Latest / Queer 101 with Peppermint / When Anti-Trans Rhetoric Boomerangs: Jenner, Chappelle & the Laws They Fueled

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When Anti-Trans Rhetoric Boomerangs: Jenner, Chappelle & the Laws They Fueled · Queer 101 with Peppermint

• 0:03
  SPEAKER_00: Hey y'all, welcome to Queer 101.
• 0:06
  SPEAKER_05: I'm Peppermint and I'm Do the Historian.
• 0:09
  SPEAKER_05: And we're here to bring you all things queer history that you didn't learn in school.
• 0:14
  SPEAKER_00: This is a podcast where we dive deep into queer culture, books, and a queer experience, past, present, and future.
• 0:22
  SPEAKER_00: From the history that shaped us to the culture that keeps us thriving, we have got it all covered.
• 0:27
  SPEAKER_05: Grab a seat and let's shine a light on queer history.
• 0:30
  SPEAKER_05: Because these stories demand to be heard and must be celebrated.
• 0:34
  SPEAKER_00: Welcome to Queer 101.
• 0:36
  SPEAKER_00: Class is now in action.
• 0:40
  SPEAKER_01: Hey y'all, welcome back to Queer 101, the podcast where we talk about any and everything under the sun, including queer art, queer culture, queer literature, and whatever the hell we want, even queer news.
• 0:52
  SPEAKER_01: I'm Peppermint.
• 0:54
  SPEAKER_04: And I'm Hugh Ryan, aka Hugh the Historian.
• 0:58
  SPEAKER_01: That's right.
• 0:59
  SPEAKER_01: And today, honey, we are, we're just kind of gonna go off the cuff.
• 1:03
  SPEAKER_01: We had something else planned for you, but we were going through the news as one does.
• 1:08
  SPEAKER_01: You just go through your you wake up and you look at your phone and the headlines hit you in the face.
• 1:13
  SPEAKER_05: Mm-hmm.
• 1:13
  SPEAKER_05: As I said, like I wouldn't doom scroll, but all this doom is already in my scroll.
• 1:18
  SPEAKER_05: It's not my fault.
• 1:19
  SPEAKER_05: There's no avoiding it.
• 1:21
  SPEAKER_01: It basically gets delivered to your door.
• 1:24
  unknown: Yeah.
• 1:24
  SPEAKER_05: Somebody called uh the my iPhone the flashlight that yells bad news at me.
• 1:29
  SPEAKER_05: And I was like, yeah, that's exactly what it is.
• 1:31
  SPEAKER_05: That's that is the experience of having a fucking phone these days.
• 1:35
  SPEAKER_05: But you know, we were talking a couple weeks ago about passports and about what is the Trump administration is doing right now to trans people and passports.
• 1:45
  SPEAKER_05: And right before we hopped on, you were saying something about a new interview that Caitlin Jenner just gave.
• 1:51
  SPEAKER_05: Can you like tell our readers about this?
• 1:54
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I mean, Caitlin Jenner, you know, first of all, I don't know exactly why Caitlin Jenner it I can't let me back up.
• 2:01
  SPEAKER_01: Caitlin Jenner's in the news.
• 2:05
  SPEAKER_01: Heaven Sebetsy, I don't know why.
• 2:08
  SPEAKER_01: Uh she's in the news.
• 2:09
  SPEAKER_01: She hit somebody else.
• 2:10
  SPEAKER_01: Giving interviews.
• 2:11
  SPEAKER_01: Hello.
• 2:12
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, yeah, there's nothing relevant that I can think of, but uh, every few months, she'll like recirculate with nothing to say.
• 2:19
  SPEAKER_01: And what was really revealing this time around was she basically came on to Tommy Laren's show on Fox.
• 2:25
  SPEAKER_01: I I think it was on Fox.
• 2:27
  SPEAKER_01: Uh this is already like a nightmare blunt rotation.
• 2:30
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 2:31
  SPEAKER_01: Uh to basically complain about the issues, uh, the to complain about to show an awareness of the impact of the Trump policies and the and the current sort of right-wing ship that is very anti-trans, uh, this anti-trans add anti-trans and LGBTQ attitude, right-wing attitude, uh, conservative attitude on the community.
• 2:55
  SPEAKER_01: And talking about the impact of those things uh and disclosing that she has experienced some of that impact.
• 3:02
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, but all in all, it's all right.
• 3:05
  SPEAKER_01: Uh I wish that we could play a clip.
• 3:08
  SPEAKER_01: Oh I know, I know.
• 3:10
  SPEAKER_01: I really want to hear it.
• 3:11
  SPEAKER_01: Just in case, if you're able to watch the clip, you should go watch it um afterwards.
• 3:16
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, not to give them any more views, but if we were able to show it here, um, this is where we would show it.
• 3:22
  SPEAKER_01: Um and, you know, I I listen, I try my best to really just refrain from attacking individuals or like really mentioning individuals and picking on them separately, because you know, people like that are really only able to do what they do as a part of a larger system, a part of a larger sort of project.
• 3:45
  SPEAKER_01: And it's she's insignificant.
• 3:47
  SPEAKER_01: She's she's insignificant, meaning if she weren't here, they would have found somebody else to do it.
• 3:53
  SPEAKER_01: So, like, I I know that that's true, but uh, you know, I do find it, it's obviously hypocritical.
• 4:01
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and there's been a huge like wave of hip of hypocrisy lately from Caitlin Jenner, who was who her job in the sort of grand scheme of things is to uh be an a less attackable trans voice that uh is supportive of the Trump policies, specifically the trans sports bands, uh any of those, but on a wider scale, anything that's um you know, anything that t attacks trans women, sh it's her job to to support those things with and if they're if we were on a battlefield and we were, you know, throwing nerf balls, because I'm trying to be nonviolent, she would have protection from some of those nerf balls being throwing.
• 4:52
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 4:53
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 4:54
  SPEAKER_01: Um and and then the same thing with Dave Chappelle, who I don't even like speaking his name in life, let alone in public or on camera.
• 5:02
  SPEAKER_01: But um, it was really interesting that switching from Caitlin Jenner to switching to Dave Chappelle to giving an interview on NPR from a local NPR station that he just purchased, uh, which must be why they decided to talk to him.
