Latest / Preacher Handshake / Episode 1 - Andie Pellicer

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Episode 1 - Andie Pellicer · Preacher Handshake

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This week on Preacher Handshake, we talk with
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Andy Pellicer, the pastor of University Baptist
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Church in Waco, Texas. Andy is a recent Texas
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transplant from Washington State and is the first
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female pastor at UBC. She has a B .A. in Christian
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Studies from Grand Canyon University and an M
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.D. from Fuller Theological Seminary. Andy has
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been married to her spouse Jeremy for 20 years,
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is the mother of four daughters, and is a self
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-described 100 % extrovert on the Myers -Briggs
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personality scale. We talk all things preaching
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with Andy and specifically look at a sermon she
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delivered at UBC on July 14, 2024. The sermon
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is based on Jonah 2 and was part of a larger
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sermon series on the Book of Jonah. You will
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get a wonderful sense from Andy about her 100
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% extroversion, especially in conversation with
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two 0 % extroverts, Hannah and I, in this conversation.
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And I really loved talking with Andy and really
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hearing how she brought her full personality,
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her full story, some vulnerability, really some
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things that she was wrestling with and continues
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to wrestle with all the way into the text and
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let the text speak. to her and then through her
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to the congregation in a really powerful way.
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So there'll be clips of this sermon all throughout
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our conversation, but if you want to hear the
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whole thing, I'd really encourage you to check
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that link in the show notes. You will not regret
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listening to this sermon. So one of the reasons
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why we wanted to have Andy on the podcast is
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I had been hearing from a lot of friends who
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live in Waco and around Waco talk really highly
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about Andy and how much they valued her authenticity
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and her presence and how she was a really great
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preacher. And so I kind of had started listening
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to Andy preach a little bit just through messages
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and clips that I could find online and was like,
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wow, she brings such a unique and interesting
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interesting perspective and voice to this. And
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all along was still having friends say like,
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Andy's awesome. You should get to know her. But
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I had already moved away. And so I was like,
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well, what better opportunity to talk to Andy
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about something that I really love and to have
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her come and share why she really loves preaching
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and why she thinks it matters. So really excited
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to have Andy on. She does not disappoint. Well,
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welcome, Andi. We're so glad that you're here.
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To start with, one of the questions we're going
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to ask everyone is, what is your relationship
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to preaching? Yeah, so I started preaching in
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a broader context. I actually did like camp speaking
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and was a keynote speaker at a couple of universities
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before I was a regular preacher. And so my last
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congregation was the first time that I was like,
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Every Sunday morning, I did that for three and
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a half years straight. And now I've got myself
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on a four on one off rotation, which I love.
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I really enjoy preaching. I think it's an opportunity
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to be incredibly vulnerable. It's like there's
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this very like cliche in any song that I love.
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And it's like these words are my diary, like
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written out loud or sung out loud or something
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like that. And that's how. I feel preaching is.
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Um, yeah, I, it's something that I feel very
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honored to do. I take it really seriously. Um,
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and I think good preaching can, uh, highlight
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the, uh, like ever present, um, relational, um,
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invested God that we're always in the midst of.
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So yeah, big fan. So tell us a little bit about
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your current context and your congregation. Okay,
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so UBC is a cooperative Baptist fellowship affiliated
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church. We just also were accepted to become
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affiliated with the Association of Welcoming
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and Affirming Baptists. So we're really excited
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about that. Just found out last week on our 30th
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birthday as a congregation, probably... Somewhere
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between 150 and 300 people. There's a lot of
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people who would say, I don't go to church. But
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if I did, UBC is my church. So we talk about
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UBC as a place where people either get brave
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and come to church for the first time, or it's
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often somebody's last effort to find somewhere
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where they feel like they fit. So median age
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is probably mid -30s. Started as a college church,
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has now evolved into a church that has. span
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of generations. A lot of those college kids got
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married, stuck around, had kiddos. And so, yeah,
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definitely a progressive, kind of like liberal.
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church in a lot of ways. Theologically, we really
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strive to hold this tension between our roots
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and how they look to the future and inform the
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way we kind of embody the love of Jesus in the
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world. Yeah, liturgical in a lot of ways and
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also like very vibey. So tell us a little bit
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about what your sermon prep process looks like.
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What is a typical week as you're preparing for
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sermon stuff look like? Yeah, so that has definitely
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changed. UBC is the first church that I have
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pastored that consistently follows the liturgical
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calendar. And so now I'm using the lectionary
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for the first time in my vocational context.
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So I'm looking at the lectionary on Mondays,
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kind of have you know, probably like eight weeks
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of time in mind. Try to follow either, you know,
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a narrative that's present in the lectionary
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of the Old Testament. So we're going to like,
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you know, stick with the story of Job for a little
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bit, or we're going to stick with a New Testament
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character. So, you know, bring in the epistles.
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But yeah, Monday, I'm starting to think through,
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okay, what are some relevant experiences that
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we're having like culturally um the wider world
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our own congregation thinking through the lives
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of of my people specifically um Tuesday Wednesday
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you know what what kind of personal stories um
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are coming to mind what resonates with me in
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my own faith journey um and then you know looking
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into to commentaries um I have some some go -tos
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that I love um And I also try really hard to
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get out of my like go -tos and get a broader
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perspective. Yeah. And then I do most of my sermon
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writing kind of like internally. And then on
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Saturdays, and this makes a lot of people cringe,
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I sit down and write the thing every week. I
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can preach pretty. um off like off script if
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I have it fresh in my mind um so it's it's rolling
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around all week um and then as far as um like
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just the kind of academic side of preaching um
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you know if something's really interesting or
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kind of challenging or confusing um if I read
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something in a commentary that's kind of a newer
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thought you know I I love going to original language
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and just see like the creativity and expansion
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of, of some of those, um, thoughts, but yeah.
