Latest / The Parenting Podcast / Whole Brain Child #5 Upstairs/Downstairs Tantrums – Which is it and what to do? | Ep. 86

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Whole Brain Child #5 Upstairs/Downstairs Tantrums – Which is it and what to do? | Ep. 86 · The Parenting Podcast

• 0:06
  Okay.
• 0:06
  Quite honestly, as a parent, have you ever felt a little bit like maybe you've been taken captive and you're in hostage negotiations with a terrorist and you're just dealing with your two year old or your 13 year old in your own home?
• 0:29
  While I'm telling you, I have.
• 0:32
  I'm Cheryl Ang, and welcome to the Parenting Podcast.
• 0:38
  But, instead of hostage negotiations, our recording team today is discussing Upstairs and Downstairs Tantrums from the excellent book, The Whole Brain Child.
• 0:50
  Listen in as Christy talks about how she used some of the techniques we've been talking about, not with her children, but with her husband and a new laminate floor.
• 1:03
  And oh, by the way, She earned an A
• 1:16
  Cheryl: Well, you know, we've been talking about left brain and right brain and horizontal and vertical.
• 1:23
  Cheryl: And I've just had a couple of, um, listeners say, uh, could you go back again and revisit a little bit and explain it?
• 1:33
  Cheryl: Yeah.
• 1:33
  Cheryl: You know, it's a lot.
• 1:35
  Cheryl: Yeah, it is.
• 1:36
  Cheryl: And you can kind of go, wait, am I, is this left brain or is this upstairs or, am I upside down?
• 1:42
  Christie: Always a possibility.
• 1:44
  Christie: For me, not you.
• 1:45
  Cheryl: Particularly because today we're going to talk about how to apply the upstairs and the downstairs.
• 1:51
  Cheryl: And so what this is, it's not someone's natural way of being that they're a more logical person or a more emotional person, right?
• 1:59
  Cheryl: It's how we.
• 2:00
  Cheryl: actually use our brains.
• 2:01
  Cheryl: And the reason he says upstairs and downstairs is because physically, it's moving from the bottom of our brain to the top.
• 2:09
  Cheryl: and if we've talked about the bottom part is what we even are doing when we're very young, it may be even in utero and a young age.
• 2:18
  Cheryl: And then we always use it.
• 2:21
  Cheryl: But it's a reactive place,
• 2:24
  Christie: the impulsive,
• 2:25
  Cheryl: the impulsive, the reactive, the emotional, I mean, that's where we get triggered out of, but It's just the reactive part of our brains.
• 2:33
  Cheryl: Well,
• 2:33
  Ellen: it's the part that lets us run away from
• 2:35
  Cheryl: danger.
• 2:35
  Cheryl: Yeah, that's exactly right.
• 2:37
  Cheryl: It's all of that and it's just not as well developed as what we want with our Upper, upstairs, which is the prefrontal cortex.
• 2:46
  Cheryl: And so, when we have an emotional trigger, um, and we get upset.
• 2:52
  Cheryl: We call it an amygdala hijack.
• 2:55
  Cheryl: Or a freak out.
• 2:56
  Cheryl: Oh, you're really freaked out of that.
• 2:58
  Cheryl: Meltdown.
• 2:58
  Cheryl: I guarantee you when people freak out, it's, it's an amygdala hijack.
• 3:03
  Cheryl: Yeah, right.
• 3:03
  Cheryl: Their amygdala has fired up.
• 3:06
  Cheryl: We've been taking captive downstairs and that kind of activity, we say, it's put a baby gate, if you will, on the steps because we want to get up to the prefrontal cortex where we're reasoning,
• 3:19
  Christie: Yes,
• 3:20
  Cheryl: making good decisions, judging things right, which we can tell that's maturity.
• 3:26
  Cheryl: And so that's what we're talking about.
• 3:28
  Cheryl: That's what upstairs and downstairs is rather than Um, personal preference.
• 3:35
  Cheryl: It's all of us.
• 3:36
  Cheryl: We want to use our downstairs and then get upstairs and use it.
• 3:42
  Christie: Well, and especially in our children, it's all a maturity issue.
• 3:45
  Christie: Like, as adults, we might get trapped downstairs, but children and adolescents, they don't really even have...
• 3:52
  Christie: Access, or even when they get up there, it's an unfinished attic.
• 3:55
  Christie: It's not even developed yet.
• 3:57
  Christie: So that's, we're working with raw materials with our kids, trying to get them some access to the upstairs.
• 4:03
  Christie: Where adults, we just have to remind them it's there.
• 4:06
  Cheryl: And there are ways to develop.
• 4:07
  Cheryl: The upstairs, which is what we wanna do.
• 4:09
  Cheryl: Mm-hmm.
• 4:10
  Cheryl: we wanna develop that and then help them know how to take down that baby gate.
• 4:14
  Cheryl: Right.
• 4:14
  Ellen: Right.
• 4:14
  Ellen: And that's one of the best gifts we can give our children, is the tools to know how to get from the basement upstairs.
• 4:22
  Christie: Mm-hmm.
• 4:22
  Christie: excellent.
