Our policy is to
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  Speaker 1: stick with just those databases because of the concern that
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  Speaker 1: the public could turn against this tool, Moore said, explaining
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  Speaker 1: why her team at the private lab avoids doing what
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  Speaker 1: the FBI did. We didn't want to just solve one
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  Speaker 1: case and lose out on being able to use this
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  Speaker 1: for potentially hundreds of thousands of millions of cases in
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  Speaker 1: the future. And that's certainly a legitimate concern, no doubt
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  Speaker 1: about it. But when we're talking about a situation like this,
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  Speaker 1: where we have the information in the database and that
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  Speaker 1: information is found by the investigators, I don't really think
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  Speaker 1: there's any kind of argument that could be made. Now,
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  Speaker 1: you can make the loopholes and technicalities argument all you want.
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  Speaker 1: But as we've seen, the court is not very receptive
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  Speaker 1: to it. You have to have something behind it, right?
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  Speaker 1: Some kind of legal precedent, something to back it up.
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  Speaker 1: And if you don't have that, chances are it's going
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  Speaker 1: to get slapped down in court like we've seen here.
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  Speaker 1: And I think that any kind of move here by
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  Speaker 1: Koberger's team to try and say that the sheath was
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  Speaker 1: planted is going to be met with the same kind
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  Speaker 1: of force. You're going to have to prove that. Now,
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  Speaker 1: of course, the burden of proof is on the state.
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  Speaker 1: There is zero doubt. But if you come in making
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  Speaker 1: all these crazy claims as the defendant, you're going to
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  Speaker 1: have to have something to back that up. You can't
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  Speaker 1: just say whatever you want, right? I mean, you can,
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  Speaker 1: but the jury is going to expect some kind of
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  Speaker 1: concrete corroboration, something to back up what you're saying. Because
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  Speaker 1: as of right now, what it looks like to everybody
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  Speaker 1: out here, but a few people, is that that sheath
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  Speaker 1: has Brian Kohlberger's DNA on it, and it was under
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  Speaker 1: the body of a dead girl. So until you can
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  Speaker 1: explain that, well, good luck. And I don't think trying
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  Speaker 1: to say that it was planted is an explanation that
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  Speaker 1: anybody's really going to believe. The FBI declined to comment
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  Speaker 1: and instead pointed to Judge Stephen Hippler's February 17th order
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  Speaker 1: in which he wrote that investigators had not violated Kohlberger's
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  Speaker 1: constitutional rights or broken any laws when they uploaded samples
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  Speaker 1: to MyHeritage.com NGED match without the pro. And now, of course,
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  Speaker 1: Koberger's only hope is on appeal. This is settled. There's
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  Speaker 1: no appealing this with Judge Hippler. This is what it
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  Speaker 1: is now. And his only hope as far as, you know,
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  Speaker 1: getting this stuff thrown out eventually is on appeal. But
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  Speaker 1: considering what we've seen previously and considering how many judges
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  Speaker 1: have already had a look and all of them have
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  Speaker 1: come to the same conclusion. So I don't think even
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  Speaker 1: on appeal, Brian Koberger is going to have any success here.
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  Speaker 1: This is not the first case where this has been
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  Speaker 1: brought up, more told Fox News Digital. It's not the
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  Speaker 1: first case where a judge has weighed in on this
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  Speaker 1: question and made a similar ruling because legality and company's
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  Speaker 1: own terms of service are not the same thing. And
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  Speaker 1: so that is how the FBI is able to legally
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  Speaker 1: use a non-consented database. And the irony is not lost
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  Speaker 1: on me. The man who is using loopholes and technicalities
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  Speaker 1: as a strategy is having that same exact strategy turned
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  Speaker 1: on him when it comes to this situation with the
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  Speaker 1: FBI going into the database. They're using loopholes, they're using technicalities,
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  Speaker 1: and they're using gray area. I believe over in the UK,
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  Speaker 1: the saying is, turnabout is fair play. Four University of
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  Speaker 1: Idaho students were stabbed to death in their home on
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  Speaker 1: November 13th, 2022. Madison Mogan, Kaylee Gonsalves, Zanna Kernodal, and
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  Speaker 1: Ethan Chapin. Under Mogan's body, police found a knife sheath
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  Speaker 1: that helped crack the case. It had a DNA sample
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  Speaker 1: on it. The sample did not match anyone in the
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  Speaker 1: FBI's National Criminal Database, nor did it match anyone in
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  Speaker 1: two small genealogy databases that share their material with law enforcement.
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  Speaker 1: And whenever you commit a crime, you get added to
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  Speaker 1: something called CODIS, and that is a database where the
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  Speaker 1: police can find out, you know, who you are, what
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  Speaker 1: you've done before, etc., etc., Well, Brian Koberger had never
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  Speaker 1: committed a crime that we know about previously, so he
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  Speaker 1: wasn't part of CODIS. So when they put his DNA
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  Speaker 1: in there, they didn't find anything. And that's why they
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  Speaker 1: moved on to the other procedures that we saw here.
