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Agents Giants Horses and Helmets · Rosters to Rings Podcast

• 0:04
  Speaker 1: Hello, and welcome back to Rosters to Rings everyone. I
• 0:07
  Speaker 1: am Ryan McDonough, joined as always by fad Levine. As usual,
• 0:11
  Speaker 1: we have an action pack show for you guys. Today
• 0:13
  Speaker 1: we're going to have on Jeff Berry, longtime Major League
• 0:16
  Speaker 1: Baseball player agent, now a senior advisor to the San
• 0:19
  Speaker 1: Francisco Giants.
• 0:21
  Speaker 2: But that where I want to start this show with you.
• 0:23
  Speaker 1: As we record this show the second week in July,
• 0:27
  Speaker 1: NBA free agency has flared up and then quieted down
• 0:30
  Speaker 1: at least a little bit. We have some restricted free
• 0:32
  Speaker 1: agents still in limbo. The summer league's about to get
• 0:35
  Speaker 1: underway in Las Vegas. But on the Major League Baseball side,
• 0:39
  Speaker 1: we sure certainly have things heating up. The trade deadline
• 0:43
  Speaker 1: is just a few weeks away at this point, and
• 0:45
  Speaker 1: that where I want to start this show is with
• 0:47
  Speaker 1: a listener question. This is from Michael Morris in Washington,
• 0:51
  Speaker 1: d C. I think was a little bit surprised at
• 0:54
  Speaker 1: the changes the Washington Nationals made over this past weekend,
• 0:57
  Speaker 1: just after the fourth of July holiday, they announced it
• 1:00
  Speaker 1: David Martinez the manager, and Mike Rizzo, the longtime general
• 1:04
  Speaker 1: manager who was there for sixteen years, including the World
• 1:07
  Speaker 1: Series Championship just a few years back, those guys were dismissed.
• 1:11
  Speaker 1: So that what do you think of the Nationals' moves
• 1:13
  Speaker 1: and specifically the timing of those moves, which seemed a
• 1:17
  Speaker 1: little bit unusual to me.
• 1:19
  Speaker 3: Well, you know, Ryan, I feel as if if any
• 1:21
  Speaker 3: of us had a retrospective on our careers, it probably
• 1:24
  Speaker 3: wouldn't be that flattering. So I'm going to try to
• 1:26
  Speaker 3: be as objective as I can and just evaluating Mike
• 1:29
  Speaker 3: Rizzo's sixteen years with the Washington Nationals and Davy Martine's
• 1:33
  Speaker 3: tenure there. So, during Mike's sixteen years, he inherits a
• 1:38
  Speaker 3: team that was really atrocious. They picked first in the
• 1:41
  Speaker 3: draft his first two years. He takes that team to
• 1:44
  Speaker 3: the playoffs five times, they win the division, the NL East,
• 1:48
  Speaker 3: which is extremely challenging competitive division, four times, and they
• 1:52
  Speaker 3: win the World Series in twenty nineteen. One thing I
• 1:55
  Speaker 3: think that is of real note, and this may have
• 1:57
  Speaker 3: impacted his tenure. There is typically in Major League Baseball,
• 2:01
  Speaker 3: as I'm sure it is in the NBA and the
• 2:02
  Speaker 3: NFL and other professional sports, when you go to the
• 2:05
  Speaker 3: World Series, let alone win it, usually season tickets spike
• 2:09
  Speaker 3: for the next couple seasons. When you win it in
• 2:12
  Speaker 3: twenty nineteen and then COVID prevents anybody from watching baseball
• 2:16
  Speaker 3: games in twenty twenty, the Washington Nationals never really got
• 2:19
  Speaker 3: that benefit of the revenue spike. So I do think
• 2:22
  Speaker 3: that is worth noting as we evaluate Mike's career, I
• 2:25
  Speaker 3: reference the fact that they picked first in two thousand
• 2:28
  Speaker 3: and nine in twenty ten, his first two years as GM,
• 2:31
  Speaker 3: And as you and I've talked about, Ryan, not all
• 2:34
  Speaker 3: drafts are created equal. Sometimes there's not really a consensus
• 2:37
  Speaker 3: one to one. But there were those two years he
• 2:39
  Speaker 3: got to pick Steven Strasburg and Bryce Harper, two guys
• 2:43
  Speaker 3: Bryce Harper, who's who's highly likely to be a Hall
• 2:46
  Speaker 3: of Famer, as Steven Strasburg, who was on a Hall
• 2:48
  Speaker 3: of Fame trajectory prior to a career ending injury. In
• 2:52
  Speaker 3: twenty eleven, he backs up those two picks by taking
• 2:54
  Speaker 3: Anthony rendonin sixth. Overall, as a point of reference, those
• 2:58
  Speaker 3: three players combined in their tenure with the Washington Nationals
• 3:01
  Speaker 3: to accumulate ninety war which is an exceptional accomplishment. Unfortunately,
• 3:08
  Speaker 3: in contrast, in the last ten years, Mike Rizzo's drafts
• 3:11
  Speaker 3: with the Washington Nationals have accumulated a total of twenty
• 3:15
  Speaker 3: war as entire draft classes, and that would rank twenty
• 3:18
  Speaker 3: eighth in Major League Baseball. Furthermore, ever since taking Anthony
• 3:22
  Speaker 3: Rendon first in twenty eleven, his first round picks from
• 3:27
  Speaker 3: that date to this have accumulated combined negative war so
• 3:31
  Speaker 3: they have not done as well in the draft after
• 3:34
  Speaker 3: that nine two thousand and nine to ten and eleven seasons. Furthermore,
• 3:39
  Speaker 3: you start looking at some of the trades they made
• 3:41
  Speaker 3: in twenty twenty one, two years after winning the World Series,
• 3:44
  Speaker 3: they famously traded Max Scherzer and Trade Turner to the
• 3:47
  Speaker 3: Los Angeles Dodgers, and at the time, they got four
• 3:50
  Speaker 3: prospects back, two of whom were kind of lottery picks
• 3:53
  Speaker 3: who didn't pan out, two of whom they really hoped
• 3:55
  Speaker 3: were going to be a top of the rotation starter.
• 3:58
  Speaker 3: In Josiah Gray, over four seasons, he's accumulated about two
• 4:02
  Speaker 3: point eight or in a franchise middle of the order bat,
• 4:05
  Speaker 3: and kayber Ruiz as a catcher over six seasons, he's
• 4:08
  Speaker 3: accumulated four point six wars, So those guys haven't quite
• 4:11
  Speaker 3: panned out to be what they had inspired them to be.
• 4:15
  Speaker 3: In twenty twenty two, though, Jim Bowden credits him for
• 4:18
  Speaker 3: making the herschel Walker version of a Major League Baseball
• 4:22
  Speaker 3: trade when he traded Juan Soto to the San Diego Padres.
• 4:26
  Speaker 3: He nets three guys will be playing in the twenty
• 4:28
  Speaker 3: twenty five All Star Game, Mackenzie Gore, James Wood and
• 4:31
  Speaker 3: c J. Abrams In in addition a very interesting minor league
• 4:35
  Speaker 3: hitting prospect in Robert Hassel and a great arm in
• 4:39
  Speaker 3: Harlan Susannah. So that trade has a chance to still
• 4:42
  Speaker 3: bear a lot of dividends for the franchise. That was
• 4:45
  Speaker 3: probably the crown jewel of Mike's moves while he was
• 4:49
  Speaker 3: there as a as a general manager.
• 4:51
  Speaker 1: Yeah, that I was going to look at the payroll
• 4:53
  Speaker 1: because that's one of the things, you know, we'll talk
• 4:55
  Speaker 1: about here in a minute, and you know my personal
• 4:58
  Speaker 1: philosophy on it. I think the role structure in Major
• 5:00
  Speaker 1: League Baseball top to bottom is way too broad. We
• 5:03
  Speaker 1: went over in a recent episode. But the La Dodgers,
• 5:06
  Speaker 1: you know, way at the top, Miami Marlins at the bottom,
• 5:09
  Speaker 1: a lot of room in the middle. So where did
• 5:11
  Speaker 1: Washington fit in the thirty team payroll? Structure, and how
• 5:13
  Speaker 1: do you think that factors in as we evaluate the
• 5:16
  Speaker 1: performances of Mike Rizzo and Davey Martinez. I don't think
• 5:20
  Speaker 1: you can separate them, Ryan, as you've talked about multiple
• 5:23
  Speaker 1: times in our shows, you really can't separate the payrolls
• 5:27
  Speaker 1: from the teams. You can't separate the contracts from the players.
• 5:31
  Speaker 1: Leading up to the World Series in twenty seventeen, they
• 5:33
  Speaker 1: ranked fifth overall in payroll, twenty eighteen, second, twenty nineteen, sixth.
• 5:38
  Speaker 1: Going into twenty twenty, they still maintained that sixth position,
• 5:41
  Speaker 1: but the five years since they've ranked eleventh, eighteenth, twenty fourth,
• 5:45
  Speaker 1: twenty second, and twenty third. Since winning the World Series,
• 5:48
  Speaker 1: they've spent the twenty fourth most on the free agent market,
• 5:52
  Speaker 1: which sought them right ahead of the Miami Marlins, which
• 5:55
  Speaker 1: is something I don't think fans would realize. And since
• 5:57
  Speaker 1: winning the World Series, they're winning percentage is similarly really declined.
• 6:02
  Speaker 2: It's four oh seven.
• 6:03
  Speaker 3: That's the second worst winning percentage, besting only the Colorado Rockies.
• 6:08
  Speaker 3: So another thing that is happening here behind the scenes
• 6:11
  Speaker 3: that only Mike could probably attribute how disruptive it's been,
• 6:15
  Speaker 3: is that the team's been up for sale multiple times
• 6:17
  Speaker 3: in the last couple of seasons, and they as they've
• 6:19
  Speaker 3: transitioned from the original owner and Ted Lerner and when
• 6:23
  Speaker 3: he passed away to the next generation of learners who
• 6:26
  Speaker 3: are now deciding whether they want to retain the franchise.
• 6:30
  Speaker 3: And so then it gets to the second part of
• 6:31
  Speaker 3: your question, Ryan, which is why now and Bob Nightmingale
• 6:36
  Speaker 3: was one of the first reporters to list that both
• 6:39
  Speaker 3: Davey Martinez and Mike Rizzo had options in their contracts
• 6:42
  Speaker 3: for twenty twenty six that had to be exercised here
• 6:45
  Speaker 3: in July. And so my question, and I'm interested to
• 6:48
  Speaker 3: see if this bears out, is if the franchise conducts
• 6:52
  Speaker 3: a search soon and wants to fold the position, that
• 6:55
  Speaker 3: will signal something. But if they don't, maybe their intention
• 6:58
  Speaker 3: is to sell this offseason, not saddle the new ownership
• 7:01
  Speaker 3: group with the expenses associated with a general managor and
• 7:05
  Speaker 3: a manager who they may want to replace, but rather
• 7:07
  Speaker 3: give them a clean slate. So I would say, in summary,
• 7:11
  Speaker 3: as I look at Mike Rizzo's tenure, he inherited a
• 7:15
  Speaker 3: team that was in the cellar of Major League Baseball.
• 7:17
  Speaker 3: He then wins a world series, he returns it to
• 7:20
  Speaker 3: the seller. It may be the quintessential. Fans often say
• 7:24
  Speaker 3: these things, Hey, as long as you win a world series,
• 7:26
  Speaker 3: nothing else matters. Well, the Washington Nationals in the sixteen
• 7:30
  Speaker 3: years with Mike Rizzo maybe the true test of whether
• 7:33
  Speaker 3: or not fans do believe that. One thing I wanted
• 7:36
  Speaker 3: to ask you, Ryan though, was coming out of this
• 7:40
  Speaker 3: was what Mike Rizzo said in response to his dismissal.
• 7:43
  Speaker 3: And I'm reading the quotation here the sun will come
• 7:46
  Speaker 3: up tomorrow.
• 7:47
  Speaker 2: That's the job.
• 7:47
  Speaker 3: I had a great run navigated that ownership group for
• 7:50
  Speaker 3: almost twenty years. I think that says volumes about what
• 7:55
  Speaker 3: his experience was like there. I know you've had some
• 7:58
  Speaker 3: challenges in throughout your career, but.
• 8:01
  Speaker 2: We've talked about this before.
• 8:02
  Speaker 3: Ownership is tantamount to the success of your franchise. I
• 8:06
  Speaker 3: think he's revealing that some of the challenges there were
• 8:09
  Speaker 3: significant and real.
• 8:11
  Speaker 2: No.
• 8:11
  Speaker 1: I give him a lot of credit for his honesty,
• 8:13
  Speaker 1: and I think you and I both are really impressed
• 8:16
  Speaker 1: by a sixteen year tenure. That and this day and
• 8:18
  Speaker 1: age with social media and the twenty four hour news cycle.
• 8:23
  Speaker 1: I know one of the things that all the leagues
• 8:24
  Speaker 1: have done. The NBA in particular is make these leagues
• 8:27
  Speaker 1: year round endeavors, where the off season is just a
• 8:30
  Speaker 1: myth if you're working on the team side. So to
• 8:32
  Speaker 1: be a general manager, field manager, head coach for sixteen years,
• 8:36
  Speaker 1: that's a remarkable run in this day and age, and
• 8:38
  Speaker 1: you look around all of sports throughing many guys who
• 8:41
  Speaker 1: last that long. But yes, it is a challenge, and
• 8:44
  Speaker 1: it's frankly one of the reasons we're doing the show.
• 8:47
  Speaker 1: Mike Rizzo is one of the few guys. It's easier,
• 8:48
  Speaker 1: I guess on your way out the door than when
• 8:50
  Speaker 1: you're currently employed to say these guys have no idea
• 8:52
  Speaker 1: what they're doing referring to ownership. But that is one
• 8:55
  Speaker 1: of the challenges. And in my career at that I've
• 8:57
  Speaker 1: seen both ends of the spectrum, guys who run teams
• 9:00
  Speaker 1: similarly to the way I would run it. If you
• 9:03
  Speaker 1: and I, you know, win the lottery tomorrow or this
• 9:05
  Speaker 1: podcast turns into Joe Rogan two point zero and you
• 9:08
  Speaker 1: know we're billionaires. I think we have a good model
• 9:10
  Speaker 1: for what we're how we would do it, and then
• 9:13
  Speaker 1: you know others were I would literally do the opposite,
• 9:15
  Speaker 1: just about every situation. So Mike Rizzo, kudos to to
• 9:20
  Speaker 1: him for being honesty.
• 9:22
  Speaker 2: You know, there may be a little bit.
• 9:23
  Speaker 1: Of sour grapes in there on his way out the door,
• 9:25
  Speaker 1: but you know that world, as we say in the NBA,
• 9:28
  Speaker 1: flags fly forever when you win a championship. I was
• 9:31
  Speaker 1: fortunate enough to be part of the Celtics one in
• 9:33
  Speaker 1: two thousand and eight, and I think over times that
• 9:35
  Speaker 1: I want to get your perspective, but my thought is,
• 9:37
  Speaker 1: whatever else happens, the good and the bad, people remember
• 9:40
  Speaker 1: that the most.
• 9:41
  Speaker 2: If you won.
• 9:42
  Speaker 1: Maybe sometimes if you've got to the finals or the
• 9:44
  Speaker 1: World Series and lost, people do remember that more than
• 9:47
  Speaker 1: the roller coaster ride and some of the low points,
• 9:50
  Speaker 1: because those good memories are so poignant.
• 9:53
  Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean, I think I think we've talked about it.
• 9:55
  Speaker 3: There's nothing more galvanizing I think in a fan base
• 9:57
  Speaker 3: when you lose a lot, but everyone's hunting those championship flags,
• 10:01
  Speaker 3: those rings, and those memories that are associated with that.
• 10:05
  Speaker 3: And Mike unequivocally delivered that to a franchise over sixteen years.
• 10:10
  Speaker 3: And as you mentioned, he was the third most tenured
• 10:12
  Speaker 3: Major League Baseball general manager. That is significant in this
• 10:15
  Speaker 3: game right. I want to shift a little bit because
• 10:18
  Speaker 3: what I've been reading ever since our last conversation about
• 10:20
  Speaker 3: free agency is the reporting of contracts and how they
• 10:24
  Speaker 3: seem slightly different than what they were originally reported to be.
• 10:28
  Speaker 3: And I'm just curious, can you help our listeners understand
• 10:30
  Speaker 3: when guys like Dorian Finney Smith and Nikhil Alexander Walker
• 10:35
  Speaker 3: sign and then when it's reported it seems like the
• 10:37
  Speaker 3: contracts are slightly different than what we're initially reported. What's
• 10:41
  Speaker 3: going on.
• 10:41
  Speaker 1: There, Well, it's a race to break news and be first.
• 10:46
  Speaker 1: That across all of sports. That's why guys like Adrian
• 10:49
  Speaker 1: Wojnowski historically for ESPN, more recently Chom Sharania, you know others.
