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Premium: When Josh Met Dick Cavett · Uncomfortable Conversations with Josh Szeps

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G'day, this is an abridged version of the episode that you can hear in full by signing up
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at uncomfortableconversations.substact.com slash subscribe. Enjoy the freebie.
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G'day, humans. Welcome to Safe Space and Anger of Safe Years.
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And here's a dangerous notion for you.
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Imagine everyone who you know sitting down at the same time
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in front of the various television sets scattered all over the various cities
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where they may reside and watching exactly the same thing at exactly the same time.
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Every night, every week, for years.
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We understand this phenomenon now with sport and probably reality TV.
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And a few other boutique shows that sort of get the zeitgeist like succession,
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maybe, or white lotus, but those things are flashes in the pan.
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They last for a few years and then they're replaced by something else.
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And the phenomenon that our parents' generation lived through
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that only ended about 10 years ago,
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where everybody watched basically the same small handful of things.
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And when one of those things was really successful,
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everybody was on the same page.
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Everybody was talking about the same show at work, at school.
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That is something that's quite hard for us now to wrap our brains around.
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But today's guest is a person who's important in the history of American broadcasting.
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It's difficult to overestimate because he was at a pinnacle at precisely the time
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when everybody was watching Dick Cabot.
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Dick Cabot started his show, well, let's go back further.
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He started out as a writer on the original tonight show.
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This was before Johnny Carson.
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This was when Jack Parr created the late night show format
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that is now done by all the coal bares and the chemicals and the fowls and so on.
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Jack Parr created that Dick Cabot was a writer on it.
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Out went Jack Parr and came Johnny Carson.
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Dick Cabot was writing for Johnny Carson for the great late Johnny Carson.
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He was given his own show in 1968, the Dick Cabot Show.
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And he became kind of known as the thinking man's talk show host.
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He was more sophisticated.
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He was the kind of place where ground show marks would come on,
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jumping on cigars, and then he'd have a long dialogue with Noam Chomsky
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about philosophy and books.
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And then he'd end with some huge big band number.
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I think the show used to be like 90 minutes long or something.
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It was a triumph.
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He was friends with Stan Laurel of Laurel and Hardy.
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He was friends with ground show marks.
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He was friends with Woody Allen.
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His show ran in various incarnations on various networks for 40 years,
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almost, and ended in 2007.
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One interesting tidbit of this is, in addition to his celebrity,
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he was incredibly notorious in the 1970s with the Nixon administration.
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In June of 1971, his show featured a debate between John Kerry,
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the future senator and presidential candidate,
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and Vietnam War veteran who was opposed to the war,
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and John O'Neill, who was a fellow veteran who was pro-war.
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And O'Neill had been approached by the Nixon administration
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to work through the Vietnam veterans for a just piece
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to push back against John Kerry's influence on the public
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and try to foster more pro-war sentiment among the American public.
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And the debate went pretty badly for the pro-war side.
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John Kerry wiped the floor with them,
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Dick Havett presided majestically over the whole affair.
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And then, when Watergate happens,
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and the White House Oval Office tapes are leaked,
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are released or obtained,
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you hear President Nixon saying,
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well, is there any way we can screw Kavett?
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That's what I mean, there must be ways.
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And Holderman, who's his White House chief of staff,
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says we've been trying to,
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if you go through the records of the Watergate records,
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Dick Havett's name comes up 26 times as Nixon rails against him
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because Kavett was repeatedly highlighting
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the wrongdoings of the Nixon administration on his show.
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That's just a little interesting tidbit.
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There were many such tidbits in his illustrious career.
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He hosted the biggest stars of music, film, and TV.
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He hosted seminal political debates.
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And as you may or may not know,
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before I was a radio host and podcaster,
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I was a television host and I lived in New York
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for the majority of my professional life.
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And on one of the TV shows,
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I did there, I welcomed Dick Kavett to the couch.
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It was a huge honor.
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Enjoy this never-before-heard rendition
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of the TV segment that I did
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with the one and only, The Legendary, Dick Kavett.
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The Walls and 35 years,
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he hosted the Dick Kavett show,
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interviewing the biggest stars in the world
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from Marlon Brando to Groucho Marx,
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to Woody Allen, Muhammad Ali, Lucille Ball.
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He co-hosted the Emmy Awards with Bill Cosby.
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He's been nominated for at least 10 Emmys, he won three.
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Dick Kavett is here, a talk show host,
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from a time when that actually meant something,
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when not every monkey on the street called at it.
