Latest / The Price of Music / Virgin Music Group buying Downtown Music Holdings, Bad Boy Chiller Crew file legal claim against their record label

Transcript

Virgin Music Group buying Downtown Music Holdings, Bad Boy Chiller Crew file legal claim against their record label · The Price of Music

• 1:07
  Hello and welcome to the Price of Music, the show that looks at
• 1:10
  the money behind the music industry with me, Steve Lemack
• 1:12
  and Music allies head of insight Stuart Dredge.
• 1:15
  It's our final episode of the year, so a lot to power through
• 1:19
  as it's the last one. Stuart, should we should we
• 1:22
  cover off a couple of news stories, a few news stories and
• 1:25
  then then maybe try and answer a couple of listeners questions?
• 1:28
  Because I noticed we've got, we had a couple of festival related
• 1:31
  queries about headliner fees and ticket sales, which I've been
• 1:35
  researching. So we could, we could do those.
• 1:37
  But before that, some news then, should we start with this?
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  Virgin Music Group is buying Downtown Music Holdings in a
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  deal that values downtown at $775,000,000.
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  Who are downtown? I've just got Petula Clark's
• 1:53
  downtown in my head. That's all I've got.
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  I've got nothing else, nothing to contribute who are downtown.
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  Why is this a big deal? I mean, you could sing.
• 2:01
  That would be fun. No, this actually, this broke
• 2:03
  yesterday. You know, I was having a
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  conversation with my wife who was saying surely the news will
• 2:06
  die down now, it will be slow because it's Christmas.
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  And literally that second this press release landed saying 7.
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  So yeah. So downtown, they're one of the
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  bigger independent music companies, even if they're not a
• 2:16
  household name, maybe for fans so much.
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  But they own CD Baby, the distributor that love artists
• 2:22
  use. They're a big music publisher.
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  They own Fuga, which is another company in distribution.
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  They own a company called Song Trust, which collects royalties
• 2:30
  for songwriters. So they they're big, but they're
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  kind of, a lot of it is behind the scenes, sort of providing
• 2:34
  services from musicians and independent musicians.
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  They're very big on independent music.
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  OK. And so, and so, yeah, so they're
• 2:41
  getting, or they're going to get bought or they've been announced
• 2:43
  and they will get bought by Virgin Music Group, which is
• 2:46
  part of Universal Music. And yeah, $775 million in cash,
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  but they have to get the approval of regulators in, in
• 2:55
  Europe, in America. So they're not expected to
• 2:58
  actually close the deal until the second-half of next year.
• 3:00
  And until then, it's going to carry on being 2 separate
• 3:02
  companies and Virgin Music. I mean, weirdly, because I, I
• 3:06
  think of Virgin Music Group and I think, oh, the Sex Pistols,
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  Richard Branson, you know, that era of Virgin Music being a
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  label. But nowadays it's the brand
• 3:14
  owned by Universal and it's kind of their, and this will sound
• 3:18
  like a weird phrase, people. It's their independent music.
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  So it's the bit of Universal that does services for artists.
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  It has distribution, it does all the stuff for independent
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  artists who release that self release stuff.
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  And it's become, it's become quite a big thing for Universal
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  over the last year and now this. OK.
• 3:37
  And what's what's the reaction been to this?
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  Because it is another example of a massive company buying out a
• 3:43
  smaller independent operation. This is exactly it.
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  There's been already this this morning.
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  There's been about 3 or 4 independent music bodies and
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  companies giving some quite spicy quotes saying they don't
• 3:57
  like the idea. And like you say, like major
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  labels have been buying up independent distributors,
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  independent companies. We wrote, we took, I think we
• 4:04
  talked about Universal and PS Recently Universal acquired PSA,
• 4:08
  famous independent label group. There's a really good quote if
• 4:11
  you if you enjoy quotes with with with the story.
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  Martin Mills from Beggars Group had a quote this morning saying
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  the cynical use of the Virgin brand, once synonymous with
• 4:20
  independent entrepreneurship, should not hide the fact that
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  this is about utter dominance and control.
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  And he went on to say this is another step on the road of Umds
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  pretence to be the independence fairy godmother.
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  But there's a wolf under that Cape which gives is quite a kind
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  of evocative, isn't it? And Impala, who are the European
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  in his body have said it's another land grab and we expect
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  competition authorities in key jurisdictions to carry out
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  thorough investigations and block these deals.
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  An aim in the UK has also said it's concerning a continuing
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  trend of over consolidation and reduction of independent boost
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  to market. So that's kind of the point
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  here. It's like it's not that any
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  artist who, for example, releases music through CD Baby
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  now will stop doing that or will suddenly be on a universal deal.
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  That's different. But it's more the case that that
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  people in the indie sector are worried about there being fewer
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  and fewer companies that aren't owned by majors independent
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  things. So it's it's kind of a
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  everyone's crossed today in that sector.
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  For their part, Virgin Music, we're excited and saying this is
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  going to be really important for us, going to help us serve
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  artists better. They're very positive, as you'd
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  expect. But there's now going to be
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  several months of regulators looking at this.
