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The Parable of the Unforgiving Servant: the Debt Mindset · Rick Manis Ministries Podcast

• 0:00
  SPEAKER_00: I want to start out tonight looking at uh Romans chapter 4.
• 0:04
  SPEAKER_00: There's a there's a verse here that I want to look at that'll set the tone for for everything that I'm saying tonight.
• 0:10
  SPEAKER_00: And uh there again, this is something that every Christian has got to get or should get, so should should get down.
• 0:23
  SPEAKER_00: This this really needs to be foundational.
• 0:25
  SPEAKER_00: I find that in my in my in my travels and in my experience and counseling with people and that it's not, it doesn't seem to be foundational in so much of our uh Christianity in the in the world today.
• 0:37
  SPEAKER_00: But it it should be.
• 0:38
  SPEAKER_00: It's it's it's it's biblical, foundational, that foundational to our salvation, to the goodness, the grace, the the love of God that was uh shown when when uh uh you know the Lord came and died on the cross and rose again.
• 0:53
  SPEAKER_00: And uh it's there's a I love how verse four of chapter four, how Paul says this.
• 1:00
  SPEAKER_00: He says it so, so plainly and clear, and this will set the tone for what we're looking at tonight.
• 1:04
  SPEAKER_00: Verse 4.
• 1:06
  SPEAKER_00: Now to him who works, the wages are not counted as grace, but as debt.
• 1:11
  SPEAKER_00: Now, of course, he's talking about the difference between, you know, works and grace, obviously.
• 1:17
  SPEAKER_00: Uh you know, a man's not saved by works of righteousness, a man's not blessed because he's good enough, because he does enough good things, but it's always, always the goodness, the grace, the love of God.
• 1:27
  SPEAKER_00: And so Paul is talking about that.
• 1:29
  SPEAKER_00: In fact, before this, he mentions Abraham, and he talks about he found a righteousness that didn't come from anything that he did, but he believed God, and it was counted to him for righteousness.
• 1:38
  SPEAKER_00: So he says here in verse 4, now to him who works, if you work for it, then the wages are not counted as grace, but it's counted as debt.
• 1:49
  SPEAKER_00: Grace or debt, grace or debt.
• 1:52
  SPEAKER_00: Now these two things will be one or the other, will be foundational to your relationship with the Lord.
• 2:00
  SPEAKER_00: Grace or debt.
• 2:02
  SPEAKER_00: And I want to show you a picture of that by looking at a parable that Jesus taught in in Matthew chapter 18.
• 2:09
  SPEAKER_00: So if you can flip over there real quick, we'll read this parable.
• 2:14
  SPEAKER_00: And uh we're gonna have fun with this because it's there is so much in here.
• 2:21
  SPEAKER_00: There is there line upon line, there is so much foundational truth here, and it's something that's overlooked so often.
• 2:29
  SPEAKER_00: In fact, it's very it's a very misunderstood parable.
• 2:34
  SPEAKER_00: I've heard of one guy, he preached this parable, and he came up with what Jesus was in effect saying was that if you don't forgive, uh, if you don't forgive everybody tonight, then you're on your way to hell.
• 2:44
  SPEAKER_00: Well, that's not the message Jesus was teaching here at all, but that's the message that somebody got out of it.
• 2:50
  SPEAKER_00: So we want to look at it very plainly and clearly, and and and remember as we read this, we're talking about the difference between a relationship with the Lord that's founded on debt or it's founded on grace.
• 3:04
  SPEAKER_00: Uh very simply, a relation that's founded on debt simply means that you owe.
• 3:09
  SPEAKER_00: That's why a lot of times in church we hear things like, well, you know, God's done this for us, so we owe him that.
• 3:17
  SPEAKER_00: Now that sounds very nice, it sounds very good, it sounds benign, and we're willing to do whatever usually, so we just we just embrace that, but honestly, it's very subtle and deceptive because it speaks of a debt.
• 3:31
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, you know, uh, God demands this from us.
• 3:37
  SPEAKER_00: That means that we owe it.
• 3:39
  SPEAKER_00: And Paul says, it's not of it's it's not of it's not of debt, it's of grace.
• 3:44
  SPEAKER_00: And so uh we see Jesus give a good picture of that here in chapter 18, beginning in verse 21.
• 3:50
  SPEAKER_00: Peter comes to Jesus, he approaches Jesus with this question.
• 3:54
  SPEAKER_00: And Peter came to him and said, Lord, how often shall my brother sin against me and I forgive him?
• 3:59
  SPEAKER_00: Up to seven times?
• 4:01
  SPEAKER_00: Now, now Peter thinks he's being outrageous here.
• 4:04
  SPEAKER_00: Should I forgive him seven times?
• 4:06
  SPEAKER_00: He thinks he's throwing this big number out there.
• 4:08
  SPEAKER_00: And and if you don't think that's a big number, uh, you know, I can I could I in fact I couldn't tell you all the times that I've run into people and dealt with people, talked with people, counseled people that had trouble forgiving somebody even one time, because it they were hurt so bad by it by by someone or by something that they they had they couldn't get over it, you know, one time, just once.
• 4:28
  SPEAKER_00: And here's Peter saying, How many times must I forgive somebody?
• 4:31
  SPEAKER_00: In other words, so I forgive him and he does it again, and do I forgive him again, and then he does it again, do I forgive him again, and then again, and then again and again?
• 4:38
  SPEAKER_00: And he's like, come, and what he's doing is like what logical people will do is saying, Come on, Jesus, there's got to be a responsible logical boundary to this thing that you're talking about.
• 4:49
  SPEAKER_00: I know you're about mercy and forgiveness and love, and I hear all your teachings, but where is the where is the logical boundary on this thing?
• 4:56
  SPEAKER_00: How far do we really take this?
• 4:58
  SPEAKER_00: And uh now understand as we read this parable, and this will help you to remember so much of what Jesus teaches in the Gospels.
• 5:10
  SPEAKER_00: Jesus was not talking to the church.
• 5:15
  SPEAKER_00: By that I mean he wasn't talking to born-again spiritual people in this particular story setting.
• 5:21
  SPEAKER_00: He was talking to these disciples who, though they were chosen by him, they were not born again.
• 5:27
  SPEAKER_00: They had not received the Spirit.
• 5:29
  SPEAKER_00: They misunderstood everything that Jesus was saying, it seemed, because of that very reason.
• 5:33
  SPEAKER_00: He said, But when the Spirit comes, he'll show you these things.
• 5:36
  SPEAKER_00: He'll teach you all these things.
• 5:38
  SPEAKER_00: So Jesus would talk these things, but they weren't getting it.
• 5:41
  SPEAKER_00: And so he would use these parables and he would he would talk on a level where they could where they could grasp it.
• 5:47
  SPEAKER_00: Remember, even Paul, even with one of the churches in a Corinthian church, you know, he says, you know, I've I've talked to you about carnal things because you're still carnal and you're not spiritual.
• 5:57
  SPEAKER_00: I'd like to talk to you like you're spiritual, but you're yet carnal.
• 6:01
  SPEAKER_00: So what does he do?
• 6:02
  SPEAKER_00: You know, lie not one to another.
• 6:04
  SPEAKER_00: Let him that stole steal no more.
• 6:06
  SPEAKER_00: You know, he's talking in just just just just uh moral, fleshly terms here.
• 6:14
  SPEAKER_00: Jesus, in in telling these stories, he's talking to people that are, for one thing, they are religious.
• 6:21
  SPEAKER_00: They are of the Jewish religion.
• 6:23
  SPEAKER_00: They are, and and therefore being that way, they are law-minded.
• 6:28
  SPEAKER_00: They're not grace-minded.
• 6:29
  SPEAKER_00: That's why they were like, who can be saved if that's if they I don't get that.
• 6:35
  SPEAKER_00: They're law-minded because that's their religion.
• 6:39
  SPEAKER_00: And being law-minded, they also were debt-minded.
• 6:42
  SPEAKER_00: In other words, the way they related to God was that God had this standard that was demanded.
• 6:48
  SPEAKER_00: It's the law.
