Latest / Rosters to Rings Podcast / Building Big League Bats with James Rowson

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Building Big League Bats with James Rowson · Rosters to Rings Podcast

• 0:01
  Speaker 1: Welcome back to Rosters, to Rings. I am your host,
• 0:04
  Speaker 1: fad Levigne, and I am honored to be joined today
• 0:06
  Speaker 1: by a dear friend of mine, James Rowson. A native
• 0:09
  Speaker 1: of Mount Vernon, New York, James was selected by the
• 0:12
  Speaker 1: Seattle Mariners in the ninth round of the nineteen ninety
• 0:15
  Speaker 1: four Major.
• 0:16
  Speaker 2: League Baseball Draft.
• 0:17
  Speaker 1: After three years in the minor leagues with the Mariners
• 0:20
  Speaker 1: and the Yankees, James ultimately made it a seamless transition
• 0:23
  Speaker 1: to coaching. After starting his coaching career at Hillsborough Community College,
• 0:28
  Speaker 1: James spent eight seasons as a minor league hitting coach
• 0:31
  Speaker 1: for the Angels, Yankees, and Cubs before making his major
• 0:35
  Speaker 1: league debut as a Chicago Cubs hitting coach in twenty twelve.
• 0:40
  Speaker 1: Over the next fifteen seasons, James further establish himself as
• 0:44
  Speaker 1: a successful minor league and major league hitting coach, spanning
• 0:47
  Speaker 1: stints with the Cubs, Twins, Marlins, Tigers, and now back
• 0:51
  Speaker 1: with the Yankees. James has been a bonafide competitive advantage
• 0:54
  Speaker 1: throughout his career, contributing to iconic franchises, historic team offenses,
• 0:59
  Speaker 1: future Hall of famers, and very dynamic big league managers.
• 1:03
  Speaker 1: James welcome to Rosters to Rings.
• 1:06
  Speaker 2: Oh thank you that I appreciate you having me on
• 1:08
  Speaker 2: and excited for this conversation.
• 1:10
  Speaker 1: Yeah, as am I James has been long long in
• 1:13
  Speaker 1: the coming. James, we ask everybody who joins the show
• 1:17
  Speaker 1: just to share, how did you fall in love with
• 1:20
  Speaker 1: sports as a kid? What is your sports passion origin story?
• 1:24
  Speaker 2: It starts with my dad. It just starts with being
• 1:27
  Speaker 2: you know, young, growing up in Mount Vernon, and you know,
• 1:30
  Speaker 2: I was exposed to a lot of sports. So it
• 1:32
  Speaker 2: wasn't just baseball for me as a kid. Like I
• 1:33
  Speaker 2: loved baseball, football, basketball, ran track a little in high school.
• 1:39
  Speaker 2: So like if it was sports, I was involved. And
• 1:42
  Speaker 2: my dad was that way. My dad was a he
• 1:43
  Speaker 2: loved football growing up and he also kind of loved
• 1:46
  Speaker 2: track and field. But baseball was the thing that drew
• 1:48
  Speaker 2: me the most. I think it was the one that
• 1:50
  Speaker 2: I started to have the most success at as a
• 1:52
  Speaker 2: young kid, and then I just wanted to keep playing.
• 1:55
  Speaker 1: James. I've heard in other interviews and conversations you and
• 1:58
  Speaker 1: I've had, you've talked about the importance football played in
• 2:01
  Speaker 1: your upbringing and the toughness, mentality and the resiliency that
• 2:04
  Speaker 1: you take into your job.
• 2:05
  Speaker 2: Can you talk a little bit about that. Yeah, for me,
• 2:09
  Speaker 2: it was still to this day like the most dynamic
• 2:11
  Speaker 2: sport for me. Football probably taught me more than any
• 2:15
  Speaker 2: of the sport growing up because of like the tough mentality,
• 2:18
  Speaker 2: like you know, you've got to get up, You've got
• 2:20
  Speaker 2: to get on to the next play, it's happening quick,
• 2:22
  Speaker 2: and football at the time is so fast, like you
• 2:24
  Speaker 2: have no time to think about the last one. It's
• 2:26
  Speaker 2: also like that mental toughness combined with that physical toughness,
• 2:31
  Speaker 2: and I think like that carries on like in life.
• 2:34
  Speaker 2: So football was kind of for me growing up more
• 2:36
  Speaker 2: like the precursor of life, like the you know, get
• 2:39
  Speaker 2: up when you get kicked down mentality, and also the
• 2:41
  Speaker 2: mentality of like you got to keep fighting forward no
• 2:43
  Speaker 2: matter what happens. And I think I take that football
• 2:46
  Speaker 2: mentality probably more than most into baseball.
• 2:49
  Speaker 1: For me, Well, there's no sport where there's more failure
• 2:54
  Speaker 1: on a daily basis. And I hate to say, there's
• 2:56
  Speaker 1: no position that has impacted more greatly than the hitting
• 2:58
  Speaker 1: coach position and offensive players in the game. We often
• 3:03
  Speaker 1: quip and say, if you succeed thirty percent of the time,
• 3:06
  Speaker 1: you're in a historically could stretch. But the reality is
• 3:08
  Speaker 1: with the major league batting average, you know, dipping into
• 3:11
  Speaker 1: the low two forties. As a major league hitting coach,
• 3:14
  Speaker 1: you're as much psychologist, probably as a technician, because guys
• 3:18
  Speaker 1: are now if they succeed more than twenty four percent
• 3:21
  Speaker 1: of the time, which is meanings they're failing seventy six
• 3:23
  Speaker 1: percent of the time, they're actually above average in the
• 3:26
  Speaker 1: major leagues.
• 3:28
  Speaker 2: Absolutely, I mean to your point, I mean, if hitting
• 3:30
  Speaker 2: is a failing business, but I think that's that's where
• 3:33
  Speaker 2: that mentality comes in. I think, like in order to
• 3:36
  Speaker 2: do either whether it to be a hitting coach or
• 3:38
  Speaker 2: even just like the hitters themselves, they're in a position
• 3:42
  Speaker 2: where they're trying to succeed in a space where there's
• 3:44
  Speaker 2: not much area for success. And honestly, you know, as
• 3:47
  Speaker 2: a hitter, you can do everything correct and still fail.
• 3:51
  Speaker 2: We have guys, you know, hit the ball hard, swing
• 3:53
  Speaker 2: at the pitch they want to, and hit a line
• 3:55
  Speaker 2: drive right at somebody and they're out. So it's not
• 3:57
  Speaker 2: a successful measure in terms of the game or production.
• 4:00
  Speaker 2: But yet we have to figure out how to find
• 4:02
  Speaker 2: success in our process. And I think that's part of,
• 4:06
  Speaker 2: you know, the hitting coach mentality and part of getting
• 4:08
  Speaker 2: the hitters to understand like you have to worry about
• 4:10
  Speaker 2: doing everything correctly, looking at your process, seeing if you
• 4:14
  Speaker 2: have progress, and then using that to move forward. But
• 4:17
  Speaker 2: if you just measure whether I got a hit or not,
• 4:20
  Speaker 2: that's tough in this business, and that's not the measure
• 4:22
  Speaker 2: of success.
• 4:24
  Speaker 1: You know, James have often thought like the hitting programs
• 4:28
  Speaker 1: are the most difficult to objectively evaluate because, as you said,
• 4:33
  Speaker 1: we talk about the process, but then we send hitters
• 4:36
  Speaker 1: down because they're not hitting well enough. And I just
• 4:39
  Speaker 1: wonder if a better way to look at it is,
• 4:42
  Speaker 1: you know, twofold one is from a front office perspective,
• 4:45
  Speaker 1: are we providing the coaches and the players with the
• 4:48
  Speaker 1: absolute best resources for them to excel? And then from
• 4:51
  Speaker 1: a coaching perspective, are we implementing those resources to allow
• 4:56
  Speaker 1: the players to be the best versions in themselves? And
• 4:58
  Speaker 1: then from the player perspective, they invested in those resources
• 5:01
  Speaker 1: to try to challenge themselves to reach hight they never
• 5:04
  Speaker 1: thought they could reach. And if we check across the
• 5:06
  Speaker 1: box on all three of those, I think it's a
• 5:08
  Speaker 1: successful program. The reality, though, is in the heat of
• 5:12
  Speaker 1: the battle, our eyes do gravitationally come back to those
• 5:15
  Speaker 1: those tried and true the batting average on bass slugging percentage.
• 5:18
  Speaker 1: We now have WRC plus we have war and those
• 5:21
  Speaker 1: types of things to evaluate players. But as you said,
• 5:24
  Speaker 1: you know, whether it's a kid playing little league or
• 5:27
  Speaker 1: it's a major leaguer, we're hunting those quality at bats,
• 5:30
  Speaker 1: and so the line out to the second basement is
• 5:32
  Speaker 1: actually a positive outcome. When you move the guy from
• 5:35
  Speaker 1: second to third with nobody out or scorn from third
• 5:37
  Speaker 1: with less than two those are positive outcomes, even though
• 5:40
  Speaker 1: sometimes in the books it shows over one. It is
• 5:43
  Speaker 1: tough to say disciplined when you're evaluating a system at
• 5:47
  Speaker 1: large to really evaluate on those process points. But I
• 5:50
  Speaker 1: just curious your thoughts on you know, when we say
• 5:54
  Speaker 1: we're trying to successfully look at things through the process perspective,
• 5:58
  Speaker 1: how do you hold yourself, your players, but then also
• 6:01
  Speaker 1: maybe the front office guys accountable to that rather than
• 6:04
  Speaker 1: leaking into the space of looking at just the results.
• 6:08
  Speaker 2: Yeah. So that's that's great. I mean, and we unpacked
• 6:10
  Speaker 2: a lot right there. The biggest part of that to
• 6:12
  Speaker 2: me is, like, you know, being able to understand you know,
• 6:15
  Speaker 2: the technology and the different things that the game is
• 6:17
  Speaker 2: bringing on now. Like so, when I first started as
• 6:19
  Speaker 2: a hitting coach, we were not nearly as advanced in
• 6:23
  Speaker 2: terms of all the information and the things we have
• 6:25
  Speaker 2: now that honestly help hitters. I mean, whether it's tech,
• 6:28
  Speaker 2: whether it's info that different things that are out there.
• 6:31
  Speaker 2: But at the same time, it still comes down to,
• 6:34
  Speaker 2: you know, how do you simplify this and allow a
• 6:36
  Speaker 2: player to go out there and perform? And I think
• 6:38
  Speaker 2: we have to, Like so from the hitting coach standpoint,
• 6:40
  Speaker 2: I have to take all that information, put it together,
• 6:43
  Speaker 2: and try to put it into a simple concept of
• 6:46
  Speaker 2: you know, I'm going to look for this pitch in
• 6:47
  Speaker 2: this area and go out and hit the ball hard.
• 6:49
  Speaker 2: And that is the communication between coach and player, But
• 6:53
  Speaker 2: that's also the communication organization wide to your point of
• 6:56
  Speaker 2: our analysts that are sending information down to us and
• 6:59
  Speaker 2: being able to kind of digest that from them, and
• 7:03
  Speaker 2: then for me to take that information and try to
• 7:06
  Speaker 2: get that to the player. I think that's the key.
• 7:08
  Speaker 2: The key is using it, using the entire organization to
• 7:12
  Speaker 2: ultimately get the player to where we want him to be,
• 7:14
  Speaker 2: because we all want the player to succeed. We all
• 7:16
  Speaker 2: want the organization to succeed, and I think like being
• 7:18
  Speaker 2: able to collaborate as a group is kind of the
• 7:21
  Speaker 2: most important thing. Now to your point, I think organizations
• 7:25
  Speaker 2: that are aligned tend to be the best when it
• 7:27
  Speaker 2: comes to this because they're able to have those conversations
• 7:30
  Speaker 2: across the board, ultimately thinking about the player's success and
• 7:34
  Speaker 2: then which kind of relates to the organization's success.
