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Bestselling Thrills with Robert Dugoni · WriterCon

0:00
Speaker 1: This week on the writer Con podcast.
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Speaker 2: I think that the advice would be to put your
0:06
Speaker 2: button a chair and go to work every day. Don't
0:10
Speaker 2: consider it a hobby if it's not a hobby for you.
0:13
Speaker 2: If you want it to be a career, then make
0:14
Speaker 2: it a career.
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Speaker 3: Welcome to writer Kon, a gathering place for writers to
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Speaker 3: share their knowledge about writing and the writing world. Your
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Speaker 3: hosts are William Bernhardt, best selling novelist and author of
0:25
Speaker 3: the Red Sneaker books on writing, and Laura Bernhardt, Award
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Speaker 3: winning author of the want ln Files book series.
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Speaker 4: Thank you, Jesse Ulrich. Hey, they're writers. Thanks for joining
0:39
Speaker 4: us for this the first episode and what I'm calling
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Speaker 4: writer Con season four. We have some surprises some new
0:47
Speaker 4: features planned for this season, including a new segment for
0:52
Speaker 4: writers called craft Corner. But your hosts, happily will remain
0:57
Speaker 4: the same, Me and my brilliant spouse Lara and our
1:01
Speaker 4: intrepid sound engineer Jesse. Jesse, if you've been enjoying your
1:06
Speaker 4: it hasn't even been a month, But have you been
1:09
Speaker 4: enjoying your break since the last podcast before we launched
1:13
Speaker 4: a diseas in four Yes.
1:14
Speaker 1: It's been so great.
1:15
Speaker 3: Still going through all of the sessions from Rider Khan
1:18
Speaker 3: to pull the recordings together, which I'm still working on.
1:21
Speaker 3: I'm almost done again there it taking a little longer,
1:24
Speaker 3: but yes, it's been good not to have to also
1:27
Speaker 3: have podcast production from you on on top of all that.
1:30
Speaker 4: That's great, Lara. We last heard from you during that
1:34
Speaker 4: live episode. We did a pod at at Ryder Coin
1:38
Speaker 4: which was a blast, that live recording with Kimberly and
1:42
Speaker 4: in April in have you recovered from the conference yet?
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Speaker 5: Recovered from you know, I still kind of have a
1:49
Speaker 5: warm glow going from the conference, but my September just
1:56
Speaker 5: kind of disappeared, like I can't believe we're in October ready.
2:00
Speaker 5: So no, I'm still waiting for I'm still waiting for
2:04
Speaker 5: some downtime.
2:06
Speaker 4: So time to bring up the Halloween decorations. Yes, okay, tonight,
2:13
Speaker 4: we wanted, of course, a super special guest for this
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Speaker 4: our season launch, so I'm pleased to bring you a
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Speaker 4: great friend of the podcast and of the Writer concumference,
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Speaker 4: and that would be New York Times best selling author
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Speaker 4: Robert Degoni. He was last with us in twenty twelve, no.
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Speaker 4: Twenty twenty two, I mean when he was keynote at
2:34
Speaker 4: writer con He's been on the podcast twice before. He's
2:38
Speaker 4: got a new book out now, which is the second
2:40
Speaker 4: in his new legal thriller series featuring a female lawyer,
2:45
Speaker 4: Kira Dugan. The first in the series came out last year,
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Speaker 4: Her Deadly Game. It received tremendous acclaim, sold fantastically, smashed success,
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Speaker 4: and now we've got a new one, the second of
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Speaker 4: the series, Beyond Ree's out. We want to talk to
3:02
Speaker 4: Bob about that and so much more. But first the
3:06
Speaker 4: news first news story. Book bars are gaining momentum, and
3:28
Speaker 4: by this I'm talking about exactly what it sounds like,
3:33
Speaker 4: a bar or a cafe that serves drinks and offers
3:37
Speaker 4: a quiet, safe space where readers can come together and read.
3:42
Speaker 4: The idea, of course, is to create community and to
3:46
Speaker 4: get people away from their screens. But these book bars
3:50
Speaker 4: are really becoming popular, not only in New York City
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Speaker 4: but in other cities as well. The idea is to
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Speaker 4: prioritize solo time with maybe a little low key conversation,
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Speaker 4: record bars, records. I can't read music is playing, but
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Speaker 4: I guess some people can. And the spaces of we're reading, drinking,
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Speaker 4: listening to music, chatting with other book lovers or I'm
4:14
Speaker 4: going to guess ignoring them if you don't want to.
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Speaker 4: There may be booze books, well, there will be books.
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Speaker 4: There may be snacks, but I'm assuming high class snacks
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Speaker 4: like olives or tin fish, something like that.
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Speaker 6: Definitely, definitely CHARCUTERI board at a place like this, Yes,
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Speaker 6: I think you're right, but it's supposed to be a
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Speaker 6: safe place conducive to reading and chatting.
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Speaker 4: Laura. It occurred to me while I was preparing this story.
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Speaker 4: We've been to clubs or groups or gatherings or places
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Speaker 4: they do almost the same thing for board games. You know,
4:51
Speaker 4: they've got a million games and come in and find
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Speaker 4: somebody play a game. Again. We've been to gatherings for
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Speaker 4: film lovers. We've been to places they're basically gathering places
5:02
Speaker 4: for cats and cat lovers. Yes, mine, we get, but
5:07
Speaker 4: never yeah, but never a book bar. Do you see
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Speaker 4: book bar is taking off?
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Speaker 5: I hope so. I love this. I love this so much.
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Speaker 5: It's like a library with wine. I look at that,
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Speaker 5: look at those walls and walls and walls of books,
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Speaker 5: and I get what you're saying about. If you just
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Speaker 5: wanted to read, you might not want the distractions. But
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Speaker 5: if you were looking for something to do, a community
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Speaker 5: to connect with, this to me seems ideal if I
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Speaker 5: was a person who was dating, which I'm not and
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Speaker 5: don't ever expect to be, but glad I don't want
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Speaker 5: to go to a bar. I wouldn't, but this, this
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Speaker 5: makes my heart happy. I can absolutely see going someplace
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Speaker 5: like that, and then you would find like minded people
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Speaker 5: who also love books.
