Latest / A Hamster With a Blunt Penknife - a Doctor Who Commentary podcast / Talks to Martin Parsons about his choice of The Ribos Operation (2/4)

Transcript

Talks to Martin Parsons about his choice of The Ribos Operation (2/4) · A Hamster With a Blunt Penknife - a Doctor Who Commentary podcast

• 0:33
  Hamster with a blunt pen knife for doing quicker quicker.
• 0:36
  Welcome back to a hamster with a blunt pen knife, the Doctor Who
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  Commentary Podcast, a Grade 3 podcast we've barely even
• 0:44
  discovered conversation. I'm Martin Parsons, and with me
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  is our host, the Graf Vinda Jay himself, Mr. Joe Ford.
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  Do you think I would ever rest until I have gone back to my
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  planet and usurped Martin Parsons from the throne
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  conversation? You're right there.
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  No, not between you and me, though.
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  We don't. Shut up, the pair of us.
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  We don't we. Don't shut up oh the repos
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  operation mine. It is a delight.
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  It is a delight, yes. There was a big pause there.
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  I was like, no, you're going to surprise me now.
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  So excited this is. Just me checking I've got the
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  episode queued up. I think, are we talking about
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  something else? What the Hell's going on?
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  We did just do episode one a minute ago, didn't we?
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  Well, now look quickly before we go into episode 2.
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  Yeah, I do think maybe just a quick word for Garon.
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  And unstopped as a double act. Yes.
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  Because when we're in there, we might just be quoting lines.
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  Yeah, which shows how good they are.
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  No, I mean, they are for me. I like, I love Jagger and
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  Lightfoot and it's I'm not, I don't want to knock any of the
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  other ones. But when you talk about the sort
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  of the Holmesian double acts, for me, these two are the double
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  act. I think they work so well
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  together. It's all the stuff that we're
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  coming up to where Unstop's kind of going a bit rogue and doing
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  his own thing and Garen's stepping on his feet and it's
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  they're just really well drawn. You do get the sense of that
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  kind of back story of the characters.
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  There's some real sweetness in there as well.
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  There's the bit when when you get Unstop talking to Ben Rowe
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  later on and he's talking about Garen's back story and how he
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  wants to go back to Hackney Wick and all that stuff.
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  Sounds very exotic, doesn't? It, it really does, doesn't it?
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  It's, it's like the way that Perivale sounds exotic when you
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  tell them, then you go there, not so much.
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  But it's true that yeah, I think the performances are really
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  strong. And I say Ian Cuthbertson, I
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  think he's just a wonderful actor.
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  And I mean he because, you know, it's like he's the dad in the
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  Railway Children and he's sort of adorable and he's just sort
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  of, he wanted to give him a big hug, but he's also got quite a
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  sort of stingy side that he can bring out as well when he needs
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  to. Did.
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  You not see him in Children of the Stones.
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  So I was good. Children of the Stones, I think
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  he sort of, he walks that line of being creepy, but he's also
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  very sort of obeying. Obeying.
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  That's the word. Yeah, exactly.
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  But then have you seen Casting the Rooms where he's like a
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  where he's also, I guess he is kind of obeying, but he's
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  fucking terrifying as as again, another another evil magician,
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  black black magician, and he is genuinely scary in that I.
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  Must watch that. That sounds wonderful.
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  You should have you? Have you ever seen, Do you know
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  the story the Mr. James? Have you seen Knight of the
• 3:37
  Demon? I have, yes.
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  It's it's the same story just it was done on TV in the 70s.
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  So he's playing the Carswell like the the evil magician.
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  Oh, wonderful. It's great.
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  It's really, really great. Not as.
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  Terrifying. I'm sure a scammer from Super
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  Grand though. He's his.
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  Most memorable? Role some of his before it's
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  interesting. I was looking at the IMDb and
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  it's like he was in loads of like kids TV and stuff, but it's
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  again, I think he's one of those actors where always children of
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  the Stones technically kids TV. Bloody terrifying.
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  Absolutely, absolutely chilling, but but and so mad the ideas in
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  it. But I think Ian Cuthbertson, I
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  don't think he ever. He's one of those who never
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  slums it. So he'll do everything, but he's
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  never giving a weaker performance.
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  He's always. Really, the lead, he's one of
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  those people that sort of carved out a career of playing parts in
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  other people's shows, but always being in work.
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  Yeah, he's a character actor, isn't he?
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  As they say, that's a slightly offensive sounding description.
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  I I hate to sort of derail this immediately, yeah, but because I
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  did just mention a super grand. Do you mind if I do just do a
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  snatch it of the theme? Go on.
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  Stand back, Superman, Iceman, spider man, Batman and Robin
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  too. Do you remember that?
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  Look out for Super Grand didn't. She only die really recently as
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  well. The actress was about 108 or
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  something. She had a great name, didn't
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  she? What was it like GUND or
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  something? Something Scott Goodrum.
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  Goodrum. Yes, yeah.
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  Yeah, she was a mate. She used to do that thing with
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  her fingers, didn't she? Magic.
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  And she had a crazy no scanner, had a car that flew across
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  Scotland or wherever they were. Yeah, yeah, Across the field.
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  But let's be honest, Doctor Who was very lucky to get him.
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  But yeah, I think definitely a real sort of stand out proper
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  like what today would be like the big guest star, you know,
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  And I don't know if they felt in those like felt like that at the
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  time, but I think he is really, really good.
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  He really elevates everything you know, and it's already
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  pretty good. He comes at just the right time
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  as well because I think in Hinchcliffe time this style of
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  performance would have been a bit out of place even though
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  there are big performance. There are some big performances.
