Latest / Making The Impact - A Dance Competition Podcast / A Place For Every Dancer - Gender in the Dance Studio

Transcript

A Place For Every Dancer - Gender in the Dance Studio · Making The Impact - A Dance Competition Podcast

• 0:07
  SPEAKER_03: Have you ever wondered what goes on behind the table in a dance competition?
• 0:11
  SPEAKER_03: Exactly what are the judges looking for anyway?
• 0:13
  SPEAKER_03: This is making the impact of the dance competition podcast.
• 0:16
  SPEAKER_03: Each week we'll cover a different topic related to the world of competitive dance from the perspective of the judges behind the table.
• 0:23
  SPEAKER_03: In the Western dance world, gender has traditionally defined much of our dance culture from the entire way where the movements we perform and practice, and the characters we portray.
• 0:32
  SPEAKER_03: As our society evolves and changes, and old traditions are investigated and challenged, the dance world must also recognize the importance of inclusivity to all genders.
• 0:41
  SPEAKER_03: On today's episode of Making the Impact, we discuss gender roles in the dance studio and what can be done to dismantle old traditions in favor of a more welcoming environment for all dancers.
• 0:53
  SPEAKER_00: Hey everybody, it's Courtney Ortiz, and welcome to Making the Impact a Dance Competition Podcast.
• 0:59
  SPEAKER_00: I'm your host, and I am here alongside my co-host, Leslie Mueller.
• 1:04
  SPEAKER_00: Hello, dance lovers! We are super excited for this topic today.
• 1:07
  SPEAKER_00: We have two fabulous IDA judges, as always, joining us to discuss gender in the classroom.
• 1:13
  SPEAKER_00: It's a topic that we've been waiting to discuss on the podcast for a long time.
• 1:16
  SPEAKER_00: So we're really happy to finally be here and doing it now.
• 1:20
  SPEAKER_00: So stay tuned for that coming soon.
• 1:22
  SPEAKER_00: We're going to introduce our guests very shortly.
• 1:25
  SPEAKER_00: But before we do that, we just want to give a shout out to everyone that's been listening to the podcast in season two.
• 1:30
  SPEAKER_00: It's been such a blast making this happen.
• 1:33
  SPEAKER_00: It's been really fun introducing our spotlight episodes, which our last spotlight feature was with JT Church.
• 1:39
  SPEAKER_00: So if you haven't had a chance to check that one out, go check it out now.
• 1:42
  SPEAKER_00: It was a really great discussion.
• 1:43
  SPEAKER_00: And it was the first time that we had a dance mom on an episode, which I think was a really cool and unique perspective to have.
• 1:49
  SPEAKER_00: So check out that new feature that we've incorporated.
• 1:51
  SPEAKER_00: We also already hosted our live QA with Courtney episode, which streams on Facebook.
• 1:57
  SPEAKER_00: So you get to have an interactive experience with us where you can actually submit your questions live on the air.
• 2:03
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm typically joined by a guest, which our latest guest was the fabulous Christina Balinski, one of the IDA judges.
• 2:09
  SPEAKER_00: And she got to answer a bunch of fun questions from all of the guests.
• 2:12
  SPEAKER_00: And it's just really fun to have that kind of interactive experience.
• 2:16
  SPEAKER_00: So we will be hosting those every other month as well.
• 2:18
  SPEAKER_00: We'll be going live and then turning those episodes into podcast episodes.
• 2:22
  SPEAKER_00: So be sure to check that feature out as well.
• 2:25
  SPEAKER_00: Our next one is scheduled for December 1st, 2020, in the next few months.
• 2:29
  SPEAKER_00: So stay tuned for that.
• 2:31
  SPEAKER_00: And we've actually hit over 30,000 downloads in our seasons, both seasons combined so far.
• 2:38
  SPEAKER_00: So like a huge achievement.
• 2:39
  SPEAKER_00: Oh my gosh.
• 2:40
  SPEAKER_00: We just can't believe it.
• 2:41
  SPEAKER_00: And it's so exciting to see how it's really hitting worldwide.
• 2:45
  SPEAKER_00: I think I just saw that we reached like Tel Aviv Israel and we're in Australia, South Africa.
• 2:51
  SPEAKER_00: So many places are listening to the podcast, which is so crazy to think.
• 2:55
  SPEAKER_00: So thank you, thank you, thank you to all the listeners for supporting us, for continuing to listen to subscribing on Apple Podcasts.
• 3:02
  SPEAKER_00: You can now listen on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Stitcher, and even Amazon Podcast just came out.
• 3:07
  SPEAKER_00: So definitely go subscribe on there.
• 3:09
  SPEAKER_00: You can probably say, hey Alexa, and listen to your podcast.
• 3:13
  SPEAKER_00: So super fun stuff.
• 3:14
  SPEAKER_00: And um, yeah, we're super grateful for everybody tuning in.
• 3:18
  SPEAKER_03: Yes, and it is time to chat about our amazing sponsor for this season.
• 3:22
  SPEAKER_03: We have several, but I would love to tell you guys about dance costumes by Urzua.
• 3:27
  SPEAKER_03: They offer high-end custom dance costumes and dancewear for everybody.
• 3:31
  SPEAKER_03: Add the wow factor to your performance, impress the audience and the judges at any stage, class, and convention.
• 3:36
  SPEAKER_03: And because dancers come in all shapes and sizes, they deserve high-quality performance dancewear that makes them feel good in their own skin.
• 3:42
  SPEAKER_03: All of their sizes include five variations, slim, narrow, medium, curvy, and wide to fit everybody.
• 3:49
  SPEAKER_03: All the profits from this company go to a dance fund that sponsors young dancers so they can continue with their training.
• 3:54
  SPEAKER_03: So if you use the code IDA15 to receive 15% off of all dancewear and custom costumes at their website, www.dancecostumes byerzua.com.
• 4:04
  SPEAKER_00: Yay, dance costumes by Urzua.
• 4:06
  SPEAKER_00: Definitely check them out.
• 4:07
  SPEAKER_00: If you are prepping your costumes for this season, it's that time of year, so do it.
• 4:11
  SPEAKER_00: Definitely check them out.
• 4:12
  SPEAKER_03: And they also make really, really beautiful masks.
• 4:15
  SPEAKER_03: I just wanted to give a shout-out.
• 4:16
  SPEAKER_00: They love their masks.
• 4:17
  SPEAKER_00: They're rhinestone.
• 4:18
  SPEAKER_03: Rhinestone, they're my special occasion masks.
• 4:20
  SPEAKER_03: So check them out for that also.
• 4:21
  SPEAKER_00: I bet you she can make a mask to complement your costume and rhinestone it if that's something that you need to do this season.
• 4:27
  SPEAKER_00: That's a good thing.
• 4:28
  SPEAKER_03: Done.
• 4:29
  SPEAKER_03: Got it.
• 4:29
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 4:30
  SPEAKER_00: Check it out.
• 4:32
  SPEAKER_00: And another exciting thing is that we've been getting a lot of awesome reviews lately, which you know, we we've relaunched season two at the top of September, and then we've had some, you know, new listeners discover us and leave reviews on Apple Podcasts.
• 4:44
  SPEAKER_00: So if you love what we're doing on the podcast, we would love, love, love to hear from you.
• 4:49
  SPEAKER_00: So head over to Apple Podcast now, rate us, and leave us a review, and we will maybe give you a shout out on the air.
• 4:55
  SPEAKER_00: So this review is coming from Brian Marquise, and he says, I appreciate how everyone respected each other's opinion.
• 5:03
  SPEAKER_00: Nice to hear people you know having productive conversations about the world of dance.
• 5:08
  SPEAKER_00: I'll continue to tune in.
• 5:09
  SPEAKER_00: Yay! Well, thanks.
• 5:11
  SPEAKER_00: I know.
• 5:11
  SPEAKER_00: Thanks so much.
• 5:12
  SPEAKER_00: That's a great little review.
• 5:13
  SPEAKER_00: So if you have one that you'd like to share, definitely head over to Apple Podcasts and leave us a review.
• 5:18
  SPEAKER_00: We'd love to read your review on the air.
• 5:21
  SPEAKER_00: All right, y'all.
• 5:21
  SPEAKER_00: It's time to jump into this fabulous episode discussion all about gender in the classroom and in the dance studio setting.
• 5:29
  SPEAKER_00: And we are joined by two wonderful IDA judges who were previously East Coasters, now turned West Coasters.
• 5:37
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm excited to introduce both of them into onto the podcast because they're brand new to the pod.
