Latest / Future Christian / Reimagining Seminary and Church Vitality — Insights from Doug Powe

Transcript

Reimagining Seminary and Church Vitality — Insights from Doug Powe · Future Christian

0:07
>> Paul: Welcome to the Future Christian Podcast, your
0:10
source for insights and ideas on how to lead your church in
0:13
the 21st century. At the Future Christian
0:16
Podcast, we talk to pastors, authors
0:19
and other faith leaders for helpful advice and practical
0:21
wisdom to help you and your community of faith
0:24
walk boldly into the future. Whether
0:27
you're a pastor, church leader, or a passionate member
0:30
of your faith community, this podcast is
0:33
designed to challenge, inspire, and equip
0:36
you with the tools you need for impactful ministry.
0:39
And now for a little bit about the guest for this episode.
0:44
>> Martha Tatarnic: Welcome to the Future Christian Podcast. Today,
0:47
Loren Richmond, Jr. Is in conversation with
0:50
the Reverend F. Douglas Poe Jr.
0:52
Dr. Poe is President of Phillips
0:55
Theological Seminary in Tulsa, Oklahoma
0:58
and an ordained elder in the United Methodist
1:01
Church. A noted scholar and author on
1:04
congregational vitality and evangelism,
1:07
he has written several books including the
1:09
Adept Church and Sustaining While
1:12
Disrupting. President Poe is a sought
1:15
after speaker on faith leadership and the future
1:18
of the church. A reminder, before we start
1:21
today's conversation, please take a moment to
1:23
subscribe to the podcast, leave a review and share
1:26
Future Christian with a friend. Connect with
1:29
Loren, Martha and Future Christian on
1:31
Instagram. Shoot us an email at, ah,
1:34
laurensonatemediapro.com
1:38
with comments, questions or ideas for
1:41
future episodes. Your support means a lot to
1:44
us in making this podcast possible.
1:56
>> Loren: Welcome to the Future Christian Podcast. I'm grateful
1:59
to be here recording live and in person with President
2:02
Doctor. Reverend Reverend Doctor what's your official title? Doug Powe.
2:05
>> Doug Powe: It is. And actually,
2:08
um, it is
2:10
of course President, uh, Powe, but
2:13
I'm actually the Muzan Biggs professor,
2:17
uh, of Methodist Studies at Phillips.
2:20
So it's exciting to, um,
2:23
be able to take on such a wonderful title that was
2:26
filled by, of course, ah, Dr. Biggs and
2:29
um, Dr. Blue, uh, previously, uh,
2:32
but more importantly my role as part.
2:34
>> Loren: Yeah, I'm looking forward to having that conversation. So we're
2:37
actually recording in person at
2:40
the General assembly of the Christian Church Disciples of Christ,
2:44
which is exciting. So if you hear some chatter and buzz and
2:46
maybe an interruption, that's what it is.
2:49
Uh, but let's begin, I suppose, with that. This is
2:52
your first General assembly of the Christian Church Disciples of
2:54
Christ.
2:56
>> Doug Powe: What do you think? It has been really,
2:59
really wonderful. I appreciate sort of
3:02
the, um, spirit throughout the
3:05
place and
3:07
worship has been creative and wonderful.
3:10
Um, kicked off by Dr. Uh, Bernice King.
3:13
>> Loren: Wasn't that great?
3:14
>> Doug Powe: Which was just, um, absolutely fantastic.
3:17
And the way she
3:20
connected it to her
3:22
father's, um, sort of
3:25
last course, uh, Speech and
3:28
Ultimate Assassination in Memphis,
3:31
uh, to leap to where we need to
3:35
go today and what we need to do now was, um,
3:38
really, really brilliant. So that was, um.
3:41
It was really sort of special to be a part, to hear
3:43
her, to make that sort of connection.
3:46
>> Loren: Yeah. I was like, I have. I want, if nothing else,
3:49
to be there.
3:52
I mean, I'm younger than you. I'm a white
3:55
man. So I think for me it was sort of startling and it
3:58
perhaps a good reminder to think like.
4:02
Like, uh, she's not that old. Like, this isn't. This is within
4:05
her lifetime.
4:06
>> Doug Powe: Yes.
4:07
>> Loren: Um, and that was a. Helpful, I think, reminders to. To be
4:10
reminded of the
4:12
past is not that long ago. And. And of course, like she did, she tied
4:15
it back. Like there's some things happening in the
4:18
moment which are very troubling.
