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AIM High: Segmentation as part of your marketing strategy · Two in Twenty

• 0:02
  SPEAKER_01: Hello, and welcome to another episode of ANGI, the podcast for investment marketers.
• 0:07
  SPEAKER_01: My name is Twinkle Field, and I'm the CEO of White Model Marketing.
• 0:12
  SPEAKER_01: In today's episode, we're talking about segmentation.
• 0:16
  SPEAKER_01: We hear about it a lot more, we're helping talk about it a lot more.
• 0:20
  SPEAKER_01: And it's certainly been seen as a key way to help serve your customers better through better insight and leveraging your data.
• 0:30
  SPEAKER_01: So we thought it was a great subject to bring to the podcast series.
• 0:35
  SPEAKER_01: And we've got two guests this week with great insights around the data.
• 0:41
  SPEAKER_01: Baba Opetu and Tabra decide.
• 0:46
  SPEAKER_01: Tabra is a white model and one of our own.
• 0:51
  SPEAKER_01: I think a healthcare and pharmaceutical background, but who's really deep expertise, having studied segmentation in great detail.
• 0:59
  SPEAKER_01: So I shall hand over to them.
• 1:04
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you so much, Tabra, for joining me today to talk about segmentation.
• 1:08
  SPEAKER_01: I think we are talking about it a lot more with our clients, I think it's being implemented, extended increasingly in marketing strategy.
• 1:18
  SPEAKER_01: So it feels like a really relevant subject to bring to our podcast series.
• 1:24
  SPEAKER_01: So maybe we can start with each of you giving a brief introduction to ourselves, but also maybe maybe just starting with what do we mean by segmentation and why should we bother?
• 1:34
  SPEAKER_01: Maybe we should come to you first, Baba, and then Tabra afterwards.
• 1:37
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, um, Baba Alpetu.
• 1:39
  SPEAKER_00: Um brief introduction.
• 1:41
  SPEAKER_00: I'm um 20 years experience working in the marketing space, largely within healthcare.
• 1:48
  SPEAKER_00: Um spent some time as well um lecturing and writing, and segmentation in particular has been a topic of interest over the time because I did a dissertation many years ago on segmentation, and since then it's been a key area of um of interest.
• 2:04
  SPEAKER_00: To your point in terms of why bother with segmentation, I think segmentation is can be complicated and can be difficult, but it's one of the foundational pieces of marketing strategy.
• 2:18
  SPEAKER_00: It's when organizations can get this right, it can really unleash opportunities for growth, opportunities to get closer to customers and to get better insights.
• 2:31
  SPEAKER_00: And whilst it can seem a bit cumbersome and difficult to get our heads around, those who are able to engage with it, it delivers significant benefits.
• 2:42
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you, Baba.
• 2:43
  SPEAKER_02: Hey Tebra, how about you?
• 2:44
  SPEAKER_02: Hi there, I'm Tabra Trasise, and I am the digital services manager at White Marble.
• 2:50
  SPEAKER_02: So I lead all of our digital engagements with our clients.
• 2:54
  SPEAKER_02: Um and I also work on our benchmarking service, Metrologist.
• 2:58
  SPEAKER_02: Um I am Australian, you might notice from my accent.
• 3:03
  SPEAKER_02: So my experience in digital marketing began in the telco industry back in Australia, and I've been in asset management since I moved to London back in 2018.
• 3:14
  SPEAKER_02: Um, when it comes to market segmentation, I agree, Baba.
• 3:19
  SPEAKER_02: Um it's it's complex, it's a bit ambiguous, it's difficult to get right, and as you say, it is really powerful.
• 3:27
  SPEAKER_02: I think when we think about segmentation, you know, there's a market there, there are individuals and organizations in that market, and there are needs in that market.
• 3:35
  SPEAKER_02: And segmentation is all about identifying those needs.
• 3:39
  SPEAKER_02: Um, so you know, you're not creating something, you're identifying something.
• 3:43
  SPEAKER_01: And so presumably, in order to identify those needs, we need to have pretty good data to be able to be interpreting and sort of creating those segments.
• 3:52
  SPEAKER_01: So perhaps an obvious way for in terms of a segmentation approach would be around the size of the client.
• 4:00
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but what else should we be thinking about really when when sort of bringing best practice to our approach?
• 4:06
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I I think that I think that we should work with the data that we have available.
