Latest / Bitcoin for Financial Services Podcast / Satoshis Per Square Foot: Bitcoin's Takeover of Commercial Real Estate

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Satoshis Per Square Foot: Bitcoin's Takeover of Commercial Real Estate · Bitcoin for Financial Services Podcast

• 0:00
  Correct. Correct. So just round numbers. Let's say you have a small distribution operation or you're manufacturing some kind of widget, whatever. You go to lease a warehouse, the three-year lease is a million dollar total value.
• 0:16
  It is not uncommon for it to cost the landlord $150,000 to re-tenant that building or that unit.
• 0:30
  And keep in mind, that is upfront capital, right? So that landlord has to have checking account, reserves, what have you, to be able to re-tenant that space, right? You have tenant improvements, you have downtime and carry costs, you have broker commissions, you got legal. Depending on the type of property, there's probably some architectural fees, planning and permitting.
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• 2:41
  Today, we're joined by Chris Drisco,
• 2:44
  Vice President and Principal at Voight Real Estate Services.
• 2:48
  Let's get started.
• 2:52
  Welcome back to Bitcoin Financial Services Podcast.
• 2:58
  Joined by a special, special guest here today, Chris Drinka, Senior Vice President and Principal at Voight Real Estate Services.
• 3:05
  Dear friend of the pod and speaker at Bitcoin Financial Services Summit 2026.
• 3:10
  How are you doing, Chris?
• 3:12
  I'm doing really well, guys.
• 3:13
  Thanks for having me.
• 3:14
  Excited for it.
• 3:16
  Yeah, I'm looking forward to getting to know you a bit more, Chris, and hearing about what you're up to.
• 3:21
  So tell us about like for guys like me that aren't super familiar with you and your work, give us the background.
• 3:29
  How did you come into Bitcoin? What did you do prior to Bitcoin? And how are you weaving that into your work today?
• 3:37
  Yeah, so I've been a commercial real estate broker and investor for a little over 15 years now.
• 3:44
  I got into the business right out of college in the depths of the GFC and got into brokerage, you know, really just as a, you know, one of the few opportunities that was available to a recent college grad.
• 3:59
  Is that because they don't have to pay you?
• 4:02
  Pretty much. Yeah. It's a hundred percent commission job. You work your tail off and you eat what you kill.
• 4:06
  And they, you know, they hire a bunch of us every spring, beginning of summer, and they know that 99% of them will fall out.
• 4:14
  If you want the honest truth, that's exactly what it is.
• 4:22
  So I grew up around commercial real estate. I always knew I wanted to be in the commercial real estate industry. I just didn't know where exactly.
• 4:30
  And I thought the brokerage world was a great way to kind of get a lot of different perspectives, see a lot of deals, get some opportunities to invest in deals.
• 4:41
  So that was the route that I pursued. And along that, not only the brokerage journey, but trying to get into different investment opportunities, again, 2011 up to 2017, 2018, I couldn't put my finger on it exactly, but I knew intuitively something was wrong.
• 5:05
  Right The goalposts were constantly moving It was getting harder to pencil deals There was more competition every single day than there was the day before So it was just I couldn put my finger on it And I ended up finding Bitcoin the second time in 2018 end of 2018 early 2019 And that was when I really gave it the time it deserved Fell down the rabbit hole have yet to come back up
• 5:36
  and have yet to come back up for air.
• 5:40
  And really spent a lot of time thinking about
• 5:45
  how Bitcoin was going to disrupt
• 5:49
  and change the apex financial asset,
• 5:54
  which is commercial real estate.
• 5:56
  Commercial real estate has been the primary asset
• 5:59
  and wealth builder tax efficiency vehicle
• 6:03
  over the last 40, almost 50 years.
• 6:06
  And when you have that Bitcoin light bulb go off
• 6:10
  and go through the process that we all have to go through,
• 6:15
  it was really difficult to kind of come to terms with that.
• 6:20
  Like, holy cow, what does this mean for capital allocation?
• 6:24
  What does this mean for store of value?
• 6:26
  How are people going to operate properties?
• 6:30
  How are tenants going to be making decisions?
• 6:31
  How are landlords going to go about their operations?
• 6:35
  So I really spent the next few years keeping it to myself and just trying to work through all these different components.
• 6:46
  And I didn't get vocal on it until strategy released their first press.
• 6:56
  And I know that's a very polarizing topic.
• 6:58
  We don't have to go down that direction today.
• 7:01
  But the point being is there's such a large percentage of the commercial real estate world that depend on the cash flow, right, that comes from those properties, right?
• 7:11
  Whether it's, you know, your living expenses or otherwise.
• 7:16
  It did not matter.
• 7:17
  Bitcoin's CAGR could have been 200% a year, right?
• 7:21
  It did not matter because of that cash flow component.
• 7:24
  And so many people are reliant on it.
• 7:26
  So when you coming back to the preferred offering, the preferred equities, I'm like, oh my gosh, okay, I've been waiting for businesses to integrate Bitcoin in some way, to build on top of Bitcoin in some way. And now you have these vehicles that are providing income streams based on Bitcoin. This is really, really interesting.
• 7:49
  right and they are a superior uh in in a lot of ways they are superior uh to real estate so i kind
• 8:00
  of kept saying to myself okay like if i'm if i'm looking at deploying capital into real estate and
• 8:05
  i have all these other options right including digital credit there's going to be a transition
• 8:12
  there's going to be a move away from real estate into not only the other options but digital credit
• 8:19
  as well. So that's a long-winded way of saying that cashflow piece suddenly appeared. And that's
• 8:26
  when I was like, hey, I got to start talking about this and be vocal and try to lead the charge in
• 8:33
  the industry and get people talking about it. Whether you like it or not, it's coming. So let's
• 8:38
  try to pool our collective brainpower and get ahead of this. I'm not saying I have all the answers,
• 8:43
  but there's a lot of smart people in our industry.
• 8:47
  And if we get together, acknowledge what's happening here,
• 8:51
  the structural shifts, not only in the industry,
• 8:53
  but at society at large, I'm pretty positive.
• 8:57
  I'm pretty certain that we can come up with some really good ways
• 9:00
  to navigate this transition and make it really less volatile.
• 9:09
  Yeah, man. No, that is amazing.
• 9:11
  I appreciate you sharing.
• 9:12
  And I want to get into your work at the real estate standard and some of your consulting work here too.
• 9:17
  But before we do, I just kind of want to get your opinion.
• 9:20
  So like, if I think of like hard asset bros, you know, obviously like like Bitcoiners, apex predators, elite folks, you know, my peers.
• 9:30
  Right under that, I put like gold bugs.
