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Fiction Author Kevin Tumlinson on Diversifying Your Writing Income · The Daily Writer

• 0:06
  SPEAKER_00: Welcome to the Daily Rider Podcast, where we bring you tips and inspiration each day to help you build habits for writing success.
• 0:14
  SPEAKER_00: For more resources, including your free Daily Rider Starter Kit, visit DailyRiderLife.com.
• 0:22
  SPEAKER_00: When we were kids, we learned the phrase, don't put all your eggs in one basket.
• 0:27
  SPEAKER_00: As adults, we try to put this into practice by doing things to minimize our risk and never trusting one single entity for our success because that one entity can always fail.
• 0:38
  SPEAKER_00: Now, the same thing is true for your success as an author, especially when it comes to the channels where you promote and sell your books.
• 0:46
  SPEAKER_00: That's why I'm really excited to feature this conversation with Kevin Tumlinson, an award-winning and best-selling author of hundreds of novels and nonfiction books.
• 0:54
  SPEAKER_00: Known as the Voice of Indie Publishing, he's helped thousands of will-be and working authors to build and grow their writing careers by his work in podcasting, public speaking, and as the director of marketing and PR for Draft to Digital.
• 1:11
  SPEAKER_00: Kevin is also an inveterate world traveler and can usually be found writing from cafes, coffee shops, and hotel lobbies around the world.
• 1:20
  SPEAKER_00: I was really inspired by a recent post that Kevin wrote for the Draft to Digital website about diversifying your writing income, and I've got a link to that in the show notes.
• 1:29
  SPEAKER_00: And that article actually informed much of our conversation.
• 1:32
  SPEAKER_00: We also talk about the value of putting your books on the incredible Draft to Digital platform and how that can help you build your author career and increase your sales.
• 1:41
  SPEAKER_00: Now, in addition, we dig into Kevin's process for writing fiction.
• 1:45
  SPEAKER_00: He talks about how he comes up with story ideas, how to formulate plots, and how to know when a story is good enough to publish.
• 1:52
  SPEAKER_00: And I really, really loved his insights about how he actually writes a first draft of a book using his looping method of editing and drafting.
• 2:01
  SPEAKER_00: In addition, we dig into Kevin's process for writing fiction.
• 2:04
  SPEAKER_00: He talks about how he comes up with story ideas, how he formulates plots, and how to know when a story is good enough to publish.
• 2:11
  SPEAKER_00: And I really, really loved his insights about how he actually writes a first draft using his looping method of editing and drafting.
• 2:18
  SPEAKER_00: You can connect with Kevin on his website, kevinTumlinson.com, and you can find all of his books and links there as well.
• 2:25
  SPEAKER_00: I also encourage you to check out Kevin's brand new nonfiction book called A Note from the Author: 123 Wise Things Someone Should Probably Say to You, which is a fantastic title.
• 2:37
  SPEAKER_00: This is a wide-ranging conversation, and I think you're really going to enjoy Kevin's insights.
• 2:42
  SPEAKER_00: Kevin, welcome to the Daily Writer Podcast.
• 2:45
  SPEAKER_00: It's really great to connect with you, and I've got a whole range of things to talk about.
• 2:48
  SPEAKER_00: But I first just want to welcome you to the uh to the show.
• 2:52
  SPEAKER_01: Good to have you.
• 2:53
  SPEAKER_01: Hey, thanks.
• 2:53
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you for having me and talking about ranges of things.
• 2:56
  SPEAKER_01: That's that's what I do.
• 2:57
  SPEAKER_01: So let's let's jump into some ranges.
• 3:01
  SPEAKER_00: Well, the first thing, and this might be the I don't want to say it's the most obvious thing necessarily, but it's a thing that's at least top of mind for me at this given second in history.
• 3:11
  SPEAKER_00: And in 10 seconds from now, it may change.
• 3:14
  SPEAKER_00: Who knows?
• 3:14
  SPEAKER_00: But but anyway, I want to make sure that people understand what draft to digital is.
• 3:19
  SPEAKER_00: This is something that of course, people who who have been into indie publishing for a while, they already know what this is, but some people still don't know what it is, which is hard to believe.
• 3:28
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 3:28
  SPEAKER_00: I'm wondering if you can explain what is draft to digital, how it's different than Amazon, why people should be putting their books on there, and so forth.
• 3:37
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 3:38
  SPEAKER_01: Uh okay, so draft to digital is what we call a publishing aggregator, meaning you would upload a manuscript to us in the form of like a Word document or an RTF document, or even as an uh a pre-formatted EPUB, if you want.
• 3:53
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, we can format all your Word documents and that sort of thing automatically for you.
• 4:00
  SPEAKER_01: And we have templates and things you can choose, kind of like Vellum, uh, to give it some professional layout style.
• 4:06
  SPEAKER_01: And then what we do is we distribute that to all the major retailers.
• 4:12
  SPEAKER_01: So um I'm trying to think of uh I'm sorry, I got sidetracked by something that popped up on my screen.
• 4:18
  SPEAKER_01: So forgive me for that.
• 4:20
  SPEAKER_01: But it's yeah, we distribute to all the major retailers.
• 4:24
  SPEAKER_01: And uh that includes Amazon and Barnes and Noble, those are in there.
• 4:28
  SPEAKER_01: Um, also Kobo, Apple Books, and uh you know, hundreds more, some of which we reach.
• 4:35
  SPEAKER_01: We reach, you know, I think thousands of of channels really.
• 4:39
  SPEAKER_01: Wow.
• 4:39
  SPEAKER_01: Uh sort of like through, you know, there'll be like this one channel like Tolino or something, and then they have several hundred uh additional channels all over Europe.
• 4:48
  SPEAKER_01: And so that's yeah, we can get you worldwide pretty pretty quick.
• 4:52
  SPEAKER_01: And the the you asked about how we're different from Amazon, and the the reality of that is that we are um Amazon is a what we'd call like a sales channel, right?
• 5:02
  SPEAKER_01: Our a sales partner or a retailer.
• 5:05
  SPEAKER_01: Uh we have several terms we'll use, but we distribute to Amazon.
• 5:09
  SPEAKER_01: So we're not in competition with Amazon, and not directly anyway.
• 5:14
  SPEAKER_01: Um, so we can get you there.
• 5:17
  SPEAKER_01: You do not have to use us to go to Amazon.
• 5:19
  SPEAKER_01: You can go to all our other uh sales channels without having to deal with that, uh, or without um crossing streams, I guess.
• 5:28
  SPEAKER_01: And uh so yeah, we we everything in everything on our side is very opt-in.
• 5:33
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 5:34
  SPEAKER_00: That makes sense.
• 5:35
  SPEAKER_00: So for for somebody who let's say they want to use draft to digital and Amazon, would it make more sense?
• 5:43
  SPEAKER_00: And I feel like I'm getting really granular with these questions really fast.
• 5:46
  SPEAKER_01: No, you know, that's fine.
• 5:47
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, but would it make more sense for them?
• 5:49
  SPEAKER_00: Like, should they just go Amazon direct and then go draft to digital for everything but Amazon, or just go draft to digital and include Amazon in what you guys are doing?
• 5:58
  SPEAKER_01: You know, I actually always recommend uh you're you're typically gonna make more money from Amazon if you go to Amazon directly.
• 6:08
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 6:09
  SPEAKER_01: Um you know, we're there.
• 6:11
  SPEAKER_01: Uh so I I tell people a good strategy is like go to Amazon Direct.
• 6:14
  SPEAKER_01: You can use us to reach everywhere else.
• 6:16
  SPEAKER_01: You can go to any given retailer that we reach direct if you want.
• 6:21
  SPEAKER_01: You can even use us to convert your book so that you can upload it to those other retailers.
• 6:25
  SPEAKER_01: Like, there's no charge for any of that.
• 6:27
  SPEAKER_02: Okay.
• 6:27
  SPEAKER_01: Um, we we actually don't have fees for anything right now.
• 6:31
  SPEAKER_01: There's the everything is a royalty split.
• 6:34
  SPEAKER_01: So we take like around a 15% cut of your royalty um once it's all said and done.
• 6:42
  SPEAKER_01: So um, you know, the strategy I recommend a lot of times is go ahead and go direct to to KDP.
• 6:48
  SPEAKER_01: Don't do select.
• 6:49
  SPEAKER_01: If you do KDP select, that means you're exclusive to Amazon.
• 6:53
  SPEAKER_01: You can't sell anywhere else.
• 6:54
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 6:55
  SPEAKER_01: But uh, you know, if you're wanting to use the wide strategy, go straight to Amazon.
• 6:59
  SPEAKER_01: You're gonna make the most money.
• 7:01
  SPEAKER_01: They tend to promote uh the stuff that's that's uh distributed through them first.
• 7:05
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but you can then go to everyone else through us.
• 7:09
  SPEAKER_01: We're just sort of a convenient way to reach everyone at once and make sure your book is in line with their specifications and requirements.
• 7:16
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 7:17
  SPEAKER_01: So, you know, I I done I distribute a few of my books to Amazon through D2D.
• 7:23
  SPEAKER_01: Uh most of my books are are direct, but every now and then, like a lot of my nonfiction stuff, I just go ahead and distribute through D2D to Amazon because I don't know, it's a different tone for me, a different you know, there's something different about those books.
• 7:36
  SPEAKER_01: Uh and it's just easier for me to just broadcast out all at once and be able to see all my sales in one place.
• 7:43
  SPEAKER_01: And you know, and I know that you know, I don't have to fut around with, you know, the reason I don't distribute to, for example, to like uh Barnes and Noble or or Apple Books is you know, Apple in particular, this may not be the case anymore, actually.
• 7:56
  SPEAKER_01: Now I think about it, but for a long while, the only way to get into the Apple store was you had to have a Mac, which I have, you had to use their special little formatting tool and then go right.
• 8:06
  SPEAKER_01: I don't know if it's still like that or not, to be honest with you, but probably it was so much easier to go through D D.
• 8:12
  SPEAKER_01: And by the way, Apple agrees, like they they frequently they actually we're sort of a preferred vendor with them, like they they like for people to come to them through us okay because we take care of all the customer support stuff.
• 8:26
  SPEAKER_01: Uh that's the thing we're most known for at D D is our author support.