• 10:54
  Speaker 1: Jeff Passen in Major League Baseball is the name I
• 10:57
  Speaker 1: know as far as the newsbreakers who were elite at
• 11:00
  Speaker 1: information and getting it first and putting it online usually
• 11:04
  Speaker 1: on Twitter, slash x or other social media platforms unless
• 11:07
  Speaker 1: they're on TV live and just broadcast it. So that's
• 11:10
  Speaker 1: become a real big deal across sports. Those guys who
• 11:13
  Speaker 1: are now household names and revered for their ability to
• 11:16
  Speaker 1: get information and break news. They're elite at that. But
• 11:20
  Speaker 1: one of the things that happens that is in that
• 11:22
  Speaker 1: race context gets lost a little bit, and those guys
• 11:25
  Speaker 1: need to protect their sources. So what happens in the NBA, oftentimes,
• 11:30
  Speaker 1: especially in free agency, is the source is the agent,
• 11:33
  Speaker 1: because think of who benefits the most from having this
• 11:36
  Speaker 1: out there, especially if it's a big number, that is
• 11:39
  Speaker 1: the player's agent. Where people say, wow, I can't believe
• 11:42
  Speaker 1: that player got that much, and then the second thought
• 11:44
  Speaker 1: is his agent must be doing a heck of a
• 11:46
  Speaker 1: job to get them that much money. So usually that's
• 11:48
  Speaker 1: what happens because it's in the agent's best interest to
• 11:51
  Speaker 1: put it up there. Maybe they have other clients who
• 11:53
  Speaker 1: are in free agency. Maybe they want other teams to say,
• 11:56
  Speaker 1: oh man, this is going to be a tough negotiation,
• 11:58
  Speaker 1: and if we want one of that agent's top clients,
• 12:01
  Speaker 1: we're gonna have to pay up because look at what
• 12:02
  Speaker 1: he just got that guy.
• 12:04
  Speaker 2: So yeah, the numbers Drian.
• 12:06
  Speaker 1: Finney Smith that was reported initially that he signed a
• 12:08
  Speaker 1: four year, fifty three million dollar deal over that. As
• 12:12
  Speaker 1: the details come out, it looks like only about half
• 12:15
  Speaker 1: of that is guaranteed, About twenty five and a quarter
• 12:18
  Speaker 1: is guaranteed, which means actually slightly more than half, about
• 12:21
  Speaker 1: twenty seven and three quarter million is not guaranteed. That's
• 12:25
  Speaker 1: very different things when we were talking about, you know,
• 12:27
  Speaker 1: having fifty three million guaranteed versus just over twenty five.
• 12:31
  Speaker 1: A similar thing happened with Luke Cornett had a really
• 12:34
  Speaker 1: good run in Boston. This is a guy who's been
• 12:37
  Speaker 1: around the league for a while, but as a third
• 12:39
  Speaker 1: string center developed into a nice backup center role with
• 12:42
  Speaker 1: the Celtics, which was more important with the injuries to
• 12:45
  Speaker 1: Christaph Forzeingis and Al Horford. He really stepped up and
• 12:48
  Speaker 1: played a nice role for the Celtics. But it was
• 12:51
  Speaker 1: reported that that the Spurs gave him a four year,
• 12:53
  Speaker 1: forty one million dollar deal, and even my buddies in Boston,
• 12:57
  Speaker 1: the most ardent Celtics fans I think, would say, wow,
• 12:59
  Speaker 1: was Celtic can't do that? They couldn't match that. Well, again,
• 13:02
  Speaker 1: the details come out. It turns out of the forty
• 13:05
  Speaker 1: one million, only twenty four million is guaranteed. A vast
• 13:09
  Speaker 1: majority that is guaranteed over the first two years of
• 13:12
  Speaker 1: a four year contract. The third year has a small
• 13:15
  Speaker 1: partial guarantee, and the fourth year is completely non guaranteed
• 13:19
  Speaker 1: at this point, So that's a seventeen million dollar difference.
• 13:22
  Speaker 1: So that's kind of the game and that's what it's played.
• 13:24
  Speaker 1: So if you see these lofty numbers and say, wow,
• 13:27
  Speaker 1: I can't believe a team paid that player X amount
• 13:30
  Speaker 1: of dollars, take it with a grain of salt, because
• 13:32
  Speaker 1: as the details come out, as people actually get their
• 13:34
  Speaker 1: hands in the contract, sometimes it's not a shiny and
• 13:37
  Speaker 1: as lofty as initially reported. Kristin, I have for you
• 13:40
  Speaker 1: is does this happen in Major League Baseball as well?
• 13:43
  Speaker 1: Reporters are putting out giant numbers that may not be
• 13:46
  Speaker 1: the reality as far as what a player is actually
• 13:49
  Speaker 1: going to receive. I think the one that is most
• 13:52
  Speaker 1: famous is the show Hey Otani reporting when he signed
• 13:56
  Speaker 1: with the Los Angeles Dodgers. It was famously reported as
• 13:59
  Speaker 1: a ten year, seven hundred million dollar deal, and everyone
• 14:03
  Speaker 1: in the industry was just absolutely blown away. That was
• 14:06
  Speaker 1: just so far and.
• 14:07
  Speaker 3: Above and beyond the highest highest paid player in the
• 14:10
  Speaker 3: history of the game that people were totally taken aback.
• 14:13
  Speaker 3: It was supported by saying all the other teams that
• 14:15
  Speaker 3: were interested in him and who had put forth similar deals.
• 14:19
  Speaker 3: It wasn't until like twenty four hours later that the
• 14:21
  Speaker 3: actual details of the deal came out, in which we
• 14:24
  Speaker 3: found out he was actually getting paid two million dollars
• 14:26
  Speaker 3: a year times ten years for the next ten years,
• 14:29
  Speaker 3: and then sixty eight million dollars a year per year
• 14:31
  Speaker 3: were deferred over the subsequent ten years. So the net
• 14:35
  Speaker 3: present value of that seven hundred million dollar deal was
• 14:37
  Speaker 3: actually four hundred and sixty million, which obviously is still
• 14:40
  Speaker 3: a staggering figure, but it's also demonstratively different than ten
• 14:45
  Speaker 3: times seventy what was originally reported. So I would echo
• 14:49
  Speaker 3: what you said. Sometimes the sticker shock is quite shocking,
• 14:53
  Speaker 3: but catch your breath. You may find there are more
• 14:55
  Speaker 3: details to come that allow you to put your feedback
• 14:58
  Speaker 3: on the ground. And it kind of an offshoot of
• 15:01
  Speaker 3: the same conversation is when some of these deals get
• 15:04
  Speaker 3: negotiated in trades, we then see these trades get amended
• 15:08
  Speaker 3: at times due to information that is gained after the
• 15:13
  Speaker 3: point of the deal being conferred. We saw that a
• 15:17
  Speaker 3: little bit in the NBA here. Can you walk us
• 15:19
  Speaker 3: through a few of those examples.
• 15:21
  Speaker 1: Yeah, So one of the things we've talked about recently
• 15:22
  Speaker 1: on the show, that is the mark Williams trade from
• 15:26
  Speaker 1: the Charlotte Hornets to the LA Lakers. That happened just
• 15:29
  Speaker 1: after the Luca Nacis trade, right up against the February
• 15:32
  Speaker 1: trade deadline that fell apart and was rescinded. And the
• 15:35
  Speaker 1: reason it was rescinded is because the trade deadline had
• 15:37
  Speaker 1: come and gone. That's three o'clock in the afternoon usually
• 15:41
  Speaker 1: the second Thursday in February. And once that deadline passes,
• 15:44
  Speaker 1: that the deal either goes through as advertised or there
• 15:47
  Speaker 1: is no deal. And that was the case with the
• 15:50
  Speaker 1: Lakers Hornets deal that fell apart. So Mark Williams went
• 15:52
  Speaker 1: back to Charlotte Dalton connect and the draft picks returned
• 15:55
  Speaker 1: to LA. It was a little bit awkward, frankly, and
• 15:58
  Speaker 1: as I predicted, Mark Williams was not going to be
• 16:00
  Speaker 1: in Charlotte long He's been since retraded to the Phoenix Suns.
• 16:04
  Speaker 1: But I bring it up because that's when you're up
• 16:06
  Speaker 1: against the deadline, there is that hard stop. You can't
• 16:09
  Speaker 1: change a deal at all after the deadline. Even one
• 16:11
  Speaker 1: minute after this situation was a little bit different. The
• 16:14
  Speaker 1: Celtics traded Drew Holliday to the Portland Trail Blazers. We
• 16:18
  Speaker 1: know what Holiday has done, not only as a Celtic
• 16:20
  Speaker 1: but as a Milwaukee Buck as well. I believe he's
• 16:23
  Speaker 1: one of just three players to win multiple rings in
• 16:26
  Speaker 1: the twenty twenties with different franchises. Won the one in
• 16:29
  Speaker 1: Milwaukee in twenty twenty one, and then just with the
• 16:32
  Speaker 1: Boston Celtics year ago in twenty twenty four, so he's
• 16:34
  Speaker 1: a valuable player. At the same time, the Celtics, in
• 16:37
  Speaker 1: large part due to the Jason Tatum injury and the
• 16:40
  Speaker 1: NBA strict second apron and harder cap rules, they're shedding payroll,
• 16:45
  Speaker 1: so they sent Christophe Porzingis to Atlanta and then Drew Holiday.
• 16:48
  Speaker 1: This was largely a salary dump. They got Anthony Simon's back,
• 16:51
  Speaker 1: who's a solid player, but a less expensive player on
• 16:54
  Speaker 1: an expiring contract. So the deals agreed upon that it
• 16:58
  Speaker 1: was Drew Holliday going from Boston to Portland, Anthony Simon's
• 17:01
  Speaker 1: and two second round picks going from Portland to Boston.
• 17:05
  Speaker 1: And then I guess when the Trailblazers got their hands
• 17:07
  Speaker 1: on Drew Holliday and looked at his medical records, did
• 17:10
  Speaker 1: their testing, there was something that they were slightly concerned
• 17:13
  Speaker 1: about now, they weren't concerned enough to avoid the deal,
• 17:16
  Speaker 1: which was their right, but since there is no deadline
• 17:19
  Speaker 1: in the offseason, the teams went back to the drawing
• 17:21
  Speaker 1: board and the compromise was the two second round picks
• 17:24
  Speaker 1: that were initially going from Portland to Boston were not
• 17:26
  Speaker 1: going to be part of the deal. It's just now
• 17:28
  Speaker 1: a straight player for player swap. It has been executed.
• 17:31
  Speaker 1: But these things are tricky that and they're always kind
• 17:34
  Speaker 1: of shades of gray, if you will. In the medical
• 17:36
  Speaker 1: player evaluation. Portland's was concerned enough that they say, wait
• 17:40
  Speaker 1: a minute, we don't feel comfortable giving up that much value,
• 17:43
  Speaker 1: and obviously Boston agreed. So the deal is still happening.
• 17:46
  Speaker 1: In fact, it has happened at this point, it just
• 17:48
  Speaker 1: wasn't as initially advertised with the two second round picks included.
• 17:52
  Speaker 2: Yeah, and right.
• 17:53
  Speaker 3: I think what we've learned is this happens a little
• 17:56
  Speaker 3: bit more in the NBA than Major League Baseball. Where
• 17:58
  Speaker 3: it shows up in Major League Baseball a little bit
• 18:00
  Speaker 3: or prominently unfortunately, is in the draft. You know, they're
• 18:03
  Speaker 3: doing so much more to have a draft combine with
• 18:07
  Speaker 3: medical reports given in that so that teams have it afoerehand,
• 18:11
  Speaker 3: but in years past, we just didn't have complete information.
• 18:14
  Speaker 3: So I recall one time in Texas we selected a
• 18:18
  Speaker 3: pitcher who had pitched throughout his whole college career, no issues,
• 18:22
  Speaker 3: no injury time whatsoever. We ended up doing a very
• 18:26
  Speaker 3: standard physical in which we did an MRI of his
• 18:30
  Speaker 3: elbow and his shoulder, and we found that he had
• 18:32
  Speaker 3: a prominent terror in his elbow. The player had no idea,
• 18:36
  Speaker 3: his coach had no idea, his family had no idea,
• 18:39
  Speaker 3: and all of a sudden, we're sitting in a tough
• 18:41
  Speaker 3: spot where we have to tell him that the status
• 18:44
  Speaker 3: in the draft has changed dramatically and now he, you know,
• 18:48
  Speaker 3: is really in a position to earn far less money
• 18:50
  Speaker 3: because it was just a matter of when he was
• 18:52
  Speaker 3: going to have to have surgery. It was devastating for
• 18:55
  Speaker 3: the player. You hate to see those types of things happen,
• 18:58
  Speaker 3: especially in that situation and where the player genuinely had
• 19:01
  Speaker 3: no idea whatsoever that he was actually injured at the time.
• 19:04
  Speaker 3: So it happens in Major League Baseball, maybe a little
• 19:07
  Speaker 3: bit less frequently than you see it based upon your
• 19:09
  Speaker 3: experience in the NBA, but nonetheless it does happen, and
• 19:14
  Speaker 3: it's horrible. You really don't want to see that happen
• 19:16
  Speaker 3: to players or teams in those situations.
• 19:19
  Speaker 1: And you worry about the player, even the outgoing player,
• 19:22
  Speaker 1: damaging his reputation, his market value in free agency and
• 19:26
  Speaker 1: all that. Players obviously get paid based on productivity and
• 19:28
  Speaker 1: on health, so there are concerns about taking this tack,
• 19:31
  Speaker 1: but we've seen it a couple of times recently in
• 19:33
  Speaker 1: the NBA with concerns about these physicals. Coming back after this,
• 19:37
  Speaker 1: we're going to have long time Major League Baseball player
• 19:40
  Speaker 1: agent Jeff Berry is a really interesting guy, work for
• 19:43
  Speaker 1: CAA at the highest levels now as a senior advisor
• 19:46
  Speaker 1: for the San Francisco Giants, and a pretty diverse guy.
• 19:49
  Speaker 1: He's interested in horse racing, He's got a new baseball
• 19:51
  Speaker 1: batting helmet, He's got a lot of stuff going on.
• 19:53
  Speaker 2: He is stad Levine.
• 19:54
  Speaker 1: I'm Ryan McDonough will be right back with Jeff Berry
• 19:57
  Speaker 1: right after this.
• 20:06
  Speaker 3: Welcome back to rosterster Rings. Bryan and I are ecstatic
• 20:10
  Speaker 3: to bring on Jeff Barry as our next guest. Jeff
• 20:13
  Speaker 3: spent twenty six years as one of the pre eminent
• 20:15
  Speaker 3: baseball agents. He got to start with Hendrick Sports Management,
• 20:19
  Speaker 3: then moved to IMG and ultimately joined CAIA, where he
• 20:23
  Speaker 3: started up their baseball division, a division that he would
• 20:26
  Speaker 3: ultimately run under Jeff's supervision. CAA negotiated over four billion
• 20:31
  Speaker 3: dollars worth of contracts. Their client list was vast. Here
• 20:35
  Speaker 3: a few names to consider, Buster Posey, Trey Turner, JT Real, Mudo,
• 20:41
  Speaker 3: sho heey Otani, Hunter Green, JAKEPV, Mark Burley. This past offseason,
• 20:46
  Speaker 3: Jeff joined the San Francisco Giants, where he's joining longtime
• 20:50
  Speaker 3: friend and client Buster Posey as a senior advisor. Jeff
• 20:54
  Speaker 3: is Baseball's version of the International Man of Mystery. In
• 20:57
  Speaker 3: addition to representing players, Yef is a serial entrepreneur. He's
• 21:01
  Speaker 3: a longtime board member on the v Foundation, he owns racehorses,
• 21:05
  Speaker 3: and he's a strong vocal advocate for players' rights. Welcome
• 21:10
  Speaker 3: Jeff to the show. We want to kick it off
• 21:13
  Speaker 3: by talking a little bit about the draft and asking
• 21:15
  Speaker 3: you to take us behind the scenes. How do agents
• 21:18
  Speaker 3: prepare for the draft and then on draft night? How
• 21:20
  Speaker 3: do you manage the communication between baseball executives and your
• 21:24
  Speaker 3: clients and their families?
• 21:26
  Speaker 4: Oh? Well, hello, Thaddeus it is. It's a very formal introduction. Ryan,
• 21:31
  Speaker 4: nice to see you as well. As I've mentioned, I
• 21:34
  Speaker 4: know your brother Sean, so one, thanks for thanks for
• 21:38
  Speaker 4: having me on the show. I think it's exciting what
• 21:41
  Speaker 4: you guys are doing. I think the draft, the draft
• 21:46
  Speaker 4: to me is it's like I think it's the most
• 21:52
  Speaker 4: not necessarily for an agent, but for the families, the
• 21:56
  Speaker 4: single most. And I don't even think it's close most
• 22:00
  Speaker 4: stressful event of a baseball player's career. And you would think, oh,
• 22:06
  Speaker 4: when you get to the major leagues, Oh, when you
• 22:08
  Speaker 4: get to big contract negotiations, when you get to free agency,
• 22:12
  Speaker 4: nothing to me is even close to the draft. And
• 22:15
  Speaker 4: I think the interesting part of that is, you know,
• 22:17
  Speaker 4: these kids are young, they're seventeen, eighteen, twenty one out
• 22:22
  Speaker 4: of college, and it's a very family oriented like this
• 22:27
  Speaker 4: is something that doesn't the draft day itself is it's
• 22:33
  Speaker 4: the build up of a lifetime of work that the
• 22:36
  Speaker 4: whole family has put in. So everybody's involved in it,
• 22:41
  Speaker 4: and you have the edge of not knowing where you're
• 22:44
  Speaker 4: going to go. What you mean, you've seen dreams happen,
• 22:49
  Speaker 4: so to speak, and you see, you know the pain
• 22:53
  Speaker 4: of not going where you anticipate and so much of
• 22:56
  Speaker 4: this has even been exacerbated that you saw it over
• 22:58
  Speaker 4: the course of your career. When I was in college,
• 23:03
  Speaker 4: we would like prank each other. I played at UNC Charlotte,
• 23:05
  Speaker 4: graduated from there as like somebody would fake call you
• 23:08
  Speaker 4: say hey, we stole you in the forty sixth round
• 23:11
  Speaker 4: because you don't know until like three days after. Now
• 23:15
  Speaker 4: everything is from the time these kids are fourteen fifteen.