• 5:13
  SPEAKER_01: Because why are we talking to Dave Chappelle right now?
• 5:16
  SPEAKER_01: Um and he was there uh and I only saw Sympathy interview, but the interview, uh, the clip was a moment of him basically talking about how he thinks the right-wing um rhetoric and conversation, especially in this case, particular in particular in relation to trans people, has gone too far right.
• 5:36
  SPEAKER_01: And so it's wild that both of them are saying, Oh, it's gone too far right, and it's too much.
• 5:41
  SPEAKER_05: It's hilarious.
• 5:42
  SPEAKER_05: I saw that too, and you said something about that, you know, they had weaponized his jokes, and that was like, what did they do that was any different?
• 5:49
  SPEAKER_05: Your jokes was already a weapon, you know, like it's it's I wonder, and I'm curious what you think.
• 5:54
  SPEAKER_05: Like, do you think this is trying to protect themselves because they think that the right is falling apart a little bit?
• 6:02
  SPEAKER_05: Do you think this is genuine regret, or do you think this is just another way of saying, like, oh nope, that's not what we meant, but we're gonna continue on exactly as usual?
• 6:10
  SPEAKER_05: Like, is this, are we seeing a change in some way, or is this just more the same?
• 6:15
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, all of the above.
• 6:17
  SPEAKER_01: Like, I do think that there are some, I mean, listen, it is, it's it we're not just hallucinating with saying that we are in wild times and that that things are things that would have seemed acceptable, things that would have seemed unacceptable five, 10 years ago are just everyday occurrences today with regards to political violence, political discourse, political theater, all of this stuff as it relates to politics and then sort of like going into legislation and policy and just all those different things, even beyond politics.
• 6:50
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and a lot of that, you know, I remember people were saying that the rhetoric of candidate Donald Trump before becoming president the first time was so uncouth and so uh lacking in decorum that it was going to push the political conversation.
• 7:05
  SPEAKER_01: And that has definitely happened because there are people who are like, you know, what?
• 7:10
  SPEAKER_01: So what?
• 7:11
  SPEAKER_01: I'm a Nazi, and that's that.
• 7:14
  SPEAKER_05: And there was a moment eight years ago where people thought, oh, grabbing by the pussy might dislodge his entire campaign.
• 7:20
  SPEAKER_05: And now he says something like that every single day, and so does everyone else.
• 7:24
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, it's just a par for the course.
• 7:26
  SPEAKER_01: And and so it it is so we're not like out of our minds to take note and and recognize and acknowledge that things have gone so extreme and so wild.
• 7:38
  SPEAKER_01: And even people uh who are supporters of this administration have have said very selectively that political discourse has gotten crazy.
• 7:47
  SPEAKER_01: Of course, they only acknowledge like left-wing political discourse, they don't acknowledge anything having to do with right-wing political discourse.
• 7:55
  SPEAKER_01: Like he said, he could literally shoot somebody on Fifth Avenue and they would still support him with absolutely no criticism or of anything.
• 8:03
  SPEAKER_01: There's no critical thinking, there's no analysis to be done.
• 8:07
  SPEAKER_01: It's just, you know, I mean, the most we would probably get is oh, it's some left-wing person's fault if Trump shot somebody on the Fifth Avenue.
• 8:14
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 8:14
  SPEAKER_01: As we saw with with the uh, you know, the horrible uh murders uh by ICE uh of um Rachel Corps.
• 8:26
  SPEAKER_01: Alex Pready and Rachel Cory.
• 8:27
  SPEAKER_01: Alex Pready and Rachel Good.
• 8:29
  SPEAKER_01: Um and you know, it's so it's it is I do think, but I do think that these folks are, yes, jumping sh- I think it's all the above.
• 8:38
  SPEAKER_01: There's definitely people who have valid criticisms of this administration and or their policies, people like Marjorie Taylor Green, um, who I don't have any alignment with at all.
• 8:48
  SPEAKER_01: But like, you know, I do, you know, what some of what she's saying is is true.
• 8:53
  SPEAKER_01: It's true uh in terms of criticizing.
• 9:00
  SPEAKER_05: And the church on so many things.
• 9:02
  SPEAKER_01: And I will remain on the other side of that.
• 9:04
  SPEAKER_05: Yeah, yeah, but they're pushing about immigrants, about poverty, about war, about death.
• 9:10
  SPEAKER_05: I mean, those are sort of things where like I, you know, left the church a long time ago, but I was raised very deeply in the Catholic Church, going multiple times a week.
• 9:17
  SPEAKER_05: I was confirmed, I did all the steps, and that is the core.
• 9:20
  SPEAKER_05: And like, if like when JD Vance tries to call out the Pope and be like, I don't know if you know theology, it makes me think like maybe, maybe this will push the Catholic Church slightly in a direction towards opposing more of what Trump is doing, not around gender and sexuality, but around war and poverty and immigration.
• 9:39
  SPEAKER_05: I I I have hope there, slight hope, but I don't know.
• 9:42
  SPEAKER_05: I really don't know whether this is gonna be just the Pope making a couple of statements and then nothing happens or what.
• 9:48
  SPEAKER_05: But it's interesting to see this happening now.
• 9:51
  SPEAKER_01: It is interesting to see it, but it was predictable.
• 9:52
  SPEAKER_01: I knew that it would be because it's it's you know, people who are of low moral character, I'm not talking about the Pope specifically, but I'm just saying people who are of low moral character have no problem supporting an administration like this.
• 10:02
  SPEAKER_01: And then the one would no surprise that they would jump ship when it when it feels like it's not polit politically expedient or beneficial to them personally anymore.
• 10:12
  SPEAKER_01: And so we know that people who have supported administrations like this in the past, and then when I say in the past, I mean in the past 10 years, um, who have it supported administrations like this are very quick to say, you know what, I don't really care about homeless people because I don't want to see them on my porch.
• 10:30
  SPEAKER_01: I don't really care about LGBT people because I don't want them to everything is just about what it is for them.
• 10:35
  SPEAKER_01: And when we ask them, well, would you care to help group people?
• 10:38
  SPEAKER_01: Would you care to do something that's more empathetic to, oh, they're actually saying, oh, empathy is the problem with our country.