• 4:23
  Christie: And build some confidence in them.
• 4:25
  Christie: Right on when they get up there, the, the logic and reasoning and yeah, give them the tools and the confidence to use
• 4:31
  Cheryl: them mm-hmm.
• 4:32
  Christie: Okay.
• 4:33
  Christie: Yes.
• 4:33
  Christie: So I had a real life experience in the wild, TPE podcast or in the wild, but not in parenting.
• 4:41
  Christie: It was actually with my husband.
• 4:42
  Christie: Oh.
• 4:42
  Christie: Okay.
• 4:43
  Christie: But we are installing wood laminate floors in our bedroom because we had this big massive flood and that's another episode.
• 4:51
  Christie: But so Tim's been replacing the wood flooring.
• 4:55
  Christie: Well, if you've ever installed wood flooring, it's quite the process.
• 4:59
  Christie: So he is doing the work.
• 5:01
  Christie: I keep saying we are, but it's really him doing the work and I just stand there and yeah, run and get it, you know, drill or whatever he needs next.
• 5:10
  Christie: So this week he started in on a new bedroom and getting started is really like the first couple of rows is really the hardest Part of the process so he's you know Really fighting with these boards on the first couple of rows trying to get them to lock in right and you know You're setting your foundation It's been a process four bedrooms and a hallway we're so yeah, and so, you know, he's just Had probably maybe two hours of battling these boards and you get one right and the other one's wrong and all of that And he gets past this part and then it's going smoothly, which is refreshing and exciting I'm like, okay, we are really making some progress now and then he runs into a board that that's just acting up a little bit And he starts panicking kind of back to the frustration level that he was at the beginning And I was like, why is he, I can kind of see the problem.
• 6:07
  Christie: You know, I'm watching just sitting in my chair in the corner, drinking my water.
• 6:10
  Christie: And I'm like, why is he so upset?
• 6:13
  Christie: And.
• 6:14
  Christie: I said, Ben, what's, what's going on?
• 6:16
  Christie: He's like, well, this, that, blah, blah, blah.
• 6:19
  Christie: And I was like, well, do you think it's, it's this situation here?
• 6:24
  Christie: And he just stops and he looks at it and he's like, oh, yeah.
• 6:27
  Christie: It was a very simple solution to the problem.
• 6:31
  Christie: But he was still triggered from the getting started part that he thought, Oh, here we go again, you know, I'm having another problem, but me being relaxed and calm and not being fully involved in the process, just thinking, you know, watching him is a leisure time.
• 6:47
  Christie: I could see objectively.
• 6:48
  Christie: So it really was this connect and redirect.
• 6:51
  Christie: I was able to see that he was frustrated, see why he was frustrated because he had such fresh memory of the time before he was still amped up from that.
• 7:00
  Christie: And it was just really refreshing rather than You know, if I didn't have some of this inside, I would have been like, well, what's wrong?
• 7:07
  Christie: You know, I probably would have panicked with him.
• 7:08
  Christie: And then I would have been like, well, it's just not that Just get over it, you know, fix it.
• 7:13
  Christie: And wow.
• 7:14
  Christie: Yeah.
• 7:15
  Cheryl: A plus.
• 7:17
  Cheryl: Christie There's several things that saw number one way to go.
• 7:21
  Cheryl: You didn't go, would you just grow up and put the, you know, why are you acting like that?
• 7:25
  Cheryl: Okay.
• 7:26
  Cheryl: But you connected with him emotionally, and then he was ready to go up and go think about it logically, instead of it, either both of you getting trapped in the basement, or you're throwing boards from him
• 7:44
  Christie: on join me up and I think the key there was, I was removed from the situation.
• 7:49
  Christie: I was not emotionally wrapped up in the situation.
• 7:53
  Christie: So I wonder what
• 7:54
  Cheryl: that tells us as parents.
• 7:56
  Cheryl: Should we take it personally?
• 7:59
  Cheryl: Well, isn't
• 7:59
  Ellen: that the hardest thing?
• 8:01
  Ellen: Not to join them in their emotions, whether it's their temper tantrum or The anger that they're feeling towards something and just get so involved in it that we're no
• 8:12
  Christie: longer objective, right?
• 8:14
  Christie: And it's so hard to do.
• 8:15
  Christie: I mean, they've lost the toy, so they're upset.
• 8:17
  Christie: Well, we've got to find it before we can leave.
• 8:19
  Christie: Now I'm going to be late for my appointment.
• 8:20
  Christie: You know, just get all wrapped up in everyone's emotions.
• 8:23
  Christie: And
• 8:24
  Cheryl: either we're trapped downstairs with the baby gate up Or we're upstairs looking at them, like I said, throwing boards going, join me up here! Yeah.
• 8:34
  Christie: I just thought what a example of what we're
• 8:36
  Cheryl: talking about.
• 8:37
  Cheryl: You know, that's why I love what we're dealing with in this series, from the book, So practical.
• 8:43
  Cheryl: This is exactly what we want to do.
• 8:45
  Cheryl: How watching and realize, oh yeah, he's stuck in his emotions.