• 8:32
  SPEAKER_01: Sometimes we have people who aren't even our customers coming to us for author support.
• 8:36
  SPEAKER_01: Don't do that, we can't help you.
• 8:38
  SPEAKER_01: But uh, you know, we we've got such a reputation for helping authors in this in this segment that you know we'll have people actually approach us and ask us questions about things, and they're not even our author.
• 8:48
  SPEAKER_00: That is awesome.
• 8:51
  SPEAKER_00: So, how does okay, getting in uh keeping with the granular geeky, nerdy questions theme that I've got going on here?
• 9:00
  SPEAKER_00: Um does draft to digital jive with Ingram Spark.
• 9:05
  SPEAKER_01: So we use um Ingram Spark is our print partner for DDD Print.
• 9:10
  SPEAKER_01: Uh and again, it's another one of those, like you can use us to go to Ingram or you can uh go direct to Ingram is fine either way.
• 9:18
  SPEAKER_01: Um it's a little different on the print side.
• 9:21
  SPEAKER_01: On the print side, it's sort of you're all in or you're all out.
• 9:23
  SPEAKER_01: There's no like okay, you know, selecting uh retailers.
• 9:27
  SPEAKER_01: But um, you know, in in terms of comparison, I mean, we're it's the same service.
• 9:32
  SPEAKER_01: Now you get you know our customer service support, whereas getting support from Ingram can be, we'll just say challenge.
• 9:40
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, I've heard that.
• 9:41
  SPEAKER_01: Many, many uh yeah, and you know, they've recently eliminated their like setup fee and and change uh well, they still have change fees.
• 9:49
  SPEAKER_01: Like we have to charge a change fee if you if you distribute to this is for print only for ebooks.
• 9:55
  SPEAKER_01: There's never any charge to change your book or update it or upload it.
• 9:59
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but on the print side, there's built-in uh fees when you make changes.
• 10:05
  SPEAKER_01: We cover all authors for one change for free every 90 days.
• 10:11
  SPEAKER_01: Um and uh so if you can hold out for 90 days to make your changes, you can get it for free.
• 10:16
  SPEAKER_01: But otherwise it's like 25 bucks.
• 10:18
  SPEAKER_01: Um, if something's really wrong, I've I've made I've made the kind of mistakes that that it's worth paying 25 bucks to fix.
• 10:27
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 10:27
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, but yeah, we're so used to as as indie authors, we're so used to um that sort of, you know, everything's free.
• 10:36
  SPEAKER_01: You know, on the ebook side, everything is free.
• 10:38
  SPEAKER_01: But on the print side, there's there's overhead.
• 10:40
  SPEAKER_01: Um, don't ask me why there's overhead on making changes to a digital file, but there is.
• 10:46
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, so you know, we'll we'll cover you for one of those.
• 10:48
  SPEAKER_01: If you if you go direct through uh Ingram Spark, you'll have to pay whatever they deem uh you pay uh when you make those changes.
• 10:56
  SPEAKER_01: But you know, they there are certain advantages though.
• 11:00
  SPEAKER_00: There's some certain advantages to going direct to Ingram Spark.
• 11:03
  SPEAKER_01: There could at the moment uh this will change because we're new in this game with Ingram.
• 11:10
  SPEAKER_01: We uh we launched this as of March uh this year.
• 11:15
  SPEAKER_01: Uh it was in beta for like four years, uh but we launched it full out and and we're you know we're growing, we're seeing it grow.
• 11:23
  SPEAKER_01: Um right now it's sort of a you know, we we have momentum going, but they're they're still we're still new to them.
• 11:32
  SPEAKER_01: So they don't yet realize what's coming.
• 11:35
  SPEAKER_01: You know, we got like a million plus books uh that are that are in our catalog, and our authors are starting to discover how easy it is to just click a button and convert their ebook into a print manuscript and you know get it going.
• 11:49
  SPEAKER_01: And uh so we're watching that number grow.
• 11:52
  SPEAKER_01: And as that number grows, we get more um clout with okay.
• 11:57
  SPEAKER_01: So that right now there are certain things they offer uh that we're not yet able to offer uh in terms of I think there's things like maybe some trim sizes and things like that that that we can't offer yet, but you know, most of it is about cost, uh like print costs and things like that.
• 12:13
  SPEAKER_01: So, you know, we offer you can get your um you can get your author copies through from us, and we now have print partners in regions outside of like North North America.
• 12:25
  SPEAKER_01: So uh that was a problem when we first started, but now you can get them because it would be like, you know, I'm in Australia and I order a print copy, one copy cost me$150 because you know to get it sent to me, uh you know, whatever the freight charges are.
• 12:41
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, but now we have printers in these regions so that we can get you your books for a lot less money for comparable to what you would pay in the US.
• 12:49
  SPEAKER_00: So are there what are the main places in the world where you don't have printers or some kind of partnerships?
• 12:55
  SPEAKER_00: Like what would be the hardest places in the world for authors to get print copies of their books?
• 13:01
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, there's certain regions it's just gonna be difficult to get print copies regardless of who you go through, like China is one of these.
• 13:07
  SPEAKER_01: Um I think we're pretty we've pretty well covered things.
• 13:12
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, it I don't nothing c comes to mind.
• 13:15
  SPEAKER_01: Uh there are there are of course going to be certain regions where it's maybe it's cost prohibitive, or there could even be legal issues that prevent that prevent uh someone from being able to do that.
• 13:26
  SPEAKER_01: But uh for the most part, I think it's pretty well open.
• 13:29
  SPEAKER_01: I think we cover Europe and Asia pretty well.
• 13:31
  SPEAKER_01: And uh maybe the you know, maybe Africa might have some limitations on that, but it's that's all going to be governmental rather than reach.
• 13:42
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 13:42
  SPEAKER_01: Um, so yeah, that's it's hard to see it's hard to answer questions like that because you know this landscape changes pretty rapidly, and there's things yeah I don't know I'm not privy to.
• 13:51
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 13:52
  SPEAKER_01: So uh, but for the most part, what I do know is that we've we're pretty open, like it's pretty global at this point.
• 13:59
  SPEAKER_01: Anywhere Ingram can reach for sure, uh, we can get your your books.
• 14:03
  SPEAKER_01: That's just a given.
• 14:05
  SPEAKER_01: And then our print partners outside of the Ingram network cover the rest.
• 14:09
  SPEAKER_00: So well, this is a good segue into into something that I definitely wanted to to chat about for a moment.
• 14:16
  SPEAKER_00: So up on the draft digital blog, you had a recent within the last few weeks, I don't, I think it was last month, you had the a really good post uh up there.
• 14:26
  SPEAKER_00: And you've got a lot of great posts up there, by the way.
• 14:28
  SPEAKER_00: But uh you had a really, really insightful post about diversifying your writing income.
• 14:33
  SPEAKER_00: And that's something that is super, super important for people who want to make a living writing, and for so many reasons.
• 14:39
  SPEAKER_00: But I'm wondering if you can uh just give us kind of a breakdown of why is this such an important thing for us to think about diversification and what are some ways that we can begin to do that?
• 14:50
  SPEAKER_00: Maybe for somebody who's just put a book on Amazon and that's it.
• 14:54
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 14:55
  SPEAKER_01: Um we're we're of course we're big proponents of wide, wide distribution.
• 15:02
  SPEAKER_01: And the the biggest reason is you just you will never know when Amazon or anyone else is going to change the way they do things.
• 15:11
  SPEAKER_01: Amazon in particular, they've Amazon's done it before.
• 15:14
  SPEAKER_01: Um example, I think I get this example in in the post you're talking about, but the but Amazon at one point, you know, they they purchased uh Audible.
• 15:23
  SPEAKER_01: And uh for those of us who started our accounts early with Audible, you know, the originally it was like we get 60% and Amazon got, you know, Audible got 40.
• 15:33
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 15:33
  SPEAKER_01: And then they flipped that on its ear, and now we get 40 that we also have to split with the narrator, uh, if we're using ACX to find a narrator.
• 15:42
  SPEAKER_01: So yeah, you know, I don't particularly think that's fair given that you know you don't have a product to sell.
• 15:48
  SPEAKER_01: If I didn't produce the book, I have to cover all the expenses and everything.
• 15:52
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, but they did it, and there's no fighting that because that's Amazon for you.
• 15:57
  SPEAKER_01: So, you know, the big worry is things like the global fund is has been uh dwindling recently, you know, and people are getting paid less uh in KDP Select than they were before.
• 16:09
  SPEAKER_01: Amazon could at any point, you know, yank that out of existence.
• 16:13
  SPEAKER_01: So that's one cautionary tale.
• 16:15
  SPEAKER_01: But you know, in terms of diversification of your income, um, you know, I I I may have used this example too.
• 16:24
  SPEAKER_01: It's one of my favorites.
• 16:25
  SPEAKER_01: I stole it from my friend Mick Mick Hanloser, uh, who used to work for Unilever.
• 16:30
  SPEAKER_01: And it's uh it's about Lipton tea.
• 16:33
  SPEAKER_01: And Lipton tea.
• 16:34
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I love that story.
• 16:35
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and so and just to recap, and you can go find the post because I probably do a much of articulating it there.
• 16:43
  SPEAKER_01: But uh, but the idea there is you know, Lipton tea doesn't source tea from one source, it sources tea from all over the globe, and it blends to produce a consistent taste for its iced teas.
• 16:57
  SPEAKER_01: And so if there is something like a drought or blight or something that that knocks out a tea crop in, say, you know, Indonesia, um, they can withdraw that tea from the mix and it still tastes the same, it's still a consistent product.
• 17:12
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, and I my argument is that you we should be thinking that way in terms of our income.
• 17:17
  SPEAKER_01: Like if if we have multiple streams of income, if anything happens in this business, you know, Amazon decides to make a change or AI uh emerges to start, you know, competing with us or whatever.
• 17:30
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, now um you've got yourself covered a little more.
• 17:34
  SPEAKER_01: And one of the, I'll be honest, one of the most brilliant people I know uh at this is uh Joanna Penn from the Creative Penn podcast.
• 17:43
  SPEAKER_01: Um, you know, I was in London a couple of weeks ago, and she and I had a whole conversation about what she's doing with direct sales.