• 10:46
  SPEAKER_01: Like, you know, people in his administration are saying that.
• 10:48
  SPEAKER_01: And so, you know, it's now it's no surprise that these people would backstab him if they have the opportunity, especially given the fact that of the few successful times that peep that laws um that sorry that um that court cases have been won against either Trump or his administration or his actions, the pe people who have gone to jail, people who paid the price, people who've actually gone down have been people around him, the people that have been his supporters.
• 11:14
  SPEAKER_01: And so the people that are around him, I think at least know, whoa, you can stay around and get what you're gonna get.
• 11:19
  SPEAKER_01: Hopefully you'll get some money, but you better get out before the chips fall because you will go to jail.
• 11:23
  SPEAKER_01: Like somebody's gonna be held accountable for all this.
• 11:26
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, some people will be able to do that.
• 11:27
  SPEAKER_01: Somebody will be held accountable.
• 11:29
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and so you know, watching all these people jump ship, I'm not surprised.
• 11:33
  SPEAKER_01: But I'm I also have very little, like, I'm like, you know what?
• 11:38
  SPEAKER_01: I don't know what to say because I didn't even want to necessarily discuss or talk about um Caitlin Jenner or Dave Chappelle like at all.
• 11:45
  SPEAKER_01: I I don't want to put any energy out there.
• 11:47
  SPEAKER_01: And to be honest with you, the fact that Dave Chappelle would buy an a radio, an NPR station to and have himself interviewed to talk about how he thinks that things are out of control now is just so wild to me.
• 12:00
  SPEAKER_05: And I'm so in line with all of these billionaires buying newspapers to control their coverage, you know, like making the Washington Post turn their opinion section into a pro-capitalism page.
• 12:10
  SPEAKER_05: You know, it's like the rich understand Elon Musk buying fucking Twitter, right?
• 12:14
  SPEAKER_05: Like there is such this mindset.
• 12:15
  SPEAKER_01: It's town, it's it's even more than that.
• 12:17
  SPEAKER_01: It's tantamount to, you know, Jeff Bezos buying the Washington Post to turn around and say, I think the prices are a little too high.
• 12:24
  unknown: Yeah.
• 12:24
  SPEAKER_01: No, I don't want to hear you saying that prices are too high on your paper that you bought and own to get that interview because you're the one who raised the prices in the first place.
• 12:34
  SPEAKER_01: And so, you know, it is, it is seems to be really, really circular that there's so many people who are sort of jumping ship, and these are the same people that were.
• 12:42
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, it's it's not even that like they contributed to like Caitlin Jenner and people, people like Caitlin Jenner and Dave Chappelle were some of the very first people, the most famous, because they're obviously very famous, and some of the first people to usher in the conversation about anti-transness.
• 12:57
  SPEAKER_01: They were the ones who gave uh Dave Chappelle was one of the top three comics, stand-up comics, who gave permission to the general public to make fun of trans people and using these anti-trans jokes, having all this anti-trans rhetoric, because the conversation back then is should you say these offensive words about trans people?
• 13:14
  SPEAKER_01: People were using words that we now today consider slurs.
• 13:17
  SPEAKER_01: And it was at that cusp, 2016, is when his special, when he started before his special came out, but right after that, there were there were right after the tipping point, there were a lot of people who were saying you shouldn't treat trans people this way, you shouldn't talk about them this way.
• 13:31
  SPEAKER_01: And it was basically, you know, a whole conversation about it.
• 13:35
  SPEAKER_01: It was about bathrooms and transgender genitalia, and and should you be able to use those things.
• 13:40
  SPEAKER_01: And there was a debate, and and that's what ushered in the debate of free speech and cancel culture.
• 13:46
  SPEAKER_01: If you remember, people were talking about there was, I'm sure there were certainly other topics, but trans folks being made fun of by stand-up comics was a huge thing that people in the trans community and their supporters were were protesting about.
• 14:00
  SPEAKER_01: There were boycotts of Netflix, there were all these different things.
• 14:03
  SPEAKER_01: Between 2016 and 2019, there was all these things, walkouts and Caitlin Jenner and um uh Dave Chappelle were at those two were at the center of this.
• 14:15
  SPEAKER_01: And at that time, they were saying, I can say whatever I want, it's free speech.
• 14:19
  SPEAKER_01: How dare you try to cancel me?
• 14:20
  SPEAKER_01: Blah blah kh.
• 14:22
  SPEAKER_01: And and I think there was a move to try to have maybe not so much Caitlin Jenner, because she's not as accountable to, you know, like public discourse as a as a comic would be who needs to pay attention to she doesn't have a working career anymore in that way.
• 14:38
  SPEAKER_05: Yeah.
• 14:39
  SPEAKER_01: Precisely.
• 14:40
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and and so, you know, but there were people who I think tried to call, you know, all the stand-up comics, and it wasn't just Jave Chappelle, it was people like Ricky Gervais who got up on the national stage and was making all these anti-trans jokes back in 2016 on whatever he hosted, the Emmys or whatever he hosted.
• 14:57
  SPEAKER_01: And, you know, people were trying to call these people in, you know, can you please use better language when talking about this?
• 15:03
  SPEAKER_01: And it was a slippery slope that we we said could be a slippery slope.
• 15:06
  SPEAKER_01: We were saying this.
• 15:08
  SPEAKER_01: We were able to draw a correlation between and a connection between anti-trans rhetoric and the anti-trans actions, the violence, the murder rate uh against trans people, most notably trans women of color.
• 15:22
  SPEAKER_01: That's what we were trying to do back then, is saying words do have an impact.
• 15:26
  SPEAKER_01: They do, where you otherwise you wouldn't say them.
• 15:29
  SPEAKER_01: And they rebuffed that.
• 15:30
  SPEAKER_01: They were like, no, no, no, no, no.
• 15:32
  SPEAKER_01: You, you know, it's for you're trying to cancel these.
• 15:36
  SPEAKER_05: Yeah.
• 15:37
  SPEAKER_05: That's that politically correct censors and yep.
• 15:40
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 15:41
  SPEAKER_01: Mm-hmm.
• 15:41
  SPEAKER_01: And we and the entire discourse changed around politically correctness, uh, being a social justice warrior, being woke.
• 15:50
  SPEAKER_01: Like it kind of walked its way from that, from moments like that.