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  Yeah, yeah, yeah. But it's comic in a way that is
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  early Season 16. Yes.
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  Sort of almost. It's erring towards pantomime,
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  but it isn't quite there yet. We get pantomime when we get to
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  Graham Crowden, that is. True, Yeah, you're right.
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  Actually it is sort of walking that line, isn't it?
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  Because you've got the villains in the earlier seasons who are
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  seasons 1314 who, who are sort of, they can be funny, but it's
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  that sort of dark sort of camp humour.
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  It's like, oh God, the actor stays completely out of my head.
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  Cab Freddy from The Italian Job. Beckley.
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  Tony. Tony Beckley.
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  Yeah, yeah. And he's he, he can be sort of
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  jokey, but it's that very dark sort of humour.
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  And then, yeah, as you say, later on we go full pantomime.
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  But in this season, we're going sort of it's that it can be
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  tongue in cheek, but it's not outright fully.
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  I mean Susan Ingalls there as well.
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  I just on the right side of the line.
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  Just on the right side. I was thinking about Peter
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  Jeffries and thinking is he, is he on the right?
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  He but I mean, but the whole thing is a send up, isn't it?
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  I guess so that's kind of it. It's elevated.
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  It's a it's the yeah, the prisoner of sending.
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  You could see him on the as real as you would as definitely as
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  the plague. If I already she was real, I'd
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  marry her. Yeah, I could see him on the
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  stage, I think. Oh, God, yeah.
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  I don't think, yeah, I don't think he could tone it down.
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  So that's kind of. Why are they wasting time
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  putting those sixty stories on the stage?
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  The Rebus operation, It's built for the stage.
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  Oh, Can you imagine it would actually be fun?
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  I'd love to hear that. Sort of, I don't know.
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  I mean, perhaps I don't know. I've never looked to check if
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  Robert Holmes ever wrote a play, but it's sort of that I feel
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  like he was a bit wasted if he didn't like you should have
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  done. It's really interesting when you
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  read that book in that I think he had both a superiority and a
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  massive inferiority complex. So he knew he was good and he
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  was knew he was good at the work he did, but he didn't think he
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  was. He was always been encouraged to
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  like, write for play, play for today and yeah, the big prestige
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  dramas and things like that. And he would go, no, no, no, I'm
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  fine in my lane, you know, I know what I'm doing.
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  But fuck, he had the talent to do it.
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  There's some crossovers that I think we we really lost out in
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  not having or or people maybe wouldn't have wanted to do them.
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  Like we talked about how they they were desperate to get Nigel
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  Neil and he was like absolutely fucking not.
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  But there's other writers, people like John Bowen, people
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  who did place for today, but the sort of horror plays for today
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  who could have done fantastic Doctor Who.
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  And I think that is a shame. Yeah, Robert Holmes could have
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  done. There are so many other things
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  that Robert Holmes could have done brilliantly as well.
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  Occasionally happened, didn't it?
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  Remember when Philip Martin came in and JMT?
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  Oh, you're suspicious of him? I'm like, why does this writer
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  with all these awards want a writer?
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  Doctor Who? It's one of those where I think
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  also later on, Andrew Cartmel was so on the right path being
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  like, OK, let's go to the writers rooms, let's see like
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  what's happening in the workshops.
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  And the thing was there was a kind of synergy because there
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  was that thing, wasn't there where all of the where Leslie
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  Dunlop was like, yeah, Doctor Who's like the only place on TV
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  where you can still be really experimental.
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  And so then you get in all these younger actors who were into
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  that. And there's a point where you're
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  sort of like Doctor Who in the early 90s could have been really
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  fucking cool if you were getting all of these writers and actors
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  coming on, the things that we were robbed of.
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  Do you think as well, though Cartmel was savvy enough that
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  had Holmes lived at a couple more years, he would have had
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  him right A7 Oh, yeah, yeah, he would have gone.
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  Yes. He's clearly the best writer,
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  like when he when he does his book looking back on Doctor.
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  Who? Yeah, yeah, yeah.
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  It's a fucking tedious book where he criticizes most of
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  Classic Who until you get to the Sylvester McCoy era obviously,
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  but he does point at talent of Wenchuang as the single best
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  script to come out of Classic Who so he could recognize that
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  Holmes could deliver. Absolutely.
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  And but I think also it's, it's the same problem I think
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  nowadays. And I understand the importance
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  of having a, you know, the safe pairs of hands who can deliver
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  the scripts. And I think I think will you.
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  Leave Pip and Jane Baker alone. I'm.
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  Coming, I'm coming further forward now, but I think Chipnor
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  was interesting in doing some of the trying to get in new voices,
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  new writers. Sometimes it works, sometimes it
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  didn't work. But I think there was at least
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  that sort of he was looking at least and trying to do things a
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  bit differently. And I wish there were more of
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  that. And, and I think also, to be
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  fair, I didn't like the episode as I didn't like many of the
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  episodes. But RTD got in the women who'd
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  been working on the ones who've been Rogue.
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  Rogue. Yeah, they because they were
• 10:46
  working on something else. Was it one of the Marvel series?
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  They'd been working. He criticised the the very
• 10:52
  slight sort of gay reference that there was, saying that's
• 10:55
  not good enough. Oh yeah, so it's like, come on,
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  I'm the. Writer game romance do.
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  Something better. But yeah, but at least that
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  that's, I think that's what people should be doing as
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  well-being like, OK, what are the big shows around Will?