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I was watching some of your stuff earlier today
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and I was thinking about all the talk show,
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you got Conan, you got Ferguson, you got Letterman,
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you got Leno, you got Fallon, you got Stuart,
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you got Colbert, you got this rinky-dink little outfit,
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we got Conan, we're on the internet for crying out loud.
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Back then, there was three of you.
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There was three of you.
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There was three of you.
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The opening, I said, this is going to be about how to do
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your talk show when you get it,
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because the Rand Corporation has proved that by 2004,
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this is how far back I did this.
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Everyone in America will have his own talk show.
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That's right.
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And now it's true.
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And now it's true on YouTube that it actually happens.
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Kids don't get any thrill out of seeing themselves
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in pictures, because they have all their lives
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when it comes to games and stuff like that.
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The world has changed and not always for the better.
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And have you noticed how many wonderful people
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are dying this year, just to put us on a bright note?
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Oh, yeah.
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Yeah, David Frost.
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David Frost, we just lost David Frost.
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Frost, yes, and why is it never Dick Cheney?
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Well, that's not really.
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Well, come on, it'll be certain enough.
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The man doesn't even have a heart.
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He's got some electronic machine in his chest,
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just thumping his blood around that corpse.
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Yeah, and letting corpse.
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And what it costs is, but it's your show.
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Yes, and you're the guest.
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So let's go back to, I'd love to start, you know,
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when you were sort of in your early 20s, 1960,
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you're living here in New York City,
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you're working as a, I think, a typist or something.
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You're doing magic, you're doing little bits of your,
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you're an extra.
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If I'd asked you then, what your life was going to become?
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What would you have said?
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I'm going to spend my life as a talk show.
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I, I guess I would have said it's probably
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what it's going to be now.
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I sneak into television shows and watch Jackie Gleason
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and people like that whose names need a footnote now
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for the young viewers.
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And then I work as a copy boy at Time Magazine
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for $60 a week.
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What are your ambitions, who are your heroes?
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I want my ambition was dumb and simple.
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I knew, though I loved Nebraska, and more since I left,
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my ambition was to be in show business.
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Now, what did that mean for you at the time?
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Did it mean void world, did it mean television?
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Yeah, I, I guess I pictured it mostly actor.
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I made rounds as an actor.
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I made rounds.
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I got my eight by 10 glasses,
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because I was told you have to have them.
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You do, you're still do, say again.
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You still do.
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Well, I said, yeah, it's like one of those.
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The worst part was once I took my 10 glasses
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into a prominent casting director lady,
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and she said, how nice to have you here,
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and thank you, and please leave your picture.
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And as I went out the second door,
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I could hear my glasses hit the waist.
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Yes, please.
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So then you started writing, right?
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You started writing for, for Jack Pa,
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was that the first real gig?
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Yeah, that, that was a, a case of Hutzpah,
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a word I did not know in Nebraska,
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where I briefly.
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Happy Russia Shana, by the way.
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Well, oh, thank you.
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Yeah, thank you.
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Yeah, Gans Richtigia, isn't that a Gansamaka?
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You're talking to the wrong,
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I'm sorry.
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Yeah, I boldly took a monologue
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to the host of the tonight show, a huge star.
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And just to remind people,
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was part of it.
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This was massive back.
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I mean, this was Jack Pa's tonight show,
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was the precursor to Johnny Carson's show.
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It was really the first, well, after Steve Allen,
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it was the first major incarnation of a talk show
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that everyone in the country would sort of sit there.
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Yeah, it really was.
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Jack owned the term talk show in those days.
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And he was the king of that.
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And the world was in his hand.
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And when I handed him my monologue that I wrote for him
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in a corridor where he had just come from the men's room.
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Jack claimed I chased him into the men's room
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to make it a better story.
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If I had not done that at that moment
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with that accidental timing,
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and if there had been security at NBC as there is now,
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I would not have come to the back elevators,
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knew where his office was,
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and you would feel silly sitting there talking to
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an empty couch.
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It would be very boring, wouldn't it?
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But you can do it, man.
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On tap dance.
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Josh, I am faith you can do anything.
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I have some kosha food stuffs.
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I'd read, I'd read aloud.
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And I love what you've done with the place in your-
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Lovely, look at this.
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Your crochet work is absolutely prize-winner.
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I've just had exactly, this is Kashmir.
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I'll have another daikery.
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Anyway, I feel kind of funny around you.
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It's, how was it?
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Well, I decided whether or not to wear a jacket,
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and because I liked the informality
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of the look of this whole interview,
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I thought two out of three of your friends out here
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did not have them, but I feel kind of funny without one
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because I've always always worn one.