• 9:32
  Like I'm sympathetic to gold bugs.
• 9:34
  I'm not like a gold bug hater because they know like the money's broke.
• 9:37
  They're like 90% of the way there.
• 9:38
  They just like haven't gotten all the way there.
• 9:40
  And I think like right under that, I put like real estate guys because, you know, they're in tune with hard assets, but it feels like there's a bigger jump from real estate to Bitcoin.
• 9:50
  They may not be in tune to like the money being broken, like gold bugs and Bitcoiners.
• 9:55
  Like, what do you think of my pyramid and like, has it been difficult or easy to orange pill real estate pros?
• 10:02
  That's an excellent question because I thought, I think about that all the time. And I thought
• 10:09
  going into this, it would be a lot easier to orange pill the real estate bros than it has been.
• 10:15
  Because when you think about what they're doing, they are doing exactly what we're doing,
• 10:19
  right They are taking their fiat and they are converting it into sound money Why is it such a jump to say okay instead of using real estate that has all of this overhead all this capital intensity all this risk and liquidity as well
• 10:38
  why would I not move that into Bitcoin that has the superior properties and better solves the same problem?
• 10:47
  Well, I was in for a rude awakening.
• 10:49
  because it has not been as easy as I thought it was going to be.
• 10:56
  That's fair.
• 10:58
  I'll give it to you here in a second, Jordan,
• 11:00
  so you don't have to bitch about it.
• 11:01
  But yeah, one saying, maybe you could, this isn't a shot.
• 11:07
  I have a lot of friends in real estate,
• 11:09
  a lot of good folks in real estate,
• 11:10
  but maybe you can approve or disprove this statement.
• 11:13
  But one of the funny sayings that I've always hung on to
• 11:16
  was that somebody told me once,
• 11:17
  the most rich dumb people are in real estate. And maybe that's why they haven't been able to make
• 11:23
  the jump to Bitcoin. You're not wrong. You're not wrong. And I mean, you kind of look at,
• 11:32
  I have a lot of personal experiences and examples I can point to there. There are a lot of people
• 11:40
  that have done really, really well in real estate that they're not the sharpest tool in the shed.
• 11:48
  Let's just leave it there. What is that a function of? It's a function of the broken system
• 11:54
  and riding the greatest secular trend over the last 50 years along with bonds. Great.
• 12:01
  But I don't really know, I guess, where I was going with that comment. But yeah, you're exactly
• 12:06
  you're right. There's a lot of those examples out there. And I think there's just a lot of inertia
• 12:11
  in the marketplace because it has worked so well for so long.
• 12:17
  Right. Hey, I didn't get to be a, you know, 10 million, 50 million, a hundred million
• 12:23
  dollar net worth guy, you know, buying digital assets. I did it through commercial real estate,
• 12:29
  right? I used the system. I used what was available to me. I, you know, I, I, I executed
• 12:36
  the process year over year, cycle after cycle and scaled it out.
• 12:43
  Right.
• 12:43
  Which I get, I get, I mean, if I was in that situation, it'd probably be really, really
• 12:47
  hard for me to, um, think differently or, or, you know, really just uproot my entire
• 12:54
  understanding of, of money and financial assets.
• 12:59
  It's, it's a big leap.
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• 13:34
  Yeah, I mean, I was just going to jump in and ask, you know, so many rich people, they store their wealth in real estate.
• 13:40
  And, you know, some news that has come to fruition, I guess, even this week.
• 13:45
  I know it's kind of been out in the news in the past month or two, but the whole New York tax on if you don't live in your property, they're going to assess this tax on your property.
• 13:55
  Do you think that things like that, be it in California or in New York, do you think that is starting to wake up real estate investors at all to say, hey, maybe I don't have as much control over this asset class as I thought I once did.
• 14:11
  Maybe I need to reconsider, you know, where I'm storing that wealth so that the government can't just step in and say, we're going to try to take your property or we're going to try to tax it into oblivion.
• 14:23
  And so you're forced to sell.
• 14:25
  And if you're the last guy holding the bag in New York City, maybe your property value
• 14:29
  thought it was one number.
• 14:30
  And now it's actually quite a bit less because of some kind of flight out of that jurisdiction.
• 14:36
  I'm just curious your thoughts on that.
• 14:39
  Yeah.
• 14:39
  No, it's definitely on people's radar.
• 14:43
  It's definitely a more common topic than it has been previously.
• 14:47
  I mean, I can just tell you from my own day-to-day experience in my own business, I work a lot with private businesses, private investors.
• 14:59
  Those guys don't necessarily make the news headlines for transitioning their businesses or their real estate portfolios out of California.
• 15:09
  I can tell you firsthand the sheer volume that myself and even my firm and my competitors do in our Southern California market, helping business owners and investors transition to more tax-favorable jurisdictions is extensive.
• 15:29
  It's significant.
• 15:31
  So it definitely on people radars when I think about some of the people that are maybe not making those maneuvers now it almost like a boiling frog situation It like they think that
• 15:54
  they've been hearing this topic, this concern for so many, many years. It's never really come to
• 16:00
  fruition. They've always been able to route around it. It's going to be okay. Don't worry about it.
• 16:05
  I think that's an incredibly dangerous position to operate from. Depending on the situation,
• 16:13
  depending on the asset, I could see a scenario where there's very few marginal buyers for
• 16:24
  certain assets. And that's going to make getting out of a certain market or a certain property type
• 16:31
  that much more difficult for those folks where they may, I mean, that's where the
• 16:36
  jurisdictional risk becomes very, very real. But now the illiquidity of real estate
• 16:41
  smacks you in the face. Well, on that point, you know, specifically, Chris, one thing that
• 16:48
  blows my mind most about real estate, you know, understand, you know, we can't live in our big
• 16:53
  It has a ton of utility value.
• 16:55
  It is a decent store, a value asset.
• 16:59
  Historically, it definitely has been.
• 17:00
  To your point, I think the winds are shifting there.
• 17:04
  One of the things that blows my mind and feels like nobody talks about that,
• 17:06
  I just want you to elaborate on, is exiting a position.
• 17:10
  My buddy and I were talking.
• 17:12
  He owns this house.
• 17:13
  Literally, the two neighbors directly to the right of him
• 17:16
  both place their house for sale at the same time.
• 17:18
  You know, so it's like, okay, my value, my wealth is stored in this hard asset in my home. Now, when I seek to exit that position, I am so subject to the whims of the market at the time, my direct competitors, the mark to market that I'm most directly up against is literally right next door.