• 23:19
  Speaker 4: You have the perfect game. You have, you know, like
• 23:22
  Speaker 4: they're famous in the little draft prospect world. And so
• 23:26
  Speaker 4: you have kids that have been built up since they've
• 23:28
  Speaker 4: been fourteen, some that are unknown families that have you know,
• 23:33
  Speaker 4: spent thousands of dollars chasing this dream, not only in
• 23:37
  Speaker 4: money but in time and effort. And so you know,
• 23:42
  Speaker 4: the social media aspects I think have even heightened the
• 23:46
  Speaker 4: focus so to speak.
• 23:47
  Speaker 2: On the draft.
• 23:48
  Speaker 4: But from you know, I've got an interesting story. You
• 23:52
  Speaker 4: remember Joe Blanton, of course this is a It was
• 23:55
  Speaker 4: a great client, wonderful lives out in Napa Valley now
• 24:00
  Speaker 4: his own winery. But I was remember it was whatever
• 24:04
  Speaker 4: the Phillies Rays World Series was, and Joe is starting
• 24:09
  Speaker 4: game four. He actually had a home run off Edwin
• 24:11
  Speaker 4: Jackson that game. But I'm there with his dad and
• 24:14
  Speaker 4: I'm sitting with his dad, who was a very, you know,
• 24:17
  Speaker 4: kind of hands off parent. But I remember sitting with
• 24:20
  Speaker 4: his dad and Joe was getting ready to start its pregame.
• 24:23
  Speaker 4: He goes, I go, are you nervous? He goes, no,
• 24:26
  Speaker 4: he goes, this is on him. He goes, you know
• 24:28
  Speaker 4: when I was nervous on the draft night, this is
• 24:31
  Speaker 4: nothing compared to the draft. And I remember thinking it really,
• 24:37
  Speaker 4: I don't know, kind of brought into focus the emotion
• 24:41
  Speaker 4: and the anxiety and all that stuff people are feeling
• 24:45
  Speaker 4: for the draft.
• 24:46
  Speaker 3: You know, Jeff, One quick follow up I have for
• 24:48
  Speaker 3: you on that is, you know, from a club's perspective,
• 24:51
  Speaker 3: We've talked a little bit about how it's going on
• 24:53
  Speaker 3: in the draft room where Shawn Johnson, the scouting director
• 24:57
  Speaker 3: of the Minnesota Twins. We're five picks away from our pick.
• 25:00
  Speaker 3: I'm calling you, somebody's calling another agent, another guy's calling
• 25:04
  Speaker 3: a third agent to line up what would it cost
• 25:06
  Speaker 3: to sign your player? And so I just be curious
• 25:10
  Speaker 3: to take the listener behind the scenes, like how are
• 25:11
  Speaker 3: you processing that information? I call you up and say, hey,
• 25:14
  Speaker 3: would Joe Blanton sign for one point five million dollars?
• 25:19
  Speaker 3: You then have to call the family. The thing that
• 25:21
  Speaker 3: I think the listener should understand that's so challenging for
• 25:24
  Speaker 3: an agent in this is you may have literally two
• 25:28
  Speaker 3: to three minutes to get the family on the phone,
• 25:31
  Speaker 3: make a determination, and then, unfortunately, because there are two
• 25:35
  Speaker 3: other people in Minnesota's war room making those same calls,
• 25:38
  Speaker 3: we may not ultimately select your player. And so now
• 25:41
  Speaker 3: your player has to process they were just offered a
• 25:43
  Speaker 3: certain dollar amount and the team passed them over. How
• 25:46
  Speaker 3: do you manage some of those conversations, Jeff.
• 25:49
  Speaker 4: I manage it that beforehand, because the thing would you say,
• 25:53
  Speaker 4: would he sign for this? I would ask you, is
• 25:55
  Speaker 4: that an offer? That's where so I you know, oh,
• 26:00
  Speaker 4: I mean I don't know if I had that conversation
• 26:02
  Speaker 4: with you before over the years, but like, is that
• 26:05
  Speaker 4: an offer? Because I don't play in hypotheticals with clients
• 26:09
  Speaker 4: in their careers. I want somebody, an organization that wants
• 26:12
  Speaker 4: to take this player, and if it's you know, if not,
• 26:17
  Speaker 4: then you know, you talk to the player beforehand, and
• 26:20
  Speaker 4: if he falls in the draft, he falls. But unless
• 26:23
  Speaker 4: it's like an offer or no, we would take him
• 26:26
  Speaker 4: as such. I don't think it was. It wouldn't be
• 26:29
  Speaker 4: worth the conversation for me.
• 26:32
  Speaker 2: Jeff.
• 26:32
  Speaker 1: Sticking on the draft theme, but backing up a little
• 26:34
  Speaker 1: bit prior to the draft, how did you divide your
• 26:37
  Speaker 1: time between scouting, recruiting players identifying and did that change
• 26:43
  Speaker 1: and evolve throughout your career in terms of the balance
• 26:45
  Speaker 1: between signing high school prospects, college prospects, position players versus pitchers.
• 26:51
  Speaker 1: How did you balance that up and did that shift
• 26:53
  Speaker 1: in all over the course of your career.
• 26:55
  Speaker 4: I don't know if it shifted at all. I mean,
• 26:58
  Speaker 4: the whole idea of an agent, you want to represent
• 27:00
  Speaker 4: great players and I don't care if they're fifteen or
• 27:04
  Speaker 4: thirty five. So the key I think on any of
• 27:09
  Speaker 4: it is having a lot of great people work for you.
• 27:13
  Speaker 4: And you know, I always had incredible people that I
• 27:19
  Speaker 4: worked alongside with that. You know, I don't know if
• 27:23
  Speaker 4: it was ever a division of time or anything else.
• 27:27
  Speaker 4: Is you know, you do what needs to be done.
• 27:31
  Speaker 4: You know. The difference I think from where you guys
• 27:34
  Speaker 4: come from and from the agent side. The agent side
• 27:38
  Speaker 4: is entrepreneurial. You know, if you work in the I've
• 27:43
  Speaker 4: often questioned, I went on, David Sampson's showed that he's
• 27:46
  Speaker 4: now he's a big podcaster. I think he's making a
• 27:50
  Speaker 4: bunch of dough at it too now and has done
• 27:53
  Speaker 4: pretty well. And he was offended when I because he's like, well,
• 27:57
  Speaker 4: you know the business, and the I'm like, I don't
• 28:01
  Speaker 4: know if it's a business, because you're not going to
• 28:03
  Speaker 4: bankrupt it. On the entrepreneurial side, when there's actually a
• 28:08
  Speaker 4: decisions that we make is you know, if money doesn't
• 28:12
  Speaker 4: come in, if you don't represent great players, you go
• 28:14
  Speaker 4: out of business, right And so from our standpoint, if
• 28:18
  Speaker 4: you make the wrong decision in a working for a
• 28:21
  Speaker 4: professional team, you don't go out of business. You might
• 28:24
  Speaker 4: get fired eventually, but you don't go out of business.
• 28:27
  Speaker 4: And so from our standpoint in the division of time,
• 28:32
  Speaker 4: it was I don't know. You fish where the fish are,
• 28:36
  Speaker 4: and so I don't know. It was as simple as that.
• 28:40
  Speaker 3: Shifting gears a second but kind of similar theme. The
• 28:43
  Speaker 3: way the calendar works in baseball, know, the draft and
• 28:46
  Speaker 3: the trading deadline are a lot more condensed. How do
• 28:49
  Speaker 3: you prepare your clients for the trading deadline when they're
• 28:52
  Speaker 3: showing up in a lot of rumors and then ultimately
• 28:55
  Speaker 3: on the trade deadline, one of your players gets traded.
• 28:58
  Speaker 3: Like what happens from an age perspective, what calls are
• 29:01
  Speaker 3: you receiving from the family. How are you helping set
• 29:04
  Speaker 3: them up for the next city and success? Like humanize
• 29:08
  Speaker 3: that moment, like what is it like for a player
• 29:10
  Speaker 3: to go through a trade?
• 29:12
  Speaker 4: Here is a you remember when the Marlins had the
• 29:15
  Speaker 4: they and this guy's getting a statue in Chicago on
• 29:19
  Speaker 4: Friday is Mark Burley And one of the more interesting
• 29:23
  Speaker 4: I remember this being a long night. I think the
• 29:25
  Speaker 4: key is always communicate. But one of the biggest things
• 29:28
  Speaker 4: to me in business is you have to be able
• 29:31
  Speaker 4: to deliver bad news. Everybody calls when like I would
• 29:35
  Speaker 4: always call clients dad. If a guy gets bounced in
• 29:38
  Speaker 4: the first inning, right, I know he's sitting in the clubhouse.
• 29:41
  Speaker 4: I call him then because no one's calling it. If
• 29:44
  Speaker 4: he throws like a complete game, shutout, everybody's texting calling
• 29:48
  Speaker 4: all that. So I think the ability to deliver bad
• 29:53
  Speaker 4: or unwanted information authentically is one of the key attributes
• 29:59
  Speaker 4: to be successful as an agent, because everybody can be
• 30:02
  Speaker 4: a glad hander, right, but when you know it kind
• 30:06
  Speaker 4: of hits. The proverbial fan is when you know you
• 30:10
  Speaker 4: need to be able to take care of business and
• 30:11
  Speaker 4: they need to trust that you have their best interest
• 30:13
  Speaker 4: and know what you're doing, and we'll do everything you can.
• 30:16
  Speaker 4: You might not be able to make the situation any better,
• 30:19
  Speaker 4: but you're going to do everything you can, and the
• 30:22
  Speaker 4: client knows that. So I think that's the key to communication.
• 30:25
  Speaker 4: But when Burley was traded to it was from Miami
• 30:31
  Speaker 4: to Toronto. We didn't have a no trade clause. Miami didn't.
• 30:36
  Speaker 4: We knew the risk we were taking. We got a
• 30:37
  Speaker 4: four year deal in Miami. Ozzie Yen went down there.
• 30:41
  Speaker 4: Mark played for Ozzie. You know, they signed who was
• 30:45
  Speaker 4: at the shortstop, the reliever, Burley. They had a big
• 30:48
  Speaker 4: splash that off seasons, the opening of their new stadium,
• 30:52
  Speaker 4: anticipated being there, but obviously it was the Marlins organization
• 30:56
  Speaker 4: at the time. We knew the risks and he gets traded.
• 31:00
  Speaker 4: He gets traded to the Toronto Blue Jays, which is fine.
• 31:05
  Speaker 4: You know, Anthoppoless had a good run going up there,
• 31:08
  Speaker 4: all that sort of thing. But Toronto itself has a
• 31:13
  Speaker 4: pit bull band and Mark and his wife were huge
• 31:18
  Speaker 4: animal rights advocates and owned pit bulls. His wife would
• 31:22
  Speaker 4: rescue pit bulls all over the country. So now all
• 31:25
  Speaker 4: of a sudden their family is disrupted because their dogs
• 31:30
  Speaker 4: can't come to Toronto. So those are the type of
• 31:34
  Speaker 4: things that you talk about behind the scenes, where you
• 31:36
  Speaker 4: toad the humanistic aspects of it. It was a nightmare
• 31:40
  Speaker 4: and it felt I mean, you can't change the I
• 31:44
  Speaker 4: can't rewrite a law in you know, and it's like,
• 31:48
  Speaker 4: I don't even know if I'm going I'm like, oh,
• 31:50
  Speaker 4: we're in the So it was a lot to it,
• 31:53
  Speaker 4: and so getting Mark up there, figuring out when his
• 31:56
  Speaker 4: family's going to be up there, the dogs obviously pit bulls.
• 31:59
  Speaker 4: Could they live outside of Toronto and still bring the
• 32:01
  Speaker 4: pit bulls. It was just that was one of the
• 32:04
  Speaker 4: unique things that people often don't realize when people get traded.
• 32:08
  Speaker 4: It's disruptive as anything for your life.
• 32:11
  Speaker 2: No, it is, for sure.
• 32:13
  Speaker 1: And Jeff, one of the things we talked about on
• 32:14
  Speaker 1: a recent episode is the difference between free agency, which
• 32:18
  Speaker 1: is tapped a little over a week ago in the
• 32:20
  Speaker 1: NBA just got started. There's some players on the board
• 32:22
  Speaker 1: and just how fast and condensed the period it is
• 32:26
  Speaker 1: is feeding frenzy right around.
• 32:28
  Speaker 4: That's the opposite of baseball, Ryan.
• 32:31
  Speaker 1: And that's where I was going out. I wanted to
• 32:33
  Speaker 1: get your take on it, both as an agent and
• 32:34
  Speaker 1: now as somebody on the team side, or what are
• 32:36
  Speaker 1: your thoughts on it seems seems very long and drawn out.
• 32:38
  Speaker 4: From my perspective, I think we live and I don't
• 32:43
  Speaker 4: know if you've listened to my podcasts that did on only.
• 32:46
  Speaker 4: I think there's been a kind of a technocratic paradigm
• 32:49
  Speaker 4: that took over baseball, where you know this almost fraudulent
• 32:57
  Speaker 4: intellectual like you have to have a huge, massive front office,
• 33:02
  Speaker 4: you have to Dad will call, well, we just wanted
• 33:04
  Speaker 4: to check in, check in on what, Battius. You already
• 33:08
  Speaker 4: know what players we have. What do you want to
• 33:10
  Speaker 4: check in on? Do you want to make me an offer? Now?
• 33:13
  Speaker 4: We just wanted to see where you're at. And I'm like,
• 33:15
  Speaker 4: I don't even know what that. I'm at my phone,
• 33:18
  Speaker 4: at my desk. What do you mean where we're at?
• 33:21
  Speaker 4: We would sign with your team? Okay, I'll take that
• 33:25
  Speaker 4: back to the group and you know, we'll do a
• 33:27
  Speaker 4: deeper dive. You know, all these little jargon words that
• 33:30
  Speaker 4: and it's like I think the it's almost paralysis by
• 33:34
  Speaker 4: analysis where you have so much and people are I
• 33:39
  Speaker 4: don't know that it's everything is judged the media. It's like,
• 33:43
  Speaker 4: what do you hear now with that? And I think
• 33:45
  Speaker 4: this is the complete opposite of what's true that no,
• 33:49
  Speaker 4: running a baseball franchise is now like you know, operating
• 33:52
  Speaker 4: a global hedge fund with the complexities. And I'm like, Dad,
• 33:57
  Speaker 4: you've been around since I don't know, the late nineties,
• 33:59
  Speaker 4: two thousand. It's the same business. The you know, the
• 34:03
  Speaker 4: analytics revolution where we want to overcomplicate things is we've
• 34:08
  Speaker 4: always had stop watches and radar guns. You can glean
• 34:10
  Speaker 4: statistics off the back. I feel like the you know,
• 34:14
  Speaker 4: the surplus value is a term that we've heard so
• 34:17
  Speaker 4: often that that people do the math and you add
• 34:19
  Speaker 4: up and like, well, my math is better than your math.
• 34:23
  Speaker 4: To me, one plus one always equals to I don't
• 34:25
  Speaker 4: know how anybody could do that better. Uh So, you know,
• 34:30
  Speaker 4: from the front office standpoint in baseball, it's like the
• 34:34
  Speaker 4: everyone uses the word process all the time, Ryan and
• 34:39
  Speaker 4: this group thing and the gunslingers of the past. No,
• 34:43
  Speaker 4: I want to sign your player, Let's make a deal.
• 34:47
  Speaker 4: It's not people the front office generation has not been
• 34:54
  Speaker 4: raised that way.
• 34:55
  Speaker 3: I don't know if that is on that Yeah, I do, Jeff,
• 34:59
  Speaker 3: I mean just to echoes your points, because I think
• 35:01
  Speaker 3: yours in my career really paralleled each other on the
• 35:04
  Speaker 3: agent side. I was on the club side. But I mean,
• 35:06
  Speaker 3: tell me if I'm wrong. Like when I started in
• 35:08
  Speaker 3: the game, like the average general manager was Kevin Towers
• 35:11
  Speaker 3: and Omar Manya and Jim Hendry and Brian Sabian. And
• 35:16
  Speaker 3: one thing that was universal about those guys is they
• 35:19
  Speaker 3: were the guy who they went out and got players.
• 35:22
  Speaker 3: They were those gunslingers.
• 35:23
  Speaker 2: They took risks.