• 4:11
  SPEAKER_00: And certainly the better the data, it does give more possibility.
• 4:15
  SPEAKER_00: But I think the important thing is that the insights into the needs of the customer, it's really the crux of what will help us to deliver better segmentation.
• 4:26
  SPEAKER_00: The data becomes really useful when it comes to implementing and addressing those segments.
• 4:32
  SPEAKER_00: And size can be a way of segmenting, but importantly is that it's more of a way of defining the segment because the segment has to have similar needs, and that's the core element that we need to be able to group them based on their needs, because all of the power in segmentation exists in the ability to deliver a superior proposition, and that's based on the fact that we have identified a set of needs that have um similarity.
• 5:03
  SPEAKER_00: Now, where we don't have enough data, if we know the data that we're missing, usually closing the gap is something that's possible to do.
• 5:12
  SPEAKER_02: I absolutely agree with everything Baba just said.
• 5:15
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and I think generally, when it comes to data, there's there's a hurdle, a mental hurdle, or a misconception that you need perfect data.
• 5:25
  SPEAKER_02: In the real world, perfect data doesn't exist and we need to stop chasing it.
• 5:29
  SPEAKER_02: We need to make use of what we've got.
• 5:32
  SPEAKER_02: I think when it comes to data, you know, we we really need to be pragmatic.
• 5:36
  SPEAKER_02: We need to have a good handle of what we've got.
• 5:38
  SPEAKER_02: And as Babba says, data isn't meaningful unless it comes with insight around what that data tells you about an individual or an organization's need.
• 5:47
  SPEAKER_02: Um, but I think, you know, when it comes to data and segmentation, you're not looking for data, you're looking for identifying needs, and you will use that data as a proxy to indicate what that need might be.
• 6:02
  SPEAKER_02: And you absolutely won't have the perfect data, you won't have the data that you want to have, but you will have some data.
• 6:09
  SPEAKER_02: And isolating just a few variables and the data that can act as proxies for those variables that are needs-based is how you can get started.
• 6:18
  SPEAKER_02: Just get going.
• 6:19
  SPEAKER_02: And I think once you identified the variables and therefore the data attached to those variables that you want to use to build your segmentation, you can start, and then you start creating your own data by working out what's working and what's not, and you just start testing and learning, testing and learning.
• 6:36
  SPEAKER_01: And Tabo, what might be some of the ways that asset managers might think about you know how they're grouping and clustering their clients?
• 6:45
  SPEAKER_02: Yes, yeah.
• 6:45
  SPEAKER_02: And you mentioned size earlier, Twink.
• 6:48
  SPEAKER_02: So assets under management, assets under advice, um, geographic location, these are all you know, staples of the current way that asset managers and investment managers are segmenting.
• 7:01
  SPEAKER_02: But there are a few challenges around that, which is everyone segmenting in the same way.
• 7:08
  SPEAKER_02: Um, that's not a particularly nuanced way to understand needs.
• 7:12
  SPEAKER_02: That's pretty, pretty rudimentary.
• 7:14
  SPEAKER_02: Um, you should be building onto that.
• 7:16
  SPEAKER_02: I'm not saying you should ignore things like AUM, but um size is only part of the story.
• 7:22
  SPEAKER_02: There's there's a lot more in terms of variables that you could input to have an insightful uh segmentation model.
• 7:29
  SPEAKER_02: Um, so thinking about things like investment time frame is an obvious one and risk appetite, um, and that you know, those are applicable across all client types in asset management.
• 7:43
  SPEAKER_02: But also things like for your wholesale market, um, what's the what type of service are they offering their end clients?
• 7:50
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and then even you know, within the institutional market, what industry do they belong to and how does that inform their investment objectives, their investing criteria?
• 8:01
  SPEAKER_02: There's um there's a whole wide range of variables and wide range of data points that you can pull on to build a really insightful segmentation model.
• 8:10
  SPEAKER_02: And of course, there's no point segmenting based on needs that you can't service.
• 8:15
  SPEAKER_02: So it's important to make sure that what you're isolating actually letters back to what you can offer um your clients.
• 8:23
  SPEAKER_01: Brilliant, thank you.
• 8:24
  SPEAKER_01: Um and and you mentioned, you know, the different companies will have maybe different strategies.