• 15:54
  SPEAKER_05: Yeah.
• 15:55
  SPEAKER_05: Yeah, it's like that, it's gamergate, it's all this stuff where suddenly the right was edgy and trying to be cool and the left was censorious, and they were trying to ruin comedy.
• 16:04
  SPEAKER_05: And yet, you know, talking about how like this opens the window for everything.
• 16:08
  SPEAKER_05: I was just looking at yesterday, two days ago, uh, article about the America First Priority Institute, which are like people who are working with all of Trump's policies, they're big things.
• 16:18
  SPEAKER_05: Oh, wait, hold on.
• 16:19
  SPEAKER_01: Wait, I I know exactly what you're gonna say.
• 16:22
  SPEAKER_01: Let let's walk the let's walk, y'all.
• 16:24
  SPEAKER_01: I want to walk you through step by step by step.
• 16:26
  SPEAKER_01: Bring us that.
• 16:27
  SPEAKER_01: We started in 2016 with all the anti-trans rhetoric, and there wasn't a lot of proof because 10 years, you know, we're we're that was 10 years ago, but we could see where things were going because of other things that were happening.
• 16:39
  SPEAKER_01: Then we ended up getting all of this anti-trans legislation, and a lot of the anti-trans legislation, it it it increased.
• 16:47
  SPEAKER_01: It's it was introduced a lot of times for the first time.
• 16:50
  SPEAKER_01: I think there was like 18 bills and policies that were put forth in 2016.
• 16:55
  SPEAKER_01: And over the past 10 years, that has uh uh multiplied like 10, 24.
• 17:00
  SPEAKER_01: It's really difficult to thousand, it's like by like over a thousand percent.
• 17:05
  SPEAKER_01: And that I'm that's actually like you can calculate that.
• 17:08
  SPEAKER_01: Like literally, if you look at the oh, yeah, literal numbers.
• 17:10
  SPEAKER_01: If you look at over the the over 500 bills in 2024, now it's over 700 bills and policies, many of which have failed.
• 17:19
  SPEAKER_01: That to be honest and be fair, many of which have failed thanks to the very, very, very uh um uh uh dedicated mission of the uh uh civil rights advocates who've argued at the at the court in courthouses all across the country, from local, state, all the way up to the Supreme Court.
• 17:40
  SPEAKER_01: Some of those bills and policies have failed.
• 17:42
  SPEAKER_01: Many of them have passed, which is why there's over 27 states in our 50-state country that have bans on uh sports, trans bans, uh bathroom bans for trans people, uh, and there's six states now of gender-affirming care bans that are 27 states.
• 18:01
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, there's six states now that have revoked the we talked a few weeks ago about Kansas.
• 18:07
  SPEAKER_01: Now there's six states that have revoked the licenses and the birth certificates of trans people.
• 18:13
  SPEAKER_01: And so, like that has shown an increase too.
• 18:15
  SPEAKER_01: And that's only in the past month in 2026, from end of February to April.
• 18:22
  SPEAKER_01: And so we know that one was going to happen.
• 18:24
  SPEAKER_01: So then we also see at the same time all of these people making this right-wing shift.
• 18:30
  SPEAKER_01: And I can't say that I thought that that's what Dave Chappelle and obviously Caitlin Jenner was definitely doing that.
• 18:36
  SPEAKER_01: But you know, the I I just thought that these people were being oddly anti-trans.
• 18:40
  SPEAKER_01: But then we start to see these people like really cozying up to um not only the Trump administration, but like all, you know, just like sort of these right wing, you know, not progressive, uh right-wing conservative.
• 18:54
  SPEAKER_01: Right wing influencers, people talk shows, these, yeah.
• 18:58
  SPEAKER_01: All of those folks were sort of like, you know, um moving and becoming more popular and really taking center stage.
• 19:07
  SPEAKER_01: And so that was back in 20 like 18, 2019, we were starting to see all that happen.
• 19:12
  SPEAKER_01: Obviously, that was a huge help to demonstrate being like elected and re-elected.
• 19:17
  SPEAKER_05: Failed like second string essayists from like local newspapers and science journalists who never got anywhere, like Jesse Single and Katie Herzog, and all of them suddenly shifting all of their reporting to focus on like anti-trans topics.
• 19:31
  SPEAKER_05: It's like they found the grift.
• 19:32
  SPEAKER_05: They found the place where people would pay them for a hateful idea and then they stuck on it, you know.
• 19:36
  SPEAKER_05: And I think I see a little bit of that too with Dave Chappelle.
• 19:39
  SPEAKER_05: I'm sure he had those ideas before, but also it worked.
• 19:42
  SPEAKER_05: Like he got what, what is it, like five Netflix specials after all of that, you know?
• 19:46
  SPEAKER_05: And it's like you just see them finding this grift that absolutely works and and sticking with it and now starting to worry, like, oh, is it gonna damage my reputation a little bit?
• 19:56
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 19:57
  SPEAKER_01: Well, I mean, even beyond that, there's a hundred percent.
• 20:00
  SPEAKER_01: And I don't know that I'm like, I I don't know if it was like a plotted grift that got him Netflix specials because he already signed that deal before he started making these jokes.
• 20:10
  SPEAKER_01: But the it was obviously the jokes were the first Netflix special, we were like, Can you please not be transphobic?
• 20:16
  SPEAKER_01: The second Netflix special, he was more transphobic and doubled down, and we said, Can you stop?
• 20:20
  SPEAKER_01: The third, the fourth.
• 20:21
  SPEAKER_01: And so, like, it was it just kept increasing even within the Netflix specials.
• 20:25
  SPEAKER_01: So it's not even like he had to like perform that in order to get some Netflix specials that he could be like, Okay, I did that.
• 20:31
  SPEAKER_01: Now I can talk about like nature.
• 20:32
  SPEAKER_01: No, these were the anti-trans Netflix specials.
• 20:35
  SPEAKER_01: Like most of the jokes that were not funny in his specials that he doubled down on, and the last one calling himself a turf and saying he agrees with J.K.
• 20:44
  SPEAKER_01: Rowling, most of the, you know, most the the I a more than significant, like probably maybe a third or fourth, although I didn't watch the special, so I have to be fair, but like multiple jokes in a significant portion of these specials, every time has been dedicated to being anti-trans.