• 35:25
  Speaker 3: When they called you, you knew exactly what they were
• 35:27
  Speaker 3: looking for because they told you what they were looking for.
• 35:29
  Speaker 3: And one of the biggest distinctions I've seen in the
• 35:33
  Speaker 3: I don't know if the proper word is evolution of
• 35:36
  Speaker 3: the game, but changes in the game is that general
• 35:38
  Speaker 3: managers then used to hunt good players. I think now
• 35:42
  Speaker 3: they hunt good deals, and I think there's a distinction.
• 35:45
  Speaker 3: And when we're calling you and we're more focused on
• 35:49
  Speaker 3: maintaining leverage and we are gathering as much information as
• 35:53
  Speaker 3: possible while giving as little information as possible, it makes
• 35:57
  Speaker 3: for very laborious conversations. I always used to like technolog
• 36:00
  Speaker 3: the chase and just tell people what we're looking for
• 36:03
  Speaker 3: and see if we can actually come to a fair
• 36:04
  Speaker 3: and equitable deal. But that's not really how the average
• 36:07
  Speaker 3: general manager is negotiating today.
• 36:09
  Speaker 4: Why do you think that is pattious?
• 36:12
  Speaker 3: I think there, you know, I think there's a few
• 36:14
  Speaker 3: things going One one you highlighted, which is I think
• 36:17
  Speaker 3: there's just so much more advanced data to evaluate the
• 36:21
  Speaker 3: measure of these deals. So whereas before we were operating
• 36:24
  Speaker 3: a little bit more subjectively based upon scouts input, you know,
• 36:28
  Speaker 3: human input, we're now relying a lot more on models,
• 36:31
  Speaker 3: so there's a lot more easy ways for people to
• 36:34
  Speaker 3: say empirically whether that was a good or bad deal.
• 36:37
  Speaker 3: So we've become more sophisticated in how we evaluate the deals.
• 36:41
  Speaker 3: But I think you also illuminated another point, which is
• 36:44
  Speaker 3: we're hiring different types of people. You know, the qualifications
• 36:47
  Speaker 3: to be a general manager. When I started, by and large,
• 36:50
  Speaker 3: as yet, I had to have some backing in the
• 36:52
  Speaker 3: game of baseball. I think you had to be pretty
• 36:55
  Speaker 3: balanced EQ and IQ. You had the ability to be
• 36:59
  Speaker 3: a little bit of a marketing forward looking person for
• 37:02
  Speaker 3: the franchise, and nowadays we've I think, started hiring people
• 37:06
  Speaker 3: who are a lot more IQ led, which is there's
• 37:10
  Speaker 3: nothing inherently wrong with that, but it is that the
• 37:14
  Speaker 3: level of raw intelligence has come the game has certainly increased,
• 37:19
  Speaker 3: but I think so too has the personalities may have
• 37:22
  Speaker 3: decreased a little bit. We don't have those, you know,
• 37:25
  Speaker 3: kind of strong flamboyant personalities in the game as much.
• 37:29
  Speaker 3: And I don't think that took away at all from
• 37:30
  Speaker 3: the intelligence of the decision making personal.
• 37:33
  Speaker 4: No, I look. One of the things to me, I
• 37:35
  Speaker 4: think you watch the Moneyball and I've commented on this
• 37:39
  Speaker 4: that I think Moneyball storytelling is a big thing, right.
• 37:42
  Speaker 4: You see it in politics, you see it in business,
• 37:44
  Speaker 4: you see it in all aspects of life. And John
• 37:47
  Speaker 4: Henry is sitting there with Billy Bean at the end
• 37:50
  Speaker 4: of the movie and Brad Pitt's a superstar. I just
• 37:53
  Speaker 4: watched F one. I'm gonna start dipping my face in
• 37:57
  Speaker 4: the ice water every morning so I can stay as
• 38:00
  Speaker 4: young as Brad Pitt. We all have dreams, Dad, but
• 38:05
  Speaker 4: the you know, looking at when you you have general managers,
• 38:14
  Speaker 4: that everyone is basing it. John Henry says to Billy Bean,
• 38:20
  Speaker 4: you took the you know, the Yankees paid X hundreds
• 38:23
  Speaker 4: of millions per win. You paid this, and the reality
• 38:27
  Speaker 4: was ninety percent of those moneyball teams was built through
• 38:30
  Speaker 4: the international and amateur drafts. No one ever talks about that,
• 38:35
  Speaker 4: but the Scott Hattieberg and the efficiency model and how
• 38:38
  Speaker 4: he did it cheap and that science has the answer
• 38:41
  Speaker 4: to the Bambino. Think about this for a second. You're
• 38:44
  Speaker 4: watching this movie, I don't know, Oscar type movie, great actors.
• 38:49
  Speaker 4: Billy was an incredible leader, would take over any room
• 38:53
  Speaker 4: that he goes into. You have this moment at the
• 38:56
  Speaker 4: end where he's sitting in Fenway Park talking with John Henry,
• 38:59
  Speaker 4: and John Henry says basically, congratulations, you just built the
• 39:03
  Speaker 4: cheapest winning team in history. Now I'm going to make
• 39:08
  Speaker 4: you the highest paid sports executive in history. What do
• 39:12
  Speaker 4: you think that incentivizes from there? It's so now it's
• 39:17
  Speaker 4: more about the front office than it is about the
• 39:20
  Speaker 4: actual players on the field, that, oh, we can out
• 39:23
  Speaker 4: smart everybody. I think that's one of the biggest fraudulent
• 39:27
  Speaker 4: type of the idea that it's the players on the
• 39:31
  Speaker 4: field that matter. The Braves are having a tough season.
• 39:34
  Speaker 4: Alex and Thoughtless's IQ hasn't gone down, has it? His
• 39:38
  Speaker 4: emotional intelligence the you know, Derek Folvey today is just
• 39:42
  Speaker 4: as smart as he was five years ago or whenever
• 39:45
  Speaker 4: you know they were winning. And so it's so much
• 39:48
  Speaker 4: to me is like, now, good players make really good
• 39:50
  Speaker 4: great general managers and coaches. It's not that your math
• 39:55
  Speaker 4: is so superior. But and I'll tell you why. And
• 40:00
  Speaker 4: so that's where I think a lot of that resonated from.
• 40:03
  Speaker 4: Is that tells you that sets up an incentive for all, right,
• 40:06
  Speaker 4: the cheapest you can do it, that's the highest paid
• 40:08
  Speaker 4: general manager. And I think that the evidence of this
• 40:13
  Speaker 4: the San Francisco Giants won three World Series in five years.
• 40:17
  Speaker 4: They didn't have one person ever even interviewed much less.
• 40:22
  Speaker 4: But if you were working for the Rais and you
• 40:26
  Speaker 4: had general managers lined up, you had Corn Ferry pushing you,
• 40:30
  Speaker 4: you have all these different things. And to me, if
• 40:34
  Speaker 4: winning is the goal, then San Francisco should have had
• 40:37
  Speaker 4: people banging down their doors when they win three World
• 40:40
  Speaker 4: Series in five years. Yet not one person was ever
• 40:43
  Speaker 4: even interviewed from that organization for a job.
• 40:47
  Speaker 3: It's remarkable. It's remarkable, Jeff. This actually segues into a
• 40:52
  Speaker 3: question we wanted to ask you, which is you know,
• 40:55
  Speaker 3: I think all of sports is talent evaluation. You know,
• 40:57
  Speaker 3: agents are doing it no different than front office executives.
• 41:02
  Speaker 3: We understand that scouts can line up three shortstops and
• 41:05
  Speaker 3: evaluate them. But part of my job was to have
• 41:07
  Speaker 3: scouting reports on every agent, on every other general manager.
• 41:11
  Speaker 3: I imagine you did the same, And I'm just curious
• 41:13
  Speaker 3: when you were preparing to negotiate, let's just say, with
• 41:17
  Speaker 3: a Kevin Towers type versus a today's GM, like, how
• 41:21
  Speaker 3: did you prepare differently for that? Did you have scouting
• 41:24
  Speaker 3: reports on these guys? And I wanted to share something
• 41:26
  Speaker 3: with you, Jeff, I looked up because I kept notes
• 41:28
  Speaker 3: on everybody. These were the words I had written next
• 41:31
  Speaker 3: to your name, And tell me if I got this right.
• 41:35
  Speaker 3: I wrote down He's a relationship guy more than a
• 41:37
  Speaker 3: transactional agent. He always enjoyed a conversation that You were
• 41:42
  Speaker 3: passionate about the betterment of the game, and you enjoyed
• 41:45
  Speaker 3: engaging on those conversations kind of across the aisle. You
• 41:48
  Speaker 3: always tapped into front office executives about that. You were
• 41:52
  Speaker 3: exceptionally creative, You were very principal on behalf of your
• 41:55
  Speaker 3: players and you had very high integrity. That's what I
• 41:58
  Speaker 3: had written down as my scouting report you. So I
• 42:01
  Speaker 3: just was curious, is it nice?
• 42:03
  Speaker 4: Words? Bad? Now?
• 42:04
  Speaker 2: That's hey.
• 42:05
  Speaker 3: I have a journal somewhere. I dusted it off with
• 42:09
  Speaker 3: my feather duster, and that's what it said next to
• 42:11
  Speaker 3: your name. So I just just curious, like, how differently
• 42:14
  Speaker 3: did you prepare? Did you have scouting reports on gms?
• 42:17
  Speaker 3: And would you care to share with the listeners any
• 42:19
  Speaker 3: of those that you recall.
• 42:20
  Speaker 4: Now here's the thing on that from a scouting report
• 42:23
  Speaker 4: on any of it. It was more to me is
• 42:25
  Speaker 4: what are the GM's motivations? Is he looking to you know,
• 42:30
  Speaker 4: does he want to look smart? Is he worried about
• 42:33
  Speaker 4: his job? Where are so it's more to me it
• 42:37
  Speaker 4: was situational. What are the needs? I would be more direct.
• 42:40
  Speaker 4: I would try to be direct with everyone, but I
• 42:43
  Speaker 4: would you know, I think my approach and maybe it
• 42:46
  Speaker 4: was even wrong. I was the same with everyone, meaning
• 42:51
  Speaker 4: I would try to know what the situation was, why
• 42:55
  Speaker 4: they're making this move, why they interest, what's this guy's
• 42:58
  Speaker 4: current status and is he willing to make a deal.
• 43:04
  Speaker 4: If you had a guy that is you know, I
• 43:06
  Speaker 4: had so many, Like, even going back with Hater when
• 43:13
  Speaker 4: he was a free agent, he had the lowest batting
• 43:16
  Speaker 4: average against. Here's something for you, Ryan. Think about this
• 43:18
  Speaker 4: from an NBA's perspective. He's a left handed closer, had
• 43:24
  Speaker 4: the lowest batting average against in the highest strikeout rate
• 43:28
  Speaker 4: in history. So by definition that and you'll have I
• 43:31
  Speaker 4: don't know, if this is analytically correct, that would make
• 43:34
  Speaker 4: him the hardest pitcher to hit in history. Right, and
• 43:38
  Speaker 4: his MRI was pristine. I'd had multiple general managers say
• 43:43
  Speaker 4: I've never seen an MRI this good. Obviously, he was
• 43:45
  Speaker 4: only pitching one inning at a time dad for the
• 43:49
  Speaker 4: previous four years for that purpose, but I would have people, well, yeah,
• 43:54
  Speaker 4: we just wanted to check in and I don't know,
• 43:57
  Speaker 4: kind of see where you guys are at us. Well,
• 43:59
  Speaker 4: I don't know. He's arguably the best pitcher in history
• 44:03
  Speaker 4: and reliever in history, and these are the reasons why,
• 44:06
  Speaker 4: and yeah, we'd consider everything. Well, okay, just check back
• 44:10
  Speaker 4: in with me if things start to move, and I'd
• 44:13
  Speaker 4: be like, no, I'm not checking back in with you.
• 44:16
  Speaker 4: Take that back to your tay. I'm not checking I'm
• 44:19
  Speaker 4: not doing your job. If you have interest in this player,
• 44:22
  Speaker 4: we'll consider all teams. And it was kind of like
• 44:24
  Speaker 4: that for every player. But think about that for a second. Ryan,
• 44:28
  Speaker 4: you have the best three point shooter and a good
• 44:31
  Speaker 4: defender with the healthy record that doesn't sit around well
• 44:35
  Speaker 4: if anything starts to go circle back with me, think
• 44:38
  Speaker 4: about that from a difference from MLB to the NBA
• 44:41
  Speaker 4: free agency, No.
• 44:44
  Speaker 1: It's a huge difference for sure, And a lot of
• 44:46
  Speaker 1: guys who really aren't very good got tens, if not
• 44:48
  Speaker 1: one hundred million dollars plus last week in the NBA.
• 44:50
  Speaker 1: So that's a huge, huge difference.
• 44:53
  Speaker 2: Jeff.
• 44:53
  Speaker 1: The next question I had for you is something Fad
• 44:55
  Speaker 1: and I have talked about recently in terms of the
• 44:57
  Speaker 1: differences between Major League Baseball and the NBA, specifically with
• 45:02
  Speaker 1: the payroll. And one of the fun things about this
• 45:04
  Speaker 1: show is for the NBA that is kind of the
• 45:06
  Speaker 1: voice of the fan. I'm the quote unquote expert, and
• 45:08
  Speaker 1: we reverse it for Major League Baseball. So we got
• 45:11
  Speaker 1: his perspective last week, but I want to get your
• 45:13
  Speaker 1: perspective now because one of the issues I have as
• 45:16
  Speaker 1: a fan of Major League Baseball is when the season starts,
• 45:19
  Speaker 1: it seems to me like a vast majority of teams
• 45:21
  Speaker 1: do not have a chance to win the World Series,
• 45:23
  Speaker 1: and the Yankees and Dodgers or just played in the
• 45:25
  Speaker 1: World Series last year due what is your perspective on that,
• 45:28
  Speaker 1: and what are your thoughts about potentially bringing the salary
• 45:31
  Speaker 1: floor up in Major League Baseball but also putting kind
• 45:34
  Speaker 1: of a harder cap or a completely hard cap on
• 45:36
  Speaker 1: the ceiling to have teams operate in a tighter salary range.
• 45:42
  Speaker 4: Obviously a broad question. I'll start with the premise that
• 45:46
  Speaker 4: I think major League Baseball should be and this is
• 45:50
  Speaker 4: either from a union perspective, from a commissioner perspective, from
• 45:54
  Speaker 4: a team owner perspective, and from a player perspective. Agent
• 45:58
  Speaker 4: We all share in this is I always I've started
• 46:01
  Speaker 4: with the premise that Major League Baseball should be the
• 46:04
  Speaker 4: most valuable professional sport in the world. Why would I
• 46:07
  Speaker 4: say that? Have I shared this with you before that
• 46:10
  Speaker 4: I know I go on these diatribes, even on calls.
• 46:12
  Speaker 4: The reason is is you see the value of live
• 46:17
  Speaker 4: content We've been that's been pounded over our heads for
• 46:20
  Speaker 4: the last four or five years. I don't remember the
• 46:23
  Speaker 4: last time I watched live television. You remember when we
• 46:27
  Speaker 4: would watch Seinfeld on Thursday night at seven you had
• 46:30
  Speaker 4: to be there, or the Sopranos on HBO twenty years like,
• 46:35
  Speaker 4: you would make sure you're there, must watch TV. Now
• 46:39
  Speaker 4: everything's Netflix, everything's this. So the value of sports has skyrocketing, right.
• 46:44
  Speaker 4: The value of live content American Idol isn't as good
• 46:48
  Speaker 4: if you already know who won. Some of the you know,
• 46:51
  Speaker 4: like the shows that are competitions that are this are valuable.
• 46:57
  Speaker 4: Major League Baseball has one hundred and ninety of five
• 47:02
  Speaker 4: hour blocks of live content four to five hours. You
• 47:06
  Speaker 4: have your pregame, your game, and then your post game shows.
• 47:10
  Speaker 4: I think the commissioner and I give him the credit
• 47:13
  Speaker 4: for it, because he's the one who had to unilaterally
• 47:15
  Speaker 4: implement it. I think he literally saved the sport. I
• 47:18
  Speaker 4: think he should go in the Hall of Fame. And
• 47:20
  Speaker 4: I've spoken a lot of different negative things on it,
• 47:24
  Speaker 4: but the pitch clock saved the sport. I could not
• 47:28
  Speaker 4: hardly stand going to games, and I had players playing
• 47:31
  Speaker 4: in it when they were three and a half hour,
• 47:33
  Speaker 4: four hour, you know, like ugh, it was drudgery rather
• 47:38
  Speaker 4: than entertainment. And so I think the entertainment quality of
• 47:41
  Speaker 4: Major League baseball is skyrocketed with the pitchclock. We now
• 47:44
  Speaker 4: have one hundred and ninety dates between spring training and
• 47:48
  Speaker 4: regular season, and you add another thirty games whatever postseason,
• 47:55
  Speaker 4: so you have live content more so than anything else
• 47:58
  Speaker 4: in the world. I don't even think we have to
• 48:00
  Speaker 4: be the best days of our lives went for sixty
• 48:03
  Speaker 4: years because it was every day. It didn't have to
• 48:06
  Speaker 4: be gone with the win. It was every day and
• 48:08
  Speaker 4: there was value in that. So I think the sports
• 48:11
  Speaker 4: great on TV. I think we have more games than
• 48:14
  Speaker 4: anyone in the world, and I think that, to me
• 48:19
  Speaker 4: should be where the focus starts, kind of the aggregation
• 48:23
  Speaker 4: and figuring out and I think that you would know
• 48:26
  Speaker 4: more about this than you've been in big markets and
• 48:29
  Speaker 4: small markets and everything else is the teams figuring out
• 48:33
  Speaker 4: what their media strategy is to not only promote the game,
• 48:38
  Speaker 4: but to maximize it not only for the fan base,
• 48:41
  Speaker 4: but for the franchise valuations and everything else. Yeah.