• 6:49
  SPEAKER_00: And obviously, in their mind, we're all expected by God to live up to that law, to that standard.
• 6:59
  SPEAKER_00: Of course, we know in the New Covenant, after Jesus did his work, death, burial, and resurrection, Paul comes along and explains all this stuff so well, and he goes to Romans 8, and he says, But what the law could not do, because our flesh was too weak to do it, God did by sending his own son in the likeness of our sinful flesh, and he and and so that the righteous requirement of that law, whatever was owed, that the righteous requirement of that law would be fulfilled, and it would be fulfilled in us.
• 7:28
  SPEAKER_00: So there would be no debt.
• 7:32
  SPEAKER_00: But he's talking to people that are debt-minded.
• 7:34
  SPEAKER_00: He's talking to people, the only way that they can relate to God, they haven't been taught, you know, Jesus is introducing this whole thing here.
• 7:40
  SPEAKER_00: John chapter 1 said, No man had seen God at any time, but Jesus, who is in the bosom of the Father, he has revealed the Father to us.
• 7:48
  SPEAKER_00: So what Jesus is revealing to us is this God who is love, and he is so loving that he's actually loves the whole world while they're yet sinners that he's willing to die this death for the whole world.
• 8:01
  SPEAKER_00: Willing to take on the sins of the whole man, willing to take on the debt himself.
• 8:06
  SPEAKER_00: That's love, that's mercy, that's grace.
• 8:10
  SPEAKER_00: Um, this is a concept that they don't get.
• 8:13
  SPEAKER_00: They don't know about this.
• 8:14
  SPEAKER_00: They don't know about God paying the debt.
• 8:17
  SPEAKER_00: All they know is about them, that they're expected to pay the debt, that they're expected to fulfill it, they're expected to live up to it.
• 8:24
  SPEAKER_00: And knowing that, we read the story.
• 8:26
  SPEAKER_00: So Peter says, So how many times should I forgive?
• 8:28
  SPEAKER_00: Someone, seven times.
• 8:30
  SPEAKER_00: In verse 22, Jesus says, No, come on.
• 8:34
  SPEAKER_00: I didn't say seven times.
• 8:36
  SPEAKER_00: How about seven times seventy?
• 8:39
  SPEAKER_00: How about 490 times?
• 8:41
  SPEAKER_00: Now Peter thinks he's being outrageous by throwing out seven, and Jesus gets even bigger and he says, How about seven times seventy?
• 8:48
  SPEAKER_00: And they're just like, that just blows me away.
• 8:51
  SPEAKER_00: You know, that's ridiculous.
• 8:52
  SPEAKER_00: Who can do that?
• 8:54
  SPEAKER_00: He says, Well, therefore, then the next verse 23, he says, therefore, which means that's why.
• 9:01
  SPEAKER_00: That's why the kingdom of heaven, or that's why I'm telling you, that the kingdom of heaven is like a certain king who wanted to settle accounts with his servants.
• 9:09
  SPEAKER_00: Now, this king sort of being playing in the role of the of the heavenly father here in this story.
• 9:14
  SPEAKER_00: Um, he says, this king wanted to settle accounts.
• 9:17
  SPEAKER_00: Aren't you glad that God wanted to settle accounts?
• 9:19
  SPEAKER_00: And aren't you glad that he did settle accounts?
• 9:22
  SPEAKER_00: How did he settle accounts?
• 9:24
  SPEAKER_00: By you paying what you owed or by him paying what we owed?
• 9:29
  SPEAKER_00: Right?
• 9:30
  SPEAKER_00: He settled accounts and he zeroed it out, didn't he?
• 9:33
  SPEAKER_00: You believe that?
• 9:34
  SPEAKER_00: You believe that all debts are canceled?
• 9:37
  SPEAKER_00: Huh?
• 9:37
  SPEAKER_00: Spiritual debts.
• 9:39
  SPEAKER_00: He says, He says, See, there was a certain king who wanted to settle accounts with his servants.
• 9:44
  SPEAKER_00: And we when he began to settle accounts, one was brought to him who owed him 10,000 talents.
• 9:49
  SPEAKER_00: But as he was not able to pay, his master commanded that he be sold and his wife and children and all that he had, and that the payment be made.
• 9:55
  SPEAKER_00: Now, we've got to pause just a moment.
• 9:58
  SPEAKER_00: Because what often happens when we read these stories is we miss the significance of what's being said here.
• 10:05
  SPEAKER_00: Jesus said, This guy owed his master 10,000 talents.
• 10:11
  SPEAKER_00: Just do a little study and commentaries and things.
• 10:14
  SPEAKER_00: And essentially you'll see that a talent, if it's a silver talent, not a gold talent.
• 10:20
  SPEAKER_00: A silver talent.
• 10:24
  SPEAKER_00: I don't know what the the poundage is, but it's worth in today's money about sixteen thousand five hundred uh dollars.
• 10:30
  SPEAKER_00: In fact, they would have a coin called a talent.
• 10:33
  SPEAKER_00: Um but but if it's a gold talent, it was like 1.5 million.
• 10:38
  SPEAKER_00: So 10,000 times, I mean, we'll deal with silver.
• 10:41
  SPEAKER_00: That's probably what it what they were talking about anyway.
• 10:44
  SPEAKER_00: $16,500, let's say, for one talent.
• 10:48
  SPEAKER_00: He doesn't owe$16,500.
• 10:51
  SPEAKER_00: He owes$10,000 talents, which would be like$165 million.
• 10:57
  SPEAKER_00: He owes$165 million.
• 11:03
  SPEAKER_00: Huh?
• 11:03
  SPEAKER_00: $165 million.
• 11:11
  SPEAKER_00: I've been late on the mortgage before.
• 11:13
  SPEAKER_00: I think that's hell.
• 11:15
  SPEAKER_00: Huh?
• 11:16
  SPEAKER_00: I've had credit card debt of you know, of thousands of dollars, but a hundred and sixty-five million dollars.
• 11:25
  SPEAKER_00: Now think about how this goes.
• 11:27
  SPEAKER_00: When you're dealing with that kind of money, whether he's embezzled or stole or, you know, or just made bad investments or whatever, he's he knows he's in trouble.
• 11:37
  SPEAKER_00: He knows that at some point his master is gonna come to take an account.
• 11:42
  SPEAKER_00: He's gonna call him and want to look at the books.
• 11:46
  SPEAKER_00: And he's probably waking up every day thinking, man, I've got to hustle.
• 11:49
  SPEAKER_00: He says, I hope he sure doesn't call me, call, you know, call me to the office today and you know, look at the books today, because I, you know, I got to get this right.
• 11:55
  SPEAKER_00: And he's hustling, he's moving accounts and doing, he's doing all, he's doing whatever he can to try to get this right because he knows that he that he's going to have to present his book sometime.
• 12:05
  SPEAKER_00: He doesn't know when.
• 12:07
  SPEAKER_00: But the day comes when the king says, Bring all the servants in, all those that have been handling my money, and he says, Let's see where we're at.
• 12:15
  SPEAKER_00: And he brings this one in and he looks at his book, and you know, this guy knows he's in trouble.
• 12:20
  SPEAKER_00: And him and his accountants are looking over this stuff, and they're like, and here they're like$165 million gone.
• 12:30
  SPEAKER_00: And this guy, you can just imagine what I don't have, I can't imagine what he's thinking.
• 12:35
  SPEAKER_00: But he knows he's in deep trouble here.
• 12:37
  SPEAKER_00: He can't pay this.
• 12:39
  SPEAKER_00: So the king looks at him and says, Where's it at?
• 12:41
  SPEAKER_00: And he says, I don't have it.
• 12:44
  SPEAKER_00: He says, Well, I'm gonna get something out of this.
• 12:46
  SPEAKER_00: He said, He says, So here's what we're gonna do.
• 12:48
  SPEAKER_00: We're gonna sell you as a slave, and I'm gonna sell your wife, and I'm gonna sell your house and all your possessions.
• 12:53
  SPEAKER_00: He says, and I'm gonna sell all that, and I'm gonna take all of that.
