Latest / Outskirts Film Podcast / #016 - Hardcore Auteurism: The Films of Gerard Damiano

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#016 - Hardcore Auteurism: The Films of Gerard Damiano · Outskirts Film Podcast

• 0:18
  SPEAKER_08: Welcome back to the Outskirts Film Podcast after our summer recess.
• 0:23
  SPEAKER_08: Due to popular demand, we have decided now to pivot in this first episode of the second season to a subject that everyone has spent the summer months discussing, debating, and writing countless numbers of words about.
• 0:39
  SPEAKER_08: That is the Odyssey.
• 0:41
  SPEAKER_08: That's right, folks.
• 0:42
  SPEAKER_08: We've listened to your many calls for a fresh direction.
• 0:45
  SPEAKER_08: And so to kick off this new season, we're gonna speak about 1977's The Odyssey Ultimate Trip by acclaimed pornographic filmmaker Gerard Deliano.
• 0:56
  SPEAKER_08: I'm Christopher Small, and today on the podcast, I'm joined as ever by my co-hosts.
• 1:02
  SPEAKER_05: Hello, I'm weak!
• 1:05
  SPEAKER_08: I'm glad someone's laughing, at least.
• 1:08
  SPEAKER_07: I'm Alonso Glare, ready to engage with the bizarre world of fantasy.
• 1:12
  SPEAKER_08: So, we are interested in outsider artists here at the Outskirts Film Podcast for obvious reasons.
• 1:19
  SPEAKER_08: Marginal and often problematic figures and genres that may have once found a fleeting moment in the critical spotlight, but otherwise remain decidedly uncomfortably on the outskirts of respectable cinephile taste.
• 1:34
  SPEAKER_08: The filmmaker Gerard Demiano, in that sense, may be a strange pick for our second season opener.
• 1:40
  SPEAKER_08: After all, he's the closest the hardcore filmmaker ever came to being a household name across the United States.
• 1:46
  SPEAKER_08: And that's obviously because he directed the most famous adult film of all time, Deep Throat.
• 1:50
  SPEAKER_08: A navy veteran and hairdresser from Queens, New York, Gerard Damiano shot that film with mob money over a week in 1972, right inside a narrow legal window when US obscenity law made it briefly possible to shoot and distribute a hardcore film, since prosecutors had to prove that the film had no artistic value.
• 2:09
  SPEAKER_08: A year later, the Supreme Court closed that loophole, substituting more localized obscenity laws in its place.
• 2:15
  SPEAKER_08: This placed Damiano in a mess of legal battles that he would continue to wrangle with for the long time afterwards.
• 2:21
  SPEAKER_08: But in many ways, Deep Throat is the least interesting thing about this amazing filmmaker.
• 2:26
  SPEAKER_08: It is something of a rushed, loungy, problematic object that stands in stark contrast with the more ambitious works its maker would make off the back of it.
• 2:35
  SPEAKER_08: Over time, Gerard Damiano established a sort of hardcore repertory company, Harry Reims, Georgina Spelvin, Jamie Gillis, Annie Sprinkle to name a few, and produced a serious and quixotic body of work, the bulk of which was made in the so-called pornochic boom of the 1970s, but which continued substantially into the 80s as well.
• 2:54
  SPEAKER_08: Damiano kept working into the mid-1990s, long after video had transformed the industry, and thus longer than most artistically ambitious pornographic filmmakers who came of age in the 70s.
• 3:06
  SPEAKER_08: Damiano eventually died in Florida in 2008 after a healthy retirement, a few weeks after a huge birthday celebration and reunion that saw many of his beloved former stars trek down to Florida to celebrate with the master.
• 3:19
  SPEAKER_08: I'm wondering if we shouldn't, Alonzo and Urku, get the discussion of Deep Throat, which remains a deeply contentious object in UFO in Damiano's career, out of the way and start there, especially since you both revisited it this week.
• 3:34
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, I think it's safe to say that I really didn't like uh Deep Throat.
• 3:39
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, we've been discussing about the artsy value and the pornographic value of Damiano's work, especially in his later work.
• 3:48
  SPEAKER_00: But I think here it's basically a very sensationalist film.
• 3:52
  SPEAKER_00: It's the first theatrically released and widely uh watched hardcore pornographic film, adds it a historical value, which makes it like everyone uses it.
• 4:03
  SPEAKER_00: It's this cornerstone in pornographic discussions, uh, doesn't really add much to I think its sensational value from today's point of view.
• 4:13
  SPEAKER_00: I think I just felt like I was bored uh while watching it, first of all.
• 4:19
  SPEAKER_00: But then there's the discussion concerning Linda Loveless and what she went through uh during the um production of this film, adds another layer.
• 4:30
  SPEAKER_00: Uh when you go to the letterbox page of this film, you would find a lot of comments saying like people watching this film should be uh are evil people and they should be like punished, whatever.
• 4:43
  SPEAKER_00: Like this is quite a quick summary of what people is talking people are talking about, um, which is something I don't really agree with, but there is still the the historical and traumatic fact that Linda Lawless was allegedly coerced into shooting this film, and she said in an interview that you're watching me getting being raped in this film.
• 5:07
  SPEAKER_00: And so there are those clash clashing forces that con that revolves around this film, which makes it hard to appreciate, but at the same time, thank God, there's not much to appreciate.
• 5:19
  SPEAKER_00: But at the same time, I read Linda Williams' book Hardcore, in which she discusses uh Deep Throat as uh in the chapter of the money shots of how representation of uh pleasure from the more phalocentric uh perspective is paradoxical because it's all about the male pleasure being the actual male pleasure of penetration, cannot convene the visual pleasure.
• 5:46
  SPEAKER_00: So you have to take the penis out and it becomes the phalocentric visual pleasure shot, is different from what it actually represents in our real life.
• 5:57
  SPEAKER_00: She also discusses the the representation or irrepresentation of clitoris in that film and then how it complicates the idea of female uh pleasure because clitoris into discussion and it gives it a different function.
• 6:12
  SPEAKER_00: But I've still felt that the film itself doesn't actively reflect on it.
• 6:17
  SPEAKER_07: It was also one of my first experiences with us like interested in the history of porn to look into this film and w why it was like this such landmark moment and being very sour in the experience, even before knowing any of like the context around this production, just on I guess like a film grammar level.
• 6:32
  SPEAKER_07: Totally, I think it's closer to the Daniano I like, in a sense, which is like more goofy and more playful, almost like a cartoon at times.
• 6:38
  SPEAKER_07: But then I feel like it's also one of his least sexy films.
• 6:42
  SPEAKER_07: Like the montage itself always throws me out in this film, which is like a lot of like quick cuts and all the sequences.
• 6:47
  SPEAKER_07: The conceptual ga conceptual gambit is film is very like simple, I guess, like and that doesn't hold up the film.
• 6:53
  SPEAKER_07: Whereas all the other films have uh perhaps a more high concept premise around them, even it's just like a throwaway to get to the looks.
• 7:00
  SPEAKER_07: It feels like a weird transition, like particularly afterwards, what we'll be talking about, like managers like a year afterwards you're seeing like these very ambitious, like conceptually and formally films, uh, and also like his relationship to sex feels very different in this film than his other films in a way.
• 7:15
  SPEAKER_07: Simultaneously, like this is to some people his legacy, and also feels like an outlier within his own filmography.
• 7:22
  SPEAKER_00: There are some uh formal elements that feel still closer to his uh later films, like the dragging opening sequence, very long car drive.
• 7:31
  SPEAKER_00: We also, in his later films, that arrive to the sex quite late in like compared to the uh length of a film.
• 7:40
  SPEAKER_00: And one thing I read about the conceptual framing of this whole scientific idea of like going to the doctor and being examined, whatever, is also a historical element that is specific to the representation of hardcore sexuality because before that I learned that the only way of screening sex in these like larger contexts were like scientific or like educational purposes.
• 8:06
  SPEAKER_00: So it kind of also plays with that idea.
• 8:09
  SPEAKER_00: I think he still hasn't find ways to channel pleasure or the image of the pleasure because the whole fireworks orgasm feels very outdated to me.
• 8:23
  SPEAKER_08: In a way, it's this film that's very much this monstrous object of film history in many ways.
