Latest / Uncomfortable Conversations with Josh Szeps / “Why the Kids Aren’t Alright” with Dr Billy Garvey

Transcript

“Why the Kids Aren’t Alright” with Dr Billy Garvey · Uncomfortable Conversations with Josh Szeps

• 0:00
  Get a humans welcome to the safe space for dangerous ideas, here's a dangerous idea for you.
• 0:08
  How do you take a tiny human, a tiny writhing, mulling, screaming, pooing, farting, vomiting,
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  burping, lizard creature, and turn it into a fully fledged, upstanding, happy, healthy,
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  mentally balanced member of society?
• 0:24
  Parenting, it is tricky.
• 0:27
  And this is one of the most fascinating conversations I've had in a very long time.
• 0:31
  It's one of the longest episodes we've ever done of the show, because I just could not stop
• 0:35
  talking.
• 0:36
  It's totally riveting.
• 0:37
  Dr. Billy Garvey is a developmental pediatrician, he has over 20 years experience working
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  with children.
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  He's a senior specialist at one of the biggest pediatric hospitals in the world, which is
• 0:50
  located here in Australia.
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  So he sees the front line of family dysfunction, how our kids are doing, whether they're doing
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  okay, whether they're not doing okay, and this is really not just a conversation for parents
• 1:03
  or about parents, it's about being human and about the kind of reinforcements that we
• 1:08
  need, the kind of support that we need, what the hell is going on with attention deficit
• 1:13
  in children and the rise in autism, the sort of battle between whether or not we should
• 1:19
  treat each other as snowflakes versus whether we should be disciplinarians towards each
• 1:23
  other, especially towards kids, or whether that's actually in fact a false binary, it touched
• 1:28
  on the cost of living and the difficulties that families are having, making ends meet
• 1:32
  and the availability of healthcare and mental healthcare, the impact of social media on kids.
• 1:38
  This is one of the longest podcasts we've done in a very long time.
• 1:41
  If you're a free subscriber, you'll get well and excessive an hour of an amazing conversation
• 1:46
  behind the paywall, there is also another hour that's also extremely riveting.
• 1:51
  So if you've ever looked for an excuse to go to uncomfortablecompossations.substac.com and
• 1:56
  join the community and upgrade your subscription now would be the time to do it.
• 2:00
  Billy has a podcast of his own, it's called The Pop Culture Parenting Podcast, which has
• 2:05
  become wildly successful in Australia.
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  It's a way for parents to support their kids' development and their well-being, using
• 2:13
  evidence-based techniques in a meaningful and fun and realistic way.
• 2:18
  And Billy now has a new book based on all of his work, his experiences and the podcast.
• 2:23
  It's called Ten Things I Wish You New About Your Child Mental Health.
• 2:28
  Please enjoy as much as I did this conversation with the one the only Dr. Billy Garvey.
• 2:36
  What is your job?
• 2:38
  Yeah, so I'm a developmental pediatrician at slightly, honestly, the one of the biggest
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  tertiary pediatric hospitals in the world.
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  Right.
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  We're not going to name it.
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  People take a guess.
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  Yes, yes.
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  You can guess.
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  Should I say it?
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  No, but...
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  You can say it, right?
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  Yeah, so it's one of those funny things that I think this is the challenge that there's
• 2:59
  a lot of conservative approaches in medicine and things like that.
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  When the reality is that all these people are out there just trying to support their kids
• 3:08
  and looking for information that's helpful, that's relatable.
• 3:10
  So wait, are you saying you don't want to say where you work because you might sound
• 3:14
  like you're throwing them under the bus?
• 3:15
  No, no, it's more because to be 100% honest, they need to, if they're mentioned, they
• 3:21
  want to have the right to veto any media.
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  Oh, right.
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  Don't mention that.
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  Yeah.
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  I don't want to be censored.
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  What am I supposed to be able to talk about?
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  I mean, it's a fascinating book.
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  As the father of six-year-old twins, I'm always thinking about who knows what the
• 3:38
  best way of, I always kind of feel like if we, not to downplay your expertise, I always
• 3:43
  feel like if we knew for sure the perfect way to raise kids, we would all be on the same
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  page about it by now.
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  Well, and there'd be no more anxiety or depression and we would have been in an amazing
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  point.
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  And it's not, there's no perfect way is important, but I don't know, you know, that's,
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  there's also it's not magic how we're meant to raise kids and I think that's the challenge.
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  And when I beat them with a belt, is that good or bad?
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  It's, it's not great.
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  I'm sure it's not great for you, but it's also, it's also not great to be with belt.
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  I should be using some kind of more flexible material when I, yeah, it's all, it's not,
• 4:21
  um, yeah, it's like that thing this is going to hurt me more than you.
• 4:24
  It's like, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah,
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  yeah, but no, it's, it's funny, you say that though, because there actually is lots
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  and lots and decades of evidence of what is likely to increase positive mental health
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  and adult life in how we raise kids.
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  So it's not that it's, I think the problem is though that there's a lot of people out there
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  that are like, this is how I raise my kids.
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  So this is how you should raise your kids.
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  But a lot of what I talk about and I'm, I try and be really clear in my distinction is
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  not my opinion.
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  It's the science.
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  Right.
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  But don't get me wrong.
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  My opinion comes in.
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  Yeah.
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  Yeah.
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  But I know what you mean.
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  So there's a, there's an implementation question where even if you know one's right as you
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  know, if you know one's right as you know one's right as you know one's right as you know
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  one's right as you know one's right as you know one's right as you know one's right as you
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  know one's right as you know one's right as you know one's right as you know one's right
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  as you know one's right as you know one's right as you know one's right as you know one's
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  right as you know one's right as you know one's right as you know one's right as you know
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  one's right as you know one's right as you know one's right as you know one's right as you
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  know one's right as you know one's right as you know one's right as you know one's right
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  as you know one's right as you know one's right as you know one's right as you know one's
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  right as you know one's right as you know one's right as you know one's right as you know
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  one's right as you know one's right as you know one's right as you know one's right as you
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  know one's right as you know one's right as you know one's right as you know one's right
• 5:18
  as you know one's right as you know one's right as you know one's right as you know one's right
• 5:19
  as you know one's right as you know one's right as you know one's right as you know one's right
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  as you know one's right as you know one's right as you know one's right as you know one's right
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  as you know one's right as you know one's right as you know one's right as you know one's right
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  Yes, well yeah, but I know what you mean. So there's a
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  There's an implementation question where even if you know one's right as you do
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  You are a human being who may be sleep deprived and who may be at the end of a long
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  Workday and who may be getting cranky and who may not be implementing the things that you're supposed to
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  but then I also wonder if is there a
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  This may sound a bit elitist but amongst well informed
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  Parents who are on the who've done a lot of reading who've read all the baby books
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  the baby books. Are we are we quibbling to some extent over minutia within a range of
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  generally good parenting? Like where are we? Yeah it's it's actually a really good point.