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  Will these writers come and write for us?
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  Like, can we get the writers of Succession to come and do a
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  doctor or whatever like that? I think there should be a lot
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  more. And I understand that.
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  And, you know, people who work in TV will be shaking their
• 11:19
  heads going no, but you can't and whatever.
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  And you can't just open it up and you can't have, you know,
• 11:23
  just random slush pile scripts and stuff.
• 11:25
  But I, I wish they could. I wish there a bit more
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  flexibility. But I think the reason why one
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  name just keeps coming back right up until the ultimate
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  though, is because Robos was so good.
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  He was, oh God, potentially Doctor Who's best scriptwriter.
• 11:42
  He's the one who understood the the possibilities of what it
• 11:44
  could do in terms of comedy, in terms of horror.
• 11:48
  I mean, the scene between Bin Roe and Unstoppiness in terms of
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  heartbreak, you know, I mean, he was just the master of his
• 11:55
  craft. Yeah.
• 11:57
  And I think he, it's like you said exactly.
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  Actually he it's not because we've got there are some people
• 12:01
  who do great dialogue, like when we were talking about going back
• 12:06
  to image of the Fendale again. But by the end when we just gave
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  up talking about image of the Fendale in episode 4 because the
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  story had just fallen apart completely essentially.
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  And that doesn't tend to happen. You know Robert Holmes, he gets
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  pacing he gets. Slots for it.
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  I mean, he does that brilliant episode one.
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  Yeah, sometimes episode fours, but he does.
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  Yeah, brilliant episode. This is one of those rare ones
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  so it doesn't fall apart in episode 4.
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  No, I think this is great from beginning to end.
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  I really don't think there's a weak part of three bus
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  operation. We're talking about this
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  absolutely sparkling writer. Should we watch him in action?
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  Yes, let's do it. Did that.
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  Well, there that little segue. Did you notice that?
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  Yeah. Perfect.
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  Well, you started this. Should I count in?
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  Yes, go on then, let's do it. OK, well we'll go in then.
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  In Seeker Numbers 54321, the episode you'll see.
• 13:00
  Yeah, she's not even turned up. Yet not even there yet I know
• 13:05
  what a great character she is. Oh, here we go down the old
• 13:09
  colostomy of the Tom Baker title sequence.
• 13:14
  It's funny already though, this, this.
• 13:16
  It feels almost a bit strange that this is still the title
• 13:19
  sequence this far in. It starts to be like the show
• 13:23
  just feels it's not the same show anymore.
• 13:25
  It's not what it was before. I mean, it's a.
• 13:27
  Great idea, I thought. The sort of Delaware in there
• 13:29
  right now with some comedy cartoons and things, you know?
• 13:35
  Yeah, it's Pops because J&T does it, doesn't he?
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  So it's interesting that Graham Williams chooses not, mind you,
• 13:40
  that transition season from horror into a lighter show.
• 13:45
  It does happen slowly throughout 15 doesn't.
• 13:47
  It that's true, that's true. But then it's funny that in from
• 13:50
  this season, it feels so coherent and and like Graham
• 13:55
  Williams just seems really like in control.
• 13:59
  Anthony Reed. I think Reed, this is one
• 14:01
  season, isn't it? And he's like, right, this is
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  what we're gonna do this year. This is the tone we're going
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  for. He finds David Fisher doesn't.
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  He's got Holmes doing 2 stories. Yeah.
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  And he goes, well, I've got one more slot to fill.
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  Ohh. Bob and Dave, are you free?
• 14:15
  Yeah, now the Doctor's reaction. There were romance like, are
• 14:18
  there many creatures like that in other worlds?
• 14:20
  The Doctor's like millions. And he grins as he said.
• 14:23
  It is so lovely and so brilliantly doctorish as he.
• 14:26
  Says I'm like, oh, if you were scared of a little thing like
• 14:28
  that, you should stay at home, you know?
• 14:32
  Oh, they'll have our heads off before you can say Rasalon's
• 14:35
  rods. Rasalon's Rod.
• 14:38
  Do you know the thing I love about Prentice Hancock in this
• 14:40
  is it's a very knowing performance.
• 14:42
  All of his performances usually are just very, very serious one
• 14:46
  man. Sort of like yeah, Meathead. 8th
• 14:49
  cake. Are you sure that's.
• 14:50
  Not the way I mean, you know, have you?
• 14:51
  Seen him in that Marestian uniform, his chest out.
• 14:55
  Where he's just sort of like a lump.
• 14:57
  He's just sort of like the bullish character, isn't he?
• 14:59
  And he's not really intelligent. But in here, when he's sort of
• 15:02
  going, you know, oh, it's extremely irregular.
• 15:05
  It's great in this, like it's it's really fun.
• 15:08
  Angle shot. That's a very nice shot.
• 15:10
  Yeah, and and I say and he uses his high angle shots really
• 15:13
  well. Would you sing the music with me
• 15:15
  as they turn the lights on please?
• 15:16
  Do you know the music to this bit?
• 15:18
  I just like. Oh yeah.
• 15:22
  Yeah, all I can think of is the when the lights turn.
• 15:25
  On the sort of Pixies music, yeah, yeah, I even like the
• 15:29
  swords look that are on the screens there.
• 15:31
  Yeah, I just think that it's all really nicely designed and the
• 15:36
  suggestion of the sort of texture of the culture is really
• 15:40
  good. That's.
• 15:42
  What I say to my other half when I'm in the mood, You know, light
• 15:44
  the domes. This annoys me though.