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  The independent boys will be telling them we think it's a bad
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  idea. Universal will be saying here's
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  why we think it should go through and we won't know until
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  after June next year whether it's actually going to happen or
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  or there could even be, even if it's not blocked, there could
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  be, they could say, well, actually you have to sell some
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  bits of it like in the past in this kind of deal.
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  So yeah, there's also playful there.
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  But it is It's the latest example of this kind of
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  consolidation, where independent music is now an increasingly big
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  part of the majors business too. Now this appears to be something
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  of an emerging trend. Artists filing legal claims
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  against the record labels which they're signed to.
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  This latest one, British rappers Bad Boy Chiller Crew have lodged
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  a legal claim against their record label at the High Court.
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  Tell us more. Yeah, this is this is one of
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  those bands when I start to feel really old because they were
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  nominated for a Brit award last year for best group and I was
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  like, who? A bad boy chiller crew?
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  I've not heard of them at all because I've been in my filter
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  bubble. But they're, for those who
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  aren't aware, like me, they were, they were trio from
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  Bradford. They began online, they had
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  their own reality TV show on ITV 2, which is a kind of a new way
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  of breaking into the music industry.
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  And they've released four album tapes and they arrived at the
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  Brits in a horse and carriage. So I like the cut of their jib.
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  You know, there's they've got a good sense of humour and they've
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  been signed to a label called House Anxiety since 2020 and
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  they've put out three albums and mixtapes with them.
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  But yeah, so they're, they're now they're taking action in the
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  High Court saying they're owed. They reckon it's about a
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  £400,000 in unpaid royalties, a mixture of kind of royalties if
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  they haven't been paid and also a licensing deal that was done
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  with the subject of Sony Music. And they said they won't be paid
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  money from that. And the band also say their
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  contract with the label has ended.
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  And with that in mind, they would try to release their own,
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  a new EP in June, not through the label and had to take it
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  down after the label said no, it's a breach of contract.
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  You are still signed to us. So there's been this dispute for
• 7:27
  a while now, right? I've got some quotes and it's
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  one of those things we probably should read the quotes out,
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  shouldn't we, So that each side is represented?
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  Yeah, I think so. I was about to say, what are the
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  labels saying? But give us both sides of the
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  story then. Yeah, so the, the group told
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  BBC. Like like our other bands we
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  don't look for litigation, but when faced with a label that
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  won't let us put our own music out ourselves for our fans and
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  not pay us to roll his overall music, we felt we had no other
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  option but house anxieties. Founder Jamie Hodgson disagrees.
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  So we totally refute these claims and welcome the
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  opportunity to clarify these accuracies.
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  And he said as an artist friendly independent label we
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  ran hugely proud of every element of Full Whack No Breaks,
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  which is their album that broke through and all the hard work
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  went into his campaign, then stepping aside to allow BBCC to
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  pursue their dreams of being a major label artist.
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  There'll be no further comment at this time.
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  So it does seem like they've fallen out over stuff including
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  what the contract involves and if they're still signed and now
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  this litigation concerns whether the ban's been paid, what they
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  think they should be paid, and the High Court will have to
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  decide. So, yeah, it's a shame really.
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  I mean, it's like you say, it's kind of a trend, a green number
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  artists are kind of looking at the books and looking at what
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  they've been paid and saying, hang on, I don't think it's
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  right. And and taking that further.
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  So not the first, not the last, I think we'll see.
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  Here's a story which actually there's there's more behind this
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  than if this comes across as sounding like this might be
• 8:54
  quite dry, don't worry because as I say, there's there's more
• 8:58
  to this than meets the eye. The UK government has launched a
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  consultation on plans to give certainty to the creative
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  industries on how copyrighted material can be used to train AI
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  models. This is an ongoing obviously
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  discussion around AI and what you can use, which artist music,
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  what you pay to use an artist, what you pay to an artist to use
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  their music to train your AI. So this has been going on for
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  ages. But this so new consultation
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  good thing or a bad thing? You'd imagine the record
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  industry would be applauding this, but.
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  Exactly that. So this has been announced just
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  half an hour as ago as we're recording, so stuff's still
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  coming on in it. But yeah, I mean, it's, it's the
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  government saying, look, we think we need to sort out AI
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  copyright so that everyone knows where they stand, so that the
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  music industry gets paid and so that AI companies know what they
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  can use to trade and what they can't.
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  So this consultation, it kind of wants, the government wants the
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  views of the industry and AI companies and individuals too.
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  And it but it's got some new ideas he wants to put in front
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  of them first. And that's what it's done this
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  morning, right? So to summarise it as undrily as
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  possible, but I'll rely on your face.
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  Tell me if it's really dry. OK.
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  So it would introduce something that's called an exception to
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  copyright law covering AI training for commercial
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  purposes. So that is basically saying it
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  would carve out from the copyright laws that already
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  exist. You can use commercial music to
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  train your AI if you want, but the key point is right holders
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  will be able to reserve their rights, which basically means
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  they could say, no, you can't use our stuff unless you sign a
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  licensing deal. And that would that would be
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  respected. OK, makes sense.
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  Makes sense. So far, not too dry.
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  Basic fact, it's all good. OK, And it would have some rules
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  forcing AI companies to be transparent what they've used so
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  that you could be could check on that and check when not using
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  anything. And there's a quote from like
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  Lisa Nandy, who's a culture of media and sports equity saying,
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  and this sounds like a really good thing.
