Latest / Oxide and Friends / OxF 2025 Wrap-Up

Transcript

OxF 2025 Wrap-Up · Oxide and Friends

• 0:00
  Bryan Cantrill: Hello, Adam.
• 0:01
  Adam Leventhal: Hello, Bryan. How are you?
• 0:02
  Bryan Cantrill: I'm doing well. How are you?
• 0:04
  Adam Leventhal: Pretty good. Pretty good. Lots going on in the world, but glad to be here.
• 0:08
  Bryan Cantrill: Oh, is there anything going on? Is there any anything of note?
• 0:11
  Adam Leventhal: I wouldn't you know what? If you've missed it, wouldn't bother looking.
• 0:14
  Bryan Cantrill: Exactly. Please don't. Yeah. This is I'm excited for this episode. You know?
• 0:19
  I I'm I'm excited for this for this tradition, the our our annual wrap up. Actually, before we get there, because we honestly, if we if we hadn't already planned this episode, we might be talking about this RFD that I wrote a week and a half ago, the RFD five seventy six on using LLMs at oxide. I have been shocked at the am I stupid to say this?
• 0:41
  Adam Leventhal: No. I people feel really people feel really excited about it, I think. Is that what you're saying?
• 0:47
  Bryan Cantrill: The the I am amazed at how hot this issue is just in general. I mean, because I felt like I was saying something that was very, like, very neutral in the way. It's like very, like, reasonable middle of the road, not too extreme and but I this thing got a huge amount of of pull. I mean I made the RFD public because I thought like one or two people of Blue Sky might like find a spelling error which actually they did. So thank you Blue Sky.
• 1:13
  The spelling error is jumping up. But and then I was like, we're going to a dinner party this last week, and it's the top story on Hacker News. The number one story on Hacker News.
• 1:21
  Adam Leventhal: That had escaped my attention. I would say, and I mean this with all respect, like, I read it, and I think my feedback was like, yeah. Okay.
• 1:29
  Bryan Cantrill: Milquetoast .
• 1:30
  No. I mean,
• 1:31
  Adam Leventhal: I don't I mean, no disrespect was just like No.
• 1:33
  Bryan Cantrill: No. No. No. No. This was my view.
• 1:35
  Like, my view was like very like just like punching a clock doing, you know, like, yeah, like just just making sense. It's fine. Like nothing like not a number one story on Hacker News. So that was a a a shock. And then I was gonna be like, okay, we're about to go to a dinner party.
• 1:50
  It's the number one story on Hacker News and the comments are just like, I'm like, I have to like turn my phone off. I'm like, God's plan. What you whatever happens at this point, you know? And fortunately, it was like it was it was all fine, basically. I mean, more or less, you know, the but the haters eventually they once you get to a certain amount of traffic, like, haters are always gonna show up.
• 2:11
  For For
• 2:11
  Adam Leventhal: sure. But I feel like, I mean, your point of, like, you know, you should spend as much time writing a thing as you expect people to spend reading the thing. I can understand it as being, like, I don't know, like, not obvious, but like I
• 2:28
  Bryan Cantrill: feel exactly the same way. Like, I guess I was splitting the atom on that one. Didn't feel like it really. But a lot of people like, that in particular, that really resonated with a bunch of folks. I think we're kind of feeling the same thing and struggling to kind of put put words to it.
• 2:45
  So Yeah. All of that kind of put me on like, I wanted to to flesh out a little bit and I got some great feedback and and I I updated a bit. And then I wanted to go back and listen to something I'd started listening to which is Evan Ratliff's Shell Game podcast. Have you listened to any of this?
• 3:00
  Adam Leventhal: I've started it. Yeah. I started this weekend.
• 3:02
  Bryan Cantrill: It is very good. It is outstanding. I guess so if you are especially, you know, kind of in the holiday season here, there are a lot of menial tasks that need to be done where, you know, maybe a podcast and some spiked eggnog might help you get you through it. You you you wanna be putting on shell game.
• 3:18
  Adam Leventhal: There you go. That's halfway there. Then and then pull up the eggnog. Right?
• 3:21
  Bryan Cantrill: And pull up the eggnog. It is so if you are you on season one or season two?
• 3:25
  Adam Leventhal: I skipped season one. I went straight to season two.
• 3:28
  Bryan Cantrill: Which is I think like the that's that's a good idea. Although I think Susan in season one is excellent. The one thing that you get and I think you should listen to season one even after having listened to season two. The and in season one, he creates a persona of himself that he unleashes into the world and it is really fascinating. But season two is absolutely unhinged because he creates a startup with these personas that he creates.
• 3:57
  And I I mean, I I don't know. Have you I'm more are you gonna get I'm just finding it mesmerizing. Think it's amazing.
• 4:02
  Adam Leventhal: I I think it's great. I think I actually played Ultimate Frizzy with Evan for many years in San Francisco, and I think if I recall correctly in Wired, probably, like, fifteen years ago, he, like, tried to delete himself from the Internet. And He did.
• 4:16
  Bryan Cantrill: That's right. Yeah. He did. And he was found after a month. Yeah.
• 4:19
  He challenged the internet to find him and the internet found him. Yeah. Which well, you know that you definitely recall correctly. So the fact so we we've gotta I mean, I know I know this is not it's supposed be a wrap up, not a preview of next year, but we we gotta get him as a guest. Yeah.
• 4:32
  For sure. Yeah.
• 4:34
  Adam Leventhal: And Morris Chang too. Right.
• 4:36
  Bryan Cantrill: Morris Chang. Yeah. I mean, think I played ultimate Morris Chang. So maybe I'll go after, you know oh, actually the fact that you played the ultimate evidence, does that mean that I should be asking him or you should be
• 4:44
  Adam Leventhal: asking him?
• 4:45
  Bryan Cantrill: I mean, you can hear this in the spirit, which is attended. Right? Mean, this
• 4:49
  Adam Leventhal: is very astute question and I can ask him in this case only.
• 4:56
  Bryan Cantrill: Okay. That's good to know. You're on the same team. That's good. Yeah.
• 4:58
  They that's that's that's good to know. And so anyway, highly recommended it. Highly recommended podcast. Really, really good listening. And I'm like, next episode of season two drops on Wednesday.
• 5:11
  I can't wait. And perhaps in fitting with that, actually, before we talk about like wrapping up 25, I feel like there's a there's some headlines of 25 from an oxide and friends perspective.
• 5:24
  Adam Leventhal: Okay.
• 5:25
  Bryan Cantrill: I mean, actually, one kind of surprising thing, do you and have you already done this about the number of episodes? Or maybe you know, just automatically know this. Maybe your brain is just hardwired in the transistor.
• 5:34
  Adam Leventhal: You mean, like, how how many we've done
• 5:36
  Bryan Cantrill: this How many we did in 2025 versus 2024 versus '23?
• 5:40
  Adam Leventhal: I don't know that off the top of my head. My guess is
• 5:42
  Bryan Cantrill: What's your intuition?
• 5:43
  Adam Leventhal: My guess is more than last year and probably more than the year before, but maybe less than the year before that.
• 5:50
  Bryan Cantrill: That is exactly right. And it but the numbers this year, last year, the year before are all basically the same. I thought we did a few episodes this year. I really did. I thought we know, but I I had to go was down in Mexico with the did my mom, and I just felt like we or we did less episodes, but we didn't.
• 6:06
  We actually are gonna do, like, one more episode this year than last year.
• 6:09
  Adam Leventhal: Yeah. I I I I did know that we were, ahead of pace. I think we had some, like, hiatus where it wasn't working out for you and me, and I had I had seen that that we were ahead of pace. So why see why, you know, we can skip it. We can give ourselves some time off.
• 6:20
  Bryan Cantrill: Yeah. No. It's good. Alright. So that was that was a little bit of a surprise to me, but I thought that was interesting.
• 6:25
  But I feel that the the big the big news, if a big reveal last year was the all of the sweat on the brow with the images. I mean, I thought it big reveal last year. I think I go. I think I think that people, you know, they they knew they appreciated it but they didn't know why. And now we've got and so how do you feel?
• 6:46
  Because now, mean, obviously changed everything. We kind of broke the seal on that and now, you know, we we pulled back the curtain.
• 6:53
  Adam Leventhal: I mean, a lot of pressure, obviously. I I was looking back at the Europe images, and they were like, good. I don't know. Like, I feel like
• 7:00
  Bryan Cantrill: Come on. Come on. Come on. Are we no. I I understand what you're doing, and it's fine.
• 7:06
  You want us to walk out. No. Let walk us up to it. So we we so we call out someones that are really special.
• 7:13
  Adam Leventhal: I will I will say there were a couple that I really liked. A couple I really liked.
• 7:17
  Bryan Cantrill: And I
• 7:17
  Adam Leventhal: bet you and I are gonna we should write it on a card and flip it over.
• 7:19
  Bryan Cantrill: I don't think
• 7:20
  Adam Leventhal: we need
• 7:20
  Bryan Cantrill: to do that. I think we know what it is.
• 7:22
  Adam Leventhal: Okay. But
• 7:23
  Bryan Cantrill: I'd say I
• 7:24
  Adam Leventhal: have absolute confidence. Okay. On three. One two three. No Egress.
• 7:28
  Oh, wow. Okay. Hey. Oh, wow. What was the what the AI was the AI discourse one?
• 7:35
  Bryan Cantrill: This is with Klabnik. Right? I think it's AI discourse.
• 7:38
  Adam Leventhal: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Well, I'm I'm trying to remember what the image was.
• 7:41
  Bryan Cantrill: Oh, come on. Yeah. Yeah. I just wish Oh,
• 7:44
  Adam Leventhal: yeah. I did love that one. This is
• 7:46
  Bryan Cantrill: I I I knew it. So you you were thinking of was second place, which is fine. I didn't
• 7:49
  Adam Leventhal: know we were doing second place.
• 7:50
  Bryan Cantrill: I thought I thought we were bringing in order from first to second, not to second to first.
• 7:54
  Adam Leventhal: This was an image. I mean, I don't know. The reason I think I I think I I think I didn't pick that one because because the thing I love most about it, like, only I love about it. So the images of you shared
• 8:07
  Bryan Cantrill: That's not true. I love about it too.
• 8:09
  Adam Leventhal: I love it about it too. It's you sharing a milkshake with a robot. With a robot. Which I really enjoyed. But then the thing that had me tittering, and I think basically nobody else, is if you watch if you watch the YouTube episode, it pans over the span of, like, literally twenty minutes.
• 8:29
  It pans over to me, like, checking my phone next to you. Like, I'm third wheeling it with you on a date with a robot, and then it pans back.
• 8:39
  Bryan Cantrill: And and you had told me that there was something very spec actually, are two very special things in that episode. So we'll talk about the second as a segue to something else I wanna talk about. But the there are two very special things in that episode. One of it is this kind of panning thing. You had but not been as specific.
• 8:53
  You said, I really want you to listen to this episode. I think you're gonna like it. And I was I was grocery shopping, listening to the podcast as one does. And it what it had its desired effect where it's just kinda like, I looked out on my phone like, what's when did when did that pop up? Like, when did it's now Adam.
• 9:07
  And it wasn't Adam wasn't here and then it so no. I I wish you could have been I wish I should have been wearing, you know, the the the helmet cam when I was in the grocery store. But the the the selfie cam, you would have really you would have really Okay. It hit the mark. It it you could not have asked for anything more.
• 9:26
  I it was it was confusion, and then it was delight, and then it was, oh, what whimsy. What what what a whimsical what a whimsical cohost I have.
• 9:34
  Adam Leventhal: There you go.
• 9:35
  Bryan Cantrill: How delightful. It was really it was all these feelings.
• 9:37
  Adam Leventhal: It was really great. I love that for all of those folks who are, like, staring at the unmoving YouTube video. Right? The people who are like, no. No.
• 9:46
  I'm gonna listen to Oxide and Friends and stare at the image for an hour and
• 9:50
  Bryan Cantrill: a half. It's kind of like up in a window or whatever. No. This is what makes it even better because it's just like off to the side. And then you're like, wait.
• 9:56
  Has it changed? It's like, it has. It has. I'm glad you asked the question. So I thought it was great.