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Um, I, uh, I sometimes I'm finishing a sermon
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on a Sunday morning, so yeah. We've all been
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there. Um, so like, tell me, uh, some of those
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favorite commentaries, if you don't mind. Oh,
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goodness. So I can give you some abbreviations
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that A, B and D. The I really like the interpretation
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series. I think that's my favorite one because
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it reads very like plain language, which I appreciate.
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And then the feminist approach to modern day
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commentary. I really enjoy looking at like queer
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theology for commentaries, feminist interpretations.
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And then I can't remember the name of it, but
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it takes like six of the like Reformation thinkers
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and gives their notes, which is really interesting
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because then you're getting some thought like
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from Calvin and you're getting some thoughts
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from Luther. And so some of this, that takes
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a little more like digging through because it's.
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you know, it's not like modern day language,
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but I really appreciate some of those like older
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thoughts as well. Yeah. This specific sermon
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that we're going to be talking about is Jonah.
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And I want to play a clip to get started. Kind
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of, I love how you introduce this. We were in
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chapter two of Jonah and you're just, it really,
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I think reveals a lot about your context and
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the vibe that you described as you're engaging
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with. this text that also has some of these bizarre
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questions about biblical literacy or whatever.
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And so I want to share just a brief clip from
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that sermon as we get started from the beginning,
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one of the early things you chose to do. First,
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the Bible doesn't have to be factual or historical
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to be true. Please don't fire me. I love that
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you had that right up at the beginning. You're
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engaging in this question. Why did you feel like
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you had to make that statement? for your congregants
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to hear at the top? Yeah. So a lot of my congregants
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are kind of like post deconstruction, trying
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to understand the relationship to what they were
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taught, you know, as kids, or, I mean, we have
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a lot of seminary students and seminary grads.
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And so when we understand truth in the context
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that the biblical writers understood it, there's
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a lot more freedom to uh envision like a broader
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understanding of what scripture can be uh so
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so this idea that something can be true um to
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a post -enlightenment post -modern society without
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it being factual um those things just don't compute
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so is it true that there was a big fish that
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swallowed Jonah yes and maybe no but if that's
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what we get caught up on we'll never be able
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to like dig out that um You know, those those
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application points or those touch points. And
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those are the kind of things that I appreciate
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saying in a sermon, because those are the things
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that I like. I have a lot of student debt to
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learn this stuff, but we don't talk about it
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in a church context. Oftentimes we teach people
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what to think and not how to think. And so understanding
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that. The sermon is an opportunity to equip people
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to think critically and imaginatively is really
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important. Yeah. So saying something like, hey,
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we can just go ahead and say, maybe this happened
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and maybe this didn't. But is that really the
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point? And are we going to stand in our own way?
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Are we going to avoid what God might want to
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say to us in this moment? Because, you know,
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we haven't found the skeleton of a big fish.
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It seems like a waste of our time to not at least
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acknowledge like the fantastic nature of scripture
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in that way. I love how you're just giving so
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much credit to your audience, you know, like
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you're just trusting them and inviting them to
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think deeply and so often missing in preaching.
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I'm truly grateful for it. So you make this reference
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to prayer kind of being a potential addition
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to the narrative. And there's a lot of places
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like in scripture like that that we see where
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we're dealing with a time difference or like
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maybe something was added later. So how did you
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wrestle with how much of that to say or talking
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more about that? How did you sort through that?
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Yeah, I, again, in seminary, that was, I mean,
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I would say a little bit in undergrad, but the
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first time I encountered that. you know, the
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idea Moses maybe didn't write all, you know,
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all five books of the Pentateuch. I think we
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do a disservice to people and a disservice to
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God when we don't give them the information that
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they might uncover somewhere else in the hope
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that they will just kind of like hook, line,
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and sink or believe what we have to say. So recognizing
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the richness of the biblical tradition and interpretation
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requires us to be honest about source material.
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And so when I think through, oh, this can actually
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undo somebody's understanding. Am I afraid of
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that as a pastor? So one of the things I say
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often in my sermons is if any, especially in
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challenging either material or content, like
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if any of this is hard for you, I am available
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to you in any context that you need me to be.
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So having this open invitation to like, it might
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be really hard to hear that people went back
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and changed things. If that's hard for you to
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hear, let's talk about it. I think that, you
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know, we can't disconnect our sermons from the
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ministry that we do day to day. And so being
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available, not just as a source of information,
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but pastorally to people when we think through,
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okay, we're going to say this thing that might
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upend somebody's understanding of this passage
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is really important. So yeah, in wrestling through
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that. I find my congregation really appreciates
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that kind of information. A lot of them have
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heard it before, but I lean into the mystic side
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of scripture because I do pastor a congregation
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that, again, a lot of people are opposed to construction.
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And so matching those things in a way that's
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meaningful acknowledges and validates the experience
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that this is a book. that has been edited and
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translated while still leaving space for, and
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somehow it's like this beautiful, sacred, alive
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thing. Well, speaking of honesty, I don't want
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to be honest about the text, but you're really
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honest with your own life in this sermon in lots
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of ways. And so this clip here, I want to play
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about kind of your own vulnerability entering
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into this story and how it parallels with stories
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in your own life. And we're going to leave the
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fish behind and talk about what happened inside.
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Fair warning, okay? If you need me as your pastor
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to be a stalwart of unshakable faith, this is
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your chance to leave the room. Just go. You can
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come back next week. I might look better next
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week. But there is nothing about the story that
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I'm going to share with you that inspires confidence
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in me. It is just raw honesty, ridiculous self
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-disclosure, and it will forever be the story
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that I associate with Jonah's time of despair
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and return in the belly of the fish. When I heard
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that, I was like, she went there. That was such
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a gutsy thing to do, I would say. but so profound
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and so beautiful of a way to start this segment.
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So why do you think it was so important for people
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to hear that message from their pastor, from
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their preacher? I distinctly remember a moment
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as a congregant and as a future employee of a
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church that I was at where the pastor was saying,
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you know, You know, I've really struggled with
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this thing and I'm going to tell you this story.
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And he was in his 60s and he told a story of
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when his adult children were small and he got
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mad at his wife. And I thought, oh, has it really
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been 30 years since you've lost your temper?
