Latest / Dear Nina: Conversations About Friendship / #159 - Teaching Kindness Without Forcing Friendships: A Parenting Dilemma (Jessica Speer)

Transcript

#159 - Teaching Kindness Without Forcing Friendships: A Parenting Dilemma (Jessica Speer) · Dear Nina: Conversations About Friendship

0:00
[SPEAKER_01]: earlier that parents can start talking to their kids about not everybody's gonna like you.
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[SPEAKER_01]: You're not always gonna be included and not every friendship is gonna feel like a fit.
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[SPEAKER_01]: But you are perfectly okay as you are.
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[SPEAKER_01]: To be keeping those things in mind is really important because I do think we put a lot of expectations on other people's kids.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Often happens to be those much more gentle souls lower key highly sensitive kids that get to a point where they
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[SPEAKER_01]: Just can't take any more on their shoulders.
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[SPEAKER_00]: Welcome to Dear Nina Conversations about Friendship.
0:36
[SPEAKER_00]: I am your host Nina Badzah.
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[SPEAKER_00]: I have been writing about friendship for over a decade, hot casting about it for over four years.
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[SPEAKER_00]: You are listening to episode one fifty nine fresh off my live event in Chicago in my hometown.
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[SPEAKER_00]: Well, I guess my hometown is Minneapolis now.
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[SPEAKER_00]: I've lived in Minneapolis for twenty five years.
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[SPEAKER_00]: But when I say hometown in that sense, I mean the place I grew up, which was Highland Park, Illinois.
1:00
[SPEAKER_00]: And that is where I did my life event.
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[SPEAKER_00]: I will have that recording from the event out in, I believe a week should be episode one, sixty.
1:08
[SPEAKER_00]: That topic was about friend groups, which is closer related to what I'm going to be talking about today.
1:15
[SPEAKER_00]: Today's episode.
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[SPEAKER_00]: the interview part of the episode is going to be a encore version of an episode I had way back and twenty twenty one in episode ten.
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[SPEAKER_00]: It is just as relevant.
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[SPEAKER_00]: The title of the original one was my kid is not interested in pursuing this friendship, which was a great title, frankly, because it described what it is because I'm going to talk about a couple more things in the intro here.
1:41
[SPEAKER_00]: I'll be retitling it.
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[SPEAKER_00]: I'm focusing on this really tricky thing in parenting of
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[SPEAKER_00]: teaching your kids to be kind without forcing friendships on them.
1:51
[SPEAKER_00]: It is a dilemma.
1:52
[SPEAKER_00]: It is a parenting dilemma.
1:53
[SPEAKER_00]: We want our kids to have agency and who their friends with.
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[SPEAKER_00]: I don't think it is right to force friendships on your kids.
2:00
[SPEAKER_00]: Kids do have a right to acknowledge the real thing that is chemistry.
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[SPEAKER_00]: We do get along better with some people than others, but acknowledging that and also encouraging your kids to be inclusive.
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[SPEAKER_00]: Kind, not to leave people out, not to drop people.
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[SPEAKER_00]: That is a very difficult thing to balance.
2:21
[SPEAKER_00]: Jessica Spear, who is the guest in the interview, makes such a good point in their, which is in the dating arena when our kids even a middle school.
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[SPEAKER_00]: They start to have crushes on people and maybe have little
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[SPEAKER_00]: dates and that dates where they go out out of date, where they consider somebody the person they're quote unquote talking to.
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[SPEAKER_00]: I'm sure many of you with teens or twins are aware that there's so many different levels and labels of relationships out there that I barely understand.
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[SPEAKER_00]: There's talking.
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[SPEAKER_00]: There's dating.
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[SPEAKER_00]: There's being exclusive and those are all different things.
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[SPEAKER_00]: I get how talking as different than dating and being exclusive.
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[SPEAKER_00]: I do not get how dating and being exclusive are different, even though my kids who are teenagers, all of them, well, one's twenty one now.
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[SPEAKER_00]: So he's out of being a teenager.
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[SPEAKER_00]: All of them, actually, including the thirteen year old, have tried to explain to me the difference between being exclusive and dating.
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[SPEAKER_00]: And I still don't get it.
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[SPEAKER_00]: But that's really not the topic of today.
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[SPEAKER_00]: The point that Jessica was making is
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[SPEAKER_00]: We would never tell our kids that they have to keep talking to our dating or being exclusive with somebody who had a romantic interest in them.
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[SPEAKER_00]: If our child did not have that interest, right?
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[SPEAKER_00]: We would never be like, well, you know, it's really kind and inclusive to make sure that you keep letting this person talk to you and send you messages.
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[SPEAKER_00]: We wouldn't do that.
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[SPEAKER_00]: But we do often do it with friends.
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[SPEAKER_00]: And I understand why we're doing it in the name of being inclusive, being kind, but it is possibly sending a message to our kids that they don't really know where their heart is in terms of who they connect with and who they don't.