• 8:30
  SPEAKER_08: You know, even at the time, I think that was something that was playing into it.
• 8:33
  SPEAKER_08: You know, this film that arrived in a very specific moment that was quite widely known to be funded by the mob that had this kind of sordid details around it related to Linda Lovelace.
• 8:45
  SPEAKER_08: I think her allegations of abuse against Chuck Trainer came later, but nonetheless I think the film had that, you know, it was very much as a cultural phenomenon playing with that sort of danger and that sordidness.
• 8:59
  SPEAKER_08: I remember coming away from Deep Throat being like, this is it, like this is the movie that like let lit everything on fire, you know, like very kind of half-assed, loungy, sort of indifferently made in patches and so on.
• 9:14
  SPEAKER_08: And basically this impression lasted for years with me uh about Gerard Damiano.
• 9:20
  SPEAKER_08: At some point did I start to kind of realize that people really do revere and respect this man, someone who was able to use this kind of crazy fame that he got from making Deep Throat to carve out for a few years quite a serious body of films.
• 9:39
  SPEAKER_08: And like all pornographic filmmakers of the era, eventually it ran out and led to a sort of defeated half-life.
• 9:46
  SPEAKER_08: But there was a period where this, like this fame, he was able to leverage it to make to make the stuff he wanted to make.
• 9:52
  SPEAKER_00: Right after Deep Throat, we arrived to the period in which his cinema becomes what we can call as more mature.
• 10:02
  SPEAKER_00: So it's obvious that he already had these ideas, and maybe that's why I kind of uh agree with Alonso when I mean you you said that it's more goofy, like his more goofy side and his cinema.
• 10:17
  SPEAKER_00: So I think maybe it's less in a chronological evolution, but rather two sides of a cinema that is already there, even in Deep Throat.
• 10:26
  SPEAKER_07: Well, he has a film exactly between Deep Throat and Devil Miss Jones, which seems uh to be very much so uh in the Deep Throat pain.
• 10:33
  SPEAKER_07: It's another like Matt Scientist film called Mid Bull, which I think is about like uh penis enlargement uh uh thing going on.
• 10:40
  SPEAKER_07: Seems very intentional when he starts like literally like Jean-Paul Sartre references, I guess, in some sort of conceptual inspiration around Devil Miss Jones uh like no exit.
• 10:49
  SPEAKER_07: And then like you mentioned in the story of uh Joanna, like the Dominique Ori more like more clearly, like BDSM like elementary.
• 10:55
  SPEAKER_07: So I'm intrigued also by that part of like him deciding at some point, like yeah, I'll get into this like uh important highbrow texts and then like make this like dialogue with with pornographic films, uh while also like aesthetically, so it doesn't feel like this, like I guess like more like 90s and 2000s, like quick production.
• 11:15
  SPEAKER_07: Like there's like as we probably like get more into like the textures of these films, like the well like the cinematography of these films, even like like the like the staging and the setups are like on par with like many like European arthouse films of the of the time, like if not better at some points.
• 11:30
  SPEAKER_07: So it's also like this like appreciation of the craft, uh, which in a way I guess is also like more like an industrial context as well of the kind of like artists that were working in at this time in the like the uh the porno cheek era.
• 11:41
  SPEAKER_07: Uh but also I guess like there's some intentionality as well that to me seems very interesting to like this is uh I don't want to say like a high-row aspiration, clearly like some sort of like dialectic that's going on in these films, particularly leading towards Del Miss Jones.
• 11:53
  SPEAKER_08: A common thing that we discuss on this podcast is the way that um the kind of tension between intentionality of filmmakers and just the circumstances that they were working in.
• 12:04
  SPEAKER_08: And I don't want to try to project myself into Gerard Demiano's mind, uh, but it very much does seem to me that someone like him at this period would have just been sort of experimenting, trying different things.
• 12:19
  SPEAKER_08: And so the kind of self-conscious ardiness and seriousness of a film like Devil and Miss Jones, as you said, coming right after a film like Meatball, is basically just like another form of experimentation.
• 12:32
  SPEAKER_08: It's just like, oh, what if I do this?
• 12:35
  SPEAKER_08: And then you do that, and then you see that not only does it become the top, I think it was the tenth highest-grossing film of that year, which is insane.
• 12:44
  SPEAKER_08: Not only does that happen, but also you start to see people speaking about your films in that way.
• 12:49
  SPEAKER_08: And I think if you are a filmmaker who, you know, he he was pretty ashamed of Deep Throat as a piece of filmmaking.
• 12:56
  SPEAKER_08: I mean, he he himself regretted that that was the film that became the most famous one uh from a filmmaking point of view.
• 13:03
  SPEAKER_08: And he was someone who kind of styled himself very much as a filmmaker first, someone who loved Hitchcock and loved Ingmar Bergman and things like that.
• 13:12
  SPEAKER_08: So I think, you know, when you put out a film like that and you see that people are speaking about it in a certain way and are responding to this kind of weird mix of elements, I can imagine that that's something that he kind of just takes the ball and runs with.
• 13:25
  SPEAKER_08: I appreciate that he was mixing it up, you know, that firstly he wasn't just making deep throat cash-ins, which I think is commendable, but also, yeah, for every Devil in Miss Jones or Memories Within Miss Aggie, he was also making uh Let My Puppets Come.
• 14:21
  SPEAKER_00: Like a woman commits suicide and she meets with the devil, I guess.
• 14:28
  SPEAKER_00: Is she I don't know if it's like the representative of the uh other world, but like she learns that uh she's going to hell and she's like, um okay, if I'm going to hell, maybe should there should be a reason for me to like an actual convincing reason for me to go to hell.
• 14:44
  SPEAKER_00: Let me just like have sex for a while.
• 14:46
  SPEAKER_00: And then she goes into whole the whole whole uh like a right of sexual adventures and going deeper and uh uh bolder in her adventures.
• 14:59
  SPEAKER_00: But even that like going bolder, I feel like there's this prevealing quality in how these scenes unfold.
• 15:07
  SPEAKER_00: Like sometimes we she see her just like playing around with herself, not necessarily like very like down moments within the film.
• 15:15
  SPEAKER_00: So it feels like it kind of just like he maybe thought, let's just do something like that without giving much of a thought how the structure will unfold.
• 15:25
  SPEAKER_00: But at the end of the film, you see him inserting himself uh in the prison as this crazy man uh that she meets at the end of her journey, and they're stuck in there forever.
• 15:40
  SPEAKER_00: So they they are very clever and clear decisions of how to put himself as this put himself as in a in a very Hitchcockan way.
• 15:50
  SPEAKER_07: You can really see like how it's he most ways is making the most conceptually with like the structure of this a lot of these like feature-length films, which were kind of like a compilation of like like loops, going back to the the Odyssey, which we'll get to.
• 16:03
  SPEAKER_07: Uh there's almost like built-in uh how he conceptually frames them.
• 16:07
  SPEAKER_07: Like this, it is semi-episodic, but it kind of makes sense with kind of with the way he he plays around these characters' journeys.
• 16:13
  SPEAKER_07: It's always like a journey of self-discovery with the characters through sex, which I find very interesting.
• 16:18
  SPEAKER_07: And then if you draw when you start throwing in like the Catholic and spiritual elements that appeared when from this period on uh onwards, then it becomes really, really interesting, uh, particularly as we're kind of like discussing on the group shed while we've seen the films, uh, the sex negativity in this in this film, so like this contentious relationship he seems to have, at least all his characters or his film universe seems to have with sexual act, which I guess in this film is perhaps the most blatant uh expression of that, particularly with the kind of almost very juvenile and like mean and bad-spirited ending of the film, which I think is also very funny, in like a dark human way, of how he punishes this character for all her ex sexual exploits, which is a Catholic element, then to me is also very representative, I guess.
• 16:58
  SPEAKER_07: Also in films that I mean perhaps dealing literally with like the devil and with this sort of uh but also in that how he views, for example, in memories within Wisagi and the story of Joanna, like the this kind of like a psychosexual element to me, it's also uh very interesting to see for like the him going there and using those that threads to kind of uh articulate uh the sex scenes to me is kind of genius.
• 17:22
  SPEAKER_07: Which is the element that I guess to me was kind of missing from Deep Root as well.
