Latest / Take1.5 Podcast: Stories from the Messy In-between / Can Makgeolli Become America’s Next Big Drink? 미국에서 막걸리 파는 교포 사업가 케롤 MAKKU

Transcript

Can Makgeolli Become America’s Next Big Drink? 미국에서 막걸리 파는 교포 사업가 케롤 MAKKU · Take1.5 Podcast: Stories from the Messy In-between

0:00
As a Korean American or Asian American young female CEO, what
0:06
advice would you give to other women?
0:08
You need to fight for what you deserve and remember like your
0:13
sense of worth and to always negotiate and have to feel
0:17
Jonas. So I don't know what that is in
0:19
English. But I love it.
0:20
Jorasso, don't Jorjima. I don't.
0:22
I actually try to think about English translation, but it's
0:27
hard that you're always going to feel small and.
0:34
We have Carol Hack, founder and CEO of Baku All Natural Bakali,
0:41
a Korean rice drink. Bakali is like really
0:44
traditional Korean drink, right? How did you get started that's
0:47
so rare? Yeah.
0:52
So I think growing up, I always wanted to be a founder.
0:55
My parents both own their own businesses, and so I just grew
1:00
up with them always kind of managing their own schedules.
1:04
And I never really thought to be like a lawyer or doctor like the
1:09
typical Korean families push you to.
1:13
All of my parents did want me to be a lawyer, of course.
1:18
So yeah, after college, I just I didn't really know what I wanted
1:22
to do. And I had like a bunch of random
1:24
jobs and then I somehow met a tech founder at the time who
1:29
wanted to build this like tech app together.
1:33
So I had that experience for a year and I quickly realized tech
1:37
is not for me. So I went to Business School to
1:40
try to shift my career maybe more towards like CPG Consumer
1:46
Packaged Goods. I ended up working at ZX
1:51
Ventures, which is like a incubator venture arm of AB and
1:54
Bev, Anheuser Busch and Bev, the world's largest alcohol company.
1:58
What do I say right? Yeah, company.
2:02
So I was in this very like new and special unit that focused on
2:07
new innovations. And then eventually I was placed
2:11
as like project lead to lead like a, a new product launch in
2:14
China. And yeah, when I was working in
2:18
China, I would travel to Korea often.
2:21
And then I realized, oh, my young, my friends my age are
2:28
drinking Makoli here and they don't drink Makoli in the US And
2:31
I just found that really interesting.
2:33
And then my friends were like, oh, no, we don't always drink
2:35
Makoli. We just started drinking Imakoli
2:37
because there's these new Kraft Imakoli bars and we mostly just
2:42
drink Soji, but this is like a fun thing once in a while.
2:44
And we just wanted to show you because you work in the beverage
2:47
industry. So that's what exposed me to
2:51
like the craft Makali movement in Korea.
2:54
This was in 20/16/2017. And then when I returned to the
2:58
US and I was like, oh, maybe I'll go get a bottle of Makali.
3:02
I realized there are so few options and, and they taste so
3:06
different from what's offered like the premium offerings in
3:09
Korea. And then I, you know, I just
3:12
went down a rabbit hole of like, why would that be?
3:14
And, you know, could there be a market for this?
3:16
And if Korean food and Korean culture is trending, why
3:21
wouldn't Korean alcohol be next? And there's even with soju,
3:25
there is premium soju in Korea, but like people only really know
3:30
the green bottles here. And there could be so much more
3:36
in terms of like offerings of Korean alcohol.
3:39
And so I was like, OK, well, maybe I'll start a company focus
3:43
on on more traditional premium, good quality Korean alcohol.
3:50
And the first part that we decided on was Magoo because I
3:55
felt like there was a real lack of Margoli offerings.
3:59
And it didn't seem as scary as like competing with like chin
4:03
row. So juice, that was kind of the
4:05
back story of it. And this was eight years ago.
4:10
But yeah, I don't think I really realized what it meant to start
4:13
a beverage brand like I have. I was going into it very nicely.
4:19
Wow. It started off like as a fun
4:21
project. Yeah.
4:22
But you kept on going for eight years.
4:23
That's that's pretty good. I know.
4:26
I blinked and I was like, wow, it's been eight years.
4:30
What does Maku mean? Does it have a meaning?
4:34
No. I felt like one of the
4:36
challenges was that makoli is very hard to pronounce,
4:40
especially if you look at the traditional spelling of it.
4:43
It's MAKGEOLLI. So when Americans are trying to
4:48
read it, it'll take a few seconds and then they'll say
4:52
machioli. It is, you know, a shortened
4:55
abbreviation word on on those, you know, word Macaulay.
5:00
And also I was just studying a lot of brand names and realized
5:04
like now 2 syllables is good. There are certain characters
5:08
that are like funner to say like that.
5:10
The K cave. I thought it was like a, you
5:12
know, fun little sound. Yeah, yeah.
5:17
So yeah, it it it was a very easy name.
5:22
Yeah, it is. Come up with.
5:24
It's very catchy. I was like, oh, Makku.
5:26
What's Makku? I wonder?
5:28
Makku. Yeah.