• 8:31
  SPEAKER_01: Perhaps we just explore that a bit, um, you know, sort of depending on their analysis of the market or maybe the you know the target market they're going after.
• 8:40
  SPEAKER_01: So maybe Babby, you can just kind of give us a bit more reflection on that.
• 8:44
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, absolutely.
• 8:45
  SPEAKER_00: But because segmentation is a process of discovery, and because segmentation in an ideal scenario should be contextualized, it should be about our organization and our context.
• 8:57
  SPEAKER_00: So, therefore, when two different organizations look at the same market, they could come to different conclusions because you're trying to identify segments and the way the market segment, the way the problem.
• 9:11
  SPEAKER_00: Um, one of my favorite definitions of segmentation, it's a way of organizing your customers so you can serve them.
• 9:20
  SPEAKER_00: But they are your customers, and so therefore, you're organizing the problems that exist within your space in order for you to understand the groups of problems that you want to focus on serving.
• 9:33
  SPEAKER_00: And so I think it's very likely that organizations look at it and come to different scenarios.
• 9:39
  SPEAKER_00: I the the old example of Ali Davidson, which is often which we talk about often, but the fact that that despite the fact that they make motorbikes, that the segments that they serve, the competitors within that segment are actually other luxury brands.
• 9:57
  SPEAKER_00: And then it's important that when a Suzuki looks at the market, they will come to different conclusions.
• 10:03
  SPEAKER_00: And I think that it's it is that distinction where we start to separate the product from the problem, and we realize that we may even have similar products, but we may be answering totally different questions.
• 10:18
  SPEAKER_00: And it is the questions that we're answering that we ultimately focused on, and you know, which is why any process of trying to segment the market is a process that is guaranteed to lead to an improvement in our understanding of our customer base.
• 10:34
  SPEAKER_02: Anything to add to that, Tabra?
• 10:35
  SPEAKER_02: Well, I can probably uh contextualize that in terms of asset management.
• 10:40
  SPEAKER_02: Um, what segmentation offers is a way to understand what needs your clients are trying to solve, and instead stop aligning yourself against product comparisons and start lining yourself up against needs and ways to solve those needs.
• 10:57
  SPEAKER_02: So, an example would be an individual investor, a retail investor who has a chunk of savings that that they want to do something with, and or not.
• 11:09
  SPEAKER_02: So, you know, the alternative to them, if you're an um a manager of an active fund, then you you aren't just the decision isn't just between your funds and other active funds.
• 11:21
  SPEAKER_02: That investor or not might choose to keep their savings in their current account, or they might choose to just transfer them to a slightly higher interest savings account, a fixed-term deposit, a passive fund.
• 11:35
  SPEAKER_02: Um, those are the real choices that they're facing and they're deciding.
• 11:38
  SPEAKER_02: And, you know, as their decision-making process narrows, they may end up deciding to invest in a fund and then deciding to invest between an active and passive, and then eventually deciding between active funds.
• 11:48
  SPEAKER_02: But it's important to be aware of you know those broader, um, that broader consideration step when it comes to how they want to solve that problem.
• 11:55
  SPEAKER_01: Brilliant, thank you.
• 11:56
  SPEAKER_01: Now I hadn't expected to talk about Harley Davidson on this podcast, so thank you for bringing that, Father.
• 12:02
  SPEAKER_01: Um, so you're right there.
• 12:03
  SPEAKER_01: So, in terms of how how we're serving our clients better, understanding their needs, um, and being more relevant in that regard, um, I think we can agree that probably most of the listeners will be thinking that's exactly what I'm wanting to do.
• 12:16
  SPEAKER_01: But what are the inherent challenges in doing that properly, you know, and how do we sort of help people sort of unstick those hurdles?
• 12:23
  SPEAKER_01: Um, maybe uh Baba, can I just come to you first on that as well?
• 12:26
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, sure.
• 12:27
  SPEAKER_00: Um I think that the challenge was segmentation can be daunting and can be seen like a big project in order to deliver.
• 12:37
  SPEAKER_00: And the other challenge is that often the connection between the benefits and the returns and the exercise sometimes are not made very well.
• 12:45
  SPEAKER_00: So I I think the two important points here is one is that to have a vision of how the approach of segmentation is going to be used eventually.