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[SPEAKER_00]: And it doesn't really teach them an important skill that they're going to need all through their lives, which is how to be kind, open, and
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[SPEAKER_00]: warm to people without necessarily having to be everyone's best friend.
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[SPEAKER_00]: That's hard.
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[SPEAKER_00]: If we teach our kids constantly that they're mean and their bullies and their horrible people because they want only to be close with a few people that they really feel most control with, that they have to be everybody's close friend.
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[SPEAKER_00]: I don't think that's a great lesson and yet nobody wants to raise
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[SPEAKER_00]: The mean kid, of course that.
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[SPEAKER_00]: It is a dilemma.
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[SPEAKER_00]: This teaching kindness without forcing friendships on our kids.
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[SPEAKER_00]: It also relates to a question that I just recently posted on my sub-stack, which is at dyrnina.
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[SPEAKER_00]: That sub-stack.com.
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[SPEAKER_00]: On my newsletter, just to be clear almost everything on the newsletter about friendship is free.
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[SPEAKER_00]: You don't need to pay for it.
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[SPEAKER_00]: I put the anonymous questions that I get in the answers that I spend a lot of time writing behind a paywall because I do spend a lot of extra time on that.
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[SPEAKER_00]: That's the way I've chosen to do it.
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[SPEAKER_00]: The people who are reading those questions and reading those answers are really interested in this topic.
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[SPEAKER_00]: They're not there to be trolls or to leave really harsh comments for no reason.
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[SPEAKER_00]: Constructive comments are great.
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[SPEAKER_00]: And I do get those sometimes.
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[SPEAKER_00]: And people who pay for those extra topics are coming at it, I think, with the right point of view, which is an open-mindedness and wanting to be part of a deeper conversations about these tricky parts of friendships.
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[SPEAKER_00]: I do mostly focus on adults.
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[SPEAKER_00]: In a way, this episode, even though it's somewhat about teens and teens, is still about adults.
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[SPEAKER_00]: It's about the parents.
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[SPEAKER_00]: How do we as parents continue to teach our kids inclusivity, but also teach them to know who they are and who they connect with.
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[SPEAKER_00]: The sub-stack newsletter that is currently just out on teardina.sub-stack.com.
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[SPEAKER_00]: That is from a parent who is struggling with the knowledge that her daughter and their friends just dropped a girl from the friend group.
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[SPEAKER_00]: I get the sense that her daughter is the ringleader in having decided that girl number five is no longer in this group.
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[SPEAKER_00]: The letter that is answered in the episode you're about to hear is also from a parent who is worried about her daughter leaving people out.
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[SPEAKER_00]: It's a slightly different angle.
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[SPEAKER_00]: This is not a daughter who has dropped somebody in today's episode.
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[SPEAKER_00]: It is more that the daughter doesn't necessarily want to get together with the people who are reaching out to her.
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[SPEAKER_00]: That is not a situation where they're already friends and then your kid drop that kid.
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[SPEAKER_00]: It's subtle difference, but important difference, which is people are reaching out to your kid and your kid is just not that into it.
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[SPEAKER_00]: Happens to us as adults too, right?
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[SPEAKER_00]: Sometimes the chemistry is just not there.
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[SPEAKER_00]: You also don't want to be labeled mean or a bully.
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[SPEAKER_00]: The letterwriter for today's episode also reflects on the fact that she has a son who was not included.
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[SPEAKER_00]: He was the kid people weren't interested in
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[SPEAKER_00]: when her son would reach out for a plan.
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[SPEAKER_00]: So she's been on both sides of it.
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[SPEAKER_00]: I would say most of us have your kid is not included.
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[SPEAKER_00]: Your kid doesn't want to hang out with everyone that reaches out to your kid or as adults.
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[SPEAKER_00]: We all tend to face this one way or another.
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[SPEAKER_00]: There's people who are not interested in us.
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[SPEAKER_00]: I've done whole episodes on that.
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[SPEAKER_00]: There are people that are interested in us that we aren't sure what to do about.
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[SPEAKER_00]: I actually did one of my favorite episodes.
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[SPEAKER_00]: I've included in the show notes is dealing with that.
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[SPEAKER_00]: You want to be kind as an adult.
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[SPEAKER_00]: You do not want to hurt people's feelings, and yet you don't want to spend all of your social time making sure people aren't saying you're not nice.
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[SPEAKER_00]: You have to be able to spend time with people you really click with and enjoy.
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[SPEAKER_00]: I think a lot of people deserve at least one or two chances, but you don't owe anybody endless years of friendship when the chemistry is not there.
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[SPEAKER_00]: How to do that with kindness and sympathy and with an open heart is the subject of an episode I did with Ruthie Koval.
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[SPEAKER_00]: It's one of my favorites.
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[SPEAKER_00]: It's one of my husband's favorites too.
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[SPEAKER_00]: He listens to them all and we love them all.
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[SPEAKER_00]: They're like our kids.
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[SPEAKER_00]: We love them all, but some of the episodes do have a major standout meaning that we end up holding them to each other to other people.