• 7:39
  Speaker 1: And James, I'd be curious your perspective on this as
• 7:42
  Speaker 1: somebody who spent time in the minor league system as
• 7:45
  Speaker 1: a coach, it allows for greater continuity for you. You
• 7:49
  Speaker 1: kind of grew up in the Yankees organization as a coach.
• 7:52
  Speaker 1: You started at Hillsborough and I'd love to hear your
• 7:54
  Speaker 1: story there, like when you were playing, at what point
• 7:58
  Speaker 1: did you know that you had caught the coach and
• 8:00
  Speaker 1: why did you end up starting your career at Hillsboro
• 8:03
  Speaker 1: Community College.
• 8:05
  Speaker 2: You know, it's funny. Sometimes you don't catch the coaching bugs.
• 8:08
  Speaker 2: Sometimes it's given to you in the sense of you're
• 8:11
  Speaker 2: not playing well anymore. They decided that, hey, you know what,
• 8:14
  Speaker 2: I think you're going to be a good coach when
• 8:17
  Speaker 2: you and when you hear that as a player, you
• 8:19
  Speaker 2: kind of got to look in the mirror and say, okay,
• 8:21
  Speaker 2: I got to think about this, right. But the cool
• 8:23
  Speaker 2: part for me was I would that was my goal
• 8:26
  Speaker 2: was to play, but hitting was hard for me. And
• 8:29
  Speaker 2: I always go back to that. I'm not the guy
• 8:31
  Speaker 2: who's gonna say, oh, well I got heard, is no?
• 8:33
  Speaker 2: You know. The reality was I struggled hitting as a player,
• 8:37
  Speaker 2: but it was something that I really wanted to do.
• 8:39
  Speaker 2: So because I struggled at it, I took on this
• 8:42
  Speaker 2: this relentless approach to want to learn it. I wanted
• 8:45
  Speaker 2: to learn how it worked, who did what. I had
• 8:48
  Speaker 2: some really good hitting coaches, you know, coming up in coordinators.
• 8:52
  Speaker 2: I had Gary Dembo, who was like my hitting coordinator
• 8:55
  Speaker 2: when I was in New York. And I also had
• 8:56
  Speaker 2: Mark Newman, who was kind of a big mentor of
• 8:59
  Speaker 2: mine and really did a lot for me in baseball
• 9:02
  Speaker 2: but also helped me mentally go through things and kind
• 9:05
  Speaker 2: of got me to continue to chase that coaching bug.
• 9:08
  Speaker 2: Mark told me early on as a player, he said, Hey,
• 9:10
  Speaker 2: when you're done, when you're done playing, you know, I
• 9:12
  Speaker 2: want you to come back and coach. And I wasn't
• 9:15
  Speaker 2: sure if I wanted to do that. So once I
• 9:16
  Speaker 2: got done playing, a friend of mine was the head
• 9:19
  Speaker 2: coach at Hillsborough Community College in Tampa, and he asked me.
• 9:22
  Speaker 2: His name is Gary Calhoun. He asked me if i'd
• 9:24
  Speaker 2: come out and helped the club. So I said, sure,
• 9:27
  Speaker 2: I'll go out. And I didn't know if I wanted
• 9:29
  Speaker 2: to coach, but I wanted to still be around baseball
• 9:32
  Speaker 2: at that time, so I went and did that, and
• 9:35
  Speaker 2: it was amazing for me. After coaching there, I knew
• 9:40
  Speaker 2: that I wanted to coach because there was something so
• 9:43
  Speaker 2: rewarding about helping other guys get to their goals and
• 9:47
  Speaker 2: their dreams and what they wanted to do, even on
• 9:49
  Speaker 2: the college level. To see players that were struggling and
• 9:52
  Speaker 2: be able to help them with something that could help
• 9:54
  Speaker 2: them succeed. I found that more rewarding helping others, and
• 9:58
  Speaker 2: it got me outside of myself. When you play, all
• 10:01
  Speaker 2: you think about is yourself and what you have to
• 10:02
  Speaker 2: do and how you go through your daily process. But coaching,
• 10:06
  Speaker 2: you have thirteen guys now in the big lace to
• 10:08
  Speaker 2: think about. It's not just one guy, it's all those guys.
• 10:11
  Speaker 2: And at the same time you're trying to give them
• 10:13
  Speaker 2: all something to get them going, and I just find,
• 10:15
  Speaker 2: you know, helping others get to their point was more
• 10:18
  Speaker 2: rewarding for me, So coaching felt natural.
• 10:21
  Speaker 1: James. I think you just subtly hit on one of
• 10:23
  Speaker 1: your superpowers, you know, in a job in which failure
• 10:27
  Speaker 1: reigned supreme. Unfortunately, a lot of hitting coaches retreat into
• 10:31
  Speaker 1: a space of it being about them, and You've always
• 10:34
  Speaker 1: given yourself wholly to the players around you, to the
• 10:37
  Speaker 1: staff around you. It's one of your calling cards, and
• 10:39
  Speaker 1: it's what makes you great today and what will make
• 10:42
  Speaker 1: you great throughout your career. I also just want to
• 10:44
  Speaker 1: highlight one other thing you just said there, which was
• 10:47
  Speaker 1: about the importance of continuity and communication from top to
• 10:50
  Speaker 1: bottom in an organization. One thing the listener may not
• 10:53
  Speaker 1: really know is that one of the evolutions in building
• 10:56
  Speaker 1: out coaching staffs at the major league level right now
• 10:58
  Speaker 1: is we're hunting guys who have worked in the college spaces,
• 11:02
  Speaker 1: or they have their own hitting programs elsewhere, and they
• 11:05
  Speaker 1: have a social media presence, and we're putting together staffs
• 11:09
  Speaker 1: which by and large are exceptionally talented, but maybe they
• 11:12
  Speaker 1: do eroad a little bit of that continuity. They don't
• 11:14
  Speaker 1: have the benefit of having worked in a minor league system,
• 11:17
  Speaker 1: have been under the mentorship of guys like Gary Denbo
• 11:20
  Speaker 1: and Mark Newman. It has to have served you well
• 11:23
  Speaker 1: now that you are back with the Yankees, to know
• 11:26
  Speaker 1: how their organization runs top to bottom and to be
• 11:29
  Speaker 1: such a cog in that wheel and the catalyst for
• 11:32
  Speaker 1: that communication and that continuity from top to bottom with
• 11:35
  Speaker 1: personal relationships throughout the minor leagues, throughout your tenure growing
• 11:39
  Speaker 1: up there, but all the way up to Brian Cashman.
• 11:41
  Speaker 1: That has to help you do your job as well
• 11:43
  Speaker 1: as you do it today.
• 11:45
  Speaker 2: Absolutely, you know, again to your point, I kind of
• 11:49
  Speaker 2: started way back with the Yankees early in my career,
• 11:52
  Speaker 2: but I also, you know, had those relationships built and
• 11:56
  Speaker 2: they grew over the years with cash with others in
• 11:59
  Speaker 2: the organization, a lot of the players, I mean even
• 12:02
  Speaker 2: players now. Aaron Judge, for instance, was in Charleston, you know,
• 12:06
  Speaker 2: low at when I first kind of met him, and
• 12:09
  Speaker 2: now I mean obviously what he's turned into the person
• 12:12
  Speaker 2: and the player and everything else. But like you know,
• 12:14
  Speaker 2: you do have that continuity, and you can look at
• 12:16
  Speaker 2: that with players across the board, staff members across the board.
• 12:19
  Speaker 2: I remember coming back here and there are so many
• 12:21
  Speaker 2: other staff members, support staff trainers, some of our guys
• 12:25
  Speaker 2: that do our analytics at the major league level, Like
• 12:27
  Speaker 2: these are people that I grew up in the game
• 12:30
  Speaker 2: with and they also grew up and got to the
• 12:32
  Speaker 2: levels they're at now. So there is a lot of continuity,
• 12:35
  Speaker 2: you know, for me right now in this position with
• 12:38
  Speaker 2: the group, and I love the fact that there is
• 12:40
  Speaker 2: this cohesiveness across the board where you can have these
• 12:43
  Speaker 2: conversations with different departments, across departments talking through players. We
• 12:47
  Speaker 2: have monthly meetings. I mean, you know, we see what
• 12:49
  Speaker 2: happens on the field, but we're having meetings with our
• 12:52
  Speaker 2: analytics group to kind of go through what they see
• 12:54
  Speaker 2: from their standpoint from our hitters. They give us a
• 12:56
  Speaker 2: different lens to look through. We have the lens that
• 12:59
  Speaker 2: we're looking through from the mechanical standpoint and the work
• 13:02
  Speaker 2: in the cage. But when you have different groups collectively
• 13:05
  Speaker 2: looking from different lenses to try to help the organization
• 13:09
  Speaker 2: move forward, that's what you're trying to get to and
• 13:12
  Speaker 2: you're building that continuity even with new people that come in.
• 13:15
  Speaker 2: It's nice to come into that role and kind of
• 13:17
  Speaker 2: have that comfort to know that your opinion matters. That's
• 13:20
  Speaker 2: the kind of to me environment and culture that you
• 13:23
  Speaker 2: want to create is one where everyone feels comfortable given
• 13:26
  Speaker 2: their opinion, their opinion matters, and you can move forward.
• 13:29
  Speaker 1: Well, this may be a common theme, but I'm going
• 13:31
  Speaker 1: to say another one of your superpowers is your inclusivity.
• 13:34
  Speaker 1: You just talked about you include everybody in the process.
• 13:37
  Speaker 1: That the role of hitting coach maybe at one time
• 13:40
  Speaker 1: was a one man's job, and you would create a
• 13:42
  Speaker 1: system and it was kind of your way or the highway,
• 13:44
  Speaker 1: and every guy in the team hit a specific way.
• 13:47
  Speaker 1: That's not the way it works anymore. With the amount
• 13:49
  Speaker 1: of resources around you. You have to be part mechanic,
• 13:52
  Speaker 1: part strategist, and part therapist. And I was wondering if
• 13:55
  Speaker 1: you could just talk about that. You're gifted in all
• 13:57
  Speaker 1: three spaces. But you know, on any given day, how
• 14:00
  Speaker 1: do you balance those three responsibilities as you approach the
• 14:03
  Speaker 1: day to try to win that night's game?