• 21:03
  SPEAKER_01: And, you know, after trying to draw empathy and say, look, these could have an impact on the trans community, after these folks doubling down, tripling down, saying, no, no, no, you're trying to cancel me, forget all this, doing news interviews, keeping it going, keeping it alive, having people whip it up, then obviously Trump getting into power, watching all these bills and policies increase.
• 21:26
  SPEAKER_01: And then they start to, these bills and policies are not just like, you know, abstract.
• 21:30
  SPEAKER_01: They're actually why Caitlin Jenner's fucking ass doesn't have a fucking passport.
• 21:35
  SPEAKER_01: They are why, and when we try to make that connection, it's really, really simple because all those attorneys that I told you about, and I had the vi the honor and pleasure, as we talked about before, of going and sitting in some in the Supreme Court more than once, watching these attorneys work very hard to defend and stop bathroom bans, sports bans, passport bans, which there's a Supreme Court case that we're waiting to hear the decision on.
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_01: That's already been argued for trans people having passports.
• 22:02
  SPEAKER_01: This is exactly what Caitlin Jenner is talking about.
• 22:05
  SPEAKER_01: Gender affirming care bans, all of these things are before the Supreme Court.
• 22:08
  SPEAKER_01: And every single time, as laid out in the documentary Heightened Scrutiny, people should go and watch.
• 22:15
  SPEAKER_01: Every single time that these attorneys that are trying to fight for trans rights and LGBT rights at large are in the court, every single time that they're in there, they put forth the scientific information about gender affirming care that says that, you know, uh suicide rates amongst trans people drop when they're able to access gender affirming care, that, you know, uh that depression levels drop when trans people are able to access uh and participate in sports because it's community, it's socialization, all these different things.
• 22:43
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, you know, so on.
• 22:44
  SPEAKER_01: And so obviously, people who want a passport, they want it to be to say what they want it to say.
• 22:50
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, you know, and that the passport situation, if you're uh revoking somebody's um gender marker, changing their information, then it presents a safety issue.
• 23:00
  SPEAKER_01: It prov it presents uh at least a discrepancy when you get up and somebody has to check your documents and see if things are the same and they're not the same, then suddenly that's a problem.
• 23:09
  SPEAKER_01: And so that's what and they they can present court case uh documents in court, evidence in court.
• 23:17
  SPEAKER_01: That's what the attorneys who are trying to protect trans people and save their access to civil rights and save their access to equal rights and constitutional rights.
• 23:27
  SPEAKER_01: That's what the attorneys are doing.
• 23:29
  SPEAKER_01: But the attorneys on the other side, they're presenting evidence, and when they're asked for evidence, they're giving quotes by Caitlin Jenner, quotes by Dave Chappelle, quotes by uh Joe Rogan and Matt Walsh, quotes from uh opinion articles by some of the people that you said.
• 23:44
  SPEAKER_01: Um, right, you know, that's that's what they're given.
• 23:47
  SPEAKER_01: They're not giving scientific information.
• 23:49
  SPEAKER_01: That's their evidence.
• 23:50
  SPEAKER_01: They're not giving anything else.
• 23:52
  SPEAKER_01: And so we can literally see legally and numerically how the all this rhetoric goes into the court system, it's used as an excuse, it turns into law, and then it impacts the people.
• 24:04
  SPEAKER_01: And now people like Caitlin Jenner and Dave Chappelle, I have I have no why why Dave Chappelle suddenly cares about anybody trans, um, are complaining about it's gone too far.
• 24:14
  SPEAKER_01: And the goddamn, if we have to use Caitlin fucking Jenner and Dave Chappelle as a barometer to measure what is um impacting me when I told you six, 10 years ago that this was gonna fuck my life up.
• 24:30
  SPEAKER_01: So I don't want to hear what anybody has to say about with regards to fucking Dave Chappelle, Caitlin Jenner.
• 24:35
  SPEAKER_01: They can suck a dick as far as I'm concerned.
• 24:38
  SPEAKER_01: And to finalize, as you were saying, the and we the clearly the position, the official position of the United States government in relation to trans people and trans issues is very particular at this point.
• 24:57
  SPEAKER_05: I guess that's the the very particular way to say that the right way to put it.
• 25:01
  SPEAKER_05: Well, I think about this.
• 25:03
  SPEAKER_05: You know, those same people who you were talking about, the the journalists, not not so much the Dave Chappelles, but the the Joe Rogans, the Matt Iglesias, the Matt Walsh, maybe not as much.
• 25:12
  SPEAKER_05: But they all are like, oh, no, no, no.
• 25:13
  SPEAKER_05: It's the left, the left came too hard.
• 25:16
  SPEAKER_05: The read, there's this backlash because they've gone too far, done too much.
• 25:19
  SPEAKER_05: The activists are the ones who are making us do this.
• 25:22
  SPEAKER_05: I mean, Ben Ryan went on a whole thread on Twitter about how he started reporting on pediatric gender transition medicine because the activists were so mean about it, you know?
• 25:32
  SPEAKER_05: And so there's not only are they obscuring what is actually happening, they're they're turning what you said exactly around and saying, no, no, no, no, no.
• 25:40
  SPEAKER_05: Those activists were right.
• 25:42
  SPEAKER_05: They caused it to happen.
• 25:43
  SPEAKER_05: Not that they saw what was happening and predicted where it was going to go, but that it's in fact.
• 25:50
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 25:51
  SPEAKER_01: But there's a difference between the impact and intention.
• 25:54
  SPEAKER_01: And there's also a difference between actually having scientific evidence.
• 25:57
  SPEAKER_01: And regardless of whether it was our fault, your fault, my mom's fault, some the Smurfs, whoever's fault it was, you are lying to people when you tell them that doctors are cutting off the genitalia of one-year-old in high school.
• 26:13
  SPEAKER_01: One-year-olds don't go to high school.
• 26:15
  SPEAKER_01: Lunch ladies don't do surgeries.
• 26:17
  SPEAKER_01: That's a lie.
• 26:18
  SPEAKER_01: So I don't care if it's the Smurf's fault, or if it's Janet Jackson's fault, or whose fault it what made you say that, it is a lie.