• 17:50
  SPEAKER_01: And I've seen arguments that, you know, of course she can do better in direct sales because she already has a platform and you know, a readership.
• 17:58
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but I think what she's doing is pretty remarkable, and and it's in the name of this diversification of income.
• 18:04
  SPEAKER_01: Like she doesn't just sell uh books, she sells ancillary products, you know, she sells things like you know, not just t-shirts and and you know, this the sort of thing we're used to, but like she's found a company that does actual box sets, like a cardboard, you know, box with her artwork and everything on it, and everything is uh is is in there in place, and that's a physical box set.
• 18:29
  SPEAKER_01: Uh she's she does um stickers, of course.
• 18:33
  SPEAKER_01: She does all that stuff.
• 18:34
  SPEAKER_01: At any rate, she's she's been remarkable at that.
• 18:37
  SPEAKER_01: I think that's exactly the way we should all be thinking.
• 18:40
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, it's kind of funny.
• 18:41
  SPEAKER_01: I had a conversation with someone recently about um this, we'll just say the the kind of fake it till you make it idea, right?
• 18:49
  SPEAKER_01: And that's a that was always a really popular concept.
• 18:52
  SPEAKER_01: I think everybody kind of took took the wrong lessons from it.
• 18:55
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, you know, it's not about lying about what you have accomplished, it's not the Instagram version of reality, you know.
• 19:02
  SPEAKER_01: It's it's about uh establishing for yourself that you're gonna operate by the same standards and rules that say the quote professionals do, right?
• 19:13
  SPEAKER_01: When I started writing and publishing on my own, like I came out of a traditional deal that kind of just fell apart.
• 19:20
  SPEAKER_01: And uh when I decided to self-publish, my determination was that book was gonna be uh indistinguishable from anything you'd find in Barnes and Noble.
• 19:30
  SPEAKER_01: And so I put a lot of energy and effort into the cover design and the you know, the back cover copy and the you know, the I did the best I could do with editing.
• 19:40
  SPEAKER_01: Um, you know, and the and I had no money when I started, and I had no way to pay anyone to do it.
• 19:44
  SPEAKER_01: So this was all on me.
• 19:46
  SPEAKER_01: But I made sure that when that book hit hit the the uh shelves, as it were, virtual or otherwise, you know, it was it was indistinguishable from what you could get from, say, Wars and Scott Card or Neil Gaiman or you know, anyone else.
• 20:00
  SPEAKER_01: And so um that attitude has carried over into every aspect of this business for me.
• 20:06
  SPEAKER_01: I think that's exactly the attitude that every author needs, because you're you're producing something that you know there are expectations on what this thing is, yeah.
• 20:16
  SPEAKER_01: And if you're not meeting those expectations, you are losing this fight, especially now, you know, because it's really interesting.
• 20:23
  SPEAKER_01: Um AI, uh I know this is the second time I've brought it up.
• 20:27
  SPEAKER_01: If you want, if you're having a drinking game, this is the one.
• 20:30
  SPEAKER_01: AI is where you take a drink.
• 20:32
  SPEAKER_01: But um the, you know, as AI has has kind of emerged and people are starting starting to discover that they can produce a book in like 10 minutes or whatever, um, and we can discuss that.
• 20:44
  SPEAKER_01: But you know, there was a there was always a a trend in self-publishing uh for rapid release.
• 20:51
  SPEAKER_01: That was the secret sauce to success.
• 20:54
  SPEAKER_01: And I think I am arguing these days that um it's the things have changed uh in such a way that rapid release is now more of a liability than an asset because and that's the nature of this business, right?
• 21:08
  SPEAKER_01: Things like this change.
• 21:09
  SPEAKER_01: The stuff that worked five years ago may not work at all now, um, or it may cycle back again.
• 21:16
  SPEAKER_01: But you know, the folks who are rapid releasing now are the AI AI crowd.
• 21:20
  SPEAKER_01: And so they're they're producing books.
• 21:22
  SPEAKER_01: Some of them are better than what these people were producing before.
• 21:27
  SPEAKER_01: You know, let's give credit where it's due.
• 21:30
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, some of them are just, you know, hot, wet garbage, you know, burning in a dumpster somewhere.
• 21:36
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but you know, that's that's the nature of that as well.
• 21:40
  SPEAKER_01: So what's happening now though is that there's a sort of assumption that if you're rapid releasing, you're using AI.
• 21:46
  SPEAKER_01: So what was always a strength for me, which is you know, I've written books like I've literally written books, like I have a book called 30 Day Author, but I mean, I would write a book in two weeks, I would write a book in I wrote a book.
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_01: In one day.
• 22:01
  SPEAKER_01: And it's one of my best selling books.
• 22:03
  SPEAKER_01: And it's not something I'll ever do again.
• 22:05
  SPEAKER_01: But it was a I wanted to see, can I do it?
• 22:07
  SPEAKER_01: And I could.
• 22:08
  SPEAKER_01: And so I got known, you know, as being very fast at this and being very, you know, good at it.
• 22:14
  SPEAKER_01: But now that's not such an advantage anymore.
• 22:17
  SPEAKER_01: So my my strategy now is to pull back a little and adjust my strategy and you know, slow down, uh, do a different type of book and see see what happens.
• 22:28
  SPEAKER_01: So you just diverse the whole diversification thing to loop back around to where we started on this.
• 22:34
  SPEAKER_01: Um, you can afford to experiment with that sort of thing, with how often, you know, how quickly you release a book and how quickly you can write it.
• 22:42
  SPEAKER_01: You can afford to experiment with all that if you have diversified your income so that you know it's not dependent on rapid release.
• 22:50
  SPEAKER_01: You don't want your your author business to be dependent on a single strategy.
• 22:54
  SPEAKER_01: You don't want to be dependent on a single sales channel.
• 22:57
  SPEAKER_01: You know, that's that's the whole eggs in one basket idea.
• 23:00
  SPEAKER_01: We've been warned about it our whole lives.
• 23:02
  SPEAKER_01: This is the reality of it.
• 23:03
  SPEAKER_01: You know, wanna you want to spread yourself as far and wide as possible.
• 23:07
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, appeal to as many people as possible.
• 23:09
  SPEAKER_01: That doesn't mean killing yourself over it.
• 23:11
  SPEAKER_01: It just means, you know, have a strategy so that when this region's tea leaves are no longer available, the tea still tastes the same.
• 23:20
  SPEAKER_00: Hey, a big thanks to today's sponsor, Vellum.
• 23:23
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• 23:27
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• 23:33
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• 23:39
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• 23:40
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• 23:47
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• 23:50
  SPEAKER_00: I use it all the time.
• 23:51
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• 23:58
  SPEAKER_00: But I absolutely love Vellum.
• 24:00
  SPEAKER_00: And one of the cool things that they do with Vellum software is they let you play with your book's formatting and work on your book to your heart's content.
• 24:07
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• 24:11
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• 24:20
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• 24:24
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• 24:30
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• 24:32
  SPEAKER_00: I use it all the time.
• 24:33
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• 24:36
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• 24:36
  SPEAKER_00: Trivellum.com slash daily.
• 24:40
  SPEAKER_00: What do you feel like is the difference maker between authors who are successful at this game and authors who are not?
• 24:47
  SPEAKER_00: Is it is it a is it a matter of basically thinking like an entrepreneur, being assertive, being willing to change with the times and keep up with stuff?
• 24:58
  SPEAKER_00: Because it's not really a matter of of just writing quality.
• 25:02
  SPEAKER_00: Correct.
• 25:02
  SPEAKER_00: Because there are a lot of authors who are they're not very successful business-wise, but they're amazing authors.
• 25:08
  SPEAKER_00: And likewise, there are a lot of people who are really successful financially as authors, but people may not really look at their writing as it's that great.
• 25:18
  SPEAKER_00: So what's what's really the diff the difference maker there?
• 25:21
  SPEAKER_01: Uh you know, first the first bull whose horns we have to seize is the definition of success there.
• 25:28
  SPEAKER_01: Because um, and I think there is a sort of generally accepted definition of success that is mostly financial based, you know.
• 25:36
  SPEAKER_01: But um, to be honest, I I know authors whom I consider successful, who consider themselves successful, who aren't necessarily living on you know, custom-built catamarans uh sailing the seas, but there is that crowd that of those that are.
• 25:54
  SPEAKER_01: So the start is figure out what success is going to mean to you.
• 25:57
  SPEAKER_01: That's such a that's such a like glossy, you know, entrepreneurial kind of answer, but um it's important it's a reality, it's very important because you know, depending on the standards by which I measure my own career, I could be, I could just decimate myself uh and just make myself depressed over being a quote failure because I'm not living in on that catamaran or in that cuss castle I had brought over brick by brick, you know.
• 26:27
  SPEAKER_01: Um and so, you know, if that's my measure of success, then I failed.
• 26:32
  SPEAKER_01: But my measure of success, I have a goal that I stole straight off of um uh Neil Gaiman, frankly.
• 26:39
  SPEAKER_01: Uh he gave a speech I quote all the time.
• 26:41
  SPEAKER_01: Anyone who's listened to me for any of the listeners, did the make good art speech, the make good art speech.
• 26:46
  SPEAKER_01: That's that's part of it, I think.
• 26:47
  SPEAKER_01: That it was the speech to the College of the Arts, right?
• 26:50
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, and he says um, you know, he had a goal.
• 26:53
  SPEAKER_01: Uh his goal was to be uh writer of of good books and good stories, supporting himself with his words.
• 27:00
  SPEAKER_01: And that's I write that goal for myself every single day.
• 27:03
  SPEAKER_01: I'm a I am a writer of good books and good stories, supporting myself with my words.
• 27:08
  SPEAKER_01: That is the definition I used for my own success.
• 27:11
  SPEAKER_01: If I can support myself with my writing, then I'm I'm successful.
• 27:16
  SPEAKER_01: I'm currently living in a house that books built the way the way I describe it.
• 27:20
  SPEAKER_01: We did several years on the road with like RV life and van life, um, paid for by books.
• 27:27
  SPEAKER_01: You know, uh you know you could argue, uh, I'm not funny, I'm not as financially uh well off as I'd like to be, but I can't, it's hard to argue with uh that I haven't met my definition of success.