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Speaker 4: Well. See, I always turned to you for the practical view, because,
6:03
Speaker 4: of course, as I read this, I kind of help.
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Speaker 4: But thinking if you want to be left alone to read,
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Speaker 4: shouldn't you just stay home and read. One of the
6:11
Speaker 4: things I think I always liked about reading was I
6:14
Speaker 4: don't have to go anywhere to do it. You know,
6:17
Speaker 4: what do you think would you go?
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Speaker 3: I not only would I go, I have gone. And
6:21
Speaker 3: I should have told you guys about this before you
6:23
Speaker 3: went to Iceland. But there's a book bar in Recubic
6:26
Speaker 3: and we went and it was great. Oh ironically enough,
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Speaker 3: they were also there was also like a live band
6:32
Speaker 3: while we were there, so that sort of took away
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Speaker 3: from the reading aspect of it. But no, like it's
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Speaker 3: if you're like, if you want to go hang out
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Speaker 3: with people and have a conversation. Why not have a
6:44
Speaker 3: lot of books around so you can like talk about
6:46
Speaker 3: your favorites or like, in this case, try to find
6:48
Speaker 3: the most interesting looking Icelandic book that we couldn't actually read,
6:51
Speaker 3: but to look at it was great. Please take off.
6:54
Speaker 3: There's no reason for them not to take off, Like
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Speaker 3: people will buy more books when they're drunk.
7:00
Speaker 1: Son.
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Speaker 4: It works, except I would fall asleep on page two,
7:05
Speaker 4: but I guess that doesn't matter. Why didn't you tell
7:08
Speaker 4: us about the one? And I know now we're going
7:10
Speaker 4: to have to go back?
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Speaker 1: Yes it was.
7:12
Speaker 4: We did go to the Bobby Fisher Museum. That's about
7:15
Speaker 4: the nerdiest thing we did.
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Speaker 5: But the next trip I would like to go during
7:21
Speaker 5: Puffin season.
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Speaker 2: Please.
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Speaker 1: Yeah, I was worried you're going to miss the puffins.
7:25
Speaker 4: We've got a fridge magnet. Isn't that good enough?
7:28
Speaker 5: We got a fridge magnet, and I did see a puffin,
7:30
Speaker 5: but I'd like to see many puffins.
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Speaker 1: You'll go back during Puffin season. I'll tell you about
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Speaker 1: the book bar. It's great.
7:38
Speaker 3: I also tell you about the beer spa up north.
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Speaker 3: It's a completely different topic but also wonderful.
7:43
Speaker 4: Sounds fun. Although we seem to have veered off topics.
7:48
Speaker 4: So let me dragon, here's new story number two.
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Speaker 1: Like you would at a book bar.
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Speaker 4: Well, exactly right, right right, So I never of course,
8:02
Speaker 4: how many times have we been surprised in recent years
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Speaker 4: by what becomes popular. I couldn't have predicted romanticye either,
8:11
Speaker 4: or spicy romance or whatever. But now a new fad
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Speaker 4: in the world of romance is the anti billionaire romance.
8:21
Speaker 4: Because I mean, you've read Fifty Shades of Gray a
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Speaker 4: college student and this very young, incredibly attractive Oh, come on,
8:31
Speaker 4: I know some people have read it. You don't want
8:32
Speaker 4: to admit it, but em had downloaded the sample and
8:36
Speaker 4: was really disappointed because you know, I kept reading and thinking,
8:39
Speaker 4: where's all the kinky sex? This is just like their
8:42
Speaker 4: meeting and he's braiding our hair and stuff. But anyway,
8:45
Speaker 4: fifty Shades of Gray, all the fan fiction based on
8:49
Speaker 4: Harry's styles, which would include that, and a lot of
8:52
Speaker 4: other stuff. Anyway, all of these books, and I think
8:56
Speaker 4: a lot of other books and Hallmark romances and whatnot,
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Speaker 4: haveatured billionaires. And now there seems to be a backlash
9:04
Speaker 4: against that, and people are writing clearly things billed as
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Speaker 4: anti billionaire romances which offer and this is a quote
9:13
Speaker 4: from Jackie Snow, a path to finding joy in the
9:17
Speaker 4: mundane and romanticizing the small, domestic moments of life, something
9:22
Speaker 4: that feels like it's in reach for all of us,
9:25
Speaker 4: not just if you capture the attention of the one percent.
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Speaker 4: So there's some economics and some politics. I mean it
9:33
Speaker 4: sort of makes sense. Well, I don't know. Doesn't make sense.
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Speaker 4: Is it more romantic when the woman falls in love
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Speaker 4: with the pauper because she doesn't care about money, or
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Speaker 4: is it more of a Cinderella type dream when she
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Speaker 4: meets when she falls for the handsome and presumably wealthy prince.
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Speaker 4: I don't know, but these books are very popular, Laura,
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Speaker 4: have you read any anti billionaire books? I don't know
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Speaker 4: what's on your iPad late at night. You could be
10:03
Speaker 4: reading all kinds of things.
10:05
Speaker 5: Well, I have been reading paranormal romance, and I'll be honest.
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Speaker 5: The men in that one money is not an issue.
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Speaker 5: They are vampires who've been around and are just have
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Speaker 5: a mountain of money somewhere. I don't know. They have everything.
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Speaker 7: I'm intrigued by this.
10:26
Speaker 5: I want to go find an anti billionaire book. I
10:30
Speaker 5: like this idea. I like the idea of finding something
10:34
Speaker 5: sweet and romantic, because even in the books that I
10:37
Speaker 5: do read, I find myself more taken with the sweet
10:42
Speaker 5: gestures and they take her on a picnic or tell
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Speaker 5: her why she's the perfect person for them or something.
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Speaker 5: Those quiet tender moments are what do it for me?
10:55
Speaker 5: Not being swept away on something.
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Speaker 4: So well, you're you're you're subtracting the sort of happy element,
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Speaker 4: a happy ending element that you know they're gonna live
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Speaker 4: in wealth, but perhaps making it more romantic if money
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Speaker 4: isn't a factor, Jesse, you possibly haven't read a billionaire
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Speaker 4: or an anti billionaire romance, but if you were going to.
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Speaker 3: Choose one, yeah, of course I would choose these sort
11:25
Speaker 3: of Bernie Sanders romance, a book against.