• 15:49
  When he bends down, I'm like, ah, but Roman stood right next
• 15:52
  to him. They could have had that door
• 15:54
  fold around a little bit further to make it not look like.
• 15:57
  Hiding in plain sight. Very much in a.
• 16:00
  Typical problem in Wow. Look at those lovely robes over
• 16:03
  there. Reminds me of what the Doctor
• 16:05
  was wearing in the Invasion of Time.
• 16:08
  They just put a few sequins on the gold basher, but there we
• 16:11
  go. Just gorgeous cat.
• 16:12
  Oh, Joe. Later on when they go to the
• 16:14
  catacombs and there's all those candles.
• 16:16
  Everywhere. It's brilliant, it's fantastic.
• 16:18
  Gorgeous OH. There we go, thanks for the safe
• 16:21
  journey. Where are you from?
• 16:24
  I'm from the north, so oh boy. I mean ham don't cover it.
• 16:31
  But it's, it's a wonderful performance.
• 16:33
  Garen's yeah, his merchant. Big in every sense of the word,
• 16:39
  isn't it? Going over the tundra again,
• 16:43
  lots of details. Yeah, very small detail, but it
• 16:46
  works really. You just really get a sense of
• 16:48
  the planet and the world and stuff like that.
• 16:50
  And it's, yeah, it's really beautifully done.
• 16:53
  You get the sense that Ian Kaufman could burst into
• 16:55
  laughter. Look at his sparkly eyes like.
• 16:58
  There's a there's a couple of points where I'm not sure that
• 17:01
  they didn't corpse a bit like you sort of get them, like
• 17:04
  they're really, really close to to going.
• 17:07
  I think I. Say that in my shop, you know
• 17:08
  it's putting temptation in the way of dishonest citizens.
• 17:12
  All. This lawlessness about.
• 17:14
  Could be murdered in our beds and the dogs are grinning.
• 17:18
  The dogs are grinning at Garen's shtick is brilliant as well.
• 17:21
  Was totally seeing through him straight away.
• 17:23
  He recognises A fellow rogue when he says, well, just.
• 17:26
  Like shrieves that. I like the name and the
• 17:29
  shrivelter. The shrivelter, the way he
• 17:31
  pronounces it, it's just brilliant.
• 17:32
  What's the money called? OPECS.
• 17:34
  Opecs. Yeah, just gold.
• 17:37
  He he has OPECS. Good way of finding science
• 17:41
  fictiony words that don't sound pony.
• 17:44
  No, and even his. Like I like his.
• 17:46
  I like the Holmesian world building that they picked up.
• 17:49
  I think in some of the new adventures, the whole like Trow
• 17:51
  and Crow titles and stuff like that, I like.
• 17:54
  I like that stuff. It's sort of subtle, but it's
• 17:56
  not overbearing. Oh look, he's bribing him now.
• 18:00
  Yeah, 1000 OPECS. I'll leave it to you, of course,
• 18:03
  to decide where the money goes. For a night or two, maybe even
• 18:07
  one night. Deeply obliged, Captain.
• 18:11
  You and me are so happy we could play him on the stage.
• 18:14
  I'll be the understudy, all right.
• 18:18
  It'll be unstuffed. Am I being unstuffed?
• 18:21
  Oh, Arthur, that way, do that way.
• 18:24
  Do that be what we call Grinstone?
• 18:27
  Obviously girls just going off a little natter in the corner.
• 18:29
  Do you ever suffer from the Scringes?
• 18:31
  The Scringes. I love that too.
• 18:36
  What the fuck is the Scringes? It's only when it's very cold,
• 18:39
  isn't it? The Scringes.
• 18:40
  I figure it's sort of the the Rebus version of scabies, you
• 18:44
  know, when you put it about a bit.
• 18:47
  Because stuff from all over and and this when he's when he's
• 18:50
  massaging his ego as well, he's like, oh, you're high.
• 18:53
  That's your tails of your daring do and whatever.
• 18:56
  And then the graph gets really pissed off.
• 18:58
  And she looks there just sort of calming him down.
• 19:01
  I mean, that's a great relationship as well.
• 19:03
  She'll look. On the graph it is.
• 19:04
  Oh, very erotic. Don't cover it.
• 19:06
  But I think this is because I know there are many readings of
• 19:09
  this relationship, but I feel like it's just a very it's like
• 19:13
  he's his only friend, he's the only one he's got left and it is
• 19:17
  very touching. Like, you do get the sense
• 19:20
  they've genuinely gone through all these battles together.
• 19:22
  Is that a star on his face? Yeah, and I think I, I think I,
• 19:26
  I, I don't so much buy the romantic reading of them, but I
• 19:30
  think he's. Just do you know, I was going to
• 19:32
  suggest we play the graph and shellac in the you know, and you
• 19:36
  be the graph and I'll kiss you all over the face after you die.
• 19:39
  But it's not. But he does that, doesn't he?
• 19:41
  Because he does it to the doctor as well, when he's his soldier.
• 19:43
  When he says goodbye to him, he gives him a little a little hug.
• 19:48
  What's that? Trees out the window?
• 19:49
  I could see there, could you? See that?
• 19:51
  Yeah, there is the trees and the the turrets in the background.
• 19:54
  There's a lot of little touches that make, I don't know, the set
• 19:59
  designers are just putting in great.
• 20:00
  Effort, he calls the writer. Don't be sarcastic either.
• 20:03
  That could. Also get you into trouble.
• 20:05
  So now he's playing it absolutely straight.
