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Meet the Commissioner · Prisons Inside/Out

• Commissioner Dakalbab: I hope people see hope when they see me as the Commissioner, because there is hope. I have to tell you honestly, no one in Canada, no one, has such an amazing responsibility. In reality, I see it more as a mosaic, right? Each one of us has their own contribution that is equally important, and that's what makes this beautiful picture of Corrections at the end of the day. Kirstan: Hi, I'm Kirstan Gagnon, host of Prisons Inside/Out. If you're new here, welcome. Every month, we take listeners behind the walls of Canada's federal correctional system, answering your biggest questions and sharing stories from our dedicated staff who work to change lives and protect Canadians every day. If this sounds like something you'd like to hear more of, be sure to subscribe and follow along. On today's episode, I sat down with Talal Dakalbab, the new Commissioner of the Correctional Service of Canada (CSC). During our conversation, we talked about how his life and career brought him to this point, his vision for CSC, and of course, we talked about hockey. Here's my conversation. Kirstan: Well, welcome, Commissioner. How are you? Commissioner Dakalbab: I'm good. I'm good. Thanks for having me. Kirstan: Good, thanks for coming on to our podcast Prisons Inside/Out. So tell me, you're new in the role, so big congratulations to you. Commissioner Dakalbab: I'm really excited, it's really fun, it's so amazing. Like, honestly, I've been meeting with a lot of people, talking to a lot of folks around the country, and it's exactly the same excitement when I started day one in 2001. 25 years later, people are as motivated, as excited, and I'm really happy to be here leading such an amazing team. Kirstan: Great. So, I heard from our staff that they want to get to know you and who you are as a person and I know that I kind of describe you as the man of the people because you've been walking our floors and taking time to get to know people, which I think is really important. So tell me, what's your favorite hockey team? Commissioner Dakalbab: That's an easy one. Anybody who knows me, knows that I'm a Habs fan, "mordu des Canadiens jusqu'au bout là." I don't mind, actually I do mind Toronto, but the other teams I'm okay with it. But it's Habs, without any doubt and what an amazing season they had this year. Kirstan: That’s great, and what about favourite karaoke song? Commissioner Dakalbab: Karaoke song? Grew up with my favorite karaoke song, which is Space Oddity, but I'm so horrible at it that I decided to have a new karaoke song because I never hit the notes of David Bowie. So now it's more Country Roads, Take Me Home. That's the one that I'm finding it easier with my voice for a country music song. Kirstan: Easier to have a bit of fun with. Coffee or tea? Commissioner Dakalbab: Oh, without any doubt: coffee, coffee, coffee. Kirstan: Black? Commissioner Dakalbab: Black. Kirstan: Alright, simple. Commissioner Dakalbab: Black coffee. No sugar, no milk, nothing. Kirstan: What's your favorite thing to do outside of work? Commissioner Dakalbab: That's a good one. Hmm. Kirstan: Favorite sport? Commissioner Dakalbab: Swimming. Favorite sport without any doubt. But I don't do a lot outside of work, I guess. But no, really, it's socializing. Being with my friends, being with my family. I'm a very, that's where I regain my energy and I feel good is when I'm with my family and friends and neighbors and kids especially. I love playing with my kids. Kirstan: Wonderful. So what's one of the things that inspires you about this organization coming back in after years of working in different roles elsewhere? What are your thoughts on that? Commissioner Dakalbab: I have to tell you honestly, no one in Canada, no one, has such an amazing responsibility. We're really dealing with a unique reality where we're responsible of taking care people who are, removed their light to freedom, and that is huge in our society and we are responsible of helping them going back as law-abiding citizen. And it's not easy because these people already have struggles with the rules or they have some social reality that is unique that led them to where they are right now. Canadians have a lot of expectations, and what's interesting, whenever I discuss with any of my friends, parliamentarians, colleagues, everybody has a very strong opinion about what we should do, and it's rarely the real mandate we have to deliver on, which is this unique balance between the punishment that they received and our role to help them to reintegrate the society while housing them and being human. But importantly, that they're not wasting time. They're investing their time, they're paying time, and that is a big, big challenge and honestly, this is what makes me extremely passionate about this. I love grey zones, and there is nothing more grey-zone than what we do, and I love taking risks and our job is all about taking risks and it's all about managing risk and it's all about accepting that we will live with some kind of risk in life because we never eliminate the risk. We're always trying to aim to low-risk and that is unique, cause a lot of departments, they're asked to work with black or white where we're really in the grey zone, and that is quite amazing. Kirstan: I often talk to my own neighborhood when they ask me, ‘oh, you work at corrections and, you know, what it what does that mean?’ And I say, well, you know, one day a past offender may become your neighbor. So, we need to think about what kind of citizen we want them to be, right? Commissioner Dakalbab: And most of our offenders will be released, will go back to the society and we see it in the news every day. And a lot of confusion between why are they released, whether it's stat release or WED (warrant expiry date), and a lot of confusion, but that's a reality. They go back to the community and we need to make sure that they're being law-abiding citizens, which is not an easy task for sure. But people are passionate about it. It's a career of choice, I call it. It's not a career that we are pushed to do. We pick it, we decide to do it. And so many people that I've seen visiting institutions that I've worked with 25 years ago and they've been happy and continuing to work in corrections because of the mandate. So it's quite unique. Kirstan: That’s great. So what are you hearing from some of our staff? Are you hearing they're excited about the future? Still motivated? You were saying they're still committed. Commissioner Dakalbab: Yeah, to be fair, I'm hearing a lot of concerns as well. A lot of the staff are telling me that they're exhausted. There is a serious concern that I hear all the time, which is they don't feel valued, they don't feel their opinion is being listened to or it matters. And that is something that I'm really worried about, cause everybody in this department has a very important role to play, whether it's from services or HR or admin services or Parole Officers or Correctional Officers or food services or maintenance, everybody has a key role and we need to work together. And I feel the silos are quite anchored, we always have silos in the government, don't get me wrong, like, I'm not oblivious to that. It's just at one point, I think we need to be more collaborative, more flexible and I'm hearing a lot of these requests from the staff. And our infrastructure is a big concern. This is something new that I hadn’t heard about it 25 years ago, about the maintenance and the infrastructure. So, a few observations so far to guide our priorities in the future. Kirstan: So, one team CSC, is what I'm hearing is really important in terms of moving forward and working together. Commissioner Dakalbab: You're asking me a tough question because I keep on thinking what I'm going to call it and I need to consult with you, actually, Kirstan, before I say what is it going to be called. (laughs) But yes, absolutely, absolutely. It's the collaboration and working together and recognizing each other's value. Kirstan: And always think about how this is a challenging job, like, the people on the frontlines, including our Victim Services Officers, they work really hard with Canadians on the frontline, whether it be offenders, victims or the different people we serve, our stakeholders as well. And it's always a careful balance with safety, security, victim considerations, public views so, as you noted, it's complex work, it's a hard job, and so we gotta, you know, pull together as much as possible. Is there anything you'd like Canadians or CSC staff know about the work we do every day in service to Canadians? Is there anything that you feel is really important that we should highlight as part of our job? Commissioner Dakalbab: To be honest with you, like, whether it's our relationship with Indigenous communities, stakeholders, victims, politicians, we all play a role. And I would say I don't see it as a balance, because balancing sometimes means that someone is losing something and someone is winning something. In reality, I see it more as a mosaic, right? Each one of us has their own contribution that is equally important, and that's what makes this beautiful picture of Corrections at the end of the day. And for me, I really want to make sure that we are a transparent, open organization, open to views, open to court decisions, open to our own mistakes, but mostly proud of what we do because it's such a pride and every single employee in this department, over 20,000 people, we're caring for thousands of offenders. It's such a unique, and honestly, I said it before, but for me, it's such a pride to be able to do that and I'm hopeful that eventually we will get this beautiful mosaic that will be able to contribute to expressing our mandate better