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You want to take my jacket?
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Oh, wait, your mic's on it.
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We better do this next time.
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No, no, no, no, no.
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I'll take the mic.
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Oh, God, really?
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Yeah, sure, of course.
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Take my, take my, take my-
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Did you show me this in gray?
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This is on.
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I think, oh, my IFB is also on, but that's all right.
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Oh, wait.
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I've caused him.
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I've made a batch of things.
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You've made a, you've ruined everything.
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Take my jacket.
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I never thought you would give me the chance of doing it.
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We're not, we're nothing if not professional here.
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How do I look?
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It looks quite cool.
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How do I look?
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So let me just get the, the, the collar here.
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Yeah, yeah.
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Great shirt.
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Do you mind if I have that shirt?
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Yeah.
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I've got answers.
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I've got answers.
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Yeah.
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Watching the show, watching the channel, watching the,
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there's whatever the new term is for things that you watch.
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I call it a screaming talk thingy.
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Streaming talk is good, yeah.
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It sounds like screaming talk.
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The screaming talk.
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But people have said to me, well, why did it,
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where's the picture so little?
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How many people watching us now, as I did not until this morning,
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know that you can take that picture and blow it up the full set?
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You can blow it up, yes.
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Yeah, yeah.
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Well, hopefully a lot of people know,
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otherwise they're going to go crazy
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and we're going to hurt their eyes.
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Don't you think probably a lot of them
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are watching us as little offusions now on that screen?
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I don't want to make you feel old,
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but I feel like the younger generation would get it.
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They'd click on it and then it'd be better being better boom.
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It'd be, it'd be big.
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How would you make me feel old?
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Because I'm in the flying.
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I'm in the flying.
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Let's move along to the night show.
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So you then start working on the tonight show, right?
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And you were writing for Carson in his heyday.
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I mean, was there a point during all of this
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where you thought, holy moly, I've made it.
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I'm actually making it.
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I'm actually working on the biggest show in the world.
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Absolutely, and shrewd on your part to ask that.
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And the great, great comedy writer, David Lorden,
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they were way back then said one day at the back elevator.
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If meth-stufflies would appear now,
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we would make a Faustian bargain
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that for the rest of our lives,
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we would make $360 a week,
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which was our fabulous salary.
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Yeah.
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Well, it probably wasn't bad back then, right?
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It wasn't bad, it was.
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It was good.
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I can't do the math of what, 360, and 1960?
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What's, I mean, it's certainly thousands of dollars a week,
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right, I would imagine.
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Later, I worked for Jerry Lewis for a time,
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and I heard my manager on the show saying,
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my client doesn't work for a thousand a week, boom.
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And I wanted to get him back, of course,
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and I worked for 360.
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To show I will.
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And then it got to 1200.
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I mean, this was a time when you were in,
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you were meeting and working with Woody Allen
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and Groucho Marks, right?
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And Stan Laurel, I read, you knew Stan Laurel?
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I got to know Stan Laurel.
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I hope young people know who Stan Laurel is.
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Well, I do, because Laurel and Heidi were always on in my,
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they were my dad's heroes, so they were always on at home.
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When that door opened to his apartment in Santa Monica,
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and there was a nice elderly gentleman in a tie
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and white shirt who said, well, that is nice to meet you.
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I got cold again just now.
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As somebody said, you pointed out in your blog about it,
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your line was, my never having met Stan Laurel
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was about to end in your open.
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It's amazing.
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Wonderful man, very intelligent smart,
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strange to see him that way.
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And to be sitting and talking with him and thinking,
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this is the man who pushed the piano up the steps.
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Yeah, all these classic old black and white comedies.
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And so in the late 60s, 68, you're in your early 30s
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and all of a sudden the Dick Cavett show,
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or maybe not all of a sudden,
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how does that even happen that ABC comes to you and goes,
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let's just, you know, may I call you John?
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You may call me Mr. Zeps.
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Professor Zeps Esquire, the third.
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I learned three years ago how I got a talk show on ABC
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and it was silly.
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I did a pilot that was a crummy pilot.
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Five parts following some stars story
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and ABC hated it, but they liked the kid
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and thought maybe we should try him
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on our experiment with a talk show in daytime.
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And I went from daytime to nighttime and here you and I are.
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Here we are.
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What about comedy today?
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Are we putting people to sleep talking about the history of cut?
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No, I don't think so.
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No.
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I mean, we'll get there.
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Smart kids know their marks, brothers.