• 8:50
  Cheryl: Mm-hmm.
• 8:50
  Cheryl: and you're thinking logically.
• 8:52
  Cheryl: Mm-hmm.
• 8:52
  Cheryl: and the wise way to love someone does not go, can't you just think logically like me, But to realize, engage and I love it.
• 9:00
  Christie: That's exactly
• 9:01
  Cheryl: right,
• 9:02
  Ellen: And it can help when you have someone who knows you well enough that, you know, when you're triggered, you can help them get up the stairs.
• 9:07
  Ellen: Right.
• 9:08
  Ellen: Yes.
• 9:08
  Ellen: You know, because sometimes we just
• 9:09
  Christie: need that.
• 9:09
  Christie: Or if we can be self aware enough to know, okay, I'm just in my downstairs brain right now, taking a breath, let me think about this reasonably.
• 9:16
  Christie: Yes.
• 9:17
  Cheryl: Yes.
• 9:17
  Cheryl: Yes.
• 9:18
  Cheryl: So actually looking at all of this and thinking about it and trying to use it, I think connect and redirect really is how we should be living with everybody all the time.
• 9:30
  Cheryl: Yeah.
• 9:30
  Christie: Yeah.
• 9:30
  Cheryl: Not that we're parenting everybody, but to love them well.
• 9:35
  Cheryl: Um, to understand their emotional response.
• 9:38
  Cheryl: It's respectful.
• 9:38
  Cheryl: It's very respectful.
• 9:39
  Cheryl: You
• 9:40
  Ellen: know, because you're respecting that they're frustrated right now, or they're struggling.
• 9:45
  Ellen: Yes.
• 9:45
  Ellen: And you respect and understand that, and you kind of enter into it with them.
• 9:49
  Ellen: Yes.
• 9:50
  Ellen: To help them see the way up
• 9:51
  Christie: the stairs.
• 9:52
  Christie: Right.
• 9:52
  Christie: Empathy.
• 9:53
  Christie: Yes.
• 9:54
  Christie: And if we remember that it...
• 9:56
  Christie: Like you said, we're not teaching everyone because we're experts on everything, but it's mutual.
• 10:00
  Christie: We need that from the other person sometimes, too.
• 10:03
  Christie: Yeah,
• 10:03
  Cheryl: instead of my reacting when you go, Cheryl, you're in your downstairs brain.
• 10:07
  Cheryl: Yeah, you know, that would be very reactive.
• 10:10
  Cheryl: Those are frightening words.
• 10:13
  Cheryl: I know what a difference it makes to me when someone I love or care about engages with me when I'm struggling emotionally, and connects.
• 10:23
  Cheryl: Before they kind of maybe redirect me a little way up the
• 10:28
  Christie: stairs again.
• 10:28
  Christie: Right.
• 10:29
  Christie: Well, and that's the beauty of this is it's helping us to treat our children as people.
• 10:35
  Christie: Yeah.
• 10:35
  Christie: Yes.
• 10:36
  Christie: And, you know, treating them with dignity and respect as human beings rather than talking down to them
• 10:41
  Cheryl: Right.
• 10:41
  Cheryl: Right.
• 10:42
  Christie: Oh, that's good..
• 10:43
  Cheryl: Okay.
• 10:44
  Cheryl: So I love this portion of the book because what he does instead of just give fact, fact, fact, he gives a really concrete example of showing how you deal with someone.
• 10:56
  Cheryl: who's in the downstairs, and how you deal with someone in the upstairs.
• 11:00
  Cheryl: And so he does it with tantrums, because we all hate tantrums, whatever age, you know.
• 11:05
  Cheryl: I mean, we were talking earlier that we throw tantrums, too.
• 11:08
  Cheryl: Um, so whatever age, and he describes an upstairs tantrum and a downstairs tantrum, and then he applies how to use it.
• 11:16
  Cheryl: So the problem is, You have to recognize, is this downstairs, or is this upstairs?
• 11:24
  Cheryl: Um, talking about a downstairs tantrum, what would you say how we recognize if it's a downstairs tantrum?
• 11:32
  Cheryl: What does look like for little ones and for big ones?
• 11:34
  Cheryl: Well, and
• 11:34
  Christie: I think the downstairs for the younger ones usually comes from being hungry, tired or sick, you know, teething or not having the words to communicate.
• 11:44
  Christie: Oh, that's good.
• 11:45
  Cheryl: yes.
• 11:45
  Cheryl: Yeah.
• 11:45
  Cheryl: I think for little ones
• 11:46
  Ellen: it's pretty easy.
• 11:48
  Ellen: It usually is screaming, yelling, physical, holding breath, pouting.
• 11:53
  Cheryl: Well, usually
• 11:54
  Ellen: it's a lot of emotions, feeling out of control, whether you're having it or your child's having it, you know, and it's not even logical.
• 12:03
  Ellen: It's just kind of messy.
• 12:05
  Cheryl: I mean When their emotions have overwhelmed them.
• 12:07
  Cheryl: Right.
• 12:07
  Cheryl: Right.