• 10:01
  Adam Leventhal: The one I picked Yeah. The the the episode that we had done that you titled I believe you picked came up with the title, hell is other networks or maybe
• 10:08
  Bryan Cantrill: those collaborations. Networks, but Maybe. But give it to you. Yeah. Fine.
• 10:13
  But I'll take it.
• 10:13
  Adam Leventhal: But then but then having having the you know, you using the the the complaining on no exit, making it no egress just felt like I I love that one.
• 10:26
  Bryan Cantrill: It was genius, and it should be said that was a chat GPT or that was an LLM suggestion.
• 10:31
  Adam Leventhal: That's right. Chat GPT joke, but really good.
• 10:35
  Bryan Cantrill: It was like the the first and maybe only chat GPT joke that I actually, like, laughed at.
• 10:41
  Adam Leventhal: Yes.
• 10:41
  Bryan Cantrill: That was funny. Yeah. No egress is funny. That's like no egress is just straight up funny, which tells me that it's just like cribbing the joke from someone else. Has someone else already done no egress?
• 10:49
  Surely. You know, we have we checked the mailbag recently? We probably have some a letter from an angry podcaster who's like,
• 10:56
  Adam Leventhal: you you stole
• 10:56
  Bryan Cantrill: not just my gag, but my image. Like, the LLM did it. We did.
• 11:00
  Adam Leventhal: We we Well, I made the image. The LLM just gave me the idea in in Well, it is
• 11:04
  Bryan Cantrill: a great image. It is it is it is a I mean, I thought that was genius. And that was really no. I I mean, I thought that was also like, it's a level of seriousness that you often don't find in in awe. I mean, it's just like really getting into existential thread, you know.
• 11:16
  Absolutely.
• 11:17
  Adam Leventhal: The the deep cuts. Yes.
• 11:19
  Bryan Cantrill: The the the deep cuts. So I thought that was are there other images that we wanna call and how has it been to have though to kind of democratize this and have other people aware of this? Has it has it helped you? Has it been kind of like, need people to kinda get out of the workshop while I'm working? Is this just like, you
• 11:36
  Adam Leventhal: know No. No. No. I think it's like I mean, I was looking back at the images from this year. A bunch of them I was kinda counting how many were just AI?
• 11:46
  Because I I don't know that I love that affect. And actually, not that many were just Not
• 11:50
  Bryan Cantrill: that many. No. No. No. We don't use it.
• 11:52
  Adam Leventhal: Yeah. But almost all of them, I've I have some AI assistance,
• 11:56
  Bryan Cantrill: which Yes. Which is sort of telling. It is telling. Yeah. You know, aspect ratio this is the aspect ratio is wrong is the thing I get from you a lot.
• 12:04
  The aspect ratio is wrong. Can you fix this? Never mind, I've got it. I feel like I've got that exact dialogue in the several oh, I guess several times over.
• 12:13
  Adam Leventhal: Yeah. That's right. But, like, you know, just having it again, not the subject of the image, but the surround, just like great for the lazy man's Photoshopper.
• 12:25
  Bryan Cantrill: And then we did hit I I would say we hit the Simpsons a little harder this year.
• 12:29
  Adam Leventhal: 100%. This was like
• 12:31
  Bryan Cantrill: really tacked into it, and it's just like, we're let's just mask off. We're just gonna really let's see if we can get that cease and desist.
• 12:38
  Adam Leventhal: Exactly. No. Totally. It's like Fox like Disney, please. Like, the cease and desist will just post the the address right right on the images.
• 12:45
  Bryan Cantrill: Yes. Please, we're kinda begging for it. But so no. I thought and a bunch of good ones. I mean, I thought a bunch of, like, good I mean, you could look.
• 12:51
  You can rely on us that, like, if you're gonna get a a Simpsons reference from us I mean, there's certain things you know about it. You know it's gonna be certainly in the first twelve seasons, probably in the first eight. It's gonna be something that you should be aware of that a Simpsons scholar and I I we've gotta like talk about the grown up CFS data corruption bug image because I feel like that's a deep cut. That is a Simpson's deep cut.
• 13:14
  Adam Leventhal: That is a Simpson's deep cut. Yes. This is Krusty the clown holding up a contract. And this was like a reference. I mean, even within the episode, it's a deep cut.
• 13:26
  It's
• 13:27
  Bryan Cantrill: It is. It is.
• 13:28
  Adam Leventhal: I mean, because it was a reference to, like, Matt Arons, founder like, creator of ZFS, giving us a email, which we have referred to instead as the affidavit as though it is some binding contract, which news to him.
• 13:43
  Bryan Cantrill: I mean, was funny because we referred to the affidavit so frequently inside of Oxide that it had only occurred to me that we had never really told Matt about this. And that's like, what? Yo yo yo. Sorry. You were under oath when you sent that email.
• 13:52
  Are you unaware? Yeah.
• 13:53
  Adam Leventhal: Well, I
• 13:54
  Bryan Cantrill: thought well, anyway anyway, you were. So
• 13:57
  Adam Leventhal: So so, you know, that's what's up. Yeah.
• 14:01
  Bryan Cantrill: But then you it is but it's it's a deeper cut than that because wasn't that trimmed from the broadcast?
• 14:07
  Adam Leventhal: Oh, that's right. That's right. That I forgot about that. Yes. Right.
• 14:11
  So that was a scene that you were familiar with because you have been watching streaming. And I only watched, like, in college on broadcast TV, You know? And and they cut scenes from syndication. So this is from one of the scenes that was not in syndication.
• 14:32
  Bryan Cantrill: Yeah. We are we are at undergrad. We are deep into grad school here when we're talking about the Simpsons. This I thought that was really that was that was an impressively deep cut. And you had a couple of it, I I thought.
• 14:41
  And then also, like, I mean, some very just important, you know, you've got, like, clearly, Sajob Bob stepping on the rakes. I mean, it's just like this is I mean, if you're not, if you haven't watched that scene, I mean, you just these are things that you should be, you know, trying to help you out in your education. That's right.
• 14:55
  Adam Leventhal: That's right. Homer designing a car pointing to it. I felt a little bad implying that, like, Dave, our esteemed colleague who gave a great talk was Right.
• 15:04
  Bryan Cantrill: It was it was a
• 15:05
  Adam Leventhal: a dumb shit pointing pointing at a doodle. You
• 15:08
  Bryan Cantrill: can't take these apart too much. I mean, like, AI in higher education with Michael Whitman had a homer again while the while the nerds are are are busy at work. And I'm not even sure who's what in that metaphor. So you can't take this apart.
• 15:21
  Adam Leventhal: You have to pour yourself into it. Like, I think we can all see ourselves in that picture somewhere.
• 15:25
  Bryan Cantrill: Exactly. Exactly. You're all in that picture somewhere.
• 15:27
  Adam Leventhal: We are all the nerds and we are all homer.
• 15:29
  Bryan Cantrill: We all Homer. The I'll reflect. Please please write a non LLM generated essay. Okay? Because I we in in Simpsons three zero one or whatever course this is.
• 15:39
  Adam Leventhal: Another image I love
• 15:42
  Bryan Cantrill: so I I I when you're gonna go there, I'm I always wanna put episode. Over. Image the Go.
• 15:48
  Adam Leventhal: At the episode, long time in the making, this is the TLB speculation data corruption
• 15:53
  Bryan Cantrill: bug Yeah.
• 15:54
  Adam Leventhal: That I had been pestering you about for two years, like,
• 15:59
  Bryan Cantrill: Yeah. Literally.
• 16:00
  Adam Leventhal: Yeah. Is just you, head in hands, like, to output that made no sense. Like, literally could not happen output.
• 16:12
  Bryan Cantrill: It is it is a great image. It is a really really good image. No. And that and that one is just like a screen grab from a meeting basically.
• 16:19
  Adam Leventhal: That's just
• 16:19
  Bryan Cantrill: that is just like literally be in my basement trying to like grapple with tears in the fabric of reality. And that was that was really good. No. I thought you're gonna say AI materials and fraud with Ben Schindle on the Aware the World's Crumble in San Diego.
• 16:37
  Adam Leventhal: And That was fun.
• 16:39
  Bryan Cantrill: That was a I thought that was a great image that you that you
• 16:43
  Adam Leventhal: Yeah. Scrapped together. Yeah. Was fun.
• 16:44
  Bryan Cantrill: Yeah. Was that not I I mean, am I am I ever playing that one?
• 16:47
  Adam Leventhal: No. No. I like I like that. It took a little bit of, you know, artistry of form. And that was a fun episode.
• 16:53
  And you sent me an article recently from the Wall Street Journal where they had been apparently listening to the podcast. I
• 17:00
  Bryan Cantrill: think it's a little generous. Yeah. Let's say. Let's say. Let's say for purpose.
• 17:04
  Yes. Yeah. And what's gonna happen if I drop in that gift link into the discord? I think it'll be fine. We'll put the gift link at the discord and then the Wall Street Journal can send me a cease and desist.
• 17:14
  Then you know what, Wall Street Journal, unlike Fox, I feel I can't rely on them to send me a cease and desist. So Fox, you could really learn a thing or two from the Wall Street Journal. The but that was like it would because it was an update on know, you know, I re listened to this. You re listened to that episode or we listened to that episode No, First of all, I'd like to apologize for my bad audio while I was in Mexico. So I know I know the apology is not accepted for many people, but I just wanna put that out there that I am I'd like the record to reflect that I am apologizing.
• 17:41
  It really was kinda bad. So It was as I recall, it was like echoey. Right? It was echoey. Yeah.
• 17:46
  It was I was in a I mean, my mom's place down there is a very know, it's a lot of tile.
• 17:51
  Adam Leventhal: Yeah. It was like tile it was like you were, you know, sitting in a tile cube. It was like
• 17:55
  Bryan Cantrill: I was sitting in the tile cube. I was. So I but I feel like that's that's a bit of an excuse. I feel like I could have done better.
• 18:00
  Adam Leventhal: So Yep.
• 18:01
  Bryan Cantrill: I apologize for that.
• 18:02
  Adam Leventhal: Well, look. An apology not accepted. And to the haters who are like, your audio sucks. It's like, yes. Our audio sucks where we're sitting.
• 18:10
  Like, no amount of taking out a Discord is gonna improve Brian sitting in a six sided cube of tile.
• 18:17
  Bryan Cantrill: Like, that's not Discord's fault. This is you you can't hang out on Discord. That's on me. Wait a minute. Hold on.
• 18:24
  That's what I wait. Oh, man. Duck season fire. Thank god. A 100%.
• 18:31
  That is you know, that's a duck season fire, is that a reference that that travels? No way.
• 18:37
  Adam Leventhal: No way. Not not a chance. Really? Like, I feel like I mean, bugs I feel like Bugs Bunny is like But baby go overtly racist? No?
• 18:48
  Bryan Cantrill: Oh, what? You can't make has Bugs Bunny been canceled? I can't make a Bugs Bunny reference?
• 18:52
  Adam Leventhal: I'm not sure. I I you know what? I'm just not going to. Maybe Chad can can weigh on on this one. I'm just not I'd like a 100 a 100%, there are some impersonations that Bugs done has done that were not okay at the time and certainly are not okay now.
• 19:09
  Bryan Cantrill: Well, dear listener, if you are hearing this in the podcast feed, we have decided that Bugs Bunny is insufficiently not canceled to leave it in, or we couldn't find it.
• 19:18
  Adam Leventhal: Sorry. Forgot to look for it.
• 19:20
  Bryan Cantrill: I forgot to look for it. But okay. So the you know, the other thing that I that was obviously a very big deal this year was the the introduction of the chime. Yes. That's very controversial.
• 19:35
  Okay. So and actually, just kind of a meta question on the the the the chime. Are we ringing the chime in this? Have you decided
• 19:45
  Adam Leventhal: before we're gonna No. I think we I think it would be
• 19:47
  Bryan Cantrill: Kim kind of been I've I've kind of okay. Can can can we workshop it a little bit? I said, you say no chime in this episode just because you think the chime would be going off all the time.
• 19:55
  Adam Leventhal: That's right. That's right. I think the whole the whole thing is a retrospective. And to to chime I mean, the the the chime is actually intended god. I I can't believe I'm saying this.