• 12:56
  SPEAKER_00: So, in other words, once there's an understanding that when we have a segmented view of our customers, it will mean that we have detailed, quantifiable um characteristics and needs of our customer base, which will drive all elements of the marketing mix and even innovation.
• 13:16
  SPEAKER_00: And if you know, if you imagine that, let's say those responsible for developing products, if they really got detailed definitions of existing segments in the market, and it can be a way of inspiring the solution.
• 13:31
  SPEAKER_00: And then ultimately, I think, is to start and to design something that works with the capability, the capacity, and the culture of the organization.
• 13:42
  SPEAKER_00: Keep it as simple as is necessary in order to make sure that it works because all the benefits come at the other side of implementation.
• 13:51
  SPEAKER_02: Absolutely.
• 13:52
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, um, there's no point building this rich, nuanced, highly detailed segmentation model if no one understands it and certainly no one understands how to use it.
• 14:00
  SPEAKER_02: So I completely agree, Baba.
• 14:02
  SPEAKER_02: And um I think it is tricky to keep to walk that line.
• 14:06
  SPEAKER_02: Um, I think there's a line of thinking around, well, you know, in our industry, this is how we've always done it, or this is how everyone does it.
• 14:15
  SPEAKER_02: And just a byproduct of that is that if you want to approach anything in a new way, you are challenging the status quo.
• 14:23
  SPEAKER_02: You are coming up with a bold new plan to break that mold and to come up with something different.
• 14:30
  SPEAKER_02: What that means is it can be an incredible source of competitive advantage.
• 14:34
  SPEAKER_02: That just tells you that by taking a different approach to the same market, you know, you're going to you're going to hone in on something really insightful and speak to that same market in a way that's really different.
• 14:46
  SPEAKER_02: Um, I also think that, you know, as you've said at the very beginning, Sabah, um, segmentation is daunting, it's it's complex, it's quite ambiguous.
• 14:57
  SPEAKER_02: Um, it can feel like quite a big, huge thing to go and go and tackle.
• 15:04
  SPEAKER_02: Um also it I do wonder if marketing teams have got the level of insight that they need about clients to truly come up with an insightful segmentation model.
• 15:18
  SPEAKER_02: Um they aren't the ones facing into clients every day.
• 15:21
  SPEAKER_02: That's the sales team.
• 15:22
  SPEAKER_02: And of course, segmentation should belong to everyone, it should work for everyone, and that's where I think the the really powerful segmentation models are going to come from, true collaboration between sales and marketing teams, um, because you'll get that insight from the from the sales side too.
• 15:39
  SPEAKER_01: Absolutely, and of course, bringing on board your partners on the sales front you know does take some persuasion.
• 15:46
  SPEAKER_01: And sometimes, you know, we need to use tax like kind of social proof of where we've seen it work in other places.
• 15:51
  SPEAKER_01: Um, so I totally agree also with your logic of start simple and then you can get more sophisticated as the insight develops.
• 15:59
  SPEAKER_01: So maybe, you know, with those two thoughts in mind, you could maybe share with us where where in other industries, that social proof point, where you've seen it work well, and how you sort of built on that insight.
• 16:11
  SPEAKER_01: Maybe Tabra, you could start start us there and then we'll come to Baba.
• 16:15
  SPEAKER_02: Sure.
• 16:16
  SPEAKER_02: Um, as I mentioned in my intro, uh my background is in telco.
• 16:20
  SPEAKER_02: So um I have the unique insight of having been on the phones in a in a call center talking to um telco clients when I was going through uni studying and accessing a CRM that had literal segmentation in each customer profile.
• 16:36
  SPEAKER_02: So, you know, that was interesting, and then going from there and working in their um digital team and their marketing, their chief marketing office.
• 16:44
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and so this telco that I worked for is ex-government.
• 16:49
  SPEAKER_02: Any audience will know exactly what one I'm talking about, and um, they they basically have a contact record for pretty much every Australian because their ex-government have been around so long.
• 16:59
  SPEAKER_02: They were sitting on a mountain of data and they came up with really insightful consumer segments, um, which is the main main area that I focused on when I was there, um, which you know they described in a really accessible way.
• 17:12
  SPEAKER_02: So they had a segment called Work Hard, Play Hard.
• 17:14
  SPEAKER_02: You almost immediately get a sense of what that segment means to that client's consumer uh sorry communication needs.