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[SPEAKER_00]: So I will definitely include that in the show notes if you're an adult dealing with kind of a similar situation that we're going to be talking about in the episode today where you want to help your kid be kind to others, but you also don't want to get in the message that they don't get to decide who they're friends with.
8:01
[SPEAKER_00]: It is not easy this stuff.
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[SPEAKER_00]: Thank goodness, I don't have to do it alone.
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[SPEAKER_00]: Joining me in that discussion was Jessica Spear, who is an award-winning author of Books for Kids and Twins, including, one called the phone book, stay safe, be smart, and make the world better with the powerful device in your hand.
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[SPEAKER_00]: Her other book that really was the focus of this episode was BFF or NRF, not really friends, a girls guide to happy friendships.
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[SPEAKER_00]: And by the way, this applies to boys too.
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[SPEAKER_00]: I made a big deal about that in my life event last week.
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[SPEAKER_00]: All of this applies the boys to this idea that this is just for girls.
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[SPEAKER_00]: And only girls are only women have issues with how we treat people, how we are treated.
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[SPEAKER_00]: That's just not true.
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[SPEAKER_00]: It's across the board.
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[SPEAKER_00]: And her newest book is called Middle School Safety Goggles Advised.
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[SPEAKER_00]: And she's working on a follow-up to BFF or NRF right now for slightly older kids.
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[SPEAKER_00]: Jessica has a master's degree in social sciences and has a knack for writing about complex topics in a way that really connects with kids and teens.
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[SPEAKER_00]: She is wonderful and I'm so appreciative that she was one of my very early guests.
9:06
[SPEAKER_00]: Episode ten.
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[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, if this is one fifty-nine, if it's so ten was a long, long time ago, I hope you get as much out of this conversation with Jessica Spear as I did.
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[SPEAKER_00]: Here she is.
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[SPEAKER_00]: Welcome, Jessica.
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[SPEAKER_00]: Thanks so much for having me.
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[SPEAKER_00]: I'm so excited to be here with you.
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[SPEAKER_00]: Let listeners know who might not have seen the bug, BFF or NRF, not really friends.
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[SPEAKER_00]: Really gets into the nitty gritty of friendship skills.
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[SPEAKER_00]: That's my takeaway.
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[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, you might describe it differently, but I'm going to tell you a someone who thinks a lot about friendship.
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[SPEAKER_00]: You explain things that might seem like they should be obvious.
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[SPEAKER_00]: Not only are they not obvious, they're not even obvious to a lot of adults.
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[SPEAKER_00]: I'm going to give a couple of examples.
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[SPEAKER_00]: How to listen to think before they speak.
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[SPEAKER_00]: handle feelings of jealousy, allowing friends to be with other friends, how to be reliable, how to give us sincere apology, how to navigate, complete.
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[SPEAKER_00]: These are all parts of your book that when you hear they're like, yeah, of course, if you're a good friend, you're going to be reliable.
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[SPEAKER_00]: You're going to know how to apologize.
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[SPEAKER_00]: You're going to think before you talk.
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[SPEAKER_00]: How many adults follow that?
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[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, you're so right.
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[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, we're not really taught this in any regimented way.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Part of the inspiration for the book is we kind of learn this on the fly and sometimes we learn it in a way that isn't helpful or isn't actually pointing us in the right direction.
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[SPEAKER_00]: I'm going to get right to the letter and read it for us and then we will dissect it.
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[SPEAKER_00]: Dear Nina, I want my eleven-year-old daughter to make her own decisions about her friendships, but I also want her to be kind and inclusive.
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[SPEAKER_00]: There are a few girls her age who have reached out to her with texts for hangouts, but my daughter isn't interested.
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[SPEAKER_00]: Her reasons when I push her on it vary from, I don't like her, to she's annoying, to ah mom.
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[SPEAKER_00]: It's clear that she and four other girls are a click and have little interest in including anyone else.
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[SPEAKER_00]: How do I balance encouraging my kids independent decisions with my even bigger desire to demand kindness out of her?
11:02
[SPEAKER_00]: I have an older son who was often left out when he was that age, so I know what it's like to see your kid not included.
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[SPEAKER_00]: I don't want my daughter to be the cause of hurt feelings, but now that I'm on this side of things, I see it's really more complicated than I thought.
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[SPEAKER_00]: I used to say when my son was going through this stuff, oh, I'd never let my kid act that way.
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[SPEAKER_00]: We can only control so much, I guess.
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[SPEAKER_00]: I love any thoughts, thanks, Nicole.
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[SPEAKER_00]: Jessica, I'm going to push it to you first.
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[SPEAKER_00]: Just your reaction to somebody who has spent a lot of time with girls this age.
11:34
[SPEAKER_01]: And I love this question because I see this all the time and not just in the preteen years.
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[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, even through adult life.
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[SPEAKER_01]: So how do we handle a situation where we really don't want to have a friendship with somebody?
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[SPEAKER_01]: How do we treat that person?
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[SPEAKER_01]: dignity and kindness.
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[SPEAKER_01]: So this is really tricky.
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[SPEAKER_01]: So I love this.