• 17:45
  I mean, it's like, what a nightmare. You know, then you got like broker fees that it takes a long time. Like I just feels to me as somebody not in the industry, that that is just completely swept underneath the rug or not talked about enough.
• 17:58
  you're exactly right the level of just intermediation rent-seeking actors and
• 18:08
  behavior in real estate whether it's residential or commercial for that matter is is extensive
• 18:14
  that that's a problem i mean that's uh another you know i talk about how capital intensive real
• 18:20
  estate is that is part of it it's one of many components but that is very much part of it
• 18:25
  But on any given deal, again, I operate strictly in the commercial space, but any given deal, the number of different parties that have to touch the deal, right?
• 18:39
  And they have their hand out for some level of compensation, but the number of parties that have to touch a deal because of some compliance, some approval, it's incredible.
• 18:50
  I mean, the cost to transact a piece of real estate is, I mean, in a leasing scenario, people don't realize that depending on the situation, it is not uncommon for originating a new lease to cost 15 to 20% of the total lease value.
• 19:09
  Holy smokes.
• 19:10
  So if I want to rent like a warehouse, that's what you're talking about?
• 19:13
  Correct.
• 19:14
  Correct.
• 19:14
  So just round numbers.
• 19:15
  Let's say you have a small distribution operation or you're manufacturing some kind of widget, whatever.
• 19:23
  You go to lease a warehouse.
• 19:25
  The three-year lease is a million-dollar total value.
• 19:30
  It is not uncommon for it to cost the landlord $150,000 to retenant that building or that unit.
• 19:41
  and keep in mind that is upfront capital right so so that landlord has to have
• 19:48
  checking account reserves what have you to be able to to re-tenant that space right you have
• 19:54
  tenant improvements you have downtime and carry costs you have broker commissions you got legal
• 19:59
  if it you know depending on the type of property there's probably some architectural
• 20:03
  fees, planning and permitting. I'm negotiating a lease for a consumer products company right now,
• 20:13
  and they're expanding their office footprint. It's not a huge expansion.
• 20:20
  And in the construction bid, there's $25,000 in just planning and permitting fees. And this is
• 20:28
  a small, small expansion. It's a half million dollar tenant improvement,
• 20:32
  but there's $25,000 in fees that go to the local municipality.
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• 21:17
  So I guess my question is, because me coming at it from the tax side, we have a lot of clients that love real estate for the tax benefits.
• 21:28
  I guess today, the digital asset space is, and we could go into stretch if you wanted to, because there are some tax benefits there.
• 21:35
  But if you have someone who says, hey, I'm sitting on a ton of unrealized gain on my real estate property, even if I wanted to allocate into Bitcoin, it's difficult if I wanted to part with that real estate.
• 21:49
  I'm just curious, I guess, from all of the tax benefits that real estate provide that currently Bitcoin is just not there.
• 21:58
  How do you approach that conversation as you're talking with people about here's how you could embed Bitcoin into your real estate portfolio and considering the tax implications of changing from one asset class to the next?
• 22:12
  yeah i mean so i i the way i kind of heard that was two different categories right if you're if
• 22:22
  you're trying to exit your real estate right wash your hands and move your your asset move your wealth
• 22:28
  into to bitcoin there's the tax component right i i don't have a good solution for you you're still
• 22:34
  beholden to the existing regulations around that. I'm not telling you to go not pay your taxes.
• 22:44
  But for the other category or the other side of that question that I heard was,
• 22:50
  if I'm owning commercial real estate, how can I utilize Bitcoin? How can I integrate Bitcoin
• 22:57
  into the real estate to optimize and improve, right?
• 23:02
  Bitcoin is a new tool that complements and enhances the real estate.
• 23:08
  And there's a few different ways you can go about navigating that, right?
• 23:12
  If you're from a treasury standpoint only, a cash management standpoint,
• 23:17
  I would say understand what the cash flow needs of the property are
• 23:23
  and understand what you calculate,
• 23:27
  what your free cashflow is.
• 23:28
  What percentage of that free cashflow
• 23:30
  can you allocate into cold storage Bitcoin?
• 23:34
  That is a really, really easy first step.
• 23:38
  And you're going to say, why am I going to do that?
• 23:40
  Well, from the property standpoint,
• 23:42
  if I have a treasury that is held in Bitcoin,
• 23:46
  that is going to do a few things for me.
• 23:48
  It's going to help me build and maintain adequate reserves
• 23:52
  for CapEx projects and for maintenance.
• 23:56
  It's going to help me preserve my purchasing power.
• 24:00
  It's going to improve my credit worthiness.
• 24:02
  It's going to act as a collateral component
• 24:07
  as you go down, as you get into the future here.
• 24:11
  So there's a lot of optionality
• 24:14
  that comes with just holding Bitcoin
• 24:16
  as a strategic reserve asset, right?
• 24:20
  The second category in real estate is your capital stack. How are you able to integrate Bitcoin into the financing structure of the deal? Is there a way to raise capital through Bitcoin channels? Are you able to distribute returns to LPs through Bitcoin?
• 24:44
  There's a lot that goes into that capital stack bucket. But for the purposes of your question, Jordan, when you pair Bitcoin with the real estate, they're both tax advantage assets from the standpoint they're classified as property.
• 25:00
  So step one is if you've owned a property for any number of years, you have a refinance coming up typically any five to 10 year period. That's kind of what the commercial loan durations are.
• 25:13
  So what do most real estate owners do?
• 25:16
  They refinance it.
• 25:18
  They pull out some cash to deploy into the property to live off of, buy another property.
• 25:25
  Why is there not a fourth option there?
• 25:29
  Why is that fourth option not use some of those tax-free proceeds from the cash-out refi to establish that Bitcoin strategic reserve?
• 25:40
  To your point, tax-free proceeds.
• 25:42
  There's no carry cost.
• 25:43
  There's no drag on that Bitcoin.
• 25:45
  You set it and forget it, right?
• 25:48
  I mean, other than setting up your cold storage multi-sig, there's no ongoing cost.
• 25:54
  There's no carry cost, right?
• 25:58
  The one thing I missed there or I left out on the treasury strategy is if you been stacking Bitcoin for any period of time maybe you been through a cycle or two because of the property classification the wash sale rules don apply
• 26:15
  So now you can use some tax loss harvesting strategies to create those losses and carry those forward.
• 26:22
  I forgot.
• 26:23
  I left that out on the treasury.
• 26:24
  But so there's a handful of different ways to use Bitcoin to your advantage in a tax efficient way from the real estate component.
• 26:35
  Yeah, I completely agree.
• 26:37
  Well, and it's so exciting.
• 26:40
  I want to transition to your work with the real estate standard and what you're doing with your consulting company.