• 12:08
  Cheryl: And that's where the discernment comes in because, see, that could be, I'm going to hold my breath until you do what I want you to do.
• 12:13
  Cheryl: Right.
• 12:14
  Cheryl: And by the way That's an upstairs tantrum Right.
• 12:17
  Cheryl: And there's not a quick fix.
• 12:19
  Cheryl: No.
• 12:19
  Cheryl: Right.
• 12:20
  Christie: Like the ears just shut down.
• 12:22
  Christie: They cannot hear anything you're saying to them at all.
• 12:25
  Cheryl: And it can be at any age.
• 12:27
  Cheryl: I mean, you talked about Tim.
• 12:28
  Cheryl: Yeah.
• 12:29
  Cheryl: He's a mature grown man.
• 12:30
  Cheryl: Right.
• 12:31
  Cheryl: But he was trapped with his emotions.
• 12:33
  Cheryl: Yeah.
• 12:33
  Cheryl: And he wasn't throwing a tantrum.
• 12:34
  Cheryl: No.
• 12:35
  Cheryl: Yeah.
• 12:35
  Cheryl: Okay, so then how do we walk through that when you recognize this is a downstairs tantrum, whether they're two.
• 12:43
  Cheryl: or 20, they're not doing it intellectually.
• 12:46
  Cheryl: That's an upstairs tantrum You know, they're so flooded with their emotions.
• 12:51
  Cheryl: Right.
• 12:51
  Cheryl: Mm-hmm.
• 12:52
  Cheryl: and those emotions have put a baby gate up.
• 12:55
  Cheryl: So talking to them logically, yeah.
• 12:58
  Cheryl: It's not gonna work.
• 12:59
  Cheryl: They really are out of control and their emotions have them hijack.
• 13:03
  Cheryl: Yeah, right.
• 13:03
  Cheryl: mm-hmm.
• 13:04
  Cheryl: Mm-hmm.
• 13:04
  Cheryl: How do we walk with them?
• 13:05
  Christie: I think this one just takes a little bit of time at first.
• 13:08
  Christie: That's true.
• 13:08
  Christie: You have to be patient.
• 13:09
  Christie: Breathe with them.
• 13:11
  Christie: I had one of my kids that I would literally just hold and breathe the breathing pattern.
• 13:15
  Christie: I wanted her to breathe with me, and when she was pressed up against my chest, she could feel me breathing and then she would finally start catching a breath.
• 13:23
  Christie: Yeah.
• 13:23
  Christie: But she couldn't hear any reason or logic, so just sitting, waiting.
• 13:29
  Christie: Yeah.
• 13:29
  Christie: Holding them, keeping them safe if they're
• 13:31
  Cheryl: physical.
• 13:32
  Ellen: Right?
• 13:33
  Ellen: Well, I know I really struggled with the downstairs tantrums because it was kind of interfering with the day and it's not easily solved and it's messy.
• 13:43
  Ellen: Emotionally because you've got to enter into their wilderness of whatever's going on and so a lot of times I would just go, Oh, you're fine.
• 13:52
  Ellen: Let's go.
• 13:53
  Ellen: Let's move on.
• 13:53
  Ellen: And that's okay.
• 13:54
  Ellen: Occasionally, right?
• 13:55
  Ellen: Because you can't I guess I want to communicate also that we're not saying every single issue that your child has, you have to go through these steps and try to fix it.
• 14:06
  Ellen: Because if you give them the tools, they can eventually work through because you know, if you have a big family or even if you just have one child, you have other things to do during the day and you can't stop every moment and go step by step.
• 14:18
  Ellen: So maybe just kind of learning your child and what the important things are that really bother or trigger them and work there.
• 14:26
  Ellen: And then.
• 14:27
  Ellen: Make an effort to say, and when you get upset, this is what you do.
• 14:30
  Ellen: Because, you know, you were saying, you know, a child's having a temper tantrum, sometimes if they want to be held, you hold them.
• 14:37
  Ellen: So they recognize that they need something.
• 14:40
  Ellen: And how do I get comfort in my need?
• 14:42
  Ellen: Very
• 14:42
  Cheryl: good.
• 14:43
  Cheryl: Very good.
• 14:44
  Cheryl: And it's the connecting with them.
• 14:46
  Cheryl: Yes.
• 14:46
  Cheryl: Right.
• 14:46
  Cheryl: Before we redirect.
• 14:48
  Cheryl: Even if it's really short, because Ellen, I know what you're talking about.
• 14:51
  Cheryl: You can't deal with everything.
• 14:54
  Cheryl: Mm hmm.
• 14:54
  Cheryl: But at least a little bit where we have the compassion Yeah, because I okay, so we've talked about downstairs tantrums.
• 15:02
  Cheryl: How do you recognize an upstairs tantrum?
• 15:04
  Cheryl: Because I think this is a great tool because I think people throwing tantrums would like everybody to think that they're downstairs tantrum and that there's really a deep emotional basis and a need that needs to be taken care of.
• 15:20
  Cheryl: Right.
• 15:20
  Cheryl: It's a quiet form of
• 15:22
  Christie: manipulation.
• 15:22
  Christie: It is absolute manipulation.