• 5:41
  SPEAKER_00: You've never heard them on our podcast in season one.
• 5:44
  SPEAKER_00: We are so excited to welcome Paul Tiemann to the podcast.
• 5:49
  SPEAKER_00: Welcome.
• 5:50
  SPEAKER_00: So happy to have you.
• 5:51
  SPEAKER_04: Thank you so much for having me.
• 5:53
  SPEAKER_04: I'm so excited.
• 5:53
  SPEAKER_04: This is my first podcast experience.
• 5:56
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
• 5:57
  SPEAKER_00: Nice.
• 5:57
  SPEAKER_00: Welcome.
• 5:58
  SPEAKER_00: We always love being people's first podcast experience and interviews and topic discussions.
• 6:03
  SPEAKER_00: So welcome to the pod.
• 6:05
  SPEAKER_00: We hope to have you on more in future topic discussions.
• 6:08
  SPEAKER_00: So since you're new to the pod, feel free to share with all the listeners a little bit about who you are, what you do, any career credits you'd like to share, where you're currently based, and anything you're working on.
• 6:19
  SPEAKER_04: Great.
• 6:19
  SPEAKER_04: Thank you so much for having me.
• 6:20
  SPEAKER_04: I'm so excited and I'm excited to be here with Jeanette as well.
• 6:24
  SPEAKER_04: I, like you said, I am a recent transplant to the West Coast.
• 6:28
  SPEAKER_04: I was based in New York City for the last six years, maybe seven, working primarily in the musical theater world, doing uh national tours like Joseph and the Amazing Technicolor Dream Coat, where I worked with fellow IDA judge Christina Bolinski.
• 6:43
  SPEAKER_00: She's getting lots of shout-outs this episode.
• 6:45
  SPEAKER_04: Right.
• 6:46
  SPEAKER_04: She she deserves them.
• 6:48
  SPEAKER_04: And Finding Neverland, both of those tours, I was the dance captain.
• 6:52
  SPEAKER_04: That's been a predominant experience in my career.
• 6:56
  SPEAKER_04: And with things going on in the world now, I found myself over here and exploring different avenues to express my creative side.
• 7:06
  SPEAKER_04: So that's manifesting in different ways from different types of art projects and personal projects as well.
• 7:11
  SPEAKER_00: Awesome.
• 7:12
  SPEAKER_00: That's great.
• 7:13
  SPEAKER_00: So happy to have you on the pod, Paul.
• 7:15
  SPEAKER_00: Thanks for joining us.
• 7:16
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you.
• 7:17
  SPEAKER_04: Happy to be here.
• 7:18
  SPEAKER_00: All right.
• 7:18
  SPEAKER_00: And next up, our next IDA judge is Jeanette Abel.
• 7:22
  SPEAKER_00: Welcome to the pod.
• 7:24
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you so much.
• 7:25
  SPEAKER_01: It is also my first time ever doing a podcast.
• 7:28
  SPEAKER_01: Nice.
• 7:29
  SPEAKER_01: And I am super thrilled to be doing this with Paul.
• 7:32
  SPEAKER_01: As soon as I saw that he was my co-person, I was very, very excited.
• 7:36
  unknown: Yay!
• 7:38
  SPEAKER_01: So yeah, I'm Jeanette.
• 7:40
  SPEAKER_01: My pronouns are she and her.
• 7:44
  SPEAKER_01: I was living in New York City for the last about four years, uh, dancing, auditioning, participating in philanthropic performances, and of course, going out and doing competitions with IDA and being able to reach young dancers all over the East Coast with the current situation in the world too.
• 8:04
  SPEAKER_01: Like Paul, I found myself coming back over to the West Coast where I have been teaching primarily over Zoom and am just starting to get back into the classroom in very, very small groups of about five, which has been really nice.
• 8:20
  SPEAKER_01: I got my BFA in dance at University of California Irvine back in the day, class of 2010, and had a major emphasis on dance pedagogy while at University of California Irvine and got a minor in education.
• 8:36
  SPEAKER_01: So this subject of gender in the dance classroom is near and dear to my heart.
• 8:41
  SPEAKER_01: I think it's important and I think that it's in constant flux of us implementing it better and more so in every avenue that we can.
• 8:49
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, that's me.
• 8:51
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, awesome.
• 8:52
  SPEAKER_00: We're really excited to talk about this too.
• 8:54
  SPEAKER_00: And I think that we've definitely casted the perfect judges for this discussion.
• 8:59
  SPEAKER_00: So thank you so much to both of you for taking time and joining us today.
• 9:03
  SPEAKER_00: I'm excited.
• 9:03
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, and Paul, so since we we've had Jeanette let us know her pronouns, what are yours?
• 9:08
  SPEAKER_04: Absolutely.
• 9:08
  SPEAKER_04: Thank you so much.
• 9:09
  SPEAKER_04: I completely forgot that was the idea brought forward.
• 9:13
  SPEAKER_04: I honestly consider myself gender playful.
• 9:16
  SPEAKER_04: That's a term I've created myself.
• 9:17
  SPEAKER_04: So I am cool with whatever pronouns you would like to use.
• 9:21
  SPEAKER_04: I embrace them all.
• 9:23
  SPEAKER_04: I think they're all lovely and joyous.
• 9:25
  SPEAKER_04: Gender playful.
• 9:26
  SPEAKER_03: That is so fun.
• 9:27
  SPEAKER_00: Never heard it, and I love it.
• 9:28
  SPEAKER_00: I love that you created that.
• 9:29
  SPEAKER_03: It's fabulous.
• 9:30
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 9:31
  SPEAKER_03: As Courtney says, I think we, you know, we took into account, you know, the the way we cast these podcast guests are allowing our guests to sort of have a say in what they'd like to do and and what they would like to talk about.
• 9:42
  SPEAKER_03: And, you know, we try to pick accordingly based on what we know about them and their background.
• 9:46
  SPEAKER_03: And so, you know, you guys really stood out to us when you chose that this was kind of one of your favorite topics that you wanted to speak about.
• 9:52
  SPEAKER_03: So we're happy to have you here.
• 9:54
  SPEAKER_03: And so I guess starting, Janet, I'd love to start with you.
• 9:57
  SPEAKER_03: And, you know, since you do have a bit of a background in education, maybe ness not necessarily dance, obviously dance, but like along the other route of just general education.
• 10:06
  SPEAKER_03: How important do you feel about introducing a gender-neutral approach into any sort of classroom?
• 10:13
  SPEAKER_03: I guess let's go sort of broad first.
• 10:16
  SPEAKER_01: I do think that it is very important.
• 10:18
  SPEAKER_01: And I think that you can start it uh as early as possible, truly.
• 10:23
  SPEAKER_01: It's never too early to try to adopt some of those better practices, especially because young kids often, other than the cornerstones of Adance Foundation, which I would consider to be coordination, basic coordination, rhythm, and you know, getting into sequencing, memory of steps, we have to take into account that young kids are building associations constantly.
• 10:51
  SPEAKER_01: And so that work can never ever begin too soon, in my opinion.
• 10:56
  SPEAKER_01: And I think that the North Star in trying to build an inclusive and you know, a good space for for multi-gender identification should be care and trying to allow uh your students to know that that that is at the root of what you're there to do.
• 11:19
  SPEAKER_01: You're teaching them, you know, how to be how to be human.
• 11:24
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 11:24
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 11:24
  SPEAKER_03: And that humans have all sorts of interests and ways of expressing themselves and, you know, things that they enjoy that, you know, don't necessarily fit into a box where as human beings, I think historically, like our brains want those boxes.
• 11:40
  SPEAKER_03: They want those categories to understand where we all fit in.
• 11:44
  SPEAKER_03: And I think sometimes, you know, especially when you're speaking about the younger children and in dance class, you know, that that becomes not necessarily a cop-out, but like it is a very easy way for a toddler pre-K kind of a dance teacher to put things into boxes.
• 11:58
  SPEAKER_03: It is probably more of a challenge, but but a worthy challenge to kind of expand that aspect of your teaching.
• 12:07
  SPEAKER_04: Echoing off of the importance of that, I think one thing that is common is dance in any cultural art form is so reflective of the society it lives within.
• 12:16
  SPEAKER_04: And lucky for us, we're living in a time and age of the gender revolution.
• 12:21
  SPEAKER_04: So it is, I believe, our job as people who share and pass on this joy of this art form to keep up with the times and uh try and let the culture inside the dance studio reflect the culture outside.
• 12:37
  SPEAKER_04: And part of that is this broadening uh knowledge and awareness of the full complexity and beauty of the gender spectrum and uh making sure any dancer that comes into the studio is comfortable.