• 20:06
  As like a gift to listeners. Right? To know more. To know more.
• 20:10
  Bryan Cantrill: Oh, that's great. That I definitely was gonna say that. I do listen. Let let let the record reflect that as Adam who believes that is a gift. I know it's you.
• 20:19
  It's for you. Sure. You're like, can I did you keep the receipt? Is it you have a gift receipt? Can I
• 20:24
  Adam Leventhal: Was it this I think it was the season that we did the JJ Airhorn?
• 20:29
  Bryan Cantrill: Okay. That was the second thing I was gonna say from that the AI discourse episode was the so you had introduced the chime. I think the chime is delight. I think the chime is so delightful that I think that that we should potentially have it be in this episode. I I will I I think it's for your consideration because I think that the because it will make it very clear noted.
• 20:50
  It will make it very clear what the chimes for, which apparently some people confuse the chimes for. The chimes to make reference to previous episodes. In the and we I think we only kinda do it for once per episode. Like, we bring up an episode we haven't talked about. We hit the chime.
• 21:01
  We don't like we don't nail it on every sentence you're talking about.
• 21:04
  Adam Leventhal: Yeah. And dear listener, I have been reducing the volume of the chime with each episode to the point where it's fainter and fainter.
• 21:11
  Bryan Cantrill: Oh, really? You big chicken. I didn't notice that. Yeah. A little a little insight there, a little insight or information for folks.
• 21:18
  That's what that the the it's like, you know, I was an Oxide fans fan back when the chime used to be abrasive. Now you can barely hear it.
• 21:27
  Adam Leventhal: I when you yeah. Used to be, oxide listeners, that you had to know it was coming and take off your headphones, lest you be deafened. Yes.
• 21:33
  Bryan Cantrill: Yeah. Exactly. You would duck and covered. So the no. So I think the chime is is delightful but I was re listening to I was re listening to the AI discourse episode and I truthfully had forgotten about when because we would always joke with Klabnik that whenever you know whenever he hit you know JJ, we mentioned JJ you know you got to kind of ring a bell And he hit JJ, and boy, you did a lot more than ringing a bell.
• 21:57
  That was a what do you even call that? What does that sound? That's of like
• 22:01
  Adam Leventhal: That I I know that as MLG Airhorn.
• 22:05
  Bryan Cantrill: MLG Airhorn. Do know MLG
• 22:07
  Adam Leventhal: Do you know what MLG stands for? No. No. My understanding is it stands for Major League Gamer. Major League Gamer?
• 22:15
  Bryan Cantrill: Yeah. Oh, interesting. Is that okay. Where are we? Are we like millennial, gen z?
• 22:20
  Where are we on that? Obviously not Xers. I I On that one.
• 22:23
  Adam Leventhal: Think it's like gen z creeping into millennial and like, we sound like boomers to be clear.
• 22:28
  Bryan Cantrill: Like right now, we are we are getting boomer. Don't care. We are giving we are giving old people, which is as as Susanna described, the change lock music. Yeah. Don't care about that one.
• 22:37
  I that one is the I'm I'm really just, you know, I'm I'm I'm just trying to to expand my knowledge, man. There you go. So
• 22:46
  Adam Leventhal: and there was one Yeah. I think I only did one other sound effect this season, which was another gift to you more recently. Do you remember this was for the episodes not done?
• 22:58
  Bryan Cantrill: The episodes not done?
• 23:00
  Adam Leventhal: So you were talking about yeah. We were we were you were talking about, like, an episode. I think we like, we we didn't do an episode on but we should have probably on one of the rust async bugs that Rain had encountered.
• 23:13
  Bryan Cantrill: Okay.
• 23:14
  Adam Leventhal: And you were, like, calling for the chime for an episode that didn't exist. And I gave the price is right failure, like, womp womp.
• 23:23
  Bryan Cantrill: Womp womp. I you know, I think I I had remembered that, but forgotten it.
• 23:28
  Adam Leventhal: There we go. Or
• 23:29
  Bryan Cantrill: know. Know. Getting Womp womp in there. That that that's so when would that must have been well, I don't know. Off code Dig
• 23:34
  Adam Leventhal: by that. Most recently with rain. Like, just a couple weeks ago, think when
• 23:38
  Bryan Cantrill: we were talking about yeah. And maybe future lock.
• 23:40
  Adam Leventhal: Future lock?
• 23:41
  Bryan Cantrill: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Future lock, a a great episode. So we I did ask, I love the chime.
• 23:49
  I thought I think the the chime was a great add. It's a deep pull. I think it's, you know, the fact that it's a sound from a visceral sound from from your youth, our our kind of shared youth, that was great. And I I I love kinda having that callback through these episodes and I know people online hate it. And I guess, I mean, it is what it is.
• 24:07
  I don't know what's I think that the Agree or disagree. Agree or disagree. I want I'm like, this like, we we have no ads. Like you you literally never have to fast forward through anything other than our banter and like yeah, you get the occasional chime. Like that's think of it as a sub second ad.
• 24:22
  So that's that's what I gotta say on that. Okay. So I also did the experiment we did too of, you know, that's kinda like that it's been super busy and I just didn't have a huge amount of time to prepare for this. So you know, as you do, wanna see what our little LLM friends would how they would do a wrap up for this year. Did you do
• 24:42
  Adam Leventhal: this? No.
• 24:43
  Bryan Cantrill: Oh, it was fascinating. So I did a wrap up with both Gemini and with ChatGeePD. So this ChatGeeP five two and Gemini three with deep thinking or whatever on the on the you know, everyone's you know, deep research three five I don't know whatever. Pretty interesting. So one, I will say this, on the I asked them to like taxonomize it and both of them really nailed it.
• 25:10
  I mean, one of the things that we, you know, the the episodes did have a different tone this year. I don't know that it's deliberate. I think it's I mean, it's consequence of couple different things. But, I mean, what would you what would you say is a big theme for this year? Bugs.
• 25:25
  Bugs. Yeah. Bugs are
• 25:28
  Adam Leventhal: really good. Was delighted. You know you know what was less of a theme that I anticipated was AI.
• 25:34
  Bryan Cantrill: AI was less of a theme. AI was less of a theme and I think the I think it's because it's like less on the horizon and more like in the business now. You know what I mean? Like it's more like it's like kinda everywhere now. It feels so we did have a couple of AI episodes including the one on material the AI materials and fraud which I I I and I I that was really delightful episode and conversation just because I feel that that fraud.
• 26:04
  I it's like okay. Can we just actually maybe we should talk about this for a second. Jokes that we think our jokes mean, it's Ghoshulash I laugh your own jokes, but that's never prevented Jokes that we thought are funny. Our own jokes, like, I'm sorry the Aiden Turner Rogers if I did it, that that killed me. I I every time I really listened to that, it killed me.
• 26:22
  I just I I thought the the OJ Simpson, Aiden Turner Rogers mashup was I loved. Yeah. Did you have any that you Any
• 26:35
  Adam Leventhal: any joke jokes of my own that I wanna like relive?
• 26:38
  Bryan Cantrill: Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. But now is the time when we can weep in the you know, we get we get to laugh at our own jokes right now.
• 26:44
  Adam Leventhal: Yeah. You know what? I I I none really come to mind. I know that I know that you doubt that completely, but I don't think I retained them well enough. Yeah.
• 26:54
  I'll need to I'll need to think that one through. But I I I do like, when I am listening to our episodes, I am embarrassed by, like, sometimes needing to pull over and, like, titter at a joke that I told to myself five months ago. So at least I know my audience, which is
• 27:06
  Bryan Cantrill: Exactly. Exact exactly. So that's good stuff. Well, anyway, so the so I I but we had a lot of of episodes on debugging and a lot on bugs. I mean, just we did not have including some really interesting stuff.
• 27:19
  So I mean, that's like both LLMs picked up on this as a pretty big theme and both kind of properly taxonomized. It didn't hallucinate episodes, which is, you know, a nice thing about having all the the I got only knows if it's getting it out of the GitHub repo or out of the out of Maybe the transcript. Speed or the transcripts. I'm I'm not so sure about the transcripts for reasons I'll get into in a second. I I think the LLM may be studying on the train on this one.
• 27:45
  I don't think that like we've done a whole lot of deep work on the because the very very good superficially and then things kind of fell apart. But properly kind of taxonomized all these episodes. And we had mean, I count we've got so into debugger driven development with Dave. And then we had really what five different gnarly bugs that we did an episode on each of those bugs. So when async attacks
• 28:15
  Adam Leventhal: Actually, I think I have six. Yeah. Okay. You go. Okay.
• 28:18
  Bryan Cantrill: When async attacks, adventures and data corruption, future lock, our grown up CFS data corruption bug, death by uptime. Am missing one?
• 28:27
  Adam Leventhal: Hell is other networks?
• 28:28
  Bryan Cantrill: Hell is other networks. Of course.
• 28:30
  Adam Leventhal: Because that
• 28:30
  Bryan Cantrill: I mean, that was That was absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. That and actually, that bug in many ways is like actually an even bet I mean, the thing I love about that bug is that is something we actually saw in the field.
• 28:41
  Adam Leventhal: Yeah.
• 28:43
  Bryan Cantrill: Which I thought was great. So I yeah. No. We got a lot like really those are all great episodes. And actually, it's funny because we did so many of those that our colleague Laura has a great blog entry up last week.
• 28:58
  And on a bug that we had in the service processor in bringing up Cosmo. And there was like, it didn't quite get the traction on Hacker News that deserved, you know, next time I guess write a milk toast RFT as opposed to like really deep technical work apparently. But I actually probably need to get that one in the second chance pull on Acker News. But there was one comment on Acker News which is like, oh yeah, you know, I love the podcast episode of this. And I'm like that we actually didn't do a podcast episode.
• 29:28
  This is actually a different I mean, I know I know it feels I know I know it feels like everybody How is that possible? And we probably should do a podcast episode of this, but you're actually thinking of the different SP walk even though think of death by uptime. But the I I loved I was so great I think to have on each of those having the team on and being able to to to kind of and because each of those was a really gnarly problem. Like the the I I don't feel like any of those was a a simple problem. And it was great to get people in their own words talking about it.
• 30:01
  So I love that. I mean, know what you're I mean, clearly, I know that you'd be you'd be right to to love and call me right now because you're like, oh really? Oh, this is interesting. Oh, people like an episode that where we talk about an interesting punk that we debugged. Oh, I wonder if anyone had ever made that observation before.
• 30:17
  No? Oh, okay. Thanks.
• 30:19
  Adam Leventhal: I know I know I mean, in in the spirit of Festivus and the airing of grievances, even though I know I've already aired these grievances, like, do do you remember the I I I think I pasted into chat in in during that episode all of the all of the DMs I had sent you wanting to do that episode. And they started to be like, hey. I really love that idea you had, Brian, to do an episode about this. I was trying to kind of
• 30:44
  Bryan Cantrill: intercept you. Yeah. Yeah. You're trying to accept me. It's like no.
• 30:46
  I like it. It was the end of the hey. Look. And one of those worked. We can't say which one.
• 30:50
  But but but but one of those worked. Yeah. No. That that was and even the dog loved it. I mean, I think it was the the those were so yes.
• 30:59
  Of course, we know the dog is like, I'm not saying I loved it. No. Sorry. I've got I'm saying I was here for
• 31:05
  Adam Leventhal: it.
• 31:05
  Bryan Cantrill: Yeah. I had to listen for it. Exactly. Don't put barks in my mouth, please. But I I thought they would we the other thing I love about this, I mean, is what you and I like I think love about these just in general too, is that when these systems fail, they will reveal themselves.
• 31:21
  And every one of these failures, which are actually pretty different, I mean, with the exception of death by uptime sounding a lot like the the bug we described the plug entry even though it's totally different. But each of these is a kind of in a different aspect of the system. So I thought it was and there's a lot to learn from it. So I thought the anyway, I thought those were were great. I I just wish you had told me sooner that we should be talking about adventurous data corruption.
• 31:43
  If only if you had said it sooner or more frequently You know?
• 31:46
  Adam Leventhal: That's on me. That's right. Right. There's only one person to blame. That's me.