• 27:41
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 27:42
  SPEAKER_01: And so I'm I'm I'm happy with that.
• 27:45
  SPEAKER_01: And you know, I have ambition, so I want to grow that.
• 27:48
  SPEAKER_01: And I think uh the difference between success and failure is, you know, are you growing?
• 27:54
  SPEAKER_01: And what are you doing to grow?
• 27:56
  SPEAKER_01: You know, what is your strategy for growth?
• 27:58
  SPEAKER_01: And so whatever that means to you, by the way, you know, I I know a lot of of authors.
• 28:04
  SPEAKER_01: I met uh an author at a um I was speaking at Comic Palooza in Houston, and an author came to me.
• 28:11
  SPEAKER_01: We we all a bunch of us went out to dinner that night.
• 28:15
  SPEAKER_01: She writes exclusively, exclusively for Kindle Vella.
• 28:19
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 28:20
  SPEAKER_01: It's the only platform she publishes to.
• 28:23
  SPEAKER_01: It's a serial platform, it's the only writing she does, and she makes enough money to, you know, outside of her day job, she's able to pay for her kids', you know, extracurricular activities and pay for her car and pay, you know, she's she's supporting herself in that manner.
• 28:41
  SPEAKER_01: And um, you know, that's not enough for me, uh, but it is absolutely enough for her.
• 28:47
  SPEAKER_01: So she's a big advocate of it.
• 28:49
  SPEAKER_01: So, you know, we have different definitions of success, but how could I possibly argue that she's not a successful author?
• 28:55
  SPEAKER_00: So see, that that is really, really important because I I also think as writers and as creative people, we we always compare ourselves with others.
• 29:04
  SPEAKER_00: I think that's just human nature, but particularly there's something about writers where we're always comparing ourselves.
• 29:11
  SPEAKER_00: Maybe it's because it's so easy to do that with Amazon rankings and reviews, and there's all kinds of metrics that people use to gauge success.
• 29:18
  SPEAKER_00: So I think this this might be the most important, uh, one of the most important things we could ever ask ourselves.
• 29:24
  SPEAKER_01: De defining that level of success and what that means for us specifically, like really and no, you need to know up front though, and keep this in mind all the time is that defining success is not a one and done deal.
• 29:39
  SPEAKER_01: If you uh you know, so you know, when I first started, success for me was I want to make ten thousand dollars a month.
• 29:47
  SPEAKER_01: And at a point where I hit that, um it was like great, uh that's amazing.
• 29:54
  SPEAKER_01: It's not enough for what I want to do, right?
• 29:57
  SPEAKER_01: You know, um now I want this other thing, and I stopped focusing on the dollar amount um long ago because the dollar amount really doesn't matter.
• 30:06
  SPEAKER_01: It's you know, money is a weird thing.
• 30:09
  SPEAKER_01: It's it's sort of this, you know, you exchange money to to shortcut time in a lot of instances, right?
• 30:16
  SPEAKER_01: Or or to shortcut uh a lack of some skill or ability, you know, like I'm I'm I've done some coding and programming in my life, but I I couldn't create uh Apple's iOS for iPhone, right?
• 30:30
  SPEAKER_01: And I I couldn't build that device, but I could give you money and you can use your knowledge and everything to to provide that for me.
• 30:37
  SPEAKER_01: So that's that's how money works for us, but it's it's a terrible metric for success because it's constantly moving goalposts.
• 30:44
  SPEAKER_01: So, what we really are talking about when we talk about wealth is not money, we're talking about the ability to do and have and be what we want.
• 30:52
  SPEAKER_01: That's what we're really talking about.
• 30:55
  SPEAKER_01: So, as an author, like things could fall apart for me today, you know.
• 31:01
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, my my whole life could come crashing down, I could lose the house, lose, just bought two new vehicles.
• 31:06
  SPEAKER_01: We could lose both of those.
• 31:07
  SPEAKER_01: I could find myself sleeping on my mom's couch, you know, down in the South Texas, and uh and starting completely from scratch, um, I could lose everything that I have used as a metric for my success.
• 31:21
  SPEAKER_01: And I would have to start from zero, but starting from there, I can define success a lot lower, you know.
• 31:29
  SPEAKER_01: So now my goal is I'm gonna start writing again, and I'm gonna make enough to get off this couch and have an apartment.
• 31:36
  SPEAKER_01: And if that's you know, if that's the the first step, that's the first step.
• 31:40
  SPEAKER_01: So, you know, it's it's a flexible thing.
• 31:42
  SPEAKER_01: And you should periodically review your metric and see where you are, you know, see what see where you're landing, how close are you to accomplishing what you thought, and how close is what you thought you wanted to what you want now?
• 31:57
  SPEAKER_01: Because what we want changes, everything evolves.
• 32:00
  SPEAKER_02: Yep.
• 32:02
  SPEAKER_00: Man, that's that's there's a lot of wisdom right there.
• 32:05
  SPEAKER_00: So I would suggest anybody listening, go back like the last five minutes and replay this part of the conversation.
• 32:10
  SPEAKER_00: I guess it's I think it's important.
• 32:14
  SPEAKER_00: It really is, and it also depends on on things like where do you live?
• 32:18
  SPEAKER_00: Because somebody who lives in New York City is going to be very different than somebody who lives in rural Missouri.
• 32:23
  SPEAKER_00: So I live in I'm outside of St.
• 32:25
  SPEAKER_00: Louis.
• 32:25
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, those are two very different cost of living places.
• 32:28
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 32:28
  SPEAKER_01: I remember um several years ago, like uh seven or eight years ago, nine years ago, uh, I got interviewed for a role with Comedy Central.
• 32:41
  SPEAKER_01: And I did this video interview with them, you know, back when it was still Skype and not Zoom.
• 32:46
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 32:47
  SPEAKER_01: And, you know, I got pretty far in that process.
• 32:50
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, but one of the questions they asked me was my salary expectations.
• 32:54
  SPEAKER_01: And I was coming out of a software job where I was making like, you know, 70 a year.
• 32:59
  SPEAKER_01: And I and I had said, you know, well, I'm hoping to make at least 100,000.
• 33:03
  SPEAKER_01: And they're like, sir, 100,000.
• 33:07
  SPEAKER_01: Sure, yeah, you we can pay you as little as a hundred thousand if that's what you really want.
• 33:13
  SPEAKER_01: Like what?
• 33:13
  SPEAKER_01: They're talking, you know, like half a million dollar salary.
• 33:17
  SPEAKER_01: And uh, so uh I did not land that job, uh, but uh, you know, it changed my perspective, like, you know, because that was they're living in Manhattan, you know, they're in Times Square, you know, they're they're or wherever.
• 33:31
  SPEAKER_01: I don't actually know where their headquarters are, but I know it's in Manhattan.
• 33:35
  SPEAKER_01: But uh, you know, I you know, coming at that from my perspective of this guy who lived in Missouri City, Texas at the time and uh made$70,000 with a lot of money.
• 33:48
  SPEAKER_01: Uh suddenly I had this epiphany that, you know, I I felt accomplished.
• 33:54
  SPEAKER_01: I had done well.
• 33:55
  SPEAKER_01: I was doing comparison to my friends and family, I was banking, you know, and uh and then the realization that all that is pathetic depending on where you're standing.
• 34:06
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, you know, it's true.
• 34:08
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, it's true, yeah.
• 34:11
  SPEAKER_00: And even like right now, if you look at I was reading an article a couple days ago about the some details about the writer's strike, which at this point has been going on for what, a couple of months or something.
• 34:20
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, yeah.
• 34:21
  SPEAKER_00: And I was just curious.
• 34:22
  SPEAKER_00: So I just Googled, okay, how much does the average TV writer make?
• 34:27
  SPEAKER_00: And I think most writers who are especially in the early years of their journey would look at something like that as okay, that's a goal to strive for, like writing for a TV show or like being on SNL or writing for Jimmy Kimmel or or some Netflix show or whatever.
• 34:48
  SPEAKER_00: And it was interesting because I was looking at the numbers and I don't remember what they were, and it and sure it did varies greatly according to the show and the writer.
• 34:56
  SPEAKER_00: But I was like, oh wow, you know, they really don't make that much.
• 35:00
  SPEAKER_00: Um, comparatively, most of them.
• 35:02
  SPEAKER_00: Plus, they're living in like LA or New York or whatever.
• 35:05
  SPEAKER_00: And you kind of go, wow, you know, having like freedom of my time and you know, having ghostwriting clients and having book sales and having this other stuff, you know, like I I live a pretty sweet life.
• 35:17
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah.
• 35:18
  SPEAKER_01: So it's all relative.
• 35:19
  SPEAKER_01: It is relative, yeah.
• 35:21
  SPEAKER_01: That free I would much I I'm gonna just put it right out there, uh, and universe if you're listening.
• 35:27
  SPEAKER_01: Um I would much rather have the two things I would I would value over any form of wealth would be uh my sort of autonomy and freedom of and liberty of time and and anything else, you know, just being able to do what I choose to do.
• 35:45
  SPEAKER_01: Yep.
• 35:46
  SPEAKER_01: Uh and just peace.
• 35:48
  SPEAKER_01: Like just I would sell it all, I would give away everything.
• 35:52
  SPEAKER_01: I would live in the dirt if I had a sense of peace.
• 35:56
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, because that that's really what we're after.
• 35:59
  SPEAKER_01: Like if you forget accolades, forget best seller, you know, status, forget houses and cars, and I don't care who you are, and you can argue with me all day long, but I'm right.
• 36:11
  SPEAKER_01: You are not after the the castle you imported from Europe.
• 36:15
  SPEAKER_01: You are after a sense of peace.
• 36:18
  SPEAKER_01: If you don't have a sense of peace, it doesn't matter where you live, and it doesn't matter what you know what you're doing.
• 36:23
  SPEAKER_01: You know, you can have the greatest job in the world, and you're you if you feel miserable, it won't matter to you.
• 36:29
  SPEAKER_01: Um so that that's a very important thing.
• 36:31
  SPEAKER_01: I think we don't spend enough time searching for that that sort of inner peace.
• 36:36
  SPEAKER_00: It's like that scene at the end of Citizen Kane, my favorite movie of all time.