• 14:06
  Speaker 2: You know. So it's great, it's changed over time. I
• 14:09
  Speaker 2: was going back. I was in the game first when
• 14:13
  Speaker 2: it was just me, So I dealt with that when
• 14:15
  Speaker 2: I was in Chicago, where I was the only ending coach,
• 14:17
  Speaker 2: and I was taking a hard drive at home at
• 14:20
  Speaker 2: night and plugging it into my computer and looking at
• 14:22
  Speaker 2: on a system to try to create scouting reports for
• 14:25
  Speaker 2: the hitters the next day. Right, And the game is
• 14:27
  Speaker 2: advanced so far now that we have advanced teams that
• 14:31
  Speaker 2: are putting in the work in the front offices that
• 14:33
  Speaker 2: are putting in work to create those reports and make
• 14:36
  Speaker 2: it easier for hitting coaches. They're going through a different
• 14:38
  Speaker 2: level of information. So now, yeah, I don't have to
• 14:41
  Speaker 2: do certain things as much, but the game's evolved and
• 14:44
  Speaker 2: there's more things for you to do. It kind of
• 14:46
  Speaker 2: creates more time for you to do other things to
• 14:49
  Speaker 2: help players. But to your point, I would say, the
• 14:52
  Speaker 2: way the game has evolved now you have assistant hitting
• 14:54
  Speaker 2: coaches now, and the best staffs to me are built
• 14:57
  Speaker 2: when you build them to people strains. I feel like
• 15:02
  Speaker 2: one of the things I learned, and it'll allude to
• 15:03
  Speaker 2: something different, but I think it's important here. When I
• 15:06
  Speaker 2: went to Detroit with AJ, one thing I thought that
• 15:10
  Speaker 2: AJ did a great job of was the way he
• 15:11
  Speaker 2: put the hitting department together. It was the first time
• 15:14
  Speaker 2: I had been a part of that. He got three
• 15:16
  Speaker 2: different guys with three different skill sets and tried to
• 15:19
  Speaker 2: bring those three guys together to create the best department
• 15:22
  Speaker 2: for the players. I thought that was genius in the
• 15:24
  Speaker 2: way it worked. And the two guys I work with
• 15:27
  Speaker 2: at the time, Michael Berdar who's still there in Keith
• 15:29
  Speaker 2: Boregard who's now the hitting coach of Minnesota. But it
• 15:32
  Speaker 2: was a three of us when we got together. It
• 15:34
  Speaker 2: was a great group of three guys that had three
• 15:36
  Speaker 2: different strengths. Bringing that together. To me, I feel like
• 15:39
  Speaker 2: that's the direction that the game is headed, and that's
• 15:42
  Speaker 2: the most powerful direction for the game to be. And
• 15:44
  Speaker 2: when players have different avenues that they could reach to,
• 15:48
  Speaker 2: but yet that group is collectively working together with no
• 15:51
  Speaker 2: egos to get these guys to maximize their strengths. So
• 15:54
  Speaker 2: I think like knowing your strength is important, knowing what
• 15:58
  Speaker 2: you do well is important. The ability to grow. For
• 16:01
  Speaker 2: me like so me as a hitting coach as long
• 16:03
  Speaker 2: as I've been in the game, I love it because
• 16:04
  Speaker 2: with these the younger guys now and the new technology
• 16:07
  Speaker 2: I'm still learning every day I do. I have guys
• 16:10
  Speaker 2: uh with my group. I have two younger assistant handy
• 16:13
  Speaker 2: coaches now, Casey Diys and and Jake Hurst and like
• 16:16
  Speaker 2: every day I go down to the cage and I
• 16:18
  Speaker 2: learned something from these guys, and I hope that you know,
• 16:20
  Speaker 2: I can give them some of the knowledge that I've
• 16:24
  Speaker 2: had that will help them kind of grow and building
• 16:27
  Speaker 2: their relationships and doing other things. But as long as
• 16:30
  Speaker 2: we all play to our strengths, it helps our group
• 16:32
  Speaker 2: and our players are comfortable in that environment. When your
• 16:35
  Speaker 2: players know that your staff is on the same page
• 16:38
  Speaker 2: and they're comfortable knowing that they can go to anybody
• 16:41
  Speaker 2: to get anything, it makes an environment where players are
• 16:44
  Speaker 2: going to succeed and they have fun in As long
• 16:46
  Speaker 2: as the staff takes your ego out of it and
• 16:47
  Speaker 2: we're all about winning the world championship, we're in a
• 16:50
  Speaker 2: good spot.
• 16:52
  Speaker 1: Jay ro Do you mind sharing with us what were
• 16:54
  Speaker 1: those three different strengths and do you see those as
• 16:56
  Speaker 1: the most prominent pillars for a successful hitting program?
• 16:59
  Speaker 2: I e.
• 17:00
  Speaker 1: You ever get to manage. Would you want to replicate
• 17:02
  Speaker 1: that if you if you were sitting in the managerial seat.
• 17:06
  Speaker 2: Uh? Yeah, I thought it was great And like to me,
• 17:07
  Speaker 2: I think it kind of obviously depends on you know,
• 17:10
  Speaker 2: the group you have, the staff you're looking through. But
• 17:12
  Speaker 2: in that in that situation. I thought myself it was
• 17:17
  Speaker 2: a lot of the experience end of it. It was
• 17:19
  Speaker 2: more of I'd been around, I've seen building situations. I've
• 17:23
  Speaker 2: been in them. Obviously we built in Minnesota. I've been
• 17:26
  Speaker 2: in situations where you you have some younger players and
• 17:30
  Speaker 2: how you build that group and how you kind of
• 17:32
  Speaker 2: create that culture in the cage, that offensive culture, and
• 17:35
  Speaker 2: you know, we talked so much about that in Minnesota.
• 17:37
  Speaker 2: Was I was so big on the culture and the
• 17:40
  Speaker 2: cage and the culture that you build with that group.
• 17:43
  Speaker 2: So I think my strengths in Detroit helped kind of
• 17:47
  Speaker 2: blend that group. Also, the experience for some of the
• 17:50
  Speaker 2: younger coaches that were on their way that are really
• 17:52
  Speaker 2: good at what they do, they had some experience to
• 17:55
  Speaker 2: lean on. I could kind of lean them towards some
• 17:56
  Speaker 2: of the pitfalls that I may have seen in some
• 17:58
  Speaker 2: of the things that they can continue you to grow with.
• 18:01
  Speaker 2: So for me, I felt like I was helping the
• 18:03
  Speaker 2: players from the experience standpoint, but also helping the coaches,
• 18:07
  Speaker 2: the younger coaches from the experience standpoint. Then I felt
• 18:09
  Speaker 2: like we had Michael Bardar, who was phenomenal at game planning.
• 18:13
  Speaker 2: I thought he was great at when it came to
• 18:15
  Speaker 2: game planning, opposing pictures and kind of going through that process,
• 18:20
  Speaker 2: simplifying that for hitters, making the game plan very simple
• 18:24
  Speaker 2: where guys didn't have to overthink, but they could. Michael
• 18:27
  Speaker 2: could take a lot of information and kind of narrow
• 18:30
  Speaker 2: it down to you know, one or two keys, which
• 18:33
  Speaker 2: is what you're trying to do for hitters, to make
• 18:35
  Speaker 2: this thing simple. He was phenomenal at that. He had
• 18:37
  Speaker 2: coached in the big leagues prior with the Padres before
• 18:41
  Speaker 2: coming to you know, Detroit. He was good at what
• 18:43
  Speaker 2: he did. And then we had Keith Boorgard who had come,
• 18:46
  Speaker 2: you know, from the Dodger system, and Keith was so
• 18:48
  Speaker 2: good for me at the performance science end of this thing.
• 18:51
  Speaker 2: He was very good at like the new drills and
• 18:53
  Speaker 2: how things worked, how the body moved, what was good
• 18:56
  Speaker 2: for hitters to do, what was the most efficient moves
• 18:59
  Speaker 2: for these guys to make with their body. He was
• 19:02
  Speaker 2: very good in collaborating at the same time with our
• 19:05
  Speaker 2: strength and conditioning program to know how these guys moved
• 19:08
  Speaker 2: and how they work. And I think when you bring
• 19:11
  Speaker 2: experience together with different skill sets in that group in Detroit,
• 19:14
  Speaker 2: it we really maximize what we got out of the players,
• 19:19
  Speaker 2: and the players felt good coming down there every day,
• 19:21
  Speaker 2: and we felt good kind of learning from each other.
• 19:25
  Speaker 2: So I learned a lot from Michael, Michael learned a
• 19:27
  Speaker 2: lot from me, hopefully, I learned a lot from Keith hopefully,
• 19:29
  Speaker 2: you know, vice versa, and we all kind of learned
• 19:31
  Speaker 2: from each other. And I thought that system was a
• 19:35
  Speaker 2: great way to put a department together. So I give you, know,
• 19:39
  Speaker 2: AJ Scott Harris a lot of credit for kind of
• 19:41
  Speaker 2: looking at it that way.
• 19:50
  Speaker 1: And James, I think you said it right, which is
• 19:52
  Speaker 1: every situation calls for different maybe mixes. And what I
• 19:56
  Speaker 1: saw you do in Minnesota, which was so artfully done,
• 19:59
  Speaker 1: was Rudy Hernandez was your assistant hitting coach and we
• 20:03
  Speaker 1: had a very Latin based offensive unit at that time,
• 20:07
  Speaker 1: and so you gave him real responsibilities. You really delegated
• 20:11
  Speaker 1: and empowered him to be the lead voice with some
• 20:14
  Speaker 1: of those guys. But more than that, you know, one
• 20:17
  Speaker 1: of the evolutions in the game, which was so long overdue,
• 20:20
  Speaker 1: is having bilingual coaches at the major league level. You know,
• 20:23
  Speaker 1: we have over thirty percent of Major leaguers or from
• 20:27
  Speaker 1: Latin American countries, yet by and large, we didn't have
• 20:30
  Speaker 1: a lot of Spanish speaking coaches. And as you mentioned,
• 20:33
  Speaker 1: we have such high level advanced materials now data analytics
• 20:38
  Speaker 1: that are really helping inform our decisions, but we're communicating
• 20:41
  Speaker 1: it to players not in their native language. Now all
• 20:43
  Speaker 1: of a sudden we get a chance to do that,
• 20:45
  Speaker 1: and as we're turning that corner in Minnesota, you really
• 20:48
  Speaker 1: empower Rudy. Do you want to talk for just a
• 20:50
  Speaker 1: second about the relationship you had with Rudy and what
• 20:53
  Speaker 1: you felt that situation called were and how you guys
• 20:56
  Speaker 1: delineated the responsibilities between the two of you.
• 21:00
  Speaker 2: Really, Rudy was great, obviously, and you know that. Man,
• 21:02
  Speaker 2: I think the world of Rudy. He was And again
• 21:04
  Speaker 2: I didn't know Rudy coming in and we got to
• 21:07
  Speaker 2: build a relationship and got to know each other, and
• 21:09
  Speaker 2: I think again that's part of it. Part of it is,
• 21:11
  Speaker 2: you know, when you're walking into a situation, I think
• 21:14
  Speaker 2: the first thing to do is you have to get
• 21:16
  Speaker 2: to know the people around you. You have to find
• 21:18
  Speaker 2: out how they think, what they think is important and
• 21:22
  Speaker 2: you have to judge that for yourself to decide, Like
• 21:25
  Speaker 2: you know, how you want to move how you want
• 21:26
  Speaker 2: to go moving forward to your point, I always looked
• 21:30
  Speaker 2: at you know, when you have like right now, I'm
• 21:32
  Speaker 2: the hitting coach, and then you have assistant hitting coaches.
• 21:35
  Speaker 2: You know, titles don't mean much to me, Like to
• 21:37
  Speaker 2: that point, Rudy, Rudy was a hitting coach for me.
• 21:39
  Speaker 2: He wasn't an assistant hitting coach. It was a group
• 21:41
  Speaker 2: and we were a hitting department, and we had to
• 21:43
  Speaker 2: work together, and you empower people to be great. I
• 21:46
  Speaker 2: think part of leadership, in my opinion, is not to
• 21:50
  Speaker 2: take over it. It's to empower others to find their greatness.
• 21:54
  Speaker 2: And Rudy was also in that situation. He had so
• 21:58
  Speaker 2: much to give, so much to offer. He care so
• 22:00
  Speaker 2: much about the players. He had been in the Twins
• 22:03
  Speaker 2: system for so many years and had seen that develop
• 22:07
  Speaker 2: and got to see a lot of these players from
• 22:08
  Speaker 2: the minor leagues to the major leagues. So I saw
• 22:10
  Speaker 2: that as such a strength. So I wanted to make
• 22:13
  Speaker 2: him feel good about being there. I didn't want him
• 22:15
  Speaker 2: to feel like I was coming in to take over.
• 22:17
  Speaker 2: I want him to feel like I was coming in
• 22:19
  Speaker 2: to get to know him and get to work alongside
• 22:22
  Speaker 2: him and work with him. I think that's important. It's
• 22:25
  Speaker 2: the same thing in this atmosphere when I came to
• 22:28
  Speaker 2: New York, very similar situations. I think sometimes when you're
• 22:32
  Speaker 2: coming in as a head hitting coach and you're new
• 22:34
  Speaker 2: into that group, it can be threatening to some extent
• 22:37
  Speaker 2: because people just don't know you and they don't know
• 22:39
  Speaker 2: what your style is going to be. I think it's
• 22:41
  Speaker 2: important when you do come in that position, as I've
• 22:44
  Speaker 2: come in a few times in different organizations, it's important
• 22:47
  Speaker 2: to let people know, Hey, I'm coming to work with
• 22:49
  Speaker 2: you and I want to be work alongside you and
• 22:52
  Speaker 2: we can do this, and we is the key word.