• 17:25
  SPEAKER_07: Like there's like uh very just like thrown together scenes.
• 17:28
  SPEAKER_07: Mind the low effort, I just mind like the low effort not being like as playful.
• 17:31
  SPEAKER_07: And despite this being perhaps more serious and dark, there is a playfulness in how uh he works within the scenes.
• 17:38
  SPEAKER_08: Yeah, like also what what I would just say, um, especially maybe if I compare him a little bit to Roberta Findlay, who was also very sex negative, I think even more so.
• 17:49
  SPEAKER_08: With her, you know, you often had the sense that the film existed, and then there would be this scene of someone sucking a cock and she didn't like that part, and then she would move on to the next scene.
• 18:00
  SPEAKER_08: You know, whereas Damiano, to his great credit, I would say, despite being sex negative, never treats the sex scenes as kind of unworthy of being integrated into the film.
• 18:13
  SPEAKER_08: So I was quite amazed in Devil and Miss Jones how integrated those scenes are and uh deeply into the kind of like flow of the film.
• 18:22
  SPEAKER_08: That they they're not, you know, shot indifferently, they're not kind of rushed through.
• 18:28
  SPEAKER_08: It's on it it's like a true hardcore film in some sense, in that all the elements of the film somehow come together to reinforce like his overall vision, let's say, uh, which which I think is very, very rare and is one of the reasons I think this film it still endures.
• 18:44
  SPEAKER_08: Something else worth noting, also, definitely, on this film is uh Georgina Spelvin, who I think it's like fair to say gives like one of the best, if not the best, performances in a hardcore film ever.
• 18:58
  SPEAKER_08: And I think it's very much connected to this idea that I just mentioned, because what she's so good in this movie, uh both in the scenes that you would expect her to be good in, like the ending, like these kind of like deep philosophical discussions that happen in the film.
• 19:16
  SPEAKER_08: But even when she's speaking dirty, even when she's having sex and saying she's yeah, saying dirty talk, there's something really sad and powerful about the way that she says it.
• 19:28
  SPEAKER_08: It's really like a genuinely amazing performance.
• 19:31
  SPEAKER_08: By the way, if you want to talk about the mistreatment of uh actresses in the history of classic porn, uh look no further than the fact that Georgina Spelvin, who was discovered for this film, uh came to the set to uh cook for the crew.
• 19:48
  SPEAKER_08: Uh the main actress pulled out, so Damiano uh brought her in as the lead, and she was like one of the gave one of the best performances ever.
• 19:58
  SPEAKER_08: Uh, but still, while shooting the film and while having sex with people on camera, she still continued to cook for the crew.
• 20:05
  SPEAKER_00: Um I think the oral elements add a lot to this film as well.
• 20:10
  SPEAKER_08: Oral like A-U-R-A-L.
• 20:12
  SPEAKER_00: Oral, yes.
• 20:16
  SPEAKER_00: Oh my god.
• 20:17
  SPEAKER_00: This is this episode's gonna be full of puns anyway.
• 20:20
  SPEAKER_08: Because you know you have to be very specific when you say the oral elements in this film.
• 20:25
  SPEAKER_00: Like sound elements, sound elements.
• 20:28
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, um it's also tied to her performance because when she's pleading, saying like you know, more pleasure about the pleasure, like asking for pleasure in the early parts of the film, her voice or the way she speaks is quite different than uh at the end, she also pleads for pleasure, but it's not the same tonality.
• 20:52
  SPEAKER_00: So that part she's saying, we can get off.
• 20:55
  SPEAKER_00: Why don't you I I was going to imitate it, but like it's very hard to be careful because people can clip stuff, yeah, yeah.
• 21:06
  SPEAKER_00: So that's yeah, that part is very powerful, I think, how similar expressions can be uh turned into different sentiments, and one in in case in first case pleasure and the other torture.
• 21:20
  SPEAKER_07: Just what you were describing of this element of like the community within like the pleasure and also this like a heavy toll of it.
• 21:26
  SPEAKER_07: And the I was thinking uh of like uh like someone like Fred Halstead, which the element of like brutality and domination and the like negativity of the sexual experiences is also ingrained in some sort of like altruus uh way, which I guess like makes these films also like transcend just like the fact that they were created in the like golden age of porn.
• 21:45
  SPEAKER_07: Not in like a higher level of oh yeah, these films are more like artful, not just in the sense of like how they flow and how they exist kind of provide like a different kind of experiences, which I guess looking back, we will always say that about some of these films, it's kind of weird to consider in how the films flow and the vibes of the films, and just like figure like thinking that there were like ac people like actively jerking out on theater to these films.
• 22:04
  SPEAKER_08: Which is off which is often crazy to imagine with some of these movies.
• 22:08
  SPEAKER_07: Yeah, like the atmosphere of the films is is very like oppressive, particularly in this period.
• 22:18
  SPEAKER_07: He f he finds like a way of making it like pleasurable, I guess, but also like where the there's almost like this questioning element.
• 22:25
  SPEAKER_07: I wouldn't say like perhaps that's just like the Catholic morality of like there's like this like a shadiness towards like the way he constructs it around sex scenes, I guess like it's very tangible.
• 22:40
  SPEAKER_05: We'll get off together I've done everything that I've been taught doesn't that count for anything?
• 22:47
  SPEAKER_08: I'm sure you've pleased the master but nothing can change every three films that I would say are of a piece that I guess we will talk about.
• 23:07
  SPEAKER_08: One is Devil and Miss Jones, the other one is Memories Within Miss Aggie, and the third one is Story of Joanna which are kind of I would say this nexus of feel bad Arty porn that Gerard Damiano made in this period not necessarily in quick succession and as I said sometimes with very goofy films around them.
• 23:31
  SPEAKER_08: But I would say yeah the three of them are these very dour, grim pornographic films highbrow in their pretensions, which I don't say in a negative way, but full of these kind of gestures towards the highbrow uh higherbrow source material, let's say as Alonso said, pushing the concept of like theatrical pornography to its limit often with particularly in memories with within Miss Aggie very long very long sequences that are not sexy at all very kind of existential in introspective maybe Oku since is your favorite you can you can tee up the film a little bit for us.
• 24:16
  SPEAKER_00: I what I like about this film, I mean Alonso probably you think it's very way too artsy for your taste but that's what that's why I like it.
• 24:25
  SPEAKER_00: It's just the the first level in uh why I like it is the temporality because usually in porn the time doesn't exist like the sex acts often unfold in a succession that doesn't necessarily um connote a narrative progression.
• 24:44
  SPEAKER_00: We don't know how how much time passed within a given uh set of events uh even I think in um Deep Throat or Devil and Miss Jones we don't know how these uh sexual acts and are related to one another but in uh memories within Miss Aggie this is more like a uh speculative time it's a memory it's supposed to be past but it turns out they're not past memories so this complex complexity of time is something I really like which also uh is a similar thing that I can I find in French auteur cinema like Alain René or Marguerite Duras uh to name a few which kind of echoes each other I don't know if they're intentional uh echoes because I think the film uh overtly uh dialogues with psycho at the in an in in in its ultimate moments so I don't know if it's these are the right references but what the film spoke me the most is these connections with the the duration like a very Bergsonian the idea of duration and time.
• 26:01
  SPEAKER_00: So I really like those elements and how uh speculative time joins the fantasy because she also fantasizes about the past that she probably didn't have it's all imaginary memories but also fantasies and how fantasy and memory uh intertwine within the film is very interesting and it's very uncanny.
• 26:25
  SPEAKER_00: It's not just like I I think it creates this very uncanny space within the film because you don't know if they're true or fantasies.
• 26:34
  SPEAKER_00: You can't just like as you said enjoy these fantasies because you don't know where they come from.
• 26:39
  SPEAKER_00: It's just very psychologically uh disconcerting.
• 26:44
  SPEAKER_00: It evolves in uh even more and more into to that point.
• 26:48
  SPEAKER_00: So I don't I can't see how someone can enjoy and take pleasure in a very primitive way while watching this film.
• 26:55
  SPEAKER_07: Uh despite liking uh Marguerite Duras I don't really want her tone in my porn if that makes sense.