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You know, here I was like thinking this is the
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moment that I can see myself in this person that
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I respect and who is guiding, informing me. And
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these self disclosures that he offered, he was
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so far removed from them that I thought, oh,
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actually, we have nothing in common because I
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did that thing that he was talking about, like
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on the way to church today. So so that really
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informed my desire to be open and honest about
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things that are going on in my life currently
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that are timely because we have this. really
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unhealthy culture of pastor worship. UBC does
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not struggle with that at all. It is not a congregation
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where I have to worry about people putting me
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on a pedestal. And also I don't want them to
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ever have to wonder if they can bring their stuff
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to me because I have my own stuff. And while
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I said, this is not me being, you know, this
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like stalwart example of faith, I think in a
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lot of ways it genuinely is. It is an example
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of genuine, true, authentically lived faith where
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you just have nothing to give and it just doesn't
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exist. And if we don't, as pastors, say, oh,
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in this moment, I can't hear from God or in this
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season, I don't want to hear from God. I just,
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I can't. I refuse to create this image that I
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have things figured out that I don't and that
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I don't desire to have figured out. And so I
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think in those moments of vulnerability and self
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-disclosure, not only am I doing the thing that
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I think a sermon should do, which is to speak
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to God authentically from my own experience,
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but to speak to God's people. as from within
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God's own people. So that experience and many
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experiences that I've had as a pastor and, you
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know, with my own mental health, they don't exclude
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me from having something to say. In fact, I think
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it's those experiences that make what I say poignant
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and helpful at times. Yeah. And, you know, to
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their credit, I don't have to worry at my at
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my church that those kind of disclosures will
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somehow out me like I am. I joke about don't
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fire me, but that's why they hired me. And so
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I think that's really beautiful. And it's a healthy
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way of relating as, you know, the whole priesthood
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of God and not just, you know, the person on
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a stage on a Sunday morning. Thank you for sharing
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that. It just so resonates. I remember at a different
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congregation in different times in my ministry,
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like, and different mentors from different generations
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who would say things like, you know, don't let
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them see a sweat or vulnerability or weakness
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from the pastor is the last thing people want.
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And I just think that we're missing it when we
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operate that way and navigating how to be respectful
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of the people, different needs or whatever is
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fine. But I'm so grateful for your vulnerability
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and that movement towards inviting people in
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and that this destruction of really the elevation
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of the pastor in a way that's so unhealthy, I
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think. So thanks for sharing. That's why we were
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having left and right, like we call them moral
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failures, right? But no person is able or should
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be expected to. lead in a way that is inauthentic
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to themselves and to what they're experiencing.
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Because if we're not healthy in those public
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spaces, the things going on in private are really,
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really unhealthy and destructive. So, yeah. Well,
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we have another clip of you using the Hebrew
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in a way that you use biblical languages in your
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messages, which I thought was really interesting.
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The Hebrew word used to describe the way that
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the fish swallowed Jonah is bala. It means engulf,
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consume. It is the same word used when the earth
21:21
swallowed up Korah in Numbers chapter 16. And
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that's what I wanted. I longed for engulfment,
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for bala. To stop feeling everything I was feeling
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and just sink down into the earth. Oh, that makes
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me teary. I love the way that you just really
21:45
seamlessly, you know, use the language and then
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brought it right back to your own experience
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and in a way that felt so organic and not forced.
21:55
Like the Bible says this in the original language.
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It wasn't one of those cringy moments. So I know
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that that's something that like we've all heard
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a sermon where they've said, well, in the original
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language. So how do you decide when it's appropriate
22:11
to talk about biblical languages in your sermons?
22:14
What is engaging with that look like? I'm curious
22:17
about that. Yeah, so I think it's this. incredible
22:25
tragedy that we have to have translation because
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our language just pales in comparison to the
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original languages. But also that's one of the
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like the fun benefits of having kind of a interpretive
22:42
or hermeneutical approach to reading scripture
22:47
with an open hand. So I can. Like if something
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piques my interest in some way and I'm like,
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I wonder what that actually says. You know, I
22:54
can look and say, all right, this was our best
22:56
guess for the meaning of this particular word
22:58
in this context and why. But what if it's these
23:01
seven other different ways that we've used something
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and left it behind? So I think it's one of the
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litmus tests is it can it be seamless? Is it
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something that's going to be a cringe moment
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of like, you know. you know, actually. And so
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if, if I have to like force it into that space,
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um, and if it anyway comes across as like self
23:25
-promoting or like, you know, I fluted that that's
23:28
a no -go for me. Um, But I think it's important
23:32
when we are equipping people to understand how
23:36
to approach scripture or teaching them a couple
23:39
of ways to do that. We let them know that, hey,
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this one word means seven different things. And
23:45
we just did best guess with a lot of scholarship
23:49
and, you know, but but this is best guess. And
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so what if it. What if it means this like more
23:55
encompassing thing? What if we look at it with
23:58
life and, you know, it becomes kind of a character
24:01
into itself. And so, you know, in that particular
24:04
instance, swallowed just, there was something
24:10
in me, Holy Spirit or training, I don't know,
24:14
but something that said there's, this doesn't
24:16
feel, this doesn't match the tone of the rest
24:20
of the passage. And so I wonder why. that that
24:23
kind of dissonance exists, you know, I swallowed
24:26
by a fish and then this like mourning and, and
24:29
regret and remorse and, you know, this reclamation
24:32
of Jonah back to this mission that God had set
24:35
him on, um, swallowed seemed really shallow.
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Um, so yeah, that got me thinking, okay, what
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could it mean? Um, oh, there's my espresso maker.
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Um, What could it mean to look at a deeper, more
24:52
holistic, you know, like word to put in place?