4:20
>> Doug Powe: That's right. She, um. She made the connection
4:23
of sort of with all that
4:26
we thought we had accomplished. We find ourselves
4:30
sort of back at the many of the moments her
4:33
father faced. And she even talked about,
4:35
um, the story, which was a great story to
4:38
hear, uh, about when she, her
4:41
father was going to speak at the disciples
4:44
meeting. It wasn't, uh, the Christian church at that point, but
4:47
speak at the disciples meeting in Dallas, Texas.
4:50
And at that time, the pushback that was taking
4:53
place, but, uh, Disciples, you know,
4:56
were firm that we'll go to a different city if that's the
4:59
case. Uh, and that,
5:01
um, was. Was sort of a special story to
5:04
relate of. Um, it really was this sort of
5:07
the connection that the family had even to,
5:10
uh, disciple. So. Yeah, really a powerful way to begin.
5:13
>> Loren: Absolutely.
5:14
Well, so we're,
5:17
we're here and I want to hear about, you
5:20
know, you've just come on to Phillips Seminary. I'm really excited.
5:23
Like, I was so excited. Obviously we've talked before on the podcast.
5:26
I'll try to link some previous episodes we've talked,
5:29
but I was really excited because, like, I've been familiar with your
5:32
work, followed your work with the Lewis
5:34
center and even your podcast there.
5:37
So I was thrilled when I saw this news that you were being hired.
5:41
So you've been at Philips, what, a couple, three months?
5:44
>> Doug Powe: Six months, yeah. Oh, my gosh. I know. It's
5:46
amazing. Yeah. Six months.
5:48
>> Loren: What, like, what do you think? Like, what are
5:51
your initial observations?
5:53
>> Doug Powe: It really has been wonderful. Um, the
5:56
hospitality from, um, everyone has been
5:59
fantastic. The willingness to sort of,
6:02
uh, engage and entertain new
6:04
thoughts. Um, I couldn't have asked for
6:07
anything more. Phillips is really in a
6:10
wonderful and unique space where
6:14
we, um, are doing very well, doing very well
6:17
financially. Um, so Much so that
6:20
we're able to offer, ah,
6:22
100% scholarship help to
6:25
disciples and underrepresented
6:27
populations and 80% to pretty
6:30
much, um, everyone else. Um, and we do that
6:33
for of course, both Master, Divinity and Demon,
6:36
which is the unique piece.
6:38
Um, and I'm excited about that
6:41
because in today's world,
6:43
where, particularly in our area, and I'll talk about this a little
6:46
bit later, where many of the people are going to go into rural ministry,
6:50
um, they're not going to go into healing huge steeple
6:53
churches. To be able to help students to get through
6:56
seminary debt free, I think
6:59
is just tremendously huge. Um,
7:02
and it's a real gift. So I'm excited to be at
7:04
a place that can really offer that sort of financial
7:07
support to train students
7:10
well, but at the same time make sure that
7:13
they don't come out of seminary with this mountain of
7:16
debt that in some cases
7:19
happens, um, way too often for students who
7:22
are going to go into a similar place and not be able
7:25
to actually
7:28
maintain, uh, a good balance in their life.
7:31
Um, but, uh, the other piece that's
7:34
been exciting for me, frankly,
7:36
um, this has
7:39
been learning about Oklahoma
7:42
and Tulsa. I was familiar with it. I, um, was
7:45
at St. Paul School of Theology in uh,
7:48
Missouri for a while. So familiar with Oklahoma,
7:51
but really learning about the Tulsa area,
7:53
um, and just a commitment
7:56
there to sort of indigenous,
7:59
um, sort of, um,
8:01
studies and the individuals
8:04
and learning opportunities for
8:07
Phillips to even do more in that area.
8:10
Um, because it's such a critical piece of the history.
8:13
Um, um, and it's important, I think, uh,
8:16
for us to be part of making sure that
8:20
we, yeah, the stories are told and we offer
8:22
opportunities, uh, that take place,
8:25
um, to educate and
8:28
you know, make a difference also within the
8:30
indigenous community, respecting, of course.
8:33
>> Loren: Right.
8:35
>> Doug Powe: What is taking place already within those communities. So
8:38
it really has been. Been good and, um,
8:41
excited about the work that I'm going to get to do.
8:43
>> Loren: And certainly Phillips has done a lot around trying, uh,
8:46
to honor the legacy and memory of the
8:49
Tulsa race riots and lifting up those stories
8:52
that were silenced in many ways.
8:54
>> Doug Powe: Yeah. Um, it has been really
8:57
interesting. Um, I
8:59
grew up sort of knowing that history,
9:02
um, and didn't realize how unique
9:05
that was until I actually came
9:08
to Tulsa and heard from so
9:11
many people who grew up in Tulsa that they were
9:14
not familiar with the Tulsa
9:17
race sort of, uh, massacre
9:20
until much later in life and
9:23
recently that. That really. That history
9:27
just was hidden from them.