• 12:57
  SPEAKER_00: And he said, you know, that's how I'm gonna get my debt paid, or at least as much as I can.
• 13:02
  SPEAKER_00: And the guy's but the guy says, wait a minute.
• 13:05
  SPEAKER_00: He says, he begs him for mercy.
• 13:08
  SPEAKER_00: He says in verse 20 uh 26 The servant therefore fell down before him and said, Master, have patience with me, and I will pay you all.
• 13:19
  SPEAKER_00: Now, how would you relate to this?
• 13:24
  SPEAKER_00: How do Christians relate to this?
• 13:25
  SPEAKER_00: Well, I'll just tell you for myself, I can relate to this.
• 13:29
  SPEAKER_00: Because I'm this guy that would that that felt like I was so much in debt, had so failed God, had not lived up to what He He wanted me responsible for.
• 13:42
  SPEAKER_00: And I would say, and I would think, say, God, just give me another chance.
• 13:45
  SPEAKER_00: I'm gonna get this right.
• 13:47
  SPEAKER_00: You know, you just give me time.
• 13:48
  SPEAKER_00: I'm gonna I'm gonna be what you want me to be.
• 13:51
  SPEAKER_00: I'm gonna kick this habit.
• 13:53
  SPEAKER_00: I'm gonna start doing this better.
• 13:56
  SPEAKER_00: I know I I know I said it before, but this time I mean it, God.
• 13:59
  SPEAKER_00: I mean it.
• 14:00
  SPEAKER_00: I can do this.
• 14:01
  SPEAKER_00: Um I mean it.
• 14:02
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, you know, I thought I meant it before, Lord, but but this time I really mean it because you don't know.
• 14:06
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, I can I'm strong, I can just buckle down more.
• 14:10
  SPEAKER_00: I can be better.
• 14:13
  SPEAKER_00: You ever felt anything like that at all?
• 14:16
  SPEAKER_00: What is that?
• 14:16
  SPEAKER_00: Number one, it's a confidence in your flesh, and this guy's got it because he thinks he can pay that debt.
• 14:23
  SPEAKER_00: And it's also a debt mentality, which is the big problem.
• 14:28
  SPEAKER_00: But he's got not just a debt mentality, he's got a debt.
• 14:32
  SPEAKER_00: And he's thinking and he's and and and and and and rather than just like, all right, I'll just go ahead and pay the piper, go ahead and sell me as a slave, so let's get this over with, you know, and that'll at least that'll clear the books, and I'll have to be a slave, and I'll lose my wife and I'll lose everything, but at least I won't owe this king 165 million dollars.
• 14:50
  SPEAKER_00: But he says, give me more time, I can do this, I will pay you.
• 14:54
  SPEAKER_00: Now, you know, this king, you know, I heard a man say, you know, people don't get rich by being stupid.
• 15:00
  SPEAKER_00: This king knows some things, and he's like, No, he's he's like, you've had plenty of time to make it right.
• 15:07
  SPEAKER_00: You know, if I give you more time, you might you'll probably just go deeper in the hole.
• 15:12
  SPEAKER_00: We've seen what you can do.
• 15:14
  SPEAKER_00: But he believes.
• 15:16
  SPEAKER_00: No, I can I can get I can be stronger, I can, I can, I can, I can focus, I can do this.
• 15:24
  SPEAKER_00: I used to think that I grew as a Christian by vowing to God that I was gonna change.
• 15:30
  SPEAKER_00: He says, Give me more time, I'll pay it off.
• 15:34
  SPEAKER_00: The master listens to him and he doesn't take the deal.
• 15:38
  SPEAKER_00: He says, No, here's what we're gonna do.
• 15:41
  SPEAKER_00: Talks to his accountant, he zero out his account, he says, We're forgiving the whole debt.
• 15:45
  SPEAKER_00: We're just gonna we're just gonna go with a blank select now.
• 15:47
  SPEAKER_00: We're going to cancel the debt, we're gonna we're gonna start you off at zero right now.
• 15:52
  SPEAKER_00: You don't owe me anything.
• 15:55
  SPEAKER_00: We don't have to be a slave, don't have to lose your wife, don't have to lose all your possessions.
• 16:00
  SPEAKER_00: He had mercy and he zeroed out the account.
• 16:04
  SPEAKER_00: And I love that Jesus used such a big, outrageous amount of money.
• 16:10
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and yeah, and and and and it gives us it, it kind of gives you a better picture of your salvation, for one thing.
• 16:17
  SPEAKER_00: Such a great salvation of how much he really, how merciful he really has been to us.
• 16:24
  SPEAKER_00: And he says, So the master was moved with compassion, he released him and he forgave the debt.
• 16:31
  SPEAKER_00: Can you imagine how good that I feel?
• 16:34
  SPEAKER_00: Can you try to put yourself in the guy's shoes?
• 16:36
  SPEAKER_00: But you walk out of that office and you got your books under your arm and you're looking at it, and it says zero.
• 16:43
  SPEAKER_00: There's no red, you're not, you're not in debt, you're not in the red, you owe absolutely nothing.
• 16:47
  SPEAKER_00: Shoot, he can go to the bank, yeah.
• 16:48
  SPEAKER_00: He's he don't owe any, he's not in debt.
• 16:52
  SPEAKER_00: He can do anything he wants now.
• 16:55
  SPEAKER_00: It's like it never happened.
• 16:58
  SPEAKER_00: Debt's canceled.
• 17:00
  SPEAKER_00: He walks out of there, and it says verse 29, and that servant went out, and he found one of his fellow servants and who owed him a hundred denarii, and he laid hands on him and took him by the throat, and he said, You pay me what you owe.
• 17:13
  SPEAKER_00: So his fellow servant fell down at his feet and begged him, saying, Well, have patience with me, I'll pay you all.
• 17:18
  SPEAKER_00: Said the same thing he said.
• 17:20
  SPEAKER_00: Now, a hundred denarius.
• 17:24
  SPEAKER_00: A denarius, a little harder to figure, but it but it's commonly known as a day's wages.
• 17:29
  SPEAKER_00: The coin was a penny in Jesus' day, but it was it's a term used for a day's wage.
• 17:34
  SPEAKER_00: Common a day laborer worked for one denarius, worked all day.
• 17:37
  SPEAKER_00: A Jewish day laborer worked six days a week.
• 17:40
  SPEAKER_00: Uh take out a couple of two or three weeks for Jewish holidays or whatever.
• 17:45
  SPEAKER_00: Uh 300, a little over 300 days a year he worked.
• 17:50
  SPEAKER_00: 300 days a year, let's say.
• 17:53
  SPEAKER_00: A denarius is about a third of a year's wages.
• 17:56
  SPEAKER_00: A hundred.
• 17:57
  SPEAKER_00: Let's say he makes 300 denarius in a year.
• 18:01
  SPEAKER_00: If he works 20 years, no, he'd have to pay work 60 years.
• 18:13
  SPEAKER_00: 60 years to pay off one talent.
• 18:18
  SPEAKER_00: If this guy even tries to work it off that way, he can go after 20 years and say, here you go, I'm working on that debt.
• 18:26
  SPEAKER_00: That's one talent.
• 18:27
  SPEAKER_00: You got 999, 9,999 to go.
• 18:32
  SPEAKER_00: About 200,000 years, you'll get it done.
• 18:35
  SPEAKER_00: This is how extreme the debt was.
• 18:38
  SPEAKER_00: Why did he go out and do that?
• 18:40
  SPEAKER_00: I'm totally convinced that because I know how it works and I know what I've seen in my Christian brothers and sisters who have been forgiven this debt.
• 18:50
  SPEAKER_00: Every single one of them.
• 18:53
  SPEAKER_00: And they'll even tell me that they've been forgiven.
• 18:55
  SPEAKER_00: If you ask that man, what did the king do to you?
• 18:57
  SPEAKER_00: He'll he'll tell everybody, he said, He forgave me the debt.
• 19:00
  SPEAKER_00: But he's acting like he's not forgiven.
• 19:02
  SPEAKER_00: Now remember, Jesus is telling a parable in response to Peter's question about forgiveness.