• 12:51
  SPEAKER_04: And I think it starts with education and awareness and making it a conscious effort.
• 12:56
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, 100%.
• 12:58
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I I agree, and I I really love what everything that you both said, and I think that's something that's really important for us as dance educators and especially teachers who who definitely teach some of the more creative movement and younger dance styles at the studio is to, like you said, Jeanette, really don't be afraid to introduce that early.
• 13:20
  SPEAKER_00: But I think that at school and in the regular school format, I I'm hoping that there are is some progress being made in in that way as well.
• 13:29
  SPEAKER_00: But at least we as dance educators, or if you are a studio owner, you can start incorporating that and implementing that into your students' uh classroom at a young age so they can really kind of discover themselves and be taught to have this, you know, different perspective of what you might be hearing differently at school or you know, and make making dance, the classroom for dance be a very safe place for you to be exactly who you want to be and not be put into a box if that's not what you, you know, feel.
• 14:01
  SPEAKER_00: So I think that the quicker we introduce that to the younger dancers and younger kids in general across the board is is just so helpful for their self-discovery as they continue to get older.
• 14:13
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 14:13
  SPEAKER_03: And I think one of the things that I think may feel like a barrier that I'm hoping that maybe we can provide some suggestions for any teachers out there who are maybe struggling with how to implement some of these things is, you know, something as simple as changing your dress code of, you know, to not say, okay, well, you're mandated children to wear a pink leotard and pink tights when you're in the four to five-year-old class.
• 14:34
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 14:35
  SPEAKER_03: You know, what other options are there?
• 14:36
  SPEAKER_03: How, you know, if if the goal of being in a dance class is to, yes, sure, look uniform if if that's the kind of studio you're going to, but there's ways to make that happen without creating a gendered construct around what you put on your body.
• 14:49
  SPEAKER_03: Right.
• 14:49
  SPEAKER_03: You know.
• 14:49
  SPEAKER_00: And I think that gets hard even too.
• 14:52
  SPEAKER_00: I think 100%.
• 14:53
  SPEAKER_00: I I understand that there may be address codes, and depending on like what level dancer you're at, if you're on the competition team, you might have to all have the same leotard or, you know, whatever it is.
• 15:03
  SPEAKER_00: But I also think that especially for more of our rec, for more of our dance classes like eight and under, where they just want to come and have fun and just live their best life in dance class and skip around and shuffle ball change.
• 15:15
  SPEAKER_00: Like let them wear whatever they want, regardless of of you know, how you think they might identify gender-wise, you know.
• 15:23
  SPEAKER_00: I heard of many young boy dancers or male dancers come and want to just wear a dress to dance.
• 15:30
  SPEAKER_00: And like, absolutely, please feel free to wear your dress to dance.
• 15:33
  SPEAKER_00: If that's how you want to express yourself and feel comfortable and that's going to make you enjoy class to its fullest potential.
• 15:39
  SPEAKER_00: I don't think we should restrict, you know, those dancers.
• 15:41
  SPEAKER_00: And then if there is some sort of dress code where you're you're trying to navigate the best approach with that, you know, I think that there are different discussions on how we can navigate that in the dress code world.
• 15:50
  SPEAKER_00: But I also think that the hard thing with navigating this, probably for teachers, is also costuming for the stage as well when it comes to those things.
• 15:58
  SPEAKER_00: I think that's definitely difficult.
• 15:59
  SPEAKER_00: But I don't want it to be, you know.
• 16:01
  SPEAKER_00: I want, I think that we can incorporate more, I don't know if neutral is the right word, but costumes that complement each dancer and aren't singling anyone out in any uncomfortable way.
• 16:14
  SPEAKER_00: You know, I've loved when I've seen all genders on stage and everyone's wearing the same thing.
• 16:19
  SPEAKER_00: I'm happy with that.
• 16:20
  SPEAKER_00: I don't need a separate costume for the male identifying dancer or you know what I mean?
• 16:25
  SPEAKER_00: You know, I think we can explore those options a little bit more as we're creating.
• 16:29
  SPEAKER_01: I agree.
• 16:30
  SPEAKER_01: And I think that within the classroom, teachers can take a moment of introspection to ask themselves, why is it that I enforce uh a dress code?
• 16:41
  SPEAKER_01: Is it is it so that I can see lines of the body?
• 16:44
  SPEAKER_01: Is it because I'm trying to teach these these kids how to, you know, exist in a uniform costume environment?
• 16:52
  SPEAKER_01: You know, we can we can start looking at these things and recognizing that maybe those don't need to be things that are enforced.
• 17:01
  SPEAKER_01: I as an adult dancer can feel an entirely different way if I head into a class in an outfit that I feel I look awesome in versus an outfit that I'm concerned about, you know, maybe something's jiggling here or something is feeling like it's exposing something here, or or I I just don't necessarily vibe with that, you know, that combination of clothing and it throws off my mojo in class.
• 17:28
  SPEAKER_01: You know, it's fashion is a form of self-expression, which goes along with gender identity.
• 17:34
  SPEAKER_01: And so we have to make choices where if you're wanting options where you can still see your dancers' lines and maybe we're we're going with the color code so that it's not just like an array of colors and um distractions for for your eyes, but maybe allowing it so so that people can still express and feel great and dance their best and be their best self in your environment.
• 17:59
  SPEAKER_01: I think that that's crucial, actually.
• 18:00
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I think that's wonderful.
• 18:02
  SPEAKER_04: I agree with that.
• 18:03
  SPEAKER_04: And also I think paired very closely to this topic is an extremely important lesson I think inside the studio and outside the studio that we should impart on dancers of any age.
• 18:14
  SPEAKER_04: And that lesson is you are the master of your body.
• 18:19
  SPEAKER_04: It is your authority to say what is okay for you and nobody else's.
• 18:24
  SPEAKER_04: And I think we can encourage that through this similar conversation of exactly what Jeanette was mentioning.
• 18:30
  SPEAKER_04: Like, does this feel comfortable for you?
• 18:32
  SPEAKER_04: Are you able to perform and uh get the training that you are after within what is being uh put forth in terms of a dress code or anything like that?
• 18:42
  SPEAKER_04: And I think we can't stray away from having those conversations, you know, no matter what age, you can talk to a human and say, does like even from the age of three, we have an understanding of what we are comfortable with and what we are not comfortable with.
• 18:56
  SPEAKER_04: And we can have that conversation in safe environments, and I think that's the job as educators, as studio owners, people in those leadership positions is to be okay with establishing that dialogue and having those conversations with the dancer and with their family if the dancer isn't comfortable doing it one-on-one.
• 19:14
  SPEAKER_04: I think that's that's on that's on us, and it's totally within the realm of possibility and easy to do.
• 19:21
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, and so necessary.
• 19:22
  SPEAKER_03: You brought up a good point of like you're the master of your own body.
• 19:26
  SPEAKER_03: And I remember seeing uh several years ago in one of the forums, one of the dance forums on Facebook, a conversation of, you know, well, I don't want my dancers to wear sports bras, but they're not allowed to wear sports bras to class.
• 19:38
  SPEAKER_03: Coming from a person who had to wear sports bras to feel comfortable to go to dance class, I went off on these people.
• 19:45
  SPEAKER_03: And and I think Jeanette, you made a good point of, you know, as a teacher, you have to examine why you want to enforce these certain traditional dress codes.
• 19:54
  SPEAKER_03: And if your only reason is that it's tradition, you know, it's a gender revolution.
• 19:58
  SPEAKER_03: There's a lot of revolution.
• 19:59
  SPEAKER_03: I'm to reevaluate.
• 20:00
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 20:01
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, because it like, listen, it took me a long time to even feel comfortable in a costume, you know, just on a stage without all of the extra stuff that made me feel comfortable.
• 20:11
  SPEAKER_03: And and it's very difficult to for me to hear somebody say, you know, well, you can't do this and you can't do that just because I want you to look a certain way.
• 20:19
  SPEAKER_03: I just don't think it's the world we live in anymore.
• 20:21
  SPEAKER_03: It's not fair and it's not equitable.
• 20:24
  SPEAKER_04: All of that just made me think of uh I started dancing very young and I was so heavy when I started dancing.
• 20:30
  SPEAKER_04: And I just recall so vividly my first recital experience.
• 20:34
  SPEAKER_04: In one way it was great because they did put me in like the exact same costume as everyone else, but I remember being so uncomfortable because there was no male presence in the studio that I was able to confide in or talk to about even basics of like wearing a dance belt.