to the public and to be able to get the recognition that we deserve, quite frankly. Kirstan: So, if we’re backing up a bit in terms of yourself, what brought you to this career in the first place when you first came to Canada? Commissioner Dakalbab: Total coincidence. (laughs) It was not planned at all, it was not a plan. Well, I was born in Saudi Arabia, my parents worked there. My dad was in the business in the oil companies and I’m Syrian, from Syrian parents. Around the age of nine, returned to Syria, where I grew up, and then we migrated to Canada for personal reasons. My father was sick, he was worried about our future. He always said that it was a "bombe à retardement qui disait," he spoke French and he always said that our reality in the Middle East was always on a ticking bomb and you never know the timer and he wanted a safer place for his family, more democratic, more human rights, and Canada was so attractive. So we moved to Canada, we were lucky enough to come here, two siblings, three brothers and my mom and my dad. And you know, his first mandate for us was: you all need to learn French. Kirstan: Nice. Commissioner Dakalbab: We were accepted in Montreal and he took us out of school for a year. Extremely difficult for a teenager who thought he was the king of the world, if you want, and my brother as well, he struggled and both of us now are, as you know, French is my preferred language. And I was actually thinking about these answers on their own, when are we going to speak French here? (laughs) We'll do it. And then I grew up here, went to university, studied, and I was working for an NGO in Montreal that was mostly about helping teenage homelessness. Kirstan: Wonderful. Commissioner Dakalbab: And I went to university to do a research and there was a kiosk of Corrections and somebody gave me a pamphlet that I put in my briefcase and I forgot about it for years. And one day I was cleaning my bag and I got the pamphlet and I thought ‘oh, that's interesting’ and, it's going to say how old I am now, I faxed my CV, that way the way to do it, and I sent a fax and to my biggest surprise, I got a call and I was interviewed for a Parole Officer position and that's how it all happened and I accepted the job and been here ever since. So it's pretty cool, really interesting. Kirstan: Are there any neat stories that you learned early on when you were meeting with offenders? Because a lot of people ask me, ‘well, you work at corrections, is change really possible?’ And I say to them, yes, I've seen it. The resources are there, if people want to change, they can do it. Anything that marked you along your journey? Commissioner Dakalbab: A couple, actually, stories. When I started in the mental health institution in Quebec "au CRSM" (Centre regional de santé mentale) and it's very interesting to work with people who have both the disease, the mental health illness, and translates into violence and crimes. And that was early learning for me when I he learned how stable they could be with medication and helped me advance a lot of files and releases and to be managed more by the healthcare. But a couple of meaningful stories for me were when I was in the community. I learned a lot as a Parole Officer in the community because I grew up in the institutions and then suddenly I ended up in the communities and I remember once an offender, obviously I won't say the name, but the nickname of the offender was ‘King of Crack’ in a maximum institution. Very tough file. I read the file and I was like, ‘I don't know how we’re gonna manage this individual,’ and the offender comes out, interview, and he was like, you're going to see, I'm not what's written there. I did all of this to survive, but I want to be a good citizen. I'm going back to live with my parents, he was young enough, and I have to tell you, this was one of the most impactful stories because he was honest, we don't have this very often, and he really took his life in hand and he was an exemplary release where, clearly, he had to survive inside and to do so he was a tough, tough, tough kid. So it is interesting to see how people evolve. If you look at our rates of recidivism, they're fairly low, especially in violent reoffending, extremely low. So, we need to be mindful of the reality in the incarceration versus what happens when they get out, whose has mental health diseases, who doesn't, and who are these psychopaths that we should never release, quite frankly. So, it is an interesting and not an easy way to do it, but these few cases really marked me and made me realize to be careful when we see them inside versus when they're outside. Kirstan: Before I came to corrections, I didn't realize the amount of services and the amount of structure provided to some of these folks, if they want it. Commissioner Dakalbab: And we see this with a lot of Indigenous offenders when they work with the elders, with the communities, they