• 48:45
  Speaker 3: I mean, Jeff we talked about in past episodes is
• 48:48
  Speaker 3: I think when you hear the notion of a salary cap,
• 48:51
  Speaker 3: everyone just looks at the top of the salary and
• 48:53
  Speaker 3: the high potential earners. In practice, as you know, there
• 48:57
  Speaker 3: are a lot of teams that are spending very, very
• 48:59
  Speaker 3: little on their team. There's a gap right now between
• 49:02
  Speaker 3: the Marlins in thirtieth place and the Dodgers, which equals
• 49:06
  Speaker 3: the Philadelphia Phillies payroll, which is the fourth biggest payroll
• 49:09
  Speaker 3: in the game. If we could get the teams at
• 49:11
  Speaker 3: the bottom end of the payroll to spend more money,
• 49:13
  Speaker 3: there's actually an opportunity even if we if we truncate
• 49:16
  Speaker 3: the top end a little bit, there'll be a lot
• 49:18
  Speaker 3: more money in the game. I think the whole RSN
• 49:21
  Speaker 3: conversation that you touched on there is such a such
• 49:24
  Speaker 3: a huge issue for the sport right now, as these
• 49:27
  Speaker 3: are significant revenue generators for teams that are starting to erode,
• 49:31
  Speaker 3: falter and go away entirely. I guess the question I
• 49:35
  Speaker 3: had springboard off of what Ryan asked you, was, you
• 49:39
  Speaker 3: know the collective bargaining agreement is going to be up
• 49:41
  Speaker 3: again at the end of twenty twenty six. You are
• 49:43
  Speaker 3: uniquely positioned because you've worked on the union side, you've
• 49:47
  Speaker 3: worked on the club side. If you were advising Tony
• 49:50
  Speaker 3: Clark on the union side and Rob Manford on the
• 49:53
  Speaker 3: commissioner side, like what one or two things. Would you
• 49:55
  Speaker 3: recommend to them as changes that could be materially impactful
• 49:59
  Speaker 3: for the game.
• 50:00
  Speaker 4: Well, you know what's interesting to me is I think
• 50:02
  Speaker 4: you have to get because you mentioned the RSN model,
• 50:04
  Speaker 4: I saw what was it. There was a you know, Manfred,
• 50:09
  Speaker 4: there was an article by Evandrelic tells players they've lost billions.
• 50:14
  Speaker 4: I don't know if you saw that. I did and
• 50:18
  Speaker 4: to me. And then there was another thing. You have
• 50:20
  Speaker 4: the media rights issues and my premise that I think
• 50:23
  Speaker 4: baseball should be the most valuable sport in the world.
• 50:27
  Speaker 4: Why wouldn't even because the thing for me and why
• 50:31
  Speaker 4: is it the most valuable? They play every day, the
• 50:33
  Speaker 4: value of live content right, and the entertainment product has
• 50:37
  Speaker 4: got exponentially better with the pitch clock. So one of
• 50:41
  Speaker 4: the things I was looking at is, you know, esp
• 50:44
  Speaker 4: and MLB had gone back and forth on media rights
• 50:48
  Speaker 4: all this sort of thing. But MLB and now it's
• 50:52
  Speaker 4: back there, back talking again. And I saw something that
• 50:54
  Speaker 4: said it would be expected for only three years. MLB
• 50:58
  Speaker 4: wants to line up all of it's right agreements for
• 51:00
  Speaker 4: after the twenty eight season. At that point, Fox's World
• 51:03
  Speaker 4: Series playoff TNT Sports Right Playoffs conclude as well as
• 51:07
  Speaker 4: MLB's international packages. So to me, it's figuring out from
• 51:14
  Speaker 4: a team side what that media thing looks like, transparency
• 51:19
  Speaker 4: with that right, how much money can be is available
• 51:23
  Speaker 4: in the sport and you could kick the can, I
• 51:27
  Speaker 4: would think to me from a CBA standpoint after the
• 51:31
  Speaker 4: twenty eight season, when we have we know all the
• 51:35
  Speaker 4: chips on the table, why does that make sense? That
• 51:39
  Speaker 4: would be just my thirty thousand foot view of let's
• 51:44
  Speaker 4: get all the rights in this one package. Figure out
• 51:49
  Speaker 4: how to do it. And I'm everything has a price point, right,
• 51:54
  Speaker 4: whether what's for the best of the game, not you know,
• 51:58
  Speaker 4: holding on to from an own ownership standpoint or union standpoint,
• 52:03
  Speaker 4: to arguments that were thirty forty, fifty sixty years ago,
• 52:08
  Speaker 4: but recognizing the opportunity and value that currently exist with
• 52:13
  Speaker 4: what the changing tastes and the way we view content,
• 52:19
  Speaker 4: and the thing of it is there is no replacement
• 52:23
  Speaker 4: for live competition, There is no replacement for sport. It
• 52:27
  Speaker 4: matters because you can't predict it and unless you watch
• 52:31
  Speaker 4: it live, it's not valuable. You can't watch maybe some
• 52:34
  Speaker 4: psychos in New England watch like ness and replays of
• 52:37
  Speaker 4: the Red Sox or something. But sports isn't intended to
• 52:40
  Speaker 4: be watched on tape delaye.
• 52:44
  Speaker 1: My friends and relatives are those psychos? Yet the guys
• 52:47
  Speaker 1: who were and you know on a repeat, Yeah, I
• 52:50
  Speaker 1: critique my brother Sean and others who are on the broadcast. No,
• 52:54
  Speaker 1: in all seriousness, how do you think Major League Baseball
• 52:57
  Speaker 1: does as far as marketing stars? So that's something I
• 53:00
  Speaker 1: think the NBA really pushes. In some cases, the players
• 53:04
  Speaker 1: are as identifiable, maybe even more synonymous with a fan
• 53:08
  Speaker 1: than the team. You know, to people are fan of.
• 53:10
  Speaker 1: Pick your star who's changed teams Lebron James, Kevin Durant
• 53:13
  Speaker 1: and the root for that player regardless of where he is.
• 53:16
  Speaker 1: How do you think MLB has done I.
• 53:18
  Speaker 4: Think MLB has done fine. I think that's an easy,
• 53:21
  Speaker 4: like picking point for the thing that you have to
• 53:24
  Speaker 4: have make a compelling product, not try to falsely push
• 53:29
  Speaker 4: and market things. Make the product itself compelling and it
• 53:34
  Speaker 4: markets itself, meaning like make it avail. Have the availability
• 53:38
  Speaker 4: to view a game like the blackout things has been
• 53:41
  Speaker 4: a huge issue that as you know, things like that,
• 53:44
  Speaker 4: so like doing goofy commercials or do you remember when
• 53:49
  Speaker 4: the drudgery of like the four hour games that and
• 53:55
  Speaker 4: you know, the players dancing, and it was like sideshow
• 53:58
  Speaker 4: entertainment to distract from how awful the product was on
• 54:01
  Speaker 4: the field, to drudge through a nine inning game.
• 54:04
  Speaker 3: I started my career in Colorado, the average game was
• 54:06
  Speaker 3: four and a half hours.
• 54:08
  Speaker 4: No, it's a awful. So I think for me, with
• 54:11
  Speaker 4: the cleanup of the sport, the tempo of it, and
• 54:15
  Speaker 4: all that thing, getting better, it for me has I
• 54:19
  Speaker 4: don't think you have to do fake marketing. I don't
• 54:22
  Speaker 4: think you have to try to trick people in. I
• 54:24
  Speaker 4: think you bring people in by putting a compelling product
• 54:26
  Speaker 4: on the field and then have it available to use.
• 54:30
  Speaker 4: And you know the blackouts or anything else. Did the Braves?
• 54:33
  Speaker 4: You talk about marketing players? That held you?
• 54:36
  Speaker 2: Dad fifty three?
• 54:39
  Speaker 4: Okay, so your perfect age is, well, I'm fifty five
• 54:43
  Speaker 4: and I remember you talk about marketing of a brand.
• 54:47
  Speaker 4: Is when Bad and I were growing up, you couldn't
• 54:50
  Speaker 4: There weren't games on all over. You'd have the Saturday game,
• 54:54
  Speaker 4: you'd have the Cubs. Things like that. Ted Turner buys
• 54:57
  Speaker 4: this little station and calls them America Team. They're horrendous.
• 55:01
  Speaker 4: They're losing one hundred games. I can still name the
• 55:04
  Speaker 4: lineup from like the nineteen eighty one Braves when I'm
• 55:08
  Speaker 4: eleven years old, because we watched them every day and
• 55:12
  Speaker 4: you would see Braves hats all over the country. You know,
• 55:15
  Speaker 4: we're America's team. Well I don't know, you're sixty and
• 55:19
  Speaker 4: one oh two. But they were on every day and
• 55:22
  Speaker 4: it was a really compelling storyline that that's what I
• 55:26
  Speaker 4: believe is, you know, And they were one of two
• 55:31
  Speaker 4: cubs were kind of on WGN, but every Braves game,
• 55:34
  Speaker 4: I remember my mom's saying, we're watching the Braves again.
• 55:37
  Speaker 4: They're on again. I was like, now, Mom, one sixty
• 55:40
  Speaker 4: two or on. And so I think that's how you
• 55:44
  Speaker 4: market something, is put a compelling product. Like I live
• 55:48
  Speaker 4: in the Sarasota Bradenton area and blacked out on all
• 55:54
  Speaker 4: the I never watched the Raids and they're local team
• 55:57
  Speaker 4: because it's blacked out. I'd have to go steinbern er
• 56:00
  Speaker 4: Field to watch him. But nonetheless I never watch him
• 56:04
  Speaker 4: on TV.
• 56:06
  Speaker 3: Jeff shifting gears for a second to your current career.
• 56:10
  Speaker 3: You're now advising Buster Posium. You touched on it earlier.
• 56:13
  Speaker 3: You guys are kind of zigging where everyone else is zagging.
• 56:17
  Speaker 3: How influential. Have you been in supporting Buster towards those goals?
• 56:21
  Speaker 3: And you know, talk a little bit about the acquisition
• 56:24
  Speaker 3: of Raphael Devers. We've talked about that on the show.
• 56:26
  Speaker 3: From kind of the controversial side on Boston, how was
• 56:29
  Speaker 3: the acquiring him side of that?
• 56:32
  Speaker 4: Well, I think the acquiring side is we need a
• 56:34
  Speaker 4: middle of the lineup hitter and you just try to
• 56:37
  Speaker 4: make moves. It's not you know, no one's trying to
• 56:41
  Speaker 4: win a surplus game. We're trying to entertain fans and
• 56:44
  Speaker 4: win the division. And it's really as simple as that.
• 56:49
  Speaker 4: I think from you know, I've known Buster probably since
• 56:51
  Speaker 4: he's been eighteen nineteen years old, and he was a
• 56:55
  Speaker 4: guy the late great Mike Martin told me the first time,
• 56:59
  Speaker 4: you know, he and I talked, He's like, this one's different,
• 57:02
  Speaker 4: and you know, he'd had, you know, hundreds of great
• 57:06
  Speaker 4: players come through Florida State. And I remember meeting Buster
• 57:10
  Speaker 4: for the first time and I was you could tell
• 57:13
  Speaker 4: there was something special. And it's interesting you go back
• 57:18
  Speaker 4: to the draft. This will be a kind of a
• 57:21
  Speaker 4: cool thing for you, Ryan, and for you that is
• 57:24
  Speaker 4: we were talking about the draft. I probably I don't
• 57:27
  Speaker 4: know say seventy five first round picks over twenty six
• 57:30
  Speaker 4: twenty however, a lot, and there were three players in
• 57:36
  Speaker 4: that whole time. I told you about the anxiety and
• 57:38
  Speaker 4: the you know, oh, the social media is putting stuff
• 57:41
  Speaker 4: out everything. I had three players out of my entire
• 57:45
  Speaker 4: time doing the draft. And I've told this story many
• 57:48
  Speaker 4: times before because I think it's so instructive. I had
• 57:51
  Speaker 4: three players that never asked me one time, not even
• 57:56
  Speaker 4: right until up in the draft like draft day, not
• 57:59
  Speaker 4: one time, nor their parents where do you think he's
• 58:02
  Speaker 4: going to be drafted? Or where am I going to
• 58:05
  Speaker 4: be drafted? Or who was there at the game today?
• 58:08
  Speaker 4: You know, great game, bad game. They never asked me
• 58:11
  Speaker 4: one time, where do you think I'll be drafted? You
• 58:14
  Speaker 4: know who those three players were, Buster, He's one of them,
• 58:21
  Speaker 4: Trey Turner and Michael Waka and meaning like those were
• 58:28
  Speaker 4: guys that had real comp Those are special people, because
• 58:31
  Speaker 4: I guarantee you that's true interconfidence. I saw Buster. Trey
• 58:37
  Speaker 4: got thrown out of a double header at Clemson. It's
• 58:41
  Speaker 4: his junior year. The place is stuffed with all guys
• 58:44
  Speaker 4: like youth that I mean, crowded, and he did something
• 58:48
  Speaker 4: that the ump misinterpreted he shouldn't have been thrown out.
• 58:51
  Speaker 4: But in college he gets thrown out, Like the first
• 58:53
  Speaker 4: inning of game one, it's freezing cold. His grandfather is there.
• 58:57
  Speaker 4: He has one leg, sitting in the stand and freezing.
• 59:02
  Speaker 4: And I called Trey. I said, he didn't ask me
• 59:06
  Speaker 4: one time? Hey, well this helped me? Or he's just
• 59:08
  Speaker 4: gonna hurt me. You know, what are people gonna think?
• 59:11
  Speaker 4: Never even crossed his mind. He just he I remember
• 59:14
  Speaker 4: him answering the phone. I said, what are you doing?
• 59:16
  Speaker 4: It's like watching the game from the bus, And I said,
• 59:20
  Speaker 4: where's your grand day? He's like sitting out in the stands.
• 59:23
  Speaker 4: I'm like, oh, and it's like a thirty five degree
• 59:26
  Speaker 4: day and it's just awful. And he didn't He only
• 59:30
  Speaker 4: thing he said to me is I never should have
• 59:32
  Speaker 4: been thrown out there. They took what I did, and
• 59:36
  Speaker 4: I was like, and I'm like, that is confidence. He
• 59:39
  Speaker 4: didn't worry that there were one hundred people there to
• 59:42
  Speaker 4: see him. I saw walk. I remember he got just
• 59:46
  Speaker 4: throttled two weeks before the dri or Yeah, it was
• 59:50
  Speaker 4: late in the year by like Kansas or Kansas State
• 59:53
  Speaker 4: and throttled and they it's almost like they had his
• 59:56
  Speaker 4: pitches or they had a chick like they weren't missing
• 59:58
  Speaker 4: any of his change ups and just had dinner, didn't
• 1:00:04
  Speaker 4: ask me, you know who was there? Is this going
• 1:00:07
  Speaker 4: to hurt me for the draft? He's like, I got
• 1:00:09
  Speaker 4: to be better next time, And I'm like, those are true,
• 1:00:13
  Speaker 4: Like the parents were the same way. Apples don't fall
• 1:00:16
  Speaker 4: far from trees, and I knew all three of those.
• 1:00:21
  Speaker 4: I always tell that story because it so impressed me
• 1:00:23
  Speaker 4: that they had the inner confidence not looking what their
• 1:00:27
  Speaker 4: rankings were or what people were saying on social media
• 1:00:31
  Speaker 4: or what you know, recruiting thing is pushing them as
• 1:00:34
  Speaker 4: the next thing. They knew who they were, and that
• 1:00:37
  Speaker 4: to me was like the interesting when you talk about
• 1:00:40
  Speaker 4: the different families or different ways people react to the draft,
• 1:00:44
  Speaker 4: that was a really critical indicator of success for me.
• 1:00:47
  Speaker 4: Guys that will be able to withstand the unquestionable adversity
• 1:00:54
  Speaker 4: that's going to come towards you in a career.
• 1:00:57
  Speaker 2: Jeff.
• 1:00:58
  Speaker 1: One of the things were jealous of from NBA perspective
• 1:01:01
  Speaker 1: is your ability to negotiate different things into player contracts.
• 1:01:05
  Speaker 1: In the NBA, I think they're only eleven or twelve
• 1:01:07
  Speaker 1: things to negotiate and a few of them are the
• 1:01:10
  Speaker 1: data signs how many years of the player is getting,
• 1:01:12
  Speaker 1: the salary, the payment schedule. So it's pretty cut and paste.