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  I think that they're probably are like there's such a spread of you know the biggest influence
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  on how you parent and how I parent is how we were parented right now that doesn't mean you copy
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  how you were parented in some ways you'll do the reverse because you'll look back and go that was
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  awful like my dad was never around so I want to be really present or whatever it is but I think
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  you're right there is like so for some families we're moving them a little bit they're already
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  really sensitive and responsive and flexing to the kids and consistent and predictable but there's
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  other families that are like I often get asked by dads especially like high powered high
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  functioning dads why doesn't this kid respect me you know and that's an interesting question to
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  ask because you know it's we shouldn't be aiming for that we should be you know and the way
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  that you get kids to respect you is to respect them to teach them about respect through role modeling
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  to connect with them through the relationship to show them that you have unconditional positive
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  regard and love for them and then you can step towards those things about what are the shared
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  values for us and how we treat each other and when that dad is saying why doesn't my kid respect
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  do you interpret that as being why do they not give greater value and status to the things
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  that I've achieved or do you give that as an interpretation another version of the word
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  respect which is that I do what I say I don't do what I tell them to I think it's the second one
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  I think the reason it like you beautifully articulate the first one because of how bright you are
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  and how well educated you are and all those things but I think a lot of parents are the second one
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  they're like this kid should just do what I say because I said it's and other two connected as
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  a kid like clear to follow the instructions of someone who they think is a good high status
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  person or does it not work that way no so that's what we call like the the judge dread on the law
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  because I said so that's you know authoritarian parenting and it does it is a cold approach to
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  parenting so we have two dynamics in parenting it's responsiveness and demand and the the judge
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  dread has high demand I expect a lot of you but they have no warmth and the problem with lacking
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  warmth is we know and you know this personally I can already get the feel for what you're like with
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  the you know the children that you're raising you have to be warm and you have to be sensitive to
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  their needs you know that doesn't mean there's no boundaries because that's you know no boundaries
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  in cold is neglect right one of the worst things kids go up with you know you've argued that's
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  worse than the judge dread yes I have no warmth and I ask nothing cold and neglectful yeah cold
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  and authoritarian you actually break this down in the book into like four into a kind of matrix
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  where there are like four square you know sub squares of a square if people think about it so there's
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  could you want to run through those yeah there are two variables and each variable interacts with
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  two of the yes one of the other pairs to make for yeah beautiful yeah great so it's warmth and how
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  much I ask of you are the two variables and the one we talked about the authoritarian parenting is
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  because I said so I'm not connecting with you I'm not thinking about your feelings and I expect a
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  lot of you the other one which we've just talked about as well I'm an neglectful parent I don't
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  ask much of you and there's no warmth you know you'll figure it all out on yourself and we've
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  we've shown that it decreases brain growth that's really you know kids do not need to just be fed
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  and kept warm in a roof over their head they need to be loved unconditionally showing their safe
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  and valued the other one which we know we want to be just mates with them and that's warm and I
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  have no demands I expect nothing of the others want you to like me you know there's a lot of
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  parents like that that struggle with that and that's often to do with their self-esteem their self-esteem
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  being insecure as a parent right the thing we're aiming for is I ask a lot of you but I'm warm
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  why I explain to you why you know you have a voice in this relationship that's appropriate you
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  don't get to say we don't go to school tomorrow because you don't feel like it or we're going to
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  have ice cream for dinner but you get to say you know this is what matters to me and this
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  is how I feel about what's happening it's the fascinating distinction because I think a lot of
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  people are either possessed by or worried about a kind of dominant strain of parenting which is
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  very gentle very child-led very empathetic you know you only have to turn on any any 50 plus
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  white bloke on a you know a talk show or like a late night show you know comedy show we'll be
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  talking about how kids are all snowflakes these days because you know oh buddy this no you know did
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  you want that you know back in the old days you know you were told to go to I just saw Jerry
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  Seinfeld and like one of his bits was like that you know the the reading of the bedtime story when
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  I was a kid it was lights out you know I'll tell us the lights out story again dad okay let's
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  fucking out you know that's that's it the like we're we're coddling essentially kids these days but
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  it sounds to me like you're saying that that's there's a confusion between between that and
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  between warmth and sort of having no to imposing no demands on your child yeah definitely it all
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  it so makes me think like yeah that kind of older generation we're too soft like it's wild
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  with mental illness is right through our communities you know like we didn't do it perfectly
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  back then that's why so many of us struggle with mental illness and even now we're not one in
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  32 kids in this country but do we know that that's why if we've got higher rates of of pediatric
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  mental problems now then to what how can you ascribe the harshness of the old way to the
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  mental health you know I think part of it is without getting to just because I feel very
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  comfortable with you know I can tell how high level you think about this but why is it
• 11:35
  committing informing how we parents Jerry Seinfeld can help us learn how to write a successful sitcom
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  possibly one of the best but for some reason we think he should be a voice like I've done 14
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  years at full-term university and I'm still I still struggle to figure this stuff out I don't
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  think he's done a day of study in parenting or something I've got you here and if I get Jerry
• 11:54
  on the show I won't ask him about parenting I won't ask you about stand up but but you you see
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  what I'm saying like there was a heart there was a harsh authoritarian model perhaps that was
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  I mean were boomers harsh I mean the greatest generation were harsh on the boomers but
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  well I mean that's it yeah I mean that's a fascinating discussion because yeah there was you
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  know like the world is pretty hard now like if you think about what's good for the first time ever
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  in my clinic like you know I work publicly not privately we're seeing like I'm seeing families
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  that are raising kids in tents in campgrounds because they can't afford to rent I really saw that
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  like five 10 years ago right now I'm seeing families that are like can't afford to rent so
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  their kids are brushing their teeth and they're saying goodnight to them in the you know the toilet
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  block of the campground and then sending them off to school from there like that's that's I can't
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  imagine doing that that's pretty hard there's a you know the biggest predictor sorry the rates
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  of mental illness is so high and we know that the reason I do what I do I started a long time ago
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  working on an adult mental health ward heartbreaking stuff you know they they will talk about
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  I think I mentioned in the book they're like it's not if that patient will come back when they get
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  discharged from the involuntary psych ward it's when and that's the it's really hard to undo
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  this stuff in adulthood but the reason I love what I do is because there's so much hope I've
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  probably met 15,000 kids and I've never met one that I've gone he's gone or she's never going to
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  come back from this like so because you can do so much for it because we know better now so I
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  think the boomer like the old school generation I was brought up by a single mom who was drowning she
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  worked three drives and used to waitress at night so we wouldn't live in the housing estates she had
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  no capacity to really you know think about how she was parenting and reflect on it and think how
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  my three boys going she was just trying to survive and that's what I'm really interested in like how
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  do we I can tell you the perfect way to do it but I can't do it myself so what I'm trying to find
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  is what's the sweet spot of like what are the important things and I can tell you it's not
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  how many vegetables they eat it's not you know how you know how many words they can read out of
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  the book and stuff like that it's do they feel safe and valued in the world you'll be doing that
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  naturally with your kids but there's a lot of parents out there that are like no they need to tough
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  an up you know or this will be good for them or you know bullying's okay it teaches them resilience
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  it's crazy like it's that's actually not resilience is a great one empathy is a great one people