5:29
I figured that it had something to do with Makkoli, but that's
5:33
really good. That's very clever.
5:35
Nice. You know, for those of us who
5:39
don't know Korean traditional beverage, tell us a little bit
5:43
about bakkoli. What is it?
5:46
So it's Chris Alf's alcohol. It's made with steamed rice, and
5:51
when you ferment it with traditional fermentation starter
5:55
called nuruk that's native to Korea, you put that in a pot
6:01
with water and then you ferment it and it becomes makoli.
6:04
So it's a very, very simple humble drink with three
6:08
ingredients and it's been around for they see centuries.
6:12
Like all the sources online, it's different.
6:14
People will say like it came from this dynasty or this
6:17
dynasty, but everyone will kind of agree that it is the oldest
6:20
referenced alcohol in any kind of like Korean literature.
6:25
And it's always present for any kind of Korean celebrations or
6:29
ceremonies or rituals or traditions.
6:32
And so, yeah, it's a it's a family drink.
6:36
I would say it's, you know, celebrated and, and consumed
6:40
together and shared amongst people from all, all
6:43
generations. And it's, you know, typically
6:46
very low ABV, like 6%, and it's slightly sweet.
6:50
So it's just a lot easier to drink casually and to pair with
6:55
food. But we wanted to do something a
6:58
little bit more accessible and a little bit more close to what
7:02
mukhali is kind of perceived as in Korea.
7:04
And so we just add, we just back sweet with some cane sugar.
7:08
So you'll probably get, you know, some part of the sweetness
7:12
from the rice naturally, but our sugar doesn't come fully from
7:17
just the rice. I see, I see.
7:19
Wow. So you know when I think of
7:21
Bakali, I think a very traditional setting where you
7:27
know like in K dramas they always have Bakali at the BBQ
7:32
table. Or the other thing I know is
7:36
when the the Korean Ajmas and Ajashish come down for my king,
7:41
they always have Bakali and the dog right at the base of the
7:44
mountain, you know? So those are the images I have
7:48
of Buckley. Yes.
7:50
But your brand, I feel like it's very trendy, even the packaging
7:54
and the name. Are you trying to introduce that
7:58
to a different market? Yeah.
8:02
So, you know, for me growing up, Makali was always like a drink.
8:07
You drink when you it's raining. Like it's raining, Let's go
8:11
drink some Makali with some Pajan.
8:15
But I couldn't. Like, I didn't want to introduce
8:18
Makali to the US market that way because this doesn't make sense.
8:21
Even Koreans don't know why we do that.
8:24
Yeah. And there's different
8:25
hypothesis, but I don't want to coming in with some like and
8:29
sensible like this is a drink you drink when it rains and it
8:33
would be also very difficult to do that for me.
8:36
I was like, let's come with like a blank mind and refresh start.
8:42
This is like a low alcohol like very carbonated refreshing
8:47
drink. It was very had very similar
8:51
attributes to beer and hard cider and hard seltzer and a lot
8:55
of the can of beverages in America.
8:57
So and then the plus was it had a rice plate flavor profile.
9:03
It is oftentimes gluten free and it's a little bit sweeter than
9:08
the other offering. So it's kind of like an
9:11
alternative to beer or hard cider, like hard apple cider.
9:15
And so I think for the longest time in America, the only other
9:20
alternative to beer was hard cider.
9:22
But you know, the growth has stagnated.
9:25
And I think it's because you can only get so much flavor profile
9:28
with just apples. And it's, you know, maybe people
9:31
are looking for something new or different.
9:33
And people are also interested in a lot of different cultures
9:37
and especially Korean culture now.
9:38
And so I thought, you know, with all this Korean heritage and
9:42
history and the the base flavor profile being rice, which is
9:47
like can be appreciated by anyone, I thought it was a very
9:53
approachable and sensible alternative to any kind of low
9:57
alcohol can't refreshing beverage here.
10:01
So for that reason, I was like, OK, we're going to put it in a
10:04
can and I'm going to try to make this an alternative to like,
10:08
beer and hard cider in the market.
10:11
And that was a thought process. And so, you know, in Korea would
10:14
inform, oh, you drink this with pusam or you drink this with
10:18
tubo or kimchi or after a hike or, you know, they have all of
10:22
these occasions and food. And that's easier for consumers
10:25
to, I think, grasp in their brain and remember, oh, it's
10:29
raining. Oh, we just went hiking.
10:30
Mukili is that drink. But I think those occasions are
10:34
a little bit more limiting here. And like that has been created
10:39
collectively by Koreans for centuries.
10:42
And like I as one single person, it would be really, really hard
10:46
to build that culture. I want to drink.
10:48
And so I kind of just launched it in the market to see how
10:52
people are drinking it. And it's just very similar to
10:54
how people drink beer. A.
10:56
Very. Casual barbecues, picnics with
10:59
dinner after dinner. By themselves.
11:03
Not by themselves, but there's a very large range of occasions,
11:08
and I think one also huge difference with Koreans and
11:12
Americans is that Koreans will always pair food and drink
11:15
together. Whereas.