• 27:02
  SPEAKER_07: No I guess like to me that the the thing with this one and the story of Joanna that uh it's just like a personal preference that doesn't have to do actually with the uh more primal element of porn it's an aesthetic I sorry it's an aesthetic concern uh for example Miss Jones it's still kind of uh uh in Liazon aesthetically and conceptually with these films but I guess there's like uh in the figure of Georgina Spelbin like the sense of origins uh that he provides it's almost like uh feral in a sense that kind of gives the the film this trust that I feel that in this film and sorry Joanna they're perhaps more like um articulate they're more like uh a little bit formally um I wouldn't say the touch but there's just like the construction of the of the artifice of filmmaking itself here um is too ornate perhaps to my liking just uh I I I I I agree with the story of Joanna it's definitely very cold and distant film and it's filmmaking but I think uh the fact that it this film takes place in a like this very enclosed space creates this more uh uncanny feeling which is rather different than distance because in in story of Joanna it's very cold it's just very like SM coldness like everything is planned yeah yeah the site I guess it's also like a thing like psychoanalysis uh and within film is kind of something that to me always paraphrases less interesting uh conversations around like I think the film threats like its psychoanalytical elements within the narrative structure a little bit too serious uh to my liking uh because also I guess that permeates the at least the two-thirds of the of the film also like the sex scenes are kind of like in this like hazy like atmosphere which again I don't mind per se just it doesn't have this centralized figure that kind of brings me towards uh like you're gonna spell in the previous film but I do have to say like the last Aggie uh which I think she's uh Darby Low it reigns that one like that sequence itself it does kind of takes me back to like sense of urgency in the sex itself at this kind of uh conflicted and almost uh kind of uh primal search for like release.
• 29:07
  SPEAKER_00: But I guess in the first like iteration of Aggie I think she also creates a self that is completely imaginary.
• 29:15
  SPEAKER_00: Sh like the Aggie in the first place is also detached from that urgency because she also wants to be detached from that urgency.
• 29:23
  SPEAKER_00: We progressively get closer to the real Aggie and her uh etatespre.
• 29:30
  SPEAKER_00: So it makes sense I think that progression.
• 29:33
  SPEAKER_00: I'm I'm gonna defend this film.
• 29:37
  SPEAKER_08: Yeah I think it's also this kind of moment the these two films in particular this moment where you feel uh Demiano kind of wanting to break free of the cage of pornography a little bit and I wonder if that also is bleeding through to why Alonso is instinctively alarmed.
• 29:55
  SPEAKER_08: Because if if they do feel like you know movies that could exist without being hardcore films and maybe want to be that in some way also whereas I think in Devil and Miss Jones it's very much part of the film.
• 30:09
  SPEAKER_08: Like the the film doesn't work without that and it's it's interesting like uh I know Urku you you mentioned uh Alain René and that that whole like idea of conceiving of a film that way in an American context I think is very strange and kind of even just some of these images I think more in story of Joanna but uh there was something that we mentioned in our very first episode about uh uh Valerian Borovchyk and uh the beast and the and those films he made in the 70s is that strangely you can kind of create a sort of parallel lineage between films in the 1970s between Marguerite Duras and Jacques Ruvet and Borovchyk and now Damiano just uh in this kind of history of renting elaborate sets and just shooting there in long takes and there's there's a lot of that in story of Joanna there's this kind of like strange power to these images that I think goes beyond necessarily what were the intentions of the film you know just like these these wide open rooms m moving cameras through the space this like use of a sort of dreamlike logic to the narrative it's it's weird to see that wash up on the shores of US pornography you know and he's there's a very lazy line he's often compared to Ingmar Bergman which I personally don't see at all.
• 31:44
  SPEAKER_07: A much better filmmaker.
• 31:45
  SPEAKER_08: Much more consistent also but he's I mean he's not really Bergman-esque in the sense that he's like this theatrical director he's more he's I know his biggest like stated biggest inspiration was always Hitchcock and that doesn't necessarily make sense to me in the types of films that he was making but in the in the kind of conception that every film is a sort of experiment is a kind of formal adventure that you that you embark upon.
• 32:12
  SPEAKER_08: And in these two films he's he's definitely doing that and it just feels like from what I've seen where I feel that he's almost like imagining a life without hardcore pornography because the films that come after this it goes back to being very much integrated into the plot you know and then but in in this moment there's almost like this brief gasp where you you can see maybe he's trying to become if not Marguerite Duras then at least uh you know someone who's maybe a bit more respectable.
• 32:40
  SPEAKER_07: That's something a very interesting also uh point in his career now uh I think I was I was the only one that watched Legacy of Satan which in a way despite not being a hardcore film feels more like a hardcore film than a memory smizagi has like the vibes of a porn film a little bit more.
• 32:54
  SPEAKER_07: But it was a it was a hardcore film no at some point it was re-rewritten as some sort of like just like he he attempted to be like a psychological horror film but the end result is almost like post-hammer horror like satanic film more in the Grindhouse element like as aesthetic despite the film being looking very cheap.
• 33:10
  SPEAKER_07: It has this like narrative attempt of creating like this like complex psychological character of this like woman who is kind of told that she will be like the high priestess who's like a satanic cult and then like all all her like antics around that element and her breakdown and finally kind of like spiraling there's always like this kind of arc of like spiraling into this moment of like starting at this like repression within like the society and then spiraling into this like uh be it like the like hardcore elements or like the sexual liberation of the other films uh or in this case more like this like just like the allure of like the Satanism and this like transcendental element.
• 33:45
  SPEAKER_07: Like the first sequence is incredible just it's like blasting like synced sounds and has this incredible like black mass uh sequence shot almost like in a thing uh constant pan that's going on afterwards the film kind of loses theme a little bit and has also a very like moralistic uh catholic ending which again goes back into what we're alluding to like this spirituality and this kind of reaction of loss despite engaging with loss being kind of like a constant thing was I kind of mentioned in that this film I think is interesting to see within this like wider spiritual realm of Damiano films I I want to quickly go back to the story of Joanna because I feel like it really reaches to a point in his body of work of artistry that is quite unmatched in in the previous films.
• 35:12
  SPEAKER_00: I feel like the the dance scenes the mirrors uh I I think they're they can find rather cheaper cheap solutions to create those atmospheres but it really feels very crafty and professional and there are some scenes that just like I keep thinking about impressive scenes like the dance the naked dance uh sequence is quite impressive the scene with the mirrors and also the close ups the close up shots of the penis on her on her face it becomes this this animalistic weird creature if if it's like a it as if it has its own being not like you like not someone's organ but as a creature on its own sake.
• 35:58
  SPEAKER_08: Also you know you you mentioned that uh he's very much a heterosexual filmmaker which is true of I think all of these films but there is a moment in story of Joanna with the the butler gives Jamie Gillis a blowjob uh and it's quite short but I know that that was kind of Damiano's uh his rationale for that was basically like well you know why not broaden the audience for this thing like why why not put a scene for them uh and I know a lot a lot of distributors cut that scene out but it's like a it's a very interesting kind of rupture in this um this like very heterosexual universe of Damiano you know and shows I think his both his generosity and his also big business acumen to to imagine that putting a scene like that would somehow you know invite more people to the film.
• 36:49
  SPEAKER_08: I was a little bit let down by this film but I think it's also it's a combination of expectations and uh watching too much pornography honestly I think that is it because this was the film that you know as a film as a kind of mythic object it was the film that kind of taught me that there was something more interesting about Damiano as I mentioned you know people wearing the shirts and seeing the poster which is amazing you know like it suggested like a kind of uh seriousness let's say of a hardcore film that when I finally watched it I was like yeah I see that but you know maybe I've just been watching too many pornos this week or I don't know what it is but there's a little it's a little bit like programmatic in that way you know this is this is the one where I feel like maybe a little bit like Alonzo with Miss Aggie I feel like okay dude I get it like you know you you you you wanted to make like the serious porn film so you chose this subject and and you know it's a little bit overly determined for me but I'm very much opening open to seeing it again you know in the future and realizing how stupid I was what I will say is that it has this amazing two leads Jamie Gillis the great and very problematic Jamie Gillis and Terry Hall who I don't know uh and she's amazing like she has this very very weird screen presence.
• 38:21
  SPEAKER_00: She reminded me of Isabella Jani.