• 31:51
  No. I love that there's a theme too. I mean, I just feel like, you know, I think sometimes we we talk about, you know, junior engineers reading this, college I mean, listen to this and or college students listen to this. And I think that those are all such terrific episodes and and such terrific learning experiences. Like, I learned from those episodes.
• 32:11
  You know, certainly certainly, as we're debugging, no one person is is the way I mean, maybe with the exception of Cliff last week. But, by and large, it's not just one person figuring it out. And, and a lot of great techniques, a lot of great sort of, you know, guidance for just how to take incremental steps on those things. So I think those are always super fun.
• 32:33
  Bryan Cantrill: Totally. And Cliff would be the first to say that very much the baton was passed. There were a bunch of folks who've done a lot of work on that problem that allowed him to really take the kind of the next step on that. So no. I I agree with you.
• 32:42
  Each one of those was a real team effort. Yeah. And it was so the so I asked the I I asked our our LLM friends how 2025 contrasted to 2024. And the the the the presence of these episodes on debugging, has it drawing some big philosophical conclusions that I'm not like, I'm not sure. Like, it's ridiculous.
• 33:05
  Adam Leventhal: Wow. You guys write garbage code now. Like, 2024, your code was tight.
• 33:10
  Bryan Cantrill: No. They both said that, like, you know, 20 the 2024 was about the the philosophy of building systems. And 2025 was about the pathologies of those systems when they're built. This is about the the I believe it was ChatGPT that called 2025 relative to 2024, quote, painfully concrete, unquote, which I'm like, again,
• 33:34
  Adam Leventhal: I don't
• 33:34
  Bryan Cantrill: know if this is like Did you
• 33:36
  Adam Leventhal: like, is it reviewing us on, like, Apple Podcasts? Because, like, no thanks on that one.
• 33:41
  Bryan Cantrill: Yeah. I know painfully concrete is I feel like something mean, I feel like this is feedback I may have gotten more than once in my life. So the but I thought that was it. You then I kept thinking about it, maybe that does actually counterbrief. I mean, because we're talking about a couple of these things that we are that you only do get in a bit in a system that is a bit more mature or is in a is in the field.
• 34:02
  So I think there's some like slight accidental truth. I think we've been debugging really gnarly problems all along. And I think we've been talking about them somewhat all along and I would in particular like I think that if one is interested also in the hardware side like the bring up episodes, all of them and we had bring up Cosmo this year really get into all the nasty issues we see in bringing up a new board. The so I I think we've been talking about it all along, I think it's also true that like, yeah, we actually definitely talked about more in 2025 and maybe it does reflect, know, he I and again, all of the LM suggestions on this are are, you know, they want and would you like me to write a one sentence paragraph on on each of these years and do you want me to do this? I mean, it's always like it always ends with this like, do you want me to take it much further kind of question to you?
• 34:48
  Do know what I mean? Like, do you want me to like, should I go tattoo this on my knuckles and, you know, strip it away and run through the streets? I'm like, no. No. No.
• 34:55
  None of that would be necessary right now. Thank you very much.
• 34:58
  Adam Leventhal: You know, I I think I am a victim of, like, the the memory that ChatGeePeeTee has because I have told it to be terse so many times. Oh. And then I've I in fact, I've told it to be terse to the point where I am asking it for more information. Like, if I'm not asking it for more information, it's not being terse enough, that it now just gives me one word responses, like, very frequently. So I I think I may have overfit
• 35:25
  Bryan Cantrill: that one. Maybe maybe overshot
• 35:26
  Adam Leventhal: the mark on that one.
• 35:27
  Bryan Cantrill: Yeah. They they like, ChatDeep is like, look, frankly, I'm walking on eggshells with you. So I am trying to use the fewest words possible. I and I I've got a bunch of ideas of things that I wanna do, but I'm gonna go save all them for for Cantrell. He's he seems to love them.
• 35:41
  I'm like, which I don't. Don't want any of these, but you know, I I
• 35:44
  Adam Leventhal: I'm not gonna tell you that. That's fine. Yeah. I get it.
• 35:46
  Bryan Cantrill: Yeah. So I so that that was a big theme. Mean, of course, it wasn't they weren't all debugging episodes, but there were more that were just about engineering at Oxide. I think we had more on and a fewer hot takes. Right?
• 35:59
  I think which is, like, probably good. Right? I think.
• 36:01
  Adam Leventhal: Yeah. I think I counted, like, eight or nine or 10, like, Oxide kinda like hanging with the oxide crew, what it's like to build this oxide, you know, bringing up something, you know, having Robert on, Dave on, talking about some of the kind of structure around how we build stuff.
• 36:18
  Bryan Cantrill: Yeah. That was I thought episode with Robert was great. Yeah. For sure. Really, really enjoyed that conversation with Robert.
• 36:24
  Also, can you talk about the AI work on that one? That was great AI work on the image.
• 36:29
  Adam Leventhal: Yeah. So that that was like an AI assisted image. It was an image of Robert at a whiteboard drawing. The original image had, like, five other people in it that I thought were extraneous.
• 36:42
  Bryan Cantrill: Yeah. Just like we're actually gonna we're gonna airbrush these people out of the we're gonna,
• 36:45
  Adam Leventhal: you know Exactly.
• 36:46
  Bryan Cantrill: Channel our inner Soviet. And it's like, yep. Nope. Not you. You're No.
• 36:52
  You're now. It was just
• 36:53
  Adam Leventhal: Robert designing everything in a whiteboard by himself with no audience. No questions.
• 36:59
  Bryan Cantrill: And, I mean, admittedly, to be fair, it's like, these are actually people that were all, like, broadly so affiliated with the company. It was just like it's just like their legs or what. I mean, it's like it wasn't it wasn't flattering.
• 37:08
  Adam Leventhal: It was just the framing. It was right. It was framing. Right.
• 37:10
  Bryan Cantrill: Yeah. So anyway, that that that was the that
• 37:12
  Adam Leventhal: was an
• 37:13
  Bryan Cantrill: excellent image and I love that conversation. I thought that conversation was was really great. I think that the I mean, obviously, we're we all feel very very lucky to work with all of our colleagues, but Robert's disposition was one that really I mean, it really was a a a great kind of one episode synopsis of our engineering ethos and approach. Really merits merits to relisten with it. That was very good.
• 37:36
  Adam Leventhal: Yeah. Because someone mentioned it in chat, I guess they they they talk about you know, we talked about running into Dennis Ritchie trying to give a DTrace demo. Apparently, we talked about it this season. But but we
• 37:48
  Bryan Cantrill: I in fact, TTC episode. Right. Yes.
• 37:51
  Adam Leventhal: But we had in fact told that story maybe two years previously. But so I I but I'm delighted that for somebody, it was a highlight of the season even if for somebody else, it might have been a highlight of a different season. And maybe we'll tell it again next year.
• 38:05
  Bryan Cantrill: You know, I think that people should take some solace in us retelling a story that we've already told because you'll find that the details tend to line up. You know?
• 38:17
  Adam Leventhal: I mean I was gonna say it really emulates the Brian and Adam, like, IRL experience as well.
• 38:22
  Bryan Cantrill: It does. What's really emulates I think, like, you're much better than this than I am. I mean, like and I I so pride myself on like, I mean, I really try to pride myself. I live in fear, I should say, of just, like, end endlessly pity.
• 38:34
  Adam Leventhal: What's the opposite of Oh, yes. Oh, it's private self.
• 38:37
  Bryan Cantrill: Right. Like, excuse me. I'll hold on a beat just being handed this. No. I the and I and then, of course, like, you read this in podcast, was like, oh my and like, it's like, it's the, you know, where were you when MCA died, which I think we've referred to like eight different times over the history of the podcast just like okay I need to wind that down.
• 38:55
  So these things I thought I hadn't repeated but I was able to actually surprise you with things about me that you had not heard.
• 39:02
  Adam Leventhal: Yes,
• 39:02
  Bryan Cantrill: true. Which I thought was in particular my my own the first $5 I made as a software engineer, I you have not heard that story. So beside that was good. But that was that was earlier in the year than when we were all at the Bowers game together as when we we met up as a company. And I was I was telling a story that I was convinced you had never heard and you literally identified it from a single syllable.
• 39:34
  You're like, wait a minute, I know this one.
• 39:35
  Adam Leventhal: Is for You that too.
• 39:36
  Bryan Cantrill: Yeah. No. And I'm like and I'm so that's I'm not gonna give people more context. That's only that's the only thing I'm gonna I'm gonna tell people. But I so I I I am always worried that we're that we're repeating these things too much, but the Dennis Ritchie story, I'm glad that we have told that twice apparently.
• 39:54
  Very good. So far. We'll get some other favorite moments. So this is Tyrone in the chat dropping in some other favorite moments. The other books in the bonfire.
• 40:06
  I love books in the box. Really love books in the box. I I I and I I'm reading and I believe a recommendation we got from books in the box. Know this is like an off I'd like off cycle books in the box, but the eccentric orbits the Iridium story that we got that was a recommendation we got in Books in the Box. And I'm really I'm loving that.
• 40:28
  It's very good. So I really love the Books
• 40:31
  Adam Leventhal: in the
• 40:31
  Bryan Cantrill: Box episodes.
• 40:32
  Adam Leventhal: Yes. I I listened to actually the Neal Stephenson book Terminal Shuck. Started that, like, the kind of the day after and and really enjoyed that. And it felt very much previous Neal Stephenson I'd read, and it felt very similar to, like, you know, experience from twenty years ago. But it's great.
• 40:52
  Bryan Cantrill: That yeah. That is I I and do you recommend it? I need to go Yeah. I I I I I gotta check it out. Yeah.
• 40:57
  Yeah. I have not not read any Neal Stephenson. Am I in a safe space?
• 41:01
  Adam Leventhal: No. No. I think I think I think you may have already answered
• 41:05
  Bryan Cantrill: that. Do I do I say that in every podcast episode? Yes. It's happening again. Are we gonna get it like what what's the chime we're gonna ring when I for my early onset dementia?
• 41:14
  Are we gonna have one for that?
• 41:14
  Adam Leventhal: It's like It's your good night and good luck.
• 41:17
  Bryan Cantrill: It is. Goddamn it. Alright.
• 41:20
  Adam Leventhal: Well, I I trimmed in the sign off just because I feel
• 41:23
  Bryan Cantrill: like it's a little repetitive. But A little repetitive. You said everything I've said. Look. I still haven't read any else.
• 41:28
  Know. I just I feel that that's like I feel that that's an aberration a little bit that I That's right. I was Is now the time to no this is not the time to mention this one mention anyway. You know I've been kind of fantasizing about a madman but for Fairchild Semiconductor. Someone needs to make that.
• 41:47
  And like I guess ring the early onset dementia chime because it's got nothing to do with anything we're talking about, but I wanted to get that out there and now it's out there.
• 41:55
  Adam Leventhal: To get it off your chest.
• 41:56
  Bryan Cantrill: I think it'd be amazing. Yeah. It'd be amazing. I'm in. I'm in.
• 42:01
  I think I think a period piece. Is it a Kickstarter? I'm I'm in. I'm in. Okay.
• 42:05
  It's a Kickstarter. It's a Kickstarter for a period piece about Fairchild. Super large demographic kind of a show.
• 42:11
  Adam Leventhal: So Speaking of poor segues, one of the things that I was hoping for this season that are are are predicted, no pun intended, was more about intel. And and we had our predictions episode where you made a great prediction about A great prediction. About Liputan. Amazing prediction.
• 42:28
  Bryan Cantrill: Well, no. My prediction was that the co CEOs would still be in place.
• 42:31
  Adam Leventhal: No. It it was sort of but you you talked a bunch about Lip Bu Tan.
• 42:35
  Bryan Cantrill: About Lip Bu. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
• 42:36
  Adam Leventhal: Yeah. So and then Lip Bu Tan joined, and then we haven't had much to say since then.
• 42:41
  Bryan Cantrill: No. We should have
• 42:43
  Adam Leventhal: I sort of thought there would be more to say. That's all.
• 42:46
  Bryan Cantrill: Yeah. Yeah. It's I'm I'm less surprised that there's not more to say. I wasn't I, you know, I I the who who knows what the future holds on.