11:16
Here a lot of times people will just drink without any kind of
11:20
under meal. So it it allows for more Maku
11:25
occasions. So we're still figuring out like
11:28
what's our messaging? Is it appropriate for us to set
11:31
certain occasions and ways to consume Maku or do we just let
11:36
the customers dictate trigger that?
11:38
Yeah, I think we're allowing it to be more flexible and yeah,
11:44
not really dictating this is this is how you drink Bakoli.
11:48
Yeah, but you're introducing Bakoli and how it could be
11:52
paired or consumed in many, many different ways and occasions.
11:57
So that's really interesting. I, I went online, I wanted to
12:02
order some Baku before this, but there was the Whole Foods is 2
12:07
miles from here. But they, they were, they didn't
12:10
carry. So I was wondering where can I
12:13
find Baku? We don't.
12:14
We don't have, I'm not going North Carolina, but you'll find
12:19
it in Atlanta. So another reason to go to hell,
12:23
Yes. Yeah.
12:24
I love the packaging by the way. I think at the time all the
12:28
craft beer packaging was like very, very busy with a lot of
12:32
graphics and graffiti, like very Brooklyn style, a lot of art on
12:36
it. And while they were all
12:37
beautiful on a shelf together, they all kind of blend in
12:41
together and it becomes like too much for the human eye.
12:44
So then I was like, let me go the opposite way and go super,
12:47
super simple. And then the stripe is because
12:51
originally we're going to launch the can upside down because
12:54
another challenge that we have is like you're shaking the
12:56
can't. You have to shake Macaulay,
12:58
right? But no one is thinking of
13:00
shaking a can because everyone thinks it's going to explode.
13:03
And so we wanted a mark that was intact upside down or right side
13:07
up. And so then it was like the
13:09
flash that no one seemed to own in terms of like, IP, your brand
13:13
identity. But we decided to import from
13:19
Korea. And then no one had an answer
13:21
for whether or not we could pass customs if we had an upside down
13:25
can. And I didn't want to risk it.
13:26
So I was like, let's just have a normal, yeah.
13:29
So when you say we like do you, I hope you're not doing this
13:33
alone. I don't think you could do it
13:35
alone, but I have a team. You are.
13:38
Yeah, I did have a team until last year, but obviously with a
13:42
team you have much higher expectations.
13:45
And then it takes a lot more of my time to manage.
13:48
And I was able to keep the team going because I kept on
13:51
fundraising. Then I usually fundraise in
13:54
Korea and it takes a lot of my time.
13:57
And then I just felt like I was getting so diluted, like I was
14:01
just losing so much ownership of the company and we weren't like
14:06
growing fast enough. Or it's like, OK, but we're
14:09
valued at 100 million. So even if I own like 30%, I'm
14:12
fine. So I realize it's going to be a
14:15
very like slow growing market and it may take a really long
14:18
time and it may not be the best business model for investors to
14:22
want to invest in because they want like a shorter time horizon
14:25
for return. So I decided like, I'll stop
14:29
fundraising, but that also means that I have to reduce my
14:32
expenses. And you know, the biggest
14:34
expense pocket for us was, was our our workforce.
14:37
So yeah, I had to make a really difficult decision to like let
14:41
them go because I wanted to run the business a different way.
14:45
And, you know, I'm also expecting a second baby soon.
14:50
So I, you know, it's hard to run a business full time while
14:56
trying to also manage a growing family.
14:59
And so of course, for this time in my life, I just want a, a
15:02
smaller, quieter business that I could kind of navigate on my own
15:09
based on like my terms. It sounds like a lot of work.
15:13
It's just on the business side alone, but of course you have a
15:16
growing family on that too. Yeah, the Macri is made in
15:21
Korea, I think you mentioned, right?
15:23
Yes, yeah. You have a factory, or what do
15:25
you call it, like a plant, brewery, production facility?
15:28
Or brewery. It's not our own.
15:30
We work with a partner and that was one of the largest and most
15:36
important decisions for us and thankfully we found a really
15:39
great partner early on. I'm not an entrepreneur like you
15:43
are, so how do you even like come up with the idea and plan
15:46
it out, follow through and you know, like get find all these
15:50
resources and put it together? Wow, that's just amazing to me.
15:54
You know, it's funny because I have people come and they're
15:56
like, I want to start a business, but I can't think of
16:00
an idea. And for me it's like I my
16:01
problem is I have so many business ideas.
16:04
I always have to shut down because I'm like, I need to
16:07
focus on this one. So I think there's definitely
16:10
natural born like idea generators versus like whenever
16:15
I see something, I'm like, oh, if I started that, like if I did
16:18
that. Yeah, you're a natural born
16:21
entrepreneur, but I guess your parents, I guess that really
16:24
influenced you a lot. Yeah, I think my brother and
16:28
sister were like, I want nothing to do with that.
16:31
I don't want the responsibility, I don't want the risk, I don't
16:34
want blah, blah, blah. But it's, it's just my
16:38
personality where I was like, I don't want a boss and I I'd
16:43
rather take the risk and build something and have a lot more
16:46
fun doing that working a corporate job.