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  The government firmly believes that our musicians, writers,
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  artists and other creatives, because this covers everything,
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  not just music, it's every kind of creative art form should have
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  the ability to know and control how their content is used by IA
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  firms and be able to seek licensing deals and fair
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  payment, which is what the music industry has been asking for,
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  like you say. But then I got this, the BPI,
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  the labels body put out their statement on it.
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  And Doctor Joe Twist, who we interviewed on the POD a few
• 11:13
  months ago, she's CEO. She said we look forward to
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  engaging with the detail of the government's proposals and we
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  welcome elements to improve transparency, record keeping and
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  the objective of developing licensing models.
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  But, and here's where the buck comes, it remains our firm view
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  that an exception to copyright law for AI training with rights
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  reservation would be hugely damaging to a national interest.
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  And in fact, we believe it would further disincentivise tech
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  companies from doing so, from getting licensing.
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  So the BPI is saying we don't think this idea of you can use
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  what you want unless your rights are reserved.
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  They don't like that. They think that's a bad idea.
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  They wouldn't be. You can't use anything unless
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  you've signed a deal, right? So it's kind of more
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  controversial than it sounded like that, that the quotes in
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  the government's press release were like, great musicians to
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  get paid needs to be fair. And the labels put it at least.
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  It's like we don't like the idea.
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  But that's the whole point of a consultation is they get to kind
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  of go and make that case now. So it's not set in stone what's
• 12:07
  going to happen. But the other thing?
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  Oh, go on. On the subject of consultations,
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  there aren't awful lot of consultations going on at
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  government at the moment, aren't they?
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  They're consulting on everything it's it seems.
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  I spoke to some political lobbyists last week who said
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  they are wading through brand new consultations, which are
• 12:30
  ongoing at the moment. But anyway, it's, it's another
• 12:34
  one they're they're obviously trying to find, trying to find
• 12:37
  the root cause of various problems and looking for
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  solutions to them. But there's a lot of chat going
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  on. And it's, it's 10 weeks at
• 12:46
  least. So it's kind of capped.
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  It's not going to be last one. I mean, the other thing this
• 12:49
  morning is I got a press release from the Council of Music Makers
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  who they represent, musicians, producers, managers, and they
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  put out a statement. Again, they've said this before
• 12:59
  and we've talked about it before, reminding labels and
• 13:01
  publishers that consent should go two ways.
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  And they said explicit consent should always be secured from
• 13:07
  music makers. And when licensing deals are
• 13:10
  done between the music industry and AI companies, all music
• 13:12
  music must be fairly remunerated.
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  So besides. So we've got the BPI saying we
• 13:17
  don't like what the government is suggesting, and then we've
• 13:20
  got the body representing music makers saying we still don't
• 13:23
  trust the labels and the publishers to pay us fairly if
• 13:27
  they do strike deals. Yeah.
• 13:29
  So I think this consultation is going to see some more of that
• 13:31
  that argument going on as well between the music industry
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  itself as well as it arguing against what the government's
• 13:36
  doing. So it could be quite fun.
• 13:37
  Yeah, I think, I think the position of the artists is now
• 13:42
  it's they're now at the point, aren't they, where they are
• 13:45
  determinedly going to make a stand because of the apparent
• 13:49
  failure of the streaming enquiry to alter, you know, alter the
• 13:54
  dial in any way in which in the in regards to how they get paid
• 13:58
  and the money that they get paid through through streaming.
• 14:02
  So I think there's they will be I think more and more vocal next
• 14:06
  year. The artists and the artists
• 14:08
  bodies. We've got one, we've got one
• 14:11
  more story for today. This I mean, I was going to say
• 14:16
  this is the competition. Is it Apple Music Radio is
• 14:20
  expanding? Tell us about this.
• 14:23
  I mean, because Beats, the Apple Radio station launched to a
• 14:27
  great fanfare, didn't it? And well, it must be about a
• 14:30
  decade ago now, was later rebranded Apple Radio.
• 14:34
  I don't think it's made a huge impact here, but maybe you can
• 14:37
  tell us more and about this planned expansion.
• 14:41
  Yeah, well, it's one of those things in a very Apple way that
• 14:43
  that you don't, no one knows. They don't announce listening
• 14:45
  figures. They don't, you know, there's no
• 14:47
  stats. You know, I'm not even sure they
• 14:48
  do the ragile thing that most of the radio stations in the
• 14:51
  country do they So so right from the start, it's one of the
• 14:54
  things that Apple Music has always had that's different is
• 14:56
  it has live radio. They built these studios and
• 14:57
  they're in London, I think, and and in California and somewhere
• 15:01
  else. And they had round the clock
• 15:03
  radio and they started with one station, then they had a hit
• 15:05
  station, the country station over time and now three more.
• 15:09
  And one of them like so there's Apple Music Club, which is dance
• 15:12
  mixes and Apple Music Chill, which is kind of chill out music
• 15:15
  around the clock. And Apple Music at Uno, which is
• 15:18
  the most interesting, which is kind of Latin music, which has
• 15:19
  had a real huge surge of last year.
• 15:22
  So now they've got these six stations.
• 15:24
  It's like a real radio network now and they're going to have
• 15:26
  famous artists hosting shows that they've got.