• 42:55
  Adam Leventhal: Yeah. Big highlight for me. John Holloway dropping the oxide bingo
• 43:00
  Bryan Cantrill: for those not familiar. Very good. Wait. Because I was just here. Feels like we've always had that, but that is actually that that yeah.
• 43:06
  Yeah.
• 43:06
  Adam Leventhal: Oxide dot bingo. Amazing.
• 43:11
  Bryan Cantrill: Really amazing. That it'd been delightful. Yeah. And, you know, I think, you know, we've got I need to to ask the ask the the LLMs what they kind of think of the oxide bingo card. See what they've okay.
• 43:27
  Because this gets into the as I was like so they they're kind of cutting these big themes of 2024 versus 2025. And and I thought that was kind of interesting. And then I asked for some fan favorites. And and this is one of things got a little started to get a little funky Where because and this is, you know, the the shell game podcast gets into this. But the I mean, the big challenge with these things still is they really struggle with like, I don't know.
• 44:04
  And they they still like will go just absolutely bonkers if they feel that that's what you've asked them to do. And so like they're just happy to make up what they think are popular episodes. And they're like make up reactions and it was and you know, like some of it is like this like could I mean, this is like not an unreasonable thing. Like, yes, the death by uptime could be a favorite episode. We also only cut that two weeks ago.
• 44:30
  Is that like, this is what ChatGPT has convinced has become a touchstone episode as what one that people you know, as test of time and I mean it was it's like, okay. And ChatGPT Musically is like, well, I obviously don't have access to any of the the view counts for this stuff. So it kind of acknowledges that I I will ground this in observable audience signals that you do have. Repeat references, community chatter, longevity of discussion, and how often episodes become shorthand. EG, the async episode or the ZFS bug one etcetera.
• 45:09
  Which sounds like a great idea, but then it doesn't do any of that. Like all the I mean, like, I don't know how has death by uptime become shorthand. It's our most recent episode. That doesn't make any sense.
• 45:18
  Adam Leventhal: I I this I mean, I feel like this intern has, like, started their internship very strong, but then kinda didn't really follow-up.
• 45:25
  Bryan Cantrill: Then they kinda drifted off. Exactly. This is feel this is often happens with the LLM intern. What what emerges says ChatGPT is that audiences favor favorites skewed heavily towards painful specificity and earned insight. It's like, okay, come on.
• 45:42
  Tone it down. The and and I mean, then it kinda goes on like every episode like why it landed and you know why it's a favorite. It's like you're just making all this stuff up. So the anyway, so then like things are beginning to drift. I go over to Gemini and ask it the same question.
• 46:01
  Gemini kind of interestingly is like, does not have any of the same reticence about going into view counts. Gemini is like, oh, YouTube's a property. I can actually go. Was kind of interesting. Right?
• 46:12
  It's like, I actually well, sorry. I actually do know all your view counts by the way. I I also know your banking account balance by the way, I can kind of factor that in. And Yeah. So Gemini like our
• 46:23
  Adam Leventhal: demographic breakdown and it probably knows Yes.
• 46:26
  Bryan Cantrill: Exactly. Like, I know also it's like, I know exactly what kind of ad to put in front of you right now. By the way, a word from our sponsor. So it has the what it calls the undisputed heavyweight. Gemini does.
• 46:38
  It's undisputed undisputed heavyweight. Of the has one that's just like, this one is got it's got the highest view counts of the year, which as far as I can tell is actually true.
• 46:50
  Adam Leventhal: I'm gonna guess it's system software in the large with data. Bingo. Bingo. That's it. Yeah.
• 46:57
  Bryan Cantrill: That was a a great episode.
• 46:59
  Adam Leventhal: Really good episode, and I I do know that the view counts were high. And, you know, the the the chatter such as it was was, you know, was was pretty good. So I think it was people people took a lot away from that. And I I I do see it referenced from time to time.
• 47:15
  Bryan Cantrill: And, you know, as usual, like, Gemini, like, wrote one sentence too long on this. So it was like, you know, it bridged the gap between code and reality, da da da da, you know. And then its final sentence on this is, it resonated with every engineer who has ever had to push a scary update button. It's like, yeah, cut strike.
• 47:33
  Adam Leventhal: Did not no. That one's not. Yeah.
• 47:37
  Bryan Cantrill: And then and then it kinda goes into and then again, it it kind of makes up the popularity of the others. I mean, it I think. Right? I mean, it's like the they they talk about scaling manufacturing. That's the how it's made favorite.
• 47:50
  I'm like, I think it's great episode. I'm not just like I mean, I would love to think that I don't know.
• 47:56
  Adam Leventhal: Yeah. The home clappers who are trying to to ramp up Sweep up the scale. That's fair. Yeah.
• 48:03
  Bryan Cantrill: It does he does call out founder versus investor as the as the crossover hit. I I did Sure. I'm exactly sure why not. I really do. I I love that episode.
• 48:13
  I thought that was fun. And the I also loved the fact that Liz's current startup has an LLM based on that one has kind of with one's own voice and expertise. And then we could actually go to that and people were during the episode going to the LLM that features Liz and Jerry as LLMs and like positing things about the episode, and then they were replying in kind. And it was like, it was pretty good. So pretty sassy.
• 48:37
  It's funny.
• 48:38
  Adam Leventhal: So That was good. We haven't talked about I think the episode that was not the most popular, but, like, I think that we were most excited about, which was character limit.
• 48:48
  Bryan Cantrill: Oh, character limit is is outstanding.
• 48:51
  Adam Leventhal: Kate Conger and and Ride Back On, I think we kind of we're both very excited about the book and really excited to have them on. And audio issues abounded as they do, But it was a really fun conversation with those guys.
• 49:05
  Bryan Cantrill: And biggest get your get biggest get. I thought that was the, that was a great get of the year. Yeah. I thought it would, that was, and it was a great conversation. I love that book.
• 49:14
  Yeah. I I made the arguable mistake. Like I left my physical copy with my mom in Mexico. I'm like, mom, you have to read this. This is so outstanding.
• 49:26
  She hasn't. And now I'm kind of got the awkward thing of like, I want the book back. You're obviously not gonna read it. So just like, again, anyway.
• 49:32
  Adam Leventhal: Mean, that's a book I I like I referenced last night. That's a it's something that I It's
• 49:37
  Bryan Cantrill: very good.
• 49:38
  Adam Leventhal: I talk about frequently that along with careless people. Careless people. Kinda hand in hand.
• 49:44
  Bryan Cantrill: And, you know, I also there there's a there's a joke that we the term jog your memory about about jokes that you have that we laugh at. Just they they kind of the the Tinker Bell character for the for Sarah Williams. Sarah Wynn Williams as a frequent guest.
• 50:00
  Adam Leventhal: Like, I think you think I'm kidding, but, like, I do want to do that episode. Like, I want to have Sarah Wynn Williams in the in the in the office with us.
• 50:09
  Bryan Cantrill: In the office with us. Absolutely.
• 50:11
  Adam Leventhal: Not saying anything per the court order or whatever. It's just us pretending to have heard something about it.
• 50:19
  Bryan Cantrill: I I think it'd be great if, like, in addition to Meta issuing a restraining order against Sarah Williams, Sarah Williams issues a restraining order against us from using her as a I'm not on I'm not on your podcast. I'm like, well, that's what we you're just abiding by this restraining order.
• 50:36
  Adam Leventhal: Wait. Wait. We know you were never on the podcast.
• 50:39
  Bryan Cantrill: No. Seriously, this is disturbed and I like you're actually not abiding by the restraining order. So you need to stop, please. I, you know, I I think that 2026 needs to be a year. Like, we gotta get a c and d from someone.
• 50:53
  I I just feel that, like, it's it it gets Stretch goal. It's a stretch goal. We just haven't arrived into it. We haven't got the lawyers involved yet.
• 51:00
  Adam Leventhal: Clearly, Fox is not gonna send it to us. Like
• 51:03
  Bryan Cantrill: We're not I I we I don't know how much harder we could be trying.
• 51:06
  Adam Leventhal: The estate of Jean Paul Sartre is going to. Like, when are we gonna get this letter?
• 51:12
  Bryan Cantrill: When are we gonna this letter? Come on. But that book is so, so, so good. I would love to also have her on if and when she can she can join us because I thought that was the the the book is obviously sending. No.
• 51:26
  I thought that that episode was great. I think, you know, another an episode that I okay. What are episodes that you have sent to people, if any?
• 51:35
  Adam Leventhal: I sent the one the one with Michael Littman, the the AI in higher education.
• 51:40
  Bryan Cantrill: Oh, that one.
• 51:41
  Adam Leventhal: Yeah. I sent I sent like Like, I sent that one to my folks. I've sent that one to my both my technical and non technical college friends. I think it's like Michael is so terrific. I I thought he had such a thoughtful take on AI.
• 51:57
  And and, you know, not to throw out my shoulder patting us on the back, but, you know, I was I was pleased that, you know, we came up with this way. There I thought this was a very good guest to have a better conversation about AI. I think we had had a lot of conversations about AI that were that were good, but I think this was an area where it's easy to be simplistic and reductive. I think Michael had had a had such a thoughtful, considerate conversation with him. I really enjoyed that.
• 52:26
  Bryan Cantrill: I really enjoyed that too. And I I also sent that to I sent that to my 18 year old, my my college freshman to get his perspective on it. Because this is something that everybody is grappling with and it's a really important subject especially in higher ed and I thought Michael was great. I thought it was really it was that was a terrific conversation. Another great get for you by the way.
• 52:46
  Oh, thank you. We are keeping And and you you're I and I I know that this is all about getting be getting Morris next year and I trust me, I am feeling the heat. I am feeling the heat because he
• 52:57
  Adam Leventhal: is Good. Especially if I get Evan, forget about it. You're like way behind.
• 53:00
  Bryan Cantrill: Even Evan, I I get yeah. I'm still gonna be like, wait a minute, that guy I played ultimate with that guy. I don't know. I'm like, no no no no. I didn't play ultimate with you.
• 53:07
  You can come. It's fine. The that was a that was a really great conversation. And I so I sent I I have definitely sent that one. And then another one that I've actually sent a decent amount is and I I know it's off our demographic, but diving in with Robert Bogart.
• 53:24
  And the I've I've had a decent number of parents of athletes reach out to me after my blog post about college baseball, venture capital, and the long maybe. And that and then that listening to that episode as well. Yeah. So I was really grateful for Robert for joining us. And again, I know it's I know it's a little bit I we but we gotta take you off the beaten trail a couple of times.
• 53:49
  You know, I feel like I I I just doesn't bother me that like we're gonna have things that are that that people aren't necessarily expecting from us.
• 53:55
  Adam Leventhal: That's right. I mean, we did have, like, a 100% fewer baseball episodes this season.
• 54:00
  Bryan Cantrill: Yes. I mean, if you're calling I mean, but we had we also had a million percent or more. I'm not sure what you're coming up from zero, but what on NCAA swimming. Right? I just thought so I'm not sure.
• 54:08
  Like I I mean sure. I mean, they'll like you know, out of the frying pan into the fire. Yes.
• 54:13
  Adam Leventhal: That's fair enough.
• 54:14
  Bryan Cantrill: But I thought that was that was another great one. And so that one I I I've sent to a bunch. And I of course, we I also end up as you can imagine, sending episodes to folks that are contemplating becoming Oxide customers or becoming Oxide wanna apply to Oxide. So it's been a great factor for that. And I've sent a bunch of them out for that.
• 54:32
  But those are episodes that I've sent to to more personal folks.
• 54:35
  Adam Leventhal: So Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Same. But but that but kudos to you for bumping the the listen count for everyone applying to Oxide being sent a bunch of podcast episodes to listen to.
• 54:45
  Yeah. Exactly. Good strategy.
• 54:47
  Bryan Cantrill: Yeah. You gotta gain this somehow, and you might as well do it with applicants. So, you know, you gotta go actually would be curious to go because, you know, we do point every oxide applicant to our conversation with with Gergay Oros. Yeah. Yeah.
• 55:03
  From from from 2024. From 2024. Is that what that was? 2024. Okay.