• 1:01:15
  Speaker 1: It's pretty boring, to be honest with you. That pulled
• 1:01:18
  Speaker 1: a great example for this show. I think Troy Gloss
• 1:01:21
  Speaker 1: accorded that at an annual equestrian expense. Are there any
• 1:01:26
  Speaker 1: things like that that you remember either you negotiated or
• 1:01:28
  Speaker 1: you asked for and rejected, or you've heard your other
• 1:01:31
  Speaker 1: colleagues in the agent industry asking for. Because I think
• 1:01:34
  Speaker 1: that's fascinating for somebody who you know, basically just fills
• 1:01:37
  Speaker 1: in a few numbers and then signs it.
• 1:01:38
  Speaker 4: And it's interesting. But but you know, the thing of
• 1:01:40
  Speaker 4: it is, ron I don't have anything specific that pops
• 1:01:44
  Speaker 4: up that you know, obviously the no trade clauses and
• 1:01:48
  Speaker 4: the you know, the housing allowance tickets, you know, like
• 1:01:52
  Speaker 4: transportation for family members, different things like that for say
• 1:01:56
  Speaker 4: a guy that's out of the country or you know,
• 1:01:59
  Speaker 4: that's sort of thing. But more to me to your point,
• 1:02:03
  Speaker 4: and I think some of this is being lost. Dad
• 1:02:05
  Speaker 4: knows this. The draft used to be a lot more
• 1:02:08
  Speaker 4: fun in baseball than it is now. They boxed it
• 1:02:11
  Speaker 4: into what you said of like you know, agents high
• 1:02:14
  Speaker 4: five when we get slot or when we get like
• 1:02:17
  Speaker 4: the creative, and I remember it even goes back. You
• 1:02:20
  Speaker 4: remember when I think THEO is probably responsible for initiating
• 1:02:24
  Speaker 4: a lot of the other teams. You remember when they
• 1:02:26
  Speaker 4: were going on that kind of journey of spending whatever
• 1:02:30
  Speaker 4: they wanted on the draft ad because it was the
• 1:02:32
  Speaker 4: cheapest way. And you know, he would have paid if
• 1:02:35
  Speaker 4: I could have somehow gotten, you know, And I'm thrilled
• 1:02:37
  Speaker 4: Buster ended up with the Giants. It was a match
• 1:02:40
  Speaker 4: made in heaven from day one. Is I think THEO
• 1:02:44
  Speaker 4: would have paid whatever he would have paid. You know,
• 1:02:47
  Speaker 4: people would ask me, well, what is what's Buster looking
• 1:02:50
  Speaker 4: for in the draft, and I said, I don't know it.
• 1:02:52
  Speaker 4: You know, Molina just signed a sixty million dollars deal,
• 1:02:55
  Speaker 4: and I think Buster's talents ahead of his, and you know,
• 1:02:59
  Speaker 4: knowing response I would get. But THEO was going down
• 1:03:03
  Speaker 4: that path a lot, meaning like spinning whatever it took,
• 1:03:06
  Speaker 4: and a lot of the I don't know, the gamesmanship
• 1:03:11
  Speaker 4: of the draft has now disappeared with this kind of
• 1:03:15
  Speaker 4: boxing in system. What for better or for worse, it
• 1:03:18
  Speaker 4: just wasn't as fun for me. Well, I think I
• 1:03:21
  Speaker 4: think that new system.
• 1:03:22
  Speaker 3: Yeah, Jeff, And it's it's it's a it's a link
• 1:03:25
  Speaker 3: that's tying this whole conversation to together, which is the
• 1:03:27
  Speaker 3: game has gotten a little bit more formulaic right where
• 1:03:30
  Speaker 3: it's there is less freedom to negotiate, kind of unencumbered.
• 1:03:35
  Speaker 3: It's tougher to squeak in the equestrian account for Troy
• 1:03:38
  Speaker 3: Glaus's wife into these contracts anymore. You just don't see
• 1:03:41
  Speaker 3: that see that as frequently, Jeff. I I want to
• 1:03:44
  Speaker 3: give you some airtime here. You're more than just an agent.
• 1:03:48
  Speaker 3: You know, we touched on into the intro. You've been
• 1:03:51
  Speaker 3: very involved with the V Foundation. I know your wife
• 1:03:53
  Speaker 3: is very involved with the VV Foundation. They also a
• 1:03:57
  Speaker 3: racehorse owner. I'd love to give you a chance to
• 1:04:01
  Speaker 3: give the fans a little slice into here we go,
• 1:04:04
  Speaker 3: the hat's coming on, like what iss like as you've
• 1:04:08
  Speaker 3: now transitioned from being an agent where you're spending some
• 1:04:11
  Speaker 3: of your free time. And then also i'd love to
• 1:04:13
  Speaker 3: hear the story of why you left the agency because
• 1:04:16
  Speaker 3: I think it's very informative to the listeners.
• 1:04:18
  Speaker 4: Well, and a lot of it was I was, I
• 1:04:22
  Speaker 4: don't know, it felt like it had run as course
• 1:04:24
  Speaker 4: for me, I talked one of the things where I
• 1:04:28
  Speaker 4: didn't feel like it was able to make the difference
• 1:04:29
  Speaker 4: that I wanted. And that's why I did a lot
• 1:04:31
  Speaker 4: of the media stuff with only just to kind of
• 1:04:34
  Speaker 4: tell all those stories, so to speak. And it felt
• 1:04:39
  Speaker 4: like it was just the right time for a change.
• 1:04:41
  Speaker 4: I had had wonderful clients, wonderful employees and colleagues and
• 1:04:46
  Speaker 4: co workers and all that, and I love being an agent.
• 1:04:50
  Speaker 4: I just didn't love being an agent, you know. I
• 1:04:52
  Speaker 4: go back to the Hater deal. I lost that arbitration case.
• 1:04:55
  Speaker 4: That and I probably lost more arbitration cases than anyone
• 1:04:59
  Speaker 4: over the last twenty years. And we were a hundred
• 1:05:05
  Speaker 4: What we were seeking was one hundred thousand dollars more
• 1:05:08
  Speaker 4: than what papal Bond had gotten eleven years earlier.
• 1:05:11
  Speaker 3: And can I just say, Jeff may have lost arbitration cases,
• 1:05:15
  Speaker 3: but you never lost the principal battle. And that's why
• 1:05:17
  Speaker 3: I said that about you earlier. You went to bat
• 1:05:20
  Speaker 3: for your clients when you felt the principles were on
• 1:05:22
  Speaker 3: your side, regardless of whether you were handicapped to win
• 1:05:25
  Speaker 3: or lose these cases. So I just want to put
• 1:05:27
  Speaker 3: that in a little bit of context it was.
• 1:05:29
  Speaker 4: I appreciate that, but the fact like I made the decision.
• 1:05:32
  Speaker 4: I remember sitting there at the table and I was,
• 1:05:35
  Speaker 4: you know, watching people running out of the rooms. That
• 1:05:38
  Speaker 4: saves the value by which our saves of the currency
• 1:05:41
  Speaker 4: by which relievers or value bad. You know, in this academic,
• 1:05:45
  Speaker 4: smart guy world, there couldn't be anything further from the truth.
• 1:05:48
  Speaker 4: And I was sitting there and I'm like leaning back
• 1:05:50
  Speaker 4: and I'm watching this and I'm like, I'm gonna you know,
• 1:05:53
  Speaker 4: I've snatched defeat from the jaws of victory here and
• 1:05:57
  Speaker 4: I'm going to lose this case. And it's insane that
• 1:06:00
  Speaker 4: I'm losing this case. And that was to me. I
• 1:06:03
  Speaker 4: was like, we're going to see this through. And you know,
• 1:06:07
  Speaker 4: I'd rather Mowlawns in Florida then just cave into it
• 1:06:12
  Speaker 4: because it's not worth it to me not to try
• 1:06:16
  Speaker 4: to do what's right there. And so, you know, leaving
• 1:06:19
  Speaker 4: was no. It just felt like the right time. But
• 1:06:22
  Speaker 4: since I have been out obviously working with Buster trying
• 1:06:26
  Speaker 4: to you know, we were very aggressive Buster and Zach Manassian,
• 1:06:32
  Speaker 4: who is a dude of a general manager. I think
• 1:06:34
  Speaker 4: he's been unbelievable. The kid that started out, you know,
• 1:06:38
  Speaker 4: as a club. He grew up in the sport. I
• 1:06:41
  Speaker 4: call it like that. You know, you have your corn
• 1:06:42
  Speaker 4: Faery Hires. I look at it like a Chick fil A,
• 1:06:46
  Speaker 4: meaning you can't that. Ryan can't go and buy a
• 1:06:50
  Speaker 4: Chick fil A, even with all his NBA money. You
• 1:06:53
  Speaker 4: know why because he doesn't have any history or background
• 1:06:56
  Speaker 4: with Chick fil A, and they have like the culture
• 1:06:59
  Speaker 4: of that. You see it it resonates every time. I
• 1:07:02
  Speaker 4: was just in Albany, and not a great area of Albany,
• 1:07:06
  Speaker 4: coming back from Saratoga where my horse was scratched with
• 1:07:10
  Speaker 4: an emergency surgery, so not in the best of moods.
• 1:07:13
  Speaker 4: I go into a Chick fil A and the place
• 1:07:15
  Speaker 4: is beautiful. They got an older gentleman sweeping things up,
• 1:07:18
  Speaker 4: refilling my soda. The point of it is you have
• 1:07:21
  Speaker 4: to have experience working for Chick fil A and have
• 1:07:25
  Speaker 4: grown up in the industry, learned it from the ground up.
• 1:07:29
  Speaker 4: And I think that's a huge benefit. I think when
• 1:07:31
  Speaker 4: we got into the outsider world, you remember that it
• 1:07:34
  Speaker 4: was a it was almost a check mark against you
• 1:07:38
  Speaker 4: if you had a lot of experience in scouting, or
• 1:07:42
  Speaker 4: if you had a lot of experience in playing, which
• 1:07:44
  Speaker 4: is so bonkers to me. That all right, but you
• 1:07:48
  Speaker 4: can do really good math, or you can program this
• 1:07:51
  Speaker 4: or that. But this guy's been in the trenches for
• 1:07:55
  Speaker 4: twenty years. I take the guy in the trenches for
• 1:07:57
  Speaker 4: the last twenty years. I don't think this is Baseball
• 1:08:01
  Speaker 4: teams are like global hedge funds that you know, the
• 1:08:04
  Speaker 4: complexity and all that, and so I look at you know,
• 1:08:10
  Speaker 4: like what Zach has done, what Buster has done, And
• 1:08:14
  Speaker 4: to me, I think it'll be the new wave of
• 1:08:16
  Speaker 4: what general managers will be. I think the pendulum will
• 1:08:20
  Speaker 4: swing back. And I remember thinking this because, oh the Giants,
• 1:08:24
  Speaker 4: this is such a dramatic move, and I'm like, dramatic move.
• 1:08:29
  Speaker 4: It's he graduated at the top of his class, you know,
• 1:08:33
  Speaker 4: academically high school, was a college academic All American in
• 1:08:38
  Speaker 4: addition to winning every single award. And then he caught
• 1:08:44
  Speaker 4: for twelve years three World Series champions, calling every pitch,
• 1:08:48
  Speaker 4: managing the EQ of a pitching staff. Dad, you know
• 1:08:52
  Speaker 4: how hard that is, the EQ to manage a team
• 1:08:56
  Speaker 4: hit four hole and squat. Yet he's unqualified to run
• 1:09:00
  Speaker 4: a baseball team. That was to me like a real
• 1:09:04
  Speaker 4: tipping point. In my mind at lean now, it's like
• 1:09:07
  Speaker 4: running a I don't know, I'll take the academic all
• 1:09:09
  Speaker 4: American that has been a catcher for twelve years and
• 1:09:12
  Speaker 4: going into the Hall of Fame.
• 1:09:15
  Speaker 3: Well, Jeff, I'll just throw one one observation and you
• 1:09:18
  Speaker 3: tell me if this fits Buster.
• 1:09:19
  Speaker 2: But I think the way that.
• 1:09:21
  Speaker 3: Doesn't work is if he feels like he has to
• 1:09:23
  Speaker 3: have all the answers. And I've often thought when nobody
• 1:09:26
  Speaker 3: has all the answers right right. But I do feel
• 1:09:29
  Speaker 3: as if there's a lot of people in the game
• 1:09:31
  Speaker 3: today when an owner asks you a question, how do
• 1:09:34
  Speaker 3: you interpret it? Is it my responsibility to give him
• 1:09:36
  Speaker 3: my best answer or the best answer? And I think
• 1:09:39
  Speaker 3: a lot of people let their egos get in the
• 1:09:41
  Speaker 3: way and they feel like it has to be from them.
• 1:09:43
  Speaker 3: So I would just say, you know, Buster gets hired,
• 1:09:46
  Speaker 3: but the first two things he does is he brings
• 1:09:49
  Speaker 3: you in and he brings in Bobby Evans, who is
• 1:09:50
  Speaker 3: a longtime general manager, won all of those World Series
• 1:09:53
  Speaker 3: rings in San Francisco, was one of those candidates who
• 1:09:56
  Speaker 3: probably deserved other opportunities that you referenced earlier. So rounding
• 1:10:00
  Speaker 3: himself with the intelligence, the experience to whatever sense he lacked.
• 1:10:05
  Speaker 3: He surrounded himself with the right guys. He had the
• 1:10:07
  Speaker 3: humility to do that. And he's tapping into you guys.
• 1:10:10
  Speaker 3: So if he insisted on doing everything by himself, he
• 1:10:13
  Speaker 3: probably still would have been successful because he's incredibly talented.
• 1:10:16
  Speaker 3: It just may have taken him a little bit longer.
• 1:10:18
  Speaker 3: So no, I want to look at people.
• 1:10:20
  Speaker 4: Yeah, it's the players who are successful. And here's the
• 1:10:24
  Speaker 4: thing about Buster is and this is different when you
• 1:10:27
  Speaker 4: Buster doesn't. And I can understand now that seeing this,
• 1:10:31
  Speaker 4: these are really good jobs for you know, Ryan, you
• 1:10:35
  Speaker 4: and Bad you guys were high level executives. Those are
• 1:10:38
  Speaker 4: really good jobs. And you know, what do they say
• 1:10:41
  Speaker 4: about most general managers is their main interest is making
• 1:10:44
  Speaker 4: sure they remain the general manager. Buster has the advantage
• 1:10:47
  Speaker 4: of not that, meaning he's going to truly do the
• 1:10:51
  Speaker 4: best for a franchise with no concern of what. He
• 1:10:54
  Speaker 4: doesn't need the job, right, his ego doesn't need the job.
• 1:10:59
  Speaker 4: The you know, financially doesn't need the job. He's doing
• 1:11:02
  Speaker 4: it because he loves San Francisco and loves the San
• 1:11:04
  Speaker 4: Francisco Giants. And that's a pretty powerful position to be
• 1:11:07
  Speaker 4: starting from. Uh and I think in the one of
• 1:11:11
  Speaker 4: the things too. That and I've had more empathy on
• 1:11:14
  Speaker 4: this side because I would always make fun of people like, no,
• 1:11:17
  Speaker 4: I'm not circling back, I can't even listen to your
• 1:11:20
  Speaker 4: nonsensical jargon anymore, and this or that. But having a
• 1:11:26
  Speaker 4: job in baseball, having a job in basketball, they're really
• 1:11:29
  Speaker 4: cool jobs, right, And it's like you have to join
• 1:11:33
  Speaker 4: in the party line. You can't be too disruptive or
• 1:11:36
  Speaker 4: you find yourself disruptive than selling like insurance for state
• 1:11:40
  Speaker 4: farm or something, meaning you have to kind of acquiesce
• 1:11:46
  Speaker 4: to what everyone else is doing. And I think that's
• 1:11:48
  Speaker 4: one of the things that makes us unique.
• 1:11:51
  Speaker 3: Jeff, you've always been in a cosmopolitan man outside of
• 1:11:54
  Speaker 3: advising Buster. What have you been working on recently?
• 1:11:57
  Speaker 4: Well, And I can tell you this, I know you
• 1:11:59
  Speaker 4: some of my different entrepreneurial ventures icon Racing dot com.
• 1:12:03
  Speaker 4: Horse racing has been one of my most enjoyable family
• 1:12:07
  Speaker 4: things that I've ever done in my life. Jason's a
• 1:12:10
  Speaker 4: great partner on this as well. But it's the the
• 1:12:14
  Speaker 4: idea of the horse ownership, Ryan being there, living in
• 1:12:17
  Speaker 4: Louisville is it's an unbelievable family sport. I sent you
• 1:12:21
  Speaker 4: a picture with that of our whole family there at
• 1:12:24
  Speaker 4: the derby. The whole family was in Saratoga. We had
• 1:12:26
  Speaker 4: a little off day and where we went to Lake George,
• 1:12:31
  Speaker 4: and it's just you go to the barn waking up
• 1:12:33
  Speaker 4: at Saratoga or Churchill downs every morning. Ryan, I've rented
• 1:12:37
  Speaker 4: a house right on Wizard, right across the street from
• 1:12:39
  Speaker 4: the derby. My whole family was there. My brother sister
• 1:12:42
  Speaker 4: came up every morning. We're up at sunrise, get a
• 1:12:45
  Speaker 4: cup of coffee. You're on the backstretch seeing all meaning
• 1:12:49
  Speaker 4: where the barns are. You see all the derby horses,
• 1:12:52
  Speaker 4: the great like iconic trainers and jockeys and these majestic
• 1:12:56
  Speaker 4: animals in the back. Literally, my wake up at Churchill
• 1:13:00
  Speaker 4: or Saratoga in the morning might be the favorite thing
• 1:13:03
  Speaker 4: I've ever done in my life. And what's so good
• 1:13:06
  Speaker 4: about it, you experienced a little bit with your buddies,
• 1:13:09
  Speaker 4: own own almighty is it's a real family event, like
• 1:13:13
  Speaker 4: everyone can participate in it. So it's been a remarkable.