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[SPEAKER_01]: So one thing that I think is helpful is to help kids and pre-teens and teens understand that there are some shared spaces that we have as humans.
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[SPEAKER_01]: And in these shared spaces, it's really important to treat people with dignity, to be accepting, to be kind.
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[SPEAKER_01]: So let's take the school lunch room, for example.
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[SPEAKER_01]: So there's a lot of things going on in the school lunchroom.
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[SPEAKER_01]: We all have those wonderful and those not so great memories of middle school elementary school lunchroom.
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[SPEAKER_01]: So ideally in the perfect world, which we're not in, but in the perfect world, everybody would feel safe and comfortable in that space.
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[SPEAKER_01]: So a lot of schools do a lot of work to try to create that.
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[SPEAKER_01]: However, it lands differently with different kids.
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[SPEAKER_01]: It lands differently from grade to grade, but I think as parents, we can help our kids understand their places where this is a shared space.
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[SPEAKER_01]: And it's really important to make sure everyone feels comfortable there.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Now that might be the Boy Scout troop, that might be the team.
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[SPEAKER_01]: So when we're in these shared spaces with groups, how can we behave in a way that doesn't make people feel?
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[SPEAKER_01]: less than or not, where they saw allowing them to sit at our table, allowing them to connect with the group.
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[SPEAKER_01]: But I do feel on the flip side of that coin.
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[SPEAKER_01]: It's also really important, especially as girls enter the preteen in the teen years that they get to choose where they really want to develop closeness with people.
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[SPEAKER_01]: So in starting in the pre teens, girls and boys are looking for something more in friendship.
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[SPEAKER_01]: You know, they're looking for a little more intimacy.
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[SPEAKER_01]: They're pulling away from their families.
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[SPEAKER_01]: They want to share about themselves.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Maybe things they don't feel comfortable sharing with everybody.
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[SPEAKER_01]: It is important, especially for girls, to be able to choose who they're doing now with.
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[SPEAKER_01]: When I fast forward to future romantic relationships, we wouldn't want girls to stay in relationships because they feel bad because they have to have their hurting that person.
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[SPEAKER_01]: They don't want to hurt that person's feeling.
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[SPEAKER_01]: So there is the balance.
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[SPEAKER_01]: How do we treat people with respect in these shared spaces and dignity and make them feel welcome?
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[SPEAKER_01]: But also, how do we choose?
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[SPEAKER_01]: Where we're putting our energy in our friendships?
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[SPEAKER_01]: Where do we want to spend our personal time with people?
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[SPEAKER_00]: I love all of that.
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[SPEAKER_00]: This point about shared spaces versus maybe something different.
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[SPEAKER_00]: Like a sleepover is Barbara private.
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[SPEAKER_00]: You don't have to have everybody at your sleepover, but you can still be decent to people at school.
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[SPEAKER_00]: I sometimes think people are scared to be too nice and a shared space because they're afraid that they're giving someone the wrong idea, like leading a friend on kind of, but it that takes some maturity to realize you can be pleasant and friendly and stay happy birthday to someone at school and invite them to do stuff in something in school.
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[SPEAKER_00]: It doesn't mean that you're obligated to have them head your birthday party from now until the end of time.
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[SPEAKER_00]: Right.
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[SPEAKER_00]: But it is tricky.
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[SPEAKER_00]: And you do sometimes get these parents that do push.
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[SPEAKER_00]: I wonder when I read the question, if part of Nicole's concern and I get it and I share it, I've shared Nicole's concern if this is it is as much about her not wanting other parents to think she's being a bad mom or a bad community member or a bad person by allowing her daughter to not invite someone over.
15:00
[SPEAKER_00]: So Nicole's daughter has these couple of girls who have reached out for plans, doesn't Nicole's daughter have the right to not be interested.
15:07
[SPEAKER_00]: I think we agree she does, but I get Nicole's discomfort with knowing that there's probably some other mom out there saying, hey, did you reach out to someone so?
15:17
[SPEAKER_00]: And that could say, yeah, but she didn't respond or she said she's busy.
15:21
[SPEAKER_00]: Oh, did you ask her if she's busy next weekend?
15:23
[SPEAKER_00]: Oh, yeah, she said she's busy every weekend.
15:25
[SPEAKER_00]: Do you think there is a piece of that of the mom pressure of worrying that the other moms think they want to pad mom?
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[SPEAKER_00]: She is absolutely.
15:35
[SPEAKER_01]: Absolutely, because we do sometimes make these judgment calls without quite understanding the whole story.
15:41
[SPEAKER_01]: There's a lot of pressure.
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[SPEAKER_01]: I see it all the time, memes and posts, be the parent that encouraged your kid to sit with the kids.
15:49
[SPEAKER_01]: And I love that.
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[SPEAKER_01]: I love the love behind those things, but I also see that there's a lot more complexity there.
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[SPEAKER_01]: And I even personally have had this backfire on me.
16:00
[SPEAKER_01]: One of my daughters, my oldest daughter, who is a really empathic girl.