• 15:28
  Becky G is one of the ones from music who know she's a very big
• 15:30
  Latin American artist. Brian Eno is doing chill, which
• 15:33
  if you're going to get a DJ to do your, you know, a show on a
• 15:36
  chill out station, I think Brian Eno is probably top of the list,
• 15:39
  isn't he? And there was a pitch from Zane
• 15:42
  Lowe, because I think he's, he is a front man now for a lot of
• 15:45
  Apple Music stuff. And he said in a world of AI and
• 15:48
  algorithms, Apple Music Radio, I can't do his voice.
• 15:50
  Apple Music Radio is live. It's real people.
• 15:53
  It's a shared event, which kind of is what, what Apple are
• 15:56
  trying to remind everyone of that they've always been they've
• 15:58
  always had this little element to their that their the way they
• 16:01
  speak about it is like weird people.
• 16:03
  We're not algorithms even they do have algorithms doing other
• 16:06
  playlists, but they so it's it's kind of Apple reminding everyone
• 16:09
  we have live people talking live.
• 16:12
  And weirdly, and I know Zane Lowe is someone who's he's a
• 16:14
  Marmite character, isn't he? But that idea of radio being a
• 16:18
  shared event, that is still the thing that makes me listen to
• 16:21
  the radio. Like the essence of you're
• 16:22
  listening together to something at the same time.
• 16:26
  So I get the the pitch. But yeah, I've no idea how
• 16:29
  popular music radio is. All the shows it has are also
• 16:31
  released on Apple Music to listen to on demand, an Apple
• 16:34
  podcast. So you know, they find listeners
• 16:36
  in different ways. I'm just, I'm just amazed that
• 16:39
  they missed a trick. If they put a radio station
• 16:41
  called Uno that they didn't call the chill out radio station Eno,
• 16:45
  you could just oh, I mean, would it make sense?
• 16:49
  Uno Eno, Yeah, but. You can have that.
• 16:51
  You can have that for free Apple marketing.
• 16:55
  It's weird, but like, like you say, I mean, I don't know what I
• 16:56
  mean. I don't know.
• 16:59
  There's announcement of something about news shows on
• 17:01
  Apple Music Radio. But yeah, I don't, I honestly
• 17:02
  don't know how people listen to them happy.
• 17:05
  They could be really huge and no one knows, or they could be
• 17:07
  really tiny and no one knows. Literally no one does know, do
• 17:10
  they? But it sounds like the radio
• 17:11
  industry isn't well, I suppose it launched.
• 17:13
  There was a big who I wasn't there of.
• 17:15
  Is this going to? Is this going?
• 17:16
  To I mean, I think when at its initial launch, because Apple
• 17:21
  being the all powerful Apple, I think people were worried that
• 17:28
  the music industry would give all their exclusive first place
• 17:32
  to Apple in return for having a high profile on the front page
• 17:36
  of, you know, the pages where they were selling loads of
• 17:39
  downloads. Just see what I mean.
• 17:40
  So a new album would be coming out in return for this album
• 17:44
  being heavily plugged throughout wherever you go on the Apple
• 17:48
  sites, you will see this album, you know, prominently being
• 17:53
  plugged. And in return for that, all the
• 17:57
  music would end up on Apple Radio.
• 17:59
  And that didn't happen. It's sort of for a while
• 18:03
  everyone was giving music to Apple saying to, you know,
• 18:08
  traditional radio stations, you you come second and third now
• 18:12
  when it comes to us giving you the new single by X major
• 18:15
  artists. And that's and then that's sort
• 18:17
  of then it went away again, really.
• 18:20
  And as you say, the big thing is no one knows who's listening,
• 18:24
  but the industry doesn't talk about it in terms of it having a
• 18:27
  huge influence. Otherwise, you know, they
• 18:30
  wouldn't still be the major labels.
• 18:33
  They wouldn't still be like, you know, very interested in getting
• 18:36
  a record on Radio One's playlist or Radio 2.
• 18:40
  So I don't think it's, I don't think it's had a huge impact.
• 18:43
  I mean, there are obviously good shows on there here and here and
• 18:47
  there. And some of the new music shows
• 18:50
  are interesting. But John 1 was really good
• 18:53
  because John is famously, famously really into discovering
• 18:57
  new music. And so, but that comes down to
• 19:01
  the fact that people are interested in Elton John rather
• 19:03
  than being interested in Apple Radio going to Apple Radio
• 19:06
  because Apple Radio is, is is is, you know, is something is
• 19:11
  providing something that people want to listen to.
• 19:13
  No, they just want to listen to Elton John.
• 19:15
  I think that's the difference. It's an.
• 19:16
  Interesting trend, isn't it? Because like you've got, I mean,
• 19:18
  you're, you know what all about 6 Music.
• 19:20
  They they've got Iggy Pop, they've got Guy Garvey Charis
• 19:23
  like artists doing shows. I think SiriusXM in the States
• 19:26
  has gone down that route as well.
• 19:28
  And Apple Music, like if you're if you're an interesting artist
• 19:30
  with stories to tell, you can be a radio DJ now.
• 19:33
  And some of them, I'm sure, I mean, some of them must have not
• 19:34
  worked. I'd love to hear the ones where
• 19:36
  they got the artisans kind of do a show and they were terrible.