• 22:55
  Speaker 2: I know it sounds cliche, but you know me, that's
• 22:57
  Speaker 2: how That's how I operate. I operate in a sense
• 23:00
  Speaker 2: if I want people to be comfortable on what they
• 23:01
  Speaker 2: do so that they can go out and enjoy doing
• 23:04
  Speaker 2: what they're doing. And being empowered is super important. You
• 23:07
  Speaker 2: have to feel like you have the ability to do
• 23:10
  Speaker 2: it and not worry about, you know, backlash from what
• 23:13
  Speaker 2: you do as a coach.
• 23:15
  Speaker 1: James, we talked a little bit about it on past
• 23:17
  Speaker 1: episodes on the show. The sport has really shifted to
• 23:20
  Speaker 1: understanding they can access people with exceptionally high IQs. I
• 23:24
  Speaker 1: still believe that the guys with the exceptional EQ such
• 23:27
  Speaker 1: as yourself, who are more wired to think about about
• 23:30
  Speaker 1: it from a department standpoint, from a partnership standpoint, and
• 23:33
  Speaker 1: from a week perspective. It really does allow you to
• 23:37
  Speaker 1: put people, whether it's coaches or players, in the position
• 23:40
  Speaker 1: to be the best versions in themselves. And I totally
• 23:42
  Speaker 1: agree with your assessment of leadership. That's what we're in
• 23:44
  Speaker 1: it to do. Like I don't have any magic pixie dust,
• 23:47
  Speaker 1: I don't have this you know, unified formula that will
• 23:51
  Speaker 1: magically put everyone in position to succeed. All I can
• 23:54
  Speaker 1: do is try to identify the hurdles they have to success,
• 23:57
  Speaker 1: lower them as best as I can, and provide them
• 23:59
  Speaker 1: the resources to allow them to be the best versions
• 24:01
  Speaker 1: of themselves. You have to do that through the lens
• 24:04
  Speaker 1: of looking at it through a WEE partnership, in a
• 24:07
  Speaker 1: team based approach, rather than it's just any individual thing
• 24:10
  Speaker 1: that I could do. James, I want to take you
• 24:12
  Speaker 1: back to a specific night. It's June thirteenth, twenty twelve.
• 24:17
  Speaker 1: You get the call to the major leagues for the
• 24:19
  Speaker 1: first time to become the hitting coach of the Chicago Cubs.
• 24:23
  Speaker 1: Maybe a little bit of a bittersweet night as well,
• 24:25
  Speaker 1: because they were leaving Rudy Hermio, who is a longtime
• 24:29
  Speaker 1: and very venerated hitting coach of his role. You get
• 24:32
  Speaker 1: to the big leagues, What is that experience like for you?
• 24:34
  Speaker 1: What do you remember about that night?
• 24:37
  Speaker 2: Oh man? So let me start with that with how
• 24:41
  Speaker 2: much respect and whateverence I have for Rudy Herameio. So
• 24:45
  Speaker 2: when I first came to Chicago, I came over as
• 24:48
  Speaker 2: a coordinator and Rudy Heramio was a major league getting coach.
• 24:52
  Speaker 2: And Rudy invited me out to Arizona when he was
• 24:55
  Speaker 2: working with some players, and he invited me out there
• 24:57
  Speaker 2: and said, and he was always hey kid, you know,
• 24:59
  Speaker 2: come out here. Kid. So he hey, kid, we're gonna
• 25:02
  Speaker 2: be out here in the morning, We're gonna go work.
• 25:04
  Speaker 2: And he was so it was so at that time,
• 25:08
  Speaker 2: I was a young hitting coach and Rudy was the
• 25:09
  Speaker 2: top hitting coach in all of baseball. Everybody, if you
• 25:12
  Speaker 2: were a hitting coach coming up, you knew who Rudy
• 25:14
  Speaker 2: Hairmeo was. And you know, he was so willing to
• 25:18
  Speaker 2: share what he had, like and I love that about him.
• 25:22
  Speaker 2: And I tried to take on that characteristic over time
• 25:25
  Speaker 2: of Rudy because he was so willing to share. Hey,
• 25:27
  Speaker 2: it's about the player, and that was his mindset. So
• 25:30
  Speaker 2: like just I wanted to share that first because he
• 25:32
  Speaker 2: was such a you know, powerful guy in that industry.
• 25:35
  Speaker 2: And I did learn and the very short time I
• 25:37
  Speaker 2: was around him, I did pick up some things from
• 25:39
  Speaker 2: him and the way he was so giving of what
• 25:42
  Speaker 2: he had already accomplished and he wasn't trying to hoard that.
• 25:45
  Speaker 2: He knew that it was more important to share that.
• 25:47
  Speaker 2: So Rudy was that kind of guy. And I was
• 25:50
  Speaker 2: actually in Tennessee with the Tennessee Smokies at the time
• 25:54
  Speaker 2: in Double A when I got the call. I was coordinating,
• 25:57
  Speaker 2: so I was, you know, making my trip into Tennessee
• 26:00
  Speaker 2: and I got the call from It was a feo,
• 26:03
  Speaker 2: uh Jed and Jason to let me know that, Hey,
• 26:07
  Speaker 2: we're gonna bring you up to you know, Chicago tomorrow,
• 26:11
  Speaker 2: so we need you to fly out tonight. You know,
• 26:14
  Speaker 2: you don't have to go to the stadium. You gotta
• 26:15
  Speaker 2: fly out tonight and get here. But you can't tell anybody,
• 26:18
  Speaker 2: So now I'm like, oh, man, like I can't. So
• 26:21
  Speaker 2: so I cheated. I told my I told my dad,
• 26:24
  Speaker 2: and I told my wife. I cheated. I'm not telling anybody.
• 26:26
  Speaker 2: I said, you can't tell anybody. I got to go.
• 26:28
  Speaker 2: So I had to call the manager and tell him like, hey,
• 26:31
  Speaker 2: I'm not feeling good. I'm not gonna be able to
• 26:33
  Speaker 2: make it in today. And meanwhile I'm making a flight
• 26:35
  Speaker 2: to head to Chicago to UH to kind of sit
• 26:38
  Speaker 2: in the hotel and wait for UH. At that time,
• 26:41
  Speaker 2: Gil Swayne was a manager, wait for them him to
• 26:43
  Speaker 2: call me and tell me, hey, okay, come to the
• 26:45
  Speaker 2: stadium and you're getting called to the big leagues. But
• 26:47
  Speaker 2: that call, for me, it was amazing because I always
• 26:50
  Speaker 2: thought about that call as a player, how I would
• 26:52
  Speaker 2: feel making it to the big leagues as a player,
• 26:54
  Speaker 2: And I can tell you as a coach, it felt
• 26:57
  Speaker 2: every bit as good as I thought it would feel
• 26:59
  Speaker 2: as a player. It was accomplishing a dream I wanted
• 27:03
  Speaker 2: to get to. I had a dream of getting to
• 27:04
  Speaker 2: the major leagues one day. And I always say, and
• 27:07
  Speaker 2: you know, my faith is always first, And I say
• 27:09
  Speaker 2: to myself, God has his own plan, We have our plan.
• 27:11
  Speaker 2: God has his own plan for us, And you know
• 27:13
  Speaker 2: my plan for his plan for me wasn't to make
• 27:15
  Speaker 2: it as a player. But I got to the big
• 27:17
  Speaker 2: leagues as a coach, and I still felt it felt
• 27:20
  Speaker 2: so rewarding because of that grind, because of going through
• 27:22
  Speaker 2: all those years in the minor leagues and all those
• 27:25
  Speaker 2: tough situations. I learned so much and I felt like
• 27:28
  Speaker 2: I was ready for it, But man, I felt like
• 27:29
  Speaker 2: a kid in a candy store.
• 27:32
  Speaker 1: That's awesome, James, Can you give the share the perspective?
• 27:35
  Speaker 2: What is it like.
• 27:36
  Speaker 1: Joining a major league staff in the middle of a season.
• 27:40
  Speaker 1: You don't get the benefit of going through all of
• 27:41
  Speaker 1: spring training. I know, you know all the hitters, you
• 27:43
  Speaker 1: probably were very active in working with them, but you're
• 27:47
  Speaker 1: learning some guys on the fly. You're learning the dynamics
• 27:49
  Speaker 1: of the coaching staff. How does that differ now that
• 27:52
  Speaker 1: you've obviously had countless spring trainings. What is it like
• 27:55
  Speaker 1: joining a staff midseason?
• 27:57
  Speaker 2: Well, I'll tell you it's challenging. There are challeent to that,
• 28:00
  Speaker 2: and it's tough because you're you're in the middle of
• 28:04
  Speaker 2: the fight. The major league season is a fight, and
• 28:06
  Speaker 2: guys are in there and they're fighting they're competing and
• 28:08
  Speaker 2: they're going against other teams, and you kind of step
• 28:10
  Speaker 2: right in the middle of that fight, not having the
• 28:13
  Speaker 2: luxury of have have started it. I think one thing
• 28:16
  Speaker 2: I tell people the advice and I would say this
• 28:18
  Speaker 2: in all situations, but it's so important and that situation
• 28:22
  Speaker 2: is to be authentically yourself. I think sometimes in this
• 28:27
  Speaker 2: role as a hitting coach, you feel like you have
• 28:29
  Speaker 2: to know everything. I think the reality is no one
• 28:31
  Speaker 2: knows everything. Be yourself and do the best you can,
• 28:36
  Speaker 2: prepare the best you can. Your job is to make
• 28:38
  Speaker 2: sure you're prepared, make sure you're trying to cross the
• 28:40
  Speaker 2: t's about the eyes and if you don't know, it's okay.
• 28:44
  Speaker 2: I think that's one of the lessons I learned when
• 28:46
  Speaker 2: I got to the big leagues was like, early on,
• 28:49
  Speaker 2: you try to know everything. And then I was fortunate
• 28:51
  Speaker 2: to have a great group of veterans when I got
• 28:53
  Speaker 2: to the big leagues of Chicago and those three guys,
• 28:56
  Speaker 2: and I'll just kind of point out three guys that
• 28:57
  Speaker 2: were really good for me, Alfonso Sorryo, Ree Johnson and
• 29:01
  Speaker 2: Jeff Baker. I had those three guys that were kind
• 29:04
  Speaker 2: of veterans around and they helped me because I felt
• 29:08
  Speaker 2: that they could feel the authenticity. They knew that I
• 29:11
  Speaker 2: was just trying to be myself, so I kind of
• 29:14
  Speaker 2: endeared and they were like, Hey, let's do this this
• 29:16
  Speaker 2: way or let's try to go this way. And they
• 29:17
  Speaker 2: helped me because I wasn't coming in as a guy
• 29:20
  Speaker 2: with all the answers. I was coming in to get
• 29:22
  Speaker 2: to know them and get to know what they do well.
• 29:25
  Speaker 2: So that would be my thing. If you're going to
• 29:26
  Speaker 2: enter in the middle of the season, don't think you
• 29:28
  Speaker 2: have to come in and save the season. You're coming
• 29:31
  Speaker 2: in to get to know these guys, to get to
• 29:33
  Speaker 2: know what they do well, have conversation. And the more
• 29:36
  Speaker 2: you build a relationship and have conversation with them, I've
• 29:39
  Speaker 2: learned players that run through a wall for you when
• 29:41
  Speaker 2: they know you care about them as people.
• 29:43
  Speaker 1: First, Yeah, James, you mentioned it, but like I've always
• 29:47
  Speaker 1: viewed it as you could look at asking for help
• 29:50
  Speaker 1: through two different lenses. One is it a sign of
• 29:52
  Speaker 1: weakness or is it a sign that you're willing to
• 29:55
  Speaker 1: let your guard down, be vulnerable and bring people in.
• 29:59
  Speaker 1: And I've always looked a the latter. So two of
• 30:02
  Speaker 1: you and I think that endears you to people right
• 30:03
  Speaker 1: out of the shoot. None of us has all the answers,
• 30:06
  Speaker 1: but sure as heck, when you're joining a staff mid season,
• 30:09
  Speaker 1: you need help to be able to achieve the best
• 30:11
  Speaker 1: you can achieve, you know. I also just want to
• 30:14
  Speaker 1: touch on you mentioned Rudy Heromeo. I had a chance
• 30:16
  Speaker 1: to work with him with the Texas Rangers. I couldn't
• 30:18
  Speaker 1: agree more. He's one of the most gifted hitting coaches
• 30:20
  Speaker 1: I've ever been around. We talked about it earlier. I
• 30:24
  Speaker 1: thought he was one of the best therapists I've ever seen.