• 15:24
  Christie: And it's sometimes not so quiet.
• 15:27
  Cheryl: And so this takes discernment to know are they legit, why he calls it an upstairs tantrum, is because they're using the prefrontal cortex.
• 15:36
  Cheryl: They're using their logic to try and manipulate to get what they want.
• 15:41
  Cheryl: And we've all seen it happen, um, it's real easy to see in someone else's children when the child can turn it on and turn it off immediately.
• 15:51
  Cheryl: Right.
• 15:52
  Cheryl: And that's how you know an upstairs.
• 15:53
  Cheryl: And you have to walk into it a little bit sometimes.
• 15:57
  Ellen: Right.
• 15:57
  Christie: Well, and I think usually an upstairs tantrum reveals itself once you've done all the downstairs techniques.
• 16:04
  Christie: Once you've connected and tried to redirect, and it just keeps going on, is when you start seeing the person is really using your words against you, turning everything around.
• 16:15
  Cheryl: And he said, you can tell it extinguishes so fast when they get what they want.
• 16:20
  Cheryl: Right, right.
• 16:21
  Cheryl: Right.
• 16:22
  Cheryl: because Is a deliberate...
• 16:24
  Cheryl: manipulative choice.
• 16:25
  Cheryl: Now the child's probably not saying, Oh, I think I'm going to manipulate my parents.
• 16:29
  Cheryl: They've just seen it works.
• 16:31
  Cheryl: And so they start using logic and reason uh, in order to manipulate them.
• 16:36
  Cheryl: Want.
• 16:37
  Cheryl: my way.
• 16:37
  Cheryl: And I'm thinking, and I look emotional.
• 16:40
  Cheryl: Right.
• 16:40
  Cheryl: But there's no hurt or need.
• 16:43
  Christie: Well, the upstairs tantrum.
• 16:44
  Christie: I think it's probably the times where you look at your three year old daughter and you're like, How is she so smart?
• 16:53
  Christie: Because they just start being able to use all the knowledge they've gained in three years against you and turn it against you.
• 17:00
  Christie: Yes.
• 17:01
  Christie: And reason with you and manipulate with their words and You know, not just at three, but at 13 and yeah,
• 17:08
  Cheryl: older.
• 17:09
  Cheryl: I mean, because the upstairs is a logical thought through all of that.
• 17:14
  Cheryl: Using their upstairs to know how to manipulate whatever the adults are yes,
• 17:20
  Ellen: it becomes the
• 17:21
  Christie: manipulation class.
• 17:22
  Christie: Yes, right.
• 17:23
  Christie: Like little attorneys running around.
• 17:25
  Christie: Exactly.
• 17:25
  Christie: Yeah.
• 17:26
  Cheryl: I remember our first teenager and we were going round and round and round talking about something.
• 17:34
  Cheryl: There was no high emotion to it.
• 17:36
  Cheryl: Bill said, Honey, come in here a minute.
• 17:39
  Cheryl: And I went in the other room and he said, Do you have...
• 17:41
  Cheryl: Any idea where this conversation started?
• 17:43
  Cheryl: No, and he said, you're being led around by the nose.
• 17:47
  Cheryl: And so, although it didn't look like a tantrum in an older person, it was a tantrum of words.
• 17:55
  Cheryl: And so she was just taking me from one thing to the next to the next, just leading me around.
• 18:01
  Cheryl: Like you would manipulate with emotions right And so she was having an upstairs tantrum
• 18:06
  Christie: right.
• 18:07
  Christie: I've seen at my house It's a it's like a survival Only see their end result as the goal and they are gonna do what?
• 18:15
  Christie: It往這個階段 DC information on
• 18:22
  Cheryl: What does it look like with younger children?
• 18:24
  Christie: Well, I, I think, I'm thinking of my younger girls when they were younger, and I think a lot of it was guilt.
• 18:29
  Christie: Like somehow they knew how to get all my guilt out of me.
• 18:31
  Christie: It's like, you said we were going to, and all the other, you know, kids are going to ice cream after, and you know, all the things just coming at you like darts, and they're a little, you know, unpolished and immature about things, or, you know, all of the.
• 18:45
  Christie: Can you read me just one more book?
• 18:47
  Christie: I just want to be with you.
• 18:49
  Cheryl: Oh, wow! Do you want your child to star?
• 18:54
  Cheryl: Oh, yes, yes.
• 18:57
  Cheryl: Could be, I'm going to hold my breath until you do what I want you to do.
• 19:00
  Cheryl: Right.
• 19:01
  Cheryl: you know, this is where you have to take the time to be aware.
• 19:05
  Cheryl: Mm.
• 19:05
  Christie: well, yeah, where?
• 19:06
  Christie: Because that those guilt attacks that my girls would give me.
• 19:10
  Christie: Sometimes I would start agreeing with them.
• 19:14
  Christie: You know, some of them are really good.
• 19:15
  Christie: And I'm like, Yeah, I've I've been thinking that about myself.
• 19:19
  Cheryl: And they walk you down like a good lawyer.
• 19:22
  Cheryl: Right?