• 38:23
  SPEAKER_08: Totally she has a very very strange screen presence that I like a sort of weird innocence and kind of like absent mindedness that fits this naive naivete totally and when put up against Jamie Gillis who is like he's very suave here but I mean I'm never able to unsee Jamie Gillis's sinister side for biographical reasons.
• 38:45
  SPEAKER_08: So seeing him here opposite her is like I don't know there's a kind of extra cinematic layer to this film that is fascinating to me.
• 38:53
  SPEAKER_08: Gerard Damiano brings you the story of Joanna the most erotic motion picture you will ever see I want you to do love I don't know how to teach me before we get to the film that we teased right at the opening I feel like we that was just for the purpose of a joke so I don't want to build the Odyssey up too much.
• 39:36
  SPEAKER_07: That was the one that brought me back oh no all this Frenchness this film looks like like with the story of Jana this like looks like like Visconti I'm done and then I hear like some like I I see some like like 70s ugly like uh carpets and I start hearing like the the like the guitar sounds like oh yeah we're back.
• 39:52
  SPEAKER_07: The structure is like very unrelated I guess I I don't really see like the uh conceptual hook between the stories uh perhaps that much I don't know if you you particularly I think oiku might have like I feel like oiku might have a theory around like how how they're related but particularly like the first like the the first story where this like uh this couple that uh they have like trouble between like the there's sex like particularly like the the woman doesn't feel like fulfilled by um her partner they the sort of relationship they have and then it's like just like pure like visual exploration has in a way it reminded me of my I think my favorite porno film of all time which is uh Bacanel by the Americas which famously where like a gay man directing straight porn which they're always kind of like this like this isn't like the the most straight film with one ambition is kind of very famous being like this campy uh film but like it has this same element of like it's pure like almost carnivalesque uh sense of like play and exploration with all the lightning all the costumes like every frame I guess he I feel like his like uh formal the formal uh prowess he shows in his previous films geared towards more like artful uh material perhaps or ambitions it has this that same level of like formal confidence to me but in here the like in particular in the the first story like second story is also uh very interesting and musically also I think it's like perhaps his some of his best the best musical intersections like his films have in here they feel geared towards perhaps more like primal element that I'm looking for like essentially more like plotless than the other films uh in a way and you just see like this like uh kernel descents and explorations and it feels like less cohesive I guess when that less cohesiveness it feels as you were alluding to Chris like every film like that sense of exploration like let's try this try this out let's try this out it's like this uh experimental impulse uh almost like restrained within like a 75 minute film and that's the thing like really like uh gets me about this film like it feels kind of like him every scene he's going for something new and sometimes it doesn't stick but to me that impulse and getting to that impulse to like the sequence themselves is like pretty pretty endearing.
• 42:02
  SPEAKER_07: And I and I guess the particular with the first sequence going back to like the like non-straight element but just the fact you have like this like double uh like crossplay in in at at at play um which is one of like like the most memorable sequences of of the film to me which you have like um like someone with like a a fake mustache like it's starts having like starting to to engage uh sexually with so uh someone like dressed as a woman but then is revealed to have like a penis and then that element kind of of subversion again like to me feels very uh I I don't know where a little bit I guess you were kind of alluding to like the butler scene in uh story of Joanna but like in here I'm like oh oh I'll Geraldamiano this turns me on trans rights Gerardamiano.
• 42:48
  SPEAKER_00: I mean to me I think if you like there's no ranking of the episodes but I think I really like the third one.
• 42:54
  SPEAKER_00: I feel like the third one felt like the ultimate freelance experience within unlike being uh flooded with emails or like solicitations of coming everywhere while you're not answering and while you're being exploited to to the to your bone.
• 43:11
  SPEAKER_00: So it felt like the whole framing and more psychosexual elements very oppressive.
• 43:17
  SPEAKER_00: I think it worked the most for me the third part and then the first part the more like a dreamy or orgy vibes of the first and the second the least I guess because it was more like a also it had this episodic not episodic but like a cyclical form of like therapist woman talking to her and then reminiscing of their sexual problems or like relationship problems.
• 43:44
  SPEAKER_00: So in in that sense it felt a bit simple but the third one was very evocative and also very feet feel bad porn again.
• 43:54
  SPEAKER_07: Yeah I was gonna say in a way this film contains I guess everything like it's like a microcosm of his old career Like you got like the more like loungy, breezy, like orgasmic like journey, like fun fantastical journey.
• 44:06
  SPEAKER_07: Then you have like this more like psychological aspiration of like repressed female desire, and then you have like that more like feel, but almost I wouldn't say that there's like a documentary like impulse there, but just like the fact that, oh yeah, we I showed the the the day in the life of this like uh girl going through this like hassles in this system.
• 44:23
  SPEAKER_07: Uh I don't know, there's something in there to me was also you know, like almost like a meta way.
• 44:27
  SPEAKER_07: I thought of I thought of like uh Silica Shell and one of those later films, which is kind of kind of like a compilation of everything we've seen so far.
• 44:34
  SPEAKER_07: It's like, oh yeah, I recognize this from this and this from there.
• 44:36
  SPEAKER_07: I know perhaps it's just like the cumulative effect of seeing this film as one of the last ones after going through his films has this like effect.
• 44:43
  SPEAKER_08: No, totally, and it's also just as a project, it's a very strange direction for him to take.
• 44:48
  SPEAKER_08: I mean, it's called Odyssey, the ultimate trip.
• 44:52
  SPEAKER_08: So clearly it's kind of you know geared towards like uh hippies and people taking LSD and going to the cinema, but it's like it's a pretty bad trip.
• 45:02
  SPEAKER_08: I mean, it's it's it's pretty miserable.
• 45:04
  SPEAKER_08: Um, and there are these kind of like funky elements, uh, like you said, the music and these fabrics and people wearing these transparent masks and these big uh cushions, people getting blowjobs on strange objects.
• 45:18
  SPEAKER_08: Uh, but I I mean I I don't know, the idea of taking LSD and going to see this movie seems pretty depressing to me.
• 45:26
  SPEAKER_08: I feel like you would easily spiral out listening to some of these, you know, really bitter conversations about the difficulties of marriage and things like that.
• 45:35
  SPEAKER_08: I mean, it's it's strange.
• 45:38
  SPEAKER_08: Um, and really the only kind of through line is the way that it's all shot.
• 45:43
  SPEAKER_08: You know, I think this is I was clicking through the film just to remind myself of some of the basic plot points before we started recording, and I was just amazed by what a kind of handsome piece of you know photography it is.
• 45:56
  SPEAKER_08: I mean, he he said a lot that you know he he doesn't agree with the Kama Sutra that there are hundreds of ways to have sex.
• 46:03
  SPEAKER_08: That but basically for Damiano there was just like a few and there was also just a few ways to shoot it.
• 46:10
  SPEAKER_08: Um but here he finds like creative ways to do almost everything in this movie.
• 46:15
  SPEAKER_08: It's like a real kind of calling, you know, even if the film doesn't necessarily make sense as a kind of coherent object, it's like this this calling card that I think I would show to people if I wanted them to get a taste of what he was all about.
• 47:06
  SPEAKER_08: As far as I understand it, Let My Puppets Come was was basically it was made in the version that we saw, uh, which is I think 75 minutes or something like that.
• 47:19
  SPEAKER_08: Um and when it was released, of course, I mean so obviously nobody wanted to see it because it's like the stupidest idea for you know to like release a hardcore film that has no hardcore sex, just puppets, is like I I don't know what commercially they were thinking with that.
• 47:39
  SPEAKER_08: Uh, but of course it bombed heavily, and the distributor, as far as I understand it, because I went up to uh after the screening in Bologna, I went up to speak to um the Demiano kids who were presenting the film, and they told me that it was very quickly pulled from theaters, and the distributor uh cut it heavily uh and then showed it before other porn films, like scenes of it before other porn films, which is also very funny to imagine, honestly.
• 48:08
  SPEAKER_08: Um and as I understand it, it was then shown in either a similar way or I think a slightly longer version, a cut version, uh before the Odyssey.
• 48:22
  SPEAKER_08: So when you would go and see the Odyssey, there was this kind of short film version of Let My Puppets Come that played just before.