reconnect with their culture, they re-learn where they came from, the healing. I've seen miracles, honestly, when I worked at the SHU, at the Special Handling Unit, we worked together at the time to create an environment where they were allowed to do sweat lodges with the elders and, honestly, they will go in and, you know, like they're so supervised and controlled environment, and they'll come out and you'll see the difference in these teachings. And it's very interesting how sometimes you need to go to serve time to be able to reconnect, like hit the bottom sometimes and then they start coming out. It's quite impressive. Kirstan: So, on a different note, I had a chance to hear from several of our staff and I work as the champion of anti-racism, diversity, equity, inclusion, and a lot of them are really inspired by you as our Commissioner and they're very proud to have somebody more representative at our helm. How do you feel about that? Commissioner Dakalbab: You know, it reminds me of my mom telling me a story when we moved to Canada. I was 15 and I was crossing the street and as I'm crossing the street, obviously, it was red light, I was not at a proper corner to cross the street. And she grabbed me and she said ‘you can't do this anymore. It's not about Talal anymore. It's about a community you carry on your shoulder.’ And my mom said, when people are going to look at you, they're not going to say, ‘oh, look at this kid crossing the street.’ It's going to be either look at this, so, it was obvious with my mom wearing the hijab that I was a Muslim family, I was an immigrant. And she said, now people will say, ‘look at this immigrant or look at these Muslims.’ So you have to think about it twice. Whatever you do, you're representing a community. And I have to tell you, it comes with a heavy weight, right? Like, it's not an easy task, but I committed that I will do that. I hope people see hope when they see me as the Commissioner, because there is hope. Our organization’s evolved a lot. Actually, yesterday I was visiting institutions and I was honestly touched. When I started 25 years ago, I was one of the rare visible minorities, where now, you walk around and it is really representative and that's kudos to the organization. We still have a lot of work to do. I will tell you, like, it is quite interesting. Right now, we have the Minister who is a visible minority. I'm here as the leader, first Commissioner, first person in the portfolio to be a visible minority head. There's still work to be done. I hear sometimes in meetings things we say, things we do. People don't intend to have these microaggressions that we talk about it, but I'm telling you like it exists. So, we still have a lot of work to do and I hope by being here it will inspire more and will advance the needle further, but I cannot not mention the progress that we've done over the last few years. It's quite impressive. Kirstan: So, my last question was: what are you most looking forward to in this new position? Commissioner Dakalbab: Well, meeting people, that's exciting and I'm doing it a lot. That's number one. But telling the story, I'm really, really hoping, I'm someone who likes to connect, I have a good network around me, and I want to expand this network within the field that we're in. But I really want to tell the story. I want to make sure that people understand how great of an organization we are and how well we work. I would like to recognize what we're doing in the public domain. As you heard me before telling you, Kirstan, get me to the parliamentary committees. I want to tell people about what we're doing. Let's talk to the media, let's be out there, let's talk to our stakeholders. Like, we learn from mistakes and we have a lot of people willing to give us advice. Let's listen, let's see what's happening. And that's what’s exciting me is really, if I could just have a few instances where I could highlight the success and accomplishments that we do, because media is mostly interested in the wrong release, the reoffending, the risks. So if we could turn, I don't, I'm not too naive to believe that this will change, but at least if we could balance it with some good stories and I think I'm going to try to focus on that. Kirstan: Great. And there's so much good, so many people working hard each and every day to fulfill our mandate, and it really makes me proud to work here. So thank you, Commissioner Dakalbab for the interview. Commissioner Dakalbab: Thank you very much. Kirstan: Thank you to Commissioner Dakalbab for taking the time to join us today. To learn more about the Commissioner and what he's gotten up to in the first month on the job, follow us on our social media accounts, on Instagram or on Facebook at Correctional Service Canada. This has been a production of the Correctional Service of Canada and I've been your host. Kirstan Gagnon. Thanks for listening, see you next time.