24:58
And so that's what kind of takes me to the original
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language. You know, books like Mark that are
25:04
very sparse, I find going back to the Greek is
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really helpful. But I just try to I try to listen
25:12
when something. like kind of perks my ears a
25:18
little bit more I think so often like the original
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languages can create distance and what this one
25:23
does I mean there's already distance of like
25:25
who among us can relate to being swallowed by
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a fish none of us right so you know as you said
25:32
in the beginning is so fantastical that it feels
25:35
so distant but who can relate to feeling engulfed
25:38
every person in the room you know and so and
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so what sometimes feels like creates distance
25:43
in the language You used it in a way that brought
25:46
us closer. Just so beautiful. You also go from
25:49
there and that's beginning this journey of really
25:55
sharing this deep personal story about your own
25:59
kind of Nineveh journey where you're going through
26:03
an adoption process and waiting to hear. And
26:06
you know that the twins have probably been born,
26:11
but the mother is in the hospital and you're...
26:13
How about getting all these mixed signals? You
26:15
go to Utah to just find out. And so you're in
26:18
this time of just waiting. And the whole time,
26:22
I mean, so I have twins that were born eight
26:25
weeks early and we spent 27 days in the NICU.
26:28
So this whole time I'm just like feeling all
26:30
these feels with you. It's just incredibly powerful.
26:37
How did you decide? to bring your congregation
26:42
along through this really personal narrative
26:45
and journey? And as an outsider, I'm like, I
26:48
want to know more. I need to know the end of
26:50
the story because I'm coming in from the internet.
26:52
But is that typical for your preaching? I would
26:56
say it's pretty typical. I know a lot of people
27:00
landed a lot of different ways on the election,
27:03
but for our congregation, we are experiencing
27:06
a deep grief and a lot of fear. So, you know,
27:12
my sermon a week ago was about my own fear and
27:18
grief and struggle to find hope in a moment in
27:23
time where I believe God will be calling on God's
27:27
people in a fresh way and also in the same way
27:30
God has always been inviting us. Desire to share
27:36
this story is twofold. Number one, I'm at this
27:42
point, I mean, this was the summer, so I'm still
27:45
relatively new to my congregation. They were
27:48
not along with me for the 10 years it took for
27:51
us to adopt our twins. They were not in those
27:56
moments where it felt like a very cruel joke
28:00
that. We continued to wait on this thing that
28:05
we felt like God had invited us into. So that
28:09
is a source of strength and joy and renewal in
28:15
my own life that I wanted to share so that they
28:19
could get to know me better and I could get to
28:21
know them better. But yeah, for this one in particular,
28:27
we were doing kind of like, So Jonah, this little
28:34
series was a break from the lectionary that we
28:36
took and we did workshops to kind of go along
28:39
with each text. And so one of the workshops that
28:43
I had offered was why are we an inclusive affirming,
28:47
queer affirming church? So coming from that workshop
28:51
into this preaching moment, you know, there were
28:55
a lot of folks who would come for that workshop.
29:00
who had decided, I mean, we had a great turnout
29:04
for the workshop and probably half of them decided
29:06
they were to stay for church, which is great.
29:08
And I wanted to offer a moment where people who
29:14
have been marginalized and have felt alone and
29:17
have discounted themselves or allowed other people
29:20
to discount them felt safe and seen and had something
29:25
to connect with. And I never, ever, ever want
29:32
to stand on pretense with my congregation. I
29:34
never want them to think that, again, I have
29:37
things figured out that I don't. And I would
29:41
agree that kind of like this old guard mentality
29:44
of, but they're looking to you for answers. And
29:47
I think there is an element of truth in that.
29:51
But more importantly, we're... communally looking
29:54
to God for answers. And so pointing people to
30:00
my own desire for God is resonant. I think pointing
30:04
people to the moment where I find God maybe isn't
30:07
as much. And I want to be honest about that.
30:12
And I want people to feel comfortable being honest
30:14
with me. You know, and sharing. this part of
30:19
my twins' story as an adoptive parent, wanting
30:23
to be really sensitive to the fact that what
30:26
I have shared is public knowledge. Like lots
30:29
of people have experienced time in the NICU and
30:32
that is a shared experience, but their story
30:36
is private and they're not fodder for my sermons,
30:40
you know, trying to find that balance of, you
30:42
know, these are the facts of the story, but focusing
30:45
on my own experience and what I can speak to
30:47
is true. was also like really important as a
30:50
parent for me to protect my kids in that moment.
30:54
And they're fine. They're thriving. They're doing
30:56
great. Yeah. And that, I mean, really the benefit
31:00
of being able to share that story in that context
31:02
is then I went and picked them up from their
31:04
Sunday school room and they're running around
31:05
and, you know, our congregation knows them and
31:08
loves them. But I did have somebody who was pretty
31:11
new to UBC ask me to coffee and say, what happened?
31:16
I, I just, and, and, you know, we kind of like
31:19
pick that story up next week, but it was killing
31:21
her. She, I was like, they're fine. They're there.
31:24
Check my Instagram. They're everywhere. So. Yeah.
31:27
I remember telling a story, a story, a similar,
31:29
really personal one. And I didn't have that resolution
31:31
for the same. And I had like four people afterwards.
31:35
What happened? You can't just leave me. It was
31:40
really beautiful. Just the way that you move
31:42
from that to speaking of like this really deep
31:44
personal experience. And then also. just kind
31:47
of like the emotional and spiritual element that
31:50
was present as well. That was really profound
31:53
for me. I feel like in a lot of my faith has
31:56
been a lot of wrestling and a lot of doubting
31:58
and a lot of yelling. And so it was really refreshing
32:03
to hear somebody preach on that and to be so
32:06
honest about that experience. There's one particular
32:09
moment of a clip that we're going to play that
32:12
I think was really important. And then one awful
32:16
day, we got a call from our agency telling us
32:19
that the twins' birth mom was awake, and the
32:23
first thing that she said was, do not tell the
32:25
social workers anything. And that could only
32:29
mean one thing. She was going to parent, and
32:34
we were going home to empty cribs and with shattered
32:37
hearts. And that's the reality of adoption. It
32:42
should always be a reality. It should always
32:45
be family staying together and being okay as
32:49
best case scenario. And my brain is really smart.