• 55:08
  Yeah. God. They it's all I that one should have much higher view counts. Listen counts. If it but I'm not convinced it does because I'm we definitely get plenty like, if you're gonna apply to Oxide, please do listen to this thing by the way because it's like, it does have there's there's a bunch of stuff in there that is is helpful and germane.
• 55:26
  Adam Leventhal: That was 2023. Jeez. I'm That's what I thought. Yeah. Know it's late twenty twenty three.
• 55:31
  Know
• 55:31
  Bryan Cantrill: you're Yeah. That makes sense. No. I know it was late because it was like dark and cold in the office. Late in terms of like late late in the year in the winter.
• 55:39
  But yeah, that's it. So but that does that one have higher view counts? I mean, are you on the transistor looking at the transistor dashboard there?
• 55:46
  Adam Leventhal: I'm not. I should I should what am I doing here? Why am I
• 55:49
  Bryan Cantrill: the way, looking at transistor, as long as we're looking at transistor, we got, you know, we we get country downloads and, you know, we I it'd be interesting to know how we're doing. I think, you know, last year we called out like our downloads in Namibia. We've got, you know, 20 downloads in Namibia this year. So not sure where that that kind of accounts. We do sell some countries with with zero downloads.
• 56:11
  Several which are war torn. What about just like Papua New Guinea? I feel like Papua New Guinea. If you're if you're in Port Moresby, I feel that you can listen to Ox Head Friends. Like Papua New Guinea, I think you can just, like, up it a little bit.
• 56:21
  I feel like you know?
• 56:22
  Adam Leventhal: Yeah. Just grab the baseball episode and send it to your buddy in Papua New Guinea, we'd really
• 56:26
  Bryan Cantrill: You know what? I will. I think I think Port Mores Beacon really I I think it will that'll that'll resonate with them.
• 56:31
  Adam Leventhal: So the The Gurgae episode hiring process is top six. Top six.
• 56:35
  Bryan Cantrill: Okay. Of all time. Of
• 56:37
  Adam Leventhal: all time. Sense.
• 56:38
  Bryan Cantrill: Yeah. That does make sense. So that one that stat you can definitely view as gamed because we are we are asking people. That's that is that's wild. What are some of the others in the are there any this year that are in the the top episodes of all time?
• 56:53
  Adam Leventhal: Okay. So the stats are a little Specious. Funky. So the reason the stats are funky on Transistor in particular is and the reason why the while United States is our the most common country that has downloaded it, the most common state?
• 57:12
  Bryan Cantrill: Arizona, baby.
• 57:14
  Adam Leventhal: Arizona, where in somebody's basement, they were, like, downloading the most recent 10 episodes over and over again for a year and a half, and then it stopped. So thanks for not downloading them anymore, but it means that our twenty twenty five stats are not like, we we have fewer downloads because that computer in Arizona has been turned off.
• 57:36
  Bryan Cantrill: Yeah. Okay. So then the when you're what are you looking at for are you looking at all time? Or are you looking at for the okay. Not for the first yeah.
• 57:44
  Interesting.
• 57:45
  Adam Leventhal: Yeah. So Yeah. If I look all time actually, our predictions episode this year was our most popular episode this year. And then after that was the one with Robert, Holistic and Shearing.
• 57:56
  Bryan Cantrill: Yeah. That's great. Yeah. Nice. Well, good stuff.
• 58:00
  I the and I guess all time I think that's funny that our second all time least one I'm looking at is crucible. Yeah. Though they they whether you promised that Alan Alan can come join us because don't worry, no one will listen to it. It's like actually everyone will listen to it as it turns out. That's right.
• 58:17
  And good to see the r f d episode right up. I love that was that's a that was a great conversation.
• 58:22
  Adam Leventhal: Yes. Yes.
• 58:23
  Bryan Cantrill: So I'm really glad to see that one up there. Yes. Yes. Some some some good stuff. The alright.
• 58:29
  So the we that that was a great episode. Are there others that we before we we get off of this because the the it's another thing, the theme I wanna hit.
• 58:39
  Adam Leventhal: Yeah. Those were the episodes that I that I had called out in particular.
• 58:42
  Bryan Cantrill: Yeah. So okay. So then I with the fan favorites, you can feel the LLMs wobbling a little bit. Like they're beginning to move into bullshit. And this is just like, okay, this is not And then I I asked it for well, in part because I actually was genuinely curious about what it would find.
• 59:05
  I say, my prompt being the podcast infamously makes Gen X references. Were there some notable ones this year? And this is where all LLMs just went straight into the wilderness and lost their confidently with absolute confidence completely lost their mind and just started absolutely making up shit and making up references to, oh, like, yeah, the they make up they make a bunch of office space references, which I think we basically don't make. Like maybe. Maybe a little bit.
• 59:41
  No. I mean, the only I mean, I feel like I I the office space reference that I make, I would say the most frequently is like a Michael Bolton m dash mashup of like, you know, that
• 59:54
  Adam Leventhal: Yeah. Right. Right. Right. Right.
• 59:56
  He's the one who's gonna change his name because A 100%. He's one who sucks. Yeah.
• 1:00:00
  Bryan Cantrill: That's right. That's right. And so I'd like that I feel as but okay. Don't think I made that here but I don't know then again. So like no.
• 1:00:07
  Then it says like they make references like we definitely No. 100% don't. Bugs Bunny Don't know. Like that going could go either way. That goes one way, one way only goes straight there.
• 1:00:20
  There will be no references on this podcast. And if that quip makes it into the recording, I'll be amazed because that's how canceled as far as we're concerned. Like that is that is a zero percenter. We are not making references. And then it's it just went it's like, they make Nirvana references and grunge era references.
• 1:00:39
  And they they started like these are the ones that they made a Nirvana reference in. It's like I mean, it was just I mean, absolutely unhinged. At one point, ChatGPT says when summarizing all of this up, it says this isn't nostalgia, it's epistemology. I mean, that's gotta be the most LLM thing ever generated.
• 1:01:13
  Adam Leventhal: Oh my god. That's crazy.
• 1:01:15
  Bryan Cantrill: I mean, I I I just don't know the cognitive dissonance that you would have to make. I I mean, hopefully, that doesn't sound like me. I mean, my god. And then it's like, they're they're making like they think we make a bunch of talking heads references. I don't
• 1:01:33
  Adam Leventhal: know that I would confidently even know how
• 1:01:36
  Bryan Cantrill: to do that. I don't know. I would I if you ordered me if you if you if you put a bayonet in my ribs and ordered me to make a day a talking head reference, talking head reference, I don't even know, like, how I would start on that.
• 1:01:47
  Adam Leventhal: I mean, I like I I did see David Byrne live talking to Dave Eggers.
• 1:01:53
  Bryan Cantrill: Stabbing the ribs. Nope. Not good enough. I mean, it's just like sorry. We're not asking for facts about talking heads.
• 1:01:59
  I want you to make a talking heads reference. I'd like
• 1:02:01
  Adam Leventhal: Okay. I will I will say that I he he did get on stage and do they had a karaoke machine from Japan that had Talking Heads with, like, the lyrics messed up, and he was just going along with it. So that was fairly delightful.
• 1:02:16
  Bryan Cantrill: Okay. That counts. That you know, we wanna Good. That's what over the track of bandits of your most ever track of bandits. My ribs are gonna get it, though.
• 1:02:25
  I I think that that is so and then they and then they actually this is kind of and this is where you you do wonder about the power of these things to kind of induce a sense of dementia where they're like, oh, then they make WarGames references. I'm like, okay, maybe. We might. We might go on. Expand.
• 1:02:45
  A big topic of me.
• 1:02:46
  Adam Leventhal: Did we talk about Dave Hits this season? Okay. That's good.
• 1:02:49
  Bryan Cantrill: I think it was last season, wasn't it? I think that was
• 1:02:52
  Adam Leventhal: Yeah. Good. Yeah. And so it was his last season. They said Dave had said had come up in in as another source of cease and desist.
• 1:03:02
  Yes.
• 1:03:04
  Bryan Cantrill: That's right. That's right. And then and then it it calls out the meta Gen X humor of weaponized weariness. Perhaps the most on brand Gen X reference of 2025 wasn't a specific artifact, but a tone. Dry fatalism.
• 1:03:19
  Humor without hope washing. Laughing at complexity. Not away from it. It's like, what where are we? We're just we're just making shit up at this point.
• 1:03:28
  Adam Leventhal: That one that one feels more personal to me. I mean I am exhausted, but yes.
• 1:03:32
  Bryan Cantrill: But you can't know that. No. We can't know that. We sorry. Yes.
• 1:03:37
  Yes. But we don't know that's not what we're doing here. We're not I don't think that drive fatalism here like no. I mean No. I thought that's a lucky guess.
• 1:03:44
  That that's not I mean, it's just a lucky guess. And that's got nothing to do with the actual podcast. Yeah. And then I I asked it for of like, no. Okay.
• 1:03:54
  I want the Gen X reference in the content itself. So do want to actually, This is I was just kind of curious to see if they would pull it. But one of my, I gotta say favorite moments was when we had Oliver had join us on the stage. Mhmm.
• 1:04:10
  Adam Leventhal: And the Books in the Box episode.
• 1:04:12
  Bryan Cantrill: Books in the Box episode. And start he like is comp either we're making a Knight Rider reference and he's rolling with it or maybe he even he made a Knight Rider reference. Whatever it was, he was rolling with Knight Rider. And I'm like, doesn't add up. I doesn't add up like that does not make sense because I know for sure that thing did not leap the generational chasm to the contrary, Kit is lying at the bottom of a ravine.
• 1:04:39
  The like it absolutely did not. And so I pushed on like, how do you know about Night Rocks? I know that Oliver's just like not of not an excerpts, not of the vintage. And I'm like, there's gotta be something. And then he revealed that like actually it was they were they referenced in the SpongeBob movie.
• 1:04:57
  I just felt like that was a moment of just like a maximum triumph for me. That was my that was my biggest triumph
• 1:05:02
  Adam Leventhal: of the year. Okay. Good. Good. Good.
• 1:05:05
  Good to hang your head on that one.
• 1:05:06
  Bryan Cantrill: I just felt like I I called it. I knew it. I knew that. So I wanted to see if it would actually pull that out, which is just like a ridiculous hope because like obviously the it's like it's good, but it's not an actual like magician. And so it I asked it for like explicit like what about Gen X references in the content itself and it just I get it's just off into the absolute weeds and more just like and like so it's like saying, oh, like the the episode in which it referenced was system software in the large and shoot out at the CNCF corral.
• 1:05:43
  And then it's got like quotes from that that are references that we didn't make. It's like, wow. That is okay. Yeah. That is so my Gemini, you're ChatGPT just just lit itself on fire.
• 1:05:57
  So you're up, pal. Are you gonna do any
• 1:06:01
  Adam Leventhal: I'm amazed you didn't just make a Top Gun reference. I felt like I felt like I saw that one coming.
• 1:06:07
  Bryan Cantrill: That I didn't make a Top Gun reference right now?
• 1:06:09
  Adam Leventhal: Right now. Right this moment.
• 1:06:11
  Bryan Cantrill: Right now. Did that that you know, I that that I should have. That cougar was number one, lost his edge turned in his wings. Now you're number one? Yeah.
• 1:06:18
  You know I should have. Gemini. Gemini? I I can't believe I gotta do this Gemini. I gotta send you to Miramar.
• 1:06:27
  Thank you. Good luck. That's right. Alright. That was good.
• 1:06:31
  Thank you. Thank you for the prompt on that one. Ain't gonna lose my edge maybe a little bit. Yeah. Does feel like a bit of a layup for myself as long as we're on Gen X references.
• 1:06:38
  You think that like you know all those synapses would be hot but I guess not. Okay. No, that's a great reference. The so I asked Gemini the same thing and this got a little bit like weirder and a little more like both more accurate and less accurate. So first of all, it's like, well, first of all, you've got to talk about the Fox reality TV throwback in when async attacks, a clear reference to when animals attack, which I guess it kind of is.
• 1:07:06
  Mhmm. Yeah. But it's like not an explicit homage.
• 1:07:10
  Adam Leventhal: No. Yeah. I mean, I yeah. Not an explicit homage. Think like riffing on a theme.