• 20:09
  I love also how in the Williams era he can just turn on a dime
• 20:13
  from this totally irreverent to being deadly serious.
• 20:17
  But then here again, yeah, this is the stuff that I think it's a
• 20:19
  shame when he's he's saying he could be an agent of the Black
• 20:21
  Guardian and that I wish that'd be more of a thing going through
• 20:27
  that the danger of all the because he could have been
• 20:29
  looking at Beatrix Layman being like, she seems a bit
• 20:32
  suspicious. Is she an agent of the Black
• 20:33
  Guardian? You know, I wish you'd stop
• 20:36
  treating me like a child, Martin.
• 20:37
  I'm nearly 140, you know? Come on, say the line.
• 20:42
  You might have been there some coke.
• 20:43
  It's like, no. I'm in wonderful condition.
• 20:45
  Thank you. Thank.
• 20:46
  You. Oh, yes.
• 20:47
  Really. Really.
• 20:48
  You're in wonderful condition. Yeah.
• 20:49
  Yeah. Because here that flirty stuff
• 20:51
  comes in as well. It's lovely.
• 20:53
  I'm only the agent. Some shortage of liquidity?
• 20:57
  Perhaps they require some capital.
• 21:01
  Finance. Oh boy, oh boy.
• 21:04
  I mean it's it's voice is like a fine wine.
• 21:07
  It's so rich. It's beautiful.
• 21:10
  I just and everything is is a great dream planet.
• 21:13
  It's like Lisps on planet. It's so good.
• 21:18
  Until Rebus is accorded at least grade 2 status.
• 21:23
  That's so funny, I haven't. Even got the telescope.
• 21:27
  Oh God, go on, go on, do this bit.
• 21:29
  It's. Like if you walk far enough
• 21:31
  you'll fall off the edge. There's no chance of Remos
• 21:33
  reaching Grade 2 status for another many thousands of years.
• 21:37
  May you live a long line graph. But not that long.
• 21:41
  That long? What's really great is Holmes
• 21:48
  knows it. Isn't it enough that they just
• 21:50
  pulled the wool over the Graf's eyes?
• 21:52
  So he has him find the bug really early?
• 21:55
  So you're waiting for that Graf to make his move on Garam.
• 21:59
  Clever. Oh, here we go.
• 22:02
  This is the screen stone moment. It's still soil, don't you
• 22:05
  think? Oh, there's a massive lump of
• 22:09
  screen stone there. Look, I know I don't know pretty
• 22:14
  though whatever it is, but. Also, the fact that the graph
• 22:18
  and Shorlak are, they are very observant and they are very sort
• 22:22
  of used to sniffing out tricks and things.
• 22:26
  And they're not just being fucked over or from, you know,
• 22:29
  pretty early on they they rumble what's going on or they have an
• 22:32
  idea that something's not right. Let's not be called strange,
• 22:35
  Dalton, Sorry. That bit where he steps on his
• 22:38
  foot and goes, it's incredible. I mean, this is now in panto.
• 22:45
  Yeah, but I love that just how he's he's just like you're
• 22:48
  overdoing it and he's gets he's grimacing behind him.
• 22:52
  I fought around your neck and you won't ever suffer from the
• 22:54
  strangers no matter how to. Hold it baby, I might take that
• 22:57
  map and go looking for that old school show.
• 22:59
  Fine you people that don't enjoy this, what is wrong with you?
• 23:06
  It's so fun. They sound like the descendants
• 23:09
  of the Tyler family. They don't they that being what
• 23:12
  we do with our screen show. I realise you're just listening
• 23:15
  to us sort of inferiorly quoting this story when you could be.
• 23:18
  Watching it. But I mean, look at the family.
• 23:21
  And watch it. What are you doing?
• 23:23
  Oh no, listen to us as well. There's I think there's some
• 23:28
  weird sort of confirmation bias in these commentaries.
• 23:31
  You know when people are loving something you love, There's
• 23:33
  something nice about having that affirmation.
• 23:36
  That is definitely true. Is that why people watch those
• 23:39
  reaction videos? Yeah, I I was thinking about,
• 23:42
  were you talking about that recently?
• 23:44
  I think I was talking about it with Dylan Reece at one point.
• 23:47
  Because yeah, I was thinking about that.
• 23:49
  I've never really watched them myself, but I really I see that
• 23:51
  they're a big thing. Look at the doctor staring.
• 23:54
  Through the glasses, nose pressed on the glasses.
• 23:56
  Great. My poor dad spent his life
• 23:58
  searching for that mine. I'd love one of those big furry
• 24:02
  hats. The the costume, I say, yeah, I
• 24:04
  say praise to Jane Hudson. The costumes are fantastic.
• 24:07
  I feel like I should get you 1. You know you're in the
• 24:09
  mountains, aren't you? You're near snow.
• 24:11
  I've got no hair. I need to.
• 24:13
  Oh, you look magnificent. In one of those.
• 24:16
  Big mouths. Oh.
• 24:17
  Wonderful. I quite like the little hat as
• 24:19
  well. Though, oh, here we go.
• 24:22
  Incredible. Incredible.
• 24:25
  And then they're not stupid. That's what I like.
• 24:27
  He goes. He's making it up.
• 24:29
  Making it up, yeah, that is. That is excellent.
• 24:31
  And of course the graph is so arrogant.
• 24:34
  No one. Jess with me and Shellac, he's.
• 24:37
  Like no, yeah. OK, it's it's there's a respect
• 24:40
  for the characters, even when they're comedy characters.