• 19:22
  Cheryl: You know, If he were there, then this, then this.
• 19:26
  Cheryl: That's what I'm saying.
• 19:26
  Cheryl: You're right.
• 19:27
  Cheryl: I am the worst mother in the basement.
• 19:30
  Cheryl: And then you're trapped and you're downstairs.
• 19:33
  Cheryl: Yes,
• 19:33
  Christie: I'm the one
• 19:33
  Cheryl: behind the baby gate.
• 19:35
  Cheryl: So what about y'all?
• 19:36
  Cheryl: Look at your parenting.
• 19:38
  Cheryl: If you think about downstairs and upstairs, um, the problem is I confuse them, because what we were talking about a while ago, trying to process and talk about it.
• 19:55
  Cheryl: When they're using logic against me, and leading me around, and then if I didn't recognize it as an emotional downstairs, then I'm trying to bring logic
• 20:06
  Christie: in.
• 20:06
  Christie: Right, well, and I feel like it can shift sometimes.
• 20:09
  Christie: I've seen my girls when they're in an upstairs tantrum, and they are really just pressing in hard.
• 20:15
  Christie: And then they realize they're not winning, like they're not going to get what they want.
• 20:20
  Christie: They just lose it, you know, that downstairs where panic ensues.
• 20:25
  Christie: And, and the reality that I'm losing this is, is taking over.
• 20:29
  Christie: And so you have to be very in tune to the situation sometimes.
• 20:35
  Christie: I
• 20:35
  Cheryl: mean, that's
• 20:36
  Ellen: it.
• 20:36
  Ellen: Yeah.
• 20:37
  Ellen: And sometimes it's just is.
• 20:38
  Ellen: There's not anything you can do.
• 20:41
  Ellen: It's just part of growing up.
• 20:43
  Ellen: Right.
• 20:43
  Ellen: And that's part of becoming mature.
• 20:46
  Ellen: As you learn, I'm in the basement here.
• 20:48
  Ellen: I'm about ready to be triggered and have a temper tantrum, you know, and how do I control
• 20:53
  Christie: that?
• 20:53
  Christie: Well, and then our job is to The grown, mature adult is to not join them in the tantrum and be you know, the steady person there.
• 21:02
  Christie: And that's always my hard thing.
• 21:04
  Christie: I'm like, it's very easy for me to get sucked in to
• 21:07
  Cheryl: the tantrum.
• 21:07
  Cheryl: Me too right.
• 21:09
  Ellen: They're physically upset and having a tantrum and, you know, yelling and everything, But when they're having an upstairs tantrum, I think it's a little harder because they're pushing, pushing, pushing, driving hard to convince you, but it's exhausting
• 21:25
  Cheryl: right.
• 21:26
  Cheryl: And then I get triggered.
• 21:27
  Cheryl: Yeah.
• 21:28
  Cheryl: And then I put the baby Kate up and I can't help them.
• 21:32
  Cheryl: Yeah.
• 21:32
  Cheryl: I can't go up the steps with them, you know.
• 21:35
  Cheryl: Well,
• 21:35
  Christie: and I think one thing that really keeps me from handling these situations well is I, I don't want them to be uncomfortable.
• 21:44
  Christie: So I'm trying to come to a resolution, whether it be upstairs or downstairs, I'm trying to.
• 21:48
  Christie: Reason with them and and come to a solution that can make everyone happy and and sometimes it's just going to be a hard thing Yeah, you know sometimes you just have to stick firm to your no or let them You know miss out on whatever it is.
• 22:01
  Christie: And and that's the hard thing for you
• 22:04
  Cheryl: When a downstairs thing We have to wait for them to process the emotions and calm down.
• 22:13
  Cheryl: So, um, a couple of techniques that I have seen, he doesn't go into all of them here, but how to calm that amygdala down in the high emotion of whatever you're in Some breaths.
• 22:32
  Cheryl: It really works, and I don't know if we've mentioned it, but I've seen it with people who do it with their young children.
• 22:40
  Cheryl: Starting really young, let's take a deep breath.
• 22:44
  Cheryl: And, and they just work with them, And I've watched the transformation to see when their children start taking a couple of deep breaths, and then I know now, um, scientifically, those deep breaths actually change the composition of the brain.
• 23:01
  Cheryl: And so giving them the techniques,.
• 23:03
  Cheryl: We have to wait and discern when.
• 23:05
  Cheryl: redirect up the steps
• 23:07
  Ellen: Well, we also had a basketball court.
• 23:09
  Ellen: Yes.
• 23:09
  Ellen: And that was the other thing, because, you know, really from about seven on, you can send them, it was just out front.
• 23:15
  Ellen: You can't go anywhere, just play basketball.
• 23:17
  Ellen: Right.
• 23:17
  Ellen: You know, and that was enough to just get rid of that physical energy that comes when you're really upset.
• 23:23
  Ellen: And come back when you're ready to talk about
• 23:25
  Christie: it?
• 23:25
  Christie: Right.
• 23:25
  Christie: Well, and that's really good too.