9:29
>> Loren: Wow.
9:29
>> Doug Powe: Um, so it is, um, in
9:32
some ways a gift that we're able to
9:35
do that lectureship, but also in some ways sad
9:38
that lectureship is necessary.
9:41
Um, my hope with it is that we're able
9:44
to not just do a historical
9:47
perspective of, uh, sort of this
9:50
is what happened, but it's more so to help us think
9:53
about the future and hopefully not to make the same
9:56
mistake again. And what are the signs and what are the things
9:58
we can do that we truly can
10:02
avoid these sort of things taking place
10:05
again, um, in our country? Because,
10:08
I mean, it's devastating. And the
10:10
impact. I mean, if you get an opportunity to come to
10:13
Tulsa, Ah. And as a community, of course, is
10:16
rebuilding, but, uh, the impact of what
10:19
it caused within the community is
10:22
devastating. Completely, uh, devastating.
10:24
>> Loren: Yeah. Yeah. And I think the. If I
10:27
read correctly, the mayor has been initiating some work
10:30
there too.
10:31
>> Doug Powe: The mayor has definitely been initiating work. Tulsa,
10:34
uh, has an African mayor, American, um, mayor, and
10:37
might be the first. I'm not. Don't quote me on that to be
10:40
certain, but, um, really wants
10:43
to sort of honor the legacy
10:47
of those who suffered by
10:49
giving back and is
10:52
initiating sort of, uh, educational
10:54
opportunities, um, for those who are
10:57
connected. And those educational opportunities,
11:00
I think are important. There are some who have been
11:03
critical, saying it's not gone far enough. And.
11:07
And I always caution people to say,
11:10
you know, we always want people to
11:13
sort of somehow magically wave a
11:16
wand and make m. Everything we want
11:19
happen. And I'm like, that rarely is the case. And
11:21
I think what he's trying to do is say we've got to
11:24
start someplace.
11:25
>> Loren: Sure.
11:26
>> Doug Powe: And, you know, and he's trying to put in
11:29
place that place where we can start to, uh,
11:31
actually try to
11:34
repair some of, uh, what has taken place
11:37
for the people who have suffered the most.
11:40
>> Loren: Well, I was really excited to see that when I read that.
11:42
Uh, so I think it's a great move
11:45
and great story.
11:47
I want to ask, when you think about Phillips and
11:49
certainly this episode, this conversation is going to
11:52
be very Disciples of Christ centric.
11:55
Uh, I hope to have bring in some insights
11:58
from your experience as a Methodist and Methodist
12:01
world. But I'm curious, when we think
12:04
about a conversation I have often on the podcast
12:07
is around theological education, certainly future of the
12:10
church. And I think theological education is very important to future
12:12
church. What are your
12:15
thoughts and I'm curious that are like any key priorities as you think
12:18
about the future that you're hoping to lead at Phillips?
12:22
>> Doug Powe: A couple that, um, I've
12:24
talked about. One is
12:28
Phillips, um, right now is in the midst
12:31
of, um, sort
12:34
of building a new building called Bedford House. Right.
12:36
Um, and, uh, very exciting. And Bedford
12:39
House is going to. We talk about as a place of
12:42
belonging. And that word belonging is
12:44
intentional. Intentional, um, in that,
12:47
um. Phillips, of course, is a progressive seminary in the
12:50
midst of a, uh, place in Oklahoma
12:53
that is not nearly quite as progressive. Right.
12:56
So when you think of belonging for all of the people
12:59
who have been marginalized or underrepresented,
13:02
um, in a place where they can feel safe,
13:06
um, belonging is important. So,
13:08
um, LGBTQTI community, indigenous
13:11
community, African American community. I mean, you could just
13:14
go down a line. But a place where
13:16
individuals can come and
13:19
not only learn, but
13:22
call it home. A place where they can truly belong.
13:26
So really sort of, um, helping to
13:28
unpack that idea of belonging more, I think is
13:31
important. So building to building, obviously is important
13:34
and is critical. But I think the real
13:37
work, um, that I'm hoping where
13:40
I can, um, build off of what has already taken
13:43
place is really helping us to unpack that idea of
13:45
belonging and why it's important not
13:48
just for students, but for the church as a whole.