• 19:39
  And this never heard the light of day.
• 19:40
  But but I quite like that trend of of artists being able to talk
• 19:43
  about the stuff they love and play it, you know.
• 19:45
  So yeah, a bit more of that here, but not the only person
• 19:48
  doing it. OK, that's news for this week.
• 21:24
  A couple of listeners questions actually just before we tackle
• 21:27
  these questions about festivals, 1 clarification which we need to
• 21:31
  make which regarding a question from our last episode, Stuart.
• 21:36
  Yeah, so I put my dance cap on for this bit because I made a
• 21:40
  mistake. So yeah, we were talking about
• 21:42
  how artists get paid for radio and TV plays last week and I was
• 21:44
  talking about featured artists and non featured artists and
• 21:48
  said the latter just get a one off fee for their session and no
• 21:50
  airplay royalties. And then the very nice John at
• 21:52
  PPL got in touch politely and said that's completely wrong.
• 21:56
  That's right. So non featured session machines
• 21:58
  do get airplay royalties when every time a track is played.
• 22:00
  And there's actually a section on the PPL website called who
• 22:03
  can join as a performer where it tells you exactly how you can
• 22:06
  make a claim through their portal to be added to the
• 22:08
  performer lineup. I'm recording and say I did
• 22:11
  this. So the backing vocals, it's
• 22:13
  generally going to be an audible contribution.
• 22:15
  It's a general rule. That's kind of and you'll get
• 22:17
  royalties and I've I got the list, the list of things you can
• 22:21
  register that you played on a recording and an audible way to
• 22:24
  get royalties. And it's, you know, it's like a
• 22:26
  big list of brass instruments, electronics, keyboards, vocals
• 22:29
  and so on as a miscellaneous list.
• 22:31
  So you can say I did animal sounds on a record.
• 22:36
  I did broom, which I can only assume is some kind of sweeping,
• 22:42
  clogged dancer, kazoo, one man band and siren.
• 22:47
  So if you did one or more of those things and you haven't
• 22:49
  registered, you should be getting airplay royalties.
• 22:50
  I mean, I it's given me a sense of how I could have a musical
• 22:54
  career because I could play a siren.
• 22:56
  I could go into a dragon. You press a siren at the right
• 22:59
  moment and then get some royalties for it.
• 23:00
  I mean, I'd say I could do the broom, but then even the broom's
• 23:03
  got to have some rhythm to it. You can't just make a, you know,
• 23:08
  a broom sound even if you're buying it.
• 23:12
  You've got to be in time, haven't you?
• 23:13
  You've got to sweep in time. Yeah.
• 23:16
  So I think maybe that's maybe that's not what McCartney.
• 23:19
  Who did? Who did chewed celery on a Super
• 23:21
  Fur Animals track? Famously, I think it is.
• 23:24
  They've got they've got McCartney in chewing celery.
• 23:27
  Oh come on, come on, this is from your COVID fever dream.
• 23:30
  This surely? I'm going to Google it right
• 23:32
  now. Well, everyone can listen.
• 23:34
  Can look it up for animals, celery, McCartney.
• 23:38
  Right. And I think what they'll find is
• 23:42
  Yep, they collapsed him in 2001 track and they even shared the
• 23:46
  minute long isolated take of just of his celery solo.
• 23:50
  So but yeah, so Pete, so thanks. So thank you, General PPO.
• 23:53
  Yeah, that that's I was completely wrong last week and.
• 23:56
  Yeah, I mean it's and to be fair, it's not often we've been
• 23:58
  doing this what's for nearly a year now and I think it's both
• 24:02
  on the only times we've come a cropper.
• 24:04
  But do get in touch if you have more information about anything
• 24:07
  we cover or any other insights or clarifications and we would
• 24:12
  be most grateful. This week's questions.
• 24:14
  So both festival related the verses from Bob Bright who says,
• 24:19
  should we be concerned that music festivals will be able to
• 24:22
  continue in the future because there seems to be a lot of
• 24:26
  cancellations and postponements of late.
• 24:28
  I was talking, says Bob, to someone involved in a smallish
• 24:31
  local festival in Hertfordshire. Was very surprised by the
• 24:35
  amounts paid to the headline artists.
• 24:37
  Brackets 100,000 lbs each. They said the amounts paid are
• 24:42
  really making it very difficult to fill the line up.
• 24:46
  And you know, if the artists charge so much, says Bob, will
• 24:50
  will there be any festivals left for them to play?
• 24:53
  So it's, I mean, it's an interesting point as it goes.
• 24:55
  I mean, it takes us back to the very early days of this podcast
• 24:58
  when the subject of festivals came up one or two times.
• 25:02
  We made the point then that a large proportion of a festival
• 25:05
  budget these days goes on paying the headliners because obviously
• 25:09
  they're the ultimate draw. They're what's, you know, what
• 25:11
  people are looking at when they're deciding which festivals
• 25:14
  to go to. You naturally sort of look at
• 25:16
  who the big names are. Having said that, of course
• 25:19
  there will be there'll be a proportion of the audience as
• 25:21
  well who are more interested in the undercard and who else is on
• 25:24
  across the weekend when. It sort of depends on what sort
• 25:26
  of music fan you are as to how you judge your festival line up.