11:29
Speaker 4: Socialism, Sander Mans, Sandermance. Oh that could catch on.
11:35
Speaker 1: Yeah, trademark like that.
11:38
Speaker 3: Yeah, No, I mean I was thinking of like the
11:40
Speaker 3: incredible weird movie now musical Mulin Rouge, which is also
11:44
Speaker 3: a play.
11:44
Speaker 1: Unlike you know, who's she gonna fall in love with?
11:48
Speaker 3: Like the poor writer versus the rich aristocrat or whatever,
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Speaker 3: Like it's a common It's not surprising to.
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Speaker 1: Me that there'd be a a.
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Speaker 3: Swerve back to that in the party, a swerve back
12:00
Speaker 3: to billionaires later on.
12:01
Speaker 1: Just you know. So it's one of those things where
12:03
Speaker 1: people get their fill.
12:04
Speaker 3: Of one want the other thing, and then they're gonna
12:06
Speaker 3: be like, oh, no, I actually do want some of
12:07
Speaker 3: the money. I do wonder if it's an actual, like
12:12
Speaker 3: like a six months to a year sort of delayed
12:15
Speaker 3: reaction to the economic status of the countries in which
12:19
Speaker 3: these books are sold. And if people are more economically
12:22
Speaker 3: anxious they want to read billionaire romance.
12:24
Speaker 1: If they're less anxious, they're like, no, I'll take a risk. Yeah.
12:27
Speaker 4: Well, if it's just finding a different way of being romantic,
12:32
Speaker 4: I could get that. But some of these stories are
12:35
Speaker 4: pretty clearly addressing class issues, you know, and they're either
12:40
Speaker 4: trying to redeem the billionaires even though they're billionaires, or
12:45
Speaker 4: the characters are trying to take one down or fix
12:48
Speaker 4: an unjust system of capitalism or something like that.
12:52
Speaker 3: This would be like a book, a book about someone
12:55
Speaker 3: who's like deciding whether to fall in love with James
12:57
Speaker 3: Patterson or one of James Parrison's Ghostwriters' like that.
13:01
Speaker 4: I know you get him in there. He's written romances.
13:05
Speaker 4: Of course he's read everything or put his name on
13:08
Speaker 4: one or the other. It seems so strange to me.
13:12
Speaker 4: But then I thought about it. If you go back
13:14
Speaker 4: to what I think, you could argue about it. But
13:17
Speaker 4: what I think is the progenitor of the whole romance genre.
13:21
Speaker 4: Jane Austen does Pride and Prejudice address class and social
13:26
Speaker 4: and money issues. Yeah, it's like all about them. Nobody
13:30
Speaker 4: gives a lecture about them. But it's in the fabric
13:34
Speaker 4: of the character relationships and really every aspect of the story.
13:39
Speaker 4: So maybe it's more of that. All right, Enough of
13:42
Speaker 4: the news when we're launching a new feature in this episode,
13:48
Speaker 4: brief bits of wisdom from experienced writers or people in
13:53
Speaker 4: the book world about various craft writing issues. Who were
13:56
Speaker 4: going to call this craft Corner and who could possibly
14:02
Speaker 4: be the best one except my illustrious, award winning wife,
14:07
Speaker 4: author of seven books, Laura Burnhardt. Let's go to craft
14:11
Speaker 4: Corner Craft Corner today.
14:17
Speaker 5: On Craft Corner, I want to talk about conflict. I
14:21
Speaker 5: see a lot of manuscripts by newer authors who don't
14:28
Speaker 5: quite understand conflict doesn't have to be bombs, it doesn't
14:33
Speaker 5: have to be car chases, it doesn't have to be fistfights,
14:36
Speaker 5: it doesn't even have to be an argument.
14:38
Speaker 7: When we're writing novels, conflict.
14:41
Speaker 5: Refers to anything that keeps the protagonist from achieving the
14:45
Speaker 5: goal that they want. And so within the novel, you're
14:49
Speaker 5: going to have something keeping them from getting their overarching
14:52
Speaker 5: ultimate goal.
14:53
Speaker 8: But also, as you're moving through chapter by chapter and
14:56
Speaker 8: seen by scene, you need to have little roadblocks along
14:59
Speaker 8: the way, and as they hurdle those and progress in
15:06
Speaker 8: their journey, you're also forwarding your plot.
15:10
Speaker 5: It's very important not to.
15:14
Speaker 2: If you're reading.
15:14
Speaker 5: If you're reading your story and you realize that it's
15:17
Speaker 5: kind of boring, it's not interesting anymore. If the author
15:21
Speaker 5: find that to be boring, your reader is absolutely going
15:24
Speaker 5: to be bored with it. So another.
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Speaker 7: Habit that I see a lot of.
15:32
Speaker 5: Is kind of injecting false conflict, something that feels very fabricated, and.
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Speaker 4: We see that a lot of retreats and whatnot. Don't
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Speaker 4: you think people who want to launch their manuscript with
15:47
Speaker 4: something big and exciting, which is a good instinct at
15:50
Speaker 4: least for some kinds of books, but then they end
15:52
Speaker 4: up having bombs going off, or car chases or torture
15:58
Speaker 4: scenes that don't really land because you don't know who
16:01
Speaker 4: these people are, you don't have time, you don't care
16:04
Speaker 4: about them yet it just seems kind of icky. And
16:08
Speaker 4: that's not the best way to create conflict, much less
16:11
Speaker 4: start a story. Don't you think.
16:13
Speaker 2: That's absolutely right?
16:14
Speaker 5: And sometimes on top of that, you have two or
16:17
Speaker 5: three pages of that and you are starting to get
16:19
Speaker 5: hooked and starting to get invested, and they wake up
16:22
Speaker 5: from a dream or everything grinds.
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Speaker 2: To a halt. That would be the worst. That is
16:27
Speaker 2: the worst.
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Speaker 1: Everything brinds to a.
16:29
Speaker 8: Halt because.
16:31
Speaker 5: Suddenly you launch into backstory. Well, let me just explain
16:34
Speaker 5: what's going on here and all the stuff that led
16:36
Speaker 5: up to this, take it back.
16:38
Speaker 4: That would be the worst.