• 20:52
  SPEAKER_04: And how do you how do you it was such a foreign experience being put on stage in a in a unitard, being very uncomfortable with my size, and I remember vividly not enjoying that experience so much because I was so distracted by all of my my insecurities and just the fact that I I never had the opportunity to express that concern.
• 21:16
  SPEAKER_04: Right, or those issues.
• 21:17
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 21:18
  SPEAKER_00: And I think that there's probably a lot of dancers who are currently feeling those exact same feelings right now that you felt when you were a young dancer, Paul.
• 21:26
  SPEAKER_00: And you know, it is it is hard to navigate that.
• 21:29
  SPEAKER_00: And I I agree.
• 21:30
  SPEAKER_00: I feel like, you know, obviously the majority of dancers in the world are predominantly female identifying, and usually there are a few there if you're lucky you have a few male identifying dancers in your studio, which, you know, bless you.
• 21:46
  SPEAKER_00: And yes, that's awesome.
• 21:47
  SPEAKER_00: But like I can only imagine what that would feel like not having any anyone else that can really go to.
• 21:53
  SPEAKER_00: You know, if you if you do have another male dancer that's alongside you that you can kind of navigate this with, but it does kind of in a way make you feel a little bit like an outcast and in that sense where you're you can't really ask those questions.
• 22:06
  SPEAKER_00: Who do you who can you confide to?
• 22:08
  SPEAKER_00: Like who can I discuss this with?
• 22:10
  SPEAKER_00: These are things that we that you wanted to navigate and learn yourself.
• 22:14
  SPEAKER_00: And and even just hearing hearing your you know perspective of the whole costume thing and like although yes I was in the same costume as everyone else and I liked that, it still wasn't a costume that made you feel your best.
• 22:26
  SPEAKER_00: And not even speaking in the gender perspective at this moment, I think that that's just a important thing to hear where there's so many times that I've seen dancers just I can tell they are uncomfortable on stage specifically in the costume that they were given.
• 22:41
  SPEAKER_00: And that's never what we want to do as a teacher even if it's in the trend right now to like wear a leotard with no tights or whatever, you know, we're getting on the costume thing.
• 22:50
  SPEAKER_00: But like you know, our goal as teachers is to make our dancers feel their best at all times.
• 22:55
  SPEAKER_00: And you know, I think I think that can be applied a little bit more.
• 22:59
  SPEAKER_00: I I'd hope to see that a little bit more.
• 23:02
  SPEAKER_01: I think that that goes hand in hand with what I was going to say about being introspective about what are considerably traditions in in the dance studio and the fact that and and this is a bit of a a leaf from feminist pedagogy in general but that the the female perspective in education is to is to create an environment of care in which it it fosters being receptive being relatable and being responsive.
• 23:36
  SPEAKER_01: And if you can open yourself up to communication with with your kids, with your parents with your dancers to to be all of those things, I think that you'll end up inevitably questioning a lot of what has been traditional in to be frank in in a training system that is designed to deliver children to the patriarchy in a way yes 100% maybe maybe that's getting maybe that's getting a little too on the nose but yeah you're you're not wrong.
• 24:07
  SPEAKER_01: But when you when you think of training regiments and the way that a patriarchal system thinks about how we how we educate and develop our children it's uh you're preparing them to be part of the workforce you're preparing them to be productive and the feminist pedagogy kind of goes we need a good balance here of training.
• 24:27
  SPEAKER_01: We do want our children to be useful but we also want them to be like well adjusted and compassionate human beings that have the facility to review things that don't make other humans feel seen.
• 24:42
  SPEAKER_04: That is that is so funny thinking about this topic before the podcast and the questions that's one thing I kind of really landed on was just the I think we fall it's it's lazy I think and I can't tell you how many times as a a young male identifying dancer I was just given the note to be more masculine.
• 25:03
  SPEAKER_04: Generally generally just like be more be more like dance like a man or it's such a blanket describer.
• 25:13
  SPEAKER_04: There there are so many interpretations and not even just in the studio in the world culturally like what does that mean even to be feminine like that has so much gray area.
• 25:23
  SPEAKER_04: So I think again it's our job and we need to take on a more emotional and expressive intelligence of what are you really trying to to communicate to this dancer when you're saying be more masculine do you mean be like lift your chest be proud is there a certain level of strength or type of strength you're trying to pull out of that dancer and likewise in terms of like being feminine what does that mean?
• 25:48
  SPEAKER_04: Are you trying to round their lines?
• 25:50
  SPEAKER_04: Are you trying to make the quality of their movement more delicate?
• 25:53
  SPEAKER_03: Accentual shapes etc Yeah there's so many more descriptive ways to say what you mean when you just say be more this like and there it's it's more effective.
• 26:04
  SPEAKER_03: Right.
• 26:04
  SPEAKER_04: It's more effective because it's being specific and not relying on this blanket statement term that has just been embraced in a in a gender binary society.
• 26:15
  SPEAKER_01: And over time would have the capacity to transcend those associations for young kids of gender being associated with certain adjectives or actions.
• 26:33
  SPEAKER_00: Hey studio owner are you looking for team spirit gear that will stand out look no further than Jake Nothing.
• 26:39
  SPEAKER_00: Jake Nothing is not your ordinary catalog brand.
• 26:42
  SPEAKER_00: Each piece is designed according to you.
• 26:44
  SPEAKER_00: I've seen some of the teams walking around the competition in their stuff and it's a total standout.
• 26:49
  SPEAKER_00: Want tie-dye?
• 26:50
  SPEAKER_00: They've got it team jackets and joggers they've got it leggings, sports bras, t-shirts, they will have you covered from head to toe.
• 26:57
  SPEAKER_00: Everything is fashionforward and unique so you can guarantee you won't look like every other studio out there.
• 27:02
  SPEAKER_00: Their team of designers will work with you to come up with the perfect look.
• 27:06
  SPEAKER_00: Head on over to JakeNothing.com and click on custom to get started.
• 27:10
  SPEAKER_00: And now back to the show.
• 27:17
  SPEAKER_03: And this is such a beautiful segue into my next question and our next kind of section so we've already kind of covered the look you know the costuming and the clothing and all of that but so now let's really dive deep into the movement of you know what how how do we go about degenderizing specific movement when traditionally you know this was the way it was for women in ballet from the 1600s.
• 27:45
  SPEAKER_03: And then now here we are in 2020 and things are not the same anymore.
• 27:49
  SPEAKER_01: Working in getting rid of gendered movement, you you automatically would have to revert to more of movement quality types of descriptors on the regular right and like Paul had mentioned it it can feel it can feel lazy to just sort of slap on a blanket term of make that more masculine or make this, you know, can you make this a little bit more feminine over here or there are better ways to get the the type of movement out of your dancers and to not build those associations.
• 28:24
  SPEAKER_01: Saying something like I I'd love to see you really make a stopping point in this shape and see a lot of muscle engagement here.
• 28:31
  SPEAKER_01: That would that would be nice and then you can transition out or or being being able to accentuate a curve or a shape for women or for a more female stylistic shape.
• 28:43
  SPEAKER_01: I think that I think that there is a lot of verbiage that can be used in place of those things.
• 28:51
  SPEAKER_04: And I think as much as the tradition or the culture may argue for it, I I believe like it's movement.
• 28:59
  SPEAKER_04: It doesn't have a gender it is it is the way we are moving our bodies through space and I think it's a discredit to us as artists to limit that and say because you are uh a dancer who was born with these these parts you know so therefore that's going to dictate the rest of your life how you are able to move your body and express yourself through movement.
• 29:23
  SPEAKER_04: That's so debilitating and I think no matter where you stand on gender identity and your comfort level with it, I think you can set that aside and come at it more of a perspective of as an educator, I want to equip these dancers to be the most well-rounded versatile performers.
• 29:44
  SPEAKER_04: So I don't want to adopt anything that's going to limit that exploration and development.
• 29:50
  SPEAKER_04: And no matter what, a dancer's going to interact or come across a situation where it will benefit them.
• 29:56
  SPEAKER_04: Even as a male dancer and being a dance captain, it's important for me to understand the mechanics and the challenges of both parts of a scenario in terms of a lift, in terms of partnering it's only going to help me do my job better if I have a working and experiential knowledge of that.
• 30:15
  SPEAKER_04: So that way when I then have to go tell a girl who's getting lifted in the air, I I say I've done this through experience and this is what's helped me.
• 30:24
  SPEAKER_04: And here are the things and it's not notes of like think about being a dainty lady.