• 17:21
  SPEAKER_02: Um, but the interesting thing that I've found, you know, who has more data than a telco um is despite sitting on a mountain of data, uh there were still plenty of complaints that we didn't have enough data or we didn't have the right data or we weren't confident in the data we did have.
• 17:35
  SPEAKER_02: And I think what we all need to take away from that is as I've mentioned earlier, there is no perfect data situation you're going to find yourself in.
• 17:44
  SPEAKER_02: You need to work with what you've got, isolate what you can, make some assumptions and just get going.
• 17:49
  SPEAKER_02: Take a bet and start learning and creating your own data.
• 17:53
  SPEAKER_01: Brilliant advice.
• 17:54
  SPEAKER_01: Um Baba, to you, sort of where have you seen this sort of segmentation really sort of inform product and sort of service?
• 18:02
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, so there was a um in a pharmaceutical company um we I worked on a segmentation project, which was it to be fair, was didn't inform certainly product development.
• 18:14
  SPEAKER_00: They had an innovative product coming down the line and they wanted to take a different view of the market.
• 18:22
  SPEAKER_00: So it was a micro-segmentation in a sense.
• 18:25
  SPEAKER_00: They already had a set the way the market segmented, and what they did was they profile the customers according to their attitude to risk, and they used the diffusion of innovation model by Rogers to look at those who were innovators all the way down to Laggard.
• 18:40
  SPEAKER_00: What was interesting is that being able to identify those doctors who were willing to try innovative solutions immediately and to separate them for those who would try it, but they would only try later on.
• 18:57
  SPEAKER_00: And that approach was taken to segmenting the market, and the market was segmented that way, and this was a UK segmentation, so the 40,000 general practitioners in the UK were split into this segment fairly accurately, and the sales team and the marketing team worked effectively on this, and the launch of the product was phenomenal.
• 19:18
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, they had a fantastic take up, which was not surprising in the sense that the product was novel, it was really innovative, and they were addressing at the right point.
• 19:31
  SPEAKER_00: Now, as time went along through the product life cycle, they were able to move along and use the Rogers model to work through the cycle onto the early majority and to end up having a blockbuster.
• 19:45
  SPEAKER_01: Brilliant.
• 19:45
  SPEAKER_01: And then I guess just from that sort of pragmatic point we were talking about earlier, I mean, what's actually uh practical in terms of how many segments that we can realistically be embedding into our approach?
• 19:58
  SPEAKER_01: I know you know I talked to a lot of marketers who are sort of thinking, you know, we need to become more personalized and relevant, we're moving to a sort of one-to-one comms uh sort of strategy uh rather than the kind of one-to-many.
• 20:12
  SPEAKER_01: Um so what's the segmentation's role in that and how much can we really realistically grapple with when we're thinking about this?
• 20:20
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I think it's a I think it's a great point of discussion because uh ultimately the ideal segment is a segment of one.
• 20:30
  SPEAKER_00: However, we don't, because of efficiencies in economy of scales, it's not possible.
• 20:36
  SPEAKER_00: Hardly any organization is really able to deliver end-to-end proposition for each individual.
• 20:42
  SPEAKER_00: So the communication can still be one-to-one where it's possible.
• 20:47
  SPEAKER_00: But if we think about segmentation in the broader sense, where we're trying to influence service delivery, proposition, and the overall full marketing mix, in that context, I think we probably need to have segments that are manageable.
• 21:03
  SPEAKER_00: And whether they're three or four or ten or fifteen, there certainly need to be numbers that we're managing.
• 21:08
  SPEAKER_00: So we get the benefit of the economy of skills.
• 21:11
  SPEAKER_00: Knowing that all segments are wrong, what we're doing is that we're coming up with a group that's more right than those who are not segmenting.
• 21:19
  SPEAKER_00: Every segment is wrong.
• 21:21
  SPEAKER_00: And so it's this approximation, this ability to deal with and be comfortable with ambiguity and knowing that it's not perfect.
• 21:29
  SPEAKER_00: But um, I always remind me of the the the the comment once a friend told me that two, you know, two two guys being chased by a tiger and one stops to put on a pair of trainers, and his friend looks and says, Well, this is that's not gonna help you.
• 21:43
  SPEAKER_00: And he says, I only need to run faster than you.
• 21:46
  SPEAKER_00: We only need to have our segments defined so that we have a slightly clearer view, slightly improved insight than our competitors, and we can gain we can gain advantage.