• 25:30
  But anyway, we sought some expert advice on this Bob,
• 25:33
  including from Tim Cleasby who runs Tramlines Festival in
• 25:38
  Sheffield, who have Pulp as one of their headliners next year.
• 25:42
  Which will be a big moment in Tramlines history.
• 25:45
  As you'll appreciate if you listened to our interview with
• 25:48
  Tim, which we did a few months back when he gave us this really
• 25:52
  very insightful look into how you run a festival these days.
• 25:56
  If you missed it or any of the past episodes but the one with
• 25:59
  Tim on, you'll find them all on our our feed.
• 26:01
  It's worth a listen. But anyway, Tim says.
• 26:04
  Great question, Bob, and one that most festivals can identify
• 26:08
  with. The cost of everything has risen
• 26:11
  dramatically in recent years, not just artist fees and I'm
• 26:16
  sure artists, you know, they're feeling the impact of rising
• 26:18
  touring costs as well, says Tim. But to add to our own problems,
• 26:22
  there's the impact of COVID, Brexit, the cost of living
• 26:26
  crisis, all have had an impact on costs across the festival
• 26:31
  sector. We've seen an incredible amount
• 26:33
  of festivals vanish. And I agree that there is a risk
• 26:36
  that the pool of festivals will dwindle, says Tim.
• 26:43
  And this is, and this is truly, I mean, we are, we are seeing
• 26:46
  it's we are seeing the impact of the yeah, the price rises, as
• 26:52
  Jim says, across the board. And for all the things that you
• 26:56
  have to put into a festival production, everything from the
• 26:58
  cost of hiring a, hiring a toilet to bringing in APA,
• 27:02
  possibly from across in from Europe, all these things have
• 27:07
  skyrocketed. So yeah, it's, it's, it's, it's,
• 27:11
  it's a challenging, it's a challenging time, I think for
• 27:14
  festivals at the moment. So there's the problems with
• 27:18
  the, the financing. Tim goes on to say also that, I
• 27:22
  mean, securing any sort of line up is very challenging, but it
• 27:26
  is for many reasons. It's not just the cost.
• 27:29
  There's artist availability, you've got to make sure the
• 27:32
  touring schedules line up, so you've got to hope that
• 27:34
  someone's on tour around the time that you're putting on your
• 27:37
  festival. Then there's exclusivity deals
• 27:40
  as well, which you have to take into account where certain bands
• 27:44
  or artists will agree to do 1 festival and one festival only.
• 27:50
  So Add all these things together and headlining fees have risen,
• 27:53
  says Tim. Certainly for us, although
• 27:56
  sometimes that's because we're booking bigger artists, but
• 27:59
  sometimes, yeah, it's just the cost of the artist fee
• 28:02
  increasing by the year that there is, says Tim.
• 28:06
  There's another element to this though as well, which is that
• 28:10
  we're not seeing as many new artists breaking through and
• 28:13
  becoming big enough to headline a festival.
• 28:15
  So. So if the Paula Festival
• 28:17
  headliners is quite small, then they can charge almost what they
• 28:22
  want because there's no competition.
• 28:25
  In a way. I think that's the thing, Tim
• 28:27
  goes on to say, you know, This is why we nurture future
• 28:29
  headliners. We've had the writings play, you
• 28:32
  know, a few times over the years and this year they are now at
• 28:35
  the point where they can headline on the Saturday night.
• 28:39
  But anyway, there's a few, there's a few reasons.
• 28:42
  I've also, after Tim, I got in touch with John Rostrum.
• 28:48
  John is the CEO of the AIF, that's the Association of
• 28:52
  Independent Festivals. So this is the organization
• 28:56
  which represents indie festivals across the country.
• 28:59
  And he told, he told me that and I quote, artist fees are one of
• 29:03
  the most talked about issues facing festival promoters and
• 29:07
  amongst festival promoters at the moment.
• 29:10
  And, you know, he said, obviously, look, promoters
• 29:13
  absolutely understand that artist costs have risen in the
• 29:16
  same way that our production costs have risen.
• 29:19
  And, you know, we recognize that live music is a big part of how
• 29:22
  artists get paid. However, it's pretty clear that
• 29:27
  from anyone who's had sights across a lot of festival
• 29:31
  budgets, it's clear that top line artists fees are, and I
• 29:35
  quote, crippling festivals. Put simply, says John, if they
• 29:39
  were to reduce those fees by 10%, it's been argued that they
• 29:43
  could save many festivals from falling.
• 29:46
  And if you want proof of this, John told us that you know, the
• 29:51
  in terms of where we're up to with festivals that aren't
• 29:54
  coming back, the total number of festivals that won't be
• 29:58
  returning next year. So the number of festivals we've
• 30:01
  lost in 2024 now stands at 7878 festivals down, which I mean,
• 30:08
  this is because even if you argued that so you'll be going
• 30:12
  back a few years, maybe just before COVID, even if you could
• 30:16
  argue that the, you know, the summer was over saturated with
• 30:19
  events. This that figure indicates, I
• 30:23
  think to me that we've gone way past the kind of commercial
• 30:25
  rebalancing of supply and demand for festivals.