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[SPEAKER_01]: And she
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[SPEAKER_01]: really wants to do good.
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[SPEAKER_01]: She came out of the womb wanting to do no harm.
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[SPEAKER_01]: So this is a gentle soul.
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[SPEAKER_01]: And so one of her birthdays is pre-COVID.
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[SPEAKER_01]: They're trying to have that accepting lunchroom table or anybody could sit there.
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[SPEAKER_01]: What happened?
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[SPEAKER_01]: And was that ended up being a massive table?
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[SPEAKER_01]: There's like sixteen kids now because they were so accepting.
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[SPEAKER_01]: It's so welcoming, which is beautiful.
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[SPEAKER_01]: But then comes the birthday party.
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[SPEAKER_01]: And she does not know what to do.
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[SPEAKER_01]: I haven't actualized any of this.
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[SPEAKER_01]: I don't invite everybody what happened.
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[SPEAKER_01]: I'm at a loss too, because I don't know what to do.
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[SPEAKER_01]: I really want you to do what you feel is right.
16:43
[SPEAKER_01]: What she chose to do was invite a lot more people than she would have.
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[SPEAKER_01]: that gets hard.
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[SPEAKER_01]: As it turns out, we have the party and there's some girls within that group that don't like each other that much.
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[SPEAKER_01]: So the more kids you have, the more chances there are for drama.
16:58
[SPEAKER_01]: So I would love to say that that was a drama free party.
17:01
[SPEAKER_01]: But no, there was drama in that party.
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[SPEAKER_01]: So had she really tried not to please everybody and not hurt anybody feeling she might have invited just four girls over.
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[SPEAKER_01]: the much more peaceful party and instead of ten or more, and then there was conflict ensued.
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[SPEAKER_01]: There is no easy way to navigate this.
17:21
[SPEAKER_00]: No, there just isn't actually got a comment that relates to what you're saying from my Facebook group.
17:27
[SPEAKER_00]: I have a private Facebook group called Dior Nina the group and sometimes I'll preview the questions on there just so that people in my group can comment if they want to.
17:35
[SPEAKER_00]: It's been a fun way to get other opinions that says my daughter, seventeen years old, know someone who's very nice, but is essentially socially awkward and has some major emotional issues that come out often.
17:47
[SPEAKER_00]: They were both on a team where my daughter was the captain, her senior year.
17:51
[SPEAKER_00]: The mother is very nice and rightfully is a strong advocate for her daughter's social life.
17:56
[SPEAKER_00]: She encouraged social interaction between our daughters when oftentimes my daughter was reluctant and did so grudgingly.
18:03
[SPEAKER_00]: For example, her mother called me and put me on the spot to include her daughter in my daughter's group of friends last day of school activity.
18:11
[SPEAKER_00]: So we're talking seniors in high school.
18:12
[SPEAKER_00]: So it's a little beyond the age of your book, but still you could see how some of these actions never really end.
18:18
[SPEAKER_00]: So she forced the daughter to do something with her daughter on the last day of school.
18:22
[SPEAKER_00]: It worked out because my daughter is very good nature.
18:25
[SPEAKER_00]: And I told her that while they don't have to be best friends, she should be kind.
18:28
[SPEAKER_00]: I just wondering at what point so your daughter in the case of the birthday party this commenters daughter in the case of the last day of school activity were both really empathetic and kind gentle souls.
18:40
[SPEAKER_00]: I still also want to advocate for it would be okay for this senior in high school would be okay for your daughter to
18:48
[SPEAKER_00]: not want to have every single person at their birthday party or not want to have every single person at the last day of school.
18:53
[SPEAKER_00]: Well, maybe a last day of school activity is a barbershare space example, but not if it was a private thing.
18:58
[SPEAKER_00]: It sounds like this was not a actual school activity.
19:00
[SPEAKER_00]: It was a at home private thing.
19:02
[SPEAKER_00]: I don't know if we do people a disservice by always including them when they're not really wanted.
19:07
[SPEAKER_00]: Do we keep them from actually meeting their friends?
19:10
[SPEAKER_00]: Like I want to speak to the couple of girls in our original question who are trying to get in with this click of four.
19:15
[SPEAKER_00]: I wish I could take them aside and be like girls.
19:18
[SPEAKER_00]: These aren't your people and you are barking up the wrong tree by trying to continue to have plants with someone who's not even responding on text.
19:26
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, maybe their mom's going to make them respond, but is that a real friend?
19:30
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, ideally, everybody has a friend that really wants to be their friend.
19:35
[SPEAKER_01]: So I think the earlier that parents can start talking to their kids about not everybody's going to like you.
19:42
[SPEAKER_01]: You're not always going to be included and not every friendship is going to feel like a fit.
19:48
[SPEAKER_01]: But you are perfectly okay as you are.
19:50
[SPEAKER_01]: But keeping those things in mind is really important because I do think we put a lot of expectations on other people's kids.
19:59
[SPEAKER_01]: Often happens to be those much more, you know, gentle souls, lower key, highly sensitive kids that get to a point where they just can't take anymore on their shoulders.