• 19:10
  SPEAKER_00: And he's telling a story about a man who's been forgiven, but he's acting like he's not forgiven.
• 19:16
  SPEAKER_00: He's still got a debt mentality, and I'll tell you why I know.
• 19:20
  SPEAKER_00: Because people that, it's only people that have a debt mentality that demand debts of other people.
• 19:26
  SPEAKER_00: As a young minister, I was I was that way often.
• 19:29
  SPEAKER_00: As a young minister, I was the the one that was that was that owed God something.
• 19:33
  SPEAKER_00: That I that that that that there was a standard that I was trying to live up to.
• 19:37
  SPEAKER_00: There were things that I owed God that I was supposed to do, there were things that I ought to do that I should do.
• 19:43
  SPEAKER_00: Good things, good things, right things.
• 19:50
  SPEAKER_00: But I was too weak to pay it.
• 19:52
  SPEAKER_00: I thought I could.
• 19:53
  SPEAKER_00: I was excited about trying.
• 19:56
  SPEAKER_00: In fact, as a young pastor, I had behind my pulpit, I had a banner on the wall over here, said count the cost and pay the price.
• 20:02
  SPEAKER_00: And I was trying to inspire me and everybody else to count the cost and pay that price.
• 20:06
  SPEAKER_00: Come on, let's do what it takes to get the blessing of God.
• 20:09
  SPEAKER_00: Let's do what it takes to get the favor.
• 20:11
  SPEAKER_00: Let's do what it takes to get the get the anointing.
• 20:14
  SPEAKER_00: That sounds really good, but my mentality meant that I was in debt.
• 20:18
  SPEAKER_00: To do what it takes meant that I owed something in order to get it.
• 20:23
  SPEAKER_00: Does that make sense to you?
• 20:24
  unknown: Yes, sir.
• 20:27
  SPEAKER_00: And the end result wouldn't have been so bad.
• 20:31
  SPEAKER_00: It was the good things.
• 20:32
  SPEAKER_00: And here's where, where's here's where I here's where most all of my me and my Christian brothers and sisters uh that teach the Word of God agree.
• 20:39
  SPEAKER_00: That there are things that we are called to do and live in this world.
• 20:44
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, simple, there's so many things like we are called, I do believe that we are called to live a godly life.
• 20:50
  SPEAKER_00: By that I mean I believe that we are to shine as lights so people could see our good works and glorify our Father which is in heaven.
• 20:57
  SPEAKER_00: I believe we are to be exemplary.
• 20:58
  SPEAKER_00: I believe that we are to shine as lights in a dark, uh in a dark generation.
• 21:03
  SPEAKER_00: I believe that we are to glorify God with our lives and our lifestyles.
• 21:08
  SPEAKER_00: I believe, and so do they.
• 21:10
  SPEAKER_00: Somehow, because I preach so much love and grace, they think I don't believe in that stuff.
• 21:13
  SPEAKER_00: No, we all believe in it.
• 21:15
  SPEAKER_00: The difference is they believe in getting there by promoting a debt is how is how they're going to inspire people to get there.
• 21:23
  SPEAKER_00: And I believe that I inspire people by preaching a canceled debt, no debt.
• 21:30
  SPEAKER_00: Give you an example.
• 21:34
  SPEAKER_00: I'm called by God, I've been doing this since 1981.
• 21:39
  SPEAKER_00: Full time since 1984.
• 21:43
  SPEAKER_00: Full time position in ministry, in pulpit.
• 21:47
  SPEAKER_00: I've been preaching the word for 37 years.
• 21:51
  SPEAKER_00: I I'm called to do this.
• 21:53
  SPEAKER_00: This is what I do.
• 21:55
  SPEAKER_00: I got side hustles and things, but really, this is my main.
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_00: Thing.
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_00: This is what I do in life.
• 22:02
  SPEAKER_00: I'm called by God to do it.
• 22:04
  SPEAKER_00: It's what God likes me to do, what God wants me to do, if you will, and I do it.
• 22:11
  SPEAKER_00: But I don't do it out of debt.
• 22:13
  SPEAKER_00: It never once occurs to me that I have to do this.
• 22:16
  SPEAKER_00: It never once occurs to me that I better do this.
• 22:21
  SPEAKER_00: In fact, I believe I know God in a way today that if I were to walk away from it, if I just said, I don't want to do that anymore.
• 22:30
  SPEAKER_00: And I went off and I made something else my main thing.
• 22:33
  SPEAKER_00: That God would still love me, that I would still be blessed because the blessing's already been given.
• 22:39
  SPEAKER_00: I would still have favor because the favor didn't come because I'm doing this, the favor came because of Jesus.
• 22:45
  SPEAKER_00: I would still have everything and wouldn't lose any of it because it doesn't come because of what I do, because I don't owe a debt.
• 22:53
  SPEAKER_00: I don't pay a debt to get that.
• 22:56
  SPEAKER_00: You see?
• 22:58
  SPEAKER_00: In fact, it's because I owe God no debt that I do this with such passion.
• 23:05
  SPEAKER_00: Does that make sense to you?
• 23:07
  SPEAKER_00: It's because I'm so free of it that I want to get in here and tell everybody as much as I can all the time.
• 23:15
  SPEAKER_00: And it never occurs to me that I'm supposed to do it, that I have to do it, that I better do it.
• 23:21
  SPEAKER_00: It doesn't even occur to me that God would be disgusted with me if I don't do it.
• 23:26
  SPEAKER_00: My only mindset about it is that I owe God nothing.
• 23:31
  SPEAKER_00: He set me free from all of my debts.
• 23:33
  SPEAKER_00: Give me a place to tell people.
• 23:38
  SPEAKER_00: Are you here?
• 23:40
  SPEAKER_00: But when I felt like I was owing God things, I was just like this guy.
• 23:46
  SPEAKER_00: Because even though I had been forgiven, and I could point to you in the in the book where I when I could tell you, yes, God has forgiven me, but my mindset still felt like I still had a debt mindset to God for some reason.
• 24:00
  SPEAKER_00: And because I had a debt mindset, I demanded debts of everybody that I spoke to and I ministered to.
• 24:07
  SPEAKER_00: Because if I owe God something, you do too.
• 24:09
  SPEAKER_00: You ain't getting off scot-free here.
• 24:11
  SPEAKER_00: That's what I thought.
• 24:12
  SPEAKER_00: And so that's what this guy's doing because he still has a debt mindset.
• 24:18
  SPEAKER_00: He believes that this guy needs to pay what he owes.
• 24:21
  SPEAKER_00: And this is where we mess up with people.
• 24:23
  SPEAKER_00: Now remember, this is this parable is an answer, it's a response to Peter's question about forgiveness.
• 24:31
  SPEAKER_00: And he's showing how this can how this can work and why it and why it doesn't work and why it can't work in some.
• 24:43
  SPEAKER_00: Most people in their relationships are debt demanders.
• 24:51
  SPEAKER_00: And the only reason we would be a debt demander is because we feel like we're a debt ower.
• 24:58
  SPEAKER_00: So we demand.
• 25:01
  SPEAKER_00: And sometimes it's very subtle, and it's really, it's good things with some subtlety to it, with some debt attached to it.
• 25:10
  SPEAKER_00: Rather than good things with grace attached to it.
• 25:13
  SPEAKER_00: For instance, well, people should just do what's right.
• 25:16
  SPEAKER_00: Well, should they?
• 25:16
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 25:18
  SPEAKER_00: But we we st we start demanding that of others as if they owe that.
• 25:23
  SPEAKER_00: Well, they should, they, they need to do right by me.
• 25:26
  SPEAKER_00: They owe me this.
• 25:28
  SPEAKER_00: I demand respect.
• 25:30
  SPEAKER_00: At least you you owe me respect.
• 25:32
  SPEAKER_00: You should be doing that.
• 25:36
  SPEAKER_00: You should be treating me this way.
• 25:39
  SPEAKER_00: What am I doing?
• 25:40
  SPEAKER_00: Debt.
• 25:42
  SPEAKER_00: You should.
• 25:43
  SPEAKER_00: You ought to.
• 25:44
  SPEAKER_00: You owe.