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They know.
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Well, at the very least they're aware of the legacy,
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especially also of the talk show,
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because I mean, the talk show as I was sort of facetiously
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saying earlier on has proliferated
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into so many different incarnations now
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and there are so many of them,
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but they're all essentially modeled off the same thing.
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I mean, they're all essentially modeled off that show
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that you're working on, Jack Parr and Steve Allen
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and Johnny Carcissus.
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It's an inspiration of the tonight's show.
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Simple phenomenon, people chat and talk.
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And you were just saying before we went to air
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about the summer awful.
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Which ones do you hate?
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Oh, I hate that woman with it.
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Oh.
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Chelsea Handball?
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We're not on, are we?
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No, we're not.
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No one's going to watch this.
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It's not like the internet.
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You can say whatever you want.
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But yeah, if I name people I don't like, it would take too long.
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And if I name some who are well known that I don't like,
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since I know them all and they all think I'm your friend.
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I'm going to say some nice, and if you like them,
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you can nod.
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And if you don't like them, you don't have to do anything.
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And then you won't be saying anything.
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This is called the second game segment.
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Yeah, exactly.
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No one will know.
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No one will know.
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OK.
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I'll do three for you.
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OK.
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Conan O'Brien.
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Oh, my God.
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Are we on?
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As they always say, our talk show, Conan
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is a dear friend.
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A dear friend of OK.
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Good point.
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I've been on his show and had a good time with him.
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Jay Leno.
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Who?
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He's the current host of the Tonight Show.
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What was his name?
15:43
Jay Leno.
15:43
Oh, Jay.
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Yeah.
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Jay is a funny guy.
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We go way back.
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And I did a bad thing once.
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I told how once we were doing a radio show together,
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and he got a call from California.
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There's been an earthquake.
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And like any husband, he went quick to the phone
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and got his wife and said, honey,
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did any of the motorcycles follow?
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Very good.
16:08
He's an insect.
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Now, I know Jay will laugh at my tell.
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Yes.
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Yes.
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How about Jimmy Kimmel?
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He's up and coming, kid.
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I love him.
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I was on a show with him.
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And let me quickly insert that I love the other Jimmy, too.
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I think Fallon is a giant.
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Really?
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Yeah, he is.
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He's growing into it as he ages.
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He'll be even more interesting to watch
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because he's got everything you need.
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He's got humor.
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He's a mimic that's brilliant.
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He's got musical knowledge.
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He handled himself and his guests beautifully.
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He's terrific.
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Interesting.
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He's like that.
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Now, you mentioned Kimmel.
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I was on his show, and there was a lady
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from one of those shows that
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has lots of women in the cast.
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And I don't know who she was, unfortunately.
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And for some reason, Kimmel pointed out
17:06
to my surprise that I was chewing gum.
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And I may go into back to psychiatry,
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but I took my gum out and put it in her glass of water.
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Now, I have no idea why.
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I got great credit for a comic bit,
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but I didn't mean it to me.
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Speaking of lots and lots of talk shows proliferating,
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Arsenio Hall, who I normally think of as being someone
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who Bill Clinton went on the show
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and played saxophone in the early 90s,
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who's coming back on TV.
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What are your thoughts about us?
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Or as I've seen her coming back?
17:37
Yeah, he's coming back.
17:38
Yeah, he's good.
17:39
Yeah.
17:40
All right.
17:41
Yeah, you haven't named any of the people I hate.
17:42
OK, that's good.
17:43
Chelsea Handler.
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Who?
17:45
She's on E.
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Oh, yeah, I was my favorite.
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We actually have a comment coming in
17:52
from one of our producers, Ricky Kamaleri.
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He sometimes fills in as a host.
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He says, John Cassavetes is one of my favorite filmmakers.
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We are expecting him and the rest of the cast of husbands
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to bring the chaotic tone of the movie onto your set.
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I have a clip of this.
18:04
This is Peter Falk, Ben Gussara,
18:07
John Cassavetes, and they gave you quite a hard time.
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Let's take a look.
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I'm not going to look.
18:12
Let's go back to the point where I've always been
18:13
great fans of these three guys.
18:15
Hi.
18:16
Hi.
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Do you have a question for me, Dick?
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I want it.
18:20
If you have anything that has, feel free.
18:28
Is Peter know how this works?
18:29
Peter knows where the camera is.
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Is that really how it works?
18:33
Hey, did you improvise a film or what?
18:35
I'm going to make it.
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Did I personally improvise?
18:37
Oh, the three of you.