20:08
[SPEAKER_01]: I know my daughter felt that way.
20:10
[SPEAKER_01]: In fact, for her, COVID was kind of a blessing.
20:13
[SPEAKER_01]: For her that was such a relief to have a
20:16
[SPEAKER_01]: break from that and when things were safe, but we were still not fully back in school.
20:21
[SPEAKER_01]: She got to hang out with just the people she wanted to kind of guilt free.
20:25
[SPEAKER_01]: So I think that's a really great science example of what happens if there's not all this pressure on kids that they can maybe just really pursue the relationships they want to pursue.
20:36
[SPEAKER_01]: But again, that's a balance.
20:37
[SPEAKER_01]: I think there are kids that are not giving kids a chance that really deserve a chance.
20:43
[SPEAKER_01]: So it might start in that safe space, that shared space, giving kids a chance and you never know.
20:49
[SPEAKER_01]: There will be friendships that grow out of that into deeper levels.
20:52
[SPEAKER_00]: It is so tricky and it's like each situation is different.
20:55
[SPEAKER_00]: I like what you said about the pressure that we parents put on other people's kids to make our kids feel okay.
21:01
[SPEAKER_00]: I have four kids.
21:02
[SPEAKER_00]: I've seen a lot of things and cash would be easier if my kids are, you know, we're always included on the group text.
21:08
[SPEAKER_00]: We're always included in the outing.
21:10
[SPEAKER_00]: Just when make life easier, but they wouldn't learn anything.
21:13
[SPEAKER_00]: They wouldn't learn those resiliency skills.
21:15
[SPEAKER_00]: They wouldn't know the difference I think between like what you described really well in the book as a healthy friendship and accepting friendship, a friendship that feels good versus something that's not, you know, you're if you're trying to hurt.
21:26
[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, there's something that says something.
21:29
[SPEAKER_00]: What would we say to Nicole?
21:31
[SPEAKER_00]: So her kid has now, it sounds to me like ignored these couple of girls are trying to like get in on the group, at least to make plans with her daughter.
21:41
[SPEAKER_00]: Her daughter's basically not answering the text.
21:43
[SPEAKER_00]: How should her daughter handle these texts?
21:45
[SPEAKER_01]: And this is never easy.
21:47
[SPEAKER_01]: Kids will ask it.
21:48
[SPEAKER_01]: Say she just does a no thanks.
21:52
[SPEAKER_01]: No thank you on the text response.
21:54
[SPEAKER_01]: There's a good chance that that other kid is going to ask why.
21:58
[SPEAKER_01]: It don't world.
21:59
[SPEAKER_01]: We know that no is no and you could say no thanks.
22:02
[SPEAKER_01]: And let's move on in the preteen in the kid world.
22:06
[SPEAKER_01]: You could say no thanks as kindly as you can.
22:09
[SPEAKER_01]: But there's a chance that that other kid is good like, well, why not?
22:12
[SPEAKER_01]: could see why her daughter might be a little hesitant to go there.
22:16
[SPEAKER_01]: However, I think it's a great skill to learn.
22:19
[SPEAKER_01]: No, thanks is no thanks.
22:21
[SPEAKER_01]: I think that's worth the first try.
22:23
[SPEAKER_01]: If she really does it, really truly does not want to enter this relationship, saying no, thank you is a good place to start.
22:30
[SPEAKER_00]: But even that isn't simple sometimes.
22:33
[SPEAKER_00]: So hard.
22:33
[SPEAKER_00]: I would probably soften it with it may be it's a white lie, but it's I'm so busy right now.
22:39
[SPEAKER_00]: I can't make any plans right now.
22:40
[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, just and so it's not like a hard no, but it's maybe just a not right now.
22:45
[SPEAKER_00]: I just can't feel anything right now or you know, or I'll ask my mom and then maybe
22:49
[SPEAKER_00]: Mom says we're so busy right now.
22:51
[SPEAKER_00]: It's easier if it's kid to kids.
22:52
[SPEAKER_00]: A little harder when the mom gets involved.
22:54
[SPEAKER_00]: You know, I've made that mistake before somebody did me a huge favor.
22:57
[SPEAKER_00]: And sometimes you don't know, I'm better about it with my younger kids.
23:00
[SPEAKER_00]: But with my one of my kids, I was still the one reaching out for plans.
23:03
[SPEAKER_00]: Like I didn't know it was time yet.
23:05
[SPEAKER_00]: Sometimes you need someone to to tell you.
23:07
[SPEAKER_00]: I reached out to a fellow mom.
23:08
[SPEAKER_00]: Oh, it was so and so free Saturday night.
23:10
[SPEAKER_00]: My kid wants to hang out with your kid.
23:12
[SPEAKER_00]: The mom said to me really nicely.
23:14
[SPEAKER_00]: I would advise as anyone.
23:16
[SPEAKER_00]: I will have my kid reach out to your kid.
23:18
[SPEAKER_00]: Sounds great.