• 48:29
  SPEAKER_00: In the last segment, we also have some glimpse of how porn in the industry works and how like I think it it's kind of join th those parts maybe join or like echo each other because it's also uh Let My Let My Puppets Come is also about the adult film industry and it's a very cheeky way to talk about it.
• 48:50
  SPEAKER_08: I mean you can probably guess by the title, but it's puppet puppet pornography.
• 48:55
  SPEAKER_08: It has musical numbers.
• 48:57
  SPEAKER_08: It's a very it's very weird when you know more of Damiano's films because you kind of like wonder where this where this came from.
• 49:05
  SPEAKER_08: Uh because as like a piece of comedy, I think it's very funny but very juvenile.
• 49:11
  SPEAKER_08: Like I keep saying kept saying that like the humor is basically Team America level.
• 49:16
  SPEAKER_08: You see, yeah, puppet blowjobs, puppet cum shots, puppet bestiality, like it's it's all there.
• 49:24
  SPEAKER_08: It's marketed as a pornographic film, although I'm not really sure that it counts if you like don't see any humans doing any of those activities, but I guess that's just splitting hairs.
• 49:34
  SPEAKER_08: In a loose way, it's about the way that pornography can be could be funded at this time through uh organized crime, which is something that Mr.
• 49:43
  SPEAKER_08: Gerard Demiano knew quite well himself, uh, since uh Deep Throw was produced and distributed by the mafia, and actually they were the people who kept all of the profits and left Demiano without without any uh for himself.
• 49:58
  SPEAKER_08: So that's the kind of backdrop, but basically the film is just this kind of series of very goofy porn-related puppet jokes and gags.
• 50:08
  SPEAKER_08: What did you make of this?
• 50:09
  SPEAKER_00: I kept thinking about how the references, it's all popular culture.
• 50:13
  SPEAKER_00: So it's just like these two concepts of like mainstream culture and porn culture, you cannot like separate them, even how no matter how you try.
• 50:23
  SPEAKER_00: So maybe this is a very tangential analysis of the film, but I I think it also uh speaks of that too.
• 50:29
  SPEAKER_00: Because there are a lot of references, like there's the character called Roberto Vassalini.
• 50:36
  SPEAKER_00: And uh like there are references to a star is born, all the the Oscars and entertainment culture.
• 50:44
  SPEAKER_00: So yeah, I mean you cannot make porn without them because uh initially all the texts, all the tropes are referenced to something that co pre-existed.
• 50:58
  SPEAKER_00: To me, it was too much, I think.
• 51:00
  SPEAKER_00: Too much gags.
• 51:02
  SPEAKER_08: This is another example, I think, with with the story of Joanna and uh Miss Aggie, where you you feel Demiano sort of bristling at the limits of what pornography could be.
• 51:13
  SPEAKER_08: Um, and this like commercially suicidal decision to make and release this film, I think speaks to that because you know it's him in a way celebrating what he does and what he's good at, but also trying to imagine that there could be an audience for his films that is not, you know, 60% people who just want to jerk off.
• 51:34
  SPEAKER_08: You know, he wants to imagine that there's this audience of people who go for the art and for the entertainment.
• 51:40
  SPEAKER_08: And I think that was a miscalculation, you know, because these films they do exist in this grey area where they can be arty and they can experiment, but at the end of the day, like they do have to deliver the goods on some level.
• 51:53
  SPEAKER_08: Uh and this film, in a way, is a perfect film to be revived now because it has this very flippant and ironic sense of humor, and it's very funny and whatever.
• 52:04
  SPEAKER_08: But at that time, I think for Damiano it it kind of worked as this kind of attempt to expand the audience that clearly just didn't work, you know.
• 52:12
  SPEAKER_08: At the end of the day, you know, this was also the tail end of the porno chic era, is this moment where you started to realize like, okay, normal people are not continuing to come and see these films, they've sort of lost interest at this point, uh, and you can only push the limits of the film so far.
• 52:30
  SPEAKER_01: Gentlemen, I may look like an old lady on the outside.
• 52:34
  SPEAKER_01: But inside I'm a movement.
• 53:14
  SPEAKER_08: I mean, after this he did continue to make major films for a little while, uh, notably Skinflex, also a film about the filmmaking process, about the process of making pornography, which came out a couple of years after that, also films like People or Richer and For Poor, which also starred Georgina Spelvin, the aforementioned Sci-Fi film, and a few other films.
• 53:37
  SPEAKER_08: And I think like his last sort of widely accepted major work, let's say, is uh Throat, 12 years after, which I did see.
• 53:47
  SPEAKER_08: But I think I feel like almost it's a bit futile for me to talk about it because it it almost needs to be put, I think, in a context of that 80s, that later period of Damiano.
• 53:58
  SPEAKER_08: To be clear, Deep Throat already had a sequel.
• 54:01
  SPEAKER_08: There is already a Deep Throat 2 starring Linda Lovelace, which is actually I don't think is a hardcore pornographic film, as far as I understand.
• 54:08
  SPEAKER_08: So, and this one is even on the poster it says a reflection, not a sequel, and uh boy is it not a sequel, I mean it has nothing to do with Deep Throat.
• 54:18
  SPEAKER_08: I saw that someone on Letterbox described it as uh Damiano's Altman film, and it does have that sort of does have that sort of feeling because it's about two couples, one who have this like sexually un unsatisfying marriage and the others who are swingers, and it's this kind of like set inside the city, free-flowing between their stories, like yeah, very Altman-esque.
• 54:40
  SPEAKER_08: But it also feels, I mean, for me, just kind of stepping out of the 1970s just for this one film, it was made in 1984, was a little weird, you know.
• 54:49
  SPEAKER_08: I felt like I had violated some some sacred oath or something, you know, because um because it's just weird seeing that in a different era, it's clearly a different moment, like the the fashions are very different, but also the kind of vibe is very different, you know.
• 55:04
  SPEAKER_08: The the sleas, the music, the trippiness has kind of passed, and now you're in this more sort of sanitized era.
• 55:13
  SPEAKER_08: Yeah, it's more yuppies than hippies.
• 55:15
  SPEAKER_08: And and and the opening scene, you know, you see one of the main characters pick up a 19-year-old prostitute and have sex with her.
• 55:23
  SPEAKER_08: You know, it's more transactional than the 70s, you know, than this kind of like experimental, open-ended uh whatever.
• 55:31
  SPEAKER_08: So I think uh maybe a good place to end on that is just that it's you know, it suggests this second half of Damiano's career that we haven't um unfortunately dug into yet.
• 55:44
  SPEAKER_08: As I mentioned at the start, Gerard Damiano is probably the most famous hardcore director ever, if if there is such a thing.
• 55:51
  SPEAKER_08: So he's a bit of a weird candidate to think about uh from the point of view of you know a podcast that is styled as kind of outside a marginal podcast.
• 56:01
  SPEAKER_08: But nonetheless, digging into this, I I saw that he really, no despite Deep Throat is still a very marginal figure, these films are not available.
• 56:10
  SPEAKER_08: Uh we were able to see the ones that we saw mostly uh through the generosity of uh the Damiano Estate, who shared some uh restored links with us.
• 56:22
  SPEAKER_08: Uh and it maybe for some lucky viewers in the future, those films uh are coming to cinemas around the world.
• 56:30
  SPEAKER_08: But also a lot of these films, you know, you can see them on X-Hamster, uh Upon, places like that, Daily Motion, uh Russian websites.
• 56:41
  SPEAKER_08: And if you look also, you know, even I was quite surprised that even um The Devil in Miss Jones, which I think is a kind of justifiable classic, still only has 2,000 logs on Letterboxd.
• 56:54
  SPEAKER_08: You know, and films like The Odyssey and Story of Joanna, they don't have more than 300 to 500 logs.
• 57:01
  SPEAKER_08: So there is something to a figure like this who has such a high degree of exposure as a historical figure, but as an artist, these films are not well known at all.
• 57:12
  SPEAKER_07: Also, I think like his legacy kind of like through Cinephilia and some oh, traditional Cenophilia in some way, and it's perhaps only starting to be the double Miss Jones sequences, uh sequels, uh sorry, like uh the part three and part four, which were done like Rear with Arc, which is also like very interesting, like for an filmmaker.