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  Speaker 1: So the FBI checked two other publicly accessible databases that
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  Speaker 1: ultimately led them to Koberger, who was first identified as
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  Speaker 1: a person of interest on December 19th, 2022, and arrested
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  Speaker 1: on December 30th, 2022. If investigators hadn't turned to IGG,
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  Speaker 1: a suspect may have never been apprehended. They'd spent weeks
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  Speaker 1: with no solid leads, although Kohlberger was studying for a
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  Speaker 1: PhD in criminology at Washington State University, just 10 miles
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  Speaker 1: from the crime scene. He had driven home to his
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  Speaker 1: parents in Pennsylvania before he was arrested. And if you
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  Speaker 1: remember the frantic search for Kohlberger right after this, or
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  Speaker 1: for the alleged killer, it was insane. You had people
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  Speaker 1: talking all kinds of crazy stuff. Meanwhile, this dude was what, 2,000
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  Speaker 1: miles away in Pennsylvania? Remember how scared everybody was up
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  Speaker 1: in Moscow? People pulling their kids out of school, people
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  Speaker 1: getting karate training, people buying guns, people walking around with mace,
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  Speaker 1: all kinds of stuff. The more violent crimes I've been
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  Speaker 1: working and seen, the incredibly negative impact it has on
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  Speaker 1: surviving victims, their families, and society as a whole, I
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  Speaker 1: can really see both sides now, a lot more than
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  Speaker 1: I did when I first started working with law enforcement,
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  Speaker 1: Moore said. There's certainly a part of me that is
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  Speaker 1: supportive of doing everything we can within the law to
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  Speaker 1: stop these people in their tracks. And that's what I
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  Speaker 1: was saying before. Look, if you don't want this to happen,
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  Speaker 1: codify a law. Put something on the books that says
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  Speaker 1: you cannot do this. But until then, this is going
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  Speaker 1: to be a resource that's being used by the authorities
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  Speaker 1: to try and help solve these crimes. In essence, law
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  Speaker 1: enforcement is allowed to go anywhere the public can, Moore said,
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  Speaker 1: even though the individual database terms of service may say
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  Speaker 1: that detectives need to stay out. they aren't violating the
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  Speaker 1: law by going in anyway. The concern among critics, however,
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  Speaker 1: is that law enforcement could risk dissuading members of the
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  Speaker 1: public from participating in genetic genealogy testing over concerns that
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  Speaker 1: their data could be taken behind their backs, despite companies
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  Speaker 1: claiming it's protected. Many users want to trace their family trees,
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  Speaker 1: not necessarily help solve crimes, and I get that. But unfortunately,
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  Speaker 1: you have to be very, very careful. What we want
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  Speaker 1: and what we get are usually two very different things,
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  Speaker 1: as I am sure that most of you out there
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  Speaker 1: are well aware. The two largest databases, 23andMe and AncestryDNA,
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  Speaker 1: don't face this issue because they don't allow copied files
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  Speaker 1: of DNA samples to be uploaded. They require them to
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  Speaker 1: come directly from a source, a highly accurate sample from
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  Speaker 1: a cheek swab. That kind of sample typically doesn't exist
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  Speaker 1: in the early stages of a case where police turned
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  Speaker 1: to IgG, usually with something collected from a crime scene.
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  Speaker 1: So far, the method, continue to show strong public support,
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  Speaker 1: Moore said. Most people out there want us to use
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  Speaker 1: this tool to stop violent criminals, she told Fox News Digital.
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  Speaker 1: I believe it was 91% of the people that we
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  Speaker 1: surveyed who said that they want it used for this purpose,
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  Speaker 1: and I was surprised how many people even wanted it
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  Speaker 1: used for lesser crimes. Look, I'm all for it. Until
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  Speaker 1: they have some kind of law on the books, then
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  Speaker 1: people should be able to access this, including law enforcement.
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  Speaker 1: And remember, when this all first started, I told you
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  Speaker 1: that it was a go-nowhere issue for Kohlberger. This is
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  Speaker 1: settled law. We've seen this already. There is precedent for
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  Speaker 1: them to use this technology to go after people that
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  Speaker 1: they're investigating. And while Ann Taylor certainly gets a nod
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  Speaker 1: of the cap for trying, it was never going to
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  Speaker 1: go anywhere. And I think that until they codify something,
• 11:47
  Speaker 1: you're going to see a lot more of this. And
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  Speaker 1: as far as we're concerned up here in Moscow, you're
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  Speaker 1: going to be hearing a whole lot more about the
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  Speaker 1: IgG stuff as we move forward. Make no mistake, because
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  Speaker 1: pretty much the whole entire thing hinges on this IgG
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  Speaker 1: information and this DNA. So, like usual, we'll continue to
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  Speaker 1: keep an eye on things, and as more information becomes available,
• 12:08
  Speaker 1: we'll get it added to the catalog. If you'd like
• 12:11
  Speaker 1: to contact me, you can do that at bobbycapucci at protonmail.com.
• 12:15
  Speaker 1: That's B-O-B-B-Y-C-A-P-U-C-C-I at protonmail.com. Or if you prefer, you can
• 12:20
  Speaker 1: find me on X at B-O-B-B-Y underscore C-A-P-U-C-C-I. All of
• 12:26
  Speaker 1: the information that goes with this episode can be found
• 12:30
  Speaker 1: in the description box.