• 25:47
  SPEAKER_00: See how subtle that can be.
• 25:49
  SPEAKER_00: And we have that.
• 25:50
  SPEAKER_00: And that's why people get so hurt and so offended with each other because they feel like somebody owes them something.
• 25:56
  SPEAKER_00: And you'll always feel like that until you know that you don't owe anybody, especially God, anything.
• 26:01
  SPEAKER_00: In fact, Paul says it about relationships.
• 26:04
  SPEAKER_00: Don't owe anybody anything except to love him.
• 26:12
  SPEAKER_00: It's very hard for me to get offended because nobody owes me anything.
• 26:17
  SPEAKER_00: So, so nobody can disappoint me because I'm not demanding or even expecting from anybody, but all the good that they do do to me, that they do, that's a blessing.
• 26:31
  SPEAKER_00: It's not because it's owed, right?
• 26:34
  SPEAKER_00: It's a blessing.
• 26:36
  SPEAKER_00: Huh?
• 26:40
  SPEAKER_00: Now, so this guy is demanding that others pay the debt.
• 26:46
  SPEAKER_00: Well, what's wrong with that?
• 26:49
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, I see that as, you know, I see something wrong that he was forgiven, so he should have had the same attitude towards someone else, since he got forgiven much.
• 26:56
  SPEAKER_00: But even those, even so, he was just demanding that this other person do what's right.
• 27:01
  SPEAKER_00: He did owe him money.
• 27:05
  SPEAKER_00: And apparently he had given him time.
• 27:09
  SPEAKER_00: And the guy still hadn't paid.
• 27:11
  SPEAKER_00: So he grabs him by the throat and he says, Pay me.
• 27:13
  SPEAKER_00: And he says, Have mercy on me.
• 27:15
  SPEAKER_00: He says, Give me some time.
• 27:17
  SPEAKER_00: You give me some time, have patience, and I will pay you what you owe.
• 27:21
  SPEAKER_00: He intends to pay him.
• 27:23
  SPEAKER_00: He hasn't been able to.
• 27:25
  SPEAKER_00: Whatever, his flesh wasn't able to make it happen.
• 27:30
  SPEAKER_00: But he still thinks I can do this.
• 27:34
  SPEAKER_00: But the difference was this guy, this guy didn't think he could do it, or else he just didn't want to wait on it.
• 27:39
  SPEAKER_00: So what he does is he, verse 30 says, He would not, but he went and he threw him into prison until he should pay the debt.
• 27:46
  SPEAKER_00: It's a little ironic because I think it'd be harder in prison to pay the debt, but he throws him in prison until he should pay the debt.
• 27:55
  SPEAKER_00: So when his fellow servants saw what he'd been done, they were grieved, and they came and they told the master what had what he did.
• 28:00
  SPEAKER_00: And his master called him to him again, and he said, You wicked servant, I forgave you all that debt because you begged me.
• 28:07
  SPEAKER_00: Should you not also have had compassion on your fellow servant just as I had pity on you?
• 28:12
  SPEAKER_00: And his master was angry, and he delivered him to the tormentors until he should pay all that was due to him.
• 28:18
  SPEAKER_00: Now here's something that we're that that's that causes confusion in people.
• 28:22
  SPEAKER_00: He said, So my heavenly Father also will do to you if each of you from his heart does from his heart from his heart does not forgive his brother his trespasses.
• 28:34
  SPEAKER_00: A couple of things here.
• 28:35
  SPEAKER_00: First of all, now remember to explain that, if you don't understand the context here and you just take this verse as a soundbite, then you can get a doctrine that says, even though you're born again, even though Jesus died for you, even though Jesus shed his blood, even though he gave you the Holy Spirit and counted you holy and complete and and all that stuff, that in your Christian walk, if somebody hurts you and you struggle and don't successfully forgive that person, that you'll go to hell.
• 29:09
  SPEAKER_00: That's what people will do with that verse.
• 29:12
  SPEAKER_00: And it's you know that's not true.
• 29:15
  SPEAKER_00: In your heart, you know that's not true.
• 29:16
  SPEAKER_00: You know that doesn't jive with everything else in this gospel, but in your head you're going, but it must be true.
• 29:23
  SPEAKER_00: It says it.
• 29:25
  SPEAKER_00: And there again, that brings another point.
• 29:29
  SPEAKER_00: There's, we either know something doctrinally or we know it in the heart.
• 29:38
  SPEAKER_00: I'll get to that in a moment.
• 29:40
  SPEAKER_00: To explain this point, remember, he's talking to people in Old Testament debt mindset.
• 29:45
  SPEAKER_00: What would Jesus do so often in his teachings and in his parables, his red letters that he would be speaking here in Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John?
• 29:55
  SPEAKER_00: Remember, he's not talking to born-again church people here.
• 30:00
  SPEAKER_00: He's talking to people under law, with law mindset, debt mindset.
• 30:04
  SPEAKER_00: Their religion is an eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth.
• 30:09
  SPEAKER_00: And their mindset is that God is that way.
• 30:13
  SPEAKER_00: That's the justice of God.
• 30:17
  SPEAKER_00: So Jesus would do things to get to the heart and he'd say, Here's what, here's how come you can't ever, none of you can succeed in that.
• 30:27
  SPEAKER_00: None of you can survive that.
• 30:30
  SPEAKER_00: No matter how hard you try.
• 30:33
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, you think that you, oh, you you you you you think that you've you've done okay because you didn't actually have the affair with your neighbor, you you you didn't commit the adultery.
• 30:42
  SPEAKER_00: Well, let me get to the heart of the matter.
• 30:43
  SPEAKER_00: He says, if you look at a woman to lust after her, see what's he doing?
• 30:47
  SPEAKER_00: He's saying, he's telling them that your debt is bigger than you than you than you think.
• 30:52
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, you think you've been okay because you you you you you clenched your clenched your you white knuckled it and you kept yourself from killing, killing that guy who had done you wrong, and you think you've done real good because you actually did not pull the trigger.
• 31:04
  SPEAKER_00: He said, But I tell you, if you hate him, it's the same thing because the issue is not the outer action, it's what went on, it's what's going on in your heart.
• 31:13
  SPEAKER_00: There was a rich young ruler that said, What must I do to inherit eternal life?
• 31:17
  SPEAKER_00: And he says, Well, keep the commandments, you know, love the Lord God as yourself and love the Lord God with all your heart and love your neighbor as yourself.
• 31:24
  SPEAKER_00: He says, I've kept those commandments since I was a child.
• 31:28
  SPEAKER_00: And Jesus is like, Oh, really?
• 31:30
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 31:31
  SPEAKER_00: Then go sell all you have and give it to the poor.
• 31:33
  SPEAKER_00: If you, if you, if you, if you love your, if you love them as much as you, then give it all to them.
• 31:39
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, you don't, huh?
• 31:42
  SPEAKER_00: You told me you did.
• 31:43
  SPEAKER_00: But what would Jesus do?
• 31:44
  SPEAKER_00: He was exposing how lost they really were when they think that they can actually pay this debt.
• 31:52
  SPEAKER_00: Sell all you have and give to the poor, then take up your cross and follow me.
• 31:56
  SPEAKER_00: Uh uh, that's that's too much to add.
• 31:59
  SPEAKER_00: Well, you said you loved God with all your heart.
• 32:02
  SPEAKER_00: The least you can do is follow me.
• 32:07
  SPEAKER_00: But doctrinally, he thought he had it, he could cover this debt.
• 32:13
  SPEAKER_00: Am I making sense to you?
• 32:15
  SPEAKER_00: So, what he's doing here is he's telling them, when he says, so would you will your father do to you if you don't from your heart forgive, because that's what's demanded of the law.
• 32:26
  SPEAKER_00: You're lost.
• 32:28
  SPEAKER_00: You've got no chance.
• 32:30
  SPEAKER_00: You can't pay the debt, in other words, he's saying.
• 32:33
  SPEAKER_00: So, under your mindset, under the way that you relate to God, which Jesus is trying to bring them out of into a new and living way here, he says, This is your end here.