• 1:07:17
  I think
• 1:07:17
  Bryan Cantrill: we would also, like, we would make a if we're gonna make an explicit homage, it would be to man versus beast. Did you ever watch any of those?
• 1:07:24
  Adam Leventhal: This is like like Kobe Yash or like Joey Chestnut versus a bear.
• 1:07:29
  Bryan Cantrill: Yeah. Yes. Did you watch those? They are so good.
• 1:07:34
  Adam Leventhal: It's like it's like a Olympic sprinter, like Usain Bolt versus a zombie horse or something.
• 1:07:39
  Bryan Cantrill: A zebra. A zebra. Zebra. Yeah. I just felt like that was extremely educational about the about I mean, I think that and, I mean, you know, I'd also like to say for my own children, you know what has cast a long shadow is wildcats.
• 1:07:51
  Do you guys watch wildcats Yes. On PBS? That thing is like super informative, hits kids at an age when they're impressionable and they watch a lot of it. So there's an entire generation like drifting around with some super weird like animal knowledge about like, you know, a loris or whatever or, you know
• 1:08:12
  Adam Leventhal: Octonauts two. Octonauts two embeds a lot of like esoteric marine knowledge.
• 1:08:18
  Bryan Cantrill: That is great. You know, and I look forward to these gen z podcasters of the future, like casually dropping wildcats references and I'm gonna I'm gonna roll with that is is is what I wanna say. So the so the anyway, man versus beast. And then also the orangutan versus the sumo wrestler. It's super educational.
• 1:08:36
  Like it just like the orangutan is like much smaller. It looks I mean, lighter and it like effortlessly defeats the sumo wrestler in a tug of war. I mean, is effortless. You do not want to mess with the chimpanzee. I mean, our orangutan rather.
• 1:08:50
  Anyway, deep thoughts. Man versus beasts worth checking out. It it turns out like we are slower and then we are slower than absolutely everything, but also smarter than absolutely everything. And as it turns out like that's a that's a big difference. Did you know that that humans are the only animal that use wind direction to hunt?
• 1:09:10
  Adam Leventhal: I did not know that.
• 1:09:11
  Bryan Cantrill: Isn't it amazing?
• 1:09:12
  Adam Leventhal: It is amazing.
• 1:09:14
  Bryan Cantrill: How you've learned? You're like, where are we are we right now? Are we on the are you just like stop generating? Are we on, a just like, are you on a chat to But
• 1:09:21
  Adam Leventhal: are you
• 1:09:21
  Bryan Cantrill: still You're still reading the transcript. You're still reading the transcript. Where are you? This is still Gemini. Is Gemini.
• 1:09:29
  Is like, oh my god. That's actually you. Okay. Jesus. Like,
• 1:09:32
  Adam Leventhal: I've I've told it to be as terse as possible. You're like, just just go.
• 1:09:35
  Bryan Cantrill: Just go.
• 1:09:36
  Adam Leventhal: Like, just
• 1:09:36
  Bryan Cantrill: Just go. Rip.
• 1:09:37
  Adam Leventhal: Just just whatever's on your mind.
• 1:09:39
  Bryan Cantrill: Whatever is Just let it rip.
• 1:09:41
  Adam Leventhal: Just let it rip. Absolutely. So
• 1:09:44
  Bryan Cantrill: alright. So then so that is like a kind of barely holding on and then it just gets like super weird. The Fincher knot. I'm not even sure if that's a reference. Oh, we think we're making a a reference to seven with Brad Pitt.
• 1:10:01
  Adam Leventhal: Oh, I don't think I'd make a ref a seven reference like in public.
• 1:10:07
  Bryan Cantrill: I I I definitely I just think that would be a very weird reference to make. And and then like, so okay. Let's actually go into like, what about the content itself? And again, it just actually it kind of like with more specificity but absolutely wrong goes through all the references we made to Logan's Run again with quote to Spaceballs again with quotes to The Princess Bride again with quotes to Glengarry Glen Ross, to Clarks, to Spinal Tap, and all just like making up quotes. And like, wow.
• 1:10:41
  Okay. So Yeah. I feel
• 1:10:43
  Adam Leventhal: like we're insufficiently like culture and literary, and we should drop more references to to these important works.
• 1:10:49
  Bryan Cantrill: No. I actually don't feel we should no. I feel that the the I know. I feel that we drop I know because I think that, like, we do drop references that travel less than these.
• 1:11:00
  Adam Leventhal: That's definitely true.
• 1:11:02
  Bryan Cantrill: Which is like I mean arguably undermines the point because it's like well okay then people will get it. They just think it's like they should be ringing their onset dementia chime. They actually don't think that this is don't realize that you're making a reference to something. I do like it when you and I make a reference to only our shared history that no one can possibly know, which we do try to explain but we don't always do that.
• 1:11:20
  Adam Leventhal: Probably fail. Yeah.
• 1:11:22
  Bryan Cantrill: I mean, I feel like we would make a casual reference to Adam Lemithal hardware engineer and not people would just like A lot.
• 1:11:27
  Adam Leventhal: I think a lot. I think Do
• 1:11:29
  Bryan Cantrill: think we do that a lot? Do we get
• 1:11:30
  Adam Leventhal: that actually? I think in my life, I I I mean, in my life at Oxide, I do hear about Adam Lementhal hardware engineer, which is even more awkward since we work with a lot of hardware engineers who definitely don't necessarily get the joke. Yeah. That's right. We
• 1:11:43
  Bryan Cantrill: work Joke is doing a lot of work on
• 1:11:44
  Adam Leventhal: that one. I'm not sure,
• 1:11:45
  Bryan Cantrill: but yeah.
• 1:11:45
  Adam Leventhal: Also, a fair amount of discussion about Adam Leventhal, tax expert or Tax adviser? Adam Leventhal.
• 1:11:56
  Bryan Cantrill: Absolutely. Yeah. Absolutely. No. I I mean, Adam Leventhal mob accountant.
• 1:12:00
  I mean, I feel like there's That's right. Yeah. I wear many hats here. Yeah. Many
• 1:12:05
  Adam Leventhal: hats. Absolutely. Talented many hats.
• 1:12:07
  Bryan Cantrill: Yes. Yes. Yes. I mean, that's kind of what you're getting here at a limpall esquire. You're getting a Yeah.
• 1:12:15
  So at that point, I'm like, okay, these guys are just kinda off the. So I think they kinda lost they but it was interesting. Like, the the cultural resonance does not actually they have a harder time on the cultural resonance. Makes sense. Yeah.
• 1:12:29
  Makes sense. Alright. What were some other oh, I also loved our the the the Richard Scarry conversation. Dana's gorilla finally making a cameo Yeah.
• 1:12:42
  Adam Leventhal: With this Matthew. This Yeah. Yeah. Talking about, you know, all all all the folks in busy town making oxide work. Yeah.
• 1:12:50
  That that was one of my favorite images as well even though I mean, especially because it took no work.
• 1:12:53
  Bryan Cantrill: But but I the the best kind. But, I mean Even the abstract. Yeah. Well, he also just raised it like busy town. It's like if if busy town resonates with you, like, you know, you're you're our people.
• 1:13:04
  I just think that there's something great about busy town. Yes. Everyone's everyone so I thought I thought that was that was very great. Oh, the the other thing is the that Gemini identified is like and then they did an April fool's joke with rating the minig bar. I'm like, what?
• 1:13:21
  Adam Leventhal: No. Okay. That episode was in March, first of all.
• 1:13:25
  Bryan Cantrill: Seconds. Right. I think it was actually it was in March. You're right. It was recorded in March.
• 1:13:30
  It was released on April 1. So I think Oh,
• 1:13:31
  Adam Leventhal: was it? Oh, okay. Yeah. Yeah. Just took me a while to edit.
• 1:13:34
  Alright. Well, jokes
• 1:13:34
  Bryan Cantrill: are good. Exactly. But it's also, like, not it's like, it's a great episode, but it's not there's nothing deadly serious that episode. So there's no April fools day about that one.
• 1:13:45
  Adam Leventhal: There's no laughing matter. No.
• 1:13:48
  Bryan Cantrill: And then I also it should be oh, we also had our first, what do you call a podcast that is about an entity that is unnamed? Do you know what I mean? Like, it's a subtweet, but it's a podcast.
• 1:14:02
  Adam Leventhal: That's funny. You know, as as I was categorizing the episodes, I was I was also reflecting on this subtweet of an episode that was very important to you.
• 1:14:14
  Bryan Cantrill: It is very important. So this is transparency in hardware software interfaces.
• 1:14:17
  Adam Leventhal: Yes. Yes.
• 1:14:18
  Bryan Cantrill: Which is on the one hand about every hardware vendor, and on the other and the other in another more specific way about exactly one. Yes. And and, know, dear, you know, dear listeners, if you if you think, you know, if you think it's you, you're probably right. So
• 1:14:34
  Adam Leventhal: And have you written an RFD on that subject as well? Am I remembering this correctly? Okay.
• 1:14:38
  Bryan Cantrill: Yeah. I've written an RFD
• 1:14:39
  Adam Leventhal: on it. So you had the the long form subtweet and then the
• 1:14:43
  Bryan Cantrill: And then the audio subtweet.
• 1:14:44
  Adam Leventhal: Yeah. Exactly.
• 1:14:46
  Bryan Cantrill: And I'm not sure what we call that. I mean, is there another there's gonna be another name for, like, a a kind of a cultural subtweet.
• 1:14:54
  Adam Leventhal: That's right. Like, it would be like Twitter cannot have invented the subtweet. Sure.
• 1:14:59
  Bryan Cantrill: That's a good question. Like, yeah, you feel
• 1:15:01
  Adam Leventhal: like Alexander Hamilton, like, subtweeted fucking everybody?
• 1:15:04
  Bryan Cantrill: Yes. I do. That our our first blogger too, feel on that guy. That guy, he invented so much, Alexander Hamilton. You know, I remember reading I think I was with you when I was reading Cherno's Hamilton before the musical.
• 1:15:18
  Could you do you remember why I was doing this?
• 1:15:23
  Adam Leventhal: It have to do with, like, eliminating the $10 bill. I mean, the the, like, removing Hamilton from the $10 bill.
• 1:15:28
  Bryan Cantrill: That's an excellent guess. No. That happened afterwards. No. Was because I we were contemplating naming Alexander Alexander, and I just wanted to do, like, a quick so I read a bio of Alexander Hamilton.
• 1:15:42
  Adam Leventhal: Let me do a quick 700 page read to make sure there's
• 1:15:44
  Bryan Cantrill: nothing in fairness. Just like, I mean, you're not gonna name a kid Adolf. You wanna just like make sure let me just like I I wanna go in eyes open. You know what I'm saying? Like it feels like you know, I'm saying this all out.
• 1:15:57
  It's pretty peculiar. I love it. I like imagine you slamming
• 1:16:02
  Adam Leventhal: the book shut and saying Bridget, we're going with it, you know.
• 1:16:05
  Bryan Cantrill: We're coming with it off. Let me tell you. I read about the Whiskey Rebellion, and I don't know. This Adolf character just can't be as bad as this guy's.
• 1:16:13
  Adam Leventhal: No. This this affair that he had, I just can't I just think we're back to our our place.
• 1:16:19
  Bryan Cantrill: I just think we're we can't god. I know the well so okay. The appearance is great, but I I also do love the I mean, you know, what he because what he said about Aaron Burr is still kind of like not known, but people kinda like historians basically think like he had it coming. Like what he said was really like he knew what he said and it was really bad. I think that they they they believe that you know, Aaron Burr lived with his daughter Theodoge.
• 1:16:46
  Yes. Yes. And Alexander Hamilton was I think pretty explicit about his idea that that that they may have been that there there may be something untoward in their relationship. Yeah. Which it's like, hey, you got a hand to that guy, know.
• 1:16:59
  You know, real taser tongue. But no, so I that's why I was reading Alexander. No. And I came then I also read a bio on Alexander the Great. Alexander of Mastodon.
• 1:17:10
  Of I I thought it just said Alexander of Mastodon, which is why I had Right. Which was right. It's gotta be now we
• 1:17:17
  Adam Leventhal: gotta check if that guy's been cancer.