16:48
Tell me about your work experience with working with
16:52
Koreans in Korea as a Korean American.
16:57
Like, do you speak the language fluently?
17:00
I want to say fluently, but enough to conduct business.
17:03
OK, that's fluent. And definitely my Korean, you
17:09
know, fluency expanded as a did business in Korea.
17:14
All my fundraising was in Korea, all my production meetings were
17:18
in Korean. So I think I just had to learn
17:22
the vocabulary of a lot of like business terms when it comes to
17:26
production and fundraising. But I've been going a lot less
17:32
since I had my child and you know, I've been pregnant a
17:36
couple times. So my Korean fluency stuff, I'm
17:40
like losing it. And now I'm like over relying on
17:42
ChatGPT. So I'm just like, I don't even
17:45
read my Korean emails. I just plug it in to translate
17:49
and then I write it in English and I translate it back.
17:51
So I'm like losing that exercise.
17:54
But definitely like I speak more than average Korean because I
17:58
grew up with my grandma, like she lived with us and she didn't
18:03
speak any English. So that and I went to Kangarakya
18:08
my whole life. And then, you know, I listen to
18:12
Korean music and I watch Korean dramas all the time.
18:14
So and then I also studied in Korea for two years during
18:19
college. OK, so that helps.
18:21
Yeah. But how about culturally?
18:22
Like, I mean, you're making true, right?
18:25
I mean, and then they're like, what do you know about?
18:27
So you Korean? I mean, you're American girl.
18:30
Like like how do they perceive you?
18:33
I think that was something I was a little worried about because
18:38
even before I went to Korea, I had a brewery here and I was
18:42
pitching the product to Korean restaurant owners.
18:46
And even with my previous company, the tech company, I had
18:49
something to do with restaurants.
18:51
And I was doing like, sales. And people were like, OK, so
18:55
who's the owner of the company? And it's like, oh, it's me.
18:58
And they were like, you look like you're in high school.
19:01
Like some people, they just couldn't or they would laugh,
19:05
you know, it was, it was very like disrespectful.
19:10
And this was eight years ago where I looking back, I really
19:13
look like a baby. So it was like me going to a lot
19:17
of these established monthly companies, asking them for
19:21
production contracts for me to build the Mokali category in
19:25
America. So I do think it was very much
19:28
like unbelievable. But somehow I think because we
19:32
all had a shared interest, like most of these companies in Korea
19:36
are interested in building the Mokali category in the US, They
19:40
just don't have either the time or the resources with the team
19:43
to do that. So as long as the terms were
19:47
favorable, no one was like quick to like ignore me.
19:52
Like most of them gave me a meeting and a lot of them were
19:55
like, OK, like we'll bring it up to the CEO.
19:58
Or sometimes I met the CEO myself.
20:01
But then the partner that we ended up choosing was I met with
20:05
the CEO from day one and he was so excited about what I was
20:10
trying to do. And I think he didn't take my
20:13
age or gender. Or lack of experience into
20:17
consideration. And he was just like, yeah,
20:19
we'll give it a shot. So I got really lucky, I think,
20:21
in meeting the right people. And I think generally it's just
20:25
like Brewers are good people. That's kind of.
20:29
Are they? Yeah.
20:30
Yeah, I don't know. I feel like a lot of them it
20:32
just, it just comes from like a place of passion or it's been
20:36
like a family project for generations.
20:38
And so, and a lot of them are younger too because they're
20:41
taking on their parents business.
20:44
And that's kind of where I think a lot of the the Bukoli boom
20:48
came from, the craft Mokoli boom, like the average Mokoli
20:51
brewing age went from 60 to 30. Wow.
20:55
Yeah. A lot of new.
20:58
CEO's, granted this is like more recent times are young.
21:02
They're in their early 30s. Hedging named the CEO that I was
21:06
talking to. He's older and their challenge
21:11
was definitely like, but we don't know how to reach a
21:14
younger generation. And he's all, he was also like
21:18
the president of the Mokoli Association in Korea.
21:20
And so his whole like life goal is to globalize Mokoli.
21:26
And so, you know, they have no intention.
21:29
They had no intention of coming to America because it was like a
21:33
market that he had no confidence about.
21:34
But I think he was really, I don't know, probably intrigued
21:39
and and happy to hear that I was like trying to do something.
21:44
Wow, it sounds like you're in the right place at the right
21:48
time, meeting the right. People.
21:51
Yeah. Yeah, I was.
21:52
I think I was fortunate. Wow, that's, that's great.
21:55
Good for you. I'm happy.
22:00
Oh my goodness. I yeah, that's I mean, bakkali
22:03
is such a rare, I mean unknown beverage in America.
22:07
So, you know, I'm sure it introducing and get people
22:11
finding it interesting will take time.
22:15
Of course, among Koreans, we all know what Makkali is and but you
22:19
also have like flavour Bakkalis too, right?
22:21
Or those what's Which one's your best seller so far?
22:25
Mango is our best seller after original in terms of flavour and
22:29
the flavours. I definitely did create for the
22:31
non Korean audience as a kind of like a stepping.