• 23:27
  Christie: I think We have to first prepare our kids with the reason we're doing that because, you know, somebody might listen and think that sounds like you're rewarding the behavior if you're letting them go play basketball or this tantrum.
• 23:39
  Christie: But if they know this is a, I'm equipping you with a skill of Calming down so that we can come back.
• 23:46
  Christie: Yeah.
• 23:46
  Christie: And they're informed of that then, because I would say,
• 23:48
  Ellen: Mm-hmm.
• 23:48
  Ellen: you're upset.
• 23:49
  Ellen: You need to get rid of some energy.
• 23:50
  Ellen: Why don't you go play basketball for a few minutes.
• 23:52
  Ellen: Right.
• 23:52
  Ellen: And then come ba back or go for your walk and clear your head.
• 23:57
  Cheryl: I think in the bookends I've.
• 23:59
  Cheryl: Adolescents and preschool, in particular down to toddlers, that can take a long time.
• 24:06
  Cheryl: In fact, they say, Ellen, that teen boys can be up to nine hours before they can even recognize what emotion they were feeling.
• 24:17
  Cheryl: Wow.
• 24:17
  Cheryl: So there's a lot of processing that has to go on, and a lot of that process is time, you know, because this just does take a lot of time.
• 24:28
  Ellen: You can help them go, Are you feeling angry?
• 24:30
  Ellen: Are you feeling, you know, give them words.
• 24:32
  Ellen: Start giving
• 24:32
  Christie: them vocabulary.
• 24:34
  Cheryl: At either age, right.
• 24:35
  Cheryl: Yeah.
• 24:36
  Christie: Because the temptation in a situation like that is Hey, you need to pull it together.
• 24:41
  Christie: We're all going to the park or we're all doing this.
• 24:43
  Christie: You need to get your stuff together and go.
• 24:47
  Christie: That command and demand and move them on to the next thing or
• 24:50
  Ellen: you're grounded for a month, right, you
• 24:52
  Christie: know
• 24:55
  Ellen: No, you're only grounded for a day, right
• 24:58
  Cheryl: But I love what they keep saying in here.
• 25:01
  Cheryl: Our children are not to hold us hostage And that we can't do this with everything, right?
• 25:09
  Cheryl: How to handle it, but I think the basic things of us being under control Watching our emotion and if I'm triggered, if I'm stuck downstairs with my amygdala, I need to wait until I'm not.
• 25:25
  Cheryl: And then I can deal with it..
• 25:27
  Cheryl: I think
• 25:28
  Ellen: being aware within yourself.
• 25:30
  Ellen: Okay, I'm trying to get five kids in the car and get across town because we have an appointment at such and such.
• 25:36
  Ellen: We're already behind now.
• 25:38
  Ellen: So I'm already triggered, right?
• 25:39
  Ellen: So yeah, we have to also as adults sometimes think through the situation.
• 25:43
  Ellen: Okay, how much preparation if I have a choice?
• 25:46
  Ellen: Do I make so we don't trigger everybody,
• 25:48
  Christie: right?
• 25:49
  Christie: And very few things.
• 25:50
  Christie: Are that time sensitive, like you don't have to deal with it right now, other than life and death situations, which probably are command and demand situations
• 25:58
  Cheryl: that you or getting to work on time.
• 26:00
  Cheryl: Yes.
• 26:01
  Cheryl: Because if you're in the early morning, prime time, trying to get out of the house early in the morning.
• 26:07
  Cheryl: Maybe the parent has to work or not, but the kids have got to get to school, and there are big consequences.
• 26:12
  Cheryl: You know, so, what would y'all say?
• 26:15
  Ellen: Make some strategies.
• 26:16
  Ellen: Yes.
• 26:17
  Ellen: So that it's, we're not being terrorized in the morning by
• 26:20
  Christie: this list of tasks.
• 26:21
  Christie: Right.
• 26:21
  Christie: Well, especially a little bit older kids because they can handle six hours later.
• 26:25
  Christie: We talk about it after school.
• 26:26
  Christie: And then the littlest ones, you'll get another opportunity.
• 26:30
  Christie: Right.
• 26:30
  Christie: You know, just wait for the next one.
• 26:32
  Cheryl: and one thing that he mentioned that was really encouraging about upstairs tantrums and that manipulation, he said, if it quits working, they'll stop.
• 26:43
  Cheryl: Yes.
• 26:43
  Cheryl: Right.
• 26:43
  Cheryl: Because it's not a reaction.
• 26:47
  Cheryl: They're watching how to manipulate together.
• 26:49
  Cheryl: It's a trained behavior, exactly which is why some kids you can see it They manipulate their parents all the time and the others don't Because it works right well,
• 26:59
  Christie: we can be we can be validating and engaging without being INDULGENT YEAH, but we can also be firm without being cold.
• 27:07
  Christie: And, you know, my girls, I know a lot of times I will listen and say, I can see how frustrating this is to you, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.
• 27:15
  Christie: But my answer is no, we're not going.
• 27:17
  Christie: And, you know, then I just.
• 27:19
  Christie: Go off with this thing that I heard a long time ago.
• 27:22
  Christie: You asked and I answered Yeah.