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  say all these words they don't actually understand what they mean and they don't understand what's
• 14:21
  a normal developmental trajectory of kids to acquire empathy they just kind of go oh you need to be
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  empathetic but in reality a lot of us think you need to be hostile and aggressive like a lot of
• 14:31
  dads raise boys like us you know what I mean they're like stick up for yourself don't let them do
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  that I've got a daughter who you know just is three and she constantly gets pushed past on the
• 14:41
  playground by boys just because even at that age and she just steps aside now the boys want the
• 14:46
  ball off her she just hands it to them she doesn't do that to girls she's three she's already
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  learning that like I'm throwing my partner out of the bus a bit here but um you know my gorgeous
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  daughter looks way too much like me which shows my physique as well but she's a little if you're
• 15:04
  not watching on YouTube because listen to the podcast uh we're talking to someone who has a
• 15:08
  beautiful blonde ginger man yes thank you thank you just but yeah but you know she's like she's
• 15:15
  I swear to God this isn't made up a lot of people like you know make up stuff that kids say
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  but she's like I want to be a boy and and man at least my partner's like how come and she's like
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  boys don't cry and in a joking way and at least it's like well your dad does because I do
• 15:30
  right and I've got like you gotta be careful you don't want to head like I know you're stirring
• 15:35
  me up but if you think it's funny that you're making fun of me big boys cry but it is from this
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  really young age where like I can't show emotions I've got to be tough you know and that's that's
• 15:46
  really scary for boys coming up what what kind of demographic do you see is it right across the
• 15:51
  board and your hardly obviously dads in clinic hardly ever see I mean economically oh yeah so we're
• 15:57
  a public clinic but we know that a lot of families um you know that grew up such as the way that I
• 16:01
  did they don't trust the system to bring their kids to see someone like me in clinic right I'm
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  very lucky like going back to the lie hard section again people walk in and pretty quickly
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  unintimidated by me because they're like you know I don't mean like I we're going to see this
• 16:14
  specialist that this big place and then they roll in and I'll use my story like that's a strategy
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  that I have that's an asset I have that I haven't earned but it can be really disarming for a lot
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  of families that think they're coming in to be judged by yeah right you know I don't mean yeah
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  they're hostile and they're like I see families that you know child protection have said you have
• 16:30
  to come and see this guy right if you want to keep your kids I can imagine what that's like they
• 16:34
  do not want to be there they don't want to be there but you know I will frequently find something
• 16:40
  genuine when they compliment about how they parents and they'll say to me I've no one's ever told
• 16:44
  me how good I'm parenting you know imagine what that's like if you just worried your kids are going
• 16:49
  to get taken off you or you know and that's developmental trauma just echoes through generations
• 16:55
  you know these like you're joking about and I think it was a really appropriate joke
• 16:59
  but a lot of parents are like we're trying to get it published at the moment about 30% of parents
• 17:03
  in Australia are regularly using physical discipline that's really scary because we know it actually
• 17:08
  makes behavioral problems worse thought it was illegal to use physical discipline no it's actually
• 17:13
  not it's where yeah it's determined by the the light when do you cross the line on off for it being
• 17:19
  illegal is determined essentially by the parent so right there's no what the parent is going to hand
• 17:24
  themselves in if they think they think it's crazy it's crazy isn't it but essentially like that
• 17:29
  that there's we are signatories to the UN Declaration of Human Rights around kids like bus we
• 17:36
  we have not you know deemed that parents have the right to raise their kids how they want to
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  but and a lot of parents are doing it like I mentioned this on the podcast I did dad that came in
• 17:45
  it's a fascinating story they called me into like the clinic guys said Billy can you see an extra
• 17:50
  family at the end and I want to go home because I work way too much I never get seen my own kids
• 17:55
  I'm a hypocrite I tell everyone how important it is spend time with your kids and I've got two
• 17:58
  gorgeous kids that I get seen our day my partner works even more than I do so I was like I want to go
• 18:04
  home but this mom came in with four kids one of them is a little baby but the oldest kid was eight
• 18:10
  and he's really playing up my favorite kids to see the ones that are about to get kicked out of school
• 18:15
  this dad comes in huge guy in overalls it's like a blue collar worker I love these dads
• 18:21
  because I drove four cliffs I worked in factories I did all this stuff and so but I couldn't get him
• 18:26
  I tried the whole time to make him engage in the conversation he refused to sit down he stood at
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  the door kids just tore the room apart which is completely fine moms at the edge of her
• 18:35
  tear their schools not letting this kid come back until we see you and he sorted out he's not
• 18:40
  let's come back in because our violin is this dad sat there and didn't say word the whole time
• 18:45
  40 minutes in we're about to wrap up he looks at me and he goes hey doc how come when I hit him
• 18:51
  for days he's scared and he told me into the room and he genuinely didn't understand this is
• 18:56
  he's he's not the father of this kid he genuinely didn't understand why the kid was scared
• 19:02
  around him because that's how he'd been parented and you got this gorgeous little
• 19:07
  your old kid who you know school can't have him there that's his environment at home
• 19:14
  mom's completely overwhelmed and there's this enormous man who every time he steps out of the line
• 19:20
  you know it's scary and people will be listening to that and there's mandated reporting and all
• 19:24
  that stuff but the best chance I've got for that kid is if I can turn that man to a different
• 19:30
  way of supporting him and parenting him and that's what I did what did you say it so we talked
• 19:36
  about co-regulation you know and I did it in a way that he could access and the first step is
• 19:41
  what's co-regulation so co-regulation is like it sounds fluffy but I promise it's nice
• 19:49
  and we me and my podcast we often get dads and they're like you know I had a dad recently
• 19:54
  used this like co-regulation is saved for my marriage it saved my relationship with my kids
• 19:58
  it's essentially just how you connect with people who are becoming distressed and calm them
• 20:03
  for that dad that I mentioned it saw me in clinic the first thing I had to teach him to do
• 20:07
  is to walk away from the kid when he started feeling stressed not walk towards him and I had to
• 20:13
  teach him and help him learn how to calm down himself and then how to go in and try and
• 20:18
  every single behavior is no bad kids in the world I got kicked out of high school so I've got
• 20:22
  a soft spot for kids that happens too there's no bad kids in the world there's always a reason and
• 20:27
  my job is to find it with the families and professionals that support these kids the teachers
• 20:31
  out there that are doing this are amazing and so I needed to find out why that kid was struggling
• 20:35
  so much and there were reasons you obviously can probably think of some of them already the
• 20:39
  house that he's living in he's mum being overwhelmed with mental illness the developmental
• 20:43
  trauma that was actively happening in that house his own severed relationship with his own father
• 20:49
  you know the fact that he was really struggling school didn't have mates he had self-esteem problems
• 20:53
  he didn't feel safe in the world so he used to act up in class because you get out of that
• 20:57
  environment it was predictable you get sent to this principal's office where he felt safe you
• 21:02
  know he's out of the classroom where you didn't have to worry about conflict and kids you know
• 21:07
  acting out and stuff like that so you know it's an encover regulation is about how do you connect
• 21:11
  with kids and help them return to calm it's not how do you get and to listen to your explain why
• 21:15
  they did whatever they did do you want to tell the story about your daughter playing we're
• 21:18
  putting Legos together when she couldn't let go think in the book you tell a good example of
• 21:23
  co-regulation thanks for giving me a bit more detail because I've told so many stories that I can't
• 21:27
  I can't remember which ones are in the book and which ones are so when I came in and so he had
• 21:31
  the book here I was like oh god I can remember what he's gonna ask me about yeah so it's a really
• 21:37
  good example actually because my daughter is a fiery redhead you know and she it's funny the other
• 21:43
  morning I was getting ready running lace and I grabbed my coat off was like six in the morning I
• 21:46
  grabbed my coat off the rack and a broom was there and it hit the ground and made loud noise
• 21:52
  and I was already a bit annoyed and I was like oh god damn it who's put the broom here
• 21:56
  and at the same time analysis like trying to read a book with Evie who's blowing up because the
• 21:59
  page won't turn quick enough and she's like you too so I but the funny thing is I'm actually
• 22:05
  better at understanding Evie's perspective because I'm like that right whereas analysis so calm
• 22:11
  that she kind of can't understand why little things make this gorgeous little toddler blow up
• 22:15
  and toddlers is so egocentric they think the whole world is for them so they can't take any
• 22:20
  perspectives so that's why you never say to a toddler do you know what it feels like to be me
• 22:24
  and we should we shouldn't say no to the me they should never say no to them because no gives no
• 22:28
  guidance we should always think about what you want them doing instead and I do this co-regulation
• 22:33
  I know you're asked for the Lego story but Evie does the Lego story was essentially that she was
• 22:38
  trying to put a Lego piece in and was blowing it because it wouldn't work and getting really angry
• 22:42
  and just throw it and what I wanted her to show what I wanted to learn is that it's okay to be
• 22:46
  I don't want her to push down anger I want her to think anger is okay understand anger and
• 22:51
  find outlets for it the outlet she needed then was to throw Lego across the room but then once
• 22:56
  she was calm again I could teach her the skills she was struggling with which was how to put the
• 23:00
  Lego in properly but I can't teach it to her when she's dysregulated and blowing up and I'll
• 23:04
  make it worse if I try and do that to her but what I do co-regulation with her but it's quite
• 23:09
  funny because and you can do this from about two and a half years of age I do this bit where we
• 23:14
  just like come here I can't go to her I've learned that if I go to her she'll it's too much pressure
• 23:19
  and she escalates or runs off come here and when she comes she's still blowing up and screaming
• 23:25
  and throwing her arms around and then we just do deep breathing but she just does them really
• 23:29
  exaggerate I'm like three breaths and she's like the beautiful thing is it actually kicks her
• 23:34
  parasympathetic nervous system off which is the part of our nervous system that calms us it takes
• 23:39
  us out of fight or flight mode but I'm teaching her really early on and that's the only words I
• 23:44
  use some of the most vulnerable kids are seeing clinic are the bright kids because we tell them stuff
• 23:49
  we explain things why did you do that don't you understand and they can always tell us afterwards
• 23:54
  I'm really sorry my brother I know I said last week I wouldn't do it I didn't you know I promise
• 23:58
  I won't do it again but the next time their brother pisses them off they can't remember that
• 24:02
  conversation right you and I can't either right do you know what I mean like yeah you get you
• 24:07
  bluff about something and then afterwards you feel like an idiot what's interesting that you say
• 24:11
  that you can empathize with your toddlers more than your wife can because you have a short fuse it's
• 24:15
  quite and that's that's eye opening for me because I don't I don't have a short fuse and I can
• 24:18
  angry easily and it's harder for me actually to empathize because I will go in with the intellect
• 24:25
  right like I'm a big brain and a vat you know Josh is going to come in with his ideas about things
• 24:29
  and try to explain to a bloody four year old or a five year old you know why how they should be
• 24:35
  behaving but you're totally right it doesn't work what works is so but just to go back to the
• 24:40
  Lego example so there's so co-regulation could be something like breathing the example you actually
• 24:44
  given the book is that when you draw the throws the Lego block across the room you instead of telling
• 24:49
  a knot to pick up another Lego block and throw it across the room as well and say stupid Lego
• 24:54
  blocks and then you throw another one and then she giggles and throws another one across so you turn
• 24:59