• 30:30
  We're now at the point where, you know, the popular festivals
• 30:33
  are just really struggling to stay afloat, which, yeah, I
• 30:38
  don't know what you say, what you think, but I think this,
• 30:40
  this is a theme which is going to come back again to haunt us
• 30:42
  next year, I think. It's and it's difficult, isn't
• 30:44
  it? Because like you say, it's, it's
• 30:45
  about it shouldn't be. It's not festivals against
• 30:47
  artists. It's not these, these two sides
• 30:50
  work together. That's perfect.
• 30:51
  But I hope you think, do you remember?
• 30:52
  Was it, it was secret Garden party this year, I think that
• 30:54
  announced they'd have no headliners, didn't they?
• 30:56
  And that was that was they, they took approach saying, and I
• 30:58
  think there's a quote like why allocate a massive budget to one
• 31:01
  or two headliners when it could fuel another 50 outstanding
• 31:03
  acts? And I wonder if we'll see some,
• 31:06
  I guess to do that, you have to be the kind of festival where
• 31:08
  you have a reputation that isn't just about the bands you book,
• 31:12
  the acts. Because you have to have a
• 31:14
  festival people want to come to for the culture around it, for
• 31:17
  the things that. And they don't really mind who
• 31:19
  you book because they they sort of trust you to book stuff they
• 31:21
  will love. So I wonder if that will happen
• 31:23
  more. Maybe some press will say, look,
• 31:24
  we can't, we can't carry on paying more and more for
• 31:26
  headliners. We'll spend the money elsewhere
• 31:29
  and on smaller acts. And maybe, maybe that could be
• 31:31
  in a way good for some of those up and coming artists because
• 31:34
  they'll get to play a bigger stages and they'll get a bit
• 31:36
  more money. I love the fact that you find a
• 31:39
  positive in everything. I mean, I agree with you like I
• 31:42
  agree with you. And they kind of I think people
• 31:45
  can sometimes say, well, it's just sorting out the wheat from
• 31:47
  the chaff, isn't it? And things that are going out of
• 31:49
  business, we're not well run and I think we're festivals that's I
• 31:53
  think we're losing good popular long standing events.
• 31:58
  And I think I agree with you. I think it's a, it's a, it's a
• 32:01
  moment of real. We need to do something now
• 32:04
  rather than just say, oh, isn't it sad?
• 32:06
  This is a question from Will Hughes.
• 32:09
  I'm interested, says Will, in the process and politics of
• 32:12
  announcing festival lineups. How early do festivals know
• 32:16
  their full lineup? Do some artists insist on being
• 32:19
  announced individually and do festivals announce their line up
• 32:23
  at a certain time to maximize ticket sales?
• 32:27
  Well, thank you very much for this.
• 32:28
  I mean, yes, I think it's I think that's yes, no and yes are
• 32:33
  the answers to your questions. But yeah, certainly it's an
• 32:36
  interesting one about timing of putting tickets on.
• 32:39
  So we'll get to that in a SEC. Let's do the other bit first
• 32:41
  though, the timeline of when artists are confirmed, But this
• 32:45
  again, in the words of the experts.
• 32:46
  John Roston says as a rule of thumb, booking of headliners
• 32:50
  starts pretty much as the current festival finishes.
• 32:54
  So they're a whole year ahead as a festival is taking place.
• 32:57
  They're already the festival promoters thinking who we're
• 32:59
  going to get next year. In fact, John adds, some larger
• 33:05
  events will be booking more than a year ahead.
• 33:09
  So, you know, and a festival like pick one as well, let's use
• 33:14
  Glastonbury. If you were Glastonbury, you
• 33:16
  might even be thinking about who's going to be headlining the
• 33:19
  following year, even before you've got to to this summer.
• 33:23
  And John says, you know, booking has changed a lot in recent
• 33:26
  years. There's been an acceleration for
• 33:28
  all kinds of reasons towards having all headliners announced
• 33:32
  and out in the public along with a big part of the line up by the
• 33:37
  latest end of November. And that's true.
• 33:39
  I, I, we've, I think we've mentioned this before the, the
• 33:42
  festivals are going on sale. What feels that they feel like
• 33:46
  they're going on sale earlier or at least they're announcing
• 33:50
  their line UPS. The Early Birds Early bird
• 33:53
  tickets often start the day after the last one finished.
• 33:56
  Yeah, this is true. Actually.
• 33:57
  This is a point we'll get to in a second about ticket sales.
• 34:00
  But John says if you have a look this year just in terms of, you
• 34:03
  know announcements, blood stock were fully announced and sold
• 34:08
  out by early autumn and Kendall calling did they did the same
• 34:13
  and has sold out in record time. So good that they've sold the
• 34:17
  tickets elsewhere. There are there are a couple of
• 34:20
  of the there are a couple of key moments for announcements.
• 34:25
  So the first is just what you said, early bird tickets.
• 34:30
  These are tickets which go on sale within a month of the
• 34:33
  festival taking place. The tickets are on sale for the
• 34:37
  next year's festival. Many festivals actually have the
• 34:39
  tickets on sale at the festival while you're while you're there.
• 34:43
  But I didn't realize how important that early bird ticket
• 34:47
  is. I thought the pickup would be
• 34:50
  10%, maybe hug or something. Yeah, something like that.