18:38
Do you do?
18:39
What do you mean by now?
18:40
It's just seriously now.
18:41
Yes, of course.
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What do you mean by improvise?
18:50
I mean, improvise.
18:51
IMPROVISE.
18:53
That's wrong.
18:54
That's wrong.
18:55
That's the common misconception.
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What do you spell it?
18:58
P-O-R-V-I-O-E?
18:59
I don't know what you're doing.
19:02
Go ahead, Peter.
19:03
Oh, I'm in it.
19:04
So the question is, thank the man.
19:05
You can't let him die like this.
19:09
Thank you for picking one of the worst memories of my entire life.
19:13
I mean, the heart of the art of being a host is being a ringmaster in situations like
19:18
that where everything is falling apart.
19:20
What was going through your head?
19:22
They were acting stupid and drunk, and it wasn't entirely acting.
19:27
I think that pretty well covers it.
19:29
I love all three of those guys, but they mistakenly assumed it would be funny to come on the
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show, pissed, as they say in Britain or as a French say, shifas.
19:41
And it didn't play well, and the audience got disgusted.
19:46
And at one point, I said, the honest thought which got a laugh, I can't believe it.
19:50
This very stage, seven days ago, I had Alfred Lenton Tann and Noel Coward, and look what
19:56
I have tonight.
19:58
An interesting fact afterwards, they went off.
20:02
They thought they were funny, and their director just ringed him and said, you have probably
20:08
unsolved half the tickets we might have gotten for this film, if not more.
20:14
Or?
20:15
Or it was great.
20:16
I mean, any publicity is good publicity.
20:17
I mean, when you're in situations like that, you've always kind of been known as an intellectuals
20:22
sort of interviewer.
20:23
Oh, you've got to fight that.
20:24
A minute that word comes out.
20:25
But that's something you're always critically excited about.
20:29
You're always critically acclaimed, you're always like, and this was an era when talk shows
20:43
started.
20:44
You know, I mean, Johnny Carson would have Carl Sagan on, and intellectual, I mean, there
20:47
was a deal.
20:48
I wonder what you think about talk shows now, which are...
20:50
Johnny was no dummy.
20:51
No.
20:52
Right.
20:53
And because he graduated from the University of Nebraska for one thing.
20:56
But do you think it's time now, I guess, is my question?
20:58
I don't know if that attitude is still around or what, but being hung with the word intellectual,
21:05
and in my case, it had to do with, I didn't know any better than to think you have to read
21:09
the guest's books.
21:10
So I did.
21:12
And I'd read a 400-page book and do eight minutes with the guest and think, what a nit.
21:18
I was to do this, but it's a bad...
21:22
Also, I feel a little sorry for me.
21:25
I say a country that thinks I'm an intellectual.
21:29
Have they ever seen one?
21:32
Well, better you saying that than me.
21:34
I always get hyped my own.
21:35
Yeah, I know.
21:36
Are you a foreigner?
21:37
I am.
21:38
I'm an Australian.
21:39
Oh, no.
21:41
Let's take a look at another memorable interview.
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This is Brandon.
21:44
One of my favorites of yours.
21:45
I saw this years ago and I thought it was incredible.
21:47
Brandon was discussing basically your job performance.
21:50
He starts turning it around and he talks about what it takes to be a host.
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This is June of 1973.
21:54
I'd like to see that.
21:55
I don't think I could play the role that you're playing now.
21:59
But this is me.
22:00
I'm letting it all hang out.
22:01
No, it's not me.
22:04
It isn't...
22:05
Is it me?
22:06
I mean, I think that you...
22:08
I mean, you're thinking of 60 things at once.
22:10
How is it going?
22:11
Is it getting dull?
22:13
Is he upset and distressed and not tick of it?
22:17
Is he bored?
22:20
Is he offended?
22:22
Yeah, here's a good time for a joke.
22:25
We haven't got much time.
22:26
You're thinking about 9 million things.
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And reacting to what I say.
22:31
How is that going to be?
22:33
Is that going to be offensive?
22:34
No, that's good.
22:35
So you're doing this editing at an insane rate.
22:40
And you have to do that.
22:44
And that's your job.
22:45
And you have this demeanor of levity and lightness and amusement and zest.
22:52
And it's easy to abstain.
22:55
That, finally, isn't what goes on in your mind or your feelings at all.
23:00
I just feel like all my clothes have been taken off.
23:04
That's it, my favorite moment from that show.
23:07
I said, the movie The Godfather is something.
23:10
Do you think it's going to be such a great experience?