• 57:27
  SPEAKER_07: And I was thinking also of like there's like a role-playing game specifically inspired on the uh satisfires of Alpha Blue.
• 57:33
  SPEAKER_07: You can see like that that uh genealogy in a way that perhaps doesn't always cross cinophilia, but I think it's always too interesting to see those intersections.
• 57:39
  SPEAKER_03: Webster defines time as a measure of duration, whether past, present, or future, an age or period during which anything occurred.
• 57:51
  SPEAKER_03: It has taken 2,000 years of civilization, the President's Commission on Pornography, and ten or twelve rulings by the Supreme Court of the United States to allow you, as a consenting adult, to view this motion picture.
• 58:07
  SPEAKER_08: For our traditional uh wrap-up, we will talk about some of the films that we've seen, but in our interregnum we did receive two letters, which is nice, and I hope encourages some of you other degenerates listening to to send us something no matter what it is.
• 58:24
  SPEAKER_08: The first one, it's not so much a letter, but it's from Katarina Dokalovic, who some of us may know, uh, was in Locano Critics Academy a few years ago.
• 58:35
  SPEAKER_08: On September 4th, which I think is the day after this podcast will come out, the Roxy cinema in New York will show Ms.
• 58:44
  SPEAKER_08: Doris Wishman's Dildo Heaven and Katarina, having stumbled upon our episode on the great Doris Wishman, uh, thought that we could share that with our fans.
• 58:56
  SPEAKER_08: So if any of you are in New York, uh Dildo Heaven, September 4th in New York City at the Roxy Cinema, go and see it.
• 59:05
  SPEAKER_08: Um it's part it's part of uh Muscle Fest, which is a four-night showcase of transgressive queer cinema featuring some other very interesting titles, which yes, I invite you to go and see.
• 59:17
  SPEAKER_00: So maybe I can read the second one because I also have a question to Greg.
• 59:21
  SPEAKER_00: Um Greg wrote us, Hi all, just wanted to reach out and let you know that I'm such a fan of the podcast.
• 59:28
  SPEAKER_00: I only discovered it recently, so I'm not completely caught up.
• 59:31
  SPEAKER_00: This past year I had begun watching several pink films and Roman Porno, leading the way into a Nobor Rutanaka deep dive.
• 59:38
  SPEAKER_00: By chance, while on vacation in Paris over the summer, I managed to make it to the cinematic for the Nikatsu Roman Porno expo and caught the screening of Watcher in the Attic.
• 59:48
  SPEAKER_00: I was floored.
• 59:49
  SPEAKER_00: Yes! So I'm curious, what did you think of my presentation?
• 59:53
  SPEAKER_00: Then he continues.
• 59:55
  SPEAKER_00: Just afterwards, looking for a podcast on the subject, I came across episode 14 of Outskirts, and now I'm hooked.
• 1:00:01
  SPEAKER_00: But I have enjoyed everything I've listened to so far.
• 1:00:04
  SPEAKER_00: I particularly like the episode on Linobroca, a director who was a new discovery for me this year as well.
• 1:00:10
  SPEAKER_00: I'm certain it is in the works, but I'd love an episode on Militant Central American cinema.
• 1:00:15
  SPEAKER_00: You mentioned Canola.
• 1:00:16
  SPEAKER_08: Speaking to the right crowd here, my god.
• 1:00:18
  SPEAKER_00: Which I loved, but I'd never heard of Paul Leduc and would love to learn more.
• 1:00:24
  SPEAKER_00: Already trying to track down some of the titles you mentioned, and while it is not Central American, there was a favorite film of mine, this passitude from Argentina, with a lot of interesting history around it, Los Traidores by Raimundo Laser.
• 1:00:37
  SPEAKER_00: Anyway, you guys are great, and I just wanted to thank you for putting together such wonderful content.
• 1:00:41
  SPEAKER_00: Can made Warder new season.
• 1:00:43
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you, Greg.
• 1:00:44
  SPEAKER_07: If there was like an algorithmically created listener of this podcast, I think it's Greg.
• 1:00:49
  SPEAKER_07: Someone that's like into pink films, Lina Boroka, like Paul, Raimondo Glazer, like I'm glad you exist.
• 1:00:54
  SPEAKER_08: If the people are clamoring for it, we will do it.
• 1:00:56
  SPEAKER_07: Yeah, people always are clamoring for Metan Central American film.
• 1:01:00
  SPEAKER_07: I know that.
• 1:01:01
  SPEAKER_08: Okay.
• 1:01:02
  SPEAKER_08: I think that's the two letters we have.
• 1:01:04
  SPEAKER_08: What have you guys been watching?
• 1:01:05
  SPEAKER_00: I wrote about uh the retrospective blacklist program in Locarno.
• 1:01:10
  SPEAKER_00: Um I discovered this film called uh The Amazing Mr.
• 1:01:14
  SPEAKER_00: X.
• 1:01:15
  SPEAKER_00: And there was this actor called Tur Turhambey.
• 1:01:19
  SPEAKER_00: I or I had already heard about him, but I never had watched a film starring him.
• 1:01:25
  SPEAKER_00: So it was my first encounter on screen with Turhambe because he was Turkish but Austrian born.
• 1:01:33
  SPEAKER_00: And obviously I was curious and about him, about his films, and I really liked uh The Amazing Mr.
• 1:01:41
  SPEAKER_00: X, which led me to discover that Mark Rappaport made a like short film slash video essay about uh Turhambe called The Standal Syndrome or My Uh Dinner with Turhambe.
• 1:01:53
  SPEAKER_00: And it was a very, very interesting and lovely film.
• 1:01:57
  SPEAKER_00: And I also wrote to him that uh some of his arguments or some of his hypotheses are not true because there are still some people who appreciate these uh now unknown film stars of the golden age, because the main argument of the film is that uh there are stars, but there are some moments in history of cinema and golden age of Hollywood that the some faces uh are forgotten, but they still, while what while we watch them, create this uh interesting, immense pleasure when we see them.
• 1:02:28
  SPEAKER_00: And he links to this experience, the Standal syndrome of seeing this uh amazing beauty, and that's what something he experienced when he saw Turhambe on screen and comments and uh talks about this encounter in various films in different films, uh, while also referring to other rather unknown stars of that uh uh period and the classical cinema.
• 1:02:56
  SPEAKER_00: So it's like a classical uh so it's like a love letter to the classical cinemas, unknown faces that still manage to channel pleasure, uh desire, and passion, and which is something I personally relate to on a very uh uh personal level because sometimes I I mean I was watching a lot of films in Locarno and retrospectives, and I would go to people and say, Oh my god, this person was so handsome, it was so beautiful, or whatever.
• 1:03:26
  SPEAKER_00: It's a very primal um reaction, but I still like interact with films on that level beyond the critical frames, and I think it's a very healthy way of engaging with cinema.
• 1:03:39
  SPEAKER_00: So I feel like I found a soul uh sister in this film to see that like even like some someone like Mark Rappaport also has these uh emotions, sensations.
• 1:03:51
  SPEAKER_00: So I felt like I'm not alone, and I guess if there's any people listening to and relate to Mike's like fangirling moments, I mean you're not alone.
• 1:04:03
  SPEAKER_00: So yeah, that was one of the things I watched lately.
• 1:04:07
  SPEAKER_07: I was watching more porn, different kinds of porn, uh, a couple of weeks ago.
• 1:04:12
  SPEAKER_07: Uh there's this uh kind of like a fancy, well, it's an actual magazine, but it has kind of the vibes of like a fancy very DIY, very punk, called uh Hunk Adult Magazine in at least not only the UK.
• 1:04:24
  SPEAKER_07: Uh yeah, incredible name.
• 1:04:25
  SPEAKER_07: And they have like a like a cinema program in Strand called Greasy Cinema, which is another incredible name.
• 1:04:32
  SPEAKER_07: And they did like a release event uh at the nickel cinema in London, um, which was called like uh Night at the Peep Show.
• 1:04:39
  SPEAKER_07: They would show like uh eight millimeter loops uh digitalized and just in succession for like 90 minutes, and it was also like a great experience in a way.
• 1:04:51
  SPEAKER_07: And they show very it's very it's kind of like hit or miss, very interesting stuff, just being of the period and the like the uh like archival and restoration work of like digitalizing some of these on-seen films, I think it's uh very interesting.