• 36:40
  SPEAKER_00: People make fun of me for it.
• 36:41
  SPEAKER_00: But I stand by my assessment.
• 36:43
  SPEAKER_00: It's the greatest movie of all time.
• 36:44
  SPEAKER_00: That scene, you know, where it's the cameras painting all over his castle full of possessions.
• 36:50
  SPEAKER_01: Worldly wealth, yeah.
• 36:51
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and the very thing that he wanted his whole life was just love, you know, symbolized by the sled they threw into the fire.
• 36:57
  SPEAKER_00: Sorry for spoilers, but the movie's like 75 years old at this point or something.
• 37:01
  SPEAKER_00: I was just gonna watch it this evening, too.
• 37:04
  SPEAKER_00: Like, oh man, trying to figure out what yeah, Rosebud.
• 37:09
  SPEAKER_00: But yeah, it is kind of like that.
• 37:10
  SPEAKER_01: You can have all the accolades of possessions and awards and bestsellers, but if you don't have joy and peace in your life and people who love you, what's really the yeah, and come on, we see examples of this every single day.
• 37:22
  SPEAKER_01: Totally just look at Hollywood for 30 seconds, and you're you're gonna see like there are so many people who are who have like literally, I know people who would murder for half of what some of these people have.
• 37:36
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and they're all so not all, but I mean, they're miserable, they're miserable to the point where they want to make everyone else miserable, right?
• 37:45
  SPEAKER_01: And uh, you know, and you're seeing this all over.
• 37:48
  SPEAKER_01: Um, yeah.
• 37:50
  SPEAKER_01: So anyway, and that's a bit off topic, uh, the whole thing.
• 37:52
  SPEAKER_01: No, but that's I think it's right on I do not have inner peace.
• 37:56
  SPEAKER_01: I'm just gonna let you know, I'm not I am not your guru.
• 37:59
  SPEAKER_01: Uh I am uh I suffer from uh I've discovered this morning, I I've determined, I've self-diagnosed that I suffer from uh seasonal affective disorder for summertime, uh, which is a very unusual way because you know, every summer, and it's the heat and humidity for me.
• 38:16
  SPEAKER_01: Like I it feels oppressive.
• 38:18
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I I start feeling depressed, yeah.
• 38:20
  SPEAKER_01: I get anxious, yeah, I get irritable.
• 38:23
  SPEAKER_01: So that's my particular affliction.
• 38:25
  SPEAKER_00: But are you more of a because I think see, I think that's really interesting.
• 38:29
  SPEAKER_00: Um, the past two years, I have started to become more of a fall and winter person.
• 38:34
  SPEAKER_00: Definitely.
• 38:35
  SPEAKER_00: I really prefer kind of the cold, gloomy snow and all that.
• 38:40
  SPEAKER_00: I I'm not sure why.
• 38:41
  SPEAKER_00: I just have to prefer that more.
• 38:43
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I I mean overcast or sunny doesn't bother me, but I like the cool, crisp, clean air.
• 38:49
  SPEAKER_01: I like, you know, and that's one of the things I enjoyed when we were on the road was you know, we'd go places where I could be in the mountains and hiking or whatever, or we could be, you know, by Lake Michigan and the same thing.
• 39:01
  SPEAKER_01: It was just that I I love being outside and feeling that uh sort of energy of the of the cool fall or spring.
• 39:11
  SPEAKER_01: Either one.
• 39:12
  SPEAKER_01: It's a it I'm more of a fall guy.
• 39:15
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but you know, and I am actually.
• 39:17
  SPEAKER_01: I when I think about it, like yeah, the fall, I'm all about fall.
• 39:20
  SPEAKER_01: I'm that guy.
• 39:21
  SPEAKER_01: I like sitting by a fire, I like indoors or out, by the way.
• 39:25
  SPEAKER_01: Uh I like having a mug or something hot in my hand.
• 39:27
  SPEAKER_01: I like, you know, I like smelling, you know, the smells of fall, you know, which these days is mostly pumpkin spice latte.
• 39:37
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, let's be honest.
• 39:38
  SPEAKER_01: But you know, being by being outdoors, and yeah, it's it's I I'm just that guy, you know.
• 39:44
  SPEAKER_01: And I didn't grow up in the traditional areas where fall was so ritualistically celebrated, like you know, new New England or something like that.
• 39:53
  SPEAKER_01: But I did grow up watching those things on TV, and so that's colored my my perception of what fall means.
• 39:59
  SPEAKER_01: Absolutely.
• 40:00
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I totally relate to it.
• 40:02
  SPEAKER_01: I was born in the fall, yeah.
• 40:04
  SPEAKER_00: Like bring bring it on.
• 40:05
  SPEAKER_00: Let's get rid of the hot summertime and let's just have it be fall and winter all around.
• 40:10
  SPEAKER_00: That's my thing.
• 40:10
  SPEAKER_01: That's my thing.
• 40:11
  SPEAKER_01: I uh I'm holding out hope that Elon Musk is going to discover a planet out there that's fall year-round and I get to go on SpaceX.
• 40:20
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, if somebody's gonna discover it, it would be him.
• 40:22
  SPEAKER_00: If if he can take a break from fighting with Mark Zuckerberg, um that's such a ridiculous.
• 40:28
  SPEAKER_00: Maybe he can find some emotional energy to devote to actual work.
• 40:32
  SPEAKER_01: Several times I have stopped myself from like posting and you know, tagging those guys and saying, Look, I will take you both on.
• 40:41
  SPEAKER_01: We'll beat both your asses, and you just you know give me half of your um your companies when we're done.
• 40:49
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, the cage match thing.
• 40:50
  SPEAKER_01: I'm like, I'm like, what?
• 40:53
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I don't know how how serious any of that is, but there there is a he, you know, Musk is picking fights and stuff, you know.
• 40:59
  SPEAKER_01: So we'll see what happens.
• 41:01
  SPEAKER_01: You know, he and I don't even care anymore.
• 41:03
  SPEAKER_00: He seems to be a good example of a person who obviously has immense wealth, but just kind of seems to be an unhappy person.
• 41:12
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, I don't obviously I don't know him, but he does not seem to be a person who's at peace or really enjoys anything that he really does.
• 41:20
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 41:20
  SPEAKER_01: Um it's hard for me to say.
• 41:22
  SPEAKER_00: And maybe it's maybe that's just a personality thing or something, but it could be.
• 41:26
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, uh, you know, and again, like you said, we don't know the guy.
• 41:30
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, uh we only know this public persona, and that's that's another thing I I wish people would really take to heart is there's there's multiple versions of each of us, right?
• 41:40
  SPEAKER_01: Totally.
• 41:40
  SPEAKER_01: Um, you know, who I am on Twitter is not necessarily who I am, you know, in front of this microphone.
• 41:48
  SPEAKER_01: And who I am right now is not necessarily who I am when the camera gets shut off.
• 41:52
  SPEAKER_01: You know, I mean it's there's gonna be bits and pieces of of us, uh, but it's really in those moments when we're we're just sort of caught unexpected, um surprised by life.
• 42:04
  SPEAKER_01: That's when you start to see who you really are.
• 42:06
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 42:06
  SPEAKER_01: Um you know, and I I make a I make a great effort to, you know, I'm on a sort of lifelong quest to refine myself in such a way that I've become who who I really think I should be.
• 42:18
  SPEAKER_01: And then I fall short of that, and then I get depressed about that.
• 42:21
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I think that's a problem too, though.
• 42:24
  SPEAKER_01: Like, don't don't put those kind of expectations on yourself.
• 42:27
  SPEAKER_01: As a writer, as anything, just you know, uh you don't have to be, if you're a writer and you are dedicated to this and you're dedicated to learning and improving your craft, you know, that's we to loop back around what we were talking about earlier, comparing ourselves.
• 42:42
  SPEAKER_01: Like, don't compare yourself to anybody but yourself, right?
• 42:46
  SPEAKER_01: Figure out what your metric of success is and and how close you are to measuring up to it.
• 42:51
  SPEAKER_01: And don't don't look at Instagram or Twitter or or YouTube or anywhere else to discover how who you should be.
• 42:58
  SPEAKER_01: You already know who you should be.
• 43:00
  SPEAKER_01: Define for yourself who you should be, and then do everything possible to live into that that mold for yourself.
• 43:06
  SPEAKER_01: But don't don't come down on yourself so hard when you fail that you give up on it, you know, because you're gonna fail.
• 43:12
  SPEAKER_01: Just accept that right up front.
• 43:14
  SPEAKER_01: Like I fail all the time, you know, I say and do things all the time that I know I shouldn't say and do.
• 43:19
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and I kick myself over.
• 43:21
  SPEAKER_01: Nobody's a worse critic of me than me, right?
• 43:24
  SPEAKER_01: But you know, there comes a point where I realize, like, yeah, I did that.
• 43:28
  SPEAKER_01: And I can either let that be the defining point of my life, the defining moment of my life, or I can say that happened, and uh now my origin story is I'm moving on from that, and I'm still, as Neil Gaiman put it, I'm still working my way to that mountain.
• 43:45
  SPEAKER_01: Exactly.
• 43:45
  SPEAKER_01: Um, so that's what that's I think real success is that, honestly.
• 43:51
  SPEAKER_01: The you know, looking at your flaws and looking at your failures and saying to yourself, that's that's who I was, but it's Who I am, and it's definitely not who I intend to be.
• 44:03
  SPEAKER_01: And so you're marching forward and you're leaving all that crap behind because that that can't do anything for you but weigh you down.
• 44:11
  SPEAKER_01: It can't it can't help you.
• 44:12
  SPEAKER_01: You know, you can learn from it, that's the best thing you can do with it.
• 44:16
  SPEAKER_01: But if you're carrying it with you, it doesn't it doesn't function in the present.
• 44:21
  SPEAKER_01: You know, it's a it's a dead piece of technology, the past.
• 44:25
  SPEAKER_01: You know, you grow from it, you don't carry it with you.
• 44:29
  SPEAKER_01: Are you sure you're not a guru?
• 44:30
  SPEAKER_01: Because that was really wise and very well said.
• 44:33
  SPEAKER_01: So I am a terrible guru.