• 27:24
  Christie: And that's the end of, and it's hard for me to, to stand firm on things like that, but cuz it feels cold sometimes.
• 27:31
  Christie: They need to know what it feels like to get no for an answer or to throw the tantrum and not be effective and that's all part of their maturing.
• 27:39
  Christie: Yeah.
• 27:40
  Ellen: Yeah.
• 27:41
  Ellen: And we should reinforce when they maturely stop having a fit and go, okay, or stop the emotional manipulation when they're upstairs and you can go, you did a really good job.
• 27:52
  Ellen: Thank you for responding in a more mature way.
• 27:54
  Cheryl: Oh, that's so good.
• 27:56
  Cheryl: Right.
• 27:56
  Christie: I have a funny example of the time that happened.
• 27:58
  Christie: It was, it was right in the middle of COVID.
• 28:01
  Christie: And one of my daughters, you know, we were still being very selective on how many people we were exposing ourselves to.
• 28:06
  Christie: And one of my daughters made a complete PowerPoint because she wanted to go over to a friend's house with one other girl.
• 28:13
  Christie: There were going to be three girls total that we hadn't really been around.
• 28:16
  Christie: And she made, I mean, we had nothing but time, right?
• 28:18
  Christie: And so she made a complete PowerPoint with slide after slide of all the reasons we should let her go.
• 28:24
  Christie: And I thought, you know, I appreciate your, your efforts there.
• 28:28
  Christie: And
• 28:28
  Cheryl: so I think we can say that's a hundred percent.
• 28:31
  Cheryl: Upstairs.
• 28:31
  Cheryl: Yes.
• 28:32
  Cheryl: Wow.
• 28:32
  Cheryl: And that's
• 28:32
  Christie: really great.
• 28:33
  Christie: Right.
• 28:33
  Christie: Yeah.
• 28:34
  Christie: That's excellent.
• 28:34
  Christie: And that's
• 28:35
  Ellen: something you'll have years of laughter of.
• 28:36
  Ellen: That's
• 28:37
  Cheryl: a great one.
• 28:39
  Cheryl: And I love his expression that he says, the way you deal with upstairs tantrums, because there's not a deep emotional need because a lot of, use the word terror, he says, our, our principle is we don't negotiate with terrorists.
• 28:53
  Cheryl: Laugh
• 28:54
  Christie: My husband used to say that when the kids were little, so when I read that I really laughed.
• 28:57
  Christie: Well, can I say one more thing?
• 28:58
  Christie: Absolutely.
• 28:59
  Christie: Okay.
• 28:59
  Christie: Bye.
• 28:59
  Christie: I think, I think that sometimes there is actually a need that they are coming from, usually an emotional need, but, or a strong desire maybe is better than a need.
• 29:11
  Christie: And so, I, I just think that's good to acknowledge.
• 29:14
  Christie: Like, I'm thinking of a, a recent tantrum with one of my girls.
• 29:17
  Christie: And she had a strong desire to be with a certain friend that was moving away.
• 29:23
  Christie: But I still had to say no.
• 29:24
  Christie: And so I just think that's good to remember, too, is sometimes there is a valid need.
• 29:28
  Christie: Because that's where I typically get pulled around the bullpen is when I'm like, Oh, but her friend's moving soon.
• 29:36
  Christie: And, you know, I start caving and negotiating.
• 29:39
  Christie: And so even if they're, you know, they make a good argument, sometimes it's okay to just still say no.
• 29:44
  Christie: Yes.
• 29:44
  Ellen: That's a really good point.
• 29:46
  Ellen: Very good
• 29:46
  Cheryl: point.
• 29:47
  Cheryl: So this is great stuff.
• 29:48
  Cheryl: Upstairs, downstairs, baby gate.
• 29:51
  Cheryl: terrorists.
• 29:53
  Cheryl: Laugh Great example on tantrums.
• 29:56
  Cheryl: All right.
• 29:56
  Cheryl: And, um, I look forward, so let's do some more next time.
• 30:02
  Cheryl: So parents, remember, hang in there, keep loving, keep persevering, because it's worth it.
• 30:16
  Well, I told you sometimes I feel like I was taken hostage by terrorist in my own home or my own car or in the doctor's office.
• 30:29
  What I will tell you, I never did have one present an entire PowerPoint to Bill and me explaining why they should get their own way.
• 30:41
  I really liked what Ellen said, that one of the best gifts we can give our children is the tools to know how to get from their basement to the upstairs in their brain.
• 30:55
  So what about you and your parenting?
• 30:57
  Do you struggle more with upstairs or downstairs tantrums?
• 31:02
  We'd love to hear from you.
• 31:04
  Text us, contact at TheParentingPodcast.
• 31:08
  com or DM us on social media.
• 31:12
  Oh, speaking of social media, if you're not, why don't you follow us and like us, share us, so more families can know about The Parenting Podcast and you don't miss anything.
• 31:24
  I'm so glad you're here today and I look forward to next time when we focus on how to develop our children's PFC.
• 31:32
  They're upstairs.
• 31:34
  Use it or lose it.
• 31:38
  Hope to see you then.