• 1:13:17
  Speaker 4: That part's been like a lifelong dream of mine. And
• 1:13:20
  Speaker 4: to actually have a horse run in the derby was remarkable.
• 1:13:24
  Speaker 4: So that's one of the things but I also and
• 1:13:28
  Speaker 4: I showed it to that, I sent some and I
• 1:13:30
  Speaker 4: did an only podcast, and I've done some other things.
• 1:13:34
  Speaker 4: But I invented a new batting helmet. Ryan, can I
• 1:13:39
  Speaker 4: show it here? Do you guys mind it? We have time? Yeah,
• 1:13:43
  Speaker 4: so one of the things, so the horse racing thing
• 1:13:45
  Speaker 4: will go to the side icon racing dot com. It's
• 1:13:49
  Speaker 4: unbelievable to be a part of I was at, you know.
• 1:13:53
  Speaker 4: And one of the other reasons too. I have a
• 1:13:54
  Speaker 4: seventeen year old son now loves playing baseball. We were
• 1:13:58
  Speaker 4: at a big tournament in Atlanta, and you know, I
• 1:14:01
  Speaker 4: see a kid and this is on one of the podcasts.
• 1:14:04
  Speaker 4: We're walking around, not even a game. My son's planing
• 1:14:07
  Speaker 4: and I see a guy throwing ninety ninety four sixteen,
• 1:14:10
  Speaker 4: seventeen years old that no one has any idea where
• 1:14:13
  Speaker 4: it's going. Right, kid gets dusted by a ball, goes down.
• 1:14:19
  Speaker 4: Next pitch is a slider. He's doing this. Then I
• 1:14:22
  Speaker 4: hear a parent or somebody from this let's go stay
• 1:14:25
  Speaker 4: in there, And I'm like, you stay in there, dude.
• 1:14:29
  Speaker 4: Everybody knows. This pitcher knows, and the hitter knows. He
• 1:14:33
  Speaker 4: has no idea where it's going and he ends up
• 1:14:37
  Speaker 4: striking out. Next kid comes up to bat, and you know,
• 1:14:41
  Speaker 4: the balls all over the place. He's three feet off
• 1:14:44
  Speaker 4: the plate and maybe fouls one off. Parents are how
• 1:14:48
  Speaker 4: hard is he throwing? And then like somebody with the
• 1:14:50
  Speaker 4: gun is yelling that was ninety three and people think
• 1:14:53
  Speaker 4: it's good even though it's like awful. And so I'm
• 1:14:57
  Speaker 4: watching this kid's three feet off the play. He fouls
• 1:15:00
  Speaker 4: off one pitch and eventually walks, meaning like if you
• 1:15:05
  Speaker 4: were going to take against this kid, you would eventually
• 1:15:08
  Speaker 4: probably get a walk. So that's what happened. When he walks,
• 1:15:12
  Speaker 4: I watch him take off an elbow guard, a risk guard,
• 1:15:17
  Speaker 4: a handguard, and a shin guard. Like I mean, he's
• 1:15:20
  Speaker 4: stacking stuff up on the plate, right, And then he
• 1:15:24
  Speaker 4: gets to first base and he puts on oven mits
• 1:15:28
  Speaker 4: and I'm thinking the one thing that's missing, the illogical
• 1:15:31
  Speaker 4: part of this. And he had the sea flap that
• 1:15:33
  Speaker 4: goes down there, but you can still eat a ball,
• 1:15:36
  Speaker 4: and the hitter knows even with the sea flap it's
• 1:15:38
  Speaker 4: not that effective. So what I did is like this
• 1:15:42
  Speaker 4: is illogical. And you remember Joe Lawrence fed yes the ballplayer,
• 1:15:47
  Speaker 4: he's made a done unbelievably. Well, he's one of the
• 1:15:50
  Speaker 4: founders of Marucci and I'd known Joe forever and the
• 1:15:55
  Speaker 4: Sense sold out from Marucci All that had a sports
• 1:15:58
  Speaker 4: protective gear company, and so I designed something in my mind.
• 1:16:02
  Speaker 4: He connected me with his engineer. The companies called Legion Sports.
• 1:16:05
  Speaker 4: They make protective football gear and now helmets and everything else.
• 1:16:10
  Speaker 4: But I was thinking to myself, someone needs to do.
• 1:16:12
  Speaker 4: It's illogical not to protect the one thing that is
• 1:16:18
  Speaker 4: a traumatic type of injury. You got elbow, wrist, hand,
• 1:16:22
  Speaker 4: all that. So I created I called it the Equalizer.
• 1:16:25
  Speaker 4: I'm going to put it on for you guys real quick,
• 1:16:29
  Speaker 4: can you hear me?
• 1:16:30
  Speaker 2: Yes?
• 1:16:30
  Speaker 4: Yeah, So this the vision's perfect, no different than a
• 1:16:35
  Speaker 4: sea flat. But a ball I can roll, a ball
• 1:16:39
  Speaker 4: cannot get through here. So no matter what level, if
• 1:16:42
  Speaker 4: you see it from the side, my son's using it
• 1:16:44
  Speaker 4: now and some of his teammates are using it now.
• 1:16:48
  Speaker 4: But this helmet what I hope in the long run,
• 1:16:52
  Speaker 4: one it increases youth participation from his is it creates
• 1:17:02
  Speaker 4: where you're not going to get hit in the face.
• 1:17:04
  Speaker 4: And what was the effectiveness of that one kid I
• 1:17:07
  Speaker 4: was watching that was throwing hard. It was the rational
• 1:17:10
  Speaker 4: fear that he was creating. And if you can mitigate
• 1:17:15
  Speaker 4: that does kind of down the rabbit hole. Does that
• 1:17:18
  Speaker 4: place an importance back on skill before power? If you
• 1:17:22
  Speaker 4: can mitigate the effectiveness of unskilled velocity, does that then
• 1:17:28
  Speaker 4: make the emphasis go back on people that can pitch
• 1:17:33
  Speaker 4: and know where it's going. And because now Bad knows
• 1:17:37
  Speaker 4: this from his days as an executive, there's an endless
• 1:17:40
  Speaker 4: supply of people that throw high velocity. There are you know,
• 1:17:47
  Speaker 4: gems and academies in every little small town in the
• 1:17:50
  Speaker 4: country where somebody's doing a throwing program that teaches velocity
• 1:17:54
  Speaker 4: before skill. And it's very hard to develop skill when
• 1:18:00
  Speaker 4: your whole life has been nothing but the search for power.
• 1:18:04
  Speaker 4: And so, you know, I hope that has the impact
• 1:18:07
  Speaker 4: on the game too. And I've seen it was funny
• 1:18:11
  Speaker 4: a local guy here who had Ian Desmond, local high
• 1:18:16
  Speaker 4: school coach. He goes, you know, when I was in
• 1:18:19
  Speaker 4: you know, Millage, a handful of big leaguers did have
• 1:18:21
  Speaker 4: come from here, and I was showing him the helmet
• 1:18:24
  Speaker 4: it's been in works for about a year. He goes,
• 1:18:27
  Speaker 4: you know, there was a kid. I forget the guy's name,
• 1:18:31
  Speaker 4: but he goes, he was probably fourteen fifteen, I thought
• 1:18:33
  Speaker 4: he was the best player I ever had. And this
• 1:18:35
  Speaker 4: is the guy that's had seven or eight Big leaguers.
• 1:18:37
  Speaker 4: He got hit in the face when he was fifteen,
• 1:18:40
  Speaker 4: like had to have his jaw rewired, like an orbital
• 1:18:45
  Speaker 4: bone surgery and some teeth. It was a bad one
• 1:18:48
  Speaker 4: and the kid never played baseball again. And so you think, oh,
• 1:18:53
  Speaker 4: he's not tough enough or anything. I said, what happened
• 1:18:55
  Speaker 4: to the kid? He goes, well, he was a Division
• 1:18:58
  Speaker 4: one quarterback for four years, meaning you're not tough. You
• 1:19:02
  Speaker 4: have to be to do that. Yet he wasn't willing
• 1:19:05
  Speaker 4: with that. And so I feel like the equalizer named
• 1:19:10
  Speaker 4: because I think it levels the playing field when you
• 1:19:13
  Speaker 4: and it's always same side, so you see so many
• 1:19:16
  Speaker 4: platoons when somebody when you have the platoons split bad,
• 1:19:20
  Speaker 4: it's not because the guy can't hit left handers. It's
• 1:19:23
  Speaker 4: because he's this way or this way, like switch hitters
• 1:19:27
  Speaker 4: don't have those uncomfortable at bats. And the equalizer, I
• 1:19:30
  Speaker 4: think hopefully will mitigate the nonsensical platoons that have you know,
• 1:19:37
  Speaker 4: overrun the game too. So that's my theory behind it. Anyway,
• 1:19:40
  Speaker 4: what do you.
• 1:19:40
  Speaker 3: Think I mean I think the part you said that
• 1:19:44
  Speaker 3: really resonates with me, Jeff, is is fear. Once a
• 1:19:48
  Speaker 3: kid or a player, whether he's at the major league level,
• 1:19:51
  Speaker 3: minor league level, or amateur level, is scared. It is
• 1:19:54
  Speaker 3: really tough to coach that out of somebody because the
• 1:19:57
  Speaker 3: fear is rational. You know, getting hit by a baseball
• 1:19:59
  Speaker 3: hurts a lot, regardless of where you get hurt. But
• 1:20:02
  Speaker 3: when irreparable damage can be done, I think it really
• 1:20:06
  Speaker 3: instills a lot of fear in kids. And most kids
• 1:20:08
  Speaker 3: who have that fear in them, they do not bounce
• 1:20:10
  Speaker 3: back from that so.
• 1:20:11
  Speaker 4: Well, and I want to prevent it. Mean, it's illogical
• 1:20:17
  Speaker 4: to wear an elbow guard, but not the equalizer. The
• 1:20:21
  Speaker 4: elbow guard. You get hit in the elbow, that could be,
• 1:20:27
  Speaker 4: but you get hit in the face, that ain't worth it.
• 1:20:30
  Speaker 4: And people give away at bats because it's not worth it.
• 1:20:33
  Speaker 4: That meaning, like, no one likes to get hit. But
• 1:20:37
  Speaker 4: as a parent or as anything else, you're not concerned
• 1:20:40
  Speaker 4: with your kid getting drilled in the back him eating
• 1:20:43
  Speaker 4: one in the face. You are, and you know all
• 1:20:46
  Speaker 4: the stuff, And it'll be interesting to see where we go.
• 1:20:49
  Speaker 4: But I've got an unbelievable engineer, a guy named Curtis Cruz.
• 1:20:54
  Speaker 4: We've got manufacturing up and we're kind of in the
• 1:20:57
  Speaker 4: beta phase where we're seeding the helmet out to different things.
• 1:21:00
  Speaker 4: My son has actually uh got he's playing in the
• 1:21:03
  Speaker 4: East Coast Pro showcase uh here in a couple of
• 1:21:06
  Speaker 4: weeks in Birmingham, and he's gonna wear it there. He's
• 1:21:11
  Speaker 4: kind of my guinea pig.
• 1:21:13
  Speaker 2: I hope he has a good agent.
• 1:21:15
  Speaker 4: I don't know if he didn't. He doesn't even need
• 1:21:18
  Speaker 4: one of that. He what he needs is uh, what
• 1:21:20
  Speaker 4: he needs is some knocks when he's there, something like that.
• 1:21:23
  Speaker 4: But it's uh, that's been a fun part too, where
• 1:21:26
  Speaker 4: I where I hope it impacts the game in a
• 1:21:28
  Speaker 4: positive way. So we got horse racing and helmets and
• 1:21:32
  Speaker 4: the v Foundation stuff and Seawan's just Seawan is a
• 1:21:36
  Speaker 4: huge advocate of it too, Ryan like he's been uh
• 1:21:40
  Speaker 4: you know, I thoroughly enjoyed all the time I've got
• 1:21:43
  Speaker 4: to spend with him over the last few years. And uh,
• 1:21:46
  Speaker 4: you know that's another and you know about it too,
• 1:21:49
  Speaker 4: that what an unbelievable organization uh that comes from sports
• 1:21:54
  Speaker 4: uh and continues to do unbelievable work where every dollar
• 1:21:58
  Speaker 4: you donate every penny you don't, and eight goes to research.
• 1:22:01
  Speaker 4: They've been blessed with an incredible endowment. ESPN has been
• 1:22:05
  Speaker 4: an unbelievable partner, and you know, celebrities like Sean McDonough
• 1:22:10
  Speaker 4: and Dick Vitale and the people that have had coach
• 1:22:13
  Speaker 4: k that have moved that organization forward over the years
• 1:22:15
  Speaker 4: have been you know, remarkable stewards of of Jimmy V's
• 1:22:19
  Speaker 4: original message. So that's another thing I'm really proud of.
• 1:22:24
  Speaker 1: They play the speech every year, the famous speech Jim
• 1:22:27
  Speaker 1: Balbano gave it the sb's when he's dying in cancer.
• 1:22:29
  Speaker 1: And then they have the huge event in New York doubleheader.
• 1:22:33
  Speaker 1: From an NBA scouting perspective, it's a must attend. But
• 1:22:36
  Speaker 1: more importantly and Jeffe Thanail the head, it's the individuals
• 1:22:38
  Speaker 1: who are involved. Dick Vitale in particular, I don't know
• 1:22:41
  Speaker 1: where he is yet, but it's at least in the ten.
• 1:22:43
  Speaker 4: He's in Sarasota. Oh, no, he's in the hundreds.
• 1:22:45
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I might be over a hundred million. How much
• 1:22:48
  Speaker 1: money he's raised at this point.
• 1:22:49
  Speaker 4: No, he's I've never met or seen anyone like him,
• 1:22:52
  Speaker 4: but the passion is. I mean it's authentic, it's not
• 1:22:55
  Speaker 4: for TV. I mean he liked that all the time. Uh,
• 1:22:58
  Speaker 4: and what he's done for the v Foundation has been remarkable.
• 1:23:02
  Speaker 3: Jeff, we couldn't thank you enough for coming on talking
• 1:23:05
  Speaker 3: a lot about baseball, but you know, more philosophically about
• 1:23:09
  Speaker 3: the betterment of the game and some of your passions
• 1:23:11
  Speaker 3: off the field and educating the listeners to what's going
• 1:23:15
  Speaker 3: on behind the scenes for agents, players, their families. We
• 1:23:19
  Speaker 3: really appreciate your time. Thank you bad Please stay with
• 1:23:23
  Speaker 3: us through the break on Rosters to Rings. Welcome back
• 1:23:36
  Speaker 3: to Rosters to Rings. What a tremendous conversation with Jeff
• 1:23:39
  Speaker 3: Barry Ryan that that was really dynamic. It really got
• 1:23:43
  Speaker 3: me thinking a lot about how I interacted with agents
• 1:23:46
  Speaker 3: throughout my career, and I would love to get your
• 1:23:49
  Speaker 3: perspective on this because everything I've learned from you, it
• 1:23:52
  Speaker 3: feels to me like there's there's a pretty pronounced distinction
• 1:23:55
  Speaker 3: between how NBA agents participate in decisions and how League
• 1:24:00
  Speaker 3: Baseball agents and the decision I would make is in
• 1:24:03
  Speaker 3: Major League Baseball, they're a little bit more reactive. So
• 1:24:06
  Speaker 3: we're calling them up and saying their.
• 1:24:07
  Speaker 2: Player has been traded, they then go into action.
• 1:24:11
  Speaker 3: Jeff illuminated a little bit of that process about how
• 1:24:14
  Speaker 3: he would then get on the phone with player wives
• 1:24:17
  Speaker 3: and talk about pit bulls going to Toronto across the
• 1:24:21
  Speaker 3: border and those sorts of things we let them knowing
• 1:24:24
  Speaker 3: their players are getting drafted. It seems to me from
• 1:24:27
  Speaker 3: your experience that agents in the NBA are a little
• 1:24:32
  Speaker 3: bit more proactive and trying to affect outcomes on behalf
• 1:24:35
  Speaker 3: of their players. So I'd be curious just your thoughts
• 1:24:38
  Speaker 3: on that, like, did you see it that way or
• 1:24:40
  Speaker 3: was it different in your experience now?