• 30:27
  Speaker 1: Every hitter went to the box feeling as if Rudy
• 30:29
  Speaker 1: was on their shoulder and whispering in their ear ways
• 30:32
  Speaker 1: to beat the pitcher, and they just felt stronger for
• 30:35
  Speaker 1: having had him in their corner. He was exceptional. He
• 30:38
  Speaker 1: also called me Kid for our entire eight year relationship.
• 30:41
  Speaker 1: I think it was like an eighty two percent chance
• 30:43
  Speaker 1: because he had no idea what my name was, but
• 30:45
  Speaker 1: it was somehow very endearing. That was his universal name
• 30:49
  Speaker 1: for almost everybody. It made you feel special, But then
• 30:51
  Speaker 1: it also made you wonder, I wonder if he has
• 30:53
  Speaker 1: any idea what my actual name is. James say, is
• 30:57
  Speaker 1: that as the game is wont to do. On the
• 31:00
  Speaker 1: other side of the spectrum, at the end of the
• 31:02
  Speaker 1: twenty thirteen season, during a rebuilding process for the Cubs,
• 31:06
  Speaker 1: they decided to make a few changes on their major
• 31:08
  Speaker 1: league staff and your contract is not renewed. Could you
• 31:12
  Speaker 1: just share with the audience a little bit about what
• 31:14
  Speaker 1: that that conversation was like. Was that with with theo
• 31:17
  Speaker 1: Epstein or Jed Hoyer or how did that go down?
• 31:20
  Speaker 2: Okay, so that was really interesting and not many of
• 31:23
  Speaker 2: people know this story, but I'm gonna share this story
• 31:24
  Speaker 2: with you right now. This is great. So what happened
• 31:27
  Speaker 2: was there there was obviously going to be I met
• 31:29
  Speaker 2: with him at the end of the season, and there
• 31:31
  Speaker 2: was going to be a managerial change, and they didn't
• 31:34
  Speaker 2: know what that was going to entail yet, and so
• 31:37
  Speaker 2: I had a conversation with with THEO all three actually THEO, Jed,
• 31:42
  Speaker 2: and Jason, And basically the conversation was I had another
• 31:45
  Speaker 2: year remaining on my contract at the time with the
• 31:50
  Speaker 2: with the Cubs, and it was one where they weren't
• 31:53
  Speaker 2: sure what was going to happen, and a couple of
• 31:55
  Speaker 2: other teams were calling at the same time for permission
• 31:59
  Speaker 2: to speak to me. So Jeda called me and said, hey, listen,
• 32:03
  Speaker 2: we're not sure yet what we're gonna do, but I
• 32:06
  Speaker 2: don't want to hold opportunities if they if they show up,
• 32:08
  Speaker 2: which I thought was so great for him to do
• 32:10
  Speaker 2: that for me, And he said, you know, Cleveland had
• 32:13
  Speaker 2: made a call and wanted to have you, you know,
• 32:16
  Speaker 2: talk about maybe an assistant job with them as well,
• 32:19
  Speaker 2: but like, we haven't made a decision yet. We'd like
• 32:22
  Speaker 2: you to kind of hang on and see what happens.
• 32:24
  Speaker 2: But I'm not gonna deny the you know, the request.
• 32:27
  Speaker 2: So I went and I interviewed and I talked with Cleveland.
• 32:30
  Speaker 2: At the time, their hitting coach was on Ti Van
• 32:32
  Speaker 2: Berkleyo and it was great. This this this really goes
• 32:36
  Speaker 2: sinful because Derek Falvey actually worked in the office with
• 32:41
  Speaker 2: Cleveland at the time and that was my first interaction
• 32:43
  Speaker 2: with him. And then also Chris Annonetti was a GM
• 32:47
  Speaker 2: at the time. So I go in and I meet
• 32:48
  Speaker 2: with Terry Francona and that group, and I was offered
• 32:52
  Speaker 2: the job, the assistant hideoach job in Cleveland while I
• 32:55
  Speaker 2: was still currently with the with the Cubs. It was
• 32:58
  Speaker 2: so much going on. I'm like, man, I don't know,
• 32:59
  Speaker 2: I don't know what's happening. This is all happened too fast.
• 33:01
  Speaker 2: And then the Yankees had actually called and wanted to
• 33:06
  Speaker 2: talk to me about returning as a coordinator. You know
• 33:10
  Speaker 2: how I feel about family and those things. And my
• 33:12
  Speaker 2: daughter Gabriella at the time was gonna be going to kindergarten.
• 33:18
  Speaker 2: And I had this choice. It was, you know, and
• 33:22
  Speaker 2: and to this day, I'm so so happy I made
• 33:24
  Speaker 2: the choice. So I had the major league job with
• 33:28
  Speaker 2: the Cubs still in the mix. I had a major
• 33:29
  Speaker 2: league job offer with the at the time the Cleveland
• 33:33
  Speaker 2: UH Indians in the mix, and I chose the Yankee job.
• 33:38
  Speaker 2: And I remember calling Jed and I told Jed when
• 33:41
  Speaker 2: I did this, I said, I chose a coordinator job,
• 33:43
  Speaker 2: and and Jed said, will to shoot major league jobs?
• 33:46
  Speaker 2: And I said, listen, I am not arrogant enough at
• 33:49
  Speaker 2: all to believe that, Like, I know how important these
• 33:51
  Speaker 2: major league jobs are, and I'm not arrogant to think
• 33:54
  Speaker 2: that I can get another one. But I said, but
• 33:56
  Speaker 2: I know one thing for sure, as I could never
• 33:58
  Speaker 2: take my kid to kindergarten again. And the coordinator job
• 34:02
  Speaker 2: was going to allow me the time to take her
• 34:03
  Speaker 2: to school, and to this day, that memory of taking
• 34:06
  Speaker 2: Gabby to kindergarten for the first time is something I'll
• 34:09
  Speaker 2: never forget and I've I've always learned to be able
• 34:11
  Speaker 2: to do that. For me. The way I can make
• 34:13
  Speaker 2: the game work is it's you know, my faith, my
• 34:15
  Speaker 2: family and baseball, and I try to keep that order
• 34:18
  Speaker 2: the same all the time, and it keeps me grounded
• 34:21
  Speaker 2: and a level to be able to do. To be
• 34:23
  Speaker 2: able to do this at the level I could do it,
• 34:24
  Speaker 2: I think it's important to have to be level headed
• 34:27
  Speaker 2: to do this job.
• 34:28
  Speaker 1: And that's kind of especially a heartwarm heart, exceptionally heartwarming story,
• 34:32
  Speaker 1: and it's like, what makes you stand out also more
• 34:35
  Speaker 1: as a full candidate for some of these opportunities is
• 34:39
  Speaker 1: just your perspective you have. So I want to I
• 34:42
  Speaker 1: want to fast forward a little bit through your Yankees experience.
• 34:45
  Speaker 1: It's not long after you return to the Yankees that
• 34:47
  Speaker 1: the Minnesota Twins come calling. I'm working for the Twins
• 34:50
  Speaker 1: at the time, you mentioned that you already had a
• 34:52
  Speaker 1: pre existing engagement, if not relationship, with Derek Falvey, who's
• 34:55
  Speaker 1: running the Twins. At the time, they called to interview
• 34:58
  Speaker 1: you to be the major league hitting coach, And just
• 35:01
  Speaker 1: as a little bit of background that I'm sure you
• 35:03
  Speaker 1: probably know, but just to share with you, when we
• 35:07
  Speaker 1: were very voracious in terms of checking references, and so
• 35:10
  Speaker 1: we were very committed to checking at least two people
• 35:14
  Speaker 1: who you'd worked for, so to maybe managers who you
• 35:17
  Speaker 1: had worked for, two coaches you had worked with, and
• 35:19
  Speaker 1: several people, namely players who had you kind of responded
• 35:23
  Speaker 1: to your coaches who were beneath you. The reviews that
• 35:26
  Speaker 1: came back were so exceptional. Everything you've talked about so far, James,
• 35:31
  Speaker 1: about how big your heart is and how you pour
• 35:33
  Speaker 1: your heart into everybody is exactly how everyone described you.
• 35:37
  Speaker 1: But I want to take you into the interview room
• 35:40
  Speaker 1: where you shared an interesting approach to how you would
• 35:43
  Speaker 1: be a hitting coach, adopting a little bit of what
• 35:46
  Speaker 1: the NFL does in the concept of an offensive coordinator.
• 35:49
  Speaker 1: Can you kind of share your vision, which I think
• 35:51
  Speaker 1: is still sharpened over the years and is still kind
• 35:54
  Speaker 1: of how you approach it and perhaps even would be
• 35:56
  Speaker 1: how you would approach being a manager at the major
• 35:58
  Speaker 1: league level.
• 36:00
  Speaker 2: Yeah. I also I always looked, you know, the more
• 36:03
  Speaker 2: you do it, I shouldn't say always, but the longer
• 36:05
  Speaker 2: you're in a field and you're continuing to try to grow,
• 36:08
  Speaker 2: you're trying to find the best ways to make it work.
• 36:11
  Speaker 2: And this was This is great because it's a conversation
• 36:13
  Speaker 2: we had and I talked about I always looked, I said,
• 36:16
  Speaker 2: the NFL. I look at the NFL, I look at
• 36:18
  Speaker 2: the NBA. I look at other sports to try to
• 36:20
  Speaker 2: find out what could baseball incorporate in areas to be better.
• 36:26
  Speaker 2: Always try to dive. And I'm like, I thought the
• 36:28
  Speaker 2: NFL got it right, And I said, you know, when
• 36:30
  Speaker 2: you're looking at offense, said, the NFL has a running
• 36:33
  Speaker 2: back coach, they have a wide receiver coach. They have
• 36:37
  Speaker 2: these individual coaches, but then game day they have the
• 36:40
  Speaker 2: offensive coordinator who kind of brings it all together. And
• 36:43
  Speaker 2: I look at hitting in that same mindset. You know,
• 36:48
  Speaker 2: hitting is a skill, but the job to win Major
• 36:51
  Speaker 2: League Baseball games and in the Winter World Championship is
• 36:54
  Speaker 2: not how many hits you get, it how many runs
• 36:56
  Speaker 2: you score. And the reality is you're trying to create
• 36:59
  Speaker 2: off You're not trying to create hitters per se when
• 37:03
  Speaker 2: you're looking at building a team and winning and doing that.
• 37:06
  Speaker 2: So how do you create the best offense. And I
• 37:09
  Speaker 2: thought like that offensive coordinator mindset for me was what
• 37:13
  Speaker 2: I had was like, Okay, whether it's collaborating with the
• 37:16
  Speaker 2: base running side of it, whether it's collaborating with when
• 37:18
  Speaker 2: I do certain things, when do I bund when do
• 37:21
  Speaker 2: I do other things like how do I put my
• 37:23
  Speaker 2: team in the best situation to score runs? I think
• 37:26
  Speaker 2: from an offensive standpoint, for the players, when they buy
• 37:29
  Speaker 2: into that, it helps, Like we talked about earlier, it
• 37:32
  Speaker 2: helps with those things because it allows you to help
• 37:34
  Speaker 2: the team. Even when you may not be feeling great
• 37:37
  Speaker 2: at the plate, you can do something to help the
• 37:39
  Speaker 2: team win. And I think when you kind of rally
• 37:42
  Speaker 2: around that mindset, it's so much better as a group.