16:39
Speaker 5: And I sadly have seen some stuff. So yes, you
16:43
Speaker 5: have the right idea that you're trying to launch it
16:45
Speaker 5: with something exciting, but you need that conflict to be
16:49
Speaker 5: organic and feels exactly right. You need to give your
16:53
Speaker 5: reader a moment to become invested in the story and
16:56
Speaker 5: care about your protagonist. Give them something to fight for
17:03
Speaker 5: that that reader can connect with. If we see them
17:05
Speaker 5: fighting for something that we can get behind and fight for. Now,
17:08
Speaker 5: we want to see them win. We want to see
17:11
Speaker 5: them succeed, and then every step of the way until
17:15
Speaker 5: the very end, when hopefully they achieve their goal, or
17:19
Speaker 5: if they don't, depending on what type of book you're writing,
17:22
Speaker 5: they have some other satisfying resolution. If it isn't achieved,
17:27
Speaker 5: they realize maybe it wasn't the right thing after all,
17:30
Speaker 5: and they have a new goal, so something results at
17:32
Speaker 5: the end. But conflict can simply mean I really want
17:38
Speaker 5: this end goal and I can't get to it, and
17:42
Speaker 5: what And you determine what's keeping them from it, and
17:44
Speaker 5: ideally your character has something that will help them achieve
17:50
Speaker 5: that goal in the long run. It could be something
17:52
Speaker 5: that they have to rediscover about themselves, something that they
17:55
Speaker 5: lost along the way that they regain. There are kinds
17:58
Speaker 5: of ways to make this very emotion all for your readers.
18:03
Speaker 5: But don't confuse things happen that don't. Don't confuse little
18:08
Speaker 5: mundane things happening as No, I have conflict. I have
18:12
Speaker 5: stuff going on you. If it's not contributing to your
18:15
Speaker 5: story or your plot, it really isn't conflict. If it's
18:19
Speaker 5: I want to make a cake and I oh my gosh,
18:22
Speaker 5: I ran out of eggs and I forgotten. I have
18:24
Speaker 5: to go to the store and get egg That's not conflict,
18:28
Speaker 5: that's not tension, that's that's just mundane what we all
18:31
Speaker 5: go through every single day. And that's not going to
18:34
Speaker 5: help serve your story.
18:36
Speaker 4: No, But if the eggs were missing and nobody knew why,
18:40
Speaker 4: I was going to say, at the grocery, a mystery
18:43
Speaker 4: while you're there.
18:44
Speaker 5: And if you need exactly So if if that's exactly,
18:49
Speaker 5: you would need to include something pertaining to the story.
18:53
Speaker 5: That that is how that works. Yeah, you open the
18:55
Speaker 5: door and come to the exite is bought. Now we've
18:58
Speaker 5: got something interesting. Or do you drive to the store
19:01
Speaker 5: like Jesse said, and there's a dead body in front
19:04
Speaker 5: of the eggs whatever? I don't know.
19:07
Speaker 4: No, I'm interested.
19:08
Speaker 5: Yeah, where the carton of eggs is a portal to
19:10
Speaker 5: another universe, you.
19:13
Speaker 2: Should be.
19:15
Speaker 4: But there are no billionaires there. Thank you, Laura. That
19:22
Speaker 4: was terrific and I appreciate you taking the plunge and
19:25
Speaker 4: launching craft Corner My pleasure. Now yeah, now let's talk
19:32
Speaker 4: to Robert Degoney. Robert Degony, welcome back to the podcast.
19:47
Speaker 2: Hey Bill, thanks for having me. Hi, Laura, thanks see you.
19:51
Speaker 4: Okay, you know the usual first question, if you could
19:54
Speaker 4: offer writers one piece of advice today, because maybe your
19:57
Speaker 4: opinion has changed since last two when you're on the podcast.
20:02
Speaker 4: But if you could offer writers one piece of advice,
20:05
Speaker 4: what would it be.
20:07
Speaker 2: I think that the advice would be to put your
20:11
Speaker 2: butt in a chair and go to work every day.
20:14
Speaker 2: Don't consider it a hobby if it's not a hobby
20:17
Speaker 2: for you. If you want it to be a career,
20:18
Speaker 2: then make it a career. Because readers can be fickle,
20:23
Speaker 2: and if you're putting out a book every couple of
20:26
Speaker 2: years and you don't have an established following, it's going
20:30
Speaker 2: to make it more and more difficult to get an
20:32
Speaker 2: established following. So you know, my advice is to put
20:36
Speaker 2: your butt in the chair and go to work every day.
20:39
Speaker 4: Good advice.
20:40
Speaker 2: You know.
20:40
Speaker 4: As many times as we've talked, I don't think I've
20:42
Speaker 4: ever asked you how did you get interested in writing?
20:45
Speaker 4: How did this begin for you?
20:50
Speaker 2: I was a bit of a shit in grammar school.
20:52
Speaker 2: I had an older sibling.
20:55
Speaker 4: This is already not the usual answer to this question,
20:57
Speaker 4: so already.
21:00
Speaker 2: So I kind of thought, you know, I was the
21:03
Speaker 2: little tough guy at school, and I got in a
21:07
Speaker 2: lot of trouble I had had some friends. They actually
21:10
Speaker 2: split our class up, and all kinds of stuff. But
21:14
Speaker 2: in her about the sixth grade, had a beautiful nun
21:19
Speaker 2: by the name of Sister Mary Williams. She was older
21:22
Speaker 2: and she liked boys, which was unusual because most nuns
21:26
Speaker 2: liked the girls in the class and didn't like the
21:28
Speaker 2: boys because we were the trouble makers. What she called
21:32
Speaker 2: my mother in and she said, he's a good boy,
21:35
Speaker 2: but I think he's bored. I think we needed to
21:38
Speaker 2: give him something more to do. So my mom, before
21:40
Speaker 2: she started having ten children, had been an English teacher,
21:45
Speaker 2: and she had all these books at home that she
21:46
Speaker 2: started to hand me to read. The Count of Monte Cristo,
21:49
Speaker 2: the Old Man in the Sea, the Great Gatspy of Mice,
21:52
Speaker 2: and Men to Kill a Mockingbird. I mean, you name
21:55
Speaker 2: him the Great, the Red Badge of Courage.