23:19
[SPEAKER_00]: I'll have my kid reach out to your kid.
23:21
[SPEAKER_00]: Her kid never reached out to my kid.
23:23
[SPEAKER_00]: I didn't tell my kid that I think I don't even think I told my kid this conversation ensued.
23:28
[SPEAKER_00]: But when her kid didn't reach out to my kid, that was a cue to me.
23:31
[SPEAKER_00]: This kid is not interested in my kid.
23:33
[SPEAKER_00]: It was the most gentle.
23:34
[SPEAKER_00]: It worked out nicely because my kid didn't even know about it.
23:37
[SPEAKER_00]: But I was able to not continue to encourage my kid.
23:40
[SPEAKER_00]: Oh, hey, you should reach out to this one.
23:42
[SPEAKER_00]: see if this kid's free because I got the cue from the mom number one we're not making plans for our kids anymore it's time for the kids to do this themselves number two if my kids interested your kid will hear from mine and we didn't hear from them that was okay point taken they're not interested you can't force a friendship
23:59
[SPEAKER_01]: No.
24:00
[SPEAKER_01]: And there is that funny period of time where goes from parents, coordinate things to the kids.
24:05
[SPEAKER_01]: And that doesn't happen like at the same time for everybody.
24:08
[SPEAKER_01]: So I loved how you handled that.
24:10
[SPEAKER_01]: That just kind of realising, oh, okay, we're there because you don't know sometimes whether you're there or not.
24:15
[SPEAKER_01]: And you're there with some kids and you're not there with other kids.
24:17
[SPEAKER_01]: But yet at some point there is that shift where it's the kids communicating directly with the kids, which is a relief to so many parents in so many ways.
24:26
[SPEAKER_01]: when they said I love that you I love the idea of softening that you said so there is a way to soften that and my kids often when they're stuck with what to say in a text you know we'll kind of we'll talk that through together and I encourage you know my kids and other parents to encourage their kids if they don't ever quite know how to respond
24:43
[SPEAKER_01]: It's a great teaching moment.
24:45
[SPEAKER_01]: Let's connect about how to maybe respond to that.
24:47
[SPEAKER_01]: And you know, text has many downsize, but one of the good sides is it gives you a chance to think about your response.
24:53
[SPEAKER_01]: We're all this used to happen like a live face to face.
24:56
[SPEAKER_01]: It doesn't as much anymore, but we have a moment before we respond to think about what can we say and how might that come across to the person getting this message?
25:05
[SPEAKER_00]: Another huge thing that techs brings to the social plan making us who's included on the group text and who's yes.
25:11
[SPEAKER_00]: Being put on the group text is like a gateway to plants.
25:15
[SPEAKER_00]: And if you're not on the group text, whether it's a group on snap, as the kids get older, I've learned at least with my kids.
25:21
[SPEAKER_00]: I know it's different for in every community, but the kids they barely text, like regular text, they have snap groups.
25:27
[SPEAKER_00]: And if you're in the snap group, well, then you know what the plan is for Sunday afternoon.
25:31
[SPEAKER_00]: If you're not in the text or the snap group, you don't know what the plan.
25:34
[SPEAKER_00]: And no one's asking each other directly per se.
25:36
[SPEAKER_00]: If you're on it, you know about it.
25:38
[SPEAKER_00]: And if you're not, you don't.
25:39
[SPEAKER_00]: And it's, oh, gosh, I'm getting on that group text might be a key that a lot of parents don't even realize is happening.
25:46
[SPEAKER_00]: Oh, and it's stressful.
25:47
[SPEAKER_01]: Like if you really want to be included, but you're not, I mean, this is all
25:52
[SPEAKER_01]: much more intense than it was when we were going up and it was it was simplified and face to face and we didn't know about the things we weren't invited to so I feel a lot of happy for kids today because this is so tricky that I'm barred with this twenty four seven there's a handful of kids that make
26:10
[SPEAKER_01]: Two or three good friends in elementary and that lasts all day through middle school, but the majority, there's huge changes all the time just to constantly in a state of flux.
26:19
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, there is this awesome study that came out of UCLA.
26:22
[SPEAKER_01]: They followed six thousand sixth graders through in middle school.
26:27
[SPEAKER_01]: two thirds of them in their first year middle school kind of jumped friend groups and changed friendships.
26:31
[SPEAKER_01]: So the instability is the norm.
26:34
[SPEAKER_01]: And as parents are watching this, it breaks our hearts sometimes because we'll see those times where our kids is kind of floundering in between groups and spaces and they're finding their way.
26:44
[SPEAKER_01]: And that's exactly what they're doing.
26:46
[SPEAKER_01]: Is it they're trying to find their way?
26:48
[SPEAKER_01]: They're trying to learn these skills that we started on the, you know, the beginning of this call.
26:52
[SPEAKER_01]: They're trying to figure out, way, who am I and, and where do I actually feel like I fit?
26:57
[SPEAKER_01]: How do I connect and, and it's not easy, you know, and there's lots of ups and downs in that process.