• 21:56
  SPEAKER_00: So I would say that the one to one is fantastic when we think.
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_00: About communicating, but when we start to think about segmentation in a broader sense, we probably want to be working with tangible numbers in that sense.
• 22:09
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 22:09
  SPEAKER_01: Anything to add to that, Tebra?
• 22:12
  SPEAKER_02: Yes, I think when it comes to the number of segments, obviously, the bigger your organization, the more resource you have, the more opportunity you have to maybe split out into more detailed, nuanced segments, more segments, and you can feed those segments adequately.
• 22:29
  SPEAKER_02: Also, just because you identify a really large number of segments doesn't mean that you have to treat them all differently.
• 22:35
  SPEAKER_02: You could cluster them to make them more manageable.
• 22:38
  SPEAKER_02: And if you notice a sort of sub-segment behaving a little bit differently, not giving the traction that you need, you know, pick them off, pull them out, treat them a little bit different, and then see what happens from there.
• 22:48
  SPEAKER_02: I like to think about worst-case scenarios when it comes to segments and data.
• 22:54
  SPEAKER_02: As Baba said, they're all wrong.
• 22:57
  SPEAKER_02: And we have to be okay with the fact that, you know, there's no such thing as perfect segmentation.
• 23:03
  SPEAKER_02: But the worst case scenario is that you end up talking to an individual about a proposition that they just don't find very compelling, or you speak to them about that proposition that might be compelling to them in a way that doesn't really hit home.
• 23:15
  SPEAKER_02: And I just think that's really not a terrible worst case scenario.
• 23:19
  SPEAKER_02: Um, all you can do is just learn and improve from there.
• 23:22
  SPEAKER_02: So, you know, uh, I just wouldn't be wouldn't be afraid about getting it wrong.
• 23:26
  SPEAKER_01: And just get the insight from that to then to your point around test and learn and sort of kind of increasingly adding that insight to sort of how you go on to segment further or strategy.
• 23:37
  SPEAKER_01: So just back to type of one of your points around this this it can be a challenge to the status quo around how we've done things and sort of bringing on board um some of your some of our colleagues across the business.
• 23:49
  SPEAKER_01: Um, I I think for some, they would feel like you know, segmentation is the language and the interest of marketers.
• 23:55
  SPEAKER_01: So I guess what we're saying is it's absolutely not the case.
• 23:59
  SPEAKER_01: So, how do you how far do you think it goes within the business?
• 24:02
  SPEAKER_01: And how do we sort of bring people on board with with this quite complex um sort of approach, as well as the fact that it's not perfect and it's not gonna, you know, that we're gonna have to accept that it's um it's something that's evolving and we're gonna be testing and learning.
• 24:17
  SPEAKER_01: So it's not necessarily an easy sell, right, internally.
• 24:21
  SPEAKER_01: So, how do how do we tackle that with our colleagues?
• 24:25
  SPEAKER_02: Well, I think everyone in the business should be interested in what clients need.
• 24:29
  SPEAKER_02: That's what a segmentation model is, identifying groups of people who have the same needs.
• 24:34
  SPEAKER_02: So that needs to cascade across and down throughout the organization.
• 24:39
  SPEAKER_02: The people developing the products should be laser focused on what clients need.
• 24:45
  SPEAKER_02: Sales teams should be laser focused on what clients need.
• 24:47
  SPEAKER_02: Client servicing operations team should be laser focused on what clients need.
• 24:51
  SPEAKER_02: And of course, of course, marketing should be as well.
• 24:54
  SPEAKER_02: So, you know, if you just boil it down to the fact that we should all care about what our clients need, we should all care about identifying and servicing those needs better.
• 25:02
  SPEAKER_02: It's I think it's a really hard thing to try to rebut that everyone should care about this.
• 25:06
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, uh absolutely right.
• 25:08
  SPEAKER_01: Baber, and then anything, any other thoughts on that?
• 25:11
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I would say that also as well as it's one of those topics that we need to be continue to sell right from the beginning and throughout the project.
• 25:21
  SPEAKER_00: I also think that segmentation can be a bit of a, you know, in effect, most people think segmentation is just dividing customers into groups.
• 25:28
  SPEAKER_00: And I guess at its very basic, it can be that.