21:59
Speaker 4: I read them all, hmmm.
22:01
Speaker 2: And I loved them. I fell in love with stories,
22:03
Speaker 2: and really from that moment forward, I wanted to do
22:06
Speaker 2: something where I could create stories, whether that was theatrically,
22:10
Speaker 2: which I did for a while in San Francisco, or
22:13
Speaker 2: whether it was actually penning stories. I also was a
22:17
Speaker 2: journalist for a long time. It wrote a lot of
22:19
Speaker 2: feature pieces, but that was really the beginning.
22:22
Speaker 4: Wow. I mean what impresses me most about that is
22:27
Speaker 4: at the time in your life when I was reading
22:29
Speaker 4: mostly comic books, you were reading The Great Gatsby and
22:33
Speaker 4: liking it. I don't think I really liked it the
22:36
Speaker 4: first three times I read it. I had to grow
22:38
Speaker 4: into that, but you were there already, all right.
22:42
Speaker 2: So I started with the Count of Monte Cristo. And
22:44
Speaker 2: that's a great advent, like.
22:45
Speaker 4: A thousand pages long, right.
22:47
Speaker 2: Yeah, it was.
22:49
Speaker 1: It was.
22:49
Speaker 2: But there's treasure, and there's escaping from prisons and all times.
22:53
Speaker 4: So it was great, very impressive. And somehow this interest
22:58
Speaker 4: in books, uh, turned into writing, not just things you mentioned,
23:02
Speaker 4: but of course many novels. How many novels now so far?
23:06
Speaker 2: But I think by the end of the year I'll
23:08
Speaker 2: have almost thirty.
23:10
Speaker 4: Yeah good, I was going to guess twenty something, and
23:13
Speaker 4: so I'm glad I didn't.
23:16
Speaker 2: It's somewhere in that neighborhood, okay.
23:18
Speaker 4: And we're talking about numerous books that have been New
23:21
Speaker 4: York Times bestsellers. The Tracy Crosswait police Procedurals, You've written,
23:27
Speaker 4: spy novels. I think the first time you're on the podcast,
23:30
Speaker 4: you were talking about your literary Vietnam novel, The World
23:34
Speaker 4: Played Chess, correct, and now you've got a legal thriller series.
23:38
Speaker 4: The first volume came out last year. Her Deadly Game
23:41
Speaker 4: got smash reviews, including I have to point out I
23:45
Speaker 4: saw this this morning, a great endorsement from Lisa Gardner,
23:50
Speaker 4: who was the keynote at Ryder Coon the year after
23:53
Speaker 4: you were. She was last year's note endorsing the year before.
23:57
Speaker 4: And anyway, great reviews from all over the place. That
24:02
Speaker 4: must have felt good seeing your new book and new
24:04
Speaker 4: series greeted with such a positive response.
24:07
Speaker 2: Yeah, oh, you know, always always I think you know,
24:10
Speaker 2: you know how it is, Bill, I mean, you always
24:12
Speaker 2: have a little bit of doubt. You think he wrote
24:14
Speaker 2: a good book, you think he wrote a strong book,
24:16
Speaker 2: but you just you know, you never know how it's
24:17
Speaker 2: going to be received. And the World Play Her Deadly
24:24
Speaker 2: Game was just received so favorably. I think we're over
24:29
Speaker 2: twenty five thousand, maybe thirty thousand reviews on Amazon and
24:32
Speaker 2: Goodreads and all that stuff, so you know, a lot
24:35
Speaker 2: of people really really found it, and for me it
24:38
Speaker 2: was it was great fun to write. It was great
24:40
Speaker 2: to get back to writing a legal thriller. But it's
24:43
Speaker 2: got a little bit of a different twist on it,
24:45
Speaker 2: which I which I did on purpose. You know, when
24:48
Speaker 2: when my editor, Gracie Doyle at Thomas and Mercer said,
24:51
Speaker 2: you know, we'd like you to consider doing another legal
24:55
Speaker 2: thriller series, which is how I started with the David
24:57
Speaker 2: Sloan series, I said I would do it, but I
24:59
Speaker 2: want to to do it in my way. I didn't
25:01
Speaker 2: want it to be just a strict courtroom novel. I
25:03
Speaker 2: wanted it to have police procedural and I wanted to
25:06
Speaker 2: have family dynamics, and so I created this family law
25:10
Speaker 2: firm and they're all dysfunctional. Everybody in the law firm
25:13
Speaker 2: is dysfunctional, and and you know, readers really seemed to
25:18
Speaker 2: pick up on it.
25:18
Speaker 4: So I was really clean, fantastic.
25:22
Speaker 7: That new character is Kira, right, Kira Dougging, Kia Dugging.
25:28
Speaker 2: Her real name is spelled C I A R, a
25:32
Speaker 2: Irish name, but she she began to spell it as
25:38
Speaker 2: it sounds because so many people would screw it up.
25:42
Speaker 5: I understand that.
25:44
Speaker 7: I get a lot of that with Laura.
25:46
Speaker 2: Actually, your name is spelled different than than the usual Laura,
25:51
Speaker 2: isn't it Yep?
25:52
Speaker 5: I'm named after doctor Chivago character, which, oh, I thoroughly appreciate.
25:57
Speaker 5: I'm so happy my mom gave me a literary name
25:59
Speaker 5: before or she even knew.
26:02
Speaker 2: You also come from a literary family.
26:05
Speaker 7: It sounds like you might think that, but no, I think.
26:09
Speaker 2: That she liked the movie. Was her name Christina a
26:15
Speaker 2: little differently she spells at c R not c H. Oh. Yeah,
26:19
Speaker 2: and I forget, I forget why that is. But yeah,
26:23
Speaker 2: it's interesting. Well, tell us about my kids, Katherine Joe,
26:28
Speaker 2: So there was nothing.
26:32
Speaker 5: Yeah, well, can you tell us about beyond a reasonable doubt?
26:39
Speaker 5: And where did you Where did you get the idea
26:40
Speaker 5: of having this serious character represent a childhood friend of me?