• 30:29
  SPEAKER_04: It's no it's like holding lighter it's just like you can engage your core you can apply pressure and counterpressure and and vice versa in terms of if I'm being lifted I having lifted other people I know if you do this this might help me hold the picture a little bit better and different ways to engage is I think again it's coming back to we need to be comfortable having dialogues and then being free in exploring all aspects of the movement from any angle for every person.
• 31:01
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 31:02
  SPEAKER_00: Beautifully articulated yes I I agree with everything that you just said Paul and I feel like I'm really glad that we're kind of discussing this in in kind of you led us into like a professional career kind of advice situation, which I'm happy that we're going there because I agree that movement in the classroom and especially as we're growing up and we're navigating through life and we're discovering ourselves as who we are, regardless of your gender or how you're identifying, I think it is extremely important to discover all of those different movement qualities, like you said, Jeanette, in you know what does being soft and and delicate mean to being what does strong and sharp and athletic mean?
• 31:42
  SPEAKER_00: And not associating that specifically with a gender identity because we will need to know how to navigate those things if you do decide to go the professional route.
• 31:53
  SPEAKER_00: You don't know what the job will in entail.
• 31:56
  SPEAKER_00: You don't know what position you might be having to represent something that comes offhand for me, I know and Paul, you and I both did Finding Neverlands, all of the ensemble members were very interchangeable at times between the male or female roles.
• 32:15
  SPEAKER_00: So which I that was actually one of like the first experiences in the professional world for me where it's like oh well ensemble member number one can also which is an a a female identifying dancer can also be covering ensemble number two which is a male identifying dancer.
• 32:32
  SPEAKER_00: And oh we just slightly switched the costume around or you know whatever it is.
• 32:37
  SPEAKER_00: But it was very interesting for me to experience that for the first time and especially we all have been in New York and pursued things in New York whether it's musical theater, a concert dance or whatever.
• 32:47
  SPEAKER_00: But especially in like the musical theater Broadway direction, it's very much male and female most of the time.
• 32:54
  SPEAKER_00: And I think again that goes back to tradition and that goes back to Broadway's been around forever.
• 32:59
  SPEAKER_00: Sometimes we're reviving shows that are very different than what the current world is that we're living in now.
• 33:05
  SPEAKER_00: But some new shows that are kind of popping in an example like Finding Neverland are trying to be a little bit more innovative.
• 33:11
  SPEAKER_03: There was another ECC recently that had all genders together which was so rare too it's like I love going I always auditioned for Westside Story but would audition for anybody's so I always got to dance with the boys and it was the best because I identify as a female who dances like a quote unquote boy.
• 33:29
  SPEAKER_03: Like that's I'm strong and low to the ground and fierce and all the things and athletic yeah the one time I went to a girls call I was like this is terrible.
• 33:36
  SPEAKER_03: I don't want to be here like dance like this.
• 33:38
  SPEAKER_03: You know so an easy with everybody.
• 33:41
  SPEAKER_00: How beautiful is that it's it's lovely to be inspired by how everyone moves together and and differently in their own ways.
• 33:49
  SPEAKER_00: And I think that's that's important to discover as well as professionals and as we're growing up together to really be inspired by everyone's different movement quality.
• 33:58
  SPEAKER_00: I think it really comes down to movement quality because there may be a choreographer in your life whether you're in a competitive studio or in a professional world or you're in college dance that might expect those descriptive terms that we've been kind of laying out as far as this is a girly move and this is a move that boys would do, like not labeling them as that, but knowing what the difference is and how to provide that to the choreographer properly.
• 34:23
  SPEAKER_00: I think that's the main thing that a lot of teachers struggle with in in that sense because they we always think about like well in the professional dance career like you're gonna need to know how to dance masculine and you're gonna need to know how to dance feminine.
• 34:35
  SPEAKER_00: And it's like no, we can teach that without putting that label label on there.
• 34:39
  SPEAKER_00: And I think it's just a matter of remembering how to approach that.
• 34:43
  SPEAKER_03: And it takes time.
• 34:44
  SPEAKER_03: I think that's what that's what I want to really stress to anybody who's listening you know any this is a massive shift.
• 34:50
  SPEAKER_03: It's a cultural shift it has has more to do with the world than just the dance world.
• 34:56
  SPEAKER_03: And it will take time and it will take messing up and being wrong and apologizing and trying again and you know we all just have to give ourselves some grace for that you know because I I keep thinking of one of my favorite baby ballerina songs it my mother has used it for years at her studio shout out to Miss Brenda.
• 35:14
  SPEAKER_03: It's called Pretty Little Girl in a pretty little costume.
• 35:17
  SPEAKER_03: Oh and it's precious and it's just the most precious little thing in the world but if you but there's so many other things we can do for baby ballerina class tiny movers class.
• 35:27
  SPEAKER_03: We can all be flowers we can be you know marshmallows I don't know pick a thing like we can pick a thing and it's so precious a genderless thing.
• 35:35
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah and it's just it's one of those traditional things that just sticks in my mind of like hmm that is really really cute but what else is there?
• 35:42
  SPEAKER_03: Because there's always something else.
• 35:44
  SPEAKER_04: Yep.
• 35:45
  SPEAKER_04: And I think that touches on so many different things in terms of like studio recitals and competitions and it's just kind of I I mean I remember being so upset that like being the only boy in a recital piece is just like I understand I'm the only boy so like I I would there I'd be put in situations where it's like to balance the picture I would be placed at center and I was just at that point in my trajectory and ability I was like I don't know if I should be you know it's there there are dancers who've been doing this much longer who could lead this picture but just because I'm perceived as a boy like to for balance I I think that's one we can start to easily put into practice of freeing ourselves of that.
• 36:31
  SPEAKER_04: But also in terms of just class I know there's this tradition especially in ballet across the floor you let the girls go first and the boys finish.
• 36:39
  SPEAKER_04: But I was in a studio where and it wasn't even intentional but we had one girl who could just leap like the Dickens like she could jump so high.
• 36:50
  SPEAKER_04: And our teacher intentionally had me and the only other male dancer in that class at the time do across the floor leaps with her to try and keep up.
• 36:59
  SPEAKER_04: And I think that's that's what we can do.
• 37:02
  SPEAKER_04: Going more off of a dancer's ability and facility and passion and let that be explored and used to further dancers in their training and not base it off of their appearance or their gender.
• 37:17
  SPEAKER_04: She could dance the highest so to encourage other dancers we had to try and keep up with her regardless of the fact that she was a girl.
• 37:24
  SPEAKER_04: I think that's such an easy thing.
• 37:26
  SPEAKER_01: It is and thinking too uh at competitions when when we are giving critiques and it comes down to the very tiny and tends to be majority little girls category that the majority of what we see on the stage inevitably ends up being very cutesy you know little uh little feminine dances.
• 37:50
  SPEAKER_01: And the thing I always try to hold myself accountable for when I'm trying to give feedback for these tiny tiny young girls and boys and anybody's um is that there's more to the to the feedback than the validating them in the in the forever repeating loop of you're so cute, uh you're so adorable and being like, you know, you can offer them something more to the effect of I love how you remember your dance so well.
• 38:20
  SPEAKER_01: I can tell that you have practiced and that you have sequenced this and your transitions are starting to really look nice like what a high jump.
• 38:28
  SPEAKER_01: You know there's just there's so much more that we can that we can touch on.
• 38:33
  SPEAKER_01: But also to that effect wouldn't it be nice to see that mold broken a little bit more often and and like Leslie was saying giving them opportunities to explore different movement qualities or roles maybe maybe you give them a dance where they get to be a wildcat and dance to some kind of jungle boots.
• 38:54
  SPEAKER_01: You know I don't need to just see the same cutesy boop routine for these little girls a hundred times and and you can you can push kids at that age still to to diversify their movement.
• 39:06
  SPEAKER_01: It's it's never too early.
• 39:08
  SPEAKER_03: And I think as choreographers, I mean I know I for one, I really fall into the the trap and the ease of choreographing cute and hip bumps and you know very like traditionally feminine movement because I feel I feel comfortable choreographing that way.
• 39:21
  SPEAKER_03: But like what a challenge and what a great way to challenge yourself is if you find that coming into your body you're like no I'm gonna go to the opposite feeling and what does that create you know because I think that is also a fear of some people is like no you know I do this well.
• 39:36
  SPEAKER_03: I want to keep doing this but that's also a limiting way to do things.
• 39:40
  SPEAKER_01: Well it's it's an interesting thing to think about too that potentially parents who put their who put their child in dance maybe want to see their child fulfill uh certain certain roles of of doing certain kinds of dancing.