• 1:17:19
  Bryan Cantrill: Yes. Right. Exactly. That that's Alexander the upset. That's that's a that's a different okay, Mastodon, settle down.
• 1:17:26
  I know Mastodon gets super upset when we say that they're upset. So the You're fine and
• 1:17:32
  Adam Leventhal: you have a great sense of humor.
• 1:17:33
  Bryan Cantrill: Yeah. You've got a great sense of humor. I do. Okay. On my LLM piece, mass this was kind of only on Mastodon.
• 1:17:41
  One of the things that the RFT opens with LLMs have been in this it have been indisputably one of the breakthroughs of the last five years. And people are like, that's not true. Like, you can come on. You cannot say an LLWeb is not a breakthrough.
• 1:17:54
  Adam Leventhal: It's a breakthrough. In Mastodon, people are saying
• 1:17:57
  Bryan Cantrill: Mhmm. Not a breakthrough.
• 1:17:58
  Adam Leventhal: In in in the flavor of this actually, is it that it happened?
• 1:18:03
  Bryan Cantrill: In our chat as well. People are like, alright. You want people to say it? I'll say it right now. It's not a breakthrough.
• 1:18:07
  Okay. Well, I'm gonna say the I I'm gonna say it is a breakthrough. It is you can disagree with everything about it, but it is a breakthrough.
• 1:18:12
  Adam Leventhal: Was it was it that it happened not within the last five years, or was it that it was not a breakthrough at all?
• 1:18:19
  Bryan Cantrill: Not a breakthrough. Not a breakthrough at all. Mike, yeah, I you just can't I mean, come on. You it's a breakthrough. You can disagree with everything about it, but it's a it's breakthrough.
• 1:18:28
  But the and Alexander the great was also you know super interesting. I'm not sure you know we should really be naming children after Alexander the greater Alexander Alexander of not Macedon of Macedon. But the doc you know he died incredible at an incredible young age like in his early thirties of cholera. Isn't it amazing?
• 1:18:49
  Adam Leventhal: Anyway. It is amazing.
• 1:18:52
  Bryan Cantrill: I I I would name the kid Alexander. So there you go. You know, it all. Anyway, I'm not sure. Fuck exactly.
• 1:19:01
  Not really sure what what the outcome was, but and and highly recommend Cherno. You read Cherno's biography. Yes. Yes. Very, very good.
• 1:19:11
  And he I feel yeah.
• 1:19:12
  Adam Leventhal: And I I remember you were going to see Hamilton, and I think I told you, like, the the the musical. And I think I told you, be prepared for the greatest thing you've ever seen in your entire life, and I'm in no danger of overselling.
• 1:19:24
  Bryan Cantrill: Yeah. You did not oversell. It was amazing. You did not oversell. It really was outstanding.
• 1:19:28
  It was was very good. No. I'm the and Cherno's biography is so good. The one of the things I remember from Cherno's biography is reading about something like the Whiskey Rebellion, which I I absolutely agree with the way Hamilton handled the Whiskey Rebellion by the way. But reading about something like that where he dedicated kind of three pages to it and thinking to myself, this person Alexander Hamilton is so fascinating I should read a biography of him.
• 1:19:53
  And my other part of my brain is like, Jackass you are reading about this is like a you know, whatever it is, a 900 page biography of him. Like, this is not but that's how how kind of fascinating his life is. Yeah. So Yeah. You know, come for the year wrap up.
• 1:20:06
  Stay for the free book in the box, I guess. Oh, also a half century Silicon Valley with with with the Randy shop. That was great.
• 1:20:14
  Adam Leventhal: That was fun. That and that that inspired me to read a book about Xerox, Fumbling the Future.
• 1:20:21
  Bryan Cantrill: Fumbling the Future. Yeah.
• 1:20:23
  Adam Leventhal: Which I know is like dumped on your desk or whatever.
• 1:20:25
  Bryan Cantrill: No. And I I need to read that because that that is really and I thought that that aside from the fact that that had a built in image for you. So Yeah. That part is Perfect. Right.
• 1:20:37
  That I thought that was that was an amazing conversation.
• 1:20:40
  Adam Leventhal: Really fun. And actually, you know, when I when we went down to the computer history museum more recently, I was thinking about that episode because I think it put a lot of that stuff in context for me, like a lot of the Xerox PARC work and just like the the stuff that of that era.
• 1:20:55
  Bryan Cantrill: So you know what I liked about that episode? And I may be the only one that but I think an important point that we made in that episode is that this was this kind of extraordinary time we're talking about how lucky Randy's dad was and then also reflecting on the fact that that time like more broadly was kind of a terrible time like 1970. 1973 was was bad in a lot of ways. And I just think it was a good reminder that like, that that you can find there's a golden age happening right now somewhere. And probably many golden ages happening.
• 1:21:30
  Adam Leventhal: Yeah. So if you happen to be listening to this at a shitty time.
• 1:21:34
  Bryan Cantrill: Yeah. Exactly. No. I'm serious. That, like, that you could that you you that you should not be overwhelmed with the despair and and find the find the interesting bits because there are interesting bits that are out there.
• 1:21:45
  I thought that was Sure. That was really good. Alright. I think it would
• 1:21:49
  Adam Leventhal: be I think it would be remiss if we didn't talk about the big oxide milestones of which raising a $100,000,000 this year was pretty big deal.
• 1:21:57
  Bryan Cantrill: That's pretty big. That the the LMs are definitely big on that one. They they they feel that one is an extremely important episode. I I mean, I obviously enjoyed getting that out there. We got the the bingo card out there.
• 1:22:07
  That was that was a lot of fun.
• 1:22:09
  Adam Leventhal: Yeah. It's fun. I, you know, I I like these ones where I get to to pluck comments from social media and read them at you and Steve. I think that's
• 1:22:16
  Bryan Cantrill: that's a big read. Yeah. Which is this what what do you call this this Passover tradition? Right? Because it's Passover.
• 1:22:23
  Adam Leventhal: Right? Yeah. That's right. That's right.
• 1:22:25
  Bryan Cantrill: With the wise child. Yes.
• 1:22:28
  Adam Leventhal: Yes.
• 1:22:28
  Bryan Cantrill: The four children.
• 1:22:29
  Adam Leventhal: Yes. What do
• 1:22:30
  Bryan Cantrill: you call that? Is there what's the name for that?
• 1:22:32
  Adam Leventhal: I think it's just like the four children. Like the
• 1:22:34
  Bryan Cantrill: It's a really great and insightful and kinda wise tradition. I really like it.
• 1:22:39
  Adam Leventhal: Yeah. The wise, wicked, simple, and the child who doesn't know how to ask.
• 1:22:43
  Bryan Cantrill: Right. Yeah. And but I thought no. I I and I'm like reading hacker news comments in those different again, I I think we talked about this. Like, we should have a tag on hacker news where you can like tag it wicked, simple, wise, doesn't know how to ask.
• 1:22:58
  Adam Leventhal: Right.
• 1:22:59
  Bryan Cantrill: And I think it'd be, you know, the world would better
• 1:23:01
  Adam Leventhal: It is like respond in kind too. Right? Like, because because sometimes you get, like, what seems like a rude question, but it's actually a simple question. And it's an opportunity to, like, respond in a simple way as opposed to a wicked question where you can respond in a more testy way.
• 1:23:17
  Bryan Cantrill: Yes. This is where we have this is like, you know, where Dave has very short responses on Hacker News and you know that it's like, what Dave spent a lot of time on that response. Yeah. I I I am and I think it was the Future Lock RFD that made Attacker News and with some comments that were less than productive. I thought Dave did an excellent job as always.
• 1:23:39
  Yeah. And I I also think we had Dave Dave was a frequent guest this year. And I mean, know, Rayne was a frequent guest, Eliza, we had a bunch of folks that were frequent guests, but Yeah.
• 1:23:47
  Adam Leventhal: You know, someone on social media on on that episode about FutureLock had, you know, in the in in replies said, you know, but before listening to the episode or maybe as we teased the episode, talked about future lock as, like, really just you know, sometimes you're a bad programmer and you make bugs, and, know, you it doesn't mean it's somebody else's fault or or whatever. And then after listening to the episode, I think it softened that position and, you know, had some contrition on the things they had said previously. So, you know, one person at a time on social media. What can you do? One person at
• 1:24:21
  Bryan Cantrill: a time. You know, what else can you do? I think that's pretty great. That's what you know, we're we're just doing our part here. Yeah.
• 1:24:25
  Very and then I think very, very grateful for listeners. I'm sure you I mean, I I I feel I get a lot of positive feedback about the podcast and it's really terrific. Really appreciate people people calling it out and you know, I I I got spotted in the airport a couple of times this year wearing an oxide shirt. People calling out oxide and friends references. I thought it was pretty great.
• 1:24:50
  Adam Leventhal: So That's awesome. In kind of more small town news, I've sometimes parents at my son's school have said, oh, are you do you are do you are you that Adam? So that that's been fun too, you know, just in the local community finding like minded tech nerds. That's great.
• 1:25:09
  Bryan Cantrill: Yeah. Yeah. That that it's been so that that was that was really nice, I thought. I thought but we had sounds like that was happening to you a decent amount this year too. Yeah.
• 1:25:16
  Adam Leventhal: Yeah. No. It's great. Very, very grateful that, like, folks are tuning in, recommending it to folks, and and tolerating us for all our foibles.
• 1:25:25
  Bryan Cantrill: I do feel that I want a like a chime that I can carry in my pocket that I can ring when in conversation I make a reference to a podcast episode.
• 1:25:33
  Adam Leventhal: Yeah. You do it I a
• 1:25:36
  Bryan Cantrill: do it a lot. I do it a lot and maybe I do it a maybe maybe that's like, yes. I'm glad you in fact, we're thinking he should be a shock collar, not a chime. So we actually been in the chat that includes everyone except for you. We've been taught we've got a lot of ideas that you're
• 1:25:51
  Adam Leventhal: You work for a fun example. Yeah. Exactly. Exactly.
• 1:25:54
  Bryan Cantrill: You know, got got a bunch of good ideas on that one. But well, good stuff. It's been a great year. I've really enjoyed it. Again, thanks for all the listeners.
• 1:26:03
  All of our guests have been terrific. Really enjoyed folks being willing to join us and looking forward to another great year, honestly. Yeah. And this will for the year for us. So this is this idea to 2025.
• 1:26:18
  We're out for the next two weeks. And then we will be back with a predictions episode. Yeah. So which all of the LLMs did rightly call out as a as a as an annual favorite. So this is gonna be it'll be a good one.
• 1:26:36
  I think this is gonna be a hot year. It'd be a good year to go back to where we can go do some checkups on some three year predictions. We've got some six year predictions that don't have very long to run at this point.
• 1:26:48
  Adam Leventhal: Yeah. It should be fun.
• 1:26:49
  Bryan Cantrill: Yeah. So be thinking about those. I hope everyone has a great holiday And thank you again very much for all of your support of the podcast and of Oxide. We really deeply appreciate it. Alright.
• 1:27:05
  And thank you, Adam. I'd be remiss not to thank you. Thank you.
• 1:27:08
  Adam Leventhal: Thank you, Brian. Thanks for thanks for doing this.
• 1:27:10
  Bryan Cantrill: This is always fun. I know it's great. This is I I I really enjoy it. I do really, really, really enjoy it. So thank you very much for Yeah.
• 1:27:16
  For everything you do. I love that question. Pledge to get better audio and Morris Chang. Sure. Now I'm gonna start to play.
• 1:27:24
  You know I'm gonna I'm gonna get to Morris Chang. I like what you're doing with with Evan. I'm gonna try to get to Morris Chang. I bet a guy plays pickleball. I'm gonna go play some pickleball and
• 1:27:34
  Adam Leventhal: If he plays pickleball, I'll do that one too.
• 1:27:37
  Bryan Cantrill: Oh, you're gonna pick him
• 1:27:38
  Adam Leventhal: and then he I need to go to Taiwan to play pickleball like that.
• 1:27:41
  Bryan Cantrill: I I've always used that. Okay. There you go. Take one for the team. That's what it is.
• 1:27:46
  Alright. Thanks everyone and see you in 2026.