• 32:44
  SPEAKER_00: This is what happens to you.
• 32:49
  SPEAKER_00: That's not the rule for the Christian.
• 32:52
  SPEAKER_00: But that's why he said that.
• 32:53
  SPEAKER_00: And notice there, he said, if each of you do not from your heart forgive.
• 32:58
  SPEAKER_00: So what's he saying there?
• 32:59
  SPEAKER_00: You have to, it's a heart change that's going to have to happen.
• 33:02
  SPEAKER_00: You need you need a new nature.
• 33:04
  SPEAKER_00: You you need to become a new creation, you need help in this.
• 33:09
  SPEAKER_00: So when we so when Paul says it's not by, it's not by it's it's not by debt, it's by grace.
• 33:16
  SPEAKER_00: See, we can do all the right things.
• 33:20
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, we we live godly lifestyles, whatever that is.
• 33:25
  SPEAKER_00: We live godly lifestyles.
• 33:27
  SPEAKER_00: But do we do it because that's a standard that we're supposed to live up to?
• 33:32
  SPEAKER_00: Well, you know, you have somebody, you know, so you have somebody, I believe that we should live a godly lifestyle, be exemplary, and shine as lights and let people see our good works.
• 33:40
  SPEAKER_00: I would say, I do too.
• 33:41
  SPEAKER_00: I totally do.
• 33:43
  SPEAKER_00: And they would say, and I would ask him, but why do you think we should?
• 33:47
  SPEAKER_00: And they say, well, because the Bible says to.
• 33:50
  SPEAKER_00: That's debt.
• 33:51
  SPEAKER_00: Even though it does.
• 33:52
  SPEAKER_00: If that's the only reason, then what happened is what you read in the Bible just gave you a debt to pay.
• 33:59
  SPEAKER_00: Because just because the Bible said to is not enough.
• 34:03
  SPEAKER_00: It's debt, and just because the Bible says to does not empower your flesh to be strong enough to do it.
• 34:09
  SPEAKER_00: Well, because God demands it.
• 34:11
  SPEAKER_00: It's God's standard.
• 34:13
  SPEAKER_00: God set that standard.
• 34:15
  SPEAKER_00: That's still not enough to empower you.
• 34:18
  SPEAKER_00: Now we both agree in living that lifestyle, but the difference is they're trying to do it by paying a debt.
• 34:25
  SPEAKER_00: Am I making sense to you?
• 34:28
  SPEAKER_00: And to him that's working for it, that's trying for it, it's the the the wages are not counted of grace whether of debt.
• 34:37
  SPEAKER_00: We're both trying to arrive at the same place here.
• 34:42
  SPEAKER_00: But there's but but see, there's the why and there's the what.
• 34:45
  SPEAKER_00: We both agree in the what to do, what it should look like, but the difference is the why.
• 34:51
  SPEAKER_00: They believe the why is because we owe it.
• 34:55
  SPEAKER_00: I believe the why is because of a new nature.
• 34:57
  SPEAKER_00: I believe the why is of grace.
• 34:59
  SPEAKER_00: I believe the why is of a of a of a new creation.
• 35:02
  SPEAKER_00: I believe the why, the why this is even possible is because of the heart change.
• 35:06
  SPEAKER_00: So I talk about acknowledging the heart change, not about acknowledging the debt.
• 35:12
  SPEAKER_00: You see, we both we both want to arrive at the same place, but some people think that you can't get there unless you put the debt on them.
• 35:19
  SPEAKER_00: Like here, I deal with this all the time.
• 35:20
  SPEAKER_00: I get, I get, I get this all the time from people.
• 35:24
  SPEAKER_00: But we should, I believe in the grace of God, I believe in the love of God, that's good, but we should keep them striving for that standard.
• 35:34
  SPEAKER_00: Sounds right.
• 35:35
  SPEAKER_00: It sounds, the motives are so good.
• 35:39
  SPEAKER_00: These were not evil people that Jesus was teaching here, but they just had a debt mentality.
• 35:43
  SPEAKER_00: They had a, they just were perception was wrong.
• 35:47
  SPEAKER_00: And it's your perception that determines your reality.
• 35:51
  SPEAKER_00: Jesus simply said, You'll know the truth.
• 35:53
  SPEAKER_00: The truth will make you free.
• 35:56
  SPEAKER_00: In Galatians chapter 3, he says, For as many as put themselves under the law are putting themselves under a curse.
• 36:04
  SPEAKER_00: Well, then why?
• 36:05
  SPEAKER_00: Because it's simply a debt mindset, and that debt is a curse.
• 36:09
  SPEAKER_00: No one, and and and the Bible also teaches the borrower is subject to the lender.
• 36:15
  SPEAKER_00: If it's a debt mentality, put it in a spiritual sense with us and God, then we're servants and not sons.
• 36:21
  SPEAKER_00: But Jesus said, I no longer call you servants.
• 36:24
  SPEAKER_00: Because a servant doesn't know what his master's up to.
• 36:29
  SPEAKER_00: I call you sons.
• 36:30
  SPEAKER_00: He says, now Moses, who gave the law, he was faithful over the house of God, but he was faithful like a servant faithful.
• 36:37
  SPEAKER_00: But you are faithful as sons.
• 36:39
  SPEAKER_00: He says, because the servant does not abide in the house of doesn't abide in the master's house always, but the son always lives there.
• 36:51
  SPEAKER_00: Go back to Romans 4.
• 36:53
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, no, no.
• 36:54
  SPEAKER_00: I'm gonna show you something here.
• 36:55
  SPEAKER_00: Go with me to to um 2 Peter chapter 1.
• 36:58
  SPEAKER_00: I want to show you a verse there that applies to this.
• 37:00
  SPEAKER_00: Are you hearing anything?
• 37:03
  SPEAKER_00: No?
• 37:04
  SPEAKER_00: Making any sense?
• 37:07
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 37:08
  SPEAKER_00: Um Second Peter chapter 1, excuse me.
• 37:20
  SPEAKER_00: 2 Peter chapter 1, verse, look at look at verse 5.
• 37:27
  SPEAKER_00: Peter says, but for this very reason, giving all diligence diligence, add to your faith virtue, faith, virtue, virtue, knowledge, to knowledge, self-control, to self-control, perseverance or patience, to patience, godliness, to godliness, brotherly kindness, to brotherly kindness, love.
• 37:48
  SPEAKER_00: Because if these things are yours and they abound, you won't be barren or unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.
• 37:54
  SPEAKER_00: Look at the next verse, verse 9.
• 37:56
  SPEAKER_00: For he who lacks these things is short-sighted even into blindness, and he has forgotten that he was cleansed from his old sins.
• 38:04
  SPEAKER_00: We just read a parable about a man that was forgiven of all his debt.
• 38:09
  SPEAKER_00: Just like this Peter saying, You're cleansed from all your sins.
• 38:12
  SPEAKER_00: But you can forget or not be aware of it, and you'll and rather than than go around like you've got a zeroed-out account, you'll feel like you still owe something.
• 38:24
  SPEAKER_00: And and and it's it's that's the str that's where Christians struggle so often, and this is where they struggle with all the things that he just listed.
• 38:32
  SPEAKER_00: And it's basically fruit of the Spirit, just said in different terms, but it's brotherly kindness and love and patience and faith and all those things.
• 38:39
  SPEAKER_00: And he says, why do Christians struggle with it?
• 38:41
  SPEAKER_00: Why do Christians struggle with doubt and fear?
• 38:43
  SPEAKER_00: Why do they struggle with forgiveness?
• 38:45
  SPEAKER_00: Why do they struggle with these beautiful, wonderful, limitless things of God, and we struggle trying to put human logical, responsible limits on them?
• 38:58
  SPEAKER_00: Why do people struggle?
• 38:59
  SPEAKER_00: He says, because they're they're they've forgotten, they're not aware that their debt has been cleared, that they've been purged of all their sins.
• 39:07
  SPEAKER_00: Are you hearing that?
• 39:08
  SPEAKER_00: And so people start feeling like I'm not good enough.
• 39:11
  SPEAKER_00: Why?