• 37:45
  Speaker 2: But yeah, I thought the offensive coordinator mindset was so
• 37:48
  Speaker 2: much better because you started thinking about run scored and
• 37:51
  Speaker 2: it didn't say with just the mechanics of the hitter
• 37:54
  Speaker 2: or you know, did he have to move his hands
• 37:56
  Speaker 2: up or hands down. You've got guys to get outside
• 37:58
  Speaker 2: of their mindsets and think about how do I help
• 38:00
  Speaker 2: the team win? And I still believe in that, And
• 38:03
  Speaker 2: it was great because when in Miami, when that opportunity
• 38:07
  Speaker 2: came along, that was one of the things, and I
• 38:09
  Speaker 2: ended up getting the offensive coordinator title at that time,
• 38:13
  Speaker 2: which I think people thought was nuts, like what is
• 38:15
  Speaker 2: that like to baseball? It's football? But the mind was
• 38:19
  Speaker 2: My mindset was more about that can help the team
• 38:24
  Speaker 2: and help the offense. Think about how do we win
• 38:26
  Speaker 2: games as a group, and what are the little things
• 38:28
  Speaker 2: that we can do combine. And it also put a
• 38:32
  Speaker 2: you know a big deal on the specific coaching and
• 38:36
  Speaker 2: the specialty coaching. So when you did work in your areas,
• 38:40
  Speaker 2: you would work with the hitters, you would also work
• 38:41
  Speaker 2: with the base running. Those coaches worked hard on those
• 38:44
  Speaker 2: specific things. But it also put their mindset on, Okay,
• 38:47
  Speaker 2: now that we've you know, got this skill better, now
• 38:51
  Speaker 2: how do we use this skill to effectively help us
• 38:54
  Speaker 2: win a game. The skill is no good without the
• 38:56
  Speaker 2: ability to win the ball game. And you know, you
• 38:59
  Speaker 2: want to stay in that mindset of like I have
• 39:01
  Speaker 2: to have the skill, but the skill has to be
• 39:03
  Speaker 2: effective in helping us win.
• 39:05
  Speaker 1: And James, I currently am assisting the Milwaukee Brewers in
• 39:10
  Speaker 1: they embody everything you just said. Offensively, it's remarkable, you know,
• 39:14
  Speaker 1: towards the bottom of the list and home runs they're
• 39:16
  Speaker 1: towards the top of the list of run scored, and
• 39:18
  Speaker 1: the reason is because they're the most effective team and
• 39:21
  Speaker 1: scoring a guy from third with less than two outs
• 39:23
  Speaker 1: and moving a guy from second to third with zero outs,
• 39:27
  Speaker 1: and it's a selfless approach. And that's the key to this,
• 39:29
  Speaker 1: right is we can all have this philosophy, but at
• 39:32
  Speaker 1: the end of the day, players believe that they're going
• 39:34
  Speaker 1: to get paid for their productivity, and it's because that's
• 39:37
  Speaker 1: exactly what we pay them for.
• 39:39
  Speaker 2: So we need to do.
• 39:40
  Speaker 1: A better job as in front offices of rewarding players
• 39:44
  Speaker 1: for exactly the selflessness that you described. And if we
• 39:47
  Speaker 1: do that, then they're going to continue to do that
• 39:49
  Speaker 1: because I've always felt that the game always talks about
• 39:52
  Speaker 1: there's a name on the front of your jersey, which
• 39:53
  Speaker 1: is your team name. There's a name on the back
• 39:55
  Speaker 1: which is your last name, except for the Yankees and
• 39:58
  Speaker 1: sometimes the Red Sox, and I think sometimes we disproportionately
• 40:02
  Speaker 1: tell a guy you only can focus on the name
• 40:04
  Speaker 1: on the front. I've always believed if you focus appropriately
• 40:07
  Speaker 1: on the name on the front, people will want to
• 40:10
  Speaker 1: know the name on the back. You got a chance
• 40:22
  Speaker 1: to be around. Byron Buxton for a number of years.
• 40:24
  Speaker 1: This was when he was kind of up and coming.
• 40:26
  Speaker 1: He was suffering through a few injuries, but the talent
• 40:28
  Speaker 1: was just off the charts. Can you just share with
• 40:31
  Speaker 1: with the listeners, like, what was it like working with
• 40:33
  Speaker 1: this guy both from a work ethics standpoint, personality and
• 40:37
  Speaker 1: just the talents he had to contribute on the field.
• 40:41
  Speaker 2: Man, As you know, I can't say enough great things
• 40:44
  Speaker 2: about Buck, And it usually starts with the best guys
• 40:47
  Speaker 2: I've been around the game. It usually starts with them
• 40:49
  Speaker 2: as a human being and what a person he is,
• 40:52
  Speaker 2: the way he goes about his business, the way he
• 40:54
  Speaker 2: treats people, you know, unreal human being. But the talent
• 40:59
  Speaker 2: on the field, this was one of the most talented
• 41:01
  Speaker 2: players I still to this day have had an opportunity
• 41:04
  Speaker 2: to be around. And Buck's perseverance stands out to me.
• 41:09
  Speaker 2: This is a guy who's gone through injuries at the
• 41:11
  Speaker 2: major league level, who's gone through a lot of hardship,
• 41:14
  Speaker 2: who hitting didn't come easy to when he started. He
• 41:17
  Speaker 2: was a guy that could run so fast that people
• 41:20
  Speaker 2: thought the skill set was, hey, just hit the ball
• 41:22
  Speaker 2: on the ground and run. And now you look and
• 41:24
  Speaker 2: see that he could hit the ball four hundred and
• 41:26
  Speaker 2: fifty feet almost any state. To me, like, well, he
• 41:28
  Speaker 2: could do a couple of things. He could actually hit
• 41:31
  Speaker 2: for power, and he could still run in steel basis.
• 41:33
  Speaker 2: So I think like when Buck was that player who
• 41:37
  Speaker 2: was so relentless in trying to maximize who he was.
• 41:41
  Speaker 2: He wanted to create and use all the skills and
• 41:45
  Speaker 2: all the tools that he had in the toolbox. That's
• 41:48
  Speaker 2: what made it so fun to work with him. But
• 41:50
  Speaker 2: also he was the toughest player that I would say
• 41:56
  Speaker 2: that I had an opportunity to coach because when it
• 41:58
  Speaker 2: didn't go well, he had a very tough time early
• 42:01
  Speaker 2: in the season and struggled early in twenty seventeen, kind
• 42:05
  Speaker 2: of like maybe maybe you know numerically, you know, stuff
• 42:08
  Speaker 2: is one of the worst players in the league. And
• 42:09
  Speaker 2: then the second half he was arguably one of the
• 42:11
  Speaker 2: best players in the league. And that's a credit to
• 42:14
  Speaker 2: him because he would not quit. We had conversations, and
• 42:18
  Speaker 2: I mean, and I talk with you, there were times
• 42:20
  Speaker 2: where we were talking, say, hey, what do you think,
• 42:22
  Speaker 2: how's he going? Do we think he's good? And I'd say,
• 42:25
  Speaker 2: this kid won't break, Like this kid is willing to
• 42:27
  Speaker 2: endure these tough at bats, and I would go in
• 42:30
  Speaker 2: and we would work on things and he'd go, hey,
• 42:32
  Speaker 2: let's stick with it. And it may be a night
• 42:34
  Speaker 2: where he punched out two or three times, but he's like,
• 42:36
  Speaker 2: it felt better, Let's stick with it. And I'll never forget.
• 42:39
  Speaker 2: There was a there was a session as a hitting coach,
• 42:42
  Speaker 2: you always remember these days. There was a work session
• 42:45
  Speaker 2: in Boston. We were on the road in Boston. We're
• 42:48
  Speaker 2: in the Casion Boston, and we started doing this drill
• 42:51
  Speaker 2: and all of a sudden, like he clicks and he goes, hey,
• 42:54
  Speaker 2: do that again, So we do it again. He clicks.
• 42:56
  Speaker 2: He's like, I'm gonna move closer to do it again,
• 42:59
  Speaker 2: and I'm just like follow on his lead now because
• 43:00
  Speaker 2: he's feeling something, and I'm like, let's go. So he goes,
• 43:04
  Speaker 2: That's what. That's what we're talking about. When we were
• 43:06
  Speaker 2: saying that, you know, last month, I know what that
• 43:09
  Speaker 2: feels like, and it was amazing, and that's that's hitting.
• 43:12
  Speaker 2: He felt that on that one day and it just sparked,
• 43:16
  Speaker 2: like you know, he just started to progress and progress
• 43:19
  Speaker 2: and progress and get better. But he deserves so much
• 43:21
  Speaker 2: credit because this kid was so relentless and just was
• 43:26
  Speaker 2: willing to endure the pain and suffering that that that
• 43:29
  Speaker 2: hitting will give you to trust in his abilities and
• 43:34
  Speaker 2: know that on the other side of that was greatness.
• 43:37
  Speaker 2: And I think that's what you try to get guys
• 43:39
  Speaker 2: to understand, like the pain and suffering because hitting is tough.
• 43:44
  Speaker 2: You know, not to go too long within it. But
• 43:45
  Speaker 2: it reminds me of a friend of mine told me
• 43:46
  Speaker 2: the other day we were talking about the h I
• 43:48
  Speaker 2: think it's a Sissyphus story, and it was like like,
• 43:51
  Speaker 2: I'm like, that's hitting.
• 43:52
  Speaker 3: You know, it's pushing the boulder up the hill, you know, constantly, constantly,
• 43:57
  Speaker 3: and right when you get to the top before it's
• 43:59
  Speaker 3: going to roll all in down and you got to
• 44:01
  Speaker 3: push the boulder back up.
• 44:02
  Speaker 2: And Buck is that guy. That's the guy who you
• 44:05
  Speaker 2: want pushing the boulder because no matter what, he will
• 44:08
  Speaker 2: be relentless and he won't quit and he won't stop.
• 44:12
  Speaker 2: J Row.
• 44:12
  Speaker 1: We would be remiss in not chatting a little bit
• 44:15
  Speaker 1: about Aaron Judge. You referenced him earlier. You had a
• 44:17
  Speaker 1: chance to work with him in the minor leagues. You've
• 44:19
  Speaker 1: been astride him through most of his great seasons in
• 44:22
  Speaker 1: the major leagues as well. What fans may not realize though,
• 44:26
  Speaker 1: is in twenty fifteen he kind of struggled at the
• 44:29
  Speaker 1: Triple A level and was demoted down to Double A
• 44:31
  Speaker 1: before he had his meteoric rise. But even his major
• 44:34
  Speaker 1: league debut was a little bit lackluster. Can you tell
• 44:37
  Speaker 1: us a little bit of what what is this guy like?
• 44:39
  Speaker 1: We see the absolute epic performance that he puts on
• 44:43
  Speaker 1: between the white lines, and it's not just what he
• 44:44
  Speaker 1: does at the batter's box, it's what he does in
• 44:46
  Speaker 1: the outfield. But also he's one of very few people
• 44:50
  Speaker 1: in my understanding to ever wear a seat on his
• 44:52
  Speaker 1: chest for the New York Yankees as the captain of
• 44:54
  Speaker 1: the team. What is this guy's personality like? What drives him?
• 44:59
  Speaker 2: I mean that word, I would say driven. Maybe one
• 45:03
  Speaker 2: of the most driven human beings I've come across in
• 45:07
  Speaker 2: this game. But you know, Judges, you know it's special
• 45:11
  Speaker 2: for me because I got an opportunity to see him
• 45:14
  Speaker 2: before what he's become now and I've seen him go
• 45:19
  Speaker 2: through that process. And what I say about Judge is
• 45:23
  Speaker 2: the most important thing to me is he is one
• 45:25
  Speaker 2: of the most humble dudes that you're gonna come across.
• 45:28
  Speaker 2: For a guy that can do what he does and
• 45:30
  Speaker 2: touches so many people, and it is so great at
• 45:32
  Speaker 2: this game, he is so humble and his mindset is
• 45:36
  Speaker 2: to help every teammate more than himself. This guy is
• 45:40
  Speaker 2: one of a kind when it comes to, you know,
• 45:42
  Speaker 2: being that type of teammate. And that's the reason the
• 45:44
  Speaker 2: sea's on his chest. He walks in the room, he
• 45:46
  Speaker 2: commands respect. But what I can tell you is that
• 45:50
  Speaker 2: the same way he was when he was a young
• 45:52
  Speaker 2: kid in Charleston, and those same that same driven mentality,
• 45:55
  Speaker 2: but that same respect for his teammates and his coaches,
• 45:58
  Speaker 2: and and the grounds and the chefs in the kitchen
• 46:02
  Speaker 2: and the training staff, anyone who this guy comes across.