13:51
Um, and that space becomes a place of
13:54
belonging for, um, individuals to,
13:58
uh, come and feel like in the
14:00
midst of sometimes what can feel like,
14:03
um, spaces that
14:07
aren't safe, they can find that place
14:09
where they can have voice, be at the table
14:12
and truly belong. And the other I sort of
14:15
alluded to earlier, I think it's critically important that
14:19
we really help not only,
14:22
um, prepare students for rural ministry,
14:24
but also with those who are already doing rural
14:27
ministry, really help them to
14:30
feel that the work they're doing not only
14:33
is essential because it is, but give
14:36
them the resources to really do it. Well,
14:39
I think, um, because
14:42
within mainline, which disciples is there's
14:45
been this overall decline. Um, the goal
14:48
is how do we become sort of larger and how do
14:51
we create larger churches? The
14:53
reality is what we have to do, not
14:56
that we don't want larger churches. Yeah, I'm not
14:59
saying that. But we have to think about vitality,
15:02
particularly of our rural and
15:05
small congregation. The vitality doesn't
15:08
necessarily mean large. It means how do we make
15:11
sure that we're impacting the community and that we're
15:14
vital to the work that needs to be done. And I
15:17
think we can make a real difference. Um,
15:19
and that area, particularly given
15:22
our context, that very
15:25
rural and even the surrounding states around us, of
15:28
Kansas, Missouri, Arkansas, Southern
15:30
Colorado. Yeah, all very rural areas, that
15:36
work will be critically important.
15:38
>> Loren: Well, I think it's so great. I think both those points you
15:40
highlighted, I mean, I've been
15:43
fascinated late with this how certainly you
15:46
probably studied this in your work at the belonging.
15:49
How that model has flipped of like Belong.
15:52
>> Doug Powe: Uh, yeah, yeah. Believes. Yes.
15:54
>> Loren: Believe, behave, Belong.
15:56
>> Doug Powe: That's right. And belonging now is what is critical.
15:59
Yeah, yes, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. That is
16:02
absolutely true.
16:04
Um, and it, it
16:07
goes um, and, and I'm forgetting her name.
16:09
Diane Butler Bass. Diane Butler Bass, yes. Is the one
16:12
who sort um of initiated that work. And, and
16:16
in the work she talks about, belonging
16:19
is sort of. Particularly for newer
16:22
generations, believing is not where they start,
16:25
it's belonging. And if they
16:27
belong they may work their
16:30
way to believing. Um, and I think that's
16:33
absolutely true. And the model we're sort
16:36
of building is that we really want to help people belong. And in
16:39
belonging, hopefully you will find your
16:42
space of moving into the believing
16:44
aspect.
16:45
>> Loren: And I just got to give a shout out to the idea, the
16:48
Bedford House again which cracks with this
16:50
belonging because I remember when I was a student coming down
16:53
for module week long classes and I
16:56
was fortunate in most instances where I found something
16:59
to stay with but you know,
17:02
having that opportunity to rub shoulders with
17:05
fellow students, you know, there's just such
17:08
a important step I felt like
17:10
in my journey fulfilling
17:13
belonging and connectedness and all those
17:16
things. So I'm just so glad to see it.
17:18
>> Doug Powe: Well, and it's an opportunity
17:21
also um, in
17:24
terms of learning, of bringing
17:27
diverse people together. I mean part
17:30
of belonging again as like I say it's easy
17:33
to sort of talk about it, but even within
17:36
underrepresented communities when you are in the
17:39
same space and then you start sort of
17:42
negotiating things that
17:45
those also could be challenging conversations. So it's not just
17:48
majority sort of versus
17:50
underrepresented, um, using versus
17:53
loosely but it's even in underrepresented
17:56
like how do we belong together
17:59
and how do we understand and
18:02
work towards common goals together. So,
18:04
so I think uh, for me it's exciting that there's going to be those
18:07
opportunities like you say, where students will
18:10
get an opportunity to sort of
18:14
um, learn um, and community
18:17
together of this is a lot more challenging
18:19
than I thought to actually create space,
18:23
you know, because some of the assumptions I may have had
18:26
now are actually getting tested in ways I didn't expect them
18:29
to get tested so good.
18:30
>> Loren: You know, societally we are such.
18:33
We can be so filtered into our bubbles and into our
18:36
spaces. So any opportunity for that
18:38
third space or intimate mingling is so good.
18:41
I want to ask you about your work with Lewis center
18:45
and even if you want to extend it more broadly
18:48
from the United Methodist Church, I Mean
18:51
I don't know if you felt this way in the United Methodist Church, but I feel like
18:54
in Disciples world
18:58
denominations for a good reason can be very insular.
19:01
I'm curious like what do you think about uh, what are some
19:04
of your leanings from your time at Lewis center could be
19:07
applicable to Phillips or perhaps to the denomination, the
19:10
Disciples at large?