• 44:36
  SPEAKER_00: I think that's fantastic.
• 44:38
  SPEAKER_01: I did write a whole book about this kind of stuff, by the way.
• 44:42
  SPEAKER_01: Uh we discussed, I think, before the call, uh uh nonfiction book called Um A Note from the Author.
• 44:48
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 44:49
  SPEAKER_01: And it's really it's funny because it's the whole point of it was I I turned 50 in October last year.
• 44:55
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 44:56
  SPEAKER_01: And so I had this notebook laying around that didn't work for what I originally bought it for.
• 45:02
  SPEAKER_01: And so uh I decided that I would, and then that notebook came to me as a recommendation from Nil Gaiman.
• 45:09
  SPEAKER_01: And uh I'm like, well, I like it, but it's not gonna do what I needed to do.
• 45:13
  SPEAKER_01: But I decided I would save it, and then on my 10th, in my 50th birthday, I would start writing something in it each day.
• 45:21
  SPEAKER_01: And so I did for a hundred, it's 123 pages.
• 45:24
  SPEAKER_01: So I wrote 123 little uh one-page aphorisms, I guess you could call them.
• 45:31
  SPEAKER_01: And uh in the end, I typed it all up.
• 45:33
  SPEAKER_01: So there's probably a ton of typos still in it, uh, frankly.
• 45:36
  SPEAKER_01: But I typed it all up and laid it all out and uh put it out on uh drafted digital and distributed it everywhere.
• 45:43
  SPEAKER_01: So and then you know I I think I priced it reasonably, but it's um Joanna Penn read it and liked it and mentioned it on her show.
• 45:53
  SPEAKER_01: So I saw some that's cool uh love for it for a while there.
• 45:57
  SPEAKER_01: But yeah, it's it's one of those um it's different from most of what I've written, but it's kind of these types of philosophies, you know, the stuff that I've learned or that has occurred to me and that I think people could benefit from, not just authors, it's not just aimed at authors, but um anyway, it's uh it's out there if you want if anyone is interested in it.
• 46:18
  SPEAKER_00: Absolutely.
• 46:18
  SPEAKER_00: I'm I'll grab that as soon as uh we get off this uh this call.
• 46:22
  SPEAKER_00: I do want to ask about uh a couple of questions about your fiction writing.
• 46:25
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 46:26
  SPEAKER_00: Uh and you have a lot of fiction books out there, obviously.
• 46:28
  SPEAKER_00: I do.
• 46:29
  SPEAKER_00: Um I guess my my first question related to this is uh what is your process for a story?
• 46:36
  SPEAKER_00: Now, obviously, you a big part of what you do is you write in series.
• 46:39
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 46:40
  SPEAKER_00: Um that being said though, yeah.
• 46:42
  SPEAKER_00: Um that being said, when you have an idea for a story, are you more of a plotter?
• 46:46
  SPEAKER_00: Are you more of a pantser?
• 46:47
  SPEAKER_00: How do you actually construct the story and then go about filling it?
• 46:52
  SPEAKER_01: I have traditionally been absolutely a pantser.
• 46:54
  SPEAKER_01: And even when I've tried plotting, I ultimately end up panting.
• 46:58
  SPEAKER_01: Um I'm yeah, I'm a discovery writer, uh, to put it in the way Stephen King described it in on writing.
• 47:05
  SPEAKER_01: But uh the my method, I mean uh the process for me, it almost always, almost always starts with a title.
• 47:14
  SPEAKER_01: Um it's just how I think.
• 47:16
  SPEAKER_01: Like I start, I come up with a like what I think of as a great, clever title that inspires an idea, and then I write uh the story to to fit that title.
• 47:27
  SPEAKER_01: And um, and that's done very well for me over the past like you know 10 years or so.
• 47:34
  SPEAKER_01: Like it's uh it's done very well for me.
• 47:36
  SPEAKER_01: Um so I don't I never know what the ending is gonna be.
• 47:40
  SPEAKER_01: I don't know that until I write it.
• 47:42
  SPEAKER_01: Um I just write every day and come back to it.
• 47:46
  SPEAKER_01: And then you uh what I do, one of the things I do is you know, inevitably you're gonna hit what they call that muddy metal, where you've got to a point where all the energy, all the air has gone out of the balloon, and you don't know where to take it next.
• 48:01
  SPEAKER_01: And uh you probably were got to that point kicking and screaming from the previous chapter or two, anyway.
• 48:07
  SPEAKER_01: And so what I do, I stole a process.
• 48:10
  SPEAKER_01: You're gonna you're gonna learn something about me that I think everyone should know is I steal openly from other creative people.
• 48:16
  SPEAKER_01: And it's yeah, that's that that Austin Cleon thing, right?
• 48:20
  SPEAKER_01: Great artist steal.
• 48:22
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but the I stole an idea from Dean Wesley Smith.
• 48:26
  SPEAKER_01: He does something called cycling, where he'll write like 500 words and then he'll cycle back and edit those words and then write the next 500.
• 48:35
  SPEAKER_01: And I'll do something similar to that.
• 48:37
  SPEAKER_01: Um, I do something I call looping, which is uh each day I'll write my words, the next day I'll loop back, re-reread and edit that those words, and then I've got the momentum to carry on and do the the next set.
• 48:53
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 48:53
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, but then when I hit like a muddy middle point, I loop all the way back to the beginning of the book and I rewrite everything from the beginning.
• 49:03
  SPEAKER_01: Not rewrite like I scrap it and rewrite it, but like I edit and do some rewrite.
• 49:08
  SPEAKER_01: Um, because then by the time I get back to the point where I was stalled, not only have I added words and added new ideas and fixed things as I went, but I now I have this massive momentum because I just went through the whole book and I just got to this point, and now it's all so clear to me what needs to happen next, and then I go.
• 49:31
  SPEAKER_01: And then if I hit another uh muddy point, I'll loop back and do it again.
• 49:36
  SPEAKER_01: And you know, sometimes I go to the beginning of the book and sometimes I'll just go to like the next couple of chapters ahead or whatever, especially if I've done the looping several times already.
• 49:46
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, but yeah, I think that, you know, I remember, I remember I took so I'm one of the people who actually my grandmother, my granny, dearest woman in the world to me, uh, before she passed away, still is, even after she passed away.
• 50:02
  SPEAKER_01: But she actually, when I was fresh out of high school, paid for me to to attend, quote unquote, the creative uh the um writer's digest school, which I think is now writers digest university or something like that.
• 50:16
  SPEAKER_01: But they pair you with a mentor, and then you do these assignments, and then you get graded on that, and you're you're producing work as you go.
• 50:24
  SPEAKER_01: And uh, and I remember uh the the eye-rolling adages of things like you know, good writing is really rewriting, you know, and editing is where the writing actually happens.
• 50:36
  SPEAKER_01: And I just remember just brain vomiting every time those things were said, but now I'm like, I get it, I totally get it.
• 50:44
  SPEAKER_01: It is I love writing, I'm very good with words, and I don't know if you noticed, but I I don't there's no hesitation in expression for me.
• 50:56
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but the you know, I'm very good at at that.
• 50:59
  SPEAKER_01: And when I go back and do the editing and rewriting, I I I now get it.
• 51:06
  SPEAKER_01: I have so much more fun going back and reshaping what I've already written because the stories, the key, the you know, the the foundation's already there, all the hard stuff is already done.
• 51:18
  SPEAKER_01: Now I get to do things like, oh, I remember in you know, chapter 40, I I do this reveal.
• 51:23
  SPEAKER_01: Well, I can set that up here, you know, and I can I can lay some Easter eggs in, and and so it'll feel like a surprise, and you know, and it'll feel inevitable, but even though I only thought of it like 30 seconds ago, and you know, I don't do any planning and I don't do any outlining because I'm basically doing all that as I write.
• 51:41
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and so just I think it's really the same process.
• 51:45
  SPEAKER_01: If you're a plotter, you outline your book and you go start writing, and then you kind of tweak the outline as you go.
• 51:52
  SPEAKER_01: Perfectly acceptable, and lots of people do that, do very well at it.
• 51:57
  SPEAKER_01: I'm plotting longhand, is what I'm doing.
• 52:00
  SPEAKER_01: I'm just writing out the foundation of the book, and when I go back, that's when I'm filling it in.
• 52:05
  SPEAKER_01: So I'm just I just really at what I'm doing is writing a really long, really extensive outline, is what I'm doing.
• 52:12
  SPEAKER_01: So that's a long-winded answer for your no, that's it.
• 52:16
  SPEAKER_00: That's exactly that's exactly what I was trying to what I was trying to figure out.
• 52:20
  SPEAKER_00: I I read Dean Wesley Smith's Writing in the Dark or Writing Into the Dark, one of those two book uh two, three years ago.
• 52:29
  SPEAKER_00: And I couldn't really figure out, I wasn't really working on any fiction at that point.
• 52:33
  SPEAKER_00: So no, this is immensely helpful because I think a lot of people feel stressed out by the idea of I've got to figure out my whole book in advance and then writing it is gonna be such a slog.
• 52:42
  SPEAKER_00: But it sounds like that your approach of looping kind of combines the best of all those different approaches into something that really works for you.
• 52:51
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 52:51
  SPEAKER_01: And what it does is I I'm too impatient to sit down.
• 52:54
  SPEAKER_01: I I lose all the energy of a book if I try to sit down and plot it out because I'll get to the end of that and I'm like, okay, that's a great insight.
• 53:02
  SPEAKER_01: It is uh because really it's all about energy, right?
• 53:06
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, uh energy is actually far more important than than money, than time.
• 53:13
  SPEAKER_01: You know, in your energy, if you have all the time in the world, actually, this is in that book, by the way.
• 53:18
  SPEAKER_01: The author's the note from the author.
• 53:20
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, but energy, if you don't, if you have all the time in the world, and we see this all the time, by the way.
• 53:26
  SPEAKER_01: Authors who go full time finally, like they hit it, and so they quit their day jobs and they're writing full time.
• 53:32
  SPEAKER_01: You got all the time in the world, but you're you have poor energy management.
• 53:36
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, it doesn't matter.
• 53:38
  SPEAKER_01: It's all wasted because you're you um if you don't have the energy to to lean in and attack the problem or you know get the work done or you know refine the work and make it better, it doesn't matter that you have you know unlimited time.