• 39:56
  SPEAKER_01: And so it it kind of it all cycles back to what Paul had originally mentioned about reflecting the society that we do exist in and with the current pop culture indoctrinations and our and our education system majority of our culture is going to you know move over towards the more traditional they'll want to consume and they are more comfortable seeing that more traditional paradigm.
• 40:23
  SPEAKER_01: And so to start to get people to see that there are other options is is huge.
• 40:30
  SPEAKER_04: And I think bouncing off of that this is another thing I was thinking about along this topic and this is coming from my perspective again as a male identified dancer growing up my examples of any kind of exploration where male dancers got to do non-traditional male roles it was always through the layer or through the veil of comedy and I think that is slightly damaging to this effort because what that's implying is this is unnatural.
• 40:57
  SPEAKER_04: Right which is funny this isn't right exactly and like we can all think of like the most classic example of Mother Ginger usually being a drag role in the Nutcracker.
• 41:07
  SPEAKER_04: And yes it works in that comedic effect but if that's the only example what is that what is that saying to a a young dancer and I think that instills a fear that if I do begin to explore this other type of movement I will be laughed at.
• 41:22
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
• 41:22
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 41:23
  SPEAKER_01: When the the juncture of this conversation is amidst the the thought of training for the real world you'll often get parents in studio settings who are like or who will agree with the notion that well my my kid needs to learn gender specific movement in order to get work in order to you know be hireable but just to backtrack as to why that's not necessarily true it's it's the whole movement quality conversation and that if you can teach a dancer to be to be diverse and aware and moldable uh then they'll be able to slip a style on like a costume you know they'll be able to apply a style as a technique at any time on command.
• 42:06
  SPEAKER_01: And that's that's what you want for your dancers anyway.
• 42:09
  SPEAKER_01: You want them to be moldable and diverse and hireable.
• 42:12
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah I think that's a really great point that you brought up and and I do also want to mention in that sense that it depends on the path that you want to go as a professional if that's what you want to pursue.
• 42:23
  SPEAKER_00: I think we all know ourselves best and we know what suits us.
• 42:27
  SPEAKER_00: We know what style suits us you know we've we've said that all the time before I think we've even talked about it on the podcast in a previous episode I rem I feel like we have where we're just like I know that I'm not gonna go to this audition because I'm not right for that.
• 42:41
  SPEAKER_00: And I think that can definitely be applied depending on you know let's say that you are a male identifying dancer but you really like fluid soft movement and that's that's your movement quality that's what you love.
• 42:54
  SPEAKER_00: That's what inspires you and you don't always want to be put into those masculine roles that you know you don't feel comfortable in.
• 43:03
  SPEAKER_00: That's totally okay and absolutely you can do that.
• 43:07
  SPEAKER_00: You can have a career pursuing that that route.
• 43:11
  SPEAKER_00: Now on the back end you know you know I hope that you would know or whoever this dancer is going into that that you may be limiting and restricting yourself a bit from other opportunities because of that.
• 43:21
  SPEAKER_00: But that's your own choice and that's you know that's what makes you happy.
• 43:24
  SPEAKER_00: As professional dancers, we always have a choice.
• 43:26
  SPEAKER_00: It's the jobs don't come to us.
• 43:28
  SPEAKER_00: We go to the jobs.
• 43:29
  SPEAKER_00: So you know if that's something that makes you uncomfortable where oh I wouldn't like doing this, then don't go to that job.
• 43:35
  SPEAKER_00: You know, you get to choose your own path when you do decide to pursue it.
• 43:39
  SPEAKER_00: And it's just a matter of if you're okay with with accepting that you may be limited to you know more opportunities.
• 43:46
  SPEAKER_00: But if you're versatile in all of those movement styles, then it's only going to help you get more jobs and get more have more success in in a professional career.
• 43:54
  SPEAKER_00: So it's just a matter of the path that you want to choose to go.
• 43:57
  SPEAKER_00: And I think that's important too because we're not saying that That even as just like as male identifying dancers, that you're not allowed to dance, quote unquote, feminine.
• 44:05
  SPEAKER_00: You're that's that's you know, frowned upon.
• 44:08
  SPEAKER_00: Absolutely not.
• 44:09
  SPEAKER_00: You know, there are so many roles and jobs.
• 44:12
  SPEAKER_00: I'm just thinking Broadway off the top of my head, but so many roles that we want that.
• 44:16
  SPEAKER_00: That's what they are looking for.
• 44:17
  SPEAKER_00: And there's dancers that can do that, and there's dancers that can't, you know?
• 44:21
  SPEAKER_00: So speaking on the professional side, that's kind of where my mind goes.
• 44:25
  SPEAKER_00: I I want you to feel the most comfortable and and only do the roles and shows and jobs and styles of dance that you want to do and you have that freedom once you become an adult.
• 44:36
  SPEAKER_00: I think that we don't have as much freedom in that sense when we're in a studio setting, when our teacher is saying, you have to do this, you know.
• 44:42
  SPEAKER_00: But I hope that the teachers, obviously, we hope to know our students best and expose them to all of these different styles, but also and movement qualities, but also make them feel comfortable.
• 44:51
  SPEAKER_00: I think it always comes back to that, making them feel like they're in a safe place, that they're, you know, comfortable on stage or in the classroom setting.
• 44:57
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, making them aware that you care.
• 45:00
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 45:00
  SPEAKER_00: This is something that I'm I'm curious to hear everyone's perspective in.
• 45:03
  SPEAKER_00: And I think that it's something that feels very traditional in the sense that there are often times where if we do have female identifying dancers in the room and male identifying dancers in the room, that the teacher or choreographer may feel obligated to switch that specific step to cater to that gender and also say, okay, well, the girls are going to do this and the boys are gonna do this.
• 45:23
  SPEAKER_00: What are your thoughts on that approach?
• 45:25
  SPEAKER_00: And do you feel like that it's something that should be continued or gradually be eliminated in the classroom setting?
• 45:31
  SPEAKER_00: Or an alternative way to go about it?
• 45:34
  SPEAKER_01: I feel that the greatest alternative to that, and and I I think I would probably like to see that not necessarily continue on at this point, because the the alternative to that is to give a framework of however many counts or whatever that step is, and then say something to the extent of do this or fulfill this as it feels best on your body.
• 46:00
  SPEAKER_01: And that should that should be it.
• 46:02
  SPEAKER_01: That's it, that's all it needs to be.
• 46:04
  SPEAKER_04: I agree, and I but I I will also say, I guess somewhat as a devil's advocate, that I under I think professionally working, like as a choreographer, having to take into mind that, and this is coming from like a theater background, but I think it it applies also in concert dance as well as you have to take into consideration things like costume and things that may be out of your control.
• 46:24
  SPEAKER_04: I know that's been the reason that I've made adjustments like that because I understand, like if a girl is doing all of this in a set of shoes that is not really appropriate, then I need I need to be flexible in that, in that regard, so that I'm not putting that dancer at risk.
• 46:40
  SPEAKER_04: Whereas if the men don't have that same constriction, then playing with that.
• 46:44
  SPEAKER_04: And also, and then also that's it also comes into like I think that starts to dip into like choreographic artistic expression.
• 46:52
  SPEAKER_04: Are we going for uniform or are we embracing variety in this moment?
• 46:57
  SPEAKER_04: And I think kind of what Jeanette hinted at at the beginning is just no matter what, always take taking a moment to pause and reflect on what is our intention, what is our goal, and will doing this help further us toward that intention or goal?
• 47:13
  SPEAKER_04: And if not, being okay with changing it or addressing it and not again, just not letting these associations and confinements of gender play don't even let that be a factor.
• 47:25
  SPEAKER_04: Let it be the other things that we get to play with as artists.
• 47:30
  SPEAKER_01: Gender just doesn't need to steer so much anymore.
• 47:34
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I I feel like I I know for a fact that I've been guilty of and that's why I wanted to hear your guys' perspective.
• 47:40
  SPEAKER_00: I've been guilty previously, years before, making those suggestions in class as far as all right, ladies, well, you guys do this, and this is like a hip roll, which would be labeled as a feminine move.
• 47:53
  SPEAKER_00: And hey boys, can you just do like this instead?
• 47:56
  SPEAKER_00: And um make some fists, you know, just put your fists on your head.
• 47:59
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, do a fist and still limiting.
• 48:02
  SPEAKER_04: It is, and like God, I so many situations like that, so many.
• 48:06
  SPEAKER_04: And I was like, I just want to roll my head.