• 26:45
  But to kind of frame that up, like, you know, this is something I talk a lot about on the pod, but I've been doing a lot more work on Bitcoin investment product design.
• 26:53
  And I think like real estate is like uniquely positioned just where we're at, you know, I think in like the life cycle of a Bitcoin and kind of in between store value and unit of account.
• 27:04
  Investment products that are dual collateralized with another hard asset and like a cash flow component, I think are like the sweet spot of like getting additional, you know, outside dollars into Bitcoin.
• 27:15
  You're talking to folks about doing this, like what specifically is the kind of work you're doing?
• 27:21
  How are you having those conversations?
• 27:24
  Are you kind of merging these two industries?
• 27:28
  Yeah, I mean, to your point, Wyatt, on the pairing the investment, the product with Bitcoin,
• 27:37
  I'm incredibly excited about that.
• 27:39
  I think there's a lot of opportunity in the commercial real estate space to integrate Bitcoin
• 27:45
  into the loan structures, right?
• 27:47
  If you're a little bit more of an advanced Bitcoiner, you could probably do it on your own, right?
• 27:52
  If you're newer to this and you want a little bit more handholding, there are lenders out there today that are doing Bitcoin, dual collateralized Bitcoin loans, right?
• 28:07
  Where there is a sleeve of Bitcoin that acts as a, not only a second form of collateral, but it provides that kind of that counterbalance and that asymmetric upside.
• 28:20
  I think that's a really interesting space.
• 28:23
  There's going to be a lot of real estate owners that get onboarded to Bitcoin through that financing process, right?
• 28:31
  Like they're going to, I mean, any given, we're in the midst of a very, very robust refinancing cycle in CRE.
• 28:41
  There's this year and all the way through 2030, I believe, 2031, there's approximately a trillion dollars of commercial real estate debt coming due every single year.
• 28:51
  Right. So if you just took, you know, between 27 and the end of this decade, right, the next three years, right, you got, call it $3 trillion.
• 29:01
  in CRE debt being refinanced, if just 10% of that was to be put into Bitcoin in one way,
• 29:09
  shape, or form, that's another $300 billion worth of demand for the asset class.
• 29:16
  And guess what? Because there are providers out there doing all of this for it, you don't have
• 29:21
  to go and do your 10,000 hours of Bitcoin podcasts and books and tinkering. I'm a commercial real
• 29:28
  estate operator. My loan is coming due. I go call up my banker and say, hey, I want to start the
• 29:34
  conversation about my refinance. What options do you have for me? I'm still waiting for the Fed to
• 29:39
  cut rates. Ha ha ha. Where am I going to be? They're going to have two or three different options.
• 29:46
  And there's going to be one option that stands out above the others. And they're going to say,
• 29:50
  why is this option C so much more attractive than the others? And that banker or that loan broker
• 29:57
  is going to say, I'm so glad you asked. Here's what it is. And it's going to be a dual collateralized
• 30:02
  Bitcoin product. Right. And they're going to, that's how they're going to get onboarded to
• 30:08
  Bitcoin and they're going to get their Bitcoin exposure. And so you're, you're saying to clarify
• 30:14
  that, like there are folks in the market offering that already. Oh yeah. They said, would you,
• 30:19
  is that like new market capital, new market capital, battery finance, they're, they're the
• 30:25
  primary player. And they're doing a ton of volume, as I understand it. They were putting up some big
• 30:32
  boy numbers, Q4 of 2025 and through the first half of this year. And there are a handful of other
• 30:40
  providers in this space as well. And I just think that's only going to accelerate, especially with
• 30:46
  the more TradFi institutions rolling out these types of products.
• 30:51
  And that the uptake in those products is really being driven by the capital providers then.
• 31:01
  And you're saying like the real estate owners will be almost kind of like forced orange
• 31:07
  pillars forced orange pill because they getting a better deal because the lender feels more comfortable now that that asset is dual collateralized so they get a better rate is is that am i kind of summarizing that correctly that correct that correct and i mean i can go into the details there but it like
• 31:24
  when you add the bitcoin to the the long duration credit structure right and you
• 31:32
  you introduce or you reintroduce a lot more positive components right you're now incentivized
• 31:40
  over a longer time period, right?
• 31:42
  You're not incentivized to refinance it
• 31:44
  every time rates are cut a few basis points, right?
• 31:47
  Like I want that Bitcoin to sit there for seven years
• 31:49
  in cold storage and not move, right?
• 31:55
  Maybe my interest rate is a little bit less, right?
• 31:58
  Because there is this asymmetric component there.
• 32:01
  Maybe I don't have to put my house
• 32:03
  as a second form of collateral
• 32:05
  because I have the subject property and the Bitcoin, right?
• 32:09
  So you start going down the line here and you're like, wow, there's a lot of really good reasons to do this.
• 32:15
  And it doesn't involve me becoming a Bitcoiner and, again, spending a ton of time on Bitcoin books and podcasts and just living and breathing it.
• 32:26
  Most of the market's not going to do that.
• 32:29
  Yeah.
• 32:30
  No, that's very interesting.
• 32:31
  Do you want to go down the rabbit hole of stretch at all?
• 32:34
  because I know it's a contentious topic, but it is the only time that I've seen where Bitcoin
• 32:41
  provides like a rate of return, whereas that's always been, I think, a bugaboo with Bitcoin is
• 32:47
  that there isn't this like rate of return and therefore it's hard to value on the discounted
• 32:53
  cash flow model. Are you working stretch into any of these deals? Yes. So, and I don't want to go
• 33:02
  super deep on the stretch topic necessarily, but I think there's definitely a case to be made that
• 33:08
  you should look at this and consider it, right? Everyone's situation is different. Every asset is
• 33:13
  a little bit different. There's so, so understanding what all of your options and all of the tools
• 33:20
  that exist to you, that's just, that's good diligence. That's being prudent. Like just do it.
• 33:26
  you know what I mean? Um, I like stretching some of the digital credit products, particularly because
• 33:34
  particularly how it, it, the, the role it plays in like the intermediate, um, treasury
• 33:43
  tranche, right? So like I've talked about a lot, uh, with the, the real estate standard pod,
• 33:49
  having a three tranche treasury strategy, right? The, the first bucket is your immediate cash,
• 33:56
  One to three months, your basic daily stuff. Keep that in a checking account, U.S. dollars. Your intermediate reserves is, call it month four to 12, maybe it's four to 18. And the goal with that is to make those intermediate interim reserves work harder.
• 34:15
  But you're still going to need them for tenant improvements, legal fees, capital improvements, what have you.