• 25:32
  SPEAKER_00: But also to remind them that this is a process of helping to improve the organization of our customers so we can serve them better.
• 25:41
  SPEAKER_00: So most of most companies will have some way that they think about their customers, big, medium, large, IU property.
• 25:47
  SPEAKER_00: You know, there will already be a set, and it's just taking that and refining it and improving it so that they can be more efficient in terms of the ability to service them.
• 25:58
  SPEAKER_00: And perhaps with some of the stakeholders not in marketing, it's important to have that elaboration around what exactly do we mean, and what will they get out of it in order to get their engagement.
• 26:11
  SPEAKER_01: And presumably, Barbara, it's a very sort of business strategy point.
• 26:14
  SPEAKER_01: You know, good segmentation allows you to rethink where you sit in the market, who your competitors are, or who you know who your competition is, right?
• 26:22
  SPEAKER_00: Absolutely.
• 26:24
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, to answer the question of who are we, without answering the question of who are we trying to serve, it's it's you can't you, you know, positioning and branding and targeting and all of these things should be post-segmentation.
• 26:39
  SPEAKER_00: You have to segment first, you have to know which customers, and even if you were going after all the segments, you still need to have some sort of prioritization so you know what's critical.
• 26:50
  SPEAKER_00: So I absolutely agree that you know the process of segmenting itself allows you to have a good thing, and you know, it's critical at any time in the current environment of all the changes that are going on in the you know, in the ecosystem is absolutely critical because what happens is that segments will be evolving, they'll be shrinking, they'll be changing, and those that are not getting under the bonnet and paying attention to what's going on, they will find that at some point the segments have disappeared.
• 27:25
  SPEAKER_01: So I guess um for our for our listeners to this podcast, thinking about their own segmentation approach and strategy, there's a lot to kind of contend with, you know, the sort of complex concept, uh the kind of sell-in that's required and and the sort of um the lack of the sort of perfect um data that they probably are sort of grappling with.
• 27:49
  SPEAKER_01: So what tips would you give people in terms of trying to start to bring some thinking that they sort of initiate and sort of test and learn to earlier comments, um, both of you?
• 28:03
  SPEAKER_01: What else what else should we be sharing in this um in this podcast just for people trying to improve or kind of better kind of their their strategy?
• 28:12
  SPEAKER_01: Tabra, maybe come to you first?
• 28:14
  SPEAKER_01: Sure.
• 28:15
  SPEAKER_02: Um I think our tips are probably littered throughout this this session, but um if you don't know what data you've got, so if you're in a marketing team and and um there's a CRM full of data about prospects and clients, if you don't know exactly what data points are in there, find out.
• 28:31
  SPEAKER_02: Um understand that.
• 28:32
  SPEAKER_02: But also that's not the only place you can get data.
• 28:35
  SPEAKER_02: Your website analytics, um your email analytics, um there's there's and you know, the the benefit of the rise of digital marketing is that we're tracking a lot more, we have a lot more data available, so you know create a bit of a catalogue of the data points that you do have, um, and then understand what what type of needs might those different data points indicate, or come up with the needs first and map back to the data points.
• 28:58
  SPEAKER_02: Um and as we've talked about already, you know, start small, don't go too crazy too quickly.
• 29:04
  SPEAKER_02: Um but I'd say the number one thing has to be it has to be a cross-company effort.
• 29:10
  SPEAKER_02: It has to it's not going to be attractive, it's not going to be properly utilized, it's not going to be as insightful if you do this in a silo off the side.
• 29:21
  SPEAKER_02: Um, I think that the sales marketing collaboration in particular, but don't disregard your client operations teams or your investment team can contribute to the insights that should build the foundation of your segmentation model.
• 29:33
  SPEAKER_02: I think you know, number one is it has to be cross-company.
• 29:35
  SPEAKER_02: And I'm I'm saying that knowing that that feels like quite an undertaking.
• 29:39
  SPEAKER_02: I know we are all busy executing and focusing, and it it's it's it's going to take proper focus, a big conscious decision to go after it, but um it will pay off.
• 29:52
  SPEAKER_01: Brilliant.
• 29:53
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you.
• 29:54
  SPEAKER_01: Babba, any final thoughts or tips from you?
• 29:58
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I would say that there's never probably been a more important and better time to be thinking about segmentation.
• 30:05
  SPEAKER_00: Markets are evolving and changing, and I think this is an important moment.