• 1:05:03
  SPEAKER_07: Particularly highlights to me were like uh vampire orgy and like Periods of Pauline uh from the ones I saw.
• 1:05:09
  SPEAKER_07: Uh very self-explanatory, most of them.
• 1:05:11
  SPEAKER_07: You got titles like uh Prison Anima, Peace Orgy.
• 1:05:14
  SPEAKER_07: Uh you you know what the kind of thing you're go you're going into when you go to the screens.
• 1:05:17
  SPEAKER_07: Uh they also collaborate with a lot with like experimental musicians, uh so that's interesting.
• 1:05:22
  SPEAKER_07: And I guess and and simultaneously they they they run like a print touch porn market.
• 1:05:27
  SPEAKER_07: You can find the interesting stuff when that happens.
• 1:05:30
  SPEAKER_07: Yeah, more porn is my recommendation.
• 1:05:32
  SPEAKER_08: No, clearly we're built differently.
• 1:05:33
  SPEAKER_08: What have you been watching to cleanse your palate of the too much uh porn?
• 1:05:37
  SPEAKER_08: Since we teased it at the beginning, I was wondering if you if either of you have seen the Odyssey uh Christopher Nolan's remake of Gerard Damiano's uh 1977 film.
• 1:05:48
  SPEAKER_00: I did.
• 1:05:49
  SPEAKER_00: I I wrote a long review on Letterboxd.
• 1:05:51
  SPEAKER_08: Maybe we can riff a little bit since since we were so cruel to tease the audience at the beginning.
• 1:05:56
  SPEAKER_07: I haven't watched it, so I I please go.
• 1:05:58
  SPEAKER_08: It's definitely less good than the The Damiano version.
• 1:06:01
  SPEAKER_08: I will just like start with that.
• 1:06:03
  SPEAKER_08: Oh, I know that's the truth, so no.
• 1:06:05
  SPEAKER_08: I I mean I to be honest, I don't have that much to say about it, but it's kind of the only film that is like eligible for discussion in this uh window for me.
• 1:06:15
  SPEAKER_08: Um I kind of felt like I had over the last few years built up some trust.
• 1:06:21
  SPEAKER_08: I would say even like borderline affection for Christopher Nolan.
• 1:06:25
  SPEAKER_08: I'm fully back off the train.
• 1:06:27
  SPEAKER_08: I'm fully a hater.
• 1:06:28
  SPEAKER_08: I mean, this guy sucks, and this movie sucks.
• 1:06:32
  SPEAKER_08: Um it has some good monsters in it, which is also why I kind of came back to the fold.
• 1:06:40
  SPEAKER_08: But uh yeah, this is like everything I don't like about movies, and it's it's a it's a deeply annoying film, to be honest.
• 1:06:47
  SPEAKER_08: And I'm curious of about Oiko's perspective.
• 1:06:50
  SPEAKER_08: I don't want to just wail on this film because I don't think it's particularly interesting.
• 1:06:53
  SPEAKER_08: But one thing that I did mention when I wrote a little bit about the film, uh, is this problem I have with um character actors that this film seems very kind of characteristic of, which is that you know, classical film in a way, classical cinema in a way is about um like characterization and portraiture of smaller roles, uh, and so like this industrial system was always able to produce like weird faces, strange people, you know, like you would you would like it was it was kind of a basic etiquette of filmmaking that you had like a handsome lead, and then underneath like these weirdos that you would populate the film with, and through various periods of film history, those weirdos were allowed to be more more weird, and then less weird, more weird, less weird, and usually the best periods of film history correspond to the times when they were more weird.
• 1:07:52
  SPEAKER_08: But now I just feel like we're living in not even the low, the fallow period, we're just living in this time where every fucking character actor is being replaced by a movie star, and this movie is a perfect example of that.
• 1:08:06
  SPEAKER_08: There's a couple of you know, you got John Luziamo, uh a little bit for Samantha Morton, but everybody else is like Zendayers in this, fucking Robert Patterson, all these stupid actors showing up in this movie.
• 1:08:21
  SPEAKER_08: God, I was so pissed off.
• 1:08:24
  SPEAKER_00: Odyssei is a story I really like, like going back home, being changed, and what means home?
• 1:08:32
  SPEAKER_00: These questions are also talks about in a very profound way.
• 1:08:36
  SPEAKER_00: But this film is not about that.
• 1:08:37
  SPEAKER_00: It's basically about a war hero, so-called war hero who has a PTSD that we have been we have already seen in so many film American films.
• 1:08:48
  SPEAKER_00: And I feel like it's just a reiteration of that uh trope of like traumatized war war hero going back home.
• 1:08:56
  SPEAKER_00: And that was something that I really, really didn't like.
• 1:09:00
  SPEAKER_00: How Odyssey frame into a psychological trauma, uh traumatic experience in a very contemporary way.
• 1:09:09
  SPEAKER_00: That was my biggest, that's the thing that I hated the most because it's just about a man, about the future, about Nolan's obsession of like what type what kind of word that I'm gonna leave to my children.
• 1:09:22
  SPEAKER_00: It's the same uh framework that he had in Oppenheimer, a man who regrets, repents his actions, and it's very Christian.
• 1:09:31
  SPEAKER_00: And all these things combined with the terrible uh sense of space and time that he he's unable to write dialogue, basically.
• 1:09:41
  SPEAKER_00: He he just like the only scenes that he's he's capable of shooting is action set pieces.
• 1:09:47
  SPEAKER_00: And combined with what I said about how he interpreted Odyssey in a very American way, he's British, I get it, but is it's it's just like I think it's it the soul, the spirit of the film is very American.
• 1:10:01
  SPEAKER_07: If it was just like a monsters and sea adventure film, perhaps I'd be more interesting.
• 1:10:04
  SPEAKER_08: Uh maybe a little bit like you with some of those uh more arty Damiano films.
• 1:10:09
  SPEAKER_08: I'm just like, just get to the monsters, for fuck's sake.
• 1:10:12
  SPEAKER_08: You know, enough of this PTSD, trauma dumping, bullshit.
• 1:10:16
  SPEAKER_08: Like, come on.
• 1:10:18
  SPEAKER_08: Just you know, show us a Cyclops, show us the the whatever sea creatures and stuff.
• 1:10:24
  SPEAKER_08: And he doesn't even have the dignity to do that.
• 1:10:26
  SPEAKER_07: Disappointed that this was the case.
• 1:10:27
  SPEAKER_07: At some point I was kind of like hopeful because I as as you guys I think like the nut I like is the dumb maximalist filmmaker that doesn't that knows he he has like nothing interesting to say like psychologically or intellectually, which is why the Dark Knight Rises, I think, is my favorite villain.
• 1:10:42
  SPEAKER_07: Because I guess like Oppenheimer almost also like perhaps gave him like the confidence again, like, oh, I'm like an actual series artist.
• 1:10:50
  SPEAKER_07: Boo.
• 1:10:50
  SPEAKER_07: And that's like, no, just do like 10 and 2.
• 1:10:53
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, let's go.
• 1:10:54
  SPEAKER_00: That's enough.
• 1:10:55
  SPEAKER_00: That's it for this week.
• 1:10:57
  SPEAKER_00: Um, don't forget to send us emails.
• 1:10:59
  SPEAKER_00: Uh as you can see, we read them.
• 1:11:01
  SPEAKER_00: Um, send us complaints, love letters, and appreciations and comments, recommendations, or maybe even like screenings that you want to like give a shout out to.
• 1:11:11
  SPEAKER_00: Um, to outskirtsfilmmagazine at gmail.com.
• 1:11:15
  SPEAKER_00: And see you in the next episode in two weeks.
• 1:11:19
  SPEAKER_08: We will be moving from the world of pornography to a filmmaker who has no interest in sexuality and has no problematic elements.
• 1:11:29
  SPEAKER_08: That is Mr.
• 1:11:31
  SPEAKER_08: Tech Savory.
• 1:11:32
  SPEAKER_08: Of course, I'm being ironic, he is very much of a kind, and I'm sure if he had lived long enough, he would have also made pornographic films in his own way.
• 1:11:40
  SPEAKER_08: So, see you guys.