• 34:24
  But they shouldn't be sitting in U.S. treasuries or checking accounts and just melting away.
• 34:32
  And then the third bucket is your long-term strategic capital.
• 34:37
  That's Bitcoin.
• 34:38
  And ideally, cold storage Bitcoin, multi-sig security model.
• 34:43
  right that's that's kind of what i've talked about as far as how you utilize um some of the digital
• 34:50
  credit products i would not use digital credit products as the sole vehicle for that intermediate
• 34:56
  tranche but does it does it deserve a sliver or some sort of allocation potentially yeah
• 35:04
  the return of capital classification uh is very interesting from a tax perspective as you know
• 35:11
  Jordan. I also think that intermediate tranche, like you think of some of the,
• 35:18
  you think of the product that River has out there right now, right? Where your cash balance gets
• 35:23
  paid out in Bitcoin, right? I think it's 3.3% right now. I think that's a really
• 35:30
  risk adverse way of getting Bitcoin exposure and accumulating Bitcoin over a period of time,
• 35:37
  Right. That account is FDIC insured up to 250 grand, just like all your other accounts are. So go put some of your working capital into an account like River and accumulate Bitcoin passively that way.
• 35:52
  Right. So there's a lot of different ways to go about it. There's not a silver bullet. And I think that's one of the most exciting things for me when I'm talking about integrating Bitcoin into your commercial real estate is there is no one size fits all.
• 36:09
  Every market is different. Every property is different. Every owner's needs are different.
• 36:15
  So again going back to you know kind of the the guiding principle here is you have a new tool to your that that improves your commercial real estate right Let understand what that is and how we can integrate it into your property or into your broader portfolio
• 36:39
  Totally.
• 36:40
  Well, and that's what I think is so cool about the work you're doing.
• 36:44
  When you're on the forefront of something and it's new, you can get really creative.
• 36:48
  some of the things I want to start digging into. You've spent a lot of time thinking about
• 36:53
  new metrics, whether that's digital rent or Satoshi's per square foot. How are you thinking
• 37:00
  about valuing deals, communicating the value of some of these digital credit or Bitcoin products
• 37:07
  integrated into real estate assets and educating the market on how that ultimately affects value?
• 37:15
  Yeah, great question. So you mentioned it earlier. Myself and a partner of mine, basically, we spun up the Real Estate Standard podcast. Real low budget. We do it once a week, a live stream it on Twitter and post it elsewhere thereafter.
• 37:39
  And what we're doing there is we're having this conversation, right? We're looking at commercial real estate through the lens of Bitcoin. And we are integrating these strategies, the treasury strategy I mentioned, the capital stack, and then the third bucket is your operations.
• 37:55
  We are integrating Bitcoin into all three of those different buckets with a specific property.
• 38:04
  And we're tracking our results in real time.
• 38:07
  It's 100% transparent.
• 38:08
  You can go check out our dashboard at your leisure.
• 38:12
  And the exciting thing is the strategy is working.
• 38:18
  And the financial results are speaking for themselves in a very, very short period of time.
• 38:25
  during a bear market, mind you, which is not necessarily the norm or what commercial real
• 38:31
  estate folks are used to. I mean, the commercial real estate space moves at a glacial pace compared
• 38:37
  to pretty much every other asset class, right? So, you know, what you do today in commercial
• 38:43
  real estate often doesn't bear any fruit for 12, 18, 24 months, right? Like the leasing example I
• 38:52
  gave you earlier, which is the upfront capital required to originate a new lease, on that
• 38:57
  example, the landlord's break-even point is somewhere around month 20 and month 22 of a 36-month
• 39:06
  term, right? So the fact that we're able to, or we're seeing again in real time that, hey,
• 39:14
  this strategy is working, the balance sheet is strengthening, we have more optionality today
• 39:19
  than we did 12 months ago is incredibly exciting.
• 39:23
  And from there, now it's just a function of getting in front of more commercial real estate
• 39:28
  owners and having the conversation that we're having here today and letting them know that
• 39:33
  you don't have to sell your property.
• 39:36
  You don't have to reconfigure your life or your investment portfolio, right?
• 39:40
  You can do what you're doing now, but you have new tools available to make things perform better from a financial standpoint, but also become a lot more resilient and be able to navigate the cyclicality of real estate and the structural trends that are taking place a lot easier.
• 40:02
  I'm curious to ask you about, so overall in real estate land, I think there's a big movement to
• 40:10
  build out these data centers. And then obviously there's Bitcoin mining that's been doing that kind
• 40:15
  of thing for a while now. Have you seen that out in the wild where any of these properties,
• 40:22
  you're integrating Bitcoin mining into the actual property itself or mixing between AI
• 40:28
  compute and Bitcoin mining inside of a big facility?
• 40:34
  Yes. And I'm glad. Thank you for asking that because this is actually...
• 40:38
  Thank you, Jordan.
• 40:39
  Thank you, Jordan. This is probably the most, like where I'm most excited,
• 40:45
  is where you can integrate Bitcoin mining into the operations. And just a quick comment on the
• 40:53
  data centers. I mean, the data center space is the sexiest girl at the dance right now. Everybody's
• 40:59
  talking about it. Capital's chasing it. It's every headline. That is not what I'm doing. That is not
• 41:06
  where I'm playing. That is a specialized subsector in and of itself. There are a lot more
• 41:15
  informed folks on that topic than me.
• 41:20
  What I'm doing is thinking about how Bitcoin mining can improve and enhance your existing operation, your existing system.
• 41:31
  So if you as a property owner come at this from the standpoint of how can I mine Bitcoin profitably in my property,
• 41:39
  you're going to fail almost every single time.
• 41:43
  Because again, to your point, you cannot compete with the data centers, the hyperscalers, these institutional operations.
• 41:52
  It's just not going to happen.
• 41:54
  But if you can flip that and you can come from the standpoint of my building or my property already requires and utilizes a lot of heat,
• 42:04
  right yeah bitcoin mining improve and or enhance what i'm already doing right the answer is yes
• 42:14
  in most cases and once you get to that yes then you can go to the kind of the second question
• 42:20
  and that second question is how should i think about how should i optimize this the first
• 42:26
  mode is I'm using the miner to heat the building, right? Water, hot air in the wintertime. You know,
• 42:36
  if you're, maybe if you're a hotel or an apartment property, you have jacuzzis or spas,
• 42:42
  right? Just, it depends on the property type. So first one is, can Bitcoin mining heat my building?
• 42:50
  Yes or no?
• 42:51
  The second option is, can I use Bitcoin mining to reduce my electrical expense, my heating expense, if not subsidizing?