26:47
Speaker 2: So really I kind of started with an idea. I
26:51
Speaker 2: wanted to have Kira represented a person that was taking
26:57
Speaker 2: advantage of people's medical needs, medical issues. Right, there's been
27:03
Speaker 2: a lot in the news about you know, companies like
27:08
Speaker 2: bitcoin and all that, where they basically fake it until
27:13
Speaker 2: you make it type of strategy, and I thought, you know,
27:17
Speaker 2: that would really be sort of the epitome of horror
27:21
Speaker 2: when it was something that could medically help people. So
27:24
Speaker 2: I have a very good friend who I refer to
27:27
Speaker 2: as doctor Dan, and then I golf with Doctor Dan.
27:30
Speaker 2: Dan's had Parkinson's for seventeen years and he's still out there.
27:35
Speaker 2: You know, he's still going forward. He's a really knowledgeable man.
27:39
Speaker 2: He is a doctor. And I said, you know, I
27:41
Speaker 2: told him my idea, and I said, he got any thoughts,
27:44
Speaker 2: And he's very up on the topic. And he told
27:48
Speaker 2: me that there was a there was research being done
27:53
Speaker 2: in which it's called tissue nano transfection, which is where
27:58
Speaker 2: they can take skin cells and through an electrical charge
28:03
Speaker 2: and I don't know the whole thing, but through an
28:05
Speaker 2: electrical charge through the nucleus, they can change the nature
28:08
Speaker 2: of the skin cells. And right now what they've been
28:12
Speaker 2: able to do is apply an electrical charge that will
28:15
Speaker 2: help wounds heal more quickly. But they're hoping that eventually
28:20
Speaker 2: they'll be able to change the cell to say cells
28:22
Speaker 2: that delivered dopamine, which is what Parkinson's patients need, or
28:28
Speaker 2: cells that will help people with Alzheimer's, cells that will
28:32
Speaker 2: regenerate tissue and stuff when people have heart disease. So
28:39
Speaker 2: almost a way of treating people without invasive surgery. Now this.
28:45
Speaker 2: It's a ways off, but it was the kind of
28:47
Speaker 2: idea that for me was just what I wanted. I
28:51
Speaker 2: could I could make it. You know, this, this person
28:53
Speaker 2: that started this company could make it sound that they're
28:55
Speaker 2: on the cusp of this. So this woman is the
28:59
Speaker 2: CEO of this company. She's young, she's beautiful, she's magnetic,
29:04
Speaker 2: she's charismatic, and you know, she gets all these people
29:09
Speaker 2: to invest because she believes. Well, five years earlier, her
29:15
Speaker 2: chief scientist, who was going to blow the whistle that
29:18
Speaker 2: the company was not where she said it was, ends
29:22
Speaker 2: up dead and she's defended by Patsy dug and Kara's father,
29:26
Speaker 2: who gets her off. Now, five years later, her lover,
29:29
Speaker 2: who is also the CFO of the company, is found
29:32
Speaker 2: shot to death, and she's again suspected of killing him,
29:36
Speaker 2: and this time, because Patsy is retired from trying cases,
29:40
Speaker 2: Kira has to step forward and defend her. The problem is,
29:44
Speaker 2: Kiara knows her, probably all too well, because she grew
29:47
Speaker 2: up with her, went to school with her, and has
29:49
Speaker 2: always considered her to be a sociopath, if not a psychopath.
29:56
Speaker 4: And the nice thing about that is that it makes it,
29:59
Speaker 4: you know, just Perry Mason's Case of the Week. It's
30:05
Speaker 4: an attorney who has a vested interest and a real
30:08
Speaker 4: connection to the client. Right, I think makes a great story.
30:12
Speaker 2: And so you know, do you is she going to
30:16
Speaker 2: free a guilty person? Is she gonna, you know, fail
30:20
Speaker 2: to free an innocent person? I mean, this woman, Jenna
30:24
Speaker 2: is her name, Jenna Burnstein, is an adept liar, and
30:28
Speaker 2: so it's very hard for Kia to get a read
30:31
Speaker 2: on whether she's being told the truth or not. And remember,
30:34
Speaker 2: Kia is really good at reading people because she's a
30:38
Speaker 2: chess prodigy. She spent her life playing competitive chess across
30:42
Speaker 2: the table from opponents and could tell when they were bluffing,
30:45
Speaker 2: when they were nervous, when they had failed to consider
30:48
Speaker 2: what she was doing. But she has trouble reading Jenna
30:50
Speaker 2: because she's she's a sociopath.
30:54
Speaker 4: Okay, here I have to intervene, Laura. I know you
30:56
Speaker 4: have a question already, but I don't know if you
31:00
Speaker 4: know this or not. Bob, but when you were at writer, come,
31:04
Speaker 4: you're a keynote. You're not only the keynote, you are
31:07
Speaker 4: also the solution to Final Jeopardy Writer con Jeopardy that
31:12
Speaker 4: you are final Jeopardy at all to do with knowing
31:17
Speaker 4: what game is mentioned in the title of what was then?
31:20
Speaker 4: I think your most recent book, But the winning team
31:24
Speaker 4: knew the answer, So there you go, right, Just it's
31:28
Speaker 4: important to your work.
31:32
Speaker 7: Well, what does a typical writing day look like for you?
31:37
Speaker 7: What's your what's your process like?
31:41
Speaker 2: So I try to work out six days a week.
31:44
Speaker 2: My son gave me a book along well, probably about
31:47
Speaker 2: five years ago, called Younger Next Year, and it's about
31:51
Speaker 2: how to you know, how to slow the aging process
31:54
Speaker 2: if you will, how to maintain health and that really
31:57
Speaker 2: comes down to I won't boy all with it, but
31:59
Speaker 2: just working out six days a week. So some of
32:03
Speaker 2: those mornings, I get up early and I go to
32:05
Speaker 2: a workout class with my wife from like six thirty
32:08
Speaker 2: to seven thirty. I come home, have a little breakfast,
32:11
Speaker 2: I'm at my desk, and I'm at my desk until
32:13
Speaker 2: late in the afternoon, you know, depending on what I
32:15
Speaker 2: have to get done, but usually it's late in the afternoon.