• 26:25
  SPEAKER_01: And it's not real.
• 26:26
  SPEAKER_01: But now the governors and the lawmakers in every single state are using your quote, which was a lie, to pass these laws that are harming people.
• 26:37
  SPEAKER_01: And now you want to believe Caitlin Jenner?
• 26:41
  SPEAKER_01: And now we told you, don't do this to our passports.
• 26:44
  SPEAKER_05: All of those people, this, I mean, this is what I was saying earlier.
• 26:47
  SPEAKER_05: It's like they're now stepping out there and starting to say, oh, yeah, you know, we pursued things about children and sports because they were low-hanging fruit.
• 26:54
  SPEAKER_05: The actual goal, they're starting to admit, is to stop all transition, to bring about uh what was it you were saying, the Lemken Institute, right?
• 27:02
  SPEAKER_01: Said a transgender genocide.
• 27:04
  SPEAKER_01: Well, before before we give that proof, I remember as an individual saying online and in community with people at meetings, at advocacy groups and organizations and and with GLAN, with ACLU, I was spending a lot of my time and energy talking about this over the past 10 years, telling people that the impact of this is going to be great, that they are when they're trying to stop us from accessing bathrooms, when they're trying to stop us from accessing sports teams, when they're trying to stop us from accessing having proper identification, that this is essentially erasing us from public existence.
• 27:34
  SPEAKER_01: And people were saying, oh, no, no, no, no, no, no, you still exist.
• 27:39
  SPEAKER_01: That's not true.
• 27:40
  SPEAKER_01: And here we can see the, as you just introduced, the Lemken Institute, named after Raphael Lemkin, who coined the term genocide after examining what happened in the Holocaust, the extermination of at least six million Jewish people and then millions of other people additionally.
• 28:00
  SPEAKER_01: Not just Jewish people, a whole bunch of people.
• 28:05
  SPEAKER_01: Disabled people all time were exterminated.
• 28:09
  SPEAKER_01: But before that, there were several policies that put it that were put into place that limited access to identification, limited access to uh holding uh jobs and and you know professional uh exclusions, uh controlled controlled movement, uh putting people having to use a card or a thing, a pass, whatever.
• 28:32
  SPEAKER_01: Uh also, you know, um book bannings and burnings, uh book bans which turned into burnings essentially.
• 28:40
  SPEAKER_01: Um the um reported, and I don't have that much information, thus, uh experimentation at the medical, like scientific medical kind of extra experimentation.
• 28:50
  SPEAKER_01: But, you know, all those things aside, this a concerted effort at every single stage to change how people how this how these groups of people were positioned in society.
• 29:04
  SPEAKER_01: At the beginning of it, they were positioned in one spot, and by the end of it, they were positioned in another spot, which was a lower caste at the bottom.
• 29:12
  SPEAKER_01: So that by the time we got rid of their licenses and their passports and their um books, and we erased them from this, and we kept them out of the jobs, and we said we you couldn't live in this area, and we said who you couldn't marry, and we by the time we did all that, nobody was thinking about them when we marched them off and exterminated.
• 29:31
  SPEAKER_05: We do all things easy extermination.
• 29:33
  SPEAKER_01: So Raphael Lempkin coined the term genocide so that we could watch out for those steps, not so that we could say, Oh, look at all those people that just got killed, must have been a genocide.
• 29:42
  SPEAKER_01: No, he said that so we could look at the steps that are happening first and then say, let's prevent it's the right institute for genocide prevention.
• 29:55
  SPEAKER_01: Not not like, oh yeah, that must have been a genocide.
• 29:59
  SPEAKER_01: No, we want to stop it.
• 30:01
  SPEAKER_01: And so the the right the Lemkin Institute for Genocide Prevention is saying that the steps that the US government are taking today, there are now three, they just gave the third red flag that what America is doing is tantamount to and on its way to a genocide against trans people.
• 30:19
  SPEAKER_01: And those two red flags.
• 30:21
  SPEAKER_05: So they are the licenses, the what are the the three red flags you're saying?
• 30:26
  SPEAKER_01: It's not just like just the licenses, it's the policy.
• 30:29
  SPEAKER_01: I think it's the third time that they've said all the various policies in the in the United States are one red flag, two red flags, three red flags.
• 30:37
  SPEAKER_01: It's not just saying, oh, passports is a red flag, this is a red flag.
• 30:40
  SPEAKER_01: It's not that it's not one at a time because there's not one policy that's happening at it at once.
• 30:44
  SPEAKER_01: You know what I mean?
• 30:45
  SPEAKER_01: I wish it were, but like on on Tuesday, when they get rid of licenses, they're also getting rid of gender-affirming care.
• 30:51
  SPEAKER_01: So like it's the day that it's the red flag, not the one specific thing.
• 30:55
  SPEAKER_01: Because these things are happening at the same time.
• 30:57
  SPEAKER_01: You made three announcements of red flags.
• 31:01
  SPEAKER_01: And so then you were saying, and this is confirmed.
• 31:04
  SPEAKER_01: This is confirmed.
• 31:05
  SPEAKER_01: How are how is it confirmed by their own?
• 31:08
  SPEAKER_05: And they are out there saying, like, this is the goal.
• 31:11
  SPEAKER_05: We are going to stop any and all transitions.
• 31:14
  SPEAKER_05: That which, you know, they like you were saying before, the the Overton window on what people can say publicly has totally shifted.
• 31:20
  SPEAKER_05: They're saying at the America First Priorities Institute that they care about this no matter what age, that they pick low-hanging fruit because they can get wins, but ultimately their goal is to stop all people from transitioning and to destroy the trans community, which is a genocide.
• 31:34
  SPEAKER_05: You know, they're not going to say it's a genocide, right?
• 31:36
  SPEAKER_05: The phrase they keep using is protect everyone from it.
• 31:39
  SPEAKER_05: They, they, what's that uh thing in domestic violence?
• 31:42
  SPEAKER_05: Darvo, deny, uh, what is it?
• 31:44
  SPEAKER_05: Deny something.
• 31:46
  SPEAKER_01: Deny, attack, reverse, reverse, reverse victim and offender.
• 31:50
  SPEAKER_05: And that's exactly what it's like.