19:11
>> Doug Powe: Yeah, I'll look at it from sort
19:14
of the Lewis Center. Um,
19:17
one of the things that attracted Peter Phillips
19:19
um, is the center for Administrative Lay Trading
19:22
cmlt um, and it's
19:25
not trying to make cmlt,
19:29
uh carbon copy of the Lewis center. But CMLT
19:32
is really unique um, I think within the
19:35
Disciples community for the work that it's doing
19:38
and its offerings of offering
19:41
um, an avenue for
19:44
those who don't get an mdiv,
19:46
um to still become pastors
19:49
with a non uh degree plan. And
19:52
I understand that. I think Lexington does it for
19:55
um, those who are now Latino, Hispanic community
19:58
um, and others. But um,
20:01
more broadly CMLT
20:03
is sort of unique in sort of the sort of non
20:06
degree class offerings. I think
20:09
there's a tremendous opportunity
20:12
learning from the Lewis center to sort of expand those
20:14
opportunities um,
20:17
and to build up on what has already taken
20:20
place. Because if you think about
20:23
more and more people in the future becoming bi vocational
20:27
that they're not going to probably have the
20:30
opportunity in some cases to do
20:32
degree offerings. So CMLT is
20:35
going to be the place where they're going to be able to connect to
20:38
theological education. Um, so my work at
20:41
the Lewis Center I think is going to be helpful as I work
20:44
with our director there, uh, Leslie
20:47
Lesure and thinking about what are the opportunities
20:49
that make sense. Yeah, um, certainly within a
20:52
disciple context where we can expand
20:55
um, and not only connect with disciples but more broadly with
20:58
others where it makes sense um, to
21:01
offer things that are going to be helpful to
21:04
those who may be interested in theological education but don't want
21:07
to do a degree program. Those who are bi vocational
21:10
that just can't
21:13
have the time to do the sort of even
21:16
sort of um, asynchronous route for
21:20
um degree theological education
21:22
and then lay training. I mean what are the
21:25
opportunities for lay who may be interested
21:28
in you know I want to do just this
21:31
one thing but seminaries
21:34
often don't offer this right sort of one thing or if
21:37
it's in class it's at a time when I
21:39
can't do it because I have to work. So CMLT
21:42
is going to be the perfect space to be able to make those sort
21:45
of one off offerings For a thing. So. So I. I
21:48
really think, um, at the Lewis center, it's going to
21:51
be helpful in working,
21:53
um, with Leslie and thinking about
21:56
what are those places that we can
21:59
really build out some of the offerings that
22:02
will be wonderful and making that a huge
22:04
success as we move forward.
22:06
>> Loren: I'm really excited to hear that. And
22:08
as I learn more about ascending for
22:11
ministry. Late training. Because this was a conversation I
22:14
had recently in the past podcast guests.
22:17
We talked about how these stackable.
22:20
>> Doug Powe: Yeah.
22:21
>> Loren: Certificates or that kind of model of like, someone
22:23
might. I mean, gosh, you know, I remember
22:26
2009, when I started my seminar journey. Like, it
22:29
was such a. Such a
22:32
big thing to bite off. And I remember
22:35
that, like, that first semester.
22:37
>> Doug Powe: Yeah.
22:37
>> Loren: My wife was like, lauren, this is not. You
22:40
can't chew all this.
22:41
>> Doug Powe: Right. Right.
22:42
>> Loren: He did not have kids yet. And I remember that second
22:45
semester, I cut down my class load until
22:48
I could kind of find an equilibrium.
22:51
But I'm sure you know this better
22:54
than I do. Like, there's people who don't make it from that first year, that second
22:57
year because it is too much to chew off.
23:00
And then when you think about the complications of student loans and
23:03
financials, that's right. To me, it's just like, we have
23:06
so much more sense and it's such an easier
23:08
sell to a student and their families. Like, hey, we're
23:11
going to start with like a.
23:15
I don't know what, uh, works with the terms
23:18
three months, six months or something. I like bite
23:21
size. Chewable, to use save a
23:24
metaphor.
23:24
>> Doug Powe: Yeah.
23:26
>> Loren: I'm thrilled to hear it and I'm thrilled. Like, it just.
23:29
To me, it makes so much sense to think about, like, the. The
23:31
infrastructure that a place like Philips
23:34
has to serve lay leaders in
23:37
churches. I'm thrilled to see what comes of
23:40
it.
23:40
>> Doug Powe: Yeah. Well, thank you. Yeah. But I'm really excited about that
23:43
work.
23:44
>> Loren: Yeah.
23:44
I want to ask, since we're kind of on this broad
23:47
topic of theological education. Uh,
23:49
um, I mean, actually kind of talked around
23:52
it already. Like, are there any other thoughts?