• 46:06
  Speaker 2: He treats you like you're the most important person on
• 46:09
  Speaker 2: the planet. And he's done that ever since I've known him.
• 46:12
  Speaker 2: And that's more impressive to me than the player on
• 46:15
  Speaker 2: the field. And let me tell you, the player on
• 46:16
  Speaker 2: the field is really impressive. So what he could do
• 46:20
  Speaker 2: on the baseball field now to that point is incredible.
• 46:22
  Speaker 2: But to your point, you see what he does now,
• 46:26
  Speaker 2: but this didn't come easy to him. He had to
• 46:29
  Speaker 2: work at it. He went through spells of changing his
• 46:32
  Speaker 2: swing and learning different things and kind of having to
• 46:35
  Speaker 2: figure out along the way. He had a high punch
• 46:38
  Speaker 2: out rate, you know, his first year or so in
• 46:40
  Speaker 2: the big leagues, and obviously people have a question, was
• 46:42
  Speaker 2: just gonna work? Is this not gonna work? He had
• 46:44
  Speaker 2: no doubts. He was that guy that was driven. He
• 46:47
  Speaker 2: knew it would work. He believed in himself, and you know,
• 46:50
  Speaker 2: he used every every lane that he could use in
• 46:54
  Speaker 2: order to kind of accomplish his goal. And like, right now,
• 46:57
  Speaker 2: what you see he deserves every ounce of it because
• 47:00
  Speaker 2: it comes from a lot of hard work and it
• 47:02
  Speaker 2: was not easy for him to get there.
• 47:05
  Speaker 1: Well, it sounds like he's a tremendous class act. He
• 47:07
  Speaker 1: carries himself that way, and as you know better than anybody,
• 47:11
  Speaker 1: the scrutiny and pressure of playing in New York is exceptional.
• 47:13
  Speaker 1: And it's thank goodness he finally started listening to you
• 47:16
  Speaker 1: in the weight room. Otherwise, Lord knows what his body
• 47:18
  Speaker 1: would look like today. Right, yeah, right, j ro I
• 47:25
  Speaker 1: got to ask the question twenty nineteen, we go into
• 47:28
  Speaker 1: spring training, did you have any idea we were in
• 47:31
  Speaker 1: stage for such an epic offensive season and for the
• 47:35
  Speaker 1: fans out there. The Twins ended up setting a major
• 47:38
  Speaker 1: League Baseball record with three hundred and seven home runs
• 47:41
  Speaker 1: as a team, setting a franchise record and home runs runs, RBIs,
• 47:45
  Speaker 1: batting average, slugging percentage ops, every stat on the book.
• 47:49
  Speaker 1: You were the hitting coach of that team. What were
• 47:51
  Speaker 1: your impressions walking into that season and how much did
• 47:54
  Speaker 1: we overachieve with the incredible laser light show we put
• 47:58
  Speaker 1: on on a nightly basis.
• 48:00
  Speaker 2: Oh, of course I knew right away, no chance. That
• 48:06
  Speaker 2: was so fun, right because you know that when I
• 48:10
  Speaker 2: think about that team and that group and that time,
• 48:13
  Speaker 2: you know, I cannot, you know, discount the culture. What
• 48:17
  Speaker 2: a great culture, What a great group of guys, What
• 48:20
  Speaker 2: a group of guys that were just fun, energetic, fighting
• 48:23
  Speaker 2: for one another. You know, it's amazing. We set the
• 48:25
  Speaker 2: home run record. We never talked about home runs. It
• 48:29
  Speaker 2: was nothing that was like, hey, we're gonna It was
• 48:32
  Speaker 2: more about like going in to your point, being the
• 48:34
  Speaker 2: best version of yourself. We tried to create an environment.
• 48:38
  Speaker 2: I think the most important thing in a clubhouse and
• 48:40
  Speaker 2: in a group, and we had that with that group,
• 48:43
  Speaker 2: is that everyone can't wait to show up to work
• 48:45
  Speaker 2: that day. If you have a group of guys that
• 48:48
  Speaker 2: are looking forward to showing up every day, you got
• 48:50
  Speaker 2: something special that's happening when when guys are looking forward
• 48:53
  Speaker 2: to come into the ballpark. And we had a group
• 48:55
  Speaker 2: that was looking forward to come into the park. So
• 48:58
  Speaker 2: it made learning fun, It made the age fun, We
• 49:00
  Speaker 2: made the environment fund, we played games, we did other things.
• 49:03
  Speaker 2: So I think the fact that they enjoyed showing up
• 49:07
  Speaker 2: was a big part of it because then we could
• 49:09
  Speaker 2: work on things, We could start those conversations, we could
• 49:11
  Speaker 2: work through it. We had great players on that team.
• 49:14
  Speaker 2: You know, we had Nelson Cruz that had just come
• 49:16
  Speaker 2: in that year, and what a leader he is and
• 49:18
  Speaker 2: what a human being he is that guys could pull on.
• 49:20
  Speaker 2: We had guys that had played, you know, in previous
• 49:23
  Speaker 2: years with Joe Mauer, So we had that type of
• 49:27
  Speaker 2: group around and those people around to lean on to
• 49:30
  Speaker 2: try to help this group succeed. But it was really
• 49:33
  Speaker 2: the players. Our players were so electric and so energized
• 49:39
  Speaker 2: every day and coming to the park was fun and
• 49:42
  Speaker 2: they made it special. And you know, all those records
• 49:45
  Speaker 2: were great, but you know, the records were great, but
• 49:48
  Speaker 2: the times we spent together were better and I just
• 49:51
  Speaker 2: kind of reflect on that group and those times, and
• 49:53
  Speaker 2: it's always a special time for me. Yeah.
• 49:56
  Speaker 1: We talk about the competitive championship lifele and the last
• 50:01
  Speaker 1: rung on that ladder to me is when you go
• 50:03
  Speaker 1: to the ballpark every night expecting to win. Not only
• 50:06
  Speaker 1: did we expect to win, but we expected to do
• 50:08
  Speaker 1: some really mean things to baseballs every night, and it
• 50:11
  Speaker 1: was it was so much fun to watch. You were
• 50:13
  Speaker 1: a huge part of that. It's such a bonding moment
• 50:16
  Speaker 1: for all of us. James, last last topic I just
• 50:18
  Speaker 1: want to hit you on is you won't talk about this,
• 50:21
  Speaker 1: but I will. You are a exceptionally gifted managerial candidate.
• 50:27
  Speaker 1: As you prepare for interviews that you will have in
• 50:29
  Speaker 1: the future and that you have had already, how do
• 50:32
  Speaker 1: you present What does a James Rouson led clubhouse look
• 50:36
  Speaker 1: like from a cultural standpoint? You mentioned earlier how vital
• 50:39
  Speaker 1: culture is to the one hundred and sixty two game season.
• 50:42
  Speaker 1: What does it look like, what does it sound like?
• 50:44
  Speaker 1: What type of values do you want to still in
• 50:46
  Speaker 1: your clubhouse if you were to manage in the major leagues.
• 50:50
  Speaker 2: You know, you know, it's a great question, like to me,
• 50:53
  Speaker 2: so it so much goes back to the being authentically yourself.
• 50:59
  Speaker 2: You just want to get people to be the best
• 51:01
  Speaker 2: that they can be. You want a group of guys
• 51:03
  Speaker 2: that are driven, a group of guys that understand, like
• 51:06
  Speaker 2: if you can do this thing together as a group.
• 51:08
  Speaker 2: And that's and that When I say a group of guys,
• 51:10
  Speaker 2: I mean an organization. When you're in that and that seat,
• 51:13
  Speaker 2: your job is to bring people together. Your job is
• 51:16
  Speaker 2: to bring the group together and and get us to
• 51:18
  Speaker 2: go fight and be the best that we can be.
• 51:21
  Speaker 2: And I think like that's what this embodies to me.
• 51:24
  Speaker 2: I mean, I feel like it embodies greatness and it's
• 51:28
  Speaker 2: empowering others to be great. And it's also kind of
• 51:31
  Speaker 2: being that example at times and be in that steady
• 51:35
  Speaker 2: rock because baseball is a sport where there's ups and
• 51:38
  Speaker 2: downs and you can't ride the roller coaster. You know,
• 51:41
  Speaker 2: roller coasters make you sick. You got to be able
• 51:43
  Speaker 2: to have that mentality to stay consistent, be stable, but
• 51:47
  Speaker 2: yet keep people in a position that they feel very
• 51:50
  Speaker 2: comfortable that we're going to eventually move this needle and
• 51:52
  Speaker 2: we're going to continue to move forward. So I'm so
• 51:55
  Speaker 2: mental and it's such a mindset for me and if
• 51:58
  Speaker 2: there's anything that I would bring to a group, it's
• 52:00
  Speaker 2: just that mentality and that mindset that like, we're going
• 52:04
  Speaker 2: to be great, we will find a way and like
• 52:06
  Speaker 2: go from there. And it's the same thing I do
• 52:08
  Speaker 2: now in a hitting room. It's a matter of like
• 52:11
  Speaker 2: getting these guys to fight and pull on the rope
• 52:13
  Speaker 2: in the same direction and realize how great we are
• 52:16
  Speaker 2: as a group and how great we are together. So like,
• 52:19
  Speaker 2: you know, you can go travel down that road so much,
• 52:22
  Speaker 2: but you know, I believe the mentality of this is
• 52:25
  Speaker 2: so important in the clubhouse because when you get athletes
• 52:28
  Speaker 2: that are that good at what they do on both
• 52:30
  Speaker 2: sides of the ball, you get organization and people that
• 52:33
  Speaker 2: are that good at what they do all pulling in
• 52:36
  Speaker 2: one direction, you're going to have an opportunity to create
• 52:38
  Speaker 2: something special.
• 52:40
  Speaker 1: James, one of the things that I always admired about
• 52:42
  Speaker 1: you was you managed a thirteen man position player unit
• 52:46
  Speaker 1: as the hitting coach, but I think you made everybody
• 52:49
  Speaker 1: feel like they were one of the five most important
• 52:51
  Speaker 1: guys on the team, whether they were actually hitting cleanup
• 52:54
  Speaker 1: or if they were a platoon utility player. You made
• 52:57
  Speaker 1: everyone feel like they were part of something special I
• 52:59
  Speaker 1: would expect you would do the same as a manager.
• 53:01
  Speaker 1: You just talked about trying to create a environment where
• 53:04
  Speaker 1: everyone could be their best, but also really communicating to
• 53:07
  Speaker 1: them the role they play and the collective outcome of
• 53:10
  Speaker 1: us collectively being our best is one of your just
• 53:13
  Speaker 1: amazing gifts you made everyone. Everything you said about Aaron Judge,
• 53:16
  Speaker 1: I would say the same thing about you in terms
• 53:18
  Speaker 1: of your respect and reverence for everyone in the game.
• 53:21
  Speaker 1: No person or role is too small. Everything adds up
• 53:25
  Speaker 1: to a championship culture. That's how you conducted yourself as
• 53:28
  Speaker 1: a hitting coach. I would expect that's exactly how you
• 53:30
  Speaker 1: conduct yourself as a manager and what makes you such
• 53:33
  Speaker 1: an exciting candidate to serve in that role at some
• 53:36
  Speaker 1: point in your career when the time is right. I've
• 53:39
  Speaker 1: always been a believer that good things happen to good people,
• 53:42
  Speaker 1: but if you want something great to happen for you
• 53:44
  Speaker 1: may need to go get it. At some points. You've
• 53:46
  Speaker 1: made different decisions at your point in your career that
• 53:49
  Speaker 1: we're family based or faith based, and I think you'll
• 53:51
  Speaker 1: continue to do that. It will continue to put you
• 53:53
  Speaker 1: in these positions where you'll have options and at one
• 53:57
  Speaker 1: point you were going to be leading a major league
• 53:58
  Speaker 1: franchise and they will be much better for having hired you.