• 53:54
  SPEAKER_01: It doesn't matter that you have unlimited money, you know, because you both those things are amazing to have.
• 54:01
  SPEAKER_01: But if you don't have the if you have unlimited time and unlimited money, but you don't have the energy to so much as get out of bed in the morning, you are lost.
• 54:08
  SPEAKER_01: It's just lost.
• 54:09
  SPEAKER_01: It's and and so maybe there's a sort of uh trinity of of important ideas there.
• 54:16
  SPEAKER_01: Um, that certainly there is, but I think we discount energy uh quite a bit, you know.
• 54:23
  SPEAKER_01: And so one of the things I like about my approach, and this is for me, I mean, it doesn't have to work for you, it doesn't necessarily work for everybody.
• 54:30
  SPEAKER_01: You just gotta find the thing that gives you that energy and momentum.
• 54:33
  SPEAKER_01: And one of the things I love about my approach is it is all about energy and momentum.
• 54:38
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, you know, when I'm stuck, I can't force I could force myself.
• 54:42
  SPEAKER_01: I've done it before, you know.
• 54:44
  SPEAKER_01: I could probably point to half a dozen books I wrote, like just slogged through and got the first draft done, uh, and probably didn't even do much editing afterwards because I was so sick of it.
• 54:54
  SPEAKER_01: But I fall back in love with the story when I go back to the beginning, and yeah, it is time consuming, it is kind of a soul crusher at times, but you're you are um reintroducing yourself with greater perspective.
• 55:11
  SPEAKER_01: One of my if I could have a wish fulfilled as funny as it may sound, Ken, if I could get a wish fulfilled, I've always wanted to go back, you know, in time into my like younger self and start over knowing everything I know now, right?
• 55:31
  SPEAKER_01: And I so far, God has not blessed me with that miracle, but I can get the equivalent of it with every book I write because once I've gotten to a certain point, I can loop back.
• 55:41
  SPEAKER_01: And that's when I'm telling you, man, when you've read stuff, I don't know, I'm not gonna speak for any other author, but my suspicion is when you read these books, that's like, holy crap, that that was sitting right in front of me the whole time and never even noticed it.
• 55:55
  SPEAKER_01: And then, but everything hinges on that.
• 55:58
  SPEAKER_01: They didn't just that didn't just appear there, right?
• 56:01
  SPEAKER_01: You know, and they and I promise you, they did not write that in a bullet list and then work that in as they were going.
• 56:08
  SPEAKER_01: They got to a point where they said, I need to set this up better.
• 56:12
  SPEAKER_01: And they went back in time and set it up, you know, and that's the miracle of writing to me.
• 56:19
  SPEAKER_00: See, I think, oh gosh, this is this is so this is really, really so good.
• 56:24
  SPEAKER_00: And I think this is gonna be helpful to a lot of writers because they're so so there's so much stuff out there that's all about story structure and how to do this and how to do that.
• 56:33
  SPEAKER_00: And and I've got a lot of those, I think I've got most of those books.
• 56:36
  SPEAKER_00: I haven't read most of them, but but um there there's so much stuff out there written basically.
• 56:45
  SPEAKER_00: A lot of those books are written by people who have not actually like written screenplays and novels or successful screenplays and novels.
• 56:50
  SPEAKER_00: It's like they've based their whole career on teaching people how to structure stories when they're not really doing it themselves.
• 56:57
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 56:57
  SPEAKER_00: Like there's a whole industry out there of that stuff.
• 57:00
  SPEAKER_00: So I I love your approach because it feels more natural, it feels doable, it feels like you're not you're not dumping all your energy out before you even actually start writing the book.
• 57:10
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 57:11
  SPEAKER_01: Maybe that's why I've never successfully managed to write a book on craft.
• 57:16
  SPEAKER_01: Because I I have this like, if I haven't heard of this person, you know, then how great could their advice really be?
• 57:25
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 57:25
  SPEAKER_01: And then that's really a reductive way to think about it.
• 57:28
  SPEAKER_01: But I mean, you know, like I love it, you know.
• 57:31
  SPEAKER_01: There is a little I there's a there's a kernel of truth there, but I you know, I l I one of my favorite things is to listen to audiobooks uh that are like autobiographies of of successful writers.
• 57:42
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, uh, I like listening to the audiobooks because most of the time they're the ones reading it.
• 57:46
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, uh, and they're not always great readers, but here we are.
• 57:50
  SPEAKER_01: But like I listened to um back to back, I listened to um James Patterson.
• 57:56
  SPEAKER_01: James Patterson by James Patterson read by James Patterson, and uh I have a connection with him through JD Barker and stuff, so it was kind of part.
• 58:06
  SPEAKER_01: I you know, I hadn't I didn't know his story yet.
• 58:09
  SPEAKER_01: But that was a great that was a great autobiography.
• 58:11
  SPEAKER_01: I I thought it was fantastic.
• 58:14
  SPEAKER_01: But then I listened to um Consider This from Chuck.
• 58:18
  SPEAKER_01: I'm gonna butcher it, but it's Chuck Polyunik.
• 58:20
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, the IRF Fight Club.
• 58:23
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and I think that's the way you pronounce his name.
• 58:26
  SPEAKER_01: Uh different style of book, but equally, it was sort of equally a craft book versus and uh autobiography in a way.
• 58:36
  SPEAKER_01: He's got a very solid storytelling ability.
• 58:39
  SPEAKER_01: I really enjoyed it, and uh he did not read that one, but um the narrator did an adequate job.
• 58:47
  SPEAKER_01: But I thought these two books back to back represent two extremely different poles of writer for me, you know, and but I learned just as much and appreciated both just as much.
• 59:01
  SPEAKER_01: And where am I in that spectrum of Patterson to Polyunic?
• 59:05
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, I don't even know if I'm in the middle.
• 59:09
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, I'm somewhere in between those poles for sure, but um I think we have a lot to learn from these people, and they're they're they're people who have quantifiable success.
• 59:22
  SPEAKER_01: However, I don't want to downplay the people like in our industry who you may not have heard of but are doing well, you know.
• 59:30
  SPEAKER_01: But I do think I follow the um uh Tim Ferris advice from Four Hour Work Week, you know, which is he only he's he talks about his his criteria, and so he only reads books by people who have done the thing that he's trying to do and and are and succeeded at it or or failed at it.
• 59:50
  SPEAKER_01: It doesn't have to be success, you know.
• 59:53
  SPEAKER_01: Listen to a great example of that is the guy who um was the the fo the the central character of uh the wolf of wall street.
• 1:00:02
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, Jordan, whatever the guy's name was.
• 1:00:05
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I can't remember his name, but he you know in a lot of ways he succeeded.
• 1:00:10
  SPEAKER_01: He was very wealthy and everything, but he failed and ended up going to prison and everything.
• 1:00:14
  SPEAKER_01: But you know, that's a great story to, you know, it's like a uh cautionary tale, I guess.
• 1:00:20
  SPEAKER_01: But I mean, you know, his failure is is just as great a lesson as anyone else's success, you know.
• 1:00:27
  SPEAKER_01: And uh yeah, he actually teaches some really bon bona fide sales skills that I think everybody should know uh through anecdote.
• 1:00:37
  SPEAKER_01: You know, he did this, he said this, that whole scene from the film where he's like, sell me this pen.
• 1:00:43
  SPEAKER_01: Like, I could sell you that pen.
• 1:00:45
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, I I I'm convinced I could after reading this guy's book, you know.
• 1:00:49
  SPEAKER_01: Uh but yeah, so you know, it doesn't again, it's a that's another like definition of success and failure kind of thing, but uh I do tend to lean towards I want I only want to study, I only want to learn the the craft and other things from people who are not just doing well at it, but doing it well in the way that I want to do well.
• 1:01:11
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, you know, so exactly again, more long-winded.
• 1:01:16
  SPEAKER_01: I'm very good at long-winded answers.
• 1:01:18
  SPEAKER_00: So well, that this is this is what makes you a successful podcaster, one of the things.
• 1:01:22
  SPEAKER_00: I do like podcasting, yeah.
• 1:01:24
  SPEAKER_00: And by the way, thank you for the Writers Inc.
• 1:01:26
  SPEAKER_00: podcast.
• 1:01:27
  SPEAKER_00: I know that you're only one of the people behind the mic for that, but it's really great.
• 1:01:31
  SPEAKER_00: Honore Corter actually is the one who turned me onto that last year and have just been devouring that.
• 1:01:37
  SPEAKER_00: It's really great.
• 1:01:37
  SPEAKER_00: You guys do a fantastic job.
• 1:01:39
  SPEAKER_01: That has been a real blessing in my life.
• 1:01:42
  SPEAKER_01: Um, came along at exactly the right time for me because I I had done Wordslinger podcast for like seven years, and then we we got on the road, and I would have kept it up, but the the pandemic uh managed to disrupt things in some unexpected ways for me.
• 1:01:58
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, we started doing a daily show, it's no longer daily and now it's weekly, but we you know, self-publishing insiders with drafted digital was a daily show for like three solid months, and it just became impossible for me to do anything else.
• 1:02:14
  SPEAKER_01: And uh, but the writers inc has come along to kind of fill the void of what I thought was missing.
• 1:02:20
  SPEAKER_01: I still I still think about relaunching Word Slinger podcast because I've I got a lot of people, especially when I was in London, a lot of people recognized me from that show and missed it.
• 1:02:29
  SPEAKER_01: And uh so I, you know, I'm kind of kicking around ways to to do a reboot of that.
• 1:02:35
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, but writers inc has been amazing because um everyone on the show is great.
• 1:02:40
  SPEAKER_01: I love everybody.
• 1:02:42
  SPEAKER_01: Uh we're all you know, we all get along really well together.
• 1:02:45
  SPEAKER_01: We genuinely like each other.
• 1:02:47
  SPEAKER_01: And you know, we talked to some remote, you know, uh some of the people I've interviewed and that we've interviewed on the show.
• 1:02:54
  SPEAKER_01: Uh it's just I love connecting with people at that level because that's how you really grow.
• 1:02:59
  SPEAKER_01: Is, you know, you're the ad what was it?