23:55
Again, past conversation I had on the podcast
23:58
was kind of like, it seemed like in some instances,
24:01
like, the value of it
24:04
m. Divorce or even theological education
24:07
writ large within some Christian context is kind of
24:10
declining. I mean, you're in the market
24:13
of theological education. Uh, what are your
24:16
thoughts on continuing to value
24:18
theological education within church or
24:22
Protestantism at large?
24:23
>> Doug Powe: Yeah, I think,
24:24
um,
24:27
it's not the value. Is it declining?
24:31
The. The challenge is that
24:34
you have a perfect storm where
24:37
mainline denominations are declining.
24:39
>> Loren: Yeah.
24:40
>> Doug Powe: And the Reality of mainline denominations
24:43
declining is that
24:47
you have the need for less full
24:49
time pastors. Right.
24:52
Um, so it's not that they don't value
24:55
sort of, particularly in this case the Master
24:58
Divinity is that where
25:01
are you going to put them? Yeah, right. So, so that,
25:03
that's the, the sort of struggle,
25:06
um, and all
25:08
seminaries, particularly mainline are going to have to
25:11
deal with that, that challenge of
25:15
that likely they're going to be less
25:18
Master Divinity students because
25:21
literally the place
25:23
that supports us, there isn't a home
25:27
for those students.
25:29
Um, given the current
25:31
circumstance that there's been
25:34
decline each year. And again this is where
25:37
I think uh, the center for Administrative Lay training is so
25:39
valuable that what's going to have to happen is you're going to have to
25:42
have sort of different pathways to help
25:45
educate students. The Master of Divinity
25:48
is still going to be critically important. Um,
25:51
it's just not going to be the only way that
25:54
you educate students that you're going to have to
25:57
have available something similar
26:00
to what we have in the uh, center for Ministry and Lay
26:03
Training, um, moving forward. Because
26:06
people are still going to go into ministry,
26:09
um, and the Disciples,
26:12
Methodists, Presbyterian, whatever, are still going to have people
26:15
in ministry. It's just that they're going to have alternative
26:18
pathways for how individuals get there. And the question
26:21
is how do you educate those people?
26:25
And thinking about that now just so you're
26:28
prepared to have the alternative pathway to educate them I think
26:31
is going to be critically important. So
26:34
the difference I think is going to be
26:37
before pretty much
26:40
there was sort of one major pathway to get
26:43
there. Um, now you're going to have more than that one
26:46
major pathway to get there. Um,
26:48
just because even though people may
26:51
want the Master of Divinity
26:54
degree, um, the reality
26:58
is that it's going to be tougher and tougher to place
27:01
individuals with a Master of Divinity degree because there just aren't going to
27:04
be enough congregations that can support
27:08
sort of um, the full time package
27:11
needed to do so.
27:12
>> Loren: I should ask about this even if there's kind
27:15
of getting the weeds a little bit. But it's something that I've been curious about.
27:18
Folks have had conversations certainly like
27:21
whether the M M Div itself should be reimagined as
27:24
more like a, like an MBA type degree.
27:27
Uh, do you have any thoughts around that, whether like the end Div
27:30
itself needs to be examined?
27:32
>> Doug Powe: Um, I think that the M.
27:34
Div certainly
27:38
has to
27:39
um,
27:42
considerably be adapted. I'm not.
27:45
Ah, and the tricky piece is, and this is
27:48
what makes it a unique Degree in some ways is
27:51
that I think that it's critical to
27:54
get that theological base that the M. Um Div.
27:56
Provides. Because, I mean, you're helping people
27:59
to be formed in the sink theologically. Yeah.
28:02
>> Loren: And that.
28:03
>> Doug Powe: That is.
28:03
>> Loren: I remember that from Phillips.
28:05
>> Doug Powe: Yeah. I mean, that's just critically important. And I. And
28:08
um. It's frustrating when people say,
28:11
you know, well, they didn't teach me that in seminary. What
28:14
I want to say is. No, what we taught you is how to think
28:17
theologically so you could figure this stuff out.
28:19
>> Loren: Good.
28:20
>> Doug Powe: Right. You know, so. So I mean, so I would have say that.
28:23
But I do think. And this again
28:25
for me is where something like the center for Ministry and LA
28:28
Training comes in is how do we supplement that
28:31
nowadays to give individuals.
28:33
Mhm. Those other components of things that you
28:36
would need. Because you've got to be more
28:39
innovative, um, in the church today.
28:42
You've got to have these other skills in the church that are
28:45
critically important in terms of training. So
28:47
it's not an either or for me. It's
28:50
like that sort of
28:53
traditional M. Div. Is still
28:56
critically important. But then how do we
28:59
marry that with some of these
29:02
critical pieces of financial
29:04
stewardship, innovative thinking?
29:07
I mean, those things that would help, um,
29:10
you know, students who are going to go in ministry
29:12
to really succeed. So sort of a. Both and
29:15
approach for me of what we need to do.