• 24:44
  And I like the fact that obviously in this we've had
• 24:46
  performances in Doctor Who where you know they are over playing
• 24:51
  it and it's not deliberate and then Unstop is doing this
• 24:53
  fantastically over the top performance, but Garen's there
• 24:56
  being like what the fuck are you doing?
• 24:58
  What's he saying? My life was flashing before my
• 25:00
  eyes and. It's the reason my life was a
• 25:05
  flashing before my eyes. You know how these fellows like
• 25:11
  the pitcher yarn and the. Doctor just skips it.
• 25:13
  And then also it's the fact that Romana doesn't get that he's
• 25:16
  taking the pit like these, you know, these, he's overselling
• 25:19
  it. What's?
• 25:19
  The line, Romana, you can't be a crook with a dishonest face.
• 25:24
  But he had such an honest face. Oh, Romana, you've got a lot to
• 25:29
  learn. I mean, look, the graph takes
• 25:32
  one look at the doctor, this tramp, and goes, yeah, it's time
• 25:34
  we were moving on. Oh, boy.
• 25:38
  Yeah, boy. So the doctors figured it all
• 25:41
  out, isn't it? He's like, OK, but.
• 25:43
  It's interesting how little the Doctor and the graph really have
• 25:47
  to do with each other because I was even later on when I was
• 25:49
  really watching it, when he goes where the graphs going down into
• 25:51
  the catacombs, he's looking for Unstaff, he's not looking for
• 25:54
  the Doctor, and the fact the Doctor's there is sort of by the
• 25:58
  by really. I think Holmes knows that the
• 26:01
  Doctor villain and stuff. It's like, I mean, he's written
• 26:03
  so many confrontations by this point.
• 26:06
  Yeah, you know. He's never got a top, you know,
• 26:08
  Tom Baker and Magnus Grill in Telus when Cheyenne, so he just
• 26:11
  goes well, he can have fun with the rogues.
• 26:13
  Then, and that's the thing exactly, because you don't need
• 26:15
  it, because it is a caper, because it's a romp, you don't
• 26:19
  really need that, that moment of confrontation.
• 26:21
  You just need the people to be running around doing their
• 26:23
  thing. You are right.
• 26:24
  Why aren't there more capers in Doctor?
• 26:26
  Who? I just don't understand.
• 26:28
  It's one of those things, it's. Ripe for it.
• 26:30
  It's family entertainment. Yeah.
• 26:32
  And it's like Doctor Who should be doing, you know, Thomas Crown
• 26:35
  Affair. It should be doing sort of
• 26:37
  charade. It should be all of these
• 26:38
  things. It would do it so well.
• 26:40
  And I suppose City of Death does it.
• 26:42
  That's kind of the, the, the other one that I would say is
• 26:45
  the where there is a sort of, you do have all the, the crime
• 26:48
  stuff and the sort of crime Lord thing.
• 26:51
  Probably the most popular example.
• 26:53
  As well, isn't it? Although like, I think this is
• 26:57
  funnier. Yeah, it's definitely and it's,
• 27:00
  it's definitely, I'd say wittier in a, in a more rounded way.
• 27:07
  Like City of Death has funny lines, but in itself a lot of
• 27:11
  the stuff isn't that funny. They it's funny because it's
• 27:14
  Douglas Adams who can do who can do a joke.
• 27:16
  There's a richness to the vocabulary here that I love.
• 27:20
  It's delightful and it's all coming out of the characters
• 27:22
  here. It's because it's the
• 27:23
  interactions between the characters.
• 27:26
  It's the same sort of very clever, sort of specifically
• 27:31
  wittied, the sort of stuff you get in like The Two Ronnies and
• 27:34
  things like that. You know, the best comedy of the
• 27:36
  time. Really clever word play.
• 27:39
  Yeah, definitely. And then you marry it with these
• 27:43
  insane performances. And well.
• 27:46
  It speaks for itself. That's it.
• 27:50
  So he's off to fetch the money. He's going with him to the city
• 27:53
  wall, which leaves. And this is unusual for 70s
• 27:56
  Doctor Who just to have a whole scene in silence now where he's,
• 28:00
  you know, warming his hands and. And it's all very sort of, yeah,
• 28:05
  believable. And it's like he doesn't do
• 28:07
  anything clever. He just spots the bug.
• 28:09
  And then it's like, OK, what does this mean?
• 28:11
  I love a fire hearth in the middle of the room like that.
• 28:14
  That's. Great, that'd be lovely right
• 28:16
  now all around. You're telling me it's bloody
• 28:20
  freezing here? He say.
• 28:23
  He's on to his game now. It's a bloody good thing,
• 28:27
  otherwise this story would have been open with in two episodes.
• 28:30
  I don't know that much about Paul Seeds other acting because
• 28:33
  obviously he did not he he was did his directing later on, but
• 28:37
  I don't know that I've seen him in anything else.
• 28:39
  Again. It's one of those that.
• 28:40
  Haven't either. I mean, I don't think you need
• 28:41
  to see much more than this, no. He gives you everything here.
• 28:46
  If he's playing me false, Shalak killed him below.
• 28:51
  We have a negative empathy. Dr. Let's Go is a brilliant
• 28:55
  little exchange. Screen stones lost minds.
• 28:58
  I was sweating blood into that junk.
• 29:02
  What? I love that bit about my poor
• 29:05
  old dad. This is just a wonderful.
• 29:10
  Like I absolutely would watch a show I would have in the 70s of
• 29:15
  this pair going from planet to planet like Del Boy and Rodney.
• 29:19
  Pulling off. Scrapes and japes.