• 1:24:43
  Speaker 1: I think that generally is the case thatad I started
• 1:24:46
  Speaker 1: on in NBA about twenty two years ago at this point,
• 1:24:48
  Speaker 1: and I think the evolution of the player empowerment era
• 1:24:52
  Speaker 1: to some extents the players slash agents empowerment era because
• 1:24:56
  Speaker 1: the agents are doing a lot of the pushing behind
• 1:24:58
  Speaker 1: the scenes. The NBA has done a nice job recently
• 1:25:01
  Speaker 1: trying to level the playing field a little bit. And
• 1:25:03
  Speaker 1: what I mean by that that is, I thought, you know,
• 1:25:06
  Speaker 1: a handful of years ago, there were some pretty significant
• 1:25:08
  Speaker 1: issues league wide in terms of in the pre draft
• 1:25:11
  Speaker 1: process agents withholding medical records, physicals and things like that
• 1:25:16
  Speaker 1: from certain teams and trying to steer a player toward
• 1:25:19
  Speaker 1: one team or steer them away from a team. That
• 1:25:22
  Speaker 1: doesn't happen as much anymore. Of the league in the
• 1:25:25
  Speaker 1: less collective bargain agreement addressed a lot of that, and
• 1:25:28
  Speaker 1: now those are more evenly distributed. And then the other thing, frankly,
• 1:25:32
  Speaker 1: the tampering. I think the NBA has done a nice
• 1:25:34
  Speaker 1: job of that as well. Now to be blunted. It
• 1:25:37
  Speaker 1: has taken some of the omph out of free agency.
• 1:25:39
  Speaker 1: I was in Atlanta all week last week for NBA TV,
• 1:25:42
  Speaker 1: as you know, doing shows and doing this podcast with
• 1:25:45
  Speaker 1: you from the hotel down there, and a lot of
• 1:25:47
  Speaker 1: the big names that once we hit six o'clock on
• 1:25:49
  Speaker 1: June thirtieth, were already off the board because most of
• 1:25:52
  Speaker 1: them redid deals with their current team. And that's the advantage.
• 1:25:56
  Speaker 1: Now the incoming teams have a huge advantage in terms
• 1:25:59
  Speaker 1: of resigning their own player because what was happening in
• 1:26:01
  Speaker 1: the past is the cheaters, to some extent, were being rewarded.
• 1:26:04
  Speaker 1: The guys who actually waited until free agency started that
• 1:26:07
  Speaker 1: would make calls. If you made calls, I used to
• 1:26:09
  Speaker 1: be at midnight. Now it's at six ZHO one DM
• 1:26:12
  Speaker 1: on June thirtieth, you'd call and say, oh, this guy's
• 1:26:14
  Speaker 1: actually he's gone.
• 1:26:15
  Speaker 2: He's gone.
• 1:26:15
  Speaker 1: So well, how did somebody negotiate a deal in thirty seconds?
• 1:26:18
  Speaker 1: That seems impossible. I just called one minute after the deadline.
• 1:26:20
  Speaker 1: You say he's already committed. You know, so obviously there
• 1:26:23
  Speaker 1: were there were some issues there. So I would say
• 1:26:26
  Speaker 1: the NBA has proactively taken some steps. But yeah, if
• 1:26:29
  Speaker 1: the players have a lot of power and continue to
• 1:26:32
  Speaker 1: in the NBA, which I think they will, that means
• 1:26:34
  Speaker 1: by their extension, by extension, their agents have a lot
• 1:26:36
  Speaker 1: of control and influence, and that's why you've got to
• 1:26:40
  Speaker 1: be careful. On the team side. You need to maintain
• 1:26:42
  Speaker 1: I would say at least neutral relationships. You hope the
• 1:26:45
  Speaker 1: relationships are good, that obviously, but you know, it gets
• 1:26:48
  Speaker 1: heated at times, like any people who are on different
• 1:26:51
  Speaker 1: sides of it and negotiating table would attest to. But
• 1:26:54
  Speaker 1: you try to be respectful. And one of the other
• 1:26:56
  Speaker 1: things I should mention that is that a lot of
• 1:26:58
  Speaker 1: teams now are looking at some of the agents. Jeff
• 1:27:01
  Speaker 1: Berry is a senior advisor for the San Francisco Giants.
• 1:27:05
  Speaker 1: As he mentioned, in the NBA, some of the guys
• 1:27:07
  Speaker 1: running teams, Leon Rose with the New York Knicks, Rob
• 1:27:10
  Speaker 1: Polenka with the LA Lakers, and then Bob Myers, who
• 1:27:14
  Speaker 1: did a great job on four championships with the Warriors
• 1:27:17
  Speaker 1: and now is on ESPN. They were on the player
• 1:27:20
  Speaker 1: representation side before crossing over the team side. So it
• 1:27:23
  Speaker 1: seems like maybe Jeff's I don't know if he's the
• 1:27:25
  Speaker 1: first stat I'm sure there are others, but I think
• 1:27:27
  Speaker 1: that's a trend that will continue across sports as those
• 1:27:29
  Speaker 1: guys become you know, they're so good at obviously having
• 1:27:32
  Speaker 1: relationships with players and negotiating contracts, and I think a
• 1:27:35
  Speaker 1: lot of that came through in the interview we just
• 1:27:37
  Speaker 1: did with Jeff Barrett.
• 1:27:38
  Speaker 3: I think it's fascinating, Ryan, when I hear you talk
• 1:27:41
  Speaker 3: about the NBA, and you know, you read these headlines
• 1:27:43
  Speaker 3: of you know, a player has requested a trade or
• 1:27:46
  Speaker 3: he's specified exactly where he wants to be traded. We
• 1:27:50
  Speaker 3: just didn't see that too much on the baseball side
• 1:27:52
  Speaker 3: of things. And you know, one thing that I think
• 1:27:54
  Speaker 3: Jeff shed some light on was this notion that negotiations
• 1:27:58
  Speaker 3: have become a little bit different over the time in
• 1:28:01
  Speaker 3: his career, where now it's a little bit more formulaic
• 1:28:04
  Speaker 3: and people are calling him and asking him for information
• 1:28:07
  Speaker 3: without yielding information in return. I would tell you that
• 1:28:10
  Speaker 3: that just wasn't the way I conducted myself in those processes.
• 1:28:14
  Speaker 3: Like I was a relationship person, I think Jeff was
• 1:28:16
  Speaker 3: as well. So like when we got on the phone,
• 1:28:19
  Speaker 3: we were spending fifteen to twenty minutes talking about the
• 1:28:22
  Speaker 3: state of the game and progress, and you were viving
• 1:28:25
  Speaker 3: creatively as to how the game could improve, and then
• 1:28:28
  Speaker 3: we would get to talking about his clients that we
• 1:28:30
  Speaker 3: had interest in. And I always viewed things from a
• 1:28:33
  Speaker 3: negotiation standpoint, as I always wanted to offer something that
• 1:28:37
  Speaker 3: was in the range of fair to start with. I
• 1:28:39
  Speaker 3: never subscribe to the theory I heard people talk about
• 1:28:42
  Speaker 3: it all the time with this notion of like, well,
• 1:28:43
  Speaker 3: it didn't hurt to ask, and it's like, I never
• 1:28:46
  Speaker 3: viewed it that way, because I think your integrity is
• 1:28:48
  Speaker 3: on the line when you offer something that the other
• 1:28:51
  Speaker 3: side should not accept, and by so doing, you're kind
• 1:28:53
  Speaker 3: of almost putting their livelihood in jeopardy because if they
• 1:28:56
  Speaker 3: accepted that, they could be made to look a fool
• 1:28:59
  Speaker 3: and they could lose alliance or they could lose their job.
• 1:29:02
  Speaker 3: I always felt like that wasn't something that it didn't
• 1:29:04
  Speaker 3: hurt to ask. It did hurt to ask, Like we
• 1:29:06
  Speaker 3: should be in the game to try to win these deals,
• 1:29:09
  Speaker 3: but someone presenting creatively win win negotiation, so that it
• 1:29:13
  Speaker 3: also is a win for the person you're talking to,
• 1:29:15
  Speaker 3: because you should aspire to do business with that person
• 1:29:17
  Speaker 3: in the future. And I treated every negotiation as a
• 1:29:20
  Speaker 3: means to have an easier and more seamless next negotiation
• 1:29:23
  Speaker 3: with somebody. I think you can only do that if
• 1:29:25
  Speaker 3: you treat people fairly, you listen to their needs, and
• 1:29:28
  Speaker 3: you try to deliver as much as you can to
• 1:29:30
  Speaker 3: them while also delivering more to the team that you're representing.
• 1:29:36
  Speaker 1: That's a great perspective that and one I completely agree with. Yeah,
• 1:29:40
  Speaker 1: it never hurts to ask. I've heard that from especially
• 1:29:42
  Speaker 1: younger folks who are trying to make a name for
• 1:29:44
  Speaker 1: themselves climb the ladder. But you're absolutely right. Your reputation
• 1:29:48
  Speaker 1: and credibility is everything in this industry, and that cuts
• 1:29:51
  Speaker 1: across NBA, Major League Baseball.
• 1:29:53
  Speaker 2: And others.
• 1:29:54
  Speaker 1: So you never want to be the guy where if
• 1:29:55
  Speaker 1: somebody on the other side sees your name pop up
• 1:29:57
  Speaker 1: on color ID, they send it right to voicemail or
• 1:30:00
  Speaker 1: ignore your text. That a GM who I liked a
• 1:30:03
  Speaker 1: lot personally, but he would text trade ideas that were
• 1:30:06
  Speaker 1: the most nonsensical, you know, and so I think eventually
• 1:30:09
  Speaker 1: I just put him on that do not disturb or
• 1:30:11
  Speaker 1: the phone doesn't pay you. You just see the message
• 1:30:13
  Speaker 1: whenever you look down at it, because it was it
• 1:30:15
  Speaker 1: was bottom fishing, right, and that that was pretty tiring
• 1:30:18
  Speaker 1: that that. I don't think there's at least I hope
• 1:30:20
  Speaker 1: you realized there was no way that I was going
• 1:30:22
  Speaker 1: to say yesterday of those deals. And to the extent
• 1:30:24
  Speaker 1: where he kept doing it, it was kind of insulting,
• 1:30:26
  Speaker 1: but you know that was his his mo and his philosophy.
• 1:30:28
  Speaker 1: But especially if you're younger coming up the rank, so
• 1:30:32
  Speaker 1: we're trying to establish a foothold. Don't do that because
• 1:30:35
  Speaker 1: that you never want to be the guy where you know,
• 1:30:37
  Speaker 1: Jeff Aerry is a big time agent when he was
• 1:30:39
  Speaker 1: a big time agent. You never want to be the
• 1:30:41
  Speaker 1: one where he kind of rolls his eyes and says, oh,
• 1:30:42
  Speaker 1: this is going to be some bs. Your reputation, your
• 1:30:46
  Speaker 1: name is everything, and as we've discussed on the show
• 1:30:48
  Speaker 1: that I think we will continue to. You work for
• 1:30:51
  Speaker 1: a couple Major League Baseball teams in Denver, Texas and Minnesota.
• 1:30:56
  Speaker 1: I worked for the Celtics and Suns. It is very rare,
• 1:30:58
  Speaker 1: almost impossible now days to start your career with one team,
• 1:31:02
  Speaker 1: continue to climb the ladder and just stay with that
• 1:31:04
  Speaker 1: team forever, thirty forty fifty years. On the front office side,
• 1:31:08
  Speaker 1: the coaching side, whatever it may be, you're going to
• 1:31:11
  Speaker 1: move around, and what moves around with you, obviously is
• 1:31:13
  Speaker 1: a reputation and whether people take you seriously or not.
• 1:31:16
  Speaker 1: So I think that's something that hopefully you and I
• 1:31:18
  Speaker 1: have emphasized on this show, and I'm sure we'll continue
• 1:31:21
  Speaker 1: to do so going forward.
• 1:31:22
  Speaker 3: Yeah, Ryan, that experience resonates with me. We had a
• 1:31:26
  Speaker 3: trade discussion in Minnesota where one of our assistant gms
• 1:31:31
  Speaker 3: brought into this room this concept that was presented to
• 1:31:33
  Speaker 3: him by a fellow assistant GM at the time. Then
• 1:31:37
  Speaker 3: our leader of the group said it, well, Jesus, seems
• 1:31:39
  Speaker 3: pretty compelling. I'm going to get on the phone with
• 1:31:41
  Speaker 3: the general manager see if we can knock this out.
• 1:31:43
  Speaker 3: He calls a general manager and said, who said we
• 1:31:46
  Speaker 3: would have no interest in doing that. Who the hell
• 1:31:48
  Speaker 3: presented that to you? And you're like, oh boy, So
• 1:31:50
  Speaker 3: that person immediately went on the do not reply to list.
• 1:31:54
  Speaker 3: But I also, you know, just the last thing I'll
• 1:31:56
  Speaker 3: say about this is it's a relationship business, and I
• 1:31:59
  Speaker 3: think if you approach it from that perspective, you're going
• 1:32:02
  Speaker 3: to have a longer career. It just goes to show,
• 1:32:05
  Speaker 3: you know, movies portray our relationships with agents as being
• 1:32:09
  Speaker 3: very contentious and caustic and animated, and sure it gets
• 1:32:12
  Speaker 3: that way from time to time, as you reference, but
• 1:32:14
  Speaker 3: it's far few and far between. And I always viewed
• 1:32:18
  Speaker 3: it as I want nothing more than to play pay
• 1:32:20
  Speaker 3: the players a lot of money, because if we're paying
• 1:32:22
  Speaker 3: them a lot, that means they performed exceptionally well for
• 1:32:25
  Speaker 3: the team. Hopefully that as a result, the team did
• 1:32:27
  Speaker 3: very well. We would like nothing more than to reward
• 1:32:30
  Speaker 3: the player for helping the team do very well. So
• 1:32:32
  Speaker 3: it feels as if we're on the opposite side of
• 1:32:35
  Speaker 3: the ledger, but in practice we're both really pulling on
• 1:32:38
  Speaker 3: the same side of the rope. It works out exceptionally
• 1:32:41
  Speaker 3: well for both the agent, the player, and the team.
• 1:32:43
  Speaker 3: If the player performs at extremely high level and demands
• 1:32:46
  Speaker 3: a very high salary.
• 1:32:48
  Speaker 1: And my final point on at that is leverage. How
• 1:32:51
  Speaker 1: do you take advantage of it? I do think there's
• 1:32:53
  Speaker 1: a right and a wrong way to do it, and
• 1:32:55
  Speaker 1: that is applicable right now in the NBA with the
• 1:32:58
  Speaker 1: restricted free agency because the cap space around the league
• 1:33:00
  Speaker 1: is generally dried up. The two teams with the remaining
• 1:33:03
  Speaker 1: cap space, the Brooklyn Nets and now the Utah Jazz
• 1:33:06
  Speaker 1: after recent trade, they're not necessarily looking to use it
• 1:33:08
  Speaker 1: to improve that, so they have a ton of leverage.
• 1:33:11
  Speaker 1: And I'm talking about the Brooklyn Nets with Cam Thomas,
• 1:33:14
  Speaker 1: the Chicago Bulls.
• 1:33:15
  Speaker 2: With Josh Kitty.
• 1:33:16
  Speaker 1: I could go on on Jonathan Minga in Golden State
• 1:33:19
  Speaker 1: and Quentin Grimes and Philadelphia.
• 1:33:21
  Speaker 2: Those are the main four.
• 1:33:22
  Speaker 1: So do you take advantage of it to try to
• 1:33:24
  Speaker 1: get a good deal, which I think is it's business
• 1:33:26
  Speaker 1: one on one? Or are you punitive with it? Are
• 1:33:29
  Speaker 1: are you? And do you drive a wedge between the
• 1:33:32
  Speaker 1: relationship with the franchise in that player and ordist agent.
• 1:33:35
  Speaker 1: It's a fine line pad there's a delicate balance there,
• 1:33:38
  Speaker 1: as you know, but that's one of the things that
• 1:33:40
  Speaker 1: people look at because if you do this long enough,
• 1:33:42
  Speaker 1: is you and I both know at some point the
• 1:33:44
  Speaker 1: table is going to be reversed and the other side
• 1:33:46
  Speaker 1: the ones that's going to have the leverage. And if
• 1:33:49
  Speaker 1: you handle it appropriately, I think and hope you'll be
• 1:33:52
  Speaker 1: rewarding kinds. And if you use it in a punitive
• 1:33:54
  Speaker 1: vindictive nature, be careful what you wish for, because the
• 1:33:58
  Speaker 1: train always comes back around the track, right.
• 1:34:01
  Speaker 3: I think that's an excellent point. I always view that
• 1:34:04
  Speaker 3: one of the measures of a person is how do
• 1:34:05
  Speaker 3: you handle when you have leverage? And you just said
• 1:34:08
  Speaker 3: it beautifully. It's like it really is an assessment of
• 1:34:11
  Speaker 3: your character, which I think is vital for your reputation
• 1:34:15
  Speaker 3: and your success in your career. Well, thanks to all
• 1:34:18
  Speaker 3: the listeners for staying tuned to Roster and Rings. A
• 1:34:21
  Speaker 3: great conversation with Jeff Barry, really a great perspective on
• 1:34:26
  Speaker 3: Major League Baseball behind the scenes from an agent's perspective.
• 1:34:29
  Speaker 3: We'll see you next week on Rosters to Rings. Please
• 1:34:38
  Speaker 3: join me host That Levine, Ryan McDonough and other general
• 1:34:42
  Speaker 3: managers every week for Roster Syrings on Apple, Spotify, or
• 1:34:47
  Speaker 3: wherever you get your podcasts.