• 31:51
  SPEAKER_05: And that is so they are protecting us from it.
• 31:53
  SPEAKER_05: They are also saying, you know, you're the ones who caused this, you brought this on.
• 31:57
  SPEAKER_05: It's it's that whole, it is such a a classic set of like abuse tactics that are being weaponized in this genocide.
• 32:04
  SPEAKER_05: And they're just saying it now out loud.
• 32:06
  SPEAKER_05: And those people who we started off talking about at the beginning, you know, who are just making jokes, who were just saying, oh, no, no, no.
• 32:12
  SPEAKER_05: We're we're just comedians.
• 32:14
  SPEAKER_05: They're the ones who kind of set up the dominoes that lead us here.
• 32:17
  SPEAKER_05: Get the conversation.
• 32:18
  SPEAKER_01: They set up the domino effect that kicked, they set it up the dominoes and then kicked off the first domino.
• 32:23
  SPEAKER_01: And we could see where the dominoes were, they set them up going that way.
• 32:28
  SPEAKER_01: And we could see, oh, the dominoes are going, look where the dominoes end.
• 32:31
  SPEAKER_01: Look where they end.
• 32:32
  SPEAKER_01: We were saying that 10 years ago.
• 32:34
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 32:34
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 32:35
  SPEAKER_01: And now they're like, I can't believe the dominoes ended.
• 32:37
  SPEAKER_01: I can't believe the dominoes that I set up, that I kicked the first one.
• 32:41
  SPEAKER_01: I can't believe that the dominoes ended here.
• 32:44
  SPEAKER_01: No, honey.
• 32:46
  SPEAKER_01: It's wild.
• 32:47
  SPEAKER_01: And so it is, I think it's incredibly rich.
• 32:50
  SPEAKER_01: Uh literally, they are obviously two rich people.
• 32:55
  SPEAKER_01: Incredibly, yeah, that's absolutely true.
• 32:57
  SPEAKER_01: It is, it's so rich that that this is that anyone is that anyone is going to take anything they say seriously at all.
• 33:06
  SPEAKER_01: And um, you know, it's it's I even find it puzzling that if the agenda of the of the of you know conservatives or this think think tank or with this organization, certainly the Heritage Foundation, because in their new version of Project 2025, which is now 26 and 28, says that we're coming after women's rights, we're coming after trans rights, all this.
• 33:32
  SPEAKER_01: They uh they say they confirm that as well.
• 33:35
  SPEAKER_01: Um but I find it so puzzling why a um organization that's or a news organization or platform that's supportive of this effort would bring Caitlin Jenner on to complain about her passport anyway.
• 33:48
  SPEAKER_01: Like all that's gonna do is get people to be maybe you know.
• 33:53
  SPEAKER_05: I mean, they might just be maybe, but it for their audience, it might just make them mad at her.
• 33:58
  SPEAKER_05: You know, it's sort of like, are they bringing her on to just make I don't know.
• 34:01
  SPEAKER_05: Like, what does Tommy Lauren this oh be mad at no?
• 34:06
  SPEAKER_01: But I'm saying, yeah, they might be mad at Tommy Lauren.
• 34:08
  SPEAKER_01: It's puzzling why Caitlin Jenner would be up there saying, I've been harmed, because their whole thing is we're not actually harming any trans people.
• 34:15
  SPEAKER_01: Like that's their thing.
• 34:16
  SPEAKER_01: We're gonna erase everything, but we're we're protecting the we're protecting America, we're protecting the kids, and we're not harming trans people.
• 34:22
  SPEAKER_01: So when you bring a famous trans person to say, I've been harmed, then it doesn't, then it fucks the argument.
• 34:28
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 34:29
  SPEAKER_01: It's wild.
• 34:30
  SPEAKER_05: And it also makes you wonder like, why isn't Caitlin Jenner if she's actually starting to feel like she's being harmed by this?
• 34:34
  SPEAKER_05: Like, why is this where she's going?
• 34:36
  SPEAKER_05: Why not talk to someone who seems to actually like think she is being harmed and that has been caused by, but I guess she also went to Trump to say, like, can you fix my passport and not everyone else's?
• 34:45
  SPEAKER_05: So I guess we see how community-minded she really is.
• 34:49
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and it's a pa at this up at this point, I don't think that he is even answered.
• 34:53
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, I don't know if he's answered or not, but uh this was just yesterday's.
• 34:58
  SPEAKER_01: I don't remember what he says day to day.
• 35:00
  SPEAKER_01: I doubt her passport has been changed, but I don't think it would be oh, you know what?
• 35:07
  SPEAKER_01: It really would be wild to I'm I'm having this thought right on camera.
• 35:17
  SPEAKER_01: Um it would be interesting, she can't have her passport changed.
• 35:21
  SPEAKER_01: If she has her passport changed, this is the thing.
• 35:24
  SPEAKER_01: She, I assume she still has money, um can use her money and connections, which is the that's the thing that influences our president.
• 35:35
  SPEAKER_01: Um, she could use her money and connections to access him and request for her passport to be changed back.
• 35:41
  SPEAKER_01: It'd be wild now to see and I to see if it actually gets changed back.
• 35:46
  SPEAKER_01: We'll never know.
• 35:47
  SPEAKER_01: But I mean, I guess if she hadn't said any of this, we would have never known in the first place.
• 35:50
  SPEAKER_01: But if she starts traveling, we'll know.
• 35:52
  SPEAKER_01: So I guess we gotta pay at y'all pay attention to that bitch and see if she starts traveling.
• 35:56
  SPEAKER_01: Because if she does, we'll know that it was changed potentially.
• 36:00
  SPEAKER_01: And and so if it was changed, um, that that is an argument that, you know, it's necessary for trans people to have an ID that aligns with what they're presenting.
• 36:14
  SPEAKER_01: And uh, you know, I want people to know that like until like the 70s, we've had passports in this country for like a hundred years, almost a hundred years, right?
• 36:24
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and passports never used to have gender markers on them.
• 36:27
  SPEAKER_01: They did not have gender markers on them.
• 36:29
  SPEAKER_01: That is a recent thing.
• 36:30
  SPEAKER_01: But the point of identification should be to whoever you said you were, that's who you are.
• 36:37
  SPEAKER_01: And and this is we can see you're the same person.