  the the upset or the act out into a game once it's a game then you can have yeah you know a
• 25:06
  de-escalation essentially of her and I don't know if I'm perfect there's lots of time so I'll get
• 25:10
  annoyed at her for throwing the Lego block where that was so you know I'm not going to paint that
• 25:13
  picture in the book but the the point is that I'm trying to connect to the and that's how I connect
• 25:19
  to the whereas if I blow up at her for throwing the Lego and say don't do that she I know she's
• 25:24
  going to disregulate more and then I want to put it not to throw Lego in the future so I've got to
• 25:29
  catch her earlier then I've got to catch her before she starts disregulating right do you know what I
• 25:34
  mean but the reality is she's she was two and a half when I wrote that bitch she's two and a half
• 25:41
  and the two and a half year old that's working really hard to build something with Lego and get
• 25:44
  to know it because it won't get in it's completely developmentally normal for her to get pissed off
• 25:49
  yeah do you know what I mean no I get it but you know so assume you've got a five year old
• 25:57
  yeah who's punching everybody every other kid in class right yeah you see them every day so
• 26:05
  you don't want to brutalize the kid by making putting the fear of God into them that if they
• 26:11
  punch somebody else then they're going to get punched even more because presumably then you're
• 26:14
  just escalating a cycle of violence right yeah totally at the same time people don't want to just
• 26:20
  be like oh a little sweetheart just needs a cuddle come and have some cupcakes totally I 100
• 26:25
  percent agree with that so what is the yeah it's a catch him before he's punched someone so you're
• 26:29
  not going to stop him punching someone next time but we do after he's punched someone you need to
• 26:33
  catch him before he does it understand why he's doing it and guide it to more appropriate behavior
• 26:37
  in the past one of 25 kids with one teacher the lighting so that's the last place you do it well
• 26:43
  so a lot of parents send their kids off to school and say the teacher will figure this out but the
• 26:47
  playground the classroom but maybe the kid's not punching anyone home because the sunshine's
• 26:51
  out of his house at home yeah but you've just spoken to maybe that's the reason you know because
• 26:56
  he gets to do whatever he wants at home and there's no consistency around like boundaries there's
• 27:02
  no expectation of how he will treat others there's no opportunity to succeed with the same age
• 27:06
  peer you classic example say there's no other kid at home you never blaze up but every time he goes
• 27:12
  the playground it pushes in front of everyone he goes to a birthday party fights with everyone
• 27:15
  in the classroom he just pushes everyone down takes toys and snatches them there's a chapter in
• 27:20
  the book is dedicated to that you have to teach them the social skills that they're failing at
• 27:25
  social and emotional development is the biggest predictor of success through life adult mental health
• 27:29
  adult physical health income trajectory through school community participation relationships
• 27:34
  and when you're teaching those rules not to push in front of everybody else at the at the playground
• 27:38
  who are the birthday party is discipline involved in that not so much probably not in a way that
• 27:44
  your listeners might think about discipline what it is is about we are working together on this
• 27:50
  and it's a consequence when we fail at it that we come out of it and we don't unintentionally
• 27:54
  reinforce the unwanted behavior either through a punishment or a reward we come out of it in what
• 27:59
  we're physically right so for example so a lot of it starts at home around pretend play story telling
• 28:06
  so for example my daughter would use to struggle she still does a bit sticking up for herself
• 28:10
  she doesn't struggle with sharing she doesn't struggle with like taking snatching things
• 28:15
  but I didn't put it push her on the playground and say tell that boy no he can't push past you
• 28:20
  that wasn't the first step the first step was her seeing it in pretend play in storytelling that
• 28:25
  we would do around books I bought books that were like around that I have imaginative play with
• 28:30
  her teddies and stuff about you know taking turns and what teddy can say when it's his turn and
• 28:36
  you know someone has pushed in front of them and all that stuff I then show her gently in the way
• 28:41
  that I am with other people and stuff like that so you got to focus on the specific thing it's not
• 28:45
  worth focusing on social skills or we're focusing on emotions it's focusing on the bit that you're
• 28:51
  stuck with and every week I mean clinic I'm trying to figure out what they're stuck with then we
• 28:56
  take her out into the playground but with one other kid when I've got a hundred percent ability
• 29:00
  to support her in it that's why I mean the last place is the classroom yeah playground and I need
• 29:06
  to see that she can succeed the kids that are acting out and lashing out often they struggle so much
• 29:11
  and then when it's the classrooms really rigid like really rigid it's very hard to have any flex
• 29:16
  and teachers have to make it rigid the problem is then the playground is law to the flies you know
• 29:21
  there's no support and it's just all these little kids just have constant opportunity to fail
• 29:25
  on the playground because they snatch things they hit people when they don't get what they want
• 29:29
  and all that stuff what parents need to do is go my kid is really failing socially so that's
• 29:34
  that the kids can get away with that in Kinder but what happens is once they get to prep the other
• 29:38
  kids go I don't want to play with this kid he hits me every time and they'll just exclude him
• 29:43
  that kid will become more angry you know actually just plasso he'll have no social skill growth
• 29:48
  because he has no opportunity to do it if you're trying to get him to learn how to kick a footy
• 29:51
  well he's not he's not going to anyone that's going to kick it to him or catch it when he kicks it
• 29:55
  so he'll never get better at kicking the footy it's the same as social skills so he got a picket and go
• 30:00
  we're working on him letting the other person have a turn first being patient not snatching
• 30:05
  things so we take him with one other kid we bring one other kid to the house we're able to have
• 30:09
  eyes on him and see him and support him catch him early when he's about to stuff it up and guide
• 30:13
  him to what he should be doing well supported way then we go to the playground then we do two
• 30:18
  kids at a time then we step back a bit on the playground and watch how it does it and then the last
• 30:22
  place is when we have absolutely no eyes on him at all and he's in law of the flies playground and
• 30:27
  we just make sure the teacher tells us if he starts going off track abuse yeah right and then we come
• 30:31
  back in honest the biggest reason kids fail at this stuff is the developmental stretches too far
• 30:35
  or there's not enough consistent support around them what are the developmental stretches too far
• 30:40
  so for example like the kid who you know the bright kid or the kid who often kids it's funny
• 30:46
  we've talked about bright kids a lot of these kids are really far behind in their language
• 30:49
  development so they can't communicate what their needs are and boys classically will be worse
• 30:53
  than girls in this so they don't have the ability to communicate hey I'm getting annoyed
• 30:58
  or I want that thing into mine so they just take it and so what we're saying is Billy you can't
• 31:05
  just take it come up and ask and tell the teacher that it's actually yours and the kids never
• 31:10
  going to be able to do that do you know what I mean because they can't say this is pissing me off
• 31:13
  that kid's got the ball that I want I'm going to now go over to the teacher tap them on the shoulder
• 31:18
  say hey miss can you please come and help me do you know what I mean it's great yeah it's not
• 31:22
  going to happen so we've got to realize that that's beyond that kid at this stage yeah it's the same
• 31:26
  as like five to ten percent of kids have ADHD and we will expect those kids to just be able to
• 31:32
  focus for 45 minutes when they can't for five minutes you know and we just go I just
• 31:37
  Medicaid and Billy because we want and I'm like well no like the medication might help but we
• 31:42
  actually need to teach them to get them to 45 minutes like you do exercise stuff the stuff you
• 31:48
  do now you couldn't do when you started whenever it was you had to build up to it and you have to
• 31:53
  build up to your attention capacity you have to build up to your empathy have to build up to your
• 31:57
  emotional regulation we just expect our cuz you're nine and all the other nine year olds around
• 32:02
  you can do it I'll just have one chat with you and tell you to do it or I'll put consequences
• 32:07
  around your punishments if you don't whereas you have to teach the kid how to do it in a stepwise
• 32:12
  fashion right the thing about reinforcing behavior is they need to succeed quickly so you can praise
• 32:17
  it and praise works but praise works when it's specific and it's immediate so so what's the
• 32:23
  developmentally appropriate next step in the scenario that you just cited where you've got a kid
• 32:28
  who's who has a tendency to take you know the or someone's taken that kid's ball for example or
• 32:33
  that kid's toy and that kid is is about to lash out right so let's remove it from the classroom
• 32:38
  situation which as you say is too late let's assume that it's in a home environment what are you
• 32:42
  doing that's developmentally appropriate to that kid who doesn't have the language capacity to
• 32:46
  articulate what his frustration is to prevent that yeah totally so if it's a language thing you've
• 32:52
  got to help him with early signs of language remembering most of it's not verbal about how does
• 32:57
  he distress show others that he's distressed the other thing isn't it's a good example is like
• 33:02
  perspective taking so kids have this huge jump from about three to five in perspective taking
• 33:08
  three three year olds can't understand that someone else has an experience different to theirs
• 33:12
  five year olds can so the three year olds we shouldn't ask that of them the five year old six
• 33:17
  year old seven year olds we should expect that of them but if they can't we need to teach them how
• 33:21
  and we teach them how outside of moments of distress we don't say when they want the ball hey but
• 33:27
  wonder what that girl's experience isn't a kid blowing up like just you know raging internally
• 33:31
  and we're like Billy what do you think Samantha feels about the ball coming out of her hands don't
• 33:36
  give a shit yeah we started in calm and we show them we read books to them and say why do you think
• 33:41
  the boy is happy that's in the picture oh because he's taking the dog for a walk why do you think the
• 33:45
  girl is sad oh because this has happened to them and that's really early when they're calm they've
• 33:50
  got a hundred percent support they can learn to understand some of these kids all aren't really
• 33:54
  struggle with facial expressions they don't look they don't take it in like this is a classic
• 33:58
  feature of autism that people talk about the reason it's actually sustained eye contact not
• 34:03
  fleeting eye contact because people will say I know they have fleeting eye contact but I can
• 34:07
  sit here and watch you and I can know whether I'm landing this and explaining it well or there's
• 34:12
  been a couple of moments I haven't and it's not because you told me I've known I need to explain
• 34:16
  it a bit better because I can tell the slight changes in your facial expression in your body
• 34:20
  posture means I'm not picking it you're not picking it up as well I wish you were yes and I can
• 34:24
  adjust that takes a long time for kids to learn that but none of its language right do you know what I
• 34:30
  mean yeah yeah so storytelling seems to be the main story telling pretend play pretend play a lot
• 34:34
  of social and emotional development is learned around pretend play which happens two to three years
• 34:39
  of age they have this big jump where they pretend that they're a month you know they carry the
• 34:43
  dollar out yeah a lot of kids like you'll have so many people that are like sometimes my kid I don't
• 34:48
  know if your kids do this pretend to be a little baby you know and they're just going back to that
• 34:53
  moment in your time and testing it as a role in role playing sometimes let me let me just
• 34:58
  drop there about about pretend play because there's an interesting debate that's also going on
• 35:02
  about you know Jonathan Hight is blowing up the moment for his work on what social media and
• 35:09
  you know the algorithms are doing to young people brains for example and there's this movement
• 35:14
  for free range kids where the idea is like we're spending way too much time molly coddling children
• 35:20
  and intervening in their play and trying to instruct them about the right way to do things when
• 35:25
  actually the best thing that any mammal including homosapiens can do is to get out there and roll around
• 35:31
  in the mud and have fights and establish hierarchies and create empires in their tree houses and
• 35:37
  you know and bully each other and negotiate and try to figure out the messy reality of being a
• 35:42
  human being so that when they grow up there then they're thick skinned and you know and resilient
• 35:48
  and so on so there is a there's a part of me and my fellow parents who think oh you know we'll just
• 35:55
  let them go at it and you know if they if one of them is is a little shit then he's going to get
• 35:59
  whacked in the head by somebody and he's not going to be a little shit anymore yeah that seems to
• 36:05
  somewhat counter to maybe the spirit of what you were saying or am I misunderstanding?