• 29:22
  But I think they're also there, there is just scope in that
• 29:24
  these two actors, they could have done like, you know, they
• 29:27
  could have been like, I was gonna say Lovejoy.
• 29:29
  But you know, they still could do that thing.
• 29:30
  They could you could set in the real world and they'd still be
• 29:33
  brilliant if you're just watching them go around.
• 29:35
  I didn't jam people pitch that that one.
• 29:37
  I got him off top to Lovejoy in Space starring Ian Cuthbertson.
• 29:42
  But it's interesting that Garen, you could totally have Garen
• 29:46
  back in the way that they then do with Glitz later on.
• 29:50
  So another Holmes character but the way they they bring Glitz
• 29:52
  back and they turn him into less of a cold blooded killer and
• 29:58
  more of a funny thief character. He basically becomes Garen
• 30:02
  actually in Dragon I. Do, I mean, I think the best
• 30:04
  glitz is glitz from Mysterious Planet, where he's got a bit of
• 30:08
  edge. Oh.
• 30:08
  By far, yeah. And.
• 30:10
  Tony Selby, whilst it being a very mannered performance,
• 30:13
  again, it is far more underplayed than it can listen.
• 30:17
  Definitely. But I do love glitz.
• 30:19
  I just love a rogue. Yeah, that's it.
• 30:21
  That's it. And I think, I think there's
• 30:22
  definitely scope for that in Doctor Who.
• 30:25
  What is it says like deep rooted maladjusting, my psychiatrist
• 30:28
  told me. But I just tried to kill him.
• 30:31
  He's great. Oh my God, look at Paul.
• 30:34
  Tom's hair covered in polystyrene there.
• 30:37
  Yeah, this is the this is the problem with the snow.
• 30:40
  But I love I love Romana, like being quite slow.
• 30:43
  Well, the other thing about just the character of Romana is this
• 30:47
  this is her first story. It does.
• 30:49
  It really does feel like they they, it's, she's sort of Rodin
• 30:54
  at this point still, isn't she? They really like that thing if
• 30:56
  she doesn't really understand how anything works.
• 30:59
  I'm the pirate planet. She's walking into the Captain
• 31:02
  Bridge and going, oh, it's an old Macrobac field integrated.
• 31:05
  She very quickly finds her place, doesn't she?
• 31:08
  Yeah. But I mean, there they see they
• 31:11
  were doing all the work to convince you they were outside
• 31:13
  there. There was a wind machine going.
• 31:14
  There was snow. They were shouting to be heard
• 31:17
  over the wind. Yeah, no, I think they do a
• 31:19
  really. Like I say it does,
• 31:21
  geographically, he does a really good job.
• 31:24
  I'm determined to say nice things about the direction, you
• 31:26
  know, after Nathan was so mean about Fenton Foster.
• 31:29
  I really have very little bad things to say.
• 31:33
  Here we go. Perhaps is not all he seems.
• 31:39
  Do you know? I think I've seen a a mustache
• 31:41
  like that outside of a 1970s Paul movie.
• 31:45
  But I think I think the close up work is good on on character
• 31:49
  like this is this I think is really nice just getting in on
• 31:51
  the characters, just very having them talking things through
• 31:54
  perhaps too remarkable to be quite believable.
• 31:57
  I think in Doctor Who, right, there are two types of actors.
• 32:00
  There's the actors that aren't afraid of the camera, and
• 32:02
  there's the actors that are like Matthew Waterhouse is a great.
• 32:07
  He's an actor that's terrified of the camera and he just tries
• 32:10
  it and it always usually fails. Whereas at this point in the
• 32:14
  show's history, they're just bringing and in actors that are
• 32:16
  going, come on, bring that camera a bit more closer to me.
• 32:19
  Oh, God, yeah. I mean, and and sometimes you,
• 32:21
  you with certain characters, you really need that thing of the
• 32:25
  camera has to love them and they have to love the camera.
• 32:29
  Like, it is Tony Beckley, isn't it?
• 32:31
  It's Harrison Chase. It's Tony.
• 32:32
  Yeah, yeah. He, he how he's just fantastic.
• 32:36
  Every line of his face gets it. And someone else who should have
• 32:39
  been a much, much bigger star. Well, because he died young.
• 32:42
  Do you remember I said in image of the Fendale the the sort of
• 32:45
  the lighting person was the greatest weapon that a director
• 32:49
  could have because they can bring up?
• 32:51
  I do think that's true, but I think the guest cast as well.
• 32:54
  If you've got good people in your book.
• 32:56
  And Fiona Cummin used to always say that, look, you know, I
• 32:58
  mean, I always would bring in when she did cast Revalva.
• 33:01
  I'm dealing with all these new regulars coming together, and
• 33:04
  I've got to give them a lot of time.
• 33:05
  So I've just brought in great actors that I knew could do it.
• 33:08
  Yeah, and I think George Benson Foster, again, if we're looking
• 33:11
  at the strength of the director on sort of what they managed to
• 33:13
  put together, then he's 2 for two of great lighting, great
• 33:18
  guest cast, great music. It's all, it's all great.
• 33:22
  And Blake Seven. I mean Aubrey, Woods and Blake.
• 33:24
  7. Yeah, John Leeson.
• 33:28
  Maybe not. Yeah, it's a small role.
• 33:30
  Oh, what about Legrand? What's her face from?
• 33:33
  Voice from the past. Oh, OK, there.
• 33:35
  It falls apart a bit. What's that woman's name?