32:57
I don't know if this is true for you, but my
32:59
heart is less smart. And I was trying to picture
33:04
a reality where we went home and told our daughters
33:07
that their sisters weren't actually ever going
33:09
to be their sisters. And all at once, I was relieved
33:16
that someone that I care about so much was okay.
33:20
And so overwhelmed by grief and fear that I got
33:25
in my car and I went for a drive just trying
33:27
to process the news. And friends, when I tell
33:32
you that it had been a hot minute since I felt
33:36
like I had heard anything from God, I had felt
33:40
so stuck in this space of apathy and withholding,
33:45
I felt spiritually dead, and that had been going
33:48
on for far too long. To come to this space and
33:56
to not have what felt like the reserves that
33:58
I needed, was exhausting in a way I cannot communicate
34:02
effectively. Wow. I mean, I think when I first
34:05
heard that I had to kind of just sit and like
34:07
absorb it because it's such a true reality that
34:13
you're describing for so many people. And yet
34:16
so often it's not something we talk about. So
34:20
I'm thankful for that. And I'm grateful that
34:24
you really boldly shared that. And honestly,
34:27
kind of gave us a look behind. Here's what was
34:30
going on. But I'm curious, you know, there may
34:34
be people that have listened to that sense or
34:37
certainly people we know now. Sounds like your
34:40
congregation is feeling some of it maybe right
34:42
now. What encouragement, advice, direction do
34:46
you give to those who find themselves maybe in
34:48
this moment where they're like, I haven't heard
34:50
from God in a while? What do you say to them
34:54
in those moments? Yeah. Um, first I would just
34:58
say that sucks. That sucks. And I'm very sorry.
35:03
Um, that's a painful space to be in. It's not
35:08
a failure on your part. It is not, um, you're
35:12
not trying hard enough or you don't have enough
35:14
faith or you don't have enough, um, you know,
35:17
you're not doing your, your daily whatever's,
35:20
um, sometimes the God of the universe is silent.
35:25
And that is a horrible reality. I think we rush
35:33
in to want to fix that for each other because
35:35
it is a tension that feels like so bone deep.
35:44
And so just keep doing the work, you know, as
35:49
we are feeling. a myriad of things and looking
35:54
for God's guidance and sovereignty and will and
35:58
all the things that we hope are true. What is
36:06
consistent is we've been invited into this like
36:09
co -reconciliation, co -creation. And sometimes
36:15
in God's silence, we just default to the work.
36:20
And we look to one another. I mean, I have found
36:24
in those moments of profound emptiness that I
36:29
find God in places I didn't expect God to be.
36:33
And while I don't wish the means on anybody,
36:38
the end is really quite beautiful. And for me,
36:44
too, in my own apathy and my own exhaustion.
36:48
I often find that when I do kind of rediscover
36:51
God, it's because I'm being honest with myself
36:54
about what's going on in my own life and my world
36:56
and my fear and, and in a desire to continue
37:03
to be present for people. I forget to be present
37:10
to myself. So sometimes that space needs, needs.
37:17
the same compassion and space and grace that
37:20
you would give somebody else, like give that
37:22
to yourself. And, and, and the reality is that
37:25
God's presence has occupied every square inch
37:29
of this world and beyond. And if all you can
37:32
hang on to is God is present with me, whether
37:34
I feel it or not like that, that has gotten me
37:38
through some very hard times. You, you reveal
37:42
right after this section. About this mystical
37:46
experience you had at an intersection. We'll
37:54
play the clip and then we'll talk more. And then
37:58
I'm on this drive. And clear as day, I felt like
38:02
God was asking me, if you don't go home with
38:06
them, am I enough for you? Listen, let's talk
38:10
a whole moves, right? Because that is just insanity.
38:17
And I knew what that question meant. Somewhere
38:23
along the way, the question that many of us have
38:27
asked ourselves to evaluate our spiritual health
38:30
or unhealth is, what are we prioritizing above
38:33
God? What aren't we willing to sacrifice? And
38:39
of course, if something does exist that upsets
38:41
God's position as numero uno sky daddy, it is
38:45
an idol. And it's got to go. All that history,
38:52
all of that bad theology, all of the numbness
38:57
and the sadness and the regret and the honesty
39:00
collided in that moment in the car and I knew
39:02
the answer. No. No, you are not enough. If after
39:11
ten years of hanging in there, of prayers and
39:14
tears and confirmations and quitting and feeling
39:17
compelled to try to adopt and... If after all
39:20
of that, if after 10 years of being told that
39:23
we were holding open a door that God clearly
39:25
wanted closed, if the answer was no, if after
39:29
a week in hell waiting to hear if our twins were
39:32
alive or if I could call them ours because they
39:35
weren't at that point, if the love that I had
39:38
for this person just evaporated into no relationship
39:43
and no future, if I had to go back with a hole
39:47
in my chest, Where my heart lived before, would
39:52
God be enough? No. I just, it was so moving for
40:02
me. As you were navigating, like, sharing that,
40:08
you know, I've shared some out of my own kind
40:11
of mystical encounters with God I found to be
40:13
really helpful. But I also hear like this voice
40:17
that says, You know, what is this grounded in
40:19
and what are you doing? And, you know, how did
40:23
you balance, you know, just in the crafting of
40:25
this message, you know, to both articulate this
40:28
experience that you had and create space and
40:33
you do it with humor. I mean, you just do such
40:35
a beautiful job of creating space to respond
40:39
to that experience in a way that. that regardless
40:43
of where your congregation is at, still probably
40:45
felt a little jarring, I think, for some people.
40:48
How did you land there and get to the place where
40:52
you knew this is what you had to say? I mean,
40:57
there is that fear and insecurity, you know,
41:01
when I'm very dubious of anybody who says, like,
41:06
God told me, especially when that It's followed
41:10
with God told me that you, you know, and so wanting
41:15
to share something that was incredibly painful
41:21
and incredibly powerful in a way that was true
41:27
of what I experienced, that had to stand on its
41:32
own. It had to be. with sensitivity and with
41:36
kindness and an awareness of where my congregation
41:38
is. And also it had to just be like that moment
41:43
was an offering to God. And that was between
41:45
me and God. And sorry, I'm not sorry at all.