• 39:12
  SPEAKER_00: Well, because I don't live up to what?
• 39:15
  SPEAKER_00: What do you owe?
• 39:18
  SPEAKER_00: You're not in the hole here trying to catch up.
• 39:22
  SPEAKER_00: Are you hearing this?
• 39:27
  SPEAKER_00: Well, I know God expects more of me.
• 39:29
  SPEAKER_00: Really?
• 39:30
  SPEAKER_00: Let me see your books.
• 39:33
  SPEAKER_00: There's a big zero there.
• 39:35
  SPEAKER_00: What's he expecting?
• 39:38
  SPEAKER_00: Maybe he's not expecting, maybe he knows your frame, maybe he knows your weakness, maybe he knows your flesh, maybe he knows that you're just dust.
• 39:44
  SPEAKER_00: Maybe that's why he came and did what he did with this new and living way and came to help you and to live inside you, to empower you, to give you a changed heart, so that out of acknowledging the good things that's in you, not what you owe, not what you're, not where you're lacking, not where you're in the hole, but acknowledging the good things that's in you, he says your faith becomes effective.
• 40:04
  SPEAKER_00: See, this is where you start growing like a weed.
• 40:06
  SPEAKER_00: You become so alive, so full of uh of the fruit of the Spirit, happiness, joy.
• 40:11
  SPEAKER_00: This is where these things abound, simply by being aware that your debt is cleared and you owe nothing.
• 40:18
  SPEAKER_00: We do the same things, but we or we try to do the same things, but the things that debt-minded people can never do, we can now begin to see happen because of the life that's in us.
• 40:30
  SPEAKER_00: Uh well, we're to we're to glorify God.
• 40:32
  SPEAKER_00: Well, we'll do that either because that's what we owe God.
• 40:36
  SPEAKER_00: Well, why do we do that?
• 40:37
  SPEAKER_00: Well, that's what he made us for, so that's what we're supposed to try to do.
• 40:41
  SPEAKER_00: See, see, see, and it sounds so right, it's so close, but it's dead.
• 40:48
  SPEAKER_00: How do you glorify God?
• 40:50
  SPEAKER_00: I glorify God because I'm so imperfect, I can't pay the cost, I can't pay the debt.
• 40:58
  SPEAKER_00: That banner I put up there, me of all people could never have done that.
• 41:04
  SPEAKER_00: I promise you, because I tried.
• 41:07
  SPEAKER_00: I tried hard.
• 41:11
  SPEAKER_00: And I didn't realize it at the time, but I was propelled by quite a bit of pride, that's just fleshly pride, that just said, Rick, you're good enough, you can do this.
• 41:18
  SPEAKER_00: Show them.
• 41:19
  SPEAKER_00: Show God you can do it, show the people around you you can do it.
• 41:22
  SPEAKER_00: Get there.
• 41:24
  SPEAKER_00: You get there, Rick.
• 41:25
  SPEAKER_00: Once you finally get to that place, you're gonna you're gonna obtain the prize.
• 41:28
  SPEAKER_00: Man, you're gonna be the most anointed man, you're gonna be the most blessed man.
• 41:32
  SPEAKER_00: I'm telling you, God is gonna dig you.
• 41:38
  SPEAKER_00: When you don't owe a debt, you can wake up in the morning and you're already the blessed man.
• 41:43
  SPEAKER_00: You're already, God already digs you.
• 41:46
  SPEAKER_00: Like you were saying earlier, you wake up and you never have to pray for the Spirit to come and join you or be with you or go with you or anything because he never leaves you.
• 41:55
  SPEAKER_00: You're just there, you're aware of it, and you don't have to do anything to make it happen because you don't owe any debt.
• 42:00
  SPEAKER_00: I got good news, not bad news.
• 42:02
  SPEAKER_00: I was in a conference one time and and uh two two of us were, there were more than two of us, but but there was another preacher then that was in the conference, and during his session, he was he he was essentially he did a great job.
• 42:15
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, he had he had us all laughing, he was a funny guy and and and all that, and he but he had but he did a great job of of preaching debt.
• 42:23
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, and and and and the way he was so good at it that pretty soon everybody's getting swept up in and saying, Amen, amen, because it sounded so right.
• 42:31
  SPEAKER_00: And he made this statement that I've heard other preachers say.
• 42:33
  SPEAKER_00: He says, He says, Well, don't blame me, don't get mad at me.
• 42:36
  SPEAKER_00: He says, I'm just the messenger.
• 42:37
  SPEAKER_00: He said, I would have liked to, I would have liked to brought something better, but but but you know, God had me bringing the light bill today, you know, and time to pay up debt.
• 42:47
  SPEAKER_00: And it so stirs up the flesh, like it did this guy that owed that big debt.
• 42:54
  SPEAKER_00: It so stirs up the flesh to try to get up and pay it.
• 42:58
  SPEAKER_00: And everybody will walk out of there and thinking that, thinking that, boy, you know what?
• 43:05
  SPEAKER_00: I really need to do better.
• 43:07
  SPEAKER_00: What's that?
• 43:08
  SPEAKER_00: I need to buckle down and pay up.
• 43:12
  SPEAKER_00: Boy, I really need to be doing more of this.
• 43:13
  SPEAKER_00: I need to be doing more of that.
• 43:18
  SPEAKER_00: Should we?
• 43:21
  SPEAKER_00: Maybe that's not the right word.
• 43:23
  SPEAKER_00: Do we, will we?
• 43:25
  SPEAKER_00: Walking in the spirit is how you do and how you will.
• 43:30
  SPEAKER_00: But by putting pressure and condemnation on the flesh of something owed, even even a thing like giving, giving money in the church, giving offerings, tithes and offerings.
• 43:40
  SPEAKER_00: It's so very clear.
• 43:42
  SPEAKER_00: You know, we we we were afraid to we were afraid to to show people that verse because we we felt like people had to have some pressure.
• 43:50
  SPEAKER_00: We'd say, you need to give.
• 43:52
  SPEAKER_00: If you want to get blessed, you give.
• 43:53
  SPEAKER_00: And it and it and it sounds so right, it's so close because we've got our verses, but then.
• 44:00
  SPEAKER_00: In 1 Corinthians he says, but let everybody give as a purpose in their heart, not of necessity.
• 44:07
  SPEAKER_00: We could say not of debt, not because they owe it, not because they need to, not because they have to.
• 44:13
  SPEAKER_00: But let them give freely, for God loves a cheerful giver.
• 44:18
  SPEAKER_00: Not a begrudging giver.
• 44:24
  SPEAKER_00: So when we're struggling in these things, he says, if you're lacking these things, gosh, I just don't have the patience.
• 44:33
  SPEAKER_00: He says, you just forgot who you are.
• 44:36
  SPEAKER_00: You're forgiven.
• 44:38
  SPEAKER_00: You don't owe anything.
• 44:40
  SPEAKER_00: Well, I know God's trying to teach me patience.
• 44:43
  SPEAKER_00: I used to say, I don't say that anymore because there again, there's a connotation that there's still something that God's tried to get out of you.
• 44:54
  SPEAKER_00: While we were yet sinners, he knew our condition.
• 44:59
  SPEAKER_00: And he says, I love this creation anyway.
• 45:02
  SPEAKER_00: I love these people anyway.
• 45:05
  SPEAKER_00: As dirty as they are.
• 45:07
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm making this, I'm bringing this way to fruition now.
• 45:11
  SPEAKER_00: I just want to be with them.
• 45:14
  SPEAKER_00: After thousands of years on earth, they're still ugly, they're still mean, they're still selfish, they're still lustful, they're still hateful, they're still still all this.
• 45:22
  SPEAKER_00: He says, but it's the fullness of time.
• 45:24
  SPEAKER_00: I ain't waiting.
• 45:25
  SPEAKER_00: I'm just going to be with them anyway.
• 45:27
  SPEAKER_00: I'm just going to make it whosoever will.
• 45:30
  SPEAKER_00: We ain't going to make this thing out of debt.
• 45:32
  SPEAKER_00: They've lived under debt for thousands of years.
• 45:34
  SPEAKER_00: I'm going to make a new and living way, a new covenant, not like the old one.