32:18
Speaker 2: In the summers here in Seattle, it's beautiful because the
32:21
Speaker 2: sun is up until nine o'clock at night, and I
32:23
Speaker 2: can sneak out at six and go play eighteen holes
32:25
Speaker 2: a go. In the winter, I guess dark early, so
32:28
Speaker 2: if I want to get out to the driving range
32:30
Speaker 2: or play some holes, I got to cut off a
32:32
Speaker 2: little bit earlier today before thirty. But you know, I
32:36
Speaker 2: was at my desk this morning at six am because
32:38
Speaker 2: this is my morning to do pilates at ten, So
32:41
Speaker 2: you know, I think my I think the bottom line is,
32:45
Speaker 2: I think it's very important for riders to get the
32:47
Speaker 2: endorphins going, whether that's through exercise or you know, going
32:52
Speaker 2: for a run, whatever, whatever it is that gets your
32:54
Speaker 2: endorphins going before you sit down, so that when you
32:56
Speaker 2: sit down you're sort of energized and charts and you
32:59
Speaker 2: can dig write into whatever you have to do. My
33:02
Speaker 2: writing this morning is I have I have a to
33:05
Speaker 2: do list, I have some social media questions after the answer.
33:09
Speaker 2: I have some questions after answer for an interview. This
33:13
Speaker 2: was on my agenda and so when I sat down
33:15
Speaker 2: this morning, I started on editing my latest book which
33:20
Speaker 2: I'm about to turn in, which is the third book
33:22
Speaker 2: in the Kraduan series, which is called Her Cold Justice.
33:26
Speaker 2: So that's where my my focus has been until I
33:30
Speaker 2: took pilates from nine to ten, and now I'm speaking
33:33
Speaker 2: to you all. But I think my point, Laura is
33:38
Speaker 2: I don't treat this as a hobby. I love it
33:40
Speaker 2: and I love what I do, but it's a job
33:44
Speaker 2: for me, and I've always been very self motivated. I
33:47
Speaker 2: tell people I have one shitty employee that I have
33:50
Speaker 2: to deal with and that's me. But it's work, you know,
33:58
Speaker 2: I go to work every day.
34:00
Speaker 1: Right.
34:02
Speaker 5: Well, you mentioned that you live in Seattle, and this
34:06
Speaker 5: book is in Seattle as well.
34:09
Speaker 7: Did you do that for a reason?
34:11
Speaker 2: Was that? Like, what did you have?
34:13
Speaker 7: Is it convenience or something else?
34:15
Speaker 2: A lot of it is convenience. A lot of it
34:17
Speaker 2: is being able to write knowledgeably about the setting that
34:21
Speaker 2: the characters live in so that people don't pick it
34:23
Speaker 2: up and go whoa, whoa, whoa. Wait wait a minute,
34:25
Speaker 2: that that doesn't happen in Seattle, that doesn't happen in
34:28
Speaker 2: Oklahoma City. I mean, we don't have those things, you know.
34:31
Speaker 2: I want to be I want I want the setting
34:34
Speaker 2: to be as real as possible that the characters are
34:36
Speaker 2: living in, so that readers readers perceive it as as
34:40
Speaker 2: a true story. I think one of the best compliments
34:45
Speaker 2: that any writer can get is when someone finishes your
34:48
Speaker 2: book and emails you and says, is this was this true?
34:53
Speaker 2: It's a true event? Is this based on a true story?
34:57
Speaker 2: And I get that quite a bit, So that's kind
34:58
Speaker 2: of fun.
35:00
Speaker 4: Means it seems real to them. I have a question
35:03
Speaker 4: I wanted to ask about this new series and the
35:06
Speaker 4: new book. Beyond reasonable doubt that maybe one of those
35:09
Speaker 4: deep rabbit holes that only interest me. But why a
35:12
Speaker 4: female protagonist? You know, when I was first started write
35:16
Speaker 4: in the nineties, I used to hear people complying, oh,
35:20
Speaker 4: men shouldn't write female protagonists, they don't know anything, which
35:24
Speaker 4: I obviously didn't listen to since I've done it many times.
35:27
Speaker 4: But I'm curious why you made that decision.
35:31
Speaker 2: Yeah, you know, Bill, I run into the same thing,
35:33
Speaker 2: and I always I always say the same thing is
35:35
Speaker 2: I don't try to write from the perspective of a woman.
35:38
Speaker 2: I try to write from the perspective of a character
35:41
Speaker 2: who has skeletons in her closet that she's trying to
35:45
Speaker 2: deal with, which is a universal trait that is not
35:47
Speaker 2: dependent upon gender at all. And so yes, there are
35:52
Speaker 2: nuances that make men and women different. But I think
35:56
Speaker 2: the more that writers try to highlight that, the more ridiculous.
35:59
Speaker 2: It sounds because I think inside we all have the
36:01
Speaker 2: same core values that that we want. We want a
36:05
Speaker 2: good family, a good house, a safe place to live,
36:08
Speaker 2: you know, a good job we can make money, to
36:11
Speaker 2: be treated with respect and honor. You know, all those
36:14
Speaker 2: things are sort of a universal trait. Now, I'd be
36:17
Speaker 2: lying to you if I didn't say that there was
36:20
Speaker 2: also a business decision for it. And one of the
36:24
Speaker 2: business decisions is, you know, a large percentage of readers
36:29
Speaker 2: out there are women, and for a long time, women
36:33
Speaker 2: I think were underrepresented in the thriller world. You know,
36:36
Speaker 2: thrillers were all about you know men, you know, you know,
36:40
Speaker 2: raising across the world to save the planet and James
36:42
Speaker 2: Bond and Jack Reacher and you know all those guys.
36:46
Speaker 2: And you know, I wanted, I wanted to create a
36:50
Speaker 2: character that that was that was female, that that could
36:55
Speaker 2: do all those same things, but maybe do it a
36:58
Speaker 2: little bit more intuitively. You know, people have often talked
37:02
Speaker 2: to me and asked, you know, they'll say things like,
37:05
Speaker 2: you know, do you think we we'll ever have a
37:06
Speaker 2: female president? And I'll say, I hope so someday, because
37:10
Speaker 2: you know, I think that women have qualities that can
37:14
Speaker 2: could really benefit that men don't necessarily have, you know.