• 36:09
  No I mean there's two really important things that you've raised there there's the social media
• 36:13
  bit and you know what he's been talking about in that context yeah let's park that for a moment
• 36:18
  yeah cool yeah and then there's the conversation yeah which is equally valuable about like we should
• 36:23
  just let kids go out and figure this out on their own yeah yeah that like latch key kid which was
• 36:28
  the classic like you know just come back on its dark yeah a lot of street lights come on the problem
• 36:32
  is like a lot of kids really struggling that environment for two reasons they might justifiably
• 36:38
  get the consequence but how do we know the other nine year old knows what's right and wrong and
• 36:43
  has appropriate moral development and thinks this is what fairness looks like in play they don't
• 36:49
  and especially kids that fail at it they find each other like I see a lot of kids that have been
• 36:53
  kicked out of school and kids wants it mates so much I've got one kid that I think I talk about
• 36:58
  in the book but he he's been kicked out of like grade three or something and his only mate is a
• 37:04
  17 year old who hasn't been a school for ages and lives on the housing estates and is doing really
• 37:08
  anti social behavior like theft carrying around a knife all that stuff that's that kid's role model
• 37:14
  you know and he wants a connection so much that he's not going to look and go maybe we shouldn't be
• 37:18
  robbing places or maybe we shouldn't be breaking windows he's like this is normal behavior and you
• 37:23
  can't put the weight on the 17 year old of raising it just like you can't put the nine year old who's
• 37:28
  you know the alpha of the pack running around the park to know exactly how to guide kids that are
• 37:34
  struggling like I've said I mean I don't think the the claim is that those people would guide them I
• 37:38
  think the and of course if there's a violent dysfunctional anti social 17 year old who's in your
• 37:44
  child's peer group then maybe you maybe bring them inside a little earlier when you know that
• 37:49
  that person that individual is around but I don't think that that negates necessarily the validity
• 37:56
  of the claim that in general children sorting things out for themselves no and you're 100%
• 38:01
  rise intentionally sensationally went to the extreme but you're right but my purpose of doing
• 38:07
  that is that all of them are guiding them like and it's not that they're instructing each other
• 38:13
  it's the idea would be that there is an organic kind of invisible hand of socialization that
• 38:19
  takes place through the interplay of different egos and different strengths and different
• 38:22
  failings and different you know idiosyncrasies between the kids yeah totally the difficulty is one
• 38:28
  in seven kids you know including before primary school and primary school like 14% of those kids
• 38:34
  have a mental illness and so the challenge is that every group every classroom every little social
• 38:40
  running around the woods like I wish I wish I could do that for my daughters like so I'm not trying
• 38:44
  to say keep the men have eyes on them all the time and all that stuff I actually think that's
• 38:48
  really important free range players are really important I 100% agree with that the problem is that
• 38:54
  you know you've got to have eyes on how your kids going and that's clinical mental illness you know
• 39:00
  one in seven what I do well let's get to that so I mean I guess I guess my takeaway from this is
• 39:06
  curate the people who the kids are doing the free range yeah yeah exactly and also have a
• 39:11
  relationship with their parents have an idea of how they're going you have eyes on them sometimes
• 39:15
  but a hundred percent I ran around like I was you know breaking in the shopping centers and skateboarding
• 39:19
  through the car box and I wasn't breaking the shopping centers but I was getting up to me yeah
• 39:25
  or totally yeah but you know why because I don't know this about you but I suspect you just had
• 39:30
  good parents yeah they weren't they weren't over protective they weren't overly worried they could
• 39:35
  go out with my mates and you know go to the park and come back three hours later and they probably
• 39:41
  like when you went off you went as interested you sleep what started playing up you know you became
• 39:46
  more easily agitated if this happened it might never happen to you but if you became more easily
• 39:50
  agitated you went off your food you were sleeping more waking up through the night or your teacher was
• 39:55
  saying he's not as interested in classes you used to be they would have come in around you yes
• 40:00
  and gone cool I've what's going on with Josh yes let's have a chat about and all that stuff yeah
• 40:05
  I can tell you by my I get paid because so many kids days in happening yeah like people just
• 40:11
  don't know what the early signs are they don't spot them so that that one in seven that's clinical
• 40:16
  yes I was talking about the catch you can tell these kids earlier stats then as well so
• 40:22
  there is some skepticism I think amongst some people are about you know the diagnosis there's
• 40:30
  a popular book by an American journalist Abigail Shrier who is writing that the problem isn't
• 40:36
  with kids the problem is with the medical establishment and over diagnosing things we've seen in
• 40:41
  this country when the national disability insurance scheme came in there was a a sudden and
• 40:47
  market spike in attention deficit disorders especially young boys when it suddenly became free
• 40:52
  to have them treated for it that may have been because they weren't being diagnosed properly before
• 40:57
  but I've spoken to the you know some of the leading people in the in the autism
• 41:01
  treatment industry here who say oh there's no doubt that some of that is just an inflation of
• 41:06
  over diagnosis because people who are unable to access for you know assistance that they should be
• 41:13
  they really should be able to get even in the absence of a mental health condition are getting
• 41:18
  the mental health condition so that they can get the resources that they're not able to have
• 41:22
  because they're struggling in some other way so is it really the case that one in seven
• 41:28
  children like what does it mean to say yeah it's a great question and thanks God we did say
• 41:34
  where I worked because we can move you know I really open discussion about this because it's
• 41:38
  such a good point and this is you know it's amazing that you're thinking about this at such a high
• 41:43
  level because you're you're rice if you've got if you've got a kid who's really struggling and
• 41:48
  you don't have the money to get them support and the only way you can get them support is a
• 41:52
  diagnosis you can imagine you're going to push pretty hard for that diagnosis do you know what I
• 41:56
  mean and I'm not even I'm not even saying whether the diagnosis is there or not and I will only
• 42:01
  ever diagnose a kid if it's going to help that kid in front of me and it's accuracy you know we
• 42:07
  met a lot of kids but that's always the same thing for me they are but I completely understand
• 42:13
  what you're saying what if it's not accurate but it's definitely going to help the kid when you
• 42:16
  want to help the kid yeah so then I might be tempted if I didn't practice the way that I do to
• 42:20
  say this kid's got autism because I know he needs help but we have challenges like that I will
• 42:25
  see kids almost every week where the parents are like can we say it's autism because that's the
• 42:30
  only way we're going to get occupational therapy and speech pathology and all that stuff and I need
• 42:34
  to find another way but I also strongly advocate for a non-diagnosis based you know support system
• 42:42
  that says what does this kid need let's give him that I 100% agree with that because yeah what we've
• 42:47
  found in a system is that it doesn't perfectly match to what the kids needs are some kids get
• 42:53
  heaps of therapy and heaps of money we see kids that are really really struggling who either get
• 42:57
  nothing at all from NDIS or small amounts and that can be really hard this is just really complex
• 43:03
  challenging stuff you know how to figure out what the needs of a kid are also I see heaps of kids
• 43:08
  that are either on a medication or get therapy or whatever and I'll say to parents is it helping
• 43:14
  and they go we don't know yeah and I'm like there's got to be a metric of whether this is you know
• 43:19
  you're on a diabetes clinic you watch and go how's your diabetes going we can measure it and say
• 43:24
  yeah this is the right treatment for you it's really hard with this stuff to be like how's this
• 43:28
  kid going into development it's especially problematic I would imagine with children because in a
• 43:33
  pediatric setting you're talking about development which happened like the child is changing anyway
• 43:38
  like your cholesterol if you're a 54 year old person then your cholesterol is going to be stable
• 43:44
  if you're eating exactly the same things and doing the exact same amount of exercise then you
• 43:49
  then you go on to a lipid you know the cholesterol either works or it doesn't work but the difference
• 43:53
  between a five year old and a seven year old is massive anyway even if you don't include the
• 43:59
  variable of the drug right so I can understand from the parents perspective it's like well we
• 44:06
  didn't get to inhabit an alternative universe in which the kid didn't take the drug in order to
• 44:11
  compare that scenario with the one where he's on the drug so we don't know yeah so you said a
• 44:17
  few amazing things like the simplest one to answer is the medication when we are medicating and I
• 44:22
  spend more time taking kids off medication than putting them on the medication has has a specific