• 54:02
  Speaker 2: Well, I definitely appreciate that. Let's appreciate the centiment there,
• 54:06
  Speaker 2: and you know, like are my mindset is always be
• 54:09
  Speaker 2: where your feet are, and like right now, you know,
• 54:12
  Speaker 2: in the role I man, I'm like, hey, let's go
• 54:14
  Speaker 2: dominate this thing. Let's go win a championship. But to
• 54:16
  Speaker 2: your point, I'm always a believer in the right time,
• 54:20
  Speaker 2: things will happen and just be prepared for that time.
• 54:23
  Speaker 2: And the reality is if those things didn't happen, like
• 54:27
  Speaker 2: you were prepared, you're in a good space. And that's
• 54:29
  Speaker 2: what we do. Like you know, so my thought is
• 54:32
  Speaker 2: to always be prepared, always be ready and things that
• 54:35
  Speaker 2: come my way. I'm I'm super excited to take on
• 54:38
  Speaker 2: different challenges, but at the same time, I'm very comfortable
• 54:42
  Speaker 2: in my mindset of like just going out every day
• 54:45
  Speaker 2: and dominating the day.
• 54:47
  Speaker 1: You've got a big job in front of you, James.
• 54:51
  Speaker 1: I know that you've been very passionate throughout your career
• 54:55
  Speaker 1: about this notion that the game needs more black stars
• 54:59
  Speaker 1: to inspire next generation of black athletes to play baseball.
• 55:03
  Speaker 1: Rather than continue to play football, basketball and other sports.
• 55:07
  Speaker 1: I looked at the numbers before we started our conversation.
• 55:10
  Speaker 1: We're up to six point eight percent of our players
• 55:13
  Speaker 1: in the major leagues are black. It's it's sad to
• 55:16
  Speaker 1: say that that's actually an improvement over the last two years.
• 55:18
  Speaker 1: I think it was six percent two years ago. The
• 55:21
  Speaker 1: number is still too low, But I just be curious,
• 55:23
  Speaker 1: what is your perception today? Who were some of the
• 55:26
  Speaker 1: stars you looked up to as a kid. How do
• 55:28
  Speaker 1: you feel the general health of the game is today.
• 55:33
  Speaker 2: Obviously, you know we need to continue to move the
• 55:36
  Speaker 2: needle in that area. It's to your point, it's gotten better,
• 55:39
  Speaker 2: but not nearly to where it needs to be, and
• 55:42
  Speaker 2: I think it's important that that we continue pushing in
• 55:44
  Speaker 2: that area. For me, it was and I talk about
• 55:47
  Speaker 2: that a lot, because you know, economics tends to lead
• 55:50
  Speaker 2: this conversation a lot of times in terms of that,
• 55:54
  Speaker 2: and it's a real part of it. But I think
• 55:56
  Speaker 2: more importantly the part of it is that, you know,
• 56:00
  Speaker 2: seeing people that look like you play the game is important.
• 56:04
  Speaker 2: I remember being a young kid, and again I loved
• 56:06
  Speaker 2: every sport, but when I you know, growing up in
• 56:09
  Speaker 2: New York, I could look on the TV and I
• 56:11
  Speaker 2: saw Darryl Strawberry, I saw Dwight Good, and I saw
• 56:13
  Speaker 2: Ricky Henderson, I saw Dave Winfield. You know, I'd go
• 56:17
  Speaker 2: out in the playground and pretend to be those guys playing.
• 56:21
  Speaker 2: I used to catch balls, snatch him out of the air,
• 56:23
  Speaker 2: saying I was Ricky Henderson because of his style and
• 56:26
  Speaker 2: pop the chain or the shirt, and you know, this
• 56:30
  Speaker 2: is what you learn to play. And when you see
• 56:32
  Speaker 2: guys that look like you playing the game as a
• 56:35
  Speaker 2: young black kid, it inspires you to go out there
• 56:38
  Speaker 2: and be those guys. The fact that you know, we
• 56:40
  Speaker 2: don't have as many players and they're not as many,
• 56:43
  Speaker 2: they're not seen as much. I felt like in our
• 56:46
  Speaker 2: local market there were so many more commercials. I remember
• 56:49
  Speaker 2: the Doctor Dwight Good and Doctor K commercial and the
• 56:53
  Speaker 2: Darryl Strawberry milk Like we saw them all the time,
• 56:56
  Speaker 2: whether it be local TV commercials, whether it be you
• 56:59
  Speaker 2: know things, and it helped. That site helped you want
• 57:03
  Speaker 2: to become those players. And I think like we need
• 57:06
  Speaker 2: to continue to put our black players in a place
• 57:09
  Speaker 2: where young kids can see them, young kids have more
• 57:12
  Speaker 2: access to kind of having that vision of Hey, here's
• 57:16
  Speaker 2: what it looks like. You know, I want a young
• 57:18
  Speaker 2: kid to look at Byron Buckston play and say, yeah,
• 57:20
  Speaker 2: I want to do that. I want to be Byron Buckston.
• 57:22
  Speaker 2: You know, look at these guys. You look at young
• 57:24
  Speaker 2: players like Jazz Chisholm, who has so much you know,
• 57:29
  Speaker 2: Silent Bazaz and you know, regardless of what you think
• 57:32
  Speaker 2: about it, young generations love those things. I think he's
• 57:36
  Speaker 2: gonna help bring so many more young players to the
• 57:39
  Speaker 2: game because of what he does, you know, regardless of
• 57:43
  Speaker 2: your thoughts. I mean, people think have different opinions, but
• 57:45
  Speaker 2: I think it's important that he expresses himself and people
• 57:48
  Speaker 2: will see that and like being dear to the game.
• 57:51
  Speaker 2: So again, I feel like the more we can just
• 57:53
  Speaker 2: showcase the players, the coaches, the levels of talent that
• 57:57
  Speaker 2: we have in the black community in Major League Baseball,
• 58:01
  Speaker 2: it's going to help. You know, others want to join
• 58:03
  Speaker 2: that because they're going to see people that look like
• 58:06
  Speaker 2: them doing the job.
• 58:08
  Speaker 1: And James, I think that holds true for the coaching staffs,
• 58:11
  Speaker 1: for managers, and certainly for front office executives. We need
• 58:15
  Speaker 1: to continue to make sure we're doing the best we
• 58:18
  Speaker 1: can to diversify in every way, shape and form. I
• 58:21
  Speaker 1: think the Commissioner's office is focused on that. It's a
• 58:24
  Speaker 1: challenge to actually execute against. But the more good ideas
• 58:28
  Speaker 1: people like yourself have, like, let's share them, because we
• 58:31
  Speaker 1: do need to continue to diversify our game. We're just
• 58:34
  Speaker 1: better for it. The last question I have for you,
• 58:37
  Speaker 1: James is recently you were honored by your hometown, Mount Vernon,
• 58:40
  Speaker 1: New York, with a proclamation for your outstanding achievements and
• 58:44
  Speaker 1: contribution to baseball. What did that mean to you and
• 58:47
  Speaker 1: what did that mean to your family.
• 58:50
  Speaker 2: Everything. You know, it's where I was born and raised,
• 58:53
  Speaker 2: It's where my dad was born and raised. The cool
• 58:56
  Speaker 2: part was my dad got to come up for that
• 59:00
  Speaker 2: ceremonies so and and the best thing was, you know,
• 59:02
  Speaker 2: it wasn't it wasn't at some huge hall somewhere or something.
• 59:07
  Speaker 2: You know, it was right at the little league fields
• 59:10
  Speaker 2: that I played on. Is where the ceremony happened, which
• 59:13
  Speaker 2: was for me one of the coolest things. Was like
• 59:15
  Speaker 2: it was just like a return to where everything started.
• 59:18
  Speaker 2: And you know, you know again that town, Malvernon is
• 59:22
  Speaker 2: four square miles. It's a small town here in New York.
• 59:26
  Speaker 2: But it means a lot to me. It's where it
• 59:29
  Speaker 2: started for me, and I was just honored that they would,
• 59:33
  Speaker 2: you know, consider giving me that proclamation. So many people
• 59:39
  Speaker 2: have come from there, and I felt like I was
• 59:40
  Speaker 2: accepting it for so many other people. But what was
• 59:43
  Speaker 2: so rewarding was the people that showed up were people
• 59:46
  Speaker 2: that were there when I was in Little League. And
• 59:50
  Speaker 2: what you realize is how much how many people in
• 59:53
  Speaker 2: this game. You know, it's so important that you remember
• 59:56
  Speaker 2: those things because a lot of people are watching you,
• 59:59
  Speaker 2: and you mean a to a lot of people who
• 1:00:01
  Speaker 2: saw you start, and sometimes you forget that, and those
• 1:00:05
  Speaker 2: things are rewarding to others that have kind of been
• 1:00:07
  Speaker 2: in this journey with you along the way. So it
• 1:00:10
  Speaker 2: was awesome to see how many people were in that
• 1:00:12
  Speaker 2: journey with me along the way and battling with me.
• 1:00:14
  Speaker 2: And to come back and just to be able to
• 1:00:17
  Speaker 2: see everybody literally coaches that had me, a little people
• 1:00:20
  Speaker 2: that were around was pretty special for me and really
• 1:00:24
  Speaker 2: really special for my family, who was again, like I said,
• 1:00:27
  Speaker 2: my dad was born and raised in my right and
• 1:00:29
  Speaker 2: so it was really special to the Jay Row.
• 1:00:31
  Speaker 1: It is kind of cool to have a lifetime Achievement
• 1:00:34
  Speaker 1: Award when you're still right in the middle of your career.
• 1:00:37
  Speaker 1: There's a lot more to come, but it's a humbling experience,
• 1:00:41
  Speaker 1: very well deserved, Jay Row, I want to leave you
• 1:00:43
  Speaker 1: with this quote from a mutual friend of ours, Sean Johnson,
• 1:00:47
  Speaker 1: who is the current assistant general manager of the Minnesota Twins,
• 1:00:50
  Speaker 1: said this about you, or says this about you, and
• 1:00:52
  Speaker 1: I'm going to read it. I think what I like
• 1:00:54
  Speaker 1: the most about j Row is how he makes people feel.
• 1:00:58
  Speaker 1: He's a guy you want to be around, and I
• 1:00:59
  Speaker 1: think he's caple of making people feel ten feet tall.
• 1:01:02
  Speaker 1: I think he has a fat head of Mike Tomlin
• 1:01:05
  Speaker 1: in his bedroom because that's the type of legacy he's
• 1:01:07
  Speaker 1: going to have as he leads throughout his career. And
• 1:01:10
  Speaker 1: that's a I think that's very well said by Sean.
• 1:01:14
  Speaker 1: I don't know James, I don't know Mike Tomlin personally,
• 1:01:18
  Speaker 1: but that's a tremendous comp and a hell of a legacy.
• 1:01:21
  Speaker 1: But James, I want to just thank you so much
• 1:01:24
  Speaker 1: for your friendship over the years, all that you have
• 1:01:27
  Speaker 1: taught me. We've had so many great leadership conversations and collaborations.
• 1:01:31
  Speaker 1: I'm ecstatic to see your performance currently in your career
• 1:01:36
  Speaker 1: and also what the future holds for you. But thank
• 1:01:38
  Speaker 1: you more than anything for coming on rosters Rings with
• 1:01:41
  Speaker 1: us today and sharing your heart and your wisdom with
• 1:01:44
  Speaker 1: the listeners.
• 1:01:45
  Speaker 2: Thanks that I appreciate you having me on, and I
• 1:01:48
  Speaker 2: appreciate and value our friendship.
• 1:01:50
  Speaker 1: Man Well, please join us this Thursday and every Thursday
• 1:01:54
  Speaker 1: on rosters to Rings. Please join me, host bad Levine
• 1:02:01
  Speaker 1: and other general managers every week for roster Syrings on Apple, Spotify,
• 1:02:07
  Speaker 1: or wherever you get your podcasts.
• 1:02:10
  Speaker 3: Welcome,