37:20
Speaker 2: So my decision with Tracy cross White and with Kira
37:26
Speaker 2: Dugan was based upon growing up with four sisters, all
37:30
Speaker 2: of them are professional, working in a profession as a
37:33
Speaker 2: lawyer for fifteen years with a lot of very competent,
37:38
Speaker 2: successful female lawyers, and then also taking into consideration some
37:43
Speaker 2: of the things I learned along the way, like here's
37:46
Speaker 2: something I never thought about. And I remember when I
37:49
Speaker 2: was trying the case with a woman, a female lawyer,
37:53
Speaker 2: and she just looked really frazzled. And I went in
37:55
Speaker 2: and said, what can I help you with? And she
37:57
Speaker 2: looked at me and she said, I just don't know
37:59
Speaker 2: what I I'm going to cook my family for dinner tonight. Yeah,
38:03
Speaker 2: I mean, I'll always remember that because it was completely
38:07
Speaker 2: and totally foreign to me. That was a real concern
38:10
Speaker 2: for her. Now, did you not have a husband that
38:13
Speaker 2: would do it? You know? I don't know, I mean,
38:15
Speaker 2: but it was definitely something that made me stop and ponder.
38:19
Speaker 2: So I just think there's a lot of little nuances
38:23
Speaker 2: there that readers can really identify with.
38:27
Speaker 4: Yeah, I would agree. Oh, one last question, then, what's
38:33
Speaker 4: coming up next? From you?
38:35
Speaker 2: You and I were talking a little bit before we
38:37
Speaker 2: started the podcast. I'm going to have like four books
38:40
Speaker 2: out in fourteen months, so it's been really crazy this year.
38:45
Speaker 2: So after Beyond Reasonable Doubt, I have a new book
38:50
Speaker 2: coming out called hold Strong. Actually have an arc of it.
38:54
Speaker 2: Can I go grab it with you? Sure?
38:56
Speaker 4: Please do well. I'll comment on the fact that while
39:02
Speaker 4: you have a paperback version of Beyond Reasonable Doubt behind
39:05
Speaker 4: your head, I have the hardcover. I don't know what
39:08
Speaker 4: that says, but maybe your pr people like me better. Hudah.
39:14
Speaker 2: So this is hold Strong. It's a World War two novel,
39:18
Speaker 2: but it's a World War two story that's really never
39:20
Speaker 2: been told. It's about prisoners of war being kept in
39:24
Speaker 2: what we're called Japanese hell ships and sort of transported
39:29
Speaker 2: around the Pacific Ocean. So the two gentlemen that I
39:32
Speaker 2: wrote this with, Jeff Langhols and Chris Crabtree, did an
39:36
Speaker 2: unbelievable amount of research, ten years of research, and I
39:39
Speaker 2: helped them put the story together. So this will be
39:42
Speaker 2: out in January. I'm really excited about it. I love
39:45
Speaker 2: the characters, and it's got a really strong female character
39:48
Speaker 2: in it, a very strong a male character as well,
39:51
Speaker 2: that'll be out in January. Then the next Tracy Crosswhite book,
39:55
Speaker 2: which is called A Deadly Draw, will be out leave
40:00
Speaker 2: in April or May, followed by the author Ris Dugan
40:05
Speaker 2: book which is called Her Cold Justice. And that's the
40:08
Speaker 2: book that I was working on before I jumped on
40:11
Speaker 2: here to talk to you, So Her Cold Justice, Old Justice.
40:16
Speaker 2: So those will be That's that's what's that's what's upcoming.
40:19
Speaker 2: I have I have some events that I'll be doing, luncheons,
40:24
Speaker 2: things like that, but I'm sort of looking forward to
40:28
Speaker 2: the holiday season and slowing.
40:29
Speaker 4: Down a little bit, staying home more. Yeah, yeah, yeah,
40:33
Speaker 4: that sounds good. Hey, thanks once again for being a
40:37
Speaker 4: guest on the podcast. I don't know if you know it,
40:41
Speaker 4: but you're kicking off season four for us, so you're
40:44
Speaker 4: the big gun today. Thanks for showing up, Thanks.
40:48
Speaker 2: For thanks for having me. As always, you run an
40:51
Speaker 2: incredible conference out there in Oklahoma City called Ryder Con.
40:56
Speaker 2: I get questions about it all the time because I have.
40:58
Speaker 4: The hattat I got a picture of that.
41:02
Speaker 2: Yeah yeah, and it's it's really a great conference. So,
41:05
Speaker 2: you know, a plug for anyone out there that's that's
41:08
Speaker 2: working on their craft or wants to work on their craft.
41:11
Speaker 2: Go see Bill and Laura in Oklahoma City at ryder Con.
41:15
Speaker 4: Great. Well, thank you so much and thanks for being
41:17
Speaker 4: on the podcast again, my pleasure. By now, just a
41:27
Speaker 4: few parting words. We're aways off, of course, from future
41:31
Speaker 4: writer Con programs. The cruise which is going to Alaska
41:36
Speaker 4: this year. That's not till late March. You can check
41:39
Speaker 4: that out on the rider Con website. The retreat at
41:42
Speaker 4: Cane Break beautiful resort, luxury resort, luxury resort. That is
41:48
Speaker 4: what I meant to say. It's in July, so that's
41:53
Speaker 4: the ways in the future, although there's information about them
41:55
Speaker 4: now on the website and you can read all about
41:58
Speaker 4: it and even register because spaces probably will fill. But
42:03
Speaker 4: in the meantime, what I was trying to say is,
42:05
Speaker 4: let me remind you that writer Con has its own newsletter.
42:08
Speaker 4: You don't want to miss that. It's free. Why would you.
42:11
Speaker 4: We've got articles on breaking issues and books, audiobooks, pr marketing, everything.
42:19
Speaker 4: Go to substack and search for writer Con and sign
42:23
Speaker 4: up for that. And if you haven't joined the writer
42:25
Speaker 4: Con Facebook group yet, please do again, totally free. Just
42:29
Speaker 4: go on Facebook, look for writer Con and join this
42:33
Speaker 4: wonderful community of writers. All right, until next time. Did
42:38
Speaker 4: you think I was going to change this for season four?
42:41
Speaker 4: I'm not. Until next time. Keep writing and remember you
42:47
Speaker 4: cannot fail if you refuse to quit. So see you
42:51
Speaker 4: next time. The boats are spent
43:09
Speaker 3: By fast