• 43:02
  So now that's really exciting for commercial real estate because energy consumption in any given building is about 30% of your operating expenses.
• 43:13
  So if I can reduce that, that falls directly to my bottom line.
• 43:17
  It improves my NOI like that.
• 43:20
  That is meaningful for any commercial real estate property.
• 43:24
  The third option is I'm just going to mine to maximize my Bitcoin output.
• 43:31
  Most people are not going to fall into that third category, but it is there.
• 43:36
  So if you're in a colder climate, you have a bunch of solar panels on your building, you have good power loads, maybe that third option is a no-brainer for you.
• 43:47
  But again, most people won't fall into that. So if you can use Bitcoin mining to improve your HVAC systems that are already existing, you have just unlocked something incredibly powerful.
• 44:03
  because, again, you're reducing your expenses.
• 44:06
  You're potentially creating another income stream in certain scenarios.
• 44:11
  To one of your earlier questions, Jordan, there's a tax component
• 44:15
  because you can now depreciate that equipment.
• 44:18
  So there's a lot of second and third order benefits
• 44:24
  that come along with integrating mining into the mechanical systems.
• 44:29
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• 44:38
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• 44:59
  Yeah. And just a quick follow up on that, because I mean, you know, Tyler Stevens is a good friend of the pod. And, and I think you all know each other well. And I'm just curious on how you see the the overall like, vendor space, you know, an electrician or a plumber or the two of them needing to work together. In some cases, how do you how have you seen that rollout happening? And, you know, where if I'm in a, if I'm in Florida, and I want to implement this in a commercial building,
• 45:29
  or a residential building, you know, of course, I've got to call up the local plumber electrician.
• 45:35
  I'm curious how that process has been going, what you've seen in your experience with those folks.
• 45:41
  I got to give a shout out to Tyler because he, I mean, he has helped me refine this whole
• 45:50
  thought, everything I just said, my pitch I just gave you guys, that has Tyler Stevens written
• 45:55
  all over it. So thank you, Tyler. Exergy, what they're doing is absolutely fantastic. I mean,
• 46:02
  they're pioneering some really, really critical stuff in not only just the industrial heating
• 46:09
  space, but in the broader Bitcoin mining space as well. So shout out to those guys.
• 46:18
  There are two challenges that you're getting at here, and they're very real challenges.
• 46:23
  The first one is that there is a disconnect There a disconnect between the operator that has the Bitcoin mining and the technician So today if you using Bitcoin mining in your building and something goes out that HVAC technician that you going to call or that plumber you going to call they going to focus on the traditional system They not going to there no understanding of the the Bitcoin component whatsoever So you have to go into that with eyes wide open Again
• 46:58
  Exergy and their team are solving a lot of interesting challenges on that front.
• 47:03
  The other challenge that you're going to have day one is that because there's no formal
• 47:12
  specifications for this, it creates an issue with the planning and permitting component when you go
• 47:18
  to the city, right? And you don't necessarily have that in the residential space. I think that's why
• 47:23
  XRG and their team has focused on that particular vertical. Commercial is totally different.
• 47:30
  You do any kind of extensive either tenant improvement or capital improvement,
• 47:37
  the city's going to have their fingers in it in some way, shape, or form.
• 47:42
  You're going to have to get those plans approved and all that.
• 47:44
  So full transparency, there are some headwinds there.
• 47:49
  Now, if I'm going to look at this as the glass half full guy, which I am,
• 47:55
  I would say the opportunity here is for the private owners and investors.
• 48:03
  owners, right? Because this is not going to be the REITs, the publicly traded REITs that are
• 48:09
  going to do this. This is not going to be the institutional owners that pave the way here,
• 48:15
  because they're going to look at those two issues we just discussed, and they're going to be like,
• 48:19
  nope, not doing it. Can't do it if I wanted to, right? So that private demographic, that private
• 48:28
  group of owners, they're the ones that are going to be more willing to, dare I say, ask for
• 48:36
  forgiveness, not for permission. Right? And they're going to see the value. They're going to do it.
• 48:43
  Everything's already existing. They're going to say, hey, I'm going to plug a minor in. We're
• 48:48
  going to see how this works. And they're going to experiment. They're going to create a runway for
• 48:58
  themselves that will serve as an excellent competitive advantage on their properties,
• 49:04
  on their portfolio. Yeah. No, I love that. I mean, and it probably make a good case that it adds to
• 49:11
  the property value because I assume there's some amount of upfront investment like there is with
• 49:16
  anything, but adds to the property value. And if they ever wanted to go sell that, then they'd get
• 49:22
  their capital back at that point. So love to hear that you're doing that. I think that's really
• 49:26
  awesome. I think there was a question or part of that question was kind of like, how are people
• 49:32
  valuing it or how people are looking on it from the outside? I will tell you right now, if you're
• 49:37
  using the mining in any way, shape or form, if you're using digital credit products as a treasury
• 49:44
  component, I've called it digital rent. If you think you're going to add that income into your
• 49:50
  qualification process for your loan. Just don't. Your lender's not going to be as open-minded
• 49:58
  nor as excited as the three of us would be. So the property still has to stand on its own.
• 50:07
  You still have to underwrite it in a traditional way in the world we operate in today. Over time,
• 50:16
  will that change? Yes, hopefully. And that's another important piece here too, is we're not
• 50:23
  using these strategies to make a deal pencil. The deal has to pencil, it has to
• 50:30
  operate in the black on its own, full stop. Once you've checked that box, then you can go,
• 50:39
  okay, how can I optimize? How can I improve this? How can I turn this single purpose, monolithic,
• 50:47
  depreciating asset into this financial machine that has diversified income streams and
• 50:59
  optionality to navigate this digital transformation? Again, it's a multiple step process,
• 51:08
  But that's how you go about it.
• 51:12
  Yeah, that makes a ton of sense.
• 51:15
  And it's super exciting.
• 51:17
  Yeah, shout out XRG.
• 51:18
  I love the work they're doing.
• 51:20
  And to me, I mean, this gives me a ton of hope.
• 51:22
  You know, I do want to ask you a question about data centers, even though you said you explicitly don't work in there.
• 51:27
  But I can't resist.
• 51:29
  But to me, it just seems so obvious.
• 51:32
  You know, it's like this is okay.
• 51:34
  All the mega miners are transitioning to, you know, high performance compute.
• 51:39
  Oh, you know, is the network going to be less secure?
• 51:42
  It's like, no, the mining network is going to be more decentralized because people are, you know, guerrilla mining, if you will, you know, in their commercial property just because they want the heat or whatever.