22:37
Stone to. Oh, maybe if they like a mango
22:41
flavour, they'll be willing to try a mango macoli, even though
22:44
they don't know what macoli is. And if they like that, maybe
22:46
they'll try regular macoli. And so it was always kind of
22:49
like a modern take or like fusion.
22:54
To yeah, yeah. Something a little bit more
22:57
accessible and fun. And I also thought like because
22:59
we're using real fruit, all of our Maccalee flavors are like
23:03
the color of the fruit. And so I thought it would be
23:06
like very visually using with like photos and.
23:10
Like Maccably cocktails and things like that.
23:13
Yeah, yeah, yeah. So if I were to open your brain,
23:17
what how many percentage of your brain would be on Maccably?
23:23
I mean more so on Maku, but yeah.
23:30
Well, we are. We are starting a new project on
23:33
Soju right now. So.
23:35
It's actually taking up just as much time as Makuu, but I would
23:40
say still like family is like 40% and then.
23:46
Yeah. Yeah, 16.
23:52
Makes sense, but as a working mom, young working mom with
23:57
young baby babies soon to be. How?
24:01
How do you? Manage your emotions.
24:06
Like, you know, don't you get stressed or anxious about am I
24:10
doing what? What am I doing?
24:13
I mean, I'm asking you as a mom, like, right, Right.
24:16
Yeah, yeah. I think this business has
24:20
trained me not to be as stressed and anxious, and I think
24:26
generally it's not in my personality.
24:29
I've definitely built that over. I've definitely gotten more
24:32
anxious and more stressed by having this business, but we've
24:36
been through so much difficulty and challenge that I think I've
24:39
learned to learn how to not stress out over things I can't
24:44
control. So like even recently we got
24:50
into like a car accident and thankfully everyone was fine.
24:54
But then when the ambulance came there, like you just got into a
24:56
car accident, how are you? Like, you seem totally fine.
24:58
And I was like, yes, nobody was hurt.
25:01
Like nobody was hurt. So I'm just very happy.
25:05
But I think the way that I encounter difficulty and
25:11
challenges now, it's just like, we'll figure it out.
25:15
As long as everyone's like healthy and fine, we'll figure
25:18
it out. So I think the only thing that
25:20
would really give me stress is not even if the company goes out
25:24
of business, because that's always a risk that I, I know
25:26
that right? It's a very high likelihood and
25:30
it's not the end of my life. Like I could go find a job or
25:32
start another company and it would obviously be very like
25:38
devastating. But I think more so for me, it's
25:41
like personal like if someone in my family were to be unhealthy
25:46
or get harmed or so someone in my social circle, I think that
25:52
is a lot more or like more worldly events.
25:54
I think that's a little bit takes it to let me emotionally
25:58
then anything that happens with the business.
26:01
But yeah, even as a mom, I'm a everyone says I'm a very like
26:05
chill mom. I don't, I'm very like LAX, I
26:12
guess, but also like my parents weren't very strict with me.
26:16
So I, you know, definitely I'm a very, very present mom, but I,
26:24
I'm not like a tiger mom And I, you know, if it's anything
26:30
medical, I'll just take him to the doctor and I, I just try not
26:33
to worry about what I what I don't have to worry about.
26:35
Wow. Yeah, How do you arrive there?
26:41
Because many of us, you know, we want to be that mom, the chill
26:44
mom and like not worry about even losing a business.
26:49
You said that's always a risk that you you take on what
26:53
narrative or space takes you there?
26:57
Like I'm really. Curious.
26:59
I think it's because there's been so many times where we were
27:02
on the brink of losing the business, not losing the
27:06
business work, but like either the usually the company running
27:10
out of money. And so I was so prepared to
27:14
figure out what was next. So I have already thought
27:16
through, I've already wrote like multiple letters of like a
27:20
goodbye to our community and to my investors and like, try to
27:26
explain what happened or even times where I was so burnt out,
27:30
where I was like, and maybe I make an intentional decision to
27:33
step away from this business. Because at one point when I was
27:37
so burnt out, I realized like this business is consuming me
27:40
and it's like kind of changing me as a person into a way I
27:43
don't want to become. And I had to step away and I was
27:47
like, this isn't, this isn't me. The business is not me.
27:50
Like it's, it's something I'm working on and it's something
27:53
I'm building, but it just doesn't have to define me.
27:56
And so I think because I'm on year 8, I had to go through many
28:02
years of like trying to separate the business and my myself worth
28:06
and myself identity and talking to a lot of other founders who
28:11
like either shut down their businesses and then had that
28:14
like huge depression after of like feeling like a failure.
28:16
And then me learning to about like, because then I'm the one
28:20
talking about a bit, right? Like you're not a failure, blah,
28:23
blah. And then some, like if I ever
28:26
come down to that, like I have to remember the scene for
28:28
myself. So it's definitely been like a
28:32
process. And who knows if it actually
28:35
happens, if I would be able to be as positive.
28:38
But I also think generally as a founder, you have to have a very
28:42
positive mindset. And like I have a very positive
28:44
disposition to begin with my personality.