• 36:41
  SPEAKER_01: That is what an ID is supposed to be.
• 36:44
  SPEAKER_01: Not to prove what was going on between your legs, not to say what scientific thing happened, you know, what chemistry your mother had when she was thinking about having birth.
• 36:54
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, it's not, it's not that.
• 36:56
  SPEAKER_01: It's who are you now as the person that's standing before me the right person?
• 37:03
  SPEAKER_01: And I mean, that's the purpose of it.
• 37:05
  SPEAKER_01: Obviously, they're deciding to use IDs to to to do something different.
• 37:11
  SPEAKER_01: And so we'll obviously have to see how this shakes out.
• 37:13
  SPEAKER_01: But what are your what is your final thought on this?
• 37:16
  SPEAKER_05: My final thought on this is that I, you know, we've been on a string of just shitty news in this country, absolutely endlessly shitty news.
• 37:22
  SPEAKER_05: And I I want to end on one really good piece of news, which is to say Congratulations for being named the Grand Marshal of New York City's Pride Parade.
• 37:33
  SPEAKER_05: We should have started there with some good news.
• 37:34
  SPEAKER_05: This is so funny.
• 37:35
  SPEAKER_05: Oh my gosh, it's true.
• 37:37
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, it's really cool.
• 37:39
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you.
• 37:39
  SPEAKER_01: I've had a chance to to participate in the parade and the march uh a handful of times over the years and always have a great time.
• 37:48
  SPEAKER_01: You know, I love, I'll go to any pride parade, honey.
• 37:51
  SPEAKER_01: I love a parade.
• 37:52
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, but there's something really special about Pride in New York and particularly the March in New York, especially since 2020 when it went from technically being called a parade to a march, which reflects more, less corporate and more um, you know, uh of the people.
• 38:11
  SPEAKER_01: Community-based, yeah.
• 38:13
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and so that feels really good.
• 38:15
  SPEAKER_01: So thank you.
• 38:16
  SPEAKER_01: Uh I'm excited.
• 38:17
  SPEAKER_05: Naming you says brings politics to the forefront as well.
• 38:20
  SPEAKER_05: You know, like putting you there gives you a platform to say all the things you're saying here on an even bigger scale, which is what we need, what we need right now.
• 38:29
  SPEAKER_05: And that is the only one, you know, like you are the you are the anti-Dave Chappelle and Caitlin Jetters.
• 38:34
  SPEAKER_05: You are the mouthpiece we need.
• 38:37
  SPEAKER_01: May I never have to utter their words, their names in my mouth.
• 38:40
  SPEAKER_05: In my never again.
• 38:42
  SPEAKER_05: But if you are listening to this and you were thinking, should I go to Pride this year?
• 38:45
  SPEAKER_05: Should I come to New York?
• 38:47
  SPEAKER_05: Like, yes, this is your sign.
• 38:48
  SPEAKER_05: Book your tickets, get on the way.
• 38:50
  SPEAKER_05: We need to see all of you there supporting this vision of the community, not the one that is out for themselves, not the ones that's just trying to change their own passports, but the people who are trying to make sure we all have access to these things.
• 39:03
  SPEAKER_05: So that's that is my final thought for the day.
• 39:05
  SPEAKER_05: How about you, Pep?
• 39:06
  SPEAKER_01: Well, I uh listen, I I know that this sometimes it's probably even increasingly on this platform, it feels like it's a lot of doom and gloom, but it's not.
• 39:16
  SPEAKER_01: Like this is violence of the state.
• 39:18
  SPEAKER_01: And make no mistake, these things do harm.
• 39:20
  SPEAKER_01: They do have an impact, as we've talked about, a harmful impact.
• 39:24
  SPEAKER_01: Caitlin Jenner's even affected.
• 39:26
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, but we, you know, the good news is because moments like pride, moments uh before and after, frankly, every single day, uh, the queer community um offers, provides uh joy for itself and for others.
• 39:43
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, in addition to providing moments of change and great thought, the queer community is there on the forefront.
• 39:50
  SPEAKER_01: It's queer folks.
• 39:50
  SPEAKER_01: Whenever I, the queer folks that I that I've seen, when I've gone to different movements and different like anti-war protests or pro uh uh reproductive rights uh, you know, uh rallies and just all these different things, queer people are there front and center every single time.
• 40:07
  SPEAKER_01: Always.
• 40:07
  SPEAKER_01: And and so, you know, that it that is heartening for me and uh inspiring for me.
• 40:15
  SPEAKER_01: And if y'all are inspired and uh, you know, there's a lot of things you can do, and maybe we'll post some some not only activities, but ways that people can get involved and help.
• 40:25
  SPEAKER_01: Because I do think that like let's make this summer one of that we really implement mutual, like the the thought of mutual aid and assisting each other and providing what what we need and getting what we need from our neighbors and sort of having that exchange.
• 40:39
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and it begins to be plugged in.
• 40:42
  SPEAKER_01: It that's right.
• 40:43
  SPEAKER_01: It begins by clicking like and subscribe and share talking about this episode, clip this episode, post it on social media.
• 40:51
  SPEAKER_01: If there's something that you thought that we said that was, you know, thoughtful or insightful or impactful or something, please share it.
• 40:58
  SPEAKER_01: Talk about this podcast.
• 40:59
  SPEAKER_01: We would love to get like maybe 10 more viewers, this or 10 more subscribers to our podcast uh this this month.
• 41:07
  SPEAKER_01: Just 10.
• 41:08
  SPEAKER_01: It would be great if you if your friend were one of the.
• 41:14
  SPEAKER_01: Um anyway, that's the episode.
• 41:15
  SPEAKER_01: We'll see you next week.
• 41:18
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you so much for joining us today.
• 41:20
  SPEAKER_03: This podcast is part of Pride House Media, hosted by us, Peppermint and the Cube, produced and edited by Josh Rosensweights with original music composed by Nell Balavan.
• 41:29
  SPEAKER_00: If you enjoyed this episode, then don't forget to subscribe wherever you listen to your podcast.
• 41:33
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• 41:39
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• 41:48
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you for listening, and remember, our history is your history.
• 41:52
  SPEAKER_00: Stay proud, stay curious, and we'll see you next time on Queer One One.