27:03
[SPEAKER_00]: We've spent a lot of actually this call thinking about the kids who might be leaving others out and all that, but how do you learn to recognize true friendship if you haven't gone through that experience?
27:13
[SPEAKER_00]: We as parents cannot save our kids from every hurt feeling from every birthday party they were invited to.
27:19
[SPEAKER_00]: I have learned that the hard way.
27:20
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm saying that
27:22
[SPEAKER_00]: But the smile in my face because I've had some couple ugly experiences where I got to involved.
27:27
[SPEAKER_00]: I literally shutter an embarrassment thinking about it.
27:29
[SPEAKER_00]: Because I would never do that now.
27:31
[SPEAKER_00]: I've been a parent for a long time.
27:33
[SPEAKER_00]: I've made some mistakes.
27:34
[SPEAKER_00]: Those mistakes probably robbed my kids and they learned it eventually once I realized I've overstepped.
27:40
[SPEAKER_00]: But there is such a thing.
27:41
[SPEAKER_00]: And your book, I just wish every kid would read this book.
27:44
[SPEAKER_00]: But I know you use Sheila at the book just to make it easier to write, but you point out in the book.
27:49
[SPEAKER_00]: It's really for all kids to learn skills.
27:52
[SPEAKER_00]: They might otherwise skip if their parents don't let them experience it.
27:57
[SPEAKER_01]: And I have done it tuning.
27:59
[SPEAKER_01]: I've totally overstep sometimes and assumed I knew the whole story and there's always more to the story.
28:06
[SPEAKER_01]: So when we see something that we feel is a slide on our kid or something, there's always more going on there.
28:13
[SPEAKER_01]: So I think it's important to realize there's two sides to everything and things are always more complex than they first appear.
28:21
[SPEAKER_01]: Just buckle up, let's sail through these years together and keep loving your kids, keep helping them if they're lacking in a certain area.
28:28
[SPEAKER_01]: You'd say they haven't learned the simple thing of space bubbles, you know, that someone needs a little bit of space or say, yeah, they struggle with jealousy or they, they're not very trustworthy.
28:37
[SPEAKER_01]: They tell a lot of lies.
28:38
[SPEAKER_01]: So all these little things.
28:40
[SPEAKER_01]: At some point, you have leaking to their friendships and cause all sorts of interesting things to go on.
28:45
[SPEAKER_01]: So we can just help them learn that their kids, their pre-teens, they're learning these things and even those most painful things, even you and I overstepping our role as parents, we clearly learn from that.
28:56
[SPEAKER_01]: We learn some great lessons from that and we're going to do it differently next time.
29:00
[SPEAKER_00]: And you, I think Nicole, our letterwriter can hopefully feel better knowing that her daughter, making her own choices and sometimes not maybe doing it as nicely as she should is something she will also, she the daughter will also have to learn from if you leave out enough people over time if you are too clicky over time.
29:17
[SPEAKER_00]: the universe answers and people not wanting to hang out with you.
29:20
[SPEAKER_00]: So sometimes you learn the hard way, and the parents can't always direct that either.
29:25
[SPEAKER_00]: Like she asks, how can I really demand my daughter be inclusive and kind?
29:29
[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, you can try as best you can, but can't really control how your kids act all the time.
29:33
[SPEAKER_00]: Jessica mentions nine friendship truths.
29:36
[SPEAKER_00]: I picked my favorite, and it's friendship truth number nine, and it is.
29:41
[SPEAKER_00]: You choose whichever friendships to grow.
29:43
[SPEAKER_00]: Grow the healthy ones.
29:45
[SPEAKER_00]: I think that is so beautiful.
29:47
[SPEAKER_00]: It's what I would say to these two girls who are texting Nicole's daughter.
29:52
[SPEAKER_00]: If I could talk to them, right, I would say pay attention to the people who want to hang out with you.
29:56
[SPEAKER_00]: Grow the healthy ones.
29:58
[SPEAKER_00]: You choose which of your friendships to grow grow the healthy ones.
30:02
[SPEAKER_00]: Yes, absolutely.
30:04
[SPEAKER_00]: That is all for today.
30:05
[SPEAKER_00]: I want to thank you Jessica so much for being here.
30:08
[SPEAKER_01]: Thank you so much for having me.
30:10
[SPEAKER_01]: This is such a great conversation.
30:11
[SPEAKER_01]: I love this question and I love all the work you're doing and this friendship stuff is tricky.
30:16
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, and we're all learning as we go.
30:18
[SPEAKER_00]: So thank you for all your work.
30:19
[SPEAKER_00]: You could find a form to ask your own anonymous question for a future episode on Nina.
30:24
[SPEAKER_00]: That's n.com.
30:25
[SPEAKER_00]: I'd love for you to join my Facebook group.
30:27
[SPEAKER_00]: Dear Nina, the group.
30:29
[SPEAKER_00]: If you have time to rate and review the podcast, or even better, tell a friend I'd be so grateful.
30:34
[SPEAKER_00]: Remember, when our friendships are going well, we're happier all around.