28:47
So I think that all helps. And it's also because I have a
28:51
really great support system. So I have my immediate family, I
28:55
have my husband's family, I have my family, I have a lot of
28:58
friends. And so I know that worse comes
29:02
to worse, like I'll always find my way to be OK.
29:06
Wow. That's, that's very amazing to
29:10
me. Like the way you explain it's,
29:13
it sounds like you have really good boundaries set up around
29:18
your personal life, your work, yourself.
29:21
And also very are you? Would you say you were a very
29:24
introspective person? I didn't think that, but I feel
29:28
like everyone I talked to always makes a comment that I'm very
29:33
self aware. So I don't know, I guess because
29:40
so many people have said that. And then I talked to people
29:44
where I realized they have no self-awareness.
29:46
I'm like, maybe I'm a little bit more self aware, but I think I
29:52
have a pretty good sense of self and what is important to me and
29:56
my values. And that helps with.
30:02
I do think a lot of it comes from my identity and me being
30:06
very comfortable with being American and having such a like
30:10
I have a very, very close to my family.
30:14
So I think that all helps. But I do think, yeah, I don't
30:18
know, maybe, maybe I am introspective.
30:21
It sounds like it. You say you're very comfortable
30:24
with yourself and also you're very close to your family.
30:28
Your parents were not really strict or overbearing.
30:33
What was the message you think that you received you from your
30:37
parents? So my mom, she was a nurse in
30:39
Korea and then she came to America on some programs to
30:43
become a nurse in America. And she knew knowing like she
30:46
didn't know anyone. And so she just like, I think
30:49
her hospital was in Brooklyn. So she was living in Brooklyn
30:54
and, you know, very typical immigrant family.
30:58
She came with nothing, no family members, no friends.
31:00
And it was a very scary experience.
31:03
She said it was a predominantly like black community and it was
31:07
the first time stepping outside of Korea for that.
31:09
For her, it was very scary because she was like, how am I
31:13
going to find a community here? And then from there, she
31:18
somehow, like, met my dad at church, I think, yeah, at the
31:23
church retreat. And then she decided to stop
31:26
working while she had us because there's three of us, three kids.
31:29
And she was like, it's too hard to work with three kids.
31:32
But then when she was older, she don't want to go back to being a
31:37
nurse because it was too physical and she really believed
31:41
in Eastern medicine. So then she went to school and
31:43
got her PhD in acupuncture and herbal medicine when she was
31:49
like 50 something. She graduated top of her class
31:52
valedictorian. English is not her first
31:54
language, you know. So I think from her it was very
31:59
much like you could, you could do anything at any age,
32:03
basically anything's possible. And as long as you put your mind
32:07
to it, you know, you'll always find a way.
32:10
And if you work hard, you know, you can basically enough.
32:14
Nothing is impossible. And she never, like, she has a
32:20
lot of confidence. I think.
32:21
You know, my dad, he's just like so hardworking.
32:26
He's just so, so, so hardworking.
32:29
And that he's very involved in church and like, you know, he's
32:32
an elder and he has a lot of leadership positions, just very,
32:37
very generous. And so from him, it was very
32:40
much like you always have to think about other people and you
32:45
always have to work hard. And so I think that's, that's
32:49
what I get from my dad. Oh.
32:51
That's fantastic how lucky you are.
32:55
Yeah, really. Because I do, I mean, I talk to
32:58
a lot of different people and a lot of us have somewhat
33:03
traumatic family background, you know, whether it was intentional
33:07
or not intentional. But that's really, that's really
33:10
great. No wonder you're so chill and
33:15
confident. And chill.
33:17
They are chill as well, yeah. Oh, and the dream, the vision
33:20
and the dream to really make this happen, your business
33:23
happen. What are what do your parents
33:26
think of your business? Baku making Bakali.
33:29
I think they were very worried in the beginning because a, they
33:34
know how hard it is to have your own business, like especially my
33:37
dad. And then they were like you, you
33:41
just got your MBA and you had a great job and like, you really
33:45
want to let it go to start your own company.
33:47
And it's not just any company, it's Makali.
33:50
And also because they're so involved in church.
33:54
Yeah. Yeah, they were a little bit
33:55
worried, like, OK, everyone's going to know.
33:57
My daughter's starting an alcohol company.
34:01
So there was a bit of that, but now I think regardless of like
34:06
how hard it is, they're always so proud of, of where I am.
34:11
And even I always, you know, complain to them of, oh, it's so
34:16
hard. I don't know if it's ever going
34:17
to work. And they're always like, oh, you
34:20
will make it work, right? So they're always encouraging
34:23
me. You ever offered to give them
34:25
some free Buckley for the church?
34:28
Just they they will give it to their personal friends in
34:34
church, but they won't bring it to church.
34:37
It sounds like you have really great family relationship.
34:41
What sort of parenting advice would you give to yourself?
34:45
You know, raising 2 soon to be two children.
34:54
I think to always, I think self-confidence is the most
34:59
important thing to learn as a, as a child or as a young adult,
35:04
because it, it will stay with you forever.