• 45:38
  SPEAKER_00: I'm going to make a new covenant.
• 45:40
  SPEAKER_00: And in this new covenant, deaths will be canceled.
• 45:42
  SPEAKER_00: Their sins and their lawless deeds I'll remember no more.
• 45:45
  SPEAKER_00: I will cast them as far from me as the east is to the west.
• 45:48
  SPEAKER_00: They will not exist anymore.
• 45:50
  SPEAKER_00: Paul sees this and writes it in 2 Corinthians 5 219.
• 45:54
  SPEAKER_00: And he says, he says, and God has given to us the ministry of conciliation, God not imputing the world's trespasses unto them.
• 46:06
  SPEAKER_00: Our debts were not canceled just when we received.
• 46:10
  SPEAKER_00: Our debts were canceled way before we received.
• 46:14
  SPEAKER_00: And so are theirs.
• 46:17
  SPEAKER_00: So is every man's debt canceled.
• 46:20
  SPEAKER_00: Why do we tell the good news?
• 46:21
  SPEAKER_00: Because they need to know.
• 46:23
  SPEAKER_00: They need to come into this fellowship with God and enjoy the freedom of a debt-free life.
• 46:28
  SPEAKER_00: Talking about spiritually debt-free.
• 46:31
  SPEAKER_00: Are you hearing me?
• 46:32
  SPEAKER_00: Let's finish up with Romans 4.4.
• 46:35
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you for giving me your time tonight.
• 46:38
  SPEAKER_00: I hope this is being a blessing to someone.
• 46:41
  SPEAKER_00: The whole, this whole everything is being said pertaining to these two foundations, debt or grace.
• 46:52
  SPEAKER_00: Both of them promise to bring about godly results.
• 46:58
  SPEAKER_00: One of them's a liar.
• 47:12
  SPEAKER_00: But to him who does not work, but just believes on him that justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness, just like David also describes the blessedness of the man to whom God imputes righteousness apart from his works.
• 47:28
  SPEAKER_00: Verse 7, he says, Blessed are those whose lawless deeds are forgiven and whose sins are covered.
• 47:35
  SPEAKER_00: Blessed is the man to whom the Lord shall not impute sin.
• 47:39
  SPEAKER_00: David looking forward to this thing that God would bring, that we now are the beneficiaries of.
• 48:28
  SPEAKER_00: So that I would never owe a debt.
• 48:31
  SPEAKER_00: And because I never owe a debt, even though I still commit sin in my humanity, in my flesh.
• 48:45
  SPEAKER_00: It's just that sin in my flesh.
• 48:47
  SPEAKER_00: But even though I even though I do, that's why it's all about grace.
• 48:53
  SPEAKER_00: Even though I do, I will never be punished for my sin.
• 48:57
  SPEAKER_00: Now, now we you know, I want to do some stupid sin.
• 49:01
  SPEAKER_00: I'll reap, you know, there are consequences, right?
• 49:05
  SPEAKER_00: I can go commit adultery and then pay the price for what I do, right?
• 49:11
  SPEAKER_00: So we know that, but as far as God having to inflict punishment, it's all been taken care of.
• 49:18
  SPEAKER_00: There's no debt.
• 49:20
  SPEAKER_00: There's nothing that's required of me.
• 49:22
  SPEAKER_00: Romans 8:3, that the righteous requirement of the law would be fulfilled once and for all.
• 49:29
  SPEAKER_00: There's no requirement or debt.
• 49:33
  SPEAKER_00: Blessed is a man whose deeds are forgiven, whose sins are covered, blessed is the man to whom the Lord shall not impeach.
• 49:38
  SPEAKER_00: And that's why this is so important.
• 49:40
  SPEAKER_00: And so when you say, well, how far can we carry this?
• 49:44
  SPEAKER_00: I believe in the grace of God, but how far is responsible, as far as the east is to the west, is the only way that this can go.
• 49:51
  SPEAKER_00: I believe in the love of God.
• 49:53
  SPEAKER_00: I believe that it's called unconditional, but how limitless is it?
• 49:57
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, come on, you know.
• 50:00
  SPEAKER_00: See, people that struggle with that, they're looking at it doctrinally.
• 50:06
  SPEAKER_00: And Jesus said, if you want to get, see what he was really telling Peter there, he says, we're talking about from the heart.
• 50:15
  SPEAKER_00: The only way somebody, when Peter, you ask me how many times should one forgive seven times, I say 490 times.
• 50:21
  SPEAKER_00: How is that possible?
• 50:22
  SPEAKER_00: Only when all your debts have been canceled.
• 50:24
  SPEAKER_00: Could you possibly do that?
• 50:28
  SPEAKER_00: Only when your debts have been completely canceled.
• 50:30
  SPEAKER_00: That's the only way that anybody could live that way.
• 50:34
  SPEAKER_00: In fact, he could say, I'm going to show you.
• 50:37
  SPEAKER_00: Just watch me when I hang on that cross.
• 50:41
  SPEAKER_00: And watch what I do.
• 50:42
  SPEAKER_00: Father, forgive them.
• 50:44
  SPEAKER_00: Because they don't know.
• 50:48
  SPEAKER_00: But God is still a just God, Rick.
• 50:51
  SPEAKER_00: He is still just.
• 50:52
  SPEAKER_00: He must be just or he would cease to be God.
• 50:56
  SPEAKER_00: You know why we say it like that?
• 50:57
  SPEAKER_00: Because we have our idea of justice in our little human box.
• 51:02
  SPEAKER_00: God's justice is so much heavenly, it's so different.
• 51:06
  SPEAKER_00: Jonah had an idea of justice.
• 51:09
  SPEAKER_00: He says, Jonah, isn't it just?
• 51:11
  SPEAKER_00: Isn't it right that I be merciful to these people of Nineveh who don't know their right hand from their left?
• 51:18
  SPEAKER_00: Somebody told me one time says, God's love is important, but his justice is just important.
• 51:23
  SPEAKER_00: I said, if you could see it, his love is his justice.
• 51:30
  SPEAKER_00: Jesus would tell us that over and over.
• 51:32
  SPEAKER_00: Matthew chapter 20.
• 51:35
  SPEAKER_00: People that worked all day, people that came in and worked the last hour of the day, he paid them all the same.
• 51:39
  SPEAKER_00: They get mad.
• 51:40
  SPEAKER_00: Well, we've worked harder, we've done more, we deserve more.
• 51:45
  SPEAKER_00: Paul said, Well, he that works, then it's not counted as grace.
• 51:49
  SPEAKER_00: It's it's it's it's it's it's it's debt.
• 51:52
  SPEAKER_00: But we did more, we deserved more.
• 51:54
  SPEAKER_00: And and they said it's not right.
• 51:58
  SPEAKER_00: And the master says, Isn't it right for me to be good to these people?
• 52:05
  SPEAKER_00: If I choose to be good to them, isn't it right for me to do what I want to do and be good?
• 52:13
  SPEAKER_00: You don't want what's fair anyway, really.
• 52:15
  SPEAKER_00: You demand what's fair of other people.
• 52:17
  SPEAKER_00: Do you really want everything to be fair?
• 52:20
  SPEAKER_00: If you could look at your debt, I promise you you don't.
• 52:23
  SPEAKER_00: You really don't want fair.
• 52:28
  SPEAKER_00: You want grace, you want cancellation.
• 52:33
  SPEAKER_00: The fear was that if I had no debt, I wouldn't do anything.
• 52:37
  SPEAKER_00: Well, I owe no debt.
• 52:39
  SPEAKER_00: I'm still doing it.
• 52:42
  SPEAKER_00: With no pressure at all.
• 52:47
  SPEAKER_00: The love of God compels us from the heart.
• 52:51
  SPEAKER_00: I do it, not out of a fleshly obedience.
• 52:55
  SPEAKER_00: It's a heart life that looks like obedience.
• 53:04
  SPEAKER_00: I'm gonna pray and then I'll I'll have I'll take any comments or questions or anything.
• 53:09
  SPEAKER_00: You guys got some preaching to add to this, whatever.