• 48:08
  SPEAKER_00: And I think that that I think that the the hard thing as educators, again, we're speaking more in a younger 18 and under, still student, still in the classroom style, because we as teachers, it's a fine line in the sense that we want you to know both options, but we want you to also do which one feels best.
• 48:29
  SPEAKER_00: So in a way, it's like, how do when do we put our foot down to say, well, I actually want you to show me that style of it because I want to make sure that you're doing it properly.
• 48:38
  SPEAKER_00: And so I can make sure that that one's solid before we choose the other option.
• 48:42
  SPEAKER_00: Because if you give, if you give an option to choose, they might always gravitate to the one.
• 48:47
  SPEAKER_00: And that's okay.
• 48:48
  SPEAKER_00: But I think, I think the hard part is knowing that when we do advance to the professional world, we have to know both.
• 48:55
  SPEAKER_00: And I think that's where the line is hard to kind of navigate as educators because we don't know what's right as and again, you know, I think that a majority of of studios are are hoping that we are teaching our dancers the best we can so they're prepped and ready for the real world.
• 49:08
  SPEAKER_00: And we want to make sure that we're setting them up for success in in those scenarios.
• 49:12
  SPEAKER_00: And I think it just depends, you know, if if that's if that's the case and we're not singling out the genders in the choreographic experience, then maybe we can all do it this style.
• 49:21
  SPEAKER_00: So for this dance, we're all doing it this style so we can learn that style.
• 49:25
  SPEAKER_00: And then next year we'll do a different dance that's embodying the like another variation of movement quality.
• 49:30
  SPEAKER_00: So we can get all of those checked off and solidified.
• 49:35
  SPEAKER_00: But I know I've been guilty of it, and especially in like a convention setting, which so many dancers do all the time.
• 49:41
  SPEAKER_00: And I think that my approach sometimes does get tend to go from that musical theater perspective, like we said, Paul, where I feel like that, you know, gender is a little bit more like you're male or female in a Broadway show.
• 49:53
  SPEAKER_00: And that's your gender identity most of the time because of tradition.
• 49:57
  SPEAKER_00: Whereas I feel like in concert dance and in com contemporary dance, it's a little bit more fluid.
• 50:03
  SPEAKER_00: We can kind of navigate that in a different approach.
• 50:06
  SPEAKER_00: So I think a lot of the times I naturally gravitate in in that musical theater world, and I've learned from that for sure, but I think it's important to know, to know both.
• 50:16
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 50:17
  SPEAKER_01: And that's just circumstance, right?
• 50:19
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 50:19
  SPEAKER_01: The the educator, the person in charge and leading the kids through just has to take the circumstance, circumstances into perspective and do the best they can.
• 50:30
  SPEAKER_01: That's all we can do.
• 50:31
  SPEAKER_01: Going back to what Leslie said, we just we all have to have humility in trying to adopt this because you're you're likely to make mistakes.
• 50:39
  SPEAKER_01: Navigating this is there's a lot of complexity when you are a product of the older system, which we all are, right?
• 50:48
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 50:48
  SPEAKER_01: What were you gonna say, Paul?
• 50:50
  SPEAKER_04: I was just saying, and there there, I think there are some even real-world applications where I think we've so many dancers have encountered a situation, whether it's in a show or at a competition or for recital, where a dancer is out at the last minute for whatever reason.
• 51:06
  SPEAKER_04: And in the end, it's so much more helpful if you have other dancers in the group who are flexible, who know both sides, who can embody both qualities.
• 51:18
  SPEAKER_04: So again, it it only helps.
• 51:21
  SPEAKER_04: So even if you have an option for the girls or for the boys, have them learn the other one as a practice in the class.
• 51:29
  SPEAKER_04: If you have that freedom of time to do that, amazing.
• 51:33
  SPEAKER_04: And then when those situations arise, you're better equipped and you you you've at least had it in your body.
• 51:39
  SPEAKER_04: And again, it's it's just providing the opportunity for that exposure and that experience.
• 51:44
  SPEAKER_04: That's that's the real benefit.
• 51:46
  SPEAKER_04: You know, what what ends in the ultimate end artistic vision, we we all know is one is one option.
• 51:53
  SPEAKER_04: But there have probably been many other explorations and options that in the long run of a dancer's career were more beneficial and helpful for them as a as a unique individual performer than what ended in the final product.
• 52:07
  SPEAKER_04: And that's still something to acknowledge and celebrate and don't feel defeated, you know, if if your circumstances are limited due to X, Y, Z factors, you can still find ways to create this environment and provide this eclectic, diverse experience for your dancers.
• 52:25
  SPEAKER_03: Well, we've this has flown by, I feel like.
• 52:28
  SPEAKER_03: It has.
• 52:28
  SPEAKER_03: This has been such an amazing conversation.
• 52:30
  SPEAKER_03: And like I mean, I really think we covered everything that we wanted to and more.
• 52:34
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 52:35
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 52:35
  SPEAKER_00: Is there anything else?
• 52:37
  SPEAKER_04: I will say there was actually one thing I wanted to bring up, and it was actually even with the the questions that we were given.
• 52:43
  SPEAKER_04: I think one important thing along the lines of the question of how do we approach this topic in the studio, I think one of the simplest ways is just to watch your language.
• 52:54
  SPEAKER_04: You you never know what your dancers are hearing.
• 52:58
  SPEAKER_04: And I I think one thing I would like to express is just be be wary of the words that you choose.
• 53:04
  SPEAKER_04: Even if it's coming from a good place, when you say, How do we navigate this?
• 53:08
  SPEAKER_04: How do we handle this?
• 53:10
  SPEAKER_04: How do we tackle this?
• 53:12
  SPEAKER_04: Those all imply that this is an obstacle.
• 53:15
  SPEAKER_04: And that can be very damaging for any dancer who hears that and then takes on my authentic true self is causing issues that need to be addressed or tackled or handled.
• 53:28
  SPEAKER_04: And so I think that's just a basic awareness thing, again, we as educators can start to build more awareness on.
• 53:36
  SPEAKER_04: And just try to, again, create a safe space and be be open and honest.
• 53:41
  SPEAKER_04: Uh don't feel like you have to be perfect all the time.
• 53:44
  SPEAKER_04: You can be candid and say, This is my goal to to create the safe space for you.
• 53:49
  SPEAKER_04: So let's check in and see how this is going and understand that this isn't an issue.
• 53:55
  SPEAKER_04: This is me learning how to be a better teacher for you and not you causing problems for everybody.
• 54:03
  SPEAKER_03: I love that.
• 54:04
  SPEAKER_03: That is so important.
• 54:06
  SPEAKER_03: I mean, and even thinking about the the weight of those actual words.
• 54:10
  SPEAKER_03: I mean, tackle.
• 54:11
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 54:11
  SPEAKER_03: Like when you tackle somebody, but like that's a violent, that's violent.
• 54:15
  SPEAKER_03: It's hard, it's harsh.
• 54:17
  SPEAKER_03: Yes, you know.
• 54:18
  SPEAKER_03: So I I think that's that's probably just like you said, great advice for just generally, not just in the dance studio, because it does have an implication that you don't even think about when you just rattle it off.
• 54:27
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, navigate really is a perfect word because we all are navigating this together.
• 54:33
  SPEAKER_01: And to snowball off of how to how to really make that inclusive space and like actions we can take along with language.
• 54:42
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, we all know the the basic remedy trying to remedy is even a bad word, um, right?
• 54:49
  SPEAKER_01: But the the notion that we want to constantly try to use inclusive language.
• 54:55
  SPEAKER_01: So instead of saying, and I'm so guilty of the you guys, me too.
• 54:58
  SPEAKER_01: I'm so guilty of you guys, ladies.
• 55:01
  SPEAKER_01: Um because that's frankly, that's what I grew up with on the receiving end of.
• 55:06
  SPEAKER_01: And I think that you can get creative with it, you know, movers, shakers, dream makers, hello dancers.
• 55:11
  SPEAKER_01: Simple you can.
• 55:13
  SPEAKER_01: And so in in that effect, that's one step.
• 55:16
  SPEAKER_01: The other step that we that we did touch on is pronouns and and being proactive about making space for that before it enters your studio.
• 55:27
  SPEAKER_01: Whatever, whatever your introductory ritual is for a new class, or if you have a new student introduced into an old class or a new season, whatever that is for you, start incorporating pronouns.
• 55:38
  SPEAKER_01: It just makes the space already available to somebody who needs it, that you may not know needs it or wants to explore that.
• 55:46
  SPEAKER_01: And it's it's a huge vulnerability and it's brave on their part to be able to step into that space.