35:07
And I think even when you are making friends or if you're
35:11
dating or you're applying for a job, I think that really shines
35:17
and people can, they will know someone who has confidence
35:21
versus not. And, and it's really like
35:24
genuine confidence. And I think that really
35:27
genuinely comes from the love of parents.
35:30
And so for me, I just want to always be very commutative and
35:37
affectionate to my kids to make sure that they know that they
35:41
are loved and I will be them for them no matter what.
35:44
But I would like them to like for me and my siblings, like we
35:49
made so many mistakes growing up.
35:51
I remember once I was like, I got in trouble for like, taking
35:56
something from a store, like when I was young and I was so
35:59
scared to see my parents and I thought I would get in trouble.
36:06
And all they said were, are you OK?
36:10
And I was like, so shocked that I wasn't getting in trouble.
36:13
I wasn't getting grounded. And now I guess they thought I
36:17
was going through something or maybe I was influenced by my
36:19
friends because I wasn't good with my friends at the time.
36:22
So there was a lot of moments where I thought like they
36:25
reacted a very different and they always kind of reacted with
36:28
love and care about like my well doing and my well-being.
36:33
And I think a lot of my friends who struggle with their parents,
36:37
it's usually an emotional like unavailability or life
36:41
communication or lack of affection.
36:44
And so I think I'm not exactly sure why that comes from a lot
36:49
of immigrant parents, but I guess parents in general, like I
36:54
think that's a really important thing to always showcase to
36:59
your, to your children. And so I, the other thing is
37:03
like, I want to make sure that they always know that I will be
37:05
available for them and like they will always be my priority.
37:08
So making sure I'm not like one of those people who put work
37:12
before or like business before family.
37:15
But yeah, that's another reason. Like I structured my business
37:19
this way because I was like, I want to be here when my kids are
37:23
young and I want to see them grow up and my business I can
37:27
focus on later. I I need to talk to your
37:31
parents, get some parenting tips.
37:36
The legacy continues, right? Legacy of love and infection
37:41
that's. Wonderful.
37:42
I haven't hit the hard parts yet where they're like talking back
37:44
to me and I don't know, sticking out of the house, who knows?
37:48
Who knows if I could show them unconditional love?
37:51
Well, that's, that's wonderful. That's I'm so happy to hear that
37:55
from a fellow Korean American because I like I mentioned
37:59
before, I usually hear the opposite story, you know, so
38:04
which is heartbreaking have. A lot of trauma, yeah.
38:07
Talked about confidence. How do you tell someone has a
38:10
genuine confidence? What does that look like?
38:13
I mean, it's usually very subtle.
38:16
It's like disposition and demeanor and the way they speak
38:19
and the way they call themselves and the way they negotiate and
38:23
they stand up for themselves or the way they talk about all of
38:27
their accomplishments. And I think in general, and even
38:32
me as like an Asian American woman, I was never able to stand
38:38
up for myself at work or like ask for raises or, you know, if,
38:43
if there was like white male in the room, I was always
38:47
intimidated. So like, I knew the things that
38:52
to do and I, I always kind of knew like, oh, why am I acting
38:55
like this? But so it's a lot harder to do
38:58
than than I say. But I think the younger
39:01
generations are much better at being confident and standing up
39:06
for themselves. And I don't know if it's because
39:08
there's so many, so much advice on social media or I don't know,
39:13
I don't know where the Gen. Z gets all of this knowledge and
39:18
confidence from. But now most of the people that
39:23
I'm interviewing are much younger and they are sometimes
39:28
overconfident. But yeah, it's usually just
39:32
being able to really stand up for yourself and communicate in
39:38
a way that puts you in a very bigger than what you are, I
39:42
feel. Yeah, yeah.
39:43
For us, in the past, we would all make ourselves smaller than
39:46
what we are. Right, yes, so true, so true.
39:49
I mean many of us who are in the in between spaces where we are
39:53
either both, either or both Korean and American or Korean or
39:58
American or something in between, right.
40:01
Self-image while we're growing up is, I think, a very critical
40:05
part of. Our self-confidence building
40:09
like knowing who we are and being comfortable with who we
40:13
are. Well how was that for you?
40:15
Were you always like that confident and proud of being a
40:19
Korean American or did it have any effect on you?
40:23
How was that for you? Or had?
40:24
An issue with being Korean American because I was always so
40:29
integrated in Korean American communities, like it was always
40:34
available to me. So middle school, high school,
40:37
elementary school and I was, I always went to church and church
40:41
was a huge part of my upbringing.
40:43
And a lot of my close friends were church that I would see
40:46
every Friday and Sunday and it was a Korean American church.
40:50
And then I think high school is the first time I went out of my
40:55
zone, out of my district. And so I was exposed to a
41:02
different population, I guess, but they're still, it was still
41:06
like predominantly Asian school. But then I realized that I was a
41:11
lot more Korean than other Korean Americans in the US or
41:16
even like in other parts of New York City, like farther from
41:19
Flushing. But then in those cases, I kind
41:24
of gravitated towards, back towards like, like Korean
41:28
American friends. And so I decided to choose a
41:31
college that was a very American school.
41:34
Like I wanted the whole like American experience.