29:17
>> Loren: And certainly I think about like, for better
29:20
or worse, the. The economy
29:24
is very much of like you.
29:26
>> Doug Powe: You.
29:26
>> Loren: No one is like just getting a degree and then like working 30
29:29
years. Like they're like, uh. They recognize, like, I have to
29:32
keep certifying and doing this programming
29:35
and education. So I think it. I think that
29:38
makes sense.
29:39
I want to ask too, before we would. Before we finish
29:42
up, like you mentioned, decline several times
29:44
in this conversation, like this is something
29:47
you're familiar with in the United Methodist Church.
29:50
Certainly disciples are not immune. And you know, let's be
29:53
frank. This is a conversation that's not.
29:57
I don't think nearly any
29:59
branch or sector tradition within American
30:02
Christianity is immune from.
30:06
What do you think is the role, the
30:08
responsibility of institutions like
30:11
Phillips to help?
30:15
I mean, obviously you can't. You can't do. You can't.
30:18
You can't change the entire system. You got to trust the
30:21
spirit to bring revival and
30:24
renewal. But what do you think, uh, how Phillips can be a part of that?
30:27
>> Doug Powe: I suppose I think a couple of things I
30:30
think it's important to remember,
30:33
um, congregations
30:35
play a critical role, um,
30:38
in calling traditionally.
30:42
Today, not only is the congregation that
30:45
plays a critical role. But people,
30:48
particularly young people, have
30:51
again alternative pathways in the
30:54
ministry. And one of those, um, is sort of, uh,
30:57
community engagement. Social justice would be another
30:59
one. Where our institutions like
31:02
us can play a role is those
31:05
individuals may not be as connected to the church.
31:08
So in the work we do in
31:12
sort of connecting with students who in
31:15
undergrad may have done something
31:17
within the uh, social justice
31:20
arena, who come to seminary and now
31:22
they're receiving the theological training, it
31:25
may, you know, open up a calling
31:28
to say, hey, I was thinking about nonprofit,
31:31
but now I can see where
31:34
I'm also interested, um, in the church to go along
31:37
with that. So I think the role we play is
31:40
we don't have as much influence sort of in the
31:42
congregational aspect. I mean there's some, but not as
31:45
much, um, because of course my hope is
31:49
Phillips faculty are wonderful at. They're out preaching and teaching
31:52
in congregations, which helps,
31:54
um, to people hearing,
31:57
saying, yeah, I do have that calling, but I do think we
31:59
can sort of expand sort
32:02
of um, those individuals who probably are thinking,
32:05
I want nothing to do with sort of this to say,
32:08
you know what? Now that I've sort of entered into it
32:11
through this particular pathway, I have
32:14
more interest maybe in what that may
32:17
mean ultimately for the type of work I wouldn't do. So
32:21
I think that's going to be, um, not only for
32:23
Phillips, but for theological education as a whole.
32:26
A growing place where you're going to see people
32:29
who, just because the landscape has
32:32
changed, come to theological education
32:35
not necessarily through the church, but through some of these
32:38
other um, uh, pathways like social justice.
32:41
>> Loren: Well, that's helpful to think about because I think about like I grew up independent
32:44
Baptist.
32:44
>> Doug Powe: Yes. Yeah.
32:45
>> Loren: With not quite. There wasn't quite the.
32:48
The academia, uh, of. Yeah, you go to seminary. It
32:51
was like a Bible college.
32:52
>> Doug Powe: Yeah.
32:53
>> Loren: And only the select nerds like really stayed on to go to
32:56
graduate school or seminary. But there was a kind
32:59
of transition out of high school, you
33:01
know, high school. And they feel called. You go to Bible college
33:04
or minister college.
33:09
That's why I was so I sort of wondered like, what is that
33:12
pathway for. For younger scenes.
33:15
And you're suggesting, if I'm hearing right, like it's really going to be
33:18
these non traditional folks.
33:21
>> Doug Powe: Yeah, I think so. I think you're going to see,
33:25
um, just given the way
33:28
they're being trained, um, and sort of
33:31
community engagement efforts which
33:35
strongly connected often to sort of social justice than
33:38
in actual when they go to college or universities
33:41
doing social justice degrees or something. Related to
33:44
that, that that's a pathway. And many
33:47
of these students aren't in a church.
33:50
Yeah. Um, or loosely connected to a
33:52
church, but real interest in making
33:55
a difference in the world. Um, so
33:58
that's where I see institutions being able
34:01
to sort of have an impact of how do we connect with those
34:04
students? Um, at Philips, we offer a
34:07
Master of Art in Social Justice. Um,
34:09
so that taking that and saying
34:12
I can either go into nonprofit work or like I say, or it's
34:15
like, oh, I didn't realize. You know, I
34:19
thought about this really narrowly, but now my mind's been brought
34:22
and so I can see more opportunities,
34:24
um, to maybe do something more directly related
34:27
to ministry than I would initially have thought.