• 44:27
  thing it's targeting too many times I'll ask that question I'll go what are they taking a medication
• 44:32
  for and they go ADHD I'm like no that's way too vague it's got to be because our morning routine is
• 44:37
  so dysfunctional his working memory is so poor right he can't hold multi step information and our
• 44:42
  family melts down every single morning because of how dysfunctional our little boy is ash performing
• 44:49
  a task when we've given it to him right or he's so destructible in the classroom that he can't
• 44:54
  hold focus some more than five minutes his learning is being really destructively impacted where he's
• 45:00
  two years behind and he's self-esteem is fractured because he looks around and everyone else is
• 45:04
  able to complete his task and he's not those is that though that's the kind of specific target that
• 45:08
  I need and then the medication has to prove that it helps to continue it doesn't continue because
• 45:14
  all these medications have you know consequences side effects we don't want kid on medication so
• 45:20
  yeah it's it's really important the other thing that is you know I've got to explain this well
• 45:26
  you're right but we actually have an understanding of normal development it's just social and emotional
• 45:32
  is much harder than say gross mode or speech like gross mode are you know you've seen this the kids
• 45:38
  like start rolling then they can sit up and then they can crawl then they can cruise and take
• 45:42
  steps holding on to something then they can step independently and they can run then they can jump
• 45:46
  then they can ride a bike then they can do all that stuff speeches the same you know they make sounds
• 45:51
  they stop smile at you first few months then maybe by year they're putting a word together two
• 45:56
  years 50 to 200 words two words sentences three years four years we know what the steps are
• 46:02
  we know the same steps for social and emotional development it's just harder to look at it like that
• 46:07
  denied I mean yeah so we can look at it and say in social and emotional development this seven
• 46:12
  year olds should be doing better than this and an even easier way to think about it is all kids
• 46:18
  most of the time should be experiencing success like you've got little kids they should be rolling
• 46:23
  in and enjoying school they should be active participants in that community they should be strengthening
• 46:29
  that community they should feel proud of the things they achieve there that doesn't mean they
• 46:34
  should get a certificate everything they do they should be pat on the back every time they do
• 46:38
  something people should look around and go what matters to this kid what's important to them and
• 46:42
  little kids this is the same cool this is what they're working on this is what they're focusing on
• 46:47
  that's genuinely support them and get them better at it and then reinforce them when they do
• 46:51
  not give every single kid a prize right you know what I mean it's an important bit of it and
• 46:56
  I see way too many kids that I just he just doesn't like school schools another you know I see a kid
• 47:02
  every week it's still I've gone back to schools into the pandemic wow so yeah you know like there's
• 47:07
  lots of kids that have just anxieties overwhelmed them they're really struggling and the first step to
• 47:14
  get those kids back in schools teach them emotional regulation for the anxiety they experience the
• 47:19
  second step is they're backing that community having a positive experience they still haven't
• 47:23
  gone back to schools I mean unlike the United States the schools were not closed for tremendously
• 47:29
  long periods of time you are in Victoria will have the worst of the lockdowns and the longest
• 47:34
  of the school closures yeah um I mean how long was that in in total the kids were out of school
• 47:40
  a long long time yeah but it's also nine months or something yeah there was months there was
• 47:45
  multiple times but yeah and it was years it's now been years yeah totally but you know there was
• 47:50
  a collective anxiety and those kids were probably you know quite significantly anxious already
• 47:55
  and then this collective anxiety because what what happened was the world became so much smaller
• 48:00
  like I don't want to talk too much about the pandemic but the world became so much smaller we
• 48:03
  were in some ways there's an interesting oh totally interesting fact we'll take this huge impact
• 48:08
  on all the other stuff we're talking about right a lot of us for a long time didn't have opportunity
• 48:12
  to socialize yeah and be effective and it's the same thing about like you know I'm I'm qualified on
• 48:19
  childhood development so I don't want to stray out of that but you have to have to have opportunity
• 48:23
  to get better at things as an aside uh very wise made of mine he's a psychologist I was having
• 48:29
  lunch with him the other day he said isn't it funny that we all went through the most traumatizing
• 48:35
  cataclysmic global event in generations and when was the last time you heard anyone talk about it
• 48:44
  or talk about it we talk about the politics of it we talk about vaccines we talk about the lockdown
• 48:48
  we talk about strategies we talk about policy we talk about the arguments the culture war stuff right
• 48:54
  when nobody talks about what it was like yeah you're so right like we do with educators and
• 49:02
  stuff educators are still burnt out right and I to be honest I I think what I'm saying now in
• 49:08
  the community I haven't seen it this bad ever I reckon like what's going on and I think the
• 49:12
  pandemic is in part to blame for that right but also you're 100% right I don't know what I was like
• 49:17
  for you I remember I was working and I couldn't 100% be in my work back then until I knew what the
• 49:23
  number was for the day you know it's wild I was just I would and that's anxiety I was so fearful
• 49:28
  about what that number be this 11 a.m. press conference where the premier would come out and
• 49:32
  we're in different premieres because we're in different states but you know they'd come out and
• 49:35
  they'd announce the number numbers look I I was collecting anxiety yeah I was working at the
• 49:40
  public broadcaster at the time so I had a I was wearing a different hat um but it was a horrendous I
• 49:46
  mean I just I just think it's an interesting psychological phenomenon to note that nobody
• 49:50
  talks about the psychological experience or anxiety or trauma or depression really of what we all
• 49:57
  know that we went through yeah you're right like obviously I talk most book like that's behind
• 50:02
  us it's PTSD or something like I want to touch it I don't want to hear about it again anyway that's
• 50:06
  an aside um so there does seem to be this sort of I think confusion or disagreement at the moment
• 50:14
  about self-esteem versus the sunshineing out of you know I mentioned Britain you know
• 50:20
  so facetiously the sun shines out of their ass the kids these days and I wrestle with this
• 50:30
  the giving everyone in the class a certificate or a prize like every every kid is great you know
• 50:36
  that as you said before there's no such thing as a bad kid we want a bolster their self-esteem
• 50:42
  at the same time there's this dramatic increase in mental health problems I know that in your
• 50:49
  clinic you're seeing the worst of it so it's often correlated to you know an economic situation as
• 50:56
  you mentioned someone might be living out of a tent in a car park or something or in a campground
• 50:59
  that that's obviously um an anomalous situation fortunately the majority of parents are struggling
• 51:07
  with this battle between how do I make my kids feel self-empowered and and full of self-esteem at
• 51:15
  the same time as I don't find myself complicit in maybe a kind of a fadish fashion of the past
• 51:24
  generation or so that may be contributing to the mental health crisis in young people through
• 51:30
  a lack of structure a lack of leadership a lack of discipline or whatever that might be
• 51:36
  yeah it's such a good question and I you know I try and land the distinction because I completely
• 51:42
  agree like with what you're saying that vulnerability of like you know every kid should feel like
• 51:48
  they're the best in a world and then they go out into the real world and they fall down because
• 51:53
  a boss says you know you fight because you didn't do it now like hang on a second I've been told
• 51:57
  that whatever I do is perfect yeah so definitely but it's not a it's not a fad like this is decades
• 52:04
  and decades of research in longitudinal studies of like this stuff that's helpful what lands kids
• 52:09
  well you know we're talking about attachment well your stuff maybe based on that but there are
• 52:14
  also fads 100% yes because because you know the need for understanding this better is so
• 52:23
  grace that people are filling it from a like I can make money off this perspective yeah I mean
• 52:28
  I can sell an all-size and yeah go on Tik Tok and you can see all kinds of very wise seeming
• 52:32
  mummies telling you how you should be yeah yeah and it can it might be it might sound it might rhyme
• 52:39
  with what you're saying but it might actually completely miss the point yeah well even self-esteem
• 52:44
  like people don't really understand self-esteem so a lot of people talk about it but we are not
• 52:50
  aiming for high self-esteem we're aiming for secure self-esteem does that distinction the difference
• 52:55
  so the high self-esteem you would have gone through high school with people like this they like
• 52:59
  think they're amazing but they're fragile in their self-esteem you know someone criticizes them
• 53:04
  or hey on the footy jock my whole identity is caught up in that they go out in the real world