• 1:03:02
  SPEAKER_01: Uh I think Jim Rohn was the one who said you're the average of the five people you spend the most time with.
• 1:03:06
  SPEAKER_01: That's true.
• 1:03:07
  SPEAKER_01: Uh I get to spend time with, you know, five really incredible people.
• 1:03:11
  SPEAKER_01: Uh so it's been and I love and it's so remarkable to me how often people come to me and say, you know, they listen to that show and love that show.
• 1:03:21
  SPEAKER_01: It's just um it's been kind of astounding.
• 1:03:25
  SPEAKER_01: Well, this has been an absolute blast.
• 1:03:27
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, yeah, man.
• 1:03:28
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, yeah.
• 1:03:29
  SPEAKER_01: I'm a big fan of the show myself, and your show.
• 1:03:31
  SPEAKER_01: I'm a big fan of your your show too, even though I have not yet listened to an episode.
• 1:03:35
  SPEAKER_00: But I will.
• 1:03:37
  SPEAKER_00: Well, you know, it's quality because you're on it.
• 1:03:39
  SPEAKER_01: So now you've stepped up the quality.
• 1:03:42
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 1:03:42
  SPEAKER_01: Um, yeah, you've hit that benchmark and been careful though.
• 1:03:46
  SPEAKER_01: It's all downhill from here.
• 1:03:48
  SPEAKER_01: You're gonna end up with the likes of like Neil Gaiman or you know, uh John Grisham or something on here.
• 1:03:53
  SPEAKER_01: And it's it's it's all gonna fall a little short.
• 1:03:56
  SPEAKER_01: I'm sorry.
• 1:03:57
  SPEAKER_01: It's just the way it goes.
• 1:03:58
  SPEAKER_00: Well, one of my dreams is is to, I know Stephen King doesn't do a lot of interviews, but one of my goals is to interview Stephen King on the show.
• 1:04:05
  SPEAKER_00: I've read his stuff since I was a kid and and love it.
• 1:04:07
  SPEAKER_00: That is like a I feel like that's a crazy pipe dream, but you know, maybe if I put it on to the universe one day it'll happen or something.
• 1:04:14
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, you never know.
• 1:04:15
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, uh I'm a big fan of No Game as I've brought him up 20 times now.
• 1:04:19
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I love his stuff too.
• 1:04:20
  SPEAKER_01: He did uh an interview with Tim Ferris, and you know, they discussed like he doesn't really do podcasts, you know, and so Tim getting him on that show, it was such a it was a job of work, you know.
• 1:04:33
  SPEAKER_01: I mean it took years of back and forth, but it you know, when he got him on there, I still count that as one of the best podcast episodes of all time.
• 1:04:44
  SPEAKER_01: I just Neil's um you know, he's he's there, they're in there in person, they're chatting.
• 1:04:51
  SPEAKER_01: Tim's kind of a doofus, and I I love the guy.
• 1:04:54
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, he's just kind of a doofus uh at times, but you know, he's very genuine and very authentic.
• 1:04:59
  SPEAKER_01: And and his approach to those interviews is like that.
• 1:05:02
  SPEAKER_01: And so you get so much more out of it than if he had come in polished and you know, whatever.
• 1:05:07
  SPEAKER_01: And but Neil's very laid back and very, you know, I've met him in person.
• 1:05:12
  SPEAKER_01: I we've you know, I wouldn't say we've like we haven't gone to dinner together or anything, but you know, I've I've met him, talk to him in person a couple of times, and you know, and he is also a very genuine person.
• 1:05:23
  SPEAKER_01: But you know, if you get a chance, listen to that, listen to that interview with Tim Ferris and Neil Gaiman, and go find that speech, the uh commencement speech for the College of the Arts in 2012.
• 1:05:35
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I have uh I have actually that book.
• 1:05:37
  SPEAKER_00: They put it out in book form.
• 1:05:39
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah.
• 1:05:40
  SPEAKER_01: Uh and it's I've got every version of that.
• 1:05:42
  SPEAKER_01: I've got video, audio.
• 1:05:44
  SPEAKER_01: I I probably re-listen to that, rewatch that twice a year, a minimum.
• 1:05:48
  SPEAKER_01: Like I it's just a very it just inspired me.
• 1:05:52
  SPEAKER_01: And uh, you know, I I quote, as you can tell, I quote stuff all the time.
• 1:05:57
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, but I you know, I quote that one in particular.
• 1:06:00
  SPEAKER_01: All the time.
• 1:06:01
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, I'm just, I'm continuously quoting that one.
• 1:06:06
  SPEAKER_00: Do you have your, so your your thoughts on story looping, do you have that written down somewhere?
• 1:06:10
  SPEAKER_00: Like your process for doing that?
• 1:06:12
  SPEAKER_00: It occurs to me that would be immensely helpful for people.
• 1:06:15
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I believe that on the draft to digital blog, I wrote a post about that.
• 1:06:20
  SPEAKER_01: So if you haven't, what you'll do is you'll say, I couldn't find it.
• 1:06:25
  SPEAKER_01: And then Kevin will go write something about that process for his substack.
• 1:06:30
  SPEAKER_01: And you can reference that.
• 1:06:32
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 1:06:32
  SPEAKER_00: I'm gonna do exactly that actually.
• 1:06:35
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 1:06:35
  SPEAKER_00: Uh well, two more quick questions before we wrap up here.
• 1:06:37
  SPEAKER_00: And this this went way longer than what I intended.
• 1:06:40
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, that's my thought.
• 1:06:41
  SPEAKER_00: So thanks for your time.
• 1:06:42
  SPEAKER_00: So the first question is if somebody was gonna start with one of your fiction books, where should they start?
• 1:06:47
  SPEAKER_00: Depends on what you like to read.
• 1:06:49
  SPEAKER_00: But uh well, let's let's assume they're into the Indiana Jones archaeology archaeology kinds of things.
• 1:06:55
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 1:06:55
  SPEAKER_01: Um I would say those books.
• 1:06:58
  SPEAKER_01: The Coelo medallion, or or you're gonna probably end up pronouncing it the Coelho Medallion because Portuguese is hard uh for us Americans and and other English speakers.
• 1:07:09
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, but the Coilo Medallion is the first book in the Dan Cotler archaeological thriller series.
• 1:07:14
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 1:07:15
  SPEAKER_00: Cool.
• 1:07:16
  SPEAKER_00: Well, that's that was a very simple answer.
• 1:07:18
  SPEAKER_00: Love it.
• 1:07:18
  SPEAKER_00: Um second question is where could people go to find out all about the cool things you're doing?
• 1:07:24
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, draft to digital, your books, all the things.
• 1:07:27
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I uh you know draft to digital, you just go to draft to digital.com, draft number two digital.com.
• 1:07:33
  SPEAKER_01: But you can find a link to that and and really everything else that I do is on the hub of my life, which is the my website at Kevin Tumblinson.com.
• 1:07:44
  SPEAKER_01: Uh everything I do is there.
• 1:07:46
  SPEAKER_00: Love it.
• 1:07:47
  SPEAKER_00: Kevin, thanks again so much.
• 1:07:48
  SPEAKER_00: This has been an absolute blast.
• 1:07:50
  SPEAKER_00: I appreciate making time to share, gosh, this list of amazing insights.
• 1:07:55
  SPEAKER_01: You've got some really, really good stuff.
• 1:07:57
  SPEAKER_01: So I sorry I fire hosed everybody.
• 1:07:59
  SPEAKER_00: Uh for like no, this is this is why I do podcast interviews.
• 1:08:03
  SPEAKER_00: This is it's basically like free coaching for me.
• 1:08:05
  SPEAKER_00: That's what it is.
• 1:08:06
  SPEAKER_00: That's why I started Wordslinger podcast.
• 1:08:08
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, really honestly.
• 1:08:09
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 1:08:10
  SPEAKER_00: Um, I do learn a lot.
• 1:08:11
  SPEAKER_00: It's there isn't there's a nugget of truth to that, I suppose, but I just love having conversations with cool people.
• 1:08:16
  SPEAKER_00: So thank you again.
• 1:08:17
  SPEAKER_00: This has been great.
• 1:08:18
  SPEAKER_00: Very welcome, man.
• 1:08:20
  SPEAKER_00: Hey, I hope you enjoyed that conversation with Kevin.
• 1:08:23
  SPEAKER_00: I absolutely loved his insights about why it's so important for us as authors to diversify our income.
• 1:08:29
  SPEAKER_00: You know, Amazon is great, but you should never ever trust your livelihood or your uh, I would say your literary destiny, your literary future to one single entity.
• 1:08:40
  SPEAKER_00: And again, Amazon's great, but Amazon can change their algorithms.
• 1:08:44
  SPEAKER_00: They can, well, technically, they could just kick you off the platform if they wanted to.
• 1:08:48
  SPEAKER_00: It's happened to authors before.
• 1:08:50
  SPEAKER_00: So never ever trust your fate as an author or in any other segment of your life for that matter to one single entity.
• 1:08:57
  SPEAKER_00: That's why draft to digital is such a great option for those of us who want to diversify our writing income and also promote our books in new and interesting ways.
• 1:09:05
  SPEAKER_00: I also really, really enjoyed Kevin's insights on, well, everything that we talked about, but particularly his method for creating a first draft of his book.
• 1:09:13
  SPEAKER_00: I just love this idea of you're you're creating more content and then you're going back and you're working on it and you're you're kind of just working your way through the book as you go.
• 1:09:23
  SPEAKER_00: I think that was such a great part of that conversation.
• 1:09:25
  SPEAKER_00: And if you're working on your first piece of fiction, or maybe your fifth or tenth or twenty-fifth, maybe that's something that you can use as well.
• 1:09:33
  SPEAKER_00: Well, yeah, as always, I so much appreciate you listening, and I hope that you're going to check out Kevin's website, Drafted Digital, as well as his new book, again called A Note from the Author 123 Wise Things Someone Should Probably Say To You.
• 1:09:46
  SPEAKER_00: It's really, really a cool book.
• 1:09:48
  SPEAKER_00: Many thanks to Kevin for being a guest on today's episode.
• 1:09:50
  SPEAKER_00: And as always, thanks for listening, and I'll see you next time.