• 34:54
  But John says so the the early birds when it comes to at least
• 35:00
  independent events, they sell the largest quantity of tickets.
• 35:05
  Green Man for example sold out entirely on one day and many
• 35:10
  similar long standing festivals or festivals that are members of
• 35:14
  the IIF might sell get this between 50 and 70% of their
• 35:18
  tickets in the early bird window.
• 35:21
  Wow. Which I guess that's a lot of
• 35:23
  people do that. A lot of people go to Green Man
• 35:25
  every year, don't they? So I guess it's like booking a
• 35:28
  holiday, you book up early and you know you're going to look
• 35:31
  forward. To So the key moments are early
• 35:35
  bird tickets and then when you announce the headliners,
• 35:39
  there'll be another spike of sales.
• 35:41
  Then then you try and do another push in January, maybe add some
• 35:45
  more acts or announce at a different stage or a different
• 35:49
  area of entertainment. And then then apparently ticket
• 35:52
  sales go quite quiet until you get to around April, May when
• 35:56
  people start thinking about festivals again.
• 35:59
  As for this question about bands wanting to be announced
• 36:02
  individually, I mean I can. It does happen occasionally, but
• 36:07
  mostly if if an artist wants to announce all their dates for the
• 36:11
  summer in one go, so they want to let people know where, you
• 36:15
  know, you'll be able to see them.
• 36:17
  But and there probably will be some discussion between a
• 36:19
  headliner and a festival. But mostly, yeah, usually it's
• 36:22
  just it's in the hands of the individual festival who will
• 36:25
  make the announcement. And we spoke to Mr. Cleesby
• 36:28
  about this as well. Who?
• 36:29
  And he said, I don't think we've ever announced any artists in
• 36:33
  isolation because we're a music festival, not a stand alone
• 36:36
  show. And you know, it's the whole
• 36:38
  line up that plays a part in people coming along.
• 36:41
  As for booking, just to clear this one up, Tim says generally
• 36:45
  we start talking to and thinking about headliners anywhere from
• 36:49
  11 to 15 months ahead of the festival taking place.
• 36:53
  I imagine that Pulp conversation, for instance, has
• 36:56
  been going on for quite some time.
• 36:58
  And on the ticket sales, Tim says, yes, 2 main peaks of
• 37:03
  sales, one, when we first go on sale and two, when the lineup is
• 37:08
  announced, when we put the full, you know, all the, the headline
• 37:12
  announcement up, that's another spike in sales.
• 37:15
  The timing of this, says Tim, is really is almost governed by
• 37:19
  lots of factors, but you have to think it really think it through
• 37:23
  because the timing is all important.
• 37:25
  For instance, as Tim, if you announce too close to Christmas,
• 37:29
  you get lost in the buzz of Christmas.
• 37:31
  If you announce too early in the new Year, no one's got any money
• 37:34
  left after after after Christmas to spend on your tickets.
• 37:38
  So you have to think where in the calendar you're going to put
• 37:41
  your announcement as you as you assign well to maximize your
• 37:46
  ticket. So I think what Tim is is saying
• 37:49
  is it's a science. That's what it is.
• 37:52
  It's a science, is it not? Not for amateurs like us.
• 37:54
  It's a science. It's.
• 37:56
  Interesting, because I think you must have to think about getting
• 37:59
  out, getting out the way of Glastonbury, for example.
• 38:01
  Yeah. Because that's.
• 38:02
  But then maybe announcing in the day or weeks after Glastonbury
• 38:06
  has sold out and everyone's who wanted to go and can't go is
• 38:08
  going. Well, I want to go somewhere.
• 38:10
  Yeah, But so there must be come some windows that based on other
• 38:12
  festivals announcements as well. So it must be quite a juggling
• 38:14
  act. Yeah, I mean, it comes back to
• 38:16
  it was coming back to August and all the bands and some of those
• 38:21
  one day festivals which are happening next year, who were
• 38:24
  all having heard some rumour of a big Oasis announcement.
• 38:29
  We're all going well, we can't announce next week because it
• 38:31
  might be the Oasis announcement and there were tours that
• 38:33
  weren't announced for weeks because everyone was thinking
• 38:38
  why is this? Can we not, are they going to
• 38:41
  announce? So they were just on hold for
• 38:43
  ages. But anyway, there you go.
• 38:45
  And thank you very much to our industry friends.
• 38:49
  Thank you team, and thank you, John, for your help with that.
• 38:53
  And thanks for your questions. Keep them coming.
• 38:56
  There'll be more answers in the new year.
• 38:59
  The Price of Music, podcast@gmail.com is the address
• 39:03
  if you'd like to get in touch. And if you'd like to support the
• 39:05
  show, please subscribe to us in your podcast app and give us a
• 39:08
  review. If you get a second.
• 39:10
  You can also, in this season of goodwill, put a small potential
• 39:14
  contribution our way by signing up to be a Price of Music Fan or
• 39:19
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• 39:21
  Details at patreon.com/the Price of Music from both of us.
• 39:27
  Thank you very much for listening in 2024 and all your
• 39:30
  kind comments about the show. We'll be back next year.
• 39:34
  Have a very happy Christmas. Take care of yourselves,
• 39:37
  Cheerio. None.