• 53:10
  and no one cares anymore that they're the captain of the year 1240 team and they will be hostile
• 53:16
  or aggressive or withdraw or whatever or that shapes their entire identity and that's a fragility
• 53:22
  in their self-esteem a secure self-esteem is I am trying to grow as a person I'm trying to get
• 53:28
  better at certain things but I can I'm open to criticism I don't tie my identity into how people
• 53:34
  respond to me there are people's opinions that I value and people's opinions that I can listen to
• 53:39
  and not take on the weight of right struggle with this stuff I put myself out in the public I get
• 53:44
  all this like people say your podcast great we really love what you're doing all this stuff but if
• 53:48
  there's someone who's like I can't believe you said physical discipline's bad I'm like I damn
• 53:53
  my stuff stuff explaining is and I take it on that's a fragility within me the way that we build
• 53:58
  self-esteem is we we make sure we separate the behavior from who the kid is in both ways so we've
• 54:04
  talked a lot about bad kids and we want to say you're better than that not you're a naughty kid I
• 54:09
  know you can do better than that I'm going to help you do better than that yeah bully other kids
• 54:14
  tell a teacher to get stuffed whatever our conversation with a mom the other day who's like
• 54:21
  grade three has made the teacher cry because he was playing up and then he's said to the teacher
• 54:27
  the teacher's like this I'm finding it so hard with your behavior and he said well maybe
• 54:31
  you should quit then because you're not a very good teacher you know what I mean and so the parents
• 54:35
  like I can't believe my son has said that to a teacher but then you need to go you're better than
• 54:41
  that's you are a better person than that's and we're going to work on this together and I'm going
• 54:45
  to help you together demonstrate to people how caring and compassionate you can be to others
• 54:51
  the same is true though for the kid who's an amazing footy player and I meet those kids every day
• 54:57
  almost that are the gun at something and it's their entire identity I've got a kid that I'm seeing
• 55:03
  at the moment who's at a national level athletically you know what he does in class I said do you
• 55:08
  have any mates he's like there's one group he's in high school he's like there's one group that
• 55:13
  will let me stand with them at lunchtime if I don't say anything doesn't have a single friend
• 55:18
  but his whole identity is caught up in the sport that he's good at right so he's really vulnerable
• 55:26
  that that will be all of who he is and if he stops doing that injures himself fails at it
• 55:32
  doesn't win his whole world crashes down and so once again even when they're doing really well at
• 55:39
  something we need to separate who they are from what they do from a very young age like I think
• 55:44
  we make them a steak and hopefully you can reflect on this and be you know because you're
• 55:50
  great at talking about this you worry about risk taking in teenage years that you go I'll have
• 55:55
  that conversation the first time they're going to a party and I think that there's going to be alcohol
• 56:00
  there I'll sit them down before they go and go Billy and I might there might be a beer there
• 56:07
  you know what I mean but we actually own that now through healthy risk taking kids should be going
• 56:12
  out and having risk for you know events climbing trees and falling down and doing all that stuff
• 56:17
  that's how you learn risk taking I get my children drunk on beer every night and they're only six
• 56:22
  I'm glad I'm doing the right thing just sips though yeah that's interesting because that goes
• 56:30
  back to your thing about like free range stuff yeah they have to be out there falling down yeah
• 56:34
  but they also have to know they can come back to you and say I fell down yes and it's safe yeah
• 56:39
  whether it's physically or socially or emotionally right right I told the parent this this kid
• 56:46
  said this to me and all that stuff and you can be disappointed in them but you guys separate who
• 56:50
  you are from what you did and my role now is to help you get better artists so just on the question
• 56:56
  of like discipline and I am I can totally understand it from your perspective like the
• 57:03
  the problem case that the great problem cases that end up winding their way through the system
• 57:08
  and making it to you are a particular there isn't asked about a demographic earlier is I'm trying
• 57:14
  to understand what proportion of society as a whole believes in the dysfunctional models of
• 57:22
  parenting that you may see disproportionately represented in your clinic right because my personal
• 57:28
  experience and this comes back to also issues about I mean we don't have to go into male violence
• 57:34
  against women and like sexist stereotypes and sexism among guys and everything sometimes I
• 57:39
  feel like the the national conversation is completely out of step with what my personal experience
• 57:44
  and my peer group and my colleagues in the elite media are all on the same page as and I can't
• 57:51
  tell if I'm in a bubble or a silo or someone else is right so when you talk about your daughter
• 57:56
  you're like getting pushed aside and and copying it my daughter is an absolute barn stormer and she
• 58:03
  will like she will get exactly what she wants she runs our household yeah um all of my female peers
• 58:12
  when we're talking privately is sort of like I mean I don't feel like I'm you know I say what
• 58:16
  I want to whenever I want to and I think it's all a bit of a bit of a bit of a beat up about like
• 58:20
  man spreading or whatever people more man's planning or something like that um and yet there's
• 58:26
  obviously still very old fashioned and antiquated ideas out there about sex and gender that a lot
• 58:31
  of people hold similarly in the parenting space the idea that it would ever be okay it's a hit a
• 58:38
  trial or even to like that it's a good thing to lose it at a trial even if you're not physically
• 58:44
  violent that is completely absent from anyone I know it's absent from anything that you will hear
• 58:53
  on the TV from on the ABC in the Guardian and yeah it's a really it's a really good point yeah
• 59:01
  we have we have it's almost like racism or something like we've we've all like racism still exists
• 59:06
  right but we in polite society have absolutely conclusively repudiated the idea of racism we now
• 59:13
  regard it as being totally taboo and in my parenting circles like the oh god he's got a tough
• 59:19
  and up he needs to know how the world works make give him a little slap with the back of the hand
• 59:23
  and kick him out the door and then I'll be that'll tough him up non-existent yeah I I think there's
• 59:30
  a few things in that I think that you you're probably quite unique because like and also I think
• 59:37
  it's very hard to have conversations socially about losing it at your kids do you know what I mean
• 59:42
  like I'm done it but but what I mean is I don't regard it as being virtuous what do you mean like
• 59:48
  well a culture in which a culture that would say what the kid really needs is for you to lose it at
• 59:54
  them like that that's a good thing oh totally what I'm saying no no so it actually so yeah yeah
• 1:00:00
  it's not saying that we don't do it I'm not saying I'm not I'm not I'm also not saying we shouldn't
• 1:00:04
  do it because kids need to see that we are not perfect at controlling our emotions as well right
• 1:00:09
  and often the recovery is in us it's just if you're doing it consistently and you know that's
• 1:00:14
  what's destructive and that's on the first childhood experience hassle dysfunction is an
• 1:00:18
  adverse childhood experience which is divorce you know aggression um you know separation of
• 1:00:25
  parents all that stuff is actually pretty prominent through every demographic of society in Australia
• 1:00:31
  do you know what I mean it's not just an abuse and neglect happens in them as well it's just that
• 1:00:35
  if you're completely overwhelmed with your own developmental trauma because your parent did that
• 1:00:40
  to you or you've got postnatal depression because that's 20 to 30% of mums you know those things
• 1:00:46
  mean that it's very very hard and you and I I'm sure you think this we're probably pretty good
• 1:00:53
  parents it's not because we're better than anyone else it's just that we're lucky to be in circumstances
• 1:00:58
  where we don't have a lot of the weight on our shoulders that other people do of mental illness
• 1:01:03
  financial insecurity a partner that's abusive you know looking after someone with a drug
• 1:01:09
  abuse problem like do you know what I mean and your your point about raising girls what we know in
• 1:01:16
  the evidence about the not the authoritarian but the authoritative the high demand and warmth
• 1:01:22
  what we know is for girls it elevates them where they can self-advocate what we know for boys
• 1:01:29
  is it makes them more compassionate and so I think if your your daughter sounds amazing but I
• 1:01:34
  imagine if she was being a bit heartless and unfair or bullying other kids and stuff you would
• 1:01:40
  shift yes you know you wouldn't be so proud of how she just gets what she wants since she runs
• 1:01:45
  the household if the teacher tapped you on the shoulder and said she's bullying the other girls
• 1:01:48
  no that's right or she's isolated one kid out and that kid is really struggling doesn't want to
• 1:01:53
  come to school anymore because your daughter is so confident that she's got all the other kids
• 1:01:57
  to like and this happens I worked in childcare for six years like this happens the girls will do this
• 1:02:02
  you would just and I think you would be you'd have to be receptive to the educator coming to you
• 1:02:07