• 51:51
  But I just curious if you know any guys that work in the data center space like you hear Chad or working in the industry how many of these things are actually getting improved and breaking ground and being completed I don have a hard number off the top of my head for you but what I can tell you is the
• 52:13
  development pipeline in the data center space is very robust across the entire country. Every MSA
• 52:20
  has some level of data center activity in progress, and they're across all different
• 52:27
  phases of that development pipeline.
• 52:32
  So we could actually believe like the headlines that a bunch of these things are getting built
• 52:37
  and turned on.
• 52:38
  Yes.
• 52:38
  Yes.
• 52:39
  Yeah.
• 52:40
  That demand is very, very real.
• 52:44
  The development activity is very, very real.
• 52:49
  You know, it doesn't happen overnight, right?
• 52:51
  To build, to construct some of these facilities is an 18-month process, sometimes more.
• 52:57
  the other bottleneck in the process is making sure you have enough power.
• 53:02
  So I think we're, you know, to your kind of where you were going with that question,
• 53:06
  I think we're at a part at a, at a phase in that development cycle where again,
• 53:13
  it's the hottest property type right now. And they're, you know,
• 53:17
  it's starting to become saturated with market participants and you're going,
• 53:22
  you have the, you have the experts, you have the specialists, the, the,
• 53:27
  the operators that really know what they're doing and you have everyone else, right?
• 53:32
  So, you know, if you're interacting with data centers or data center developers in any kind
• 53:40
  of way, you know, understanding who you're potentially partnering with, who you're getting
• 53:47
  in bed with, who you're doing deals with, understanding who they are, what their track
• 53:51
  record is, what are their credentials to build a data center is a critical, critical first step.
• 53:58
  Because if you get lazy, you don't vet them and understand, again, how qualified are they to do
• 54:05
  this type of development, that's when you run into the issues and all the downstream negative
• 54:13
  impacts that we've probably seen online or in the news feeds. So that's the way to mitigate
• 54:21
  that. Very nice. And I guess for our audience, you know, that ends, they end up dealing with
• 54:27
  high net worth, maybe they're on the investor, their clients on the investor side, or maybe it's
• 54:31
  a small business owner who's looking to integrate something like this into their building,
• 54:35
  or into their next build. Just maybe just speak to the advisor for a moment on when should they
• 54:44
  think of Chris to pick up the phone and say, hey, I've got I've got something I think is a good fit
• 54:50
  for you and your team to take a look at
• 54:53
  just so that the audience knows exactly
• 54:56
  the scenario to plan for?
• 55:00
  Yeah, most of the work that I'm doing
• 55:03
  is existing properties, existing portfolios.
• 55:07
  So everything's existing.
• 55:11
  So when you're ready to have a conversation
• 55:16
  about integrating Bitcoin technology, AI,
• 55:19
  into your properties and your property portfolios, I can help.
• 55:25
  So it's really when they're ready.
• 55:26
  If you're a developer and there's some different components
• 55:30
  and lead times to that, the sooner the better.
• 55:33
  I think there's some interesting opportunities for developers
• 55:36
  to integrate Bitcoin mining on the raw land
• 55:40
  while they're waiting for their entitlements to come through.
• 55:44
  but again that's that's still very very small sliver of you know where i've really been
• 55:52
  focusing my time and energy so it's family offices private investors that are they say hey
• 56:00
  we have these properties we see where the world is going i don't want to sell and incur those taxes
• 56:07
  right maybe it's my family business right it's a generational real estate family
• 56:12
  And you're never going to make any headway with them by telling them to exit their livelihood.
• 56:20
  So coming to them from the standpoint of we can improve the financial performance and the operational efficiencies in your existing assets, that's how you get there.
• 56:34
  So I guess there's not really a perfect time.
• 56:37
  It's just when they're ready to have that conversation, they recognize where the world is heading.
• 56:42
  And I mean, most of the real estate operators today, they feel the pain, right?
• 56:47
  Their expenses are rapidly outpacing their fixed rental escalations.
• 56:54
  There are much fewer marginal buyers when they go to exit the property.
• 57:00
  The operational needs of these assets are becoming much more demanding and difficult to navigate So there all these different angles to come at it from When I trying to orange pill a real estate person the easiest way and Wyatt I think I
• 57:24
  mentioned this to you before, it's the easiest way to open that door is, are your expenses outpacing
• 57:29
  your rental increases? Every single person says, yeah, it's killing me. And you say, oh man,
• 57:35
  that stinks, but guess what? I may have a solution for you. Doors open. Let's riff.
• 57:45
  Yeah. And I don't think it should be understated to the depreciation component. I think if you can
• 57:51
  align everything where, especially in the examples you gave, where, hey, we can help subsidize your
• 57:58
  electricity bill and create these assets on the balance sheet that are now going to be able to
• 58:04
  be bonus depreciated against the free cash flow that hits the taxable income line.
• 58:11
  I just think that that can be a huge component. So I just want to say that out loud for
• 58:15
  specifically any of the tax advisors that are listening to this that have commercial real estate
• 58:19
  property owners as clients. I think that that's a very interesting piece, especially if you've
• 58:24
  already done the cost seg studies and you've kind of squeezed all the juice out of that orange.
• 58:30
  here's another avenue to create even more depreciation.
• 58:35
  Well said.
• 58:36
  It's incredibly powerful and it's there.
• 58:40
  So use it, right?
• 58:41
  Yeah.
• 58:42
  You said something really important there, Jordan.
• 58:44
  That was the juice has been squeezed, right?
• 58:47
  I love saying that comment because I truly believe it.
• 58:54
  A lot of these, and this actually kind of dovetails with your question, Wyatt,
• 58:59
  a few minutes back on some of the metrics we've been creating to evaluate it from a Bitcoin
• 59:05
  standpoint. But taking a step back, there's approximately 97 billion square feet of commercial
• 59:13
  property in the United States. That's all the major food groups, office, industrial, retail,
• 59:19
  apartments, self-storage. So approximately 62% of that was built before 1990.
• 59:29
  That's a problem because those properties are functionally and economically obsolete in the
• 59:38
  21st century, going into the 2030s, right? In the age of remote work, in the age of AI,
• 59:45
  in the age of superior monetary technology, right?
• 59:49
  I can go down each of those property types
• 59:52
  and tell you where the obsolete components are, right?