34:29
>> Loren: I mean, I suppose it tracks with that whole
34:32
belong behavior.
34:34
>> Doug Powe: Believe m. Yeah, absolutely.
34:39
>> Loren: We're obviously in a time of great disruption, I suppose.
34:42
And, uh, what do you think? Let me
34:44
ask these two closing questions. What do you think history
34:47
will remember for this time? And then I suppose
34:50
after that I'll ask the other. What do you hope for the future of
34:53
Christianity? So let's start with what do you think history will
34:56
remember from this time?
34:58
>> Doug Powe: It's an interesting question because, I mean,
35:01
there's, um, sort of, if you think about
35:04
the United States context and
35:07
sort of the shrinking, particularly,
35:10
uh, of, um, diversity,
35:13
um, equity and inclusion that has taken
35:16
place, um, depending on
35:21
how long this happens and where this heads, I
35:23
think history is going to look back and say
35:26
that it's unfortunate that
35:29
that's the pathway we went down of
35:32
trying to separate people and divide them instead of thinking of
35:35
ways that we could really
35:38
become a better nation together. Um,
35:42
so, um, I think within
35:45
this context that's something that definitely,
35:48
um, 25, 30 years from now,
35:51
as people look back and say, just depending on where this
35:53
heads, um, could be remembered. I hope that's not
35:56
the case. I hope I'm wrong in that
35:59
we're remembered for something different. Um, but that could be
36:02
the case. Uh, my hope for the future
36:05
relates to that, is that
36:09
we can actually
36:11
sort of help people see a different vision
36:15
of how we can be together. I mean, to me that is,
36:18
um, really at the heart
36:20
of who we should be as Christians. How do we help
36:23
people to live into. I, uh, use the language of the
36:26
kingdom where they can see that it
36:29
doesn't have to be this separation, that
36:32
it doesn't mean we have to be pitted against one another,
36:35
that there's actually a way for us to live
36:37
together. Um, and it doesn't mean we
36:40
won't disagree. And that things are going to be perfect. But,
36:43
um, it's not that because
36:47
I am succeeding, that means
36:50
you have to fail or that you're succeeding. That I have to fail.
36:52
>> Loren: Some games.
36:53
>> Doug Powe: That's right. Um, so my hope is
36:56
that there's a way to actually
36:59
create a vision to help people to
37:01
live into that in ways that we have not been able to do
37:04
to this point.
37:05
>> Loren: Well, and this is something that I've always found so compelling
37:08
about the disciples tradition.
37:11
I think you would argue, if I understand Methodism enough, that
37:14
there's some similarities within the Methodist tradition. But
37:18
around the table, all are welcome
37:21
and all gather, despite our differences,
37:24
theology and politics and what have you.
37:27
We gather together in Christ's name.
37:30
>> Doug Powe: Yeah, I mean disciples, um, similar to
37:33
Methodist. I'm going to use communion. Invite everyone to communion.
37:35
Like there's, you know, you
37:38
don't get to say, well, no, you don't get to come, or. That's
37:41
right. Right. So. So thinking about
37:44
that sort of image. Or we invite everyone to participate
37:47
in communion who, you know,
37:50
feels and really, um, wants to do so.
37:53
How do we create such a vision, um, in other
37:55
places where we all come together, uh,
37:58
and communion for the work we're doing.
38:00
>> Loren: Well, I really appreciate your time, really appreciate the conversation,
38:05
really, uh, encourage folks, check out Philips and the work they're doing.
38:08
And, uh, I'm really excited about, uh,
38:10
the Future Phillips. And appreciate your service.
38:14
Seminary.
38:14
>> Doug Powe: Thank you. I appreciate you having me.
38:16
>> Loren: We, uh, always leave folks with a word of peace. So may God's peace be with you.
38:19
>> Doug Powe: Also with you.
38:27
>> Loren Richmond: Thanks for joining us on the Future Christian Podcast. The
38:30
Future Christian Podcast is produced by Resonate Media.
38:34
We love to hear from our listeners with questions, comments
38:36
and ideas for future episodes. Visit
38:39
our website@future-christian.com
38:42
and find the Connect with Us form at the bottom of
38:45
the page to get in touch with Martha or Loren.
38:48
But before you go, do us a favor. Subscribe to
38:51
the podcast to leave a review. It really helps us get
38:54
this out to more people. Thanks and go in
38:56
peace.