• 55:51
  SPEAKER_01: But if you've already made it and you make it clear that that space is available to them, that's half the battle.
• 55:57
  SPEAKER_00: I'm I'm glad you brought that up, and I'm I'm gonna throw this in there just as a final thing, because um this has kind of been like a recurring discussion as far as pronouns in the judging world, actually.
• 56:08
  SPEAKER_00: And you know, as we as dance educators as well, you know, we don't know these dancers that are that are hitting the stage, and we can glance down at a program and see a name typically, but we also really don't know how they are identifying and what their pronouns pronouns are.
• 56:25
  SPEAKER_00: And majority of the critiques that we are are asked to provide are directed towards the dancer.
• 56:31
  SPEAKER_00: So I think that all of us in the judging world that are are working can be a little bit more cautious of trying to incorporate, you know, hey dancers or you know, all of those the fun, the fun alternatives that you suggested, Jeanette.
• 56:46
  SPEAKER_00: Like, I think we need to just be c it's so hard to break habit.
• 56:50
  SPEAKER_00: It is, and and I think, like you said, we are all navigating this together.
• 56:54
  SPEAKER_00: But I think that that's the best that we can we can do is just you know be cautious of it, familiarize ourselves with different word choice.
• 57:02
  SPEAKER_00: And you know, I I I think that that can definitely be like a a good change in the industry that a lot of teachers will appreciate, and the dancers will as well.
• 57:11
  SPEAKER_00: So just a thought on that as well.
• 57:14
  SPEAKER_01: It's all it's all practice, yeah, 100%.
• 57:17
  SPEAKER_03: And we're dancers, we are used to practicing over and over and over again.
• 57:20
  SPEAKER_03: We do our plas every ballet class, all of us.
• 57:23
  SPEAKER_03: So we can practice this too.
• 57:24
  SPEAKER_00: Practice makes it perfect.
• 57:26
  SPEAKER_00: All right, y'all.
• 57:27
  SPEAKER_00: Well, this was such a wonderful discussion, and I I really, I really think that we brought some light to you know, gender in general and and how to navigate that um in this new world that we're living in 2020, uh, the the revolution for sure.
• 57:41
  SPEAKER_00: So Yeah, what is this?
• 57:42
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, this year has been an interesting one.
• 57:46
  SPEAKER_00: It's a lot.
• 57:46
  SPEAKER_00: But moving into the beautiful 2021 that's ahead of us, we are we're going to incorporate so many proper pronoun usage throughout our our class taking and the judging world and in the class teaching world.
• 58:00
  SPEAKER_00: And you know, I I I think that this is a discussion that we've been really wanting to have on the podcast.
• 58:05
  SPEAKER_03: And we're just waiting for the right time.
• 58:07
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 58:07
  SPEAKER_00: And now is the time for sure.
• 58:10
  SPEAKER_00: So so happy to have y'all on this one.
• 58:12
  SPEAKER_00: And see, y'all, not you guys.
• 58:15
  SPEAKER_01: Y'all that is the yeah, that is the trend.
• 58:20
  SPEAKER_01: It is the trending inclusive genderqueer word.
• 58:23
  SPEAKER_01: Really?
• 58:24
  SPEAKER_01: Y'all, which I love because I say that and now I can really say even from Georgia had it years ago.
• 58:30
  SPEAKER_00: So yeah.
• 58:31
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, we played, we played.
• 58:34
  SPEAKER_00: And you know what?
• 58:35
  SPEAKER_00: Now that I think, and especially how we ended this whole discussion, I feel like that if when I go listen back, I probably said, So happy to have you guys on here at the very top.
• 58:44
  SPEAKER_00: I didn't think you did.
• 58:45
  SPEAKER_00: I didn't.
• 58:46
  SPEAKER_00: I don't think you did.
• 58:46
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, well, that's good.
• 58:47
  SPEAKER_03: I was listening for it.
• 58:49
  SPEAKER_00: You were because I do it.
• 58:51
  SPEAKER_01: She was ready to catch it.
• 58:52
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and you know, if I did, then I corrected myself by the end of this discussion.
• 58:57
  SPEAKER_01: But you also practice music.
• 58:59
  SPEAKER_00: Exactly.
• 58:59
  SPEAKER_00: And how it's a new lesson.
• 59:01
  SPEAKER_00: Exactly.
• 59:01
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, and what a great lesson as teachers to correct ourselves in the moment because you're just leading by example.
• 59:07
  SPEAKER_00: Totally.
• 59:08
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 59:09
  SPEAKER_00: Well, what we typically do in all of our episodes, if you've listened, and I know that you are new, but we love to end it with any final thoughts that you may have that you'd like to, you know, just lead us out with, uh, final things to say to the listeners, to any dancers out there uh regarding the topic or just anything in general.
• 59:26
  SPEAKER_00: So feel free to lead us out.
• 59:29
  SPEAKER_01: Going directly, you know, segueing from that exchange that we just had, uh, I think it's important to stay introspective with yourself as you're as you are creating, teaching, and and going through your your career in the dance world.
• 59:47
  SPEAKER_01: Stay introspective, ask yourself the whys and and adjust.
• 59:51
  SPEAKER_01: And to stay active in being able to practice these things, set small goals and and correct yourself when the moments arise and make uh the micro adjustments.
• 1:00:03
  SPEAKER_01: They are really, they're micro adjustments.
• 1:00:05
  SPEAKER_01: So it's it's just all about being in tune and and outwardly practicing and and leading by example.
• 1:00:13
  SPEAKER_01: And I think that we all are capable and beautiful things.
• 1:00:17
  SPEAKER_04: Oh, and I think echoing that, my mantra for 2020 for myself and for every person who's come to me with an issue regarding any of the multitude of topics that have come up in 2020, is just remain teachable.
• 1:00:32
  SPEAKER_04: I think that's the the greatest mindset and tool we can apply to ourselves as educators, as dancers, as humans, is remain open to expanding your awareness.
• 1:00:47
  SPEAKER_04: Because no matter what, you're aware that's I think that is a factor of any dancer's journey is you begin the begin the mind-body connection, your awareness of space, your awareness of movement and how your body interprets it, but also just awareness in general of who you are as a person, as a performer, and understand that that's only going to benefit your journey.
• 1:01:07
  SPEAKER_04: So it's something to celebrate.
• 1:01:09
  SPEAKER_04: And although at times it may be confusing or challenging or counterintuitive, we can celebrate the journey together and know that there's space for everything.
• 1:01:19
  SPEAKER_04: That's one of the most beautiful things about the dance world.
• 1:01:23
  SPEAKER_04: There is a pocket for every culture and subculture and expression.
• 1:01:28
  SPEAKER_04: And if you're a young dancer listening to this, if you don't see it, be it.
• 1:01:33
  SPEAKER_04: You you can take it on and give yourself that freedom to fully express it.
• 1:01:38
  SPEAKER_04: And through like law of attraction, you're just gonna bring more people who vibe with you and look at you.
• 1:01:45
  SPEAKER_04: I mean, every style started somewhere with one person.
• 1:01:48
  SPEAKER_04: So celebrate that journey.
• 1:01:52
  SPEAKER_00: Thanks so much for joining us for episode 35.
• 1:01:55
  SPEAKER_00: You can find our guests on social media.
• 1:01:57
  SPEAKER_00: Call at Paul Scarlet and Jeanette at Jeanette Able.
• 1:02:01
  SPEAKER_03: Make sure you subscribe on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Google Podcasts, and Amazon Podcast so you don't miss out on our upcoming episodes releasing every Thursday throughout the season.
• 1:02:10
  SPEAKER_00: To all my studios out there cutting for the upcoming competition season.
• 1:02:14
  SPEAKER_00: If you are looking for a new team jacket for your studio, be sure to check out Jake Nothing.
• 1:02:18
  SPEAKER_00: Their fashion forward catalog of team gear is customized around your style and your brand.
• 1:02:23
  SPEAKER_00: If you are in need of chalkers, jackets, sports bras, or even leggings, Jake Nothing has you covered.
• 1:02:28
  SPEAKER_00: Head to their website now at Jake Nothing.com to order your Team Gear for the season.
• 1:02:33
  SPEAKER_03: Season two is in full swing with new topics, great advice, and amazing interviews.
• 1:02:37
  SPEAKER_03: Coming up in the next few weeks, topics include self-taped advice for virtual submissions, how to compete in 2021, and guest choreography.
• 1:02:45
  SPEAKER_00: Thanks so much for joining us.
• 1:02:47
  SPEAKER_00: Until next time, keep dancing!