41:52
Actually, just that crept up on me. I am accountable
42:01
and responsible. before God first and, and forever.
42:07
And so here's, here's one of the most formational
42:13
experiences that I've, I've had following my
42:17
own deconstruction. And, and I, and I cannot,
42:24
I cannot withhold something for fear of the outcome.
42:33
Um, and that, that's an area I struggle with
42:37
ask my therapist because she often says, um,
42:40
oh, I hear we're releasing the end. We're releasing
42:43
the outcome. Thank you. Um, but, but my responsibility
42:49
in that moment was to share this deeply enriching
42:55
and deeply, um, excruciating moment. And that's
43:01
it. And how people responded is between them
43:05
and God. And if they responded in a way that
43:07
was between them and me, then I, again, I was
43:11
available to them to have that conversation.
43:13
But it's those moments when I, when I really
43:18
have to say, I, I have like one person that I'm
43:25
saying this to, and that person is Jesus. And
43:27
beyond that, I, you know, I never want that to
43:32
be licensed to be insensitive. And also that
43:36
like the reality is that is that's part of the
43:38
role of pastoring a congregation. Like I have
43:41
to do what I feel like is the embodiment of the
43:45
will and heart of Jesus in those moments. Yeah,
43:48
it was a powerful moment. And then you move from
43:51
that to then really validating people's experience
43:55
wherever they're at. in their faith journey and
43:58
it was really beautiful to see how I can imagine
44:02
in the room every person feels included in this
44:05
message which is I think a really rare and hard
44:09
thing to do to be able to bring everybody in
44:12
but you you have kind of this moment and I think
44:16
we have a clip of it where you're sharing about
44:18
like Everybody is wherever you're at, that your
44:21
desires matter and the intentions that you have
44:25
in your relationship matter. And that was a really
44:28
moving moment in your message. I called to the
44:33
Lord out of my distress and he answered me. Out
44:37
of the belly of Sheol I cried and you heard my
44:39
voice. You cast me into the deep, into the heart
44:44
of the seas, and the flood surrounded me. All
44:46
your waves and your billows passed over me. Then
44:51
I said, I am driven away from your sight. How
44:55
shall I look again upon your holy temple? The
44:59
waters closed in over me. The deep surrounded
45:01
me. Weeds were wrapped around my head at the
45:04
roots of the mountains. upon me forever. Yet
45:15
you brought up my life from the pit. Oh Lord,
45:20
my God. As my life was ebbing away, I remembered
45:24
the Lord and my prayer came to you into your
45:27
holy temple. The next day, I turned my attention
45:34
to God for just a moment. Just a moment. It was
45:40
a moment either of tremendous resiliency or unquenchable
45:48
desperation. I'll let you choose. And I said,
45:54
once again, no, you're not enough. You aren't
45:59
enough. But I want you to be. I want my answer
46:05
to be yes. I want to love you and trust you and
46:08
know you that much. There is this prevailing
46:12
narrative about the relationship between God
46:14
and Jonah in a lot of post -evangelical, post
46:17
-deconstruction circles that God forced Jonah's
46:21
hand, that God did not respect Jonah's autonomy.
46:26
And that we're all just consumables in the hands
46:29
of a hard and stubborn God. And I can see that
46:33
interpretation. I feel the pain in that. I truly
46:36
can. But I have said no to God. And I have felt
46:41
those waters closing around me. And I felt the
46:44
acceptance that was offered to me when I couldn't
46:48
accept what might be waiting for me in my own
46:50
personal Nineveh. If this prayer, if this chapter,
46:57
if this book teaches us anything, it is that
47:00
it is never too late to remember God. And it
47:06
just takes a moment. It teaches us that our no's
47:12
don't always meld into yes's, but sometimes our
47:16
desires matter. Our desire to say yes, our desire
47:21
to understand, our desire to allow God to be
47:24
who God wants to be in our lives, which is this
47:27
beautiful, all -encompassing, engulfing presence.
47:35
We're not too far in, we're not too far gone,
47:38
we're not too far removed, and our honesty is
47:41
not a barrier. I feel like this is one of those
47:45
clips. where I was doing the noises of like the
47:49
good soup noises where people are like, yeah,
47:52
that's what was happening for me as I was listening
47:56
to this so many times. But that point specifically,
47:59
I feel like it really was just such a moment
48:03
that like I'm going to remember even just listening
48:06
to you to be like, man, what a breath of fresh
48:09
air to be able to say like our desires matter
48:12
and wherever you're at in this journey matters.
48:16
And it was a really beautiful way that you did
48:18
that. Yeah, I came from the sin management school
48:24
of thought. Coming to faith in high school, it
48:28
was about what you did and what you didn't do,
48:30
not about who you were or who you weren't. And
48:33
so, yeah, divorcing our actions from our intentions
48:38
is, it's a sadness. And I think we see that playing
48:46
out on a national and global stage right now.
48:50
You know, when we dissociate our our physical
48:54
presence from our inner worlds, we get into trouble.
48:58
So, yeah, wanting to to give space to people
49:01
who, you know, can take to heart this, you know,
49:06
the mustard seed. Right. Like such as such as
49:09
like Sunday school kids answer. But. If even
49:13
like a grain exists, then God can take that grain
49:18
and do something with it. Choosing to like say,
49:21
like you kind of hold the text back. It's read
49:24
before the message. And we have this narrative
49:26
and all of this is happening. And then the text
49:30
reemerges. Yeah. And you just let it sit there.
49:34
And I've taught Jonah a million times. I love
49:37
Jonah. Chapter two is always hard for me because
49:40
it so feels. kind of dissonant from the rest
49:43
of the book in lots of ways. I've never been
49:46
more engrossed by Jonah 2. Like, how did you
49:50
land there? How did you make those decisions?