• 59:59
  So if you are a property owner today
• 1:00:04
  and you have a portfolio or you have a property,
• 1:00:06
  I would tell you to sit down with your advisors
• 1:00:09
  and have a really, really honest,
• 1:00:12
  objective assessment of what you own, right? If you own a bunch of properties that were built in
• 1:00:18
  the seventies, they have 50 layers of paint on them. They got shallow bay depths. There's a poor
• 1:00:24
  window line. There's no power. You know, the floor slabs are not up to today's standards,
• 1:00:30
  whatever it is, you probably want to divest. And in that scenario, it's not about maximizing value,
• 1:00:39
  In that scenario, it's about getting out of the illiquid asset because the liquidity and the equity that you have incurred over the last, whatever the holding period was, 10, 20, 30 years, that has a lot more value to you than holding out for the highest and best sale price.
• 1:00:56
  Get out of it.
• 1:00:57
  Because it doesn't matter if you integrate mining.
• 1:01:00
  It doesn't matter if you put solar on it.
• 1:01:02
  It doesn't matter if you refinance and do a Bitcoin loan on it.
• 1:01:06
  those things are not going to help you achieve the highest rents in the market.
• 1:01:13
  There's going to be a ceiling that you're going to hit.
• 1:01:17
  So don't throw good money after bad.
• 1:01:21
  So look at your holdings and designate the properties that you consider core.
• 1:01:29
  What are the cherry assets that you guys own?
• 1:01:32
  Keep those.
• 1:01:32
  integrate the Bitcoin strategies on those primary assets and dispose of everything else.
• 1:01:40
  Because again, that liquidity, that equity you've built up over time is a lot more valuable to you
• 1:01:46
  than being stuck inside of some illiquid depreciating asset.
• 1:01:52
  And I mean, I'm sure you see it too, you know, in both of your businesses, right?
• 1:01:55
  Like people are just terrified of selling anything because they don't want to pay Uncle Sam.
• 1:02:01
  Yeah.
• 1:02:01
  It's like, we need to step back and look at the entire playing field here.
• 1:02:07
  You bought this thing for $50 a foot.
• 1:02:10
  You're going to sell it for $400 a foot.
• 1:02:14
  Good job.
• 1:02:15
  You're right.
• 1:02:16
  You killed it.
• 1:02:18
  Sell the thing, pay your capital gains, and now go put the remaining into an asset that is compounding at 30% a year.
• 1:02:29
  Right? That opportunity cost conversation is something that I think real estate people are really missing. So the last thing I'll say on this topic is the one of the metrics I've created and been using to evaluate the properties that you decide to keep. And that is Satoshi's per square foot.
• 1:02:51
  And the way that I look at it is after all of your expenses are paid, your free cash flow, what is the remaining amount that can be converted to Bitcoin?
• 1:03:05
  It doesn't have to be 100%.
• 1:03:07
  Maybe for your situation, it's 25%.
• 1:03:10
  But at least as an owner, you can assess your holdings from a Bitcoin lens and say, okay, this property produces X sats per square foot, and you're able to compare it on a per square foot basis.
• 1:03:28
  That is super helpful for various comparison purposes and understanding how much economic energy the asset is able to produce.
• 1:03:37
  Yeah.
• 1:03:38
  Yeah.
• 1:03:39
  Well, and Chris, I'd be remiss.
• 1:03:42
  I was talking to a mutual friend of ours who's doing some similar work and we were talking
• 1:03:47
  about Satoshi's per square foot and they're actually proposing digital density.
• 1:03:51
  So if you do a 1041 and you have a different square foot metric you can stay consistent and using total equity as the denominator as opposed to square feet So you want to clear the record there
• 1:04:07
  Who's right?
• 1:04:10
  I don't think anybody's right.
• 1:04:12
  I'm just excited to know that there are other folks out there thinking about this in that
• 1:04:20
  same way and are trying to apply different lenses to it because it's incredibly important.
• 1:04:29
  Totally.
• 1:04:30
  And I think when he first shared the digital density component with me and walked me through
• 1:04:37
  how he was calculating it, all of that, I was like, okay, I think there's something
• 1:04:41
  here.
• 1:04:42
  This is really interesting.
• 1:04:45
  It is, man.
• 1:04:46
  And you're a wealth of knowledge.
• 1:04:48
  Thank you for sharing it with us and our audience.
• 1:04:52
  I'm super pumped to have you come back to the space here in October.
• 1:04:56
  Appreciate you sharing your time with us.
• 1:05:00
  We kind of got reverse roles here today.
• 1:05:02
  I'm wearing glasses.
• 1:05:03
  Jordan's not.
• 1:05:04
  Usually he finishes up the pod.
• 1:05:06
  I'm finishing it up today.
• 1:05:07
  I was not one to step on your toes, Wyatt.
• 1:05:10
  I appreciate that.
• 1:05:12
  They hurt from when you normally step on them.
• 1:05:15
  But do you have any final questions here?
• 1:05:18
  No I think this has been great I learned a lot and there a lot to chew on and especially going back to the client list and and thinking through who are some clients that this could apply to I think that every advisor you know if you proactive and trying to think about the future for your clients I think listening into these conversations
• 1:05:38
  and going back to your desk and saying,
• 1:05:41
  how could this work well for X client?
• 1:05:44
  I think that that's what I would,
• 1:05:46
  the call to action that I would have
• 1:05:47
  for all the listeners
• 1:05:49
  as they consider what they learned today.
• 1:05:51
  So really appreciate it, Chris.
• 1:05:54
  Absolutely.
• 1:05:55
  And Chris, where can folks find you?
• 1:05:58
  Um, but X is probably the best X and LinkedIn. Um, my, my handle on X is Chris Driz, uh, D R Z.
• 1:06:07
  I figured I'd spare everybody on the, on the other consonants there, but, uh, you can find me on, uh,
• 1:06:12
  X DM me. Um, you can find me on LinkedIn DM me, uh, happy to chat and just, um, yeah, chat on all
• 1:06:20
  of this. And if you find my social media pages, you can pretty much find me everywhere else on,
• 1:06:26
  on the internet. I got my website, chrisdrizga.com as well. I've been starting to add more of this
• 1:06:36
  Bitcoin real estate content to that. So that's getting built out in real time and that's it.
• 1:06:45
  And go listen to the Real Estate Standard podcast as well. So it's on my to-do list now.
• 1:06:51
  We got to have you Wyatt was on a few weeks back We got to have you come on Jordan and take it from the tax depreciation angle I think there so much low hanging fruit and opportunity for people to capture from that standpoint I love that Very cool Well appreciate your time man
• 1:07:14
  Thanks for having me. This is awesome. And I'm looking forward to seeing you guys in October.
• 1:07:19
  Thanks, Chris. Chat soon. See you guys.
• 1:07:23
  We appreciate you joining us.
• 1:07:30
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• 1:07:40
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• 1:07:53
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• 1:08:00
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• 1:08:03
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• 1:08:08
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• 1:08:23
  Thank you.