• 33:37
  But. But some of the doctor here,
• 33:39
  some of the sorry, some of the Blake 7 casting, I mean, it was
• 33:43
  they didn't have the budget. They couldn't.
• 33:46
  They couldn't pay the people in. The only line I remember that
• 33:50
  that woman says is we will form the triumvirate straight to the
• 33:54
  camera. Oh she's terrible.
• 33:56
  Why am I talking about Blake 7 when I'm watching the Rebus
• 33:58
  operation? I do love her though.
• 34:02
  But all this back and forth, like down, down the, the, the,
• 34:05
  the, whatever it is, the tunnel, the tube thing that that's all
• 34:08
  great stuff. Well, it suggests layers to the
• 34:11
  sense as. Well, yeah, exactly.
• 34:14
  Of the doctor going past him because I couldn't sleep either,
• 34:16
  when the man's asleep. I mean, Holmes could just ride
• 34:21
  this wit in his sleep, couldn't he?
• 34:24
  It's what we said about Chris Boucher in Image of the Fender
• 34:27
  Man. They're just, they're just are
• 34:28
  witty writers. This is it.
• 34:30
  They are, yeah. They're both just incredibly
• 34:33
  good at what they do. It's very different stuff that
• 34:35
  they do, but they're both incredibly good at their own
• 34:37
  thing. Oh, Martin, the whole sequence
• 34:40
  now. I remember when I first watched
• 34:41
  this and I wondered if Doctor Who would ever be better than
• 34:44
  this bit. Where unstuffed, trying to get
• 34:47
  the bloody stone out of the room, the doctors coming in,
• 34:50
  everyone's tiptoeing around beyond screens and I was like
• 34:53
  this is just magic. But again, it's for those things
• 34:56
  that that works when you're in this sort of crime caper and
• 34:59
  you're expecting that thing of this character going here, this
• 35:02
  character going here, and that that is something that Doctor
• 35:04
  Who can do so well. And I would just wish they did
• 35:07
  it more. There's other notches to its
• 35:09
  belts than being scary, isn't it?
• 35:11
  And I know Doctor Who does scary really well, but.
• 35:14
  Oh, no, it does. And I, and I mean, you know, the
• 35:16
  scary stuff is probably my favorite stuff, but I also
• 35:19
  really wish they were more comedy.
• 35:21
  I wish they were more general like this.
• 35:22
  Sort of, yeah. Taurus the same, isn't it?
• 35:25
  That's a caper. It's caper.
• 35:27
  You know, the Android King and we've got to try and get him in
• 35:29
  and then we've got to Oh my God, no, he's already on the throne.
• 35:32
  What's going on? You know, like it's great
• 35:34
  comedy. It's like, you know, and the
• 35:37
  same thing, the mistaken identity.
• 35:39
  I mean, I like that in Black Orchid with the mistaken
• 35:41
  identity, it's not such a not quite such a romp, but this?
• 35:44
  The Doctor walks in, unstuffed, runs beyond out of the screen,
• 35:48
  locks the door, locks him in. The guard wakes up, blows the
• 35:51
  whistle. Oh fuck, I'm trapped in the room
• 35:54
  and the jewel's gone. Wonderful.
• 35:59
  And then you think the Doctor's done four.
• 36:00
  And the next thing you know, he's like, I'm stuff, where are
• 36:02
  you? He goes, I'm here.
• 36:04
  Oh, it's the Doctor coming out. This is great with Romana being
• 36:07
  like hidden at the back and the doctor coming out.
• 36:10
  Tell me we've got you covered. Who has we have.
• 36:13
  Oh, stand up. Go on.
• 36:15
  Oh, bless him. Yeah.
• 36:18
  I mean, that's not I mean, the layers on this set as well we're
• 36:21
  on is slightly above. I know it's simple things, but
• 36:24
  it's just not things we see in Doctor.
• 36:25
  No, no, no. Like he's, he's really, really
• 36:27
  trying, but just them coming around the corner to give us a
• 36:30
  suggestion of more space. I won criticism this
• 36:34
  cliffhanger. They don't cut to the music
• 36:36
  quick enough. So Baker's very long shocked
• 36:40
  reaction? Yeah, very odd and I'd rather
• 36:43
  that they just cut on the graph, execute them.
• 36:47
  I I wish it were that like. Imagine the stream coming in
• 36:50
  there. Yeah, yeah, yeah, Yeah.
• 36:53
  No, it's Tom's. Bumping to the camera, yeah.
• 36:56
  Yeah, yeah. And having experienced 2
• 36:59
  episodes of me vamping to the camera, you know how agonizing
• 37:02
  that. Is but just together.
• 37:04
  No one makes a fool of the graph in Decay and Lives is such a
• 37:06
  great cold delivery that that should have been the
• 37:10
  cliffhanger. You know I've got a shock
• 37:13
  revelation for you before we out the episode.
• 37:16
  Go on. I think this is one of the very
• 37:18
  rare occasions in Doctor Who in a four parter where episode 3 is
• 37:24
  the best episode of the story. It's amazing.
• 37:28
  It's terrific. It's got all the best Garron and
• 37:31
  Dr. stuff. It's got all the bin row and
• 37:33
  ansto stuff that's really good one loves.
• 37:36
  It's got the, I mean my, and again, I think it was because it
• 37:39
  was a clip on something, but it's the bit where the doctor
• 37:41
  takes the Graf's glove and slaps it back.
• 37:44
  It's so. Good, Martin, how dare you touch
• 37:48
  me? Dare you touch me?
• 37:51
  Gods, do you know what? I'll cut it there.
• 37:54
  I'll cut it there.