49:52
How did you know it was right to let the text
49:56
speak in the way that you did in this section?
50:00
I let it speak to me first. And I don't always
50:06
connect with the text, which is one of the hard
50:10
things about, you know, this like thing that
50:13
we do every week. But I have found in those moments,
50:17
it's often because I'm not letting the text take
50:22
shape inside of me first. And so, you know, the
50:25
emotion behind it and the hope that I find in
50:30
that, in that text, you know, being able to sit
50:34
and, I mean, even now, like I, I just. In my
50:38
mind, I'm envisioning like this, this sinking
50:40
into and this darkness, and that brings up memories
50:43
and feelings for me. And, you know, one of the
50:47
hesitations that I have about sharing these personal
50:52
stories is like, I don't, I don't want to make
50:54
a sermon about me. But also that's, that's what.
51:01
our witness is the way that we've been formed
51:04
and shaped by the text and so letting it just
51:06
hang there you know it it conjured in my mind
51:10
this idea of like the text is hanging there as
51:13
Jonah is hanging there and there's a lot of symbolism
51:17
in in the way you know this message I kind of
51:24
thought about it like you know, this, this arc,
51:26
it kind of takes the shape of a fish and it kind
51:28
of takes the, you know, the, the depth and the
51:31
darkness of this engulfing, you know, and then
51:36
kind of, you know, the, the curving back up of
51:38
the tail, like that's the, you know, Jonah, Jonah
51:41
gets to try again and, you know, we brought our
51:43
twins home. And so it follows this picture that
51:47
the text paints, even, even, you know, like when
51:50
you look at on it, you know, it kind of like
51:52
ebbs and flows a little bit. the written word
51:55
of Jonah too. So yeah, just, just leaning into
51:59
some of those like more creative, even more fun
52:03
ways of thinking about the text, but, but this
52:05
one, just that, like that sinking moment and
52:07
it kind of like slowly descends into the ocean.
52:10
That's, that's how I wanted that text to hang.
52:15
You achieved it. Yeah. Thank you. So I've noticed
52:19
as I've listened to you preach a few times online
52:22
that you always end in a pretty specific way.
52:26
It seems like most, if not all of your sermons,
52:28
you end by kind of inviting people to have a
52:31
moment of silence to let the spirit move. And
52:33
then you say this phrase, and I'm probably going
52:36
to mess up saying that. correct anything that
52:38
you said incorrectly. And I'm just curious, when
52:42
did you start ending your sermons this way? Why
52:44
do you think ending that way is really important?
52:46
What's the significance of that for you? Yeah,
52:49
so that's a UBC legacy. That goes far beyond
52:54
me. And the first time I said it in full disclosure,
52:59
it felt like I was undermining me, that I was
53:03
undermining myself. And so I sat with that and
53:06
was like, okay, what's my fear in inviting the
53:09
spirit to do the thing the spirit does, which
53:12
is to instruct us. And I realized, oh, this is
53:16
not only a really healthy practice to continue
53:20
to teach my congregation to be discerning and
53:25
to listen well and to not just take content and
53:28
consume it in a way that is. I want my congregation
53:33
to be trusting. I want them to trust that I will
53:36
place people in the pulpit and our worship and
53:39
arts pastor, Jamie, will place people in the
53:41
pulpit that can say true things. And also, I
53:46
never want anybody to say anything that we take
53:49
at face value. And so, yeah, so that moment of
53:53
like, oh, oh, I'm inviting them to question me.
53:55
And I was like, oh, yeah, no, I'm inviting them
53:57
to question me. That is a really, really healthy
53:59
practice. And it keeps me like it's this internal
54:04
and external accountability of I am a person.
54:08
I'm doing my best to faithfully listen and speak.
54:12
And I trust you to trust the spirit to move in
54:19
the way that she chooses. And so, yeah, it is
54:22
it was something that that felt odd at first.
54:25
And now I've really, really come to appreciate
54:28
it. I think it's. It's rooted in a humility that
54:34
is so necessary when you're standing in front
54:37
of a group of people and purporting to say something
54:42
that might be valuable for their spiritual development.
54:46
That's great. And just wise too to like, there's
54:50
so much wisdom and strength in the history of
54:52
our spaces and people. Yeah. You know, pastors
54:56
we sometimes come into. And to embrace these
55:00
things and these rhythms that they've built.
55:02
Not only you, you know, have trust and communion
55:05
with them, but just it's an appreciation of the
55:10
healthiness of humility. And that's smart and
55:14
a wise thing to say. Did you get feedback from
55:18
this message that you remember? Do you typically
55:20
get feedback? I did get feedback. There were,
55:26
you know, people kind of clamoring for the end
55:27
of the story. But I think the most powerful feedback
55:31
I got was was born out of that kind of group
55:36
that stayed around after our workshop on inclusion.
55:43
I think the feedback that I I'm remembering to
55:46
people in specific, I've never heard a pastor
55:49
talk about. I think that that was the most. um
55:52
powerful feedback that I got I've never heard
55:54
a pastor say um and then yeah I I don't get a
55:59
ton of feedback I would say probably one or two
56:02
people a week um but I I can tell when I do that
56:10
my congregation is in a tender moment um I got
56:14
a lot of feedback the week I preached after the
56:16
inauguration a lot of feedback and so While I
56:22
appreciate input on my messages, I think more
56:27
helpful, it gives me insight into like the temperature
56:32
of my congregation. And just, you know, I joke
56:37
that they hired, I am a hundred percent extrovert
56:40
on the Myers -Brite. Like that is a proven fact.
56:42
And I pastor a church of. And so and I lead a
56:49
staff of outdoor cats and I am a golden retriever
56:52
with a black cat energy. And so, you know, when
56:54
when they're speaking and when they're talking
56:56
and responding, I know how to care for them pastorally.
57:01
So what are you most proud of for this sermon?