• 30:10
  SPEAKER_00: The beauty about segmentation, because it's a foundational piece of strategy, it does mean that it will answer questions beyond just what are our segments.
• 30:20
  SPEAKER_00: It'll answer questions about needs, about problem, about how well a service in them.
• 30:25
  SPEAKER_00: The other point is that what tends to happen is we underestimate the power of having a unified, coherent view of our customer base.
• 30:34
  SPEAKER_00: So as an organization, this is our customer, this is who they are, and that in itself brings a lot of power.
• 30:41
  SPEAKER_00: We all speak the same language, we understand the customers that we're targeting.
• 30:45
  SPEAKER_00: So I think that that also has incredible benefits.
• 30:48
  SPEAKER_00: But the other point is that it can inspire innovation in terms of our service, our offering, our engagement.
• 30:56
  SPEAKER_00: And um it is, yes, it can be ambiguous, yes, it can be cumbersome and difficult, but also to remember that we're saying this could be a source of competitive advantage.
• 31:08
  SPEAKER_00: And usually those things that can create competitive advantage are not easy.
• 31:13
  SPEAKER_00: They can be a little bit difficult and tricky.
• 31:16
  SPEAKER_00: And I would say start small, start small, start with the audit, as was mentioned, a piece of research to get an understanding and then build from there.
• 31:26
  SPEAKER_00: And it does start to deliver benefits on day one, albeit the big benefit comes at the end when we actually act on the segment of identified.
• 31:35
  SPEAKER_01: Brilliant, and I would also say, you know, we're um key that marketers continue to sort of lean into sort of more strategic positioning within the business.
• 31:42
  SPEAKER_01: And if you are embedding this and getting more insight around your needs of your customer, there's no better place to be as a marketer to help influence that sort of broader strategy.
• 31:51
  SPEAKER_01: So such a sort of fundamental part of um how you can sort of shift how marketing is seen and both at a sort of departmental level and also at a personal level.
• 32:00
  SPEAKER_02: One thing I might add as well to that is um just just picking up on Baba's point around everyone thinking the same way about client needs, um, have a really clear idea of you know how you want to actually use your segmentation model.
• 32:16
  SPEAKER_02: That's important, right?
• 32:17
  SPEAKER_02: As we know it shouldn't live in PowerPoint, it shouldn't just look pretty.
• 32:20
  SPEAKER_02: Um, but I think one other element that can possibly be overlooked is embedding that mindset throughout the business.
• 32:28
  SPEAKER_02: So, you know, if you come up with a segmentation model, a way to think about the market and their needs, and you do a little roadshow or you you present at various meetings, don't stop there, make sure that you know, everyone having sort of one-to-one conversations, that it's it's people asking clarifying questions, that people understand it, and then make sure, you know, from a marketing perspective, that every brief starts with what segments are being serviced by this particular campaign?
• 32:55
  SPEAKER_02: Do we need separate campaigns to service certain segments?
• 32:58
  SPEAKER_02: Whatever initiative that you're going after, you know, we there's no point building a segmentation model that really reflects the needs of your clients if you don't go and then apply it in your day-to-day life.
• 33:08
  SPEAKER_02: And, you know, I would think about the maybe the recent entry-level graduate who's just joined.
• 33:14
  SPEAKER_02: Do they understand the segmentation?
• 33:16
  SPEAKER_02: Do they understand how the work that they're doing ladders up to serving the needs of those clients?
• 33:21
  SPEAKER_02: I think that's incredibly important.
• 33:22
  SPEAKER_02: And I think we often take for granted that people have just absorbed that by osmosis.
• 33:26
  SPEAKER_02: And it doesn't happen that way.
• 33:27
  SPEAKER_02: We have to make a really concerted effort to make sure that everyone doesn't just nod their heads when it gets presented, but they can talk to it, they can understand it, they feel comfortable weaving it into conversations and briefs.
• 33:39
  SPEAKER_01: Fantastic.
• 33:40
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you both.
• 33:41
  SPEAKER_01: I'm conscious of time, so I just want to thank you both, Tabra, Beber, for taking time today to really walk us through the role and the fundamentals of sort of bringing great segmentation best practice to to our marketing strategy.
• 33:54
  SPEAKER_01: So thank you very, very much.
• 33:55
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you for having us.
• 33:57
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you.