41:37
And I was like, I'm going to make American this time because
41:40
I feel like I grew up my whole life just being so Korean.
41:43
And I live in America and I want to see what America looks like.
41:47
So I went to the University of Michigan.
41:51
You know, I wanted that football experience.
41:53
And I was like, maybe I'll join a sorority, but I went to like a
41:58
few of the sorority like parties and, and it was such a big
42:02
school that I was terrified at my first few weeks.
42:07
And I was like so uncomfortable that I decided like, I'm going
42:11
to transfer back to New York. And I was like telling my
42:14
parents I'm going to go to NYU. But then I ended up going to
42:19
church, a current American church.
42:21
And then I made friends, like, instantly.
42:24
And I went back to my pattern of like, just having a whole Korean
42:29
American crew, like, community. Yeah.
42:33
So that was my college years. And then I went to Business
42:37
School. And again, I was like, oh, OK,
42:40
I'm going to really try to make American friends this time.
42:43
And there I had a little bit more success.
42:45
Like I intentionally did not join the Korean Business
42:47
Association. I've been enjoying that Asian
42:49
Business Association. So I made more diverse friends,
42:54
but I realized they're mostly Asian again.
42:56
So I never had, like, an issue with being Korean American.
43:01
It was more the opposite issue where I was like, I wish I could
43:04
diversify myself a little bit more.
43:07
Yeah. But when the options were there,
43:09
it was so quick. Like I was so easily attracted
43:13
to go back to my roots and like a place of familiarity and, you
43:17
know, sense of belonging. Yeah, that's just has been my
43:20
life trajectory. And I was like, oh, well, I
43:22
guess I'm kind of like, And now especially as a founder doing a
43:28
Korean American business, right, always supporting like all these
43:32
Korean American communities. And now I have a lot of Korean
43:35
American founders and I married a Korean American husband and I
43:41
live in a very Korean American community.
43:43
Once again, I was like, I guess this will just be my life.
43:47
And I, you know, I don't have to be ashamed of it.
43:49
I guess this is still an American experience for me.
43:53
Exactly. Absolutely.
43:55
You know, although I think a lot of us find ourselves in that
43:59
space too, like, oh, I want to make non Korean friends or like
44:03
the, the Caucasian friends. I want to be more, I don't know
44:07
American right than Korean. I, I think we do because and
44:13
people try in many different ways.
44:16
Like some people just shun the Korean community all together to
44:20
be more like or because I think a lot of us feel like we have to
44:27
be more to to be successful or accepted in this country.
44:35
So I have friends who've done that when they were younger and
44:40
they're more comfortable with the non Korean or non Asian
44:44
communities now, but I realize usually it's because they aren't
44:49
from places that were predominantly non.
44:53
Asian, yeah, like North Carolina, Right, right, right.
44:57
And. So they had from a very young
45:00
age, like this idea of I don't want to be Asian, but I don't
45:06
think most of my friends who grew up in very Korean American
45:10
communities really ever felt the need to try to diversify outside
45:15
of, you know, Korean American communities.
45:19
I think I'm a little bit more open minded where I felt like,
45:23
am I getting the real American experience and am I being too,
45:28
you know, close minded by only having Korean American friends?
45:33
But then I didn't want to unnaturally, you know, force my
45:38
life one way or another. So yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
45:42
I mean, like you say, every, all, all these things are
45:45
American experience, Korean American experience, and you're
45:48
making Makoli. How amazing is that?
45:52
A Korean American girl making Makoli.
45:55
Korean American woman, I should say.
45:56
Yeah. One more thing, as a Korean
46:01
American or Asian American young female CEO, what advice would
46:07
you give to other women who are thinking about or in the same
46:12
track as you? You.
46:14
You need to fight for what you deserve.
46:16
And for many, many years in the beginning of our business, I
46:19
didn't remember like your sense of worth and to always negotiate
46:24
and always even when you're starting out not to.
46:29
So I don't know what that is in English, but.
46:32
I love it, yeah. Yeah, I actually try to think
46:37
about English translation, but whatever.
46:42
It's hard that you're always gonna feel small and intimidated
46:46
in the beginning. Yeah, I think that like saying
46:49
fake it till you make it, a lot of that is necessary in the
46:53
beginning. Sometimes I wonder if the
46:56
business would have been different if I started it now,
47:00
because I just feel like I would have fought for myself and not
47:05
let so many things go that have, you know, cost my business so
47:09
much money and time. But but yeah, maybe maybe the
47:15
younger women are different now. Yeah, I mean all that, all that
47:19
is foundation that you have built.
47:22
Yes, yeah. So your advice, George Ma?
47:24
Yeah. Basically, yeah.
47:27
I love it. I love it.
47:29
That's so great. We have seen a few different
47:32
versions of Carol Pack today. Most importantly, George Ma,
47:36
take 1.5 pockets listeners. George Ma.
47:39
That's the nugget of wisdom today.
47:42
Thank you, Carol, for your time. I I really enjoy talking with
47:45
you. Thank you so much for having me.
47:48
It's really fun if you're not following us on YouTube.
47:52
And please follow, subscribe and share.