  and saying hey Josh oh definitely lots of parents wouldn't they'd be proud especially of their
• 1:02:13
  sons because of how aggressive they are and they get what they want and they do what they want
• 1:02:18
  and those educators have a very hard time is it true that there are lots of parents like that
• 1:02:22
  I mean I know there are lots of parents like that in your clinic no this is not just my clinic my
• 1:02:26
  PhD looked at primary schools and building a capacity of educators there are lots of parents who if
• 1:02:32
  the if the teacher said your son is being a bully would be like good for him oh yeah teachers
• 1:02:38
  one of the hardest things that teachers do is you know I'm going over the states to learn this
• 1:02:44
  from like one of the hardest things teachers do is they're trying to guide who the kid is not who
• 1:02:50
  the parent wants the kid to be does that make sense like a lot of parents have a preconceived idea
• 1:02:56
  of who their kid's going to be and the kid's struggling to handle we're talking about two
• 1:03:00
  different things here because at that point that you're making may actually play to the reverse of
• 1:03:04
  what I was saying in the sense that this the the the Jerry Seinfeld like old white man cliche of like
• 1:03:11
  when I was a kid you know we weren't molly coddled right let's take that as a kind of a worldview
• 1:03:16
  that kids should be kids need to toughen up part of that worldview also says when the teacher says
• 1:03:21
  your kid is a little shit trust the teacher don't go into bat fierce stupid little shit like you
• 1:03:26
  know you just trust the teacher that adults should have a grown up front of discipline against the
• 1:03:31
  child and that the child needs to be kind of you know knocked into place essentially um so it may be
• 1:03:37
  the case that the struggle that teachers currently have of trying to convince parents and work with
• 1:03:44
  parents about the problems in their children is not is not because or not just because those
• 1:03:51
  parents have some idea that bullying is good or that being tough is really good or that their
• 1:03:56
  child should get a free pass for that for that way but because parents are so so going into bat
• 1:04:02
  for their kid so have the back of their kid more than they should actually that they're sort of
• 1:04:07
  betraying the teacher and betraying discipline and betraying what's good for the kids because they're
• 1:04:11
  a little snowflake no not not so much betraying but it goes back to the Jerry Seinfeld era like
• 1:04:18
  you know when when a teacher came to my mum it was always bad news you know and it was consequences
• 1:04:26
  and stuff and my mum fiercely advocated for me you know like and stuck up you know stood up for me
• 1:04:32
  and all that stuff but the I think the challenge is and yes I have what you have I mean
• 1:04:38
  well that's it yes that is very personal but I'm very happy to talk about it question of um
• 1:04:43
  yeah I to be honest me getting kicked I got kicked out of high school and every school I went to
• 1:04:49
  to try and get in when they spoke to the school I went to said don't take him what were you kicked
• 1:04:54
  out for a long history of being against an authority and talking back to teachers and being hostile
• 1:05:02
  and aggressive and all of those things and I went to the only school that would take me the last
• 1:05:08
  school before I was going to have to finish um schooling through like you know the TAFE kind of
• 1:05:12
  thing back then um they just said you know what you don't submit it you just get zero we'll tell
• 1:05:19
  you once when it's two it's up to you to remember you don't want to participate in class that's
• 1:05:23
  up to you you know we want you to and but you'll decide whether you do or not and you know
• 1:05:29
  and it worked for me it was just I didn't have anyone to fight there's no one to fight there's
• 1:05:35
  no one to for me to fight there's no authority figure for me to fight at that school and what did
• 1:05:38
  you feel about that I felt safe yeah I felt safe but you know one of the hardest experiences
• 1:05:46
  sorry just can't resist talking about myself one of the hardest experiences and this talks to a
• 1:05:50
  lot of the younger kids was going into that new school like the last term of year 11 and having
• 1:05:56
  the walk over not knowing a single person and say hi to the social group you know because that was
• 1:06:03
  that will always stick with me and that wasn't like you know experience bullying of being
• 1:06:07
  hit the fights and all that stuff but I'll still stuck with how difficult that was to walk over
• 1:06:12
  and I was 16 you know and so you imagine what it's like for a lot of these kids that are
• 1:06:16
  rolling around they get kicked out of primary school have to change schools and stuff to try and
• 1:06:20
  make friends and do those things you know so yeah it was really interesting for me and I what I found
• 1:06:25
  is this with those educators at the new school is that they were open to support me and be a part
• 1:06:32
  of my learning and all those things but I had to meet them halfway you know and so I looked
• 1:06:40
  for fights they weren't there and then I just got zero a few times on tests that I didn't
• 1:06:44
  hand in and went oh god and most of my mates at the school I was ash like they didn't go to
• 1:06:50
  university like I was you know I was yeah and I'm both of my parents didn't finish high school like
• 1:06:56
  I was you know I was really different but I've been lucky I haven't worked hard I've you know
• 1:07:02
  worked hard a bit but I've been really lucky that that experience happened to me I think I
• 1:07:06
  wouldn't have finished high school if wasn't for that school you know and so I've been really
• 1:07:11
  fortunate and that's I think that's why I'm so passionate about those bad kids because I was one
• 1:07:16
  of you know what I mean and so what I'm trying to do is catch those kids and I take your point
• 1:07:21
  about like you see the extreme but what we know is like through when we poll families all over
• 1:07:28
  the country a lot of them struggle every day with their kids behavior a lot of them a lot of
• 1:07:34
  parents feel like mental health issues and kids are best left alone a lot of parents and educators
• 1:07:39
  don't know how to identify or support kids that have emotional behavioral difficulties I think
• 1:07:44
  you're quite unique and maybe your social circle is too but I wonder if you feel a hundred percent
• 1:07:49
  confident in the best way to respond every time your kids are struggling because I feel like
• 1:07:53
  sometimes if you walk around society and tapped parents on the shoulder and said hey you're doing
• 1:07:57
  this perfect don't need any help you're 100 percent confident everything you're doing honestly
• 1:08:02
  none of us would say yes no including me no and I and I want all the help that I can get and have
• 1:08:07
  there have been times where I've needed all the help that I can get and where I haven't been as
• 1:08:10
  privileged and lucky as I am now there have been times where we've had mental health issues in
• 1:08:14
  the family or we haven't had family support or you know there have been professional upsets
• 1:08:19
  or whatever it might be and when you start piling on the stresses then all of the your ability to
• 1:08:24
  patiently parent becomes testing so I can only imagine what it's like for people who are dealing
• 1:08:28
  with that 24 seven but I reckon you've got a skill set and it's probably why you're so good
• 1:08:33
  professionally because probably the most important parenting bit of advice that I can give anyone
• 1:08:38
  is what's called reflective practice it's being able to sit and go how my kids going how my
• 1:08:44
  going and my journey of supporting them is there anything I need to adjust prioritise change
• 1:08:49
  and I imagine you do that and I don't know if you consciously have a discussion with your partner
• 1:08:54
  or whatever but I bet you reflect in moments and but there's a lot of imagine your friends
• 1:08:58
  are some of them there's a lot of parents who are hitting their head against a wall with how
• 1:09:02
  their kids are going but imagine though their dads they'll be playing golf and they'll invest all
• 1:09:07
  this money in your clubs they'll go to the range and they'll hit balls they'll read and watch
• 1:09:11
  social media and consume content about how to get better at golf they care way more about their
• 1:09:16
  kids but they don't approach parenting like us yeah no I mean I completely accept all that we need
• 1:09:22
  to be better informed about it we need to understand it better we should have better resources
• 1:09:26
  the you know the the challenges of parenting should not be left to atrophy until they reach your
• 1:09:32
  clinic I mean there should be more support outside of the NDIS there should be more support
• 1:09:36
  in school there should be support in the community I completely accept that most people don't feel
• 1:09:41
  like they're doing parenting perfectly I regard all of that as somewhat distinct from the question
• 1:09:47
  of whether or not attitudes about what bad parenting is are as broken as they seem to be in your
• 1:09:56
  clinic well I mean I like the the bloke who's standing in the doorway saying every time I hit
• 1:10:02
  him ends up being scared of me I don't understand why yeah and I once again sensationally giving
• 1:10:08
  an extreme yeah that is a very I would I would hazard a guess that that's a very rare
• 1:10:15
  well I mean the rest of this conversation go to uncomfortable conversations dot substack dot com slash
• 1:10:23
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• 1:10:30
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• 1:10:35
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• 1:10:41
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• 1:10:45
  and we'll see you next time