57:06
I think I'm the most proud of the range of expression
57:12
of who I truly am. There is like I am, you know,
57:18
outgoing, I'm loud, I am expressive. And there's
57:24
a lot of that present, the humor present and
57:27
the vulnerability. That is how I seek to live
57:31
my life. I want in any context for people to
57:36
sit down and have the same experience of me and
57:40
that sermon and what I hope is true of. Most
57:44
of my sermons, if not all of them, is that that
57:46
is the version you get of me in person. And that's
57:50
like very, very important to me. And that sermon
57:55
resonates very authentically to me. And that,
57:57
yeah, I think that's my, that's always my goal
58:01
when I'm preaching. As you think about it and.
58:06
It was early in your tenure there. And as you
58:08
watch some of it again today, are there things
58:10
you would maybe do differently or you would adjust
58:12
if you were to do it again? Is it bad to say
58:16
no? No, not at all. I think I would have given,
58:21
yes, there is something. I think I would have
58:23
given some resolution simply because UBCers tend
58:32
to come once or twice a month. And so there are
58:36
people who probably missed out on the conclusion.
58:40
And I like to leave people in tension that I
58:42
can resolve, but not, you know, oh, I got to
58:45
take Andy to coffee because I don't know if her
58:47
kids are okay. I think that was kind of a mean
58:50
trick. So I think I would add in some of the
58:53
conclusion. And honestly, now that I'm thinking
58:56
about it, I... The piece of the story that I
59:01
genuinely regret not including and didn't think
59:04
to include is that the twins' birth mother had
59:10
shut down communication at the, like she was
59:16
still, like she had just woken up from a coma,
59:18
was very confused. And the nurses at the hospital
59:22
had said, you don't want to talk to anybody right
59:25
now. And they were at an adoption. um resistant
59:30
hospital um they were born and then transported
59:33
um and I get it because adoption can be very
59:36
exploitative um and so I genuinely think they
59:39
were trying to protect her um but I don't like
59:42
how she came across in that so so the resolution
59:46
um that I wish I would have included would also
59:49
have said that piece um that the second that
59:52
she was able she called and signed and And we
59:56
have an amazing relationship, amazing relationship.
59:59
Like we talk all the time. She's a very dear
1:00:02
friend and we love her very much. So yeah, I
1:00:05
don't like how she came across because I didn't
1:00:08
tell the rest of the story. Other than that,
1:00:12
no. Other than those very large things. No, I
1:00:15
wouldn't change anything. That's a great question
1:00:17
because like sometimes there are these like technical
1:00:19
things or, but then at the same time, like in
1:00:22
the novel Gilead. I don't know if you've read
1:00:24
Gilead, but like the pastor talks about like,
1:00:28
he has this like box of sermons, just burn them,
1:00:30
you know, because they're like for a moment.
1:00:33
And so like even the idea of redoing it, I don't
1:00:37
know that you can, you know? Yeah. Yeah, for
1:00:41
sure. So because we're big preaching nerds who
1:00:46
ask big existential questions sometimes and are
1:00:48
very aware of like the present moment, you've
1:00:51
already spoken to it. the reality that we live
1:00:54
in, why do you think preaching matters? Why do
1:00:57
you think that it's important today? Such a good
1:01:00
question. For at staff meeting every week, I
1:01:06
read a little something that I love or yeah.
1:01:10
And today I read from the book, why preaching
1:01:15
black lives matter or how I might be misquoting.
1:01:19
It might be how to preach black lives matter.
1:01:22
But it's this compilation of essays. And one
1:01:26
of the essays talked about activists and the
1:01:29
relationship to the church and how it is the
1:01:34
people with the most to lose who are the first
1:01:36
to sacrifice everything and the cowardice that
1:01:41
is inherent in the church. And I, you know, she's
1:01:44
speaking as a Black woman in the church. Preaching
1:01:50
matters because we have this very comfortable
1:01:54
existence in a lot of our churches. And I'm speaking
1:01:58
specifically to white Protestant spaces. And
1:02:03
so it's really easy to come together and do something
1:02:08
for a couple of hours and go home and feel great
1:02:10
about what we've done. And that's not what that
1:02:13
space is for. Preaching is a prophetic witness.
1:02:19
nod to what God wants to do with a full eye on
1:02:24
what is happening. And so as we preach, it is
1:02:27
an opportunity to impart the vision of the kingdom
1:02:34
of God to a captive audience, hopefully captive,
1:02:38
mildly captive audience, in such a way that we
1:02:42
recognize our own privilege and our, our, our
1:02:47
complicity complicity. Oh, now I'm not gonna
1:02:50
be able to say it. And, um, the way that we uphold
1:02:55
systems that are very, very harmful. Um, I have
1:03:00
stayed in the church. Um, something that I see
1:03:05
as a vehicle is of harm, um, because I think
1:03:09
it's worth. continuing to try to make it something
1:03:13
beautiful and to bring it closer to what it can
1:03:17
and should and always was intended to be. And
1:03:20
preaching moves that along. Yeah, it's so important.
1:03:26
Our words create our reality, our perspective
1:03:29
and our perception. And we're being talked out
1:03:31
a lot by people who need to sit down and be quiet.
1:03:37
So we need to stand up and be loud. wow and that's
1:03:42
all thanks for sharing all of that andy thank
1:03:48
you so much um for your care for preaching and
1:03:53
your community and be willing to share with us
1:03:56
um and to share vulnerably again um with with
1:04:01
us and and it has been a gift and we just can't
1:04:06
wait to see what continues to happen what god
1:04:08
and the spirit moves among UBC. So thank you
1:04:13
for sharing with us. Thank you. This was a true
1:04:16
delight. And I look forward to hearing your other
1:04:20
guests and hopefully to hearing from the two
1:04:22
of you at some point. Thanks for listening. Subscribe
1:04:30
and share and send us emails if you have further
1:04:34
questions or anything that you want to share
1:04:36
with us. You can also view Andy's full sermon,
1:04:40
hear about Andy's recommended commentaries, and
1:04:43
find ways to keep up with Andy and the work she's
1:04:45
doing. All of that is in our show